July 14, 2025 • 42 mins
On today’s show, John Heil and I discuss the seventh episode in season two of Andor, “Messenger.” We discuss an essential moment for Syril Karn, an upgrade for the burgeoning rebellion, and an escalation on Ghorman. Pull up a chair, grab your favorite mug, and have some Coffee With Kenobi.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Tom Kane, the voice of Yoda and Star
Wars the Clone Wars, and you're listening to coffee with
Kenobi with Dan Z. This is the podcast you are
looking for. Where have you been away?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Was on a repair.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Let's go get them back. You'll check in.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Yet things are getting any organized around you.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's about.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
That's what I came here for.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
That is what I've been trying to do since I
got here. That is what you told me you wanted.
And now now there's evidence I have to beg for.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Most beings carry the things that shape them, they carry
the past, but some, very few, your pilot, They're gathering
as they go. There's a purpose to it. I know you.
I know how deeply you believe in what we're doing.
(00:53):
We're not Luting's puppets anymore.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
This is James Arnold Taylor and you're listening to coffee
with Kenobi.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I have a good feeling about this. We are back friends.
It is time to talk about the next episode of
and Or. This is the seventh episode in season two.
The episode is titled Messenger. I am your host of
Coffee with Kenobi. Dan's are and I am joined today
my returning guest. He has been with us for many
(01:24):
episodes as we look at season two of and Or
John Hile, John, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Thank you so much. Dan. It's a privilege to be
here once again. I'm really looking forward to talking about
episode seven with you.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I am too, John. This is for my money, and
I've said this from the get go. Seven, eight, and
nine are the peak of Star Wars storytelling. Sure, absolutely,
these three are tremendous. And it kicks off with the Messengers,
So let's let's start it off. Do you have one
word to describe messenger and overall thoughts on the episode?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
You know, I do? I do? And this time I'm
actually kind of happy with my word. I'm not usually
happy with my word, but but this time I am
and that word is awakening. And and my my rationale
is this throughout this episode, which which is just sort
(02:19):
of a building of pressure, if you will. A lot
of episodes can be described that way, but in this
instance it as to Gorman, as to the sort of
the evil of the empire itself, and even as to Cassion.
(02:39):
You see these realizations in characters start to happen. I mean,
everybody seems to start grasping the scope that or in
many instances, just the how bad things are about to
get or how they may get. And as to Cassie
(03:02):
and perhaps his level of importance, I mean, you see
sort of the hair on the back of the neck
of multiple characters all happening through this episode, and I
love it.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I love that too. That's an excellent intro. I'm not
sure about my word. I like the idea of you
basically you didn't say this, but you're basically saying it's like,
take this episode. This is the episode where you take
the soda bottle and you shake it and you're about
to open it up because things are about to erupt.
(03:36):
But my word for this is frightening. This is a
frightening episode because when you really dial down into the
nuance of what is happening on Gore with the Gorman
people or the Gormans with the Gore people, it is
so incredibly scary how the Empire is taking things that
(03:58):
aren't happening and making them as a license for them
to continue to invade and take over. We see that
part of Gad says to Dadra, Look, they've decided there's
no substitute for this mineral. So sorry, Gorman's you're done
for it. We're just going to take it over. This
plant's going to be a husk. So they create these
(04:19):
fake bombings and agitators, and there's so much manipulation going
on in the transverse that with Cassian still being his
most and or stubborn self, but there's always a reason
for what he does. He still has a hard time
believing in certain aspects of things. He keeps things very
(04:41):
close to the vest, and it's understandable because of the
depth and breadth of his character. But there are certain episodes,
there are certain moments in this episode, John, where I
think most creatives would would would just do anything to
have the five minutes of dialogue that is present in
different sequences, and this it's just it's an another It's brilliant.
(05:01):
It's a brilliant episode, it really is.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I love how it how it starts. Okay, now we're
bb Y two, Yes, go right to Yavin Bass almost
fully developed. Now we recognize everything. It's it's it's a
you know, put a big smile on my face and
you know, oh, here's Wilman back and and so that's
(05:26):
a happy sort of reunion with him. You you interestingly
see now on Yavi and how everybody lives and sort
of where they live. And it isn't just the temple
temples really that we always think of. No, that doesn't
make any sense. No, there have to be all these
areas where people actually uh live and then go to
(05:48):
work and do all these other things. And so we
see all that, we have a tender moment with Cassie
and and and and bix that and you find out
he's kind of injured, just sort of the initial setup
of yab and four. I love that as a start
to all this because now a year has passed.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I agree, And I was going to ask you about that.
This has come up a few times, but every arc
is there's a year between, and I felt, for the
most part that's more sort of a decorative pronunciation, like
there's really not a lot of evidence here. There sort
of is because Cassian has been hurt, we don't see
how he's been hurt. And at first, plus you might say, well,
(06:30):
they're just thrown it in there just as a plot device,
but it's not really important. But it is important because
it ends up being sort of a crisis of faith
to a degree. I don't think we're expected to believe
that Cassian has to believe in the force. It's really
that one of the only times the forces mentioned in
this entire series, which I think is pretty cool because
it still holds our attention. But the sequence when he
(06:53):
and Vix meet with that force healer Bicks sets him
up too. I mean, this is the first one I'm
going to bring up in the episode, and he is
not interested in this. He thinks it's a joke. He
thinks it's a gimmick. But then after the conversation that
they have when Cassie and leaves, he is, you know,
I'll let you know. He runs away. He does basically
(07:15):
run away, and Vic says you scared him, and she says,
I'm sorry, and she says that's not easy to do.
So what is it? Do you think that he's afraid of?
I mean, she kind of alludes to it, but what
do you think?
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Well, I think, well, my short answer is I don't know.
I think it's interesting the context though, if I may
go back just a moment for that, I could you
know Wilman is basically saying, hey, Luthen wants to know
if you're ready to work so it shows that they
(07:50):
haven't done anything for Luthen now for a long time.
Clearly there have been no missions. They've just been there.
They had their sort of at the end of the
last arc where they had the wonderful little scene where
you know, Biggs is able to get revenge, and that apparently,
(08:11):
as far as we know, is all they've done for
Luthen in a year or so. So now Willman shows
up and all this suddenly putting pressure on.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Him to to.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Do more, and and then you have what what you
just described. So is there a little First of all,
I think Cassian really doesn't believe in the Force. He
seems more like in the Han solo camp of all us,
it's a bunch of who what are you talking about?
(08:44):
And of course you mentioned the Force healer. We we
kind of call her that. That word force is never
said in the episode. It's just some creepy person who's
in the cafeteria and people are lining up to talk
to her, and he thinks it's it's blown me. So
he kind of resents the idea of it. I don't know,
(09:05):
do you Is there something in your mind that it
kind of goes back to his childhood or something like that.
That because because he isn't just sort of that he's
agnostic to it. He seems out and out hostile to it.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I Agnostic is probably a good word, my guess, is Cassie,
And being the guy that he is, he's not a
big fan of fate because for the most part, besides bicks,
he's had a pretty rough life. I mean, he's been
you know, incarcerated and uh, chased down, and he's he's
been you know, he's killed people. He's been attacked, his
(09:42):
mom died, his wife was tortured almost to death by
the Empire. He's constantly on the run. He really can't
put roots down anywhere. He has no reason to believe
in the force or anything that would be be like
karma or or positive or faith filled. And I also
think he's very resistant to the idea of being someone
(10:04):
greater than the sum of his parts, because he's not
the first of all, he's pretty deferential to that. I mean,
he hates the Empire. He knows he's good at what
he does, real good at what he does, better than most.
But I get the sense of casting is not the
sort of guy that would like to stick out his
chest and say I'm the hero, right, I agree.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I think he's more mission centered, right, Like, if he
agrees to do it, I'm gonna go get it done.
And then if there's another one and I want to
do it, I'll do that. But the sort of, at
least if this in this point of his development, it's
it that the greater like the existence of the force,
(10:52):
someone else doesn't matter, and sort of the greater struggle
to him is maybe not yet as fully developed either.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And also there's this interesting dichotomy between you know, he
really wants Woman to tell him where he's been, Wilman
is incredibly resistant to revealing anything, doesn't even address it
at all. And then so Cassian's like, we're good here,
things are happening, but Woman is skeptical because Woman is
(11:24):
still very much team Luthen, Cassie. And I think as
much as he respects Luthen in his heart of hearts,
I still think he is he doesn't. He has a
hard time trusting people. I mean, I don't know that
he was crazy with how things were handled with Bicks earlier,
and you know, him being mad that that Luthen went
and visited Bis when he was gone, when Cassile was gone,
(11:48):
and then Cassian's whole like, what do you mean I
can leave the rebellion if I went to but Draythan
is that his name, Draythan Dodonna?
Speaker 3 (11:58):
And uh uh isn't it dray Brayden.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yes, I don't know why. I said, yes, Raven Draven, Yes, yes, yes.
He says, you can't just come if he says, if
I have to decide to tell you when I'm coming
and going that I'm out, And he said, well, that
time is coming soon. So it's so great because they know,
you know, I think earlier woman it's either women or
(12:25):
Cassian says, you know, do you want to fight or
do you want to win? I think in that moment,
Cassian sees winning is having an army assembling to fight
the empire, because you do need an army to fight
the empire. But Luthen wants to fight. Initially, Cassian was,
you know, famously or infamously known as spitting in the
Empire's food, not really having a big impact, right, but
(12:50):
being an insurgent, and some are almost like a bee
or an ant at the Empire's picnic. But now with
this army, it's this huge machine and Casting is a
part of that, and he likes that. But Luthan doesn't trust.
You know, Women's like, you know, there's new faces all
the time, there's new people coming and going all the time.
How do you know who to trust? It's it's so
(13:13):
great because again, this is like you've got on Mathma,
You've got Woman, You've got Luthan, you've got Sagarera, You've
got all these different people, these different pilosshis and we
all want the same thing. We have very different beliefs
in how to make it happen. It's just so it's
so much more complicated and so much smarter than I
could possibly explain it well.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
And I think I think you you hit on a
couple of really good points, which is, first of all,
Casting wants to have it on his own terms. He
wants to come and go as he pleases. He drives
Draven nuts because that's that's security.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
It's not security.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
This is not what we do. If you want protection
of yeah, and you've you've got to we got to
know where you are on this right. But but also
the do you want to fight or do you want
to win? Line? It shows that he is in my
mind pretty in on the Yaven base idea, because what
(14:09):
is it doing. It's still building up, building up, building up,
building up, and that's what we are doing, and we'll
still have to do for a while. So all these
little things you want to do, cut it out. Let's
just as you said, let's just continue building our army.
So he's kind of all over the place right now.
I think he is.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
He is, and I just love that because it's just
this is just such a much more. It makes me
honestly want to learn more and refresh my memory on
not only the United States history, but world history, because
things like this have happened all throughout the globe, you know,
for hundreds of years, for centuries, and it's not so
(14:51):
cut and dry. The humanity gets in the way, pride
gets in the way, fear gets in the way, and
then it all boils down to what do we need
to do, how are we going to do it? Who
needs to know? And what information I'm reading to withhold
like communications seems to be and like there's even a
(15:11):
great moment where Willman and Luthen when they're back on Gorman,
they have to they they make a big production of
talking about getting their com set right, You've got it.
We have to be able to communicate first, and that
lack of communication sometimes is what can can run things
through a convoluted space and make things harder. But then again,
(15:32):
what are your other choices? I don't even know if
I'm making any sense. But then more I talk about
the Moor, I'm just like, wow, this is so confusing,
and I love that.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I think it's it's isn't that great that it's so
complicated because you know, you mentioned world history. I've read
books about the Revolutionary War and it's it's not the
sound by all of us know it has I mean,
it's years and they were shady characters, and there was
this thing didn't go right in that thing didn't go right,
(16:00):
and it's just there's just a lot to that, and
and so it makes this show that much more rich,
that more realistic, because it you could put together a
sound bite about the rebel alliance and but through this,
(16:21):
you know, it's portrayed in such a great way that
it transcends that, which is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Absolutely So, undoubtedly that was a really long tangent. But
I think we're talking about because there's there's just it's again,
it's very, very rich, and I agree with you, what
a what a great thing that we have this, that
we had this complicated, well thought out, well crafted story.
What's what's a major point you have on your list
(16:49):
that you'd like to chat about.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Well, there's one of my favorite scenes is in this episode,
and it is. I mean, there were a couple they
were right back to back that are among my favorite
and they're just conversations, but I just I just love her.
And I'm gonna smush two together and I'll try not
to talk too long. But the first is it's a podcast.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
You can talk as long as you want.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Part of Gus counseling Dedra on you know as and
you already brought it up the whole Hey, it's about
to happen discussion and he he sees how uncomfortable she is,
And isn't that amazing that Dedra is now uncomfortable with this? Dedra,
who herself suggested that you need an insurgency you can
(17:41):
count on to do the wrong thing, one of the
indirect architects of all this. But now it's it's coming,
something bad is coming, and she's visibly nervous. Yes, And
so he counts. Well, there's that counsels her that hey,
(18:02):
this is going to benefit the ISB and you personally
and everybody knows what a good job you're doing. And
and he had it just it plays to who Dedra is.
You can tell how well he knows her. And she
responds kind of to that, but you can tell she's
she's still nervous, you know, She's like, well, you know,
(18:25):
now now they have weapons, and he said, we'll recounting
on it. Uh. It almost looked like to me for
a moment, it's almost like her character had had changed
a little bit. You know, she is so jaded normally
so cold.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
That is it?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Is it just because she's there that she's a little
more skittish. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Oh then go ahead, No, no, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Then right after it, Uh, then you have Cyril show up,
probably more confident that we have than we've ever seen
him ever. He's he's a different dude at this point,
and he comes strutting in. He shows up looking for Dedra.
(19:14):
He basically challenges a an imperial officer with no problem,
like where is she?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Is she back there?
Speaker 3 (19:21):
You know, my gosh, you have the guts to do
something like that even recently.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
No, he did not.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
He's hot stuff in his own mind, now, I think interesting.
And then they have their conversation, which is one of
my favorite from from the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I agree, that's actually the conversation I allude to the
beginning of the show. Yeah, one of the best. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
And he she just very coldly, very plainly, gives him
the party line, well, we found evidence of outside agitators.
And and he knows that she's lying to his face,
and he knows it. He's been there, he's been on
the ground, he's been talking to everybody. And so he
(20:07):
accuses her of keeping him in the dark, and and
then goes ahead and telling he even uses the word nonsense,
this is nonsense. You know what am I doing here?
What are we doing here? In other words, what is
going to happen? And and then so already he's you
(20:27):
can tell he is fearing the worst of some kind,
whatever it the worst is. And then she tells him
to go home and pack, confirming it's set up to him.
And uh, you know, she's like trying to trying to
(20:51):
play to what what he has heretofore always responded to
by saying, we'll be rewarded, we'll be together and that
really that's all Cyril's ever wanted ever, right, And so
he she knows him so well, She says that, but
he's evolved past that. He's He says, for what, what
(21:16):
have we accomplished? And then she tells him to be careful,
very sternly, and I love the long pause then and
he says me, it's just it's just such a and
you probably have another ten minutes to talk about it,
because on so many levels it's so powerful. Now he
(21:39):
can't trust her. Now he thinks the entire reason for
his being there was a sham. He feels like he
was a pawns don't know that he feels that yet.
Well well maybe not, maybe not as a as a pawn,
but you the look on his face.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I would say, the word you're looking for is betrayed. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
all right, stop to start the clock. We'll see what
I have to say. I have a lot to say,
because this is my favorite conversation of the entire episode,
followed by mon Mathema's conversation with the Senator, although for
very different reasons. Sure, what I think is great about
(22:18):
this is that the Veneer data is wrapped tighter than
her hair, and I think I'm confident that that is
one of the reasons for the hairstyles she has, because
she's so uptight and focused laser laser myopically focused on
ascending in her career, which is what part of Gus
(22:41):
ascribes to to give her a peace of mind. The
fact that he keeps saying, what are we doing here?
What is the point? I think when she kisses him,
that's one of the most important scenes in the entire series,
either season, because that's I feel like that kisses multifacet one.
(23:02):
It's a desperate attempt to try to assuage him to
give up this crusade, because he is a crusader through
and to dissuade him from this crusade, remind him that
he loves her and that they can be together. And
she doesn't strike me as someone who's very who's very
(23:23):
shows her love language is not touch but we'll say that, yeah,
But in that brief moment, he's so he like literally
is shocked, he shakes. It's a great bit of acting,
but it's also I think desperation and fear. I think
in that brief moment we see she loves him in
(23:44):
her own way. She does not want to lose him,
and she doesn't want him to die. She knows when
everybody's showing up, what's gonna happen. He's the kind of guy.
He doesn't sit on the sidelines. He is someone that
gets involved. Cyril gets involved when he thinks he's got
the right mission. And we'll see the later of course,
in the series, he is pedaled to the metal Man.
(24:07):
It doesn't matter if smoke he has chased him. He's
getting in his trans am. That's a nice little seventies
reference for everyone. So he it's just so rich because
there's so much anger and frustration because he realizes he's
starting to realize he's a pawn. He's starting to realize
that she is keeping things from him, which I think
he's known all along, but he hasn't really fully lend
(24:29):
into And when he goes to talk with the leader
of the resistance, whose name is suddenly escaping me right now,
do you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Well, he he talked to her his daughter.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, very very briefly, and she slaps him, Yes, she
slaps him. It's Carl Rylands is the father.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Right, And I don't remember her name.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I've got I've got Star Wars dot Com pulled up
right here, I'm fro out. Here we go. It's enza
and ends of slaps him. Why do you think ends
of slaps?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Well, I think he presents to her like I have
an idea to get us out of this before it
gets too serious or however he phrased it, right, and
it's I think she and most of the others with
deception of her father, and we can talk about that
at this point. Who seems to be ahead of the
(25:27):
rest of them in just where this is might be heading.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, one, right, And I think she I think she's mad.
I think she feels like he's lying to her. I
feel like I feel like she thinks he's a part
of it. He's not to try to get her to
like exactly, yeah, get away, we gotta get away. I
(25:53):
can get us out of this. She slaps, and she
thinks he's lying to her.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah, like you're trying to get us to quit.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
You're trying to get us the kid to be to
be killed.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Right, or at least to knock it off. And we're
not going to knock it off. We're we're the Gore
and we have a we have a point to be
made here. And and that's right. I mean, he just
doesn't have the credibility with her that he thinks he does.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
No, and and not to mention the fact that Cyril
has traded in uh eighty, his overbearing mother for someone
who is controlling him in a very different way, in
a much more dangerous way. Yeah, and and that's you know,
that's that's a that's hard. I really think in his
(26:38):
heart of hearts, and I've thought this from the beginning,
he thinks he's doing the right thing. He thinks he's
fighting for the right side. But he's saying, hey, there's
no there's no demolition, there was no explosion. That's not true.
We're the empire. Why are we acting like this? Why
are we doing this to these people? I think that
when he when he works with the resistance, Enza and
(26:59):
her dad Carl, he sees them as people. He's starting
to see, look, insurgents, people who against the empire are
not just these little scavengers or monsters like these are
human beings. What are we doing to these people? I
think he's started to be all for these people. I
think he's starting to understand the plight of the Gormans
(27:21):
in what the Empire is doing, and then seeing that
his wife, who's put him in this position, is using him.
That that's the carbonation, that's the fizz you and I
talked about. It's it's just such good storytelling. It's marvelous.
(27:41):
It's absolutely marvelous. We haven't seen anything like this in
Star Wars. We haven't. And that's not an insult. It's
just it's a different way to tell a story, a
more sophisticated way to tell story. This is this is
the I think I made said this earlier when you
were on Well, this is the closest we've ever come
to Charles Dickens writing. So Star Wars related because the
(28:01):
complexity of the characters. And if you don't believe me,
they need to read a Tale two Cities because, believe me,
it's got the and or vibes.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, I hadn't. I think you had brought that up.
But being more specific about a Tale of two Cities,
I see the point. I do. Let's let's the next scene. Yeah,
we're into the Senate and I know you want to
talk about that that conversation. Let me just talk with
you about a little snippet before the conversation, yeah, which
(28:30):
I just loved. And it's it's an added level of
realism to the society that we get in and or
that you kind of don't get anywhere else. And that's
I mean, uh mon, Mathma arrives. You know, you have
the whole thing with the driver and you can't trust
him and all that stuff. And if she's walking in
(28:50):
there's all these news reports. It's like it's it's it's
sort of a cornucopia of news reports. You hear yes
all and they're in the background. It's so almost like
the soundtrack at that time. It's just a beautiful touch
all different channels, if you will, about the terrible thing
that happened. I'm going thing and things, thing being the
(29:16):
day before attack on a naval base, and just in general,
all the things the Gore are doing, and it's just
all propaganda. So it just shows you very subtly and
just for a few seconds, like what everyone on corriscont
is hearing in their twenty four hour news cycle. I
say twenty four hours. I don't know what the orbital
(29:37):
cycle of coursint is, but you in a day don't.
But It shows how an empire has to operate, right,
You have to keep pounding the message in place that
whatever you hear, you know, we're the good guys and
(29:59):
these others are the bad guys, and and it's it's
just a great little touch about how the empire does
that at least on course.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yes, yes, yes, well the center is Dassy Orrin. He
is the He is the senator for the Gorman people.
And you see here his fear. He realizes, you know,
I wish we could go back in time. I wish
we could do something and see this happening. He knows
(30:32):
his people are about to be exterminated. He just has
a sense. I mean, everybody can see it. This is
the great purpose of this entire season. My Mathma's concerned.
And when the moment when he says to her, he
thanks her for her grace. There's another term he uses
that that I did not write down. But grace was
(30:52):
the one to do.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
You have it, he said, constant courage.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Courage, yes, and the fact that she is fighting the
good fight and trying to help the Gorman people. And
he knows like he's in a place where he can't root,
he can't vote against Palpatine because that's that is bad.
That's not going to work. That is not going to work.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
And it's startling because you know, again the emotion, what
is at risk? What is a plague? And this this
does such a great job of building to this really
scary situation that we know is going to happen, and
I feel like it's really represented well. Earlier in the episode,
when the resistance of Gorman is meeting, You've got Drina,
(31:37):
You've got ends, You've got I'm trying to think of
the the actor in the Gorman front that is the
most outspoken. He's he's a larger man. I'm talking about yes, Uh.
Lazine Lazine. Lazine, as we have seen him, has been
a bit of an outspoken almost a somewhat of a bully,
(32:01):
but here in this beautiful moment, he's the voice of reason.
He tries to instill some patriotic pride, basically saying, you know,
we're the gore. You know, do we attack, do we
laid down, whether we come out with rifles and we
put rose pedals on the road, we are we have
to remember we are at the core because what they
(32:22):
keep doing is making it to such a way that
they're fighting against themselves, Carl Q saying, you know, we've
let them get under our skin. And that's another thing
that they have done. It's like they're the ants. I
don't know why I keep using bugs as a metaphor.
I was just outside, maybe that's why. And they're using
that to pinpoint. They've been rattled and shaken to the
(32:47):
degree that they've turned on one another, and the Empire
is doing everything they can. It's scary. This is scary stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Well, and in that conversation it becomes clear to me
that Caro, that's Rylands, that sort of the elder statesman
of the group. He's arguing for more peaceful agitation at
that point, and everybody else is like, beside themselves, this
has gotten us nowhere. It's not going to get us anywhere.
(33:14):
He seems to grasp that they're being manipulated into action,
that the provocation is what the empire is hoping for,
so you know, And and immediately before that, when the
Gorman Senator is speaking to Mont he uses the term
(33:34):
point of no returns. This all goes to the idea
that every everybody who is truly in the know, not
the regular citizen of the empire. But everybody who's truly in.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
The know.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Is just knows this is something bad is going to happen.
This is not this is not good, and it's already
probably gone too far.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
It's also an example is that, like to say to
my student's show, don't tell. This is show, don't tell storytelling.
They're not spelling it out there there, there, there, while
we're seeing these diplomatic solutions are not working, we see
what's going on with you. Hav and forth, rebellion taking shape,
cassing and sort of fighting within himself a little bit,
(34:21):
and then Bick's lovingly pushing him to embrace who he is.
You know, you're more than just a pilot, You're more
than a soldier. Embrace this part of self. There's so
many lovely things. I don't know I have anything specific,
because the main things we pointed out are great. Casting
goes back, he he meets the clerk at the hotel
(34:43):
who kind of winkingly shows, hey, I recognize you, dude,
I know what's going on here. And then it kind
of ends abruptly. And this is another example of why
I wish this scheme out once a week instead of
three a week. Yeah, because the way they could have
built this, Ben's intention here astronomically important and incredible. Like again,
(35:07):
this is it's not hyperbole, but we're not going to
see storytelling like this for a long time, and it's
just so beautifully done. I mean, I'm ready to give
my letter grade. But if there's certain things you want.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
To talk about, by all means, there's one more thing.
But let me agree with you first that I say
this not sadly no, but I don't we'll ever see
Star Wars like it will surpass this. I think we
agree right now, and over the past few months we've
seen and I'm lucky enough to re examine some of
(35:37):
this stuff with you. I'm honored to see the best
I mean, Star Wars, far better than I could have
ever imagined that we would see.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Agreed.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
The one other thing I wanted to say or ask
you about. Yeah, when after the whole fource Heeler discussion. Sure,
and it seems clear that cassie AND's shoulder is starting
to feel better and he and Vix are talking. They
have a long scene, Yeah, discussing it. You go through
his fear and everything. Actually, no, I'm getting that wrong.
(36:10):
It's it's at the end of the scene with the
Force Healer and Bix, and the Force Healer says, you know,
he's basically said, is saying, I feel like he's he's well,
let me let me write down like he's destined to
be somewhere. He's supposed to be somewhere.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
A messenger.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
He's a message, yeah, a messenger, and then says there
is some place he needs to be. And then he
asked her, well he have you known him for a
long time, and she says I I don't remember a
time when I didn't know him. And then the Force
Healer says, well, maybe you're You're the place he needs
to be. There, there's a moment there that kind of
(36:53):
drags a little bit out where the camera just focuses
on Bis after that is set, and normally that would
be maybe happy news, but for her, she's not happy.
She looks sad.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
I thought that was brilliant because it seemed to me
that Bix knows better.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Yeah, she's so she knows better than this Force healer here. Yeah,
which is weird, Which is complicated, and I hadn't thought
of it that way until you just explained it. I
remember thinking Okay, how can I make sense of this?
How is she the place room? She's certainly someone who
guides him, and she helps him to heal here. He
doesn't get a shoulder fixed without her encouraging this to
(37:40):
happen or facilitating this to happen. She has been there
for him and she helps to keep him grounded. Who
knows if he even stays in this rebellion without her?
But I don't know. I need to think about that
some more, because you're right, she does feel differently about it.
At least she actively about it. Is we'll talk about
(38:01):
next week.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
She You can tell she she buys into the notion
that he needs to be somewhere.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
And I see doubt and sadness on her face if
the with her is where he's supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah, because she knows that she ultimately is likely going
to hold him back because he's just gonna worry about her.
But yet it doesn't keep him from doing these missions,
you know what I mean? But I don't know. It's
a little, it's it's I don't know. It's a bit
of a head scratcher, isn't it. Yeah? But I wouldn't
have it any other way, I really wouldn't listening to
(38:40):
coffee with Knoby.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
You are with Danzi. The podcast you're looking for this is.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I love that so much. Well, John, as long as
you certainly give me a lot to think about. But
I want to know what your letter grade is for
a messenger. Well, I.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Takes no great shakes to understand. I give this an
A based on I mean, and so much of it
is his dialogue in this episode. But it's all so
important and all so interesting, and all such the benefit
of what they've built built up over the original first
season and the first six episodes of this season that
(39:29):
every time there is an important discussion, there's all this
backstory check and all these things that go into it.
It makes it just fascinating. And so I give it
an A.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, this isn't a plus. I mean, again, as we've
said this entire episode, good luck finding a better well
told story. And there's no action in it. There's no fighting,
there's no thrill, there's no suspense. There's just ten And
this is a very talky one. This I'm trying to
(40:04):
think of the guy who wrote this social network. He
did the West Wing.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Was the Oh yes, I'm talking about I do, and
his snappy dialogue is his thing.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
It's his thing, and he advances the plot. You're completely
compelled by the conversation. Gee whiz. I know I could
look it up if I only had access to a
Google machine. But you know, they're just live podcasts are recording.
But that's what it's like, right that. That is what
it is like. It's it's incredibly authentic. It's compelling. You
(40:36):
care so much about what is happening with these characters
because of the Christmas of the dialogue, the performances, and
just sort of how it works, how it works together. Alan,
Aaron Sorkin, Aaron Sorkin, is that was great? This is
the Aaron Sorkin level of dialogue where you're completely compelled
(40:57):
and it's only going to get better. Friends, It's only
going to get better, John, it always gets better when
I get to talk to you, buddy. I hope you've
had a great summer. I've certainly enjoyed chatting with you
about this. I'd love to have you back on any
time to talk about more episodes of and Or. Is
it still true that you are waiting in the coffee
with Knobe Bunker for messages to come your way from
(41:20):
our listeners.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
Well, I threw you sure great, happy to talk to
anyone about and Or, And you know, I should say,
just as something you alluded to before, it's kind of
too bad the way these were packaged and the way
they came out bundled the way they are. I think
(41:42):
the time between episodes, when it's sort of in your
brain and your brain is working on them, would have
been very valuable. It's nice that we can go back
now and go through that together, but most people didn't
didn't get that benefit, and I think that's kind of
too bad.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I very much agree, and that's why we have these
conversations like this, because we want to let it marinate
and so that we can really bring it to the forefront,
because there's as much as we've talked about, there's still
so much more to come.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
or Lucasfilm Limited. It is intended for entertainment and informational
purposes only. The official Star Wars website can be found
at www dot star Wars dot com. Star Wars, all names, sounds,
and any other Star Wars related items are registered trademarks
and or copyrights of Disney and their respective trademark and
copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the
(42:35):
intellectual property of copy with Kenobi. Unless otherwise indicated, this
is the podcast you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
There's no one here off
This is Tom Kane, the voice of Yoda and Star
Wars the Clone Wars, and you're listening to coffee with
Kenobi with Dan Z. This is the podcast you are
looking for. Where have you been away?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Was on a repair.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Let's go get them back. You'll check in.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Yet things are getting any organized around you.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's about.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
That's what I came here for.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
That is what I've been trying to do since I
got here. That is what you told me you wanted.
And now now there's evidence I have to beg for.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Most beings carry the things that shape them, they carry
the past, but some, very few, your pilot, They're gathering
as they go. There's a purpose to it. I know you.
I know how deeply you believe in what we're doing.
(00:53):
We're not Luting's puppets anymore.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
This is James Arnold Taylor and you're listening to coffee
with Kenobi.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I have a good feeling about this. We are back friends.
It is time to talk about the next episode of
and Or. This is the seventh episode in season two.
The episode is titled Messenger. I am your host of
Coffee with Kenobi. Dan's are and I am joined today
my returning guest. He has been with us for many
(01:24):
episodes as we look at season two of and Or
John Hile, John, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Thank you so much. Dan. It's a privilege to be
here once again. I'm really looking forward to talking about
episode seven with you.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I am too, John. This is for my money, and
I've said this from the get go. Seven, eight, and
nine are the peak of Star Wars storytelling. Sure, absolutely,
these three are tremendous. And it kicks off with the Messengers,
So let's let's start it off. Do you have one
word to describe messenger and overall thoughts on the episode?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
You know, I do? I do? And this time I'm
actually kind of happy with my word. I'm not usually
happy with my word, but but this time I am
and that word is awakening. And and my my rationale
is this throughout this episode, which which is just sort
(02:19):
of a building of pressure, if you will. A lot
of episodes can be described that way, but in this
instance it as to Gorman, as to the sort of
the evil of the empire itself, and even as to Cassion.
(02:39):
You see these realizations in characters start to happen. I mean,
everybody seems to start grasping the scope that or in
many instances, just the how bad things are about to
get or how they may get. And as to Cassie
(03:02):
and perhaps his level of importance, I mean, you see
sort of the hair on the back of the neck
of multiple characters all happening through this episode, and I
love it.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I love that too. That's an excellent intro. I'm not
sure about my word. I like the idea of you
basically you didn't say this, but you're basically saying it's like,
take this episode. This is the episode where you take
the soda bottle and you shake it and you're about
to open it up because things are about to erupt.
(03:36):
But my word for this is frightening. This is a
frightening episode because when you really dial down into the
nuance of what is happening on Gore with the Gorman
people or the Gormans with the Gore people, it is
so incredibly scary how the Empire is taking things that
(03:58):
aren't happening and making them as a license for them
to continue to invade and take over. We see that
part of Gad says to Dadra, Look, they've decided there's
no substitute for this mineral. So sorry, Gorman's you're done
for it. We're just going to take it over. This
plant's going to be a husk. So they create these
(04:19):
fake bombings and agitators, and there's so much manipulation going
on in the transverse that with Cassian still being his
most and or stubborn self, but there's always a reason
for what he does. He still has a hard time
believing in certain aspects of things. He keeps things very
(04:41):
close to the vest, and it's understandable because of the
depth and breadth of his character. But there are certain episodes,
there are certain moments in this episode, John, where I
think most creatives would would would just do anything to
have the five minutes of dialogue that is present in
different sequences, and this it's just it's an another It's brilliant.
(05:01):
It's a brilliant episode, it really is.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I love how it how it starts. Okay, now we're
bb Y two, Yes, go right to Yavin Bass almost
fully developed. Now we recognize everything. It's it's it's a
you know, put a big smile on my face and
you know, oh, here's Wilman back and and so that's
(05:26):
a happy sort of reunion with him. You you interestingly
see now on Yavi and how everybody lives and sort
of where they live. And it isn't just the temple
temples really that we always think of. No, that doesn't
make any sense. No, there have to be all these
areas where people actually uh live and then go to
(05:48):
work and do all these other things. And so we
see all that, we have a tender moment with Cassie
and and and and bix that and you find out
he's kind of injured, just sort of the initial setup
of yab and four. I love that as a start
to all this because now a year has passed.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I agree, And I was going to ask you about that.
This has come up a few times, but every arc
is there's a year between, and I felt, for the
most part that's more sort of a decorative pronunciation, like
there's really not a lot of evidence here. There sort
of is because Cassian has been hurt, we don't see
how he's been hurt. And at first, plus you might say, well,
(06:30):
they're just thrown it in there just as a plot device,
but it's not really important. But it is important because
it ends up being sort of a crisis of faith
to a degree. I don't think we're expected to believe
that Cassian has to believe in the force. It's really
that one of the only times the forces mentioned in
this entire series, which I think is pretty cool because
it still holds our attention. But the sequence when he
(06:53):
and Vix meet with that force healer Bicks sets him
up too. I mean, this is the first one I'm
going to bring up in the episode, and he is
not interested in this. He thinks it's a joke. He
thinks it's a gimmick. But then after the conversation that
they have when Cassie and leaves, he is, you know,
I'll let you know. He runs away. He does basically
(07:15):
run away, and Vic says you scared him, and she says,
I'm sorry, and she says that's not easy to do.
So what is it? Do you think that he's afraid of?
I mean, she kind of alludes to it, but what
do you think?
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Well, I think, well, my short answer is I don't know.
I think it's interesting the context though, if I may
go back just a moment for that, I could you
know Wilman is basically saying, hey, Luthen wants to know
if you're ready to work so it shows that they
(07:50):
haven't done anything for Luthen now for a long time.
Clearly there have been no missions. They've just been there.
They had their sort of at the end of the
last arc where they had the wonderful little scene where
you know, Biggs is able to get revenge, and that apparently,
(08:11):
as far as we know, is all they've done for
Luthen in a year or so. So now Willman shows
up and all this suddenly putting pressure on.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Him to to.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Do more, and and then you have what what you
just described. So is there a little First of all,
I think Cassian really doesn't believe in the Force. He
seems more like in the Han solo camp of all us,
it's a bunch of who what are you talking about?
(08:44):
And of course you mentioned the Force healer. We we
kind of call her that. That word force is never
said in the episode. It's just some creepy person who's
in the cafeteria and people are lining up to talk
to her, and he thinks it's it's blown me. So
he kind of resents the idea of it. I don't know,
(09:05):
do you Is there something in your mind that it
kind of goes back to his childhood or something like that.
That because because he isn't just sort of that he's
agnostic to it. He seems out and out hostile to it.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I Agnostic is probably a good word, my guess, is Cassie,
And being the guy that he is, he's not a
big fan of fate because for the most part, besides bicks,
he's had a pretty rough life. I mean, he's been
you know, incarcerated and uh, chased down, and he's he's
been you know, he's killed people. He's been attacked, his
(09:42):
mom died, his wife was tortured almost to death by
the Empire. He's constantly on the run. He really can't
put roots down anywhere. He has no reason to believe
in the force or anything that would be be like
karma or or positive or faith filled. And I also
think he's very resistant to the idea of being someone
(10:04):
greater than the sum of his parts, because he's not
the first of all, he's pretty deferential to that. I mean,
he hates the Empire. He knows he's good at what
he does, real good at what he does, better than most.
But I get the sense of casting is not the
sort of guy that would like to stick out his
chest and say I'm the hero, right, I agree.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I think he's more mission centered, right, Like, if he
agrees to do it, I'm gonna go get it done.
And then if there's another one and I want to
do it, I'll do that. But the sort of, at
least if this in this point of his development, it's
it that the greater like the existence of the force,
(10:52):
someone else doesn't matter, and sort of the greater struggle
to him is maybe not yet as fully developed either.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And also there's this interesting dichotomy between you know, he
really wants Woman to tell him where he's been, Wilman
is incredibly resistant to revealing anything, doesn't even address it
at all. And then so Cassian's like, we're good here,
things are happening, but Woman is skeptical because Woman is
(11:24):
still very much team Luthen, Cassie. And I think as
much as he respects Luthen in his heart of hearts,
I still think he is he doesn't. He has a
hard time trusting people. I mean, I don't know that
he was crazy with how things were handled with Bicks earlier,
and you know, him being mad that that Luthen went
and visited Bis when he was gone, when Cassile was gone,
(11:48):
and then Cassian's whole like, what do you mean I
can leave the rebellion if I went to but Draythan
is that his name, Draythan Dodonna?
Speaker 3 (11:58):
And uh uh isn't it dray Brayden.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yes, I don't know why. I said, yes, Raven Draven, Yes, yes, yes.
He says, you can't just come if he says, if
I have to decide to tell you when I'm coming
and going that I'm out, And he said, well, that
time is coming soon. So it's so great because they know,
you know, I think earlier woman it's either women or
(12:25):
Cassian says, you know, do you want to fight or
do you want to win? I think in that moment,
Cassian sees winning is having an army assembling to fight
the empire, because you do need an army to fight
the empire. But Luthen wants to fight. Initially, Cassian was,
you know, famously or infamously known as spitting in the
Empire's food, not really having a big impact, right, but
(12:50):
being an insurgent, and some are almost like a bee
or an ant at the Empire's picnic. But now with
this army, it's this huge machine and Casting is a
part of that, and he likes that. But Luthan doesn't trust.
You know, Women's like, you know, there's new faces all
the time, there's new people coming and going all the time.
How do you know who to trust? It's it's so
(13:13):
great because again, this is like you've got on Mathma,
You've got Woman, You've got Luthan, you've got Sagarera, You've
got all these different people, these different pilosshis and we
all want the same thing. We have very different beliefs
in how to make it happen. It's just so it's
so much more complicated and so much smarter than I
could possibly explain it well.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
And I think I think you you hit on a
couple of really good points, which is, first of all,
Casting wants to have it on his own terms. He
wants to come and go as he pleases. He drives
Draven nuts because that's that's security.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
It's not security.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
This is not what we do. If you want protection
of yeah, and you've you've got to we got to
know where you are on this right. But but also
the do you want to fight or do you want
to win? Line? It shows that he is in my
mind pretty in on the Yaven base idea, because what
(14:09):
is it doing. It's still building up, building up, building up,
building up, and that's what we are doing, and we'll
still have to do for a while. So all these
little things you want to do, cut it out. Let's
just as you said, let's just continue building our army.
So he's kind of all over the place right now.
I think he is.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
He is, and I just love that because it's just
this is just such a much more. It makes me
honestly want to learn more and refresh my memory on
not only the United States history, but world history, because
things like this have happened all throughout the globe, you know,
for hundreds of years, for centuries, and it's not so
(14:51):
cut and dry. The humanity gets in the way, pride
gets in the way, fear gets in the way, and
then it all boils down to what do we need
to do, how are we going to do it? Who
needs to know? And what information I'm reading to withhold
like communications seems to be and like there's even a
(15:11):
great moment where Willman and Luthen when they're back on Gorman,
they have to they they make a big production of
talking about getting their com set right, You've got it.
We have to be able to communicate first, and that
lack of communication sometimes is what can can run things
through a convoluted space and make things harder. But then again,
(15:32):
what are your other choices? I don't even know if
I'm making any sense. But then more I talk about
the Moor, I'm just like, wow, this is so confusing,
and I love that.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I think it's it's isn't that great that it's so
complicated because you know, you mentioned world history. I've read
books about the Revolutionary War and it's it's not the
sound by all of us know it has I mean,
it's years and they were shady characters, and there was
this thing didn't go right in that thing didn't go right,
(16:00):
and it's just there's just a lot to that, and
and so it makes this show that much more rich,
that more realistic, because it you could put together a
sound bite about the rebel alliance and but through this,
(16:21):
you know, it's portrayed in such a great way that
it transcends that, which is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Absolutely So, undoubtedly that was a really long tangent. But
I think we're talking about because there's there's just it's again,
it's very, very rich, and I agree with you, what
a what a great thing that we have this, that
we had this complicated, well thought out, well crafted story.
What's what's a major point you have on your list
(16:49):
that you'd like to chat about.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Well, there's one of my favorite scenes is in this episode,
and it is. I mean, there were a couple they
were right back to back that are among my favorite
and they're just conversations, but I just I just love her.
And I'm gonna smush two together and I'll try not
to talk too long. But the first is it's a podcast.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
You can talk as long as you want.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Part of Gus counseling Dedra on you know as and
you already brought it up the whole Hey, it's about
to happen discussion and he he sees how uncomfortable she is,
And isn't that amazing that Dedra is now uncomfortable with this? Dedra,
who herself suggested that you need an insurgency you can
(17:41):
count on to do the wrong thing, one of the
indirect architects of all this. But now it's it's coming,
something bad is coming, and she's visibly nervous. Yes, And
so he counts. Well, there's that counsels her that hey,
(18:02):
this is going to benefit the ISB and you personally
and everybody knows what a good job you're doing. And
and he had it just it plays to who Dedra is.
You can tell how well he knows her. And she
responds kind of to that, but you can tell she's
she's still nervous, you know, She's like, well, you know,
(18:25):
now now they have weapons, and he said, we'll recounting
on it. Uh. It almost looked like to me for
a moment, it's almost like her character had had changed
a little bit. You know, she is so jaded normally
so cold.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
That is it?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Is it just because she's there that she's a little
more skittish. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Oh then go ahead, No, no, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Then right after it, Uh, then you have Cyril show up,
probably more confident that we have than we've ever seen
him ever. He's he's a different dude at this point,
and he comes strutting in. He shows up looking for Dedra.
(19:14):
He basically challenges a an imperial officer with no problem,
like where is she?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Is she back there?
Speaker 3 (19:21):
You know, my gosh, you have the guts to do
something like that even recently.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
No, he did not.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
He's hot stuff in his own mind, now, I think interesting.
And then they have their conversation, which is one of
my favorite from from the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I agree, that's actually the conversation I allude to the
beginning of the show. Yeah, one of the best. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
And he she just very coldly, very plainly, gives him
the party line, well, we found evidence of outside agitators.
And and he knows that she's lying to his face,
and he knows it. He's been there, he's been on
the ground, he's been talking to everybody. And so he
(20:07):
accuses her of keeping him in the dark, and and
then goes ahead and telling he even uses the word nonsense,
this is nonsense. You know what am I doing here?
What are we doing here? In other words, what is
going to happen? And and then so already he's you
(20:27):
can tell he is fearing the worst of some kind,
whatever it the worst is. And then she tells him
to go home and pack, confirming it's set up to him.
And uh, you know, she's like trying to trying to
(20:51):
play to what what he has heretofore always responded to
by saying, we'll be rewarded, we'll be together and that
really that's all Cyril's ever wanted ever, right, And so
he she knows him so well, She says that, but
he's evolved past that. He's He says, for what, what
(21:16):
have we accomplished? And then she tells him to be careful,
very sternly, and I love the long pause then and
he says me, it's just it's just such a and
you probably have another ten minutes to talk about it,
because on so many levels it's so powerful. Now he
(21:39):
can't trust her. Now he thinks the entire reason for
his being there was a sham. He feels like he
was a pawns don't know that he feels that yet.
Well well maybe not, maybe not as a as a pawn,
but you the look on his face.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I would say, the word you're looking for is betrayed. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
all right, stop to start the clock. We'll see what
I have to say. I have a lot to say,
because this is my favorite conversation of the entire episode,
followed by mon Mathema's conversation with the Senator, although for
very different reasons. Sure, what I think is great about
(22:18):
this is that the Veneer data is wrapped tighter than
her hair, and I think I'm confident that that is
one of the reasons for the hairstyles she has, because
she's so uptight and focused laser laser myopically focused on
ascending in her career, which is what part of Gus
(22:41):
ascribes to to give her a peace of mind. The
fact that he keeps saying, what are we doing here?
What is the point? I think when she kisses him,
that's one of the most important scenes in the entire series,
either season, because that's I feel like that kisses multifacet one.
(23:02):
It's a desperate attempt to try to assuage him to
give up this crusade, because he is a crusader through
and to dissuade him from this crusade, remind him that
he loves her and that they can be together. And
she doesn't strike me as someone who's very who's very
(23:23):
shows her love language is not touch but we'll say that, yeah,
But in that brief moment, he's so he like literally
is shocked, he shakes. It's a great bit of acting,
but it's also I think desperation and fear. I think
in that brief moment we see she loves him in
(23:44):
her own way. She does not want to lose him,
and she doesn't want him to die. She knows when
everybody's showing up, what's gonna happen. He's the kind of guy.
He doesn't sit on the sidelines. He is someone that
gets involved. Cyril gets involved when he thinks he's got
the right mission. And we'll see the later of course,
in the series, he is pedaled to the metal Man.
(24:07):
It doesn't matter if smoke he has chased him. He's
getting in his trans am. That's a nice little seventies
reference for everyone. So he it's just so rich because
there's so much anger and frustration because he realizes he's
starting to realize he's a pawn. He's starting to realize
that she is keeping things from him, which I think
he's known all along, but he hasn't really fully lend
(24:29):
into And when he goes to talk with the leader
of the resistance, whose name is suddenly escaping me right now,
do you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Well, he he talked to her his daughter.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, very very briefly, and she slaps him, Yes, she
slaps him. It's Carl Rylands is the father.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Right, And I don't remember her name.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I've got I've got Star Wars dot Com pulled up
right here, I'm fro out. Here we go. It's enza
and ends of slaps him. Why do you think ends
of slaps?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Well, I think he presents to her like I have
an idea to get us out of this before it
gets too serious or however he phrased it, right, and
it's I think she and most of the others with
deception of her father, and we can talk about that
at this point. Who seems to be ahead of the
(25:27):
rest of them in just where this is might be heading.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, one, right, And I think she I think she's mad.
I think she feels like he's lying to her. I
feel like I feel like she thinks he's a part
of it. He's not to try to get her to
like exactly, yeah, get away, we gotta get away. I
(25:53):
can get us out of this. She slaps, and she
thinks he's lying to her.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah, like you're trying to get us to quit.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
You're trying to get us the kid to be to
be killed.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Right, or at least to knock it off. And we're
not going to knock it off. We're we're the Gore
and we have a we have a point to be
made here. And and that's right. I mean, he just
doesn't have the credibility with her that he thinks he does.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
No, and and not to mention the fact that Cyril
has traded in uh eighty, his overbearing mother for someone
who is controlling him in a very different way, in
a much more dangerous way. Yeah, and and that's you know,
that's that's a that's hard. I really think in his
(26:38):
heart of hearts, and I've thought this from the beginning,
he thinks he's doing the right thing. He thinks he's
fighting for the right side. But he's saying, hey, there's
no there's no demolition, there was no explosion. That's not true.
We're the empire. Why are we acting like this? Why
are we doing this to these people? I think that
when he when he works with the resistance, Enza and
(26:59):
her dad Carl, he sees them as people. He's starting
to see, look, insurgents, people who against the empire are
not just these little scavengers or monsters like these are
human beings. What are we doing to these people? I
think he's started to be all for these people. I
think he's starting to understand the plight of the Gormans
(27:21):
in what the Empire is doing, and then seeing that
his wife, who's put him in this position, is using him.
That that's the carbonation, that's the fizz you and I
talked about. It's it's just such good storytelling. It's marvelous.
(27:41):
It's absolutely marvelous. We haven't seen anything like this in
Star Wars. We haven't. And that's not an insult. It's
just it's a different way to tell a story, a
more sophisticated way to tell story. This is this is
the I think I made said this earlier when you
were on Well, this is the closest we've ever come
to Charles Dickens writing. So Star Wars related because the
(28:01):
complexity of the characters. And if you don't believe me,
they need to read a Tale two Cities because, believe me,
it's got the and or vibes.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, I hadn't. I think you had brought that up.
But being more specific about a Tale of two Cities,
I see the point. I do. Let's let's the next scene. Yeah,
we're into the Senate and I know you want to
talk about that that conversation. Let me just talk with
you about a little snippet before the conversation, yeah, which
(28:30):
I just loved. And it's it's an added level of
realism to the society that we get in and or
that you kind of don't get anywhere else. And that's
I mean, uh mon, Mathma arrives. You know, you have
the whole thing with the driver and you can't trust
him and all that stuff. And if she's walking in
(28:50):
there's all these news reports. It's like it's it's it's
sort of a cornucopia of news reports. You hear yes
all and they're in the background. It's so almost like
the soundtrack at that time. It's just a beautiful touch
all different channels, if you will, about the terrible thing
that happened. I'm going thing and things, thing being the
(29:16):
day before attack on a naval base, and just in general,
all the things the Gore are doing, and it's just
all propaganda. So it just shows you very subtly and
just for a few seconds, like what everyone on corriscont
is hearing in their twenty four hour news cycle. I
say twenty four hours. I don't know what the orbital
(29:37):
cycle of coursint is, but you in a day don't.
But It shows how an empire has to operate, right,
You have to keep pounding the message in place that
whatever you hear, you know, we're the good guys and
(29:59):
these others are the bad guys, and and it's it's
just a great little touch about how the empire does
that at least on course.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yes, yes, yes, well the center is Dassy Orrin. He
is the He is the senator for the Gorman people.
And you see here his fear. He realizes, you know,
I wish we could go back in time. I wish
we could do something and see this happening. He knows
(30:32):
his people are about to be exterminated. He just has
a sense. I mean, everybody can see it. This is
the great purpose of this entire season. My Mathma's concerned.
And when the moment when he says to her, he
thanks her for her grace. There's another term he uses
that that I did not write down. But grace was
(30:52):
the one to do.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
You have it, he said, constant courage.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Courage, yes, and the fact that she is fighting the
good fight and trying to help the Gorman people. And
he knows like he's in a place where he can't root,
he can't vote against Palpatine because that's that is bad.
That's not going to work. That is not going to work.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
And it's startling because you know, again the emotion, what
is at risk? What is a plague? And this this
does such a great job of building to this really
scary situation that we know is going to happen, and
I feel like it's really represented well. Earlier in the episode,
when the resistance of Gorman is meeting, You've got Drina,
(31:37):
You've got ends, You've got I'm trying to think of
the the actor in the Gorman front that is the
most outspoken. He's he's a larger man. I'm talking about yes, Uh.
Lazine Lazine. Lazine, as we have seen him, has been
a bit of an outspoken almost a somewhat of a bully,
(32:01):
but here in this beautiful moment, he's the voice of reason.
He tries to instill some patriotic pride, basically saying, you know,
we're the gore. You know, do we attack, do we
laid down, whether we come out with rifles and we
put rose pedals on the road, we are we have
to remember we are at the core because what they
(32:22):
keep doing is making it to such a way that
they're fighting against themselves, Carl Q saying, you know, we've
let them get under our skin. And that's another thing
that they have done. It's like they're the ants. I
don't know why I keep using bugs as a metaphor.
I was just outside, maybe that's why. And they're using
that to pinpoint. They've been rattled and shaken to the
(32:47):
degree that they've turned on one another, and the Empire
is doing everything they can. It's scary. This is scary stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Well, and in that conversation it becomes clear to me
that Caro, that's Rylands, that sort of the elder statesman
of the group. He's arguing for more peaceful agitation at
that point, and everybody else is like, beside themselves, this
has gotten us nowhere. It's not going to get us anywhere.
(33:14):
He seems to grasp that they're being manipulated into action,
that the provocation is what the empire is hoping for,
so you know, And and immediately before that, when the
Gorman Senator is speaking to Mont he uses the term
(33:34):
point of no returns. This all goes to the idea
that every everybody who is truly in the know, not
the regular citizen of the empire. But everybody who's truly in.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
The know.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Is just knows this is something bad is going to happen.
This is not this is not good, and it's already
probably gone too far.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
It's also an example is that, like to say to
my student's show, don't tell. This is show, don't tell storytelling.
They're not spelling it out there there, there, there, while
we're seeing these diplomatic solutions are not working, we see
what's going on with you. Hav and forth, rebellion taking shape,
cassing and sort of fighting within himself a little bit,
(34:21):
and then Bick's lovingly pushing him to embrace who he is.
You know, you're more than just a pilot, You're more
than a soldier. Embrace this part of self. There's so
many lovely things. I don't know I have anything specific,
because the main things we pointed out are great. Casting
goes back, he he meets the clerk at the hotel
(34:43):
who kind of winkingly shows, hey, I recognize you, dude,
I know what's going on here. And then it kind
of ends abruptly. And this is another example of why
I wish this scheme out once a week instead of
three a week. Yeah, because the way they could have
built this, Ben's intention here astronomically important and incredible. Like again,
(35:07):
this is it's not hyperbole, but we're not going to
see storytelling like this for a long time, and it's
just so beautifully done. I mean, I'm ready to give
my letter grade. But if there's certain things you want.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
To talk about, by all means, there's one more thing.
But let me agree with you first that I say
this not sadly no, but I don't we'll ever see
Star Wars like it will surpass this. I think we
agree right now, and over the past few months we've
seen and I'm lucky enough to re examine some of
(35:37):
this stuff with you. I'm honored to see the best
I mean, Star Wars, far better than I could have
ever imagined that we would see.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Agreed.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
The one other thing I wanted to say or ask
you about. Yeah, when after the whole fource Heeler discussion. Sure,
and it seems clear that cassie AND's shoulder is starting
to feel better and he and Vix are talking. They
have a long scene, Yeah, discussing it. You go through
his fear and everything. Actually, no, I'm getting that wrong.
(36:10):
It's it's at the end of the scene with the
Force Healer and Bix, and the Force Healer says, you know,
he's basically said, is saying, I feel like he's he's well,
let me let me write down like he's destined to
be somewhere. He's supposed to be somewhere.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
A messenger.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
He's a message, yeah, a messenger, and then says there
is some place he needs to be. And then he
asked her, well he have you known him for a
long time, and she says I I don't remember a
time when I didn't know him. And then the Force
Healer says, well, maybe you're You're the place he needs
to be. There, there's a moment there that kind of
(36:53):
drags a little bit out where the camera just focuses
on Bis after that is set, and normally that would
be maybe happy news, but for her, she's not happy.
She looks sad.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
I thought that was brilliant because it seemed to me
that Bix knows better.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Yeah, she's so she knows better than this Force healer here. Yeah,
which is weird, Which is complicated, and I hadn't thought
of it that way until you just explained it. I
remember thinking Okay, how can I make sense of this?
How is she the place room? She's certainly someone who
guides him, and she helps him to heal here. He
doesn't get a shoulder fixed without her encouraging this to
(37:40):
happen or facilitating this to happen. She has been there
for him and she helps to keep him grounded. Who
knows if he even stays in this rebellion without her?
But I don't know. I need to think about that
some more, because you're right, she does feel differently about it.
At least she actively about it. Is we'll talk about
(38:01):
next week.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
She You can tell she she buys into the notion
that he needs to be somewhere.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
And I see doubt and sadness on her face if
the with her is where he's supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah, because she knows that she ultimately is likely going
to hold him back because he's just gonna worry about her.
But yet it doesn't keep him from doing these missions,
you know what I mean? But I don't know. It's
a little, it's it's I don't know. It's a bit
of a head scratcher, isn't it. Yeah? But I wouldn't
have it any other way, I really wouldn't listening to
(38:40):
coffee with Knoby.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
You are with Danzi. The podcast you're looking for this is.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I love that so much. Well, John, as long as
you certainly give me a lot to think about. But
I want to know what your letter grade is for
a messenger. Well, I.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Takes no great shakes to understand. I give this an
A based on I mean, and so much of it
is his dialogue in this episode. But it's all so
important and all so interesting, and all such the benefit
of what they've built built up over the original first
season and the first six episodes of this season that
(39:29):
every time there is an important discussion, there's all this
backstory check and all these things that go into it.
It makes it just fascinating. And so I give it
an A.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, this isn't a plus. I mean, again, as we've
said this entire episode, good luck finding a better well
told story. And there's no action in it. There's no fighting,
there's no thrill, there's no suspense. There's just ten And
this is a very talky one. This I'm trying to
(40:04):
think of the guy who wrote this social network. He
did the West Wing.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Was the Oh yes, I'm talking about I do, and
his snappy dialogue is his thing.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
It's his thing, and he advances the plot. You're completely
compelled by the conversation. Gee whiz. I know I could
look it up if I only had access to a
Google machine. But you know, they're just live podcasts are recording.
But that's what it's like, right that. That is what
it is like. It's it's incredibly authentic. It's compelling. You
(40:36):
care so much about what is happening with these characters
because of the Christmas of the dialogue, the performances, and
just sort of how it works, how it works together. Alan,
Aaron Sorkin, Aaron Sorkin, is that was great? This is
the Aaron Sorkin level of dialogue where you're completely compelled
(40:57):
and it's only going to get better. Friends, It's only
going to get better, John, it always gets better when
I get to talk to you, buddy. I hope you've
had a great summer. I've certainly enjoyed chatting with you
about this. I'd love to have you back on any
time to talk about more episodes of and Or. Is
it still true that you are waiting in the coffee
with Knobe Bunker for messages to come your way from
(41:20):
our listeners.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
Well, I threw you sure great, happy to talk to
anyone about and Or, And you know, I should say,
just as something you alluded to before, it's kind of
too bad the way these were packaged and the way
they came out bundled the way they are. I think
(41:42):
the time between episodes, when it's sort of in your
brain and your brain is working on them, would have
been very valuable. It's nice that we can go back
now and go through that together, but most people didn't
didn't get that benefit, and I think that's kind of
too bad.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I very much agree, and that's why we have these
conversations like this, because we want to let it marinate
and so that we can really bring it to the forefront,
because there's as much as we've talked about, there's still
so much more to come.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
or Lucasfilm Limited. It is intended for entertainment and informational
purposes only. The official Star Wars website can be found
at www dot star Wars dot com. Star Wars, all names, sounds,
and any other Star Wars related items are registered trademarks
and or copyrights of Disney and their respective trademark and
copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the
(42:35):
intellectual property of copy with Kenobi. Unless otherwise indicated, this
is the podcast you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
There's no one here off
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