CWK Show #828: Andor- "Who Are You?"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, the lunch creative executive at Locasom, and you're listening
to coffee with Kenobi with Danzy Fish's a podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
You're looking for.

Speaker 3 (00:06):
Continued an inexplicable Gulman resistance to Imperial norms. Many people,
even some Gulmans.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Have already been asking how long the Empire's patients can
be tested?

Speaker 3 (00:15):
And here we are this morning with rumors of a
general strike.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Orders Please.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Supervisor Miro.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Proceed, Wait.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
One less favor. This is Vanessa Marshall Harrison Dula from
Star Wars Rebels, And you're listening to coffee with Kenoby. Hello, friends,
and welcome back to coffee with Kenoby. Or if you
are new to the show, welcome, it's great to have
you in the cafe with us. We are going to

(01:05):
talk about the second season of and Or. Most shows
have gone and done all the arc but we went
through these individually just because they're so rich. I don't
come much more poignant, much more powerful than the eighth
episode and season two. The episode is titled who are
you now? This gentleman, we have this guest. No one's

(01:28):
going to say, who are you? We all know this guy.
It's been a while, mister Tom grows, Tom, Welcome back
to coffee with Kenoby.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hello, it's great to be back on coffee with Kenoby.
And I like how you say in the cafe here,
indeed in the cafe and Boy and or episode eight.
When you asked me early on, you said, if you
could choose which episode you did, this is the one.
I said. So I was thrilled when you when you

(01:56):
asked me to do this one, because I think there's
a lot to talk about in this one, as they
all are, but this one especially.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
I could not agree more. And I remember that conversation
we were at school in your library and I and
I asked that, and you said, well, I think this
episode and so I thought of that, and it's been
it's been kept away and my files ready to go.
Let's just jump into it. As you said, it's a
very very rich episode. Give me one word in overall
reactions to who Are You.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
So? My one word, I think is both for myself
as well as the show. And there's some things in
the show and that is stunned. And I was trying
to figure out what I wanted to put on the
end of that word, if it was stunned or stunning
but I think I'm going to go with stunned and

(02:46):
this one. My reaction was just that. As a matter
of fact, when this, when this episode started, to the
very last moment of this episode, I did not sit
for like I did not sit like back. This episode

(03:09):
for lots of reasons that I know we'll get into,
kept us on the edge of our seats from the
beginning to the end. And I think it was for
different reasons. And you know, it's it's there's the anticipation
and the anxiety of what had been brewing for so long,
then to the incident and then the aftermath that this

(03:32):
whole episode covers. So I think that's that's a good
start for my reaction to this.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
It is a good start. This was This was one
where I was trying to find synonyms for this and
then it just kind of hit me a little bit ago.
My word for this. First, I'll read the definition because
I want to know the exact definition. I know what
the word means, but I want to say it was
described the definition is better or more than all others

(04:03):
of the same kind, to the highest degree or best
of all. That word is par excellence. This to me
is the greatest individual episode of Star Wars in a
history of any series of Star Wars, I would put
this hour of Star Wars perhaps above anything ever made

(04:27):
in the world of Star Wars. And in fact, I'll
take it a step further. If you take like the
top ten individual episodes of all series of all time,
of any genre, I would say this is a top
ten in the history of television shows of all time.
This is excellent. This is par excellence. I've seen it

(04:48):
a couple times. Every time, even when I know what's
going to happen, I get goosebumps, I get choked up.
I get choked up. The suspense is overwhelming. In fact,
I thought if this were underwater, Tom wouldn't make it
because I feel like I held my breath the whole time.
I'm serious, I kept waiting to exhale, to find relief.

(05:09):
But that is why this is a masterpiece. And of
all the individual episodes, this is the only one they
got some Emmy consideration. As far as breaking down individual episodes,
we was really probably talking about the anything later. I
think that Genevieve O'Reilly and Diego Luna and many others
absolutely deserved Emmy nominations, and the fact that they didn't

(05:30):
is the opposite of part excellence. It was very disappointing,
but I am happy to see that this series got
nominated for Best Drama Series, and it should and Who
Are You is the ultimate reason why. In fact, I
don't want to know yet, but I'm just going to
put out, well, no, I'll save it. I will save it.
I will say, well, where do you want to where
do you want to start on this thing?

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, let's start with that. Let's start with that. Not
being able to sit still, you know when this when
this episode gets started, I mean I started taking notes
of like every little thing that was happening, and I
got you know, I have I have like four pages
because it doesn't settle down on anything. It is a

(06:12):
rapid escalation, which to me symbolizes all of the events
in this episode. There are no breaks. Things happened very quickly,
and it's hard to follow the development because we're popping
from one character to another character, to a handoff here
and a march here, and so much is happening that

(06:33):
I feel like is exactly what they wanted us to feel,
because this is just how the Empire drew this whole
thing up for nobody being able to stop and think
we had one character who who was able to see
clearly what was happening, and it wasn't Cassie and and

(06:56):
Or although I don't know that he was he was
falling into their river of it either. But there was
only one character that saw what happened, what was happening,
and he essentially gets trampled on the march to the square.
So I want, I'm kind of curious how you felt

(07:16):
during that whole opening scene when we go from you know,
Cassie and assembling his rifle, to the empire, moving the
barriers to the gormant underground, mobilizing, then Dedra, Dedra reporting
mining equipment, then a media posts that we are hearing

(07:40):
in the background to Gorman resistance marching through the city square.
And that's where it gets to the point where is
it Rylands. He's the he's sort of the patriarch of
the resistance or the he is trying to stop people
because he says it's a trap. It's a trap, and
no one wants to listen to him.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
Wow, you've packed a lot in there, And because this
episode packs a lot, I think one of the first
things when I start moving deal with the barriers, and
you see the imperial who's in charge of this whole thing, Well,
it's sort of hard to tell who's in charge something,

(08:23):
But what is that guy's name.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, he's a I think he's a lieutenant.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, Sergeant Bloy is the one who's in charge of
the troops. Are those poor troopers that are basically being
put out to be served up and and helps start
this murder fest.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
And that's the guy you're talking about. Has some marvelous
lines through this, throughout this episode, but he is stone cold.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
He's he's a sociopath. I mean, he even kind of
enjoys seeing people get killed. Really, I'm looking for his name.
But these Imperial security troopers who are there have to
go out into the massive courtyard and basically the empire

(09:16):
this is their master stroke. They're going to set everybody
up so that they can say no the Gormans attack
to us. We're defending ourselves to try to basically excuse
their massive genocide because they know that they're going to
get away with it because they control information. Right, I can't.

(09:38):
I can't find the guy's name anymore, but everybody knows
who we're talking about. I would think. But that's the
part that alarms me, is that they want surget employ
is forced to put these men, who he says are
green and he said in the last episode that they
were not ready for something like this, right, they're essentially
fresh recruits. And I just and I thought, oh my gosh,

(09:59):
they don't care that these are going to be killed.
And we see later this sniper is tasked with murdering
one of the own imperials to help get everything started. Now,
one of the gore throws a rock first, but a
rock compared to was a sniper that shoots somebody I
think in the head, by the way, And the fact
that the empire does not care. More specifically, the Emperor
does not care who is heard, even if it's people

(10:21):
that are helping to enforce his, you know, despotic rule
across the galaxy, because he wants whatever is in that Earth,
which we know, of course is the Kypri crystals. And
it if you pulled the camera back a little bit,
it makes Rogue one and all this sacrifice, and it

(10:44):
makes what happens with Luke. It's just so much more
meaningful to me because this stuff is all set up
to create the death Star. This is the Empire's ultimate stroke.
We see even more how many people are killed or
murdered or framed or up to be decimated and destroyed

(11:04):
for his weapon, and the fact that Luca is able
to ultimately destroy it just gives a New Hope more gravitas.
But I also want to be clear, and I've said
this many times throughout our discussions of and Or seasons
one in two, the tone of a New Hope is
not even in the same ballpark as a tone in
an and Or. And Or is so much more adult,

(11:25):
so much more mature, so much more prevalent when it
comes to showing cost real cost. A New Hope is
fun in a mythological almost a fantasy. This is not
the only thing that's fantastical about this is when those
those murdered droids show up and they start just it

(11:48):
comes right out of a horseshow they're called k extroids.
They're frightening there. It's like something from Alien or something
like that. I don't know. There's a lot we're jumping around,
but it's hard not to be a little bit. Can
just be fuddled about where to start because it's just
so intense.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
One hundred percent. And to the point you're making is
when I watched this, actually it was kind of as
it was wrapping up, and it's when he's in the
hover pick up or whatever truck that is that he's driving,
and he's listening and he's getting you know, and we
see Cassie and just kind of cracking.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
He cries, He cries down his face. That moved me
and that got me choked, and that.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
That whole moment, You're like, this is where he's making
the decision. He is going to become a rebel, and
he's going to become the best darn rebel out there.
But when he's driving through that listening to that radio broadcast,
all I could think was we'll fall, you know, the

(12:56):
planet in a New Dawn. And now all the planets
that I was thinking about were are escaping my mind.
But every planet that had that had the Empire there
for some particular reason, most of them because of uh,
you know, because of resources that they had. Jetta is

(13:17):
another good example. But and I'm thinking about in a
New Dawn. I mean, they literally tear that moon apart
because they stole so much resources from that moon that
the moon literally comes apart, and I can only picture

(13:38):
that that's what's going to happen here. So I think
I think that's the reason it's so hard for me
to kind of find a point to dig in and
really start talking is because because of the nature of
the episode, it's just so loaded with with little pieces

(13:58):
here and there that come together that make such a
big h such a big point at the end. You
might if I try diving into another spot.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
Uh, yes, before you do, I want to talk about
that Cassian moment when they show him.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
I guess two things on Cassian. One, why does he
take so long to take action when all these grolmen
are being massacred? Why is he just I know, I mean,
maybe it's as simple as he's focused on Deadra and
executing her because that is the mission that Luthen has
given him. Maybe he's just in shock and overwhelmed. It
for him to be overwhelmed for with everything he's seen

(14:37):
shows how intense it is even for a veteran like himself.
Combined with the fact that when he cries like a
tear goes down as he's overwhelmed by this emotion, and
Willman's girlfriend saying over and over on the radio. You know,
people have to know what has happened. Cassian is as
tough as they come. Like he's eaten nails for breakfast, right,

(14:59):
he doesn't even need any to drink like he is
just he's that tough. He's that tough, and for him
to get impacted by that, it gave me goosebumps. Then
it's giving me goosebumps. Now this is so heavy the
ramifications and the fact that we are feeling what he
is feeling and as overwhelmed as he is. That that

(15:20):
says a lot because again of the toughness of the
resilience of this character and to for everything that has
happened him, death of his mother, loss of friends, loss
of his world, everything. This was, as you said, this
was the last straw.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, you know what, if you don't mine, I'm gonna
shift gears a little bit, stay in and I'm gonna
stay and where where you're talking about? Yeah, because let's
let's talk about that radio plea, that that voice of
Gorman radio monologue that happens at the end of this
This is after after the massacre in I keep calling

(15:59):
it this square. I think they refer to it more
as a plaza, but it's a central a central location
that's important because there's a memorial there. It's also just
outside of the Imperial building. It's a marketplace. It's all means,
all sorts of things to the Gormans. And so this

(16:20):
after the massacre, it's it's kind of winding down, but
people are still being chased through the city by the
Kax droids, by Imperial stormtroopers. She comes on and I
won't read the whole thing, but she says, we're under siege,
we have been we are being slaughtered. The imperial murder
of Gorman has begun. There's someplace else that I wanted

(16:45):
to pull out of that. If you can believe, if
you believe in truth, if you have any faith left
in truth, please mark this passage and pass it forward. Message,
Mark this message and pass it forward. This is murder.
The Empire built this fire. They made this fire and
led us to the slaughter. The conspiracy we feared is

(17:07):
here today. So you're a literary person. I studied literature
and and persuasive speaking and speech making, and I wanted
to talk about this in the context of the of
the entire the entire series for that matter, up to

(17:31):
this point where we are because the more more things
like this happened later. And I want to talk about
the power of the monologue. When I wrote this, and
then I discovered that somebody, somebody on Star Wars dot
com had already written about the monologue and or. But
here's here's what I have to say, the power of
the monologue. Here's a few that we've we've experienced up

(17:53):
to this point in the series. Mara Marva in Pherics
Luthen and his his monologue of sacrifice which left us
all stunned. And in Goosebumps Mnemic and his manifesto that
has read during a montage of hard feelings. Keno Lloy's

(18:15):
message of one way out and freedom. These monologues and
again Dani will come to you to fill in the
cracks here, But these monologues draw upon the pathos, logos
and ethos to confirm, to inspire, to define larger ideas

(18:36):
such as what is sacrifice, what is freedom? What is rebellion?
What is truth? And the genius of this show, and
the genius of using these monologues in this format of
visual media, to me, is the storytelling that we see
the response and the clips of characters as they listen

(19:00):
to or as they are impacted by the words of
these monologues. And the characters are moving forward, or they
are in fear, or they are taking action, or they're
just impacted by the message itself. Oh, this is this
is an amazing piece of writing throughout the entire But

(19:24):
you know, here in this episode, the radio call reminds
me of Ezra getting onto uh onto the you know,
when they when they raid the tower and they put
the call out from lethal. This is right there with that,
and and it's just it's so powerful that I don't

(19:44):
know how anyone can listen to this and not feel
the passion, the pain, and in way in certain ways
become inspired by this.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yes, absolutely, And especially because you have a background and
broadcasting in radio, and you're also a pretty dynamic speech coach.
I'm glad that you brought that up. You're the right
person to bring that up. I think the thing that
I like about this, as well as the other speeches
you've mentioned, not to mention mon Mothas in the next

(20:16):
episode and what her speech and rebels as well, is
that these are ways to make a very dynamic, important
point As a writer of this episode or a director
of this episode, without being didactic. It doesn't feel preachy.
It feels like essential, It feels necessary. It feels it

(20:40):
can't be cleansing because you just feel nothing but dirty
and empty inside. But it is a way for us
as an audience to kind of get some sort of
a very brief release because this is what we are feeling,
what they are saying, and it's such a dynamite dynamic
way is how we are feel this. Everyone has to

(21:01):
know about this, you know, we we we we yearn
for justice here for the rebels, uh, for the systems
of Gore, are the Gore people, for ourselves because we
witness these terrible atrocities and they calls it to light
and it deserves It's almost like it's not a tribute,
but it's like speaking at the grave. She in that

(21:24):
moment is speaking at the grave of the Gorman people
and the individual freedom and their liberties. And then at
the end that that that media thing, that that Edi
hears knowing that her son is dead, getting a feeling
that she believes her son is dead. Uh. And the
way they even spun it, I found myself thinking again
and again, are they trying to be imperial sympathizers. Are

(21:48):
they trying to empathize with the Gorman people? But no
they're not. They're taking this tragedy or the Empire murdered
all these people for selfish reasons when no attempts to
negotiate or pay them for the minerals in the earth
or anything like that. No, No, we're going to kill
these people. We're going to kill our own to do it,
and we're just gonna take what we want. That's so scary,

(22:09):
Like I'm it's just really is hitting me now even
more so, and it just speaks to the impact of
this episode.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, and the media spin in this that they that
they use goes clear back to Krinic's plan at the
beginning of the season where they're going to spin all
of this. But let me talk a little bit about
the empire and go back to character we know well,

(22:42):
Deirdre and the gentleman, the officer that we were talking
about earlier. I don't remember his name, black uniform, black lab,
very cold. But this this little passage I want to
talk about is might if you don't know who we're
talking about, you will after this?

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Does he say I have the the trigger. You're the finger.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Is that what he says, That's that's the part I'm
going to talk about. Yes, he says, everything, everything as
you wanted. And he turns to her and he says,
what I want is a comfortable ride home.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
And then and then after a little bit more discourse,
he says, look, let's remember our hierarchy of orders here.
I am the trigger. You are the finger. Do not
go anywhere, you know, like, don't don't you disappear on me.
I don't know. So this is this is what what

(23:37):
draws me to this because it does actually a nice
job going from where we just talked about at the
end of the episode, because the he says the comfortable
ride home, and it makes me think of and or
driving away in a not comfortable, very sick feeling in
it and he's going away on and it just what

(23:57):
it makes me think of is it's just another day
at the office for the empire. This is this is
not like a moment, This is not a grand stand
for the empire. This is just another day. This is
the lives of the people of the Gorman But this
is just another day to these destroying lives versus maintaining

(24:19):
power and comfort flies me back to a conversation that
happens in Revenge of the Sith between Oh, I mean,
this guy named the Emperor and this new guy named
Darth Vader, and the lieutenant just wants a comfortable ride home,

(24:41):
and the Emperor says, we will have peace. This is
their peace. This is their peace, and it just when
you start sewing it all together. This is a This
is a magnificent quilt story that has so many links.

(25:03):
You can watch one story of it and think it's amazing,
or you can take all of them. You know, people
like you and I Dan, we know all the stories
and we start piecing it together, and it starts making
this tragic story that sometimes is a little too much
like life. But here in film and literature it's so

(25:28):
well pieced together that it's just as you said, it's
very scary.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
And when he says I want to comfort right home,
I like, it's really rare. I think if you go
through the history of the show, it's pretty rare for
me to like say something like this. But when I
heard that, I hated that guy. Yes, not the actor,
of course, the character. I hated that character, like hated them.

(25:55):
And I'm not someone who feels that way about anything
real or imagine, but he he was just It's like
he could have been eating a sandwich watching all this
death his own people and the Gorman people and seeing
them murdered and killed and frightened. They were like, you know,
they treat him like rats. They treated the Gormant people
like rats, and they're running frightened for their lives, horrified.

(26:19):
Then these monstrous droids come in throw them around like
they're just rodents to be discarded or killed. Who cares
how they feel? And he doesn't care. That is so evil,
Like that is one of the most evil things I
think I've heard in Star Wars. It really is. And
I keep feeling like I'm being hyperbolic, but I don't know.

(26:39):
I think I could defend it because it's it's all there.
It's all there in front of you.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
There's the one officer in the Mandalorian when it's the
first time the Mandalorian takes his helmet off and he
and do you know what I'm talking about. I can't
think of his name.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
He's despicable. He's despicable like this guy is, and it
just is, it's it's just ugly operations. Cinder Cinder, Yes,
that's it. Yeah, but anyway that yeah, he very much
reminds me of him. And you know the things that
you're you're saying about this person. There's so many cuts

(27:21):
during the massacre where they go and they show him
standing behind the you know, the bulletproof and the laser
proof glass, watching it like it's a tennis match or something,
and he's the one that calls the sniper to shoot
their own person.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
A good heavens, it's true.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
Heavens.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
Uh, let's talk about another casualty of this. And I
think this is the most personal and after watching this again,
I never thought it was. But I think Cyril Kran
is the most complicated character in and Or in either season.
He really is the moment when he goes and he
confronts Dadra you know, how long have you known about this?

(28:08):
His rage is it's like everything he's ever felt is unleashed.
He is so betrayed by this woman who he knew,
you know, he replaced his mother with her. They're both
overpowering and controlling, but in this moment, he just he screams,
he chokes her. Ah, he he insists on knowing what's happening,

(28:30):
and she starts to give the company spiel about you
know that it's a rumor they are an outside there's
no outside digging. He's like, no, I will throw you
out this window if you say that. And then when
he leaves her like she says, we can be together,
and when he leaves her and she breaks down. And

(28:51):
this is a woman raised in an imperial essentially an orphanage,
probably raised by droids. I think they've said that, not
some one who has a lot of compassion or any
compassion or empathy. She's almost robotic in her own way,
all the way up to how her bun is tied
tightly in her head. When she's in that soundproof room

(29:13):
where she used to communicate with part of GADS and
with Cyril when they're doing their communication moments she lets go.
Her right hand starts twitching like almost like a nervous thing.
She's having a little break down herself, and to fix it,
she kind of straightens up. She tries to straighten up,
get control, present herself, but she can't be.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
She is.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
On stars dot com. They say that seeing the massacre
affects her. I don't know. I mean I think so.
I think so, but not as much as it affects Cyril.
I think she feels in that moment what she has
done to him, how she has betrayed him, combined with
what she is happening and what she's helped. I mean,
she didn't want to give the order to open, you know,

(29:58):
to you know, proceed. I think all she says is proceed,
and it's these two people's lives are ruined. Cyril ends
up getting We will talk about the fight with casting
here in a little bit, but it just that deeply
affected me because my heart broke for him, almost like
he was. He was symbolic of the cruelty and how

(30:21):
people in the galaxy think they're fighting for something good,
that the empire is righteous or just, and it's like
everything is crashing in front of him. Everything he believed in,
everything he fought for, completely falls apart. Also parlayed with
the complete betrayal of his wife, assuming they're married.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah if that's so well spoken, Yeah, yeah, so well spoken.
And I couldn't agree with you more. He is so
complicated to the point where sometimes I'm not sure who
he is and I wonder sometimes, you know, I feel
like so much of this whole and or season one
and two, Sarah feels that he knows exactly who he

(31:07):
is and what he is. He is there, he is
alive to do. He is so persistent. But here at
the very end, I just don't know that he really knew.
I mean, you have that moment when you mentioned he's
standing in them in the middle of the square and
people are dropping all around him. They go to a

(31:28):
slow motion as he turns and you can see like
laser fire slow motion going across and I just it's
like such a whirlwind. Yeah. And to the moment with
him confronting Dedre, which I always think it's funny Cardigast
calls him, calls her Dedra, but anyway that I always

(31:53):
have a hard time saying her name because of that.
But he becomes physical, and it reminds me of a child.
When a child has like a childlike rage, sometimes they
will grab their stuffed animals and just throttle their stuffed
animals out of just a rage that they don't really
understand what's happening, and then they they it passes. That's

(32:15):
exactly what I felt Cyril was going through in that moment,
except it wasn't a child rage. This was a real
adult rage. And he grabs Deirdre like like a stuffed animal,
grabs or around the neck and she and she defends
it by saying, whether it's us or not, it's happening.

(32:36):
But we have a we will be going home as heroes.
Can you imagine? Like she believes that they and they
probably will. I mean this is not if I'm making
but the fact that they believe in that they probably
will go back to Coruscant as heroes of the empire.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
And don't you agree that when she says that, you
get the sense she doesn't believe of what she's saying,
Like she feel like like she may believe that that's true,
but she doesn't feel like one.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yes, she's saying what she believes to be true, and
shes saying what she wants it to be true. Yes,
And it's it's such a it is really an amazing piece.
And I really kind of thought that that when we
saw her in that like reporting room, that that might

(33:28):
be it like that that might have been the last
time that we see her. But as as we we
may know, if you're watching, while you're listening to this,
you won't know, so I won't say, but it's not
the last time we see d Drum and.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
I kind of when I talk about this later, but
I kind of wish it was. But I'll talk about
that in a future episode.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
I kind of wish it was too, because I think
I think after this episode, I think I said to
you at school that I like, oh, yeah, you ask me, yeah,
do we see because yeah, you would seen seen something.
And I said, I said, is this the last time
we say? Because I really kind of felt like that
would have been a nice okay, nice, it would have
been an appropriate, appropriate ending to her story completely. Let's

(34:16):
jump to sorry, I'm I'm no please mute mutiny on
coffee with Canobia near the well you mentioned you mentioned
the fight between Cassie and and Cyril. Yeah, have we
been waiting for had we been waiting for that to happen?
I really honestly didn't know if they would ever cross paths,

(34:39):
so I was kind of surprised when this happened.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah. Uh, I have a lot to say, but I
go ahead, yeah, go ahead, no, go ahead, No, this
to me, this is the Godzilla moment, uh and Godzilla
minus one, there's this moment. Well, I don't know if
someone says it or if I just talked about it
on Pearl on CWK brow, which, of course I hope
you all join as a member of the CWK Alliance.

(35:07):
Godzilla destroys property, He destroys communities, he destroys lives, and
he just does it. The people know it. Godzilla has
no idea who these people are at Godzilla is just
being Godzilla in this moment when he says who are you?
It's such an important line that they make at the

(35:28):
title of the episode. Cassian has no idea who this
guy is. This guy and Dadra have been obsessing over
him since we met them in the first five minutes
of season one of and Or the first episode. He
has no idea who they are. SyRI unleashes his rage,
his anger, his frustration, his betrayal, his intense pain on

(35:50):
this guy, and he pummeles Cassian. Finally, Cassian fights back
and equally pumbles him, and then ironically he ends up
getting killed by the peace loving man who didn't want
them to fight. Yeah, and it's Rylan's yeah, Yeah, Rylands

(36:18):
He's the one who ends up killing and he saves
Cassian's life because most likely ceral. It's possible hero's gonna
you know, but he kind of puts his weapon down
briefly when he says who are you? And I would
like to think makes it more tragic, But I would
like to think that serials like oh white, maybe this
guy is being misled like I am, and it's it's

(36:40):
sort of like what a waste? I mean, in a
different world, in a different reality, could these two have
been Have they gotten a lot? I don't know. The
serial's very different. He's very by the book and they
probably would have butt a heads regardless, but it wouldn't
have been with fists. So it sticks with you because

(37:01):
the great irony is all this hate and rage and
all this focus he's had obsessing over this guy. Uh
is this guy a part? What did he commander in
that first episode? Yeah? Do you know this whole story?

Speaker 2 (37:14):
No?

Speaker 1 (37:15):
And there's just so much more to it. That's why, again,
as I keep babbling and saying, this is such a
rich series because it's not black and white, it's so
convoluted and so steved in humanity of humans.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yes, exactly. This the fight that you described was was
right right on target. It reminded me of a level
episode they just they just really beat each other up
to where barely both of them could stand. But to
the point you're talking about where Cerah has him and

(37:56):
he starts to lower the weapon before he is he
has shot, he being Cereal is shot. I felt like
I felt like he wanted to tell him, tell him
the story like I've been like I feel like he
just wanted to say, I've been chasing you across this
galaxy and I hadn't thought of the angle that you

(38:18):
were talking about, Like does he wonder if he's been
manipulated like he has? Like does he want to tell
the story to find out? Does he want to learn
who is this Cassian? And or that I've been chasing
so blindlessly and now I have him and he doesn't
know who I am. I think that there was so

(38:40):
much there. There was so much there, and like you said,
it's it's a tragic ending to a complex character that
has just confounded me the entire series. But I wanted
to know more about him, and it's and we don't,
you know, we won't. There won't be an act and
figure of of Cyril because there's no heroic ending.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
No, and he is he is a character that I've
I continue to just marvel over to be moved by
because he his pain, his his tragedy is just so
impactful to me because he has been misled and used

(39:26):
and he's he's been He's got a lot of talent.
He's got a lot of talent, uh and passion and
ability to get things done, and it's all been wasted
for the wrong reasons. That's that I find that frightening.
That's frightening and.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
Just the and I and I'm so like his mother.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Eaty, just super annoying. And then you suddenly are like,
oh my gosh, I feel terrible for this woman.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
She's she's endearing and some you know, she's endearing to
the audience. I mean in that moment, only in that moment, Yeah,
to me, I mean, but it's really I feel for
I mean, I don't have a mother in law or
my mom is nothing like this woman. But I feel
for him as as a son or for him as

(40:17):
a son when he when she comes over to Deirdre's
apartment and they're having dinner and I'm just like, oh
my gosh, she's saying like all the wrong things, just
like a you know, like a mother should or whatever,
but only only continue to add layers of, as you've said,
humanity to that character. And you do feel just kind

(40:42):
of dreadful for her at the very end when they
when they this episode concludes.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
And isn't that the beauty of it too, that we
can feel that deeply for for Edie when she's been
a thorn in our sides and especially in her son's side,
because again, these are human beings or not. They're not issues,
they're not whatever, They're humans, and these Gorman people are
being destroyed for reasons they don't even know and set

(41:11):
up to think that they like in the entire time,
the only person who believes a Carro is the only
who believes that peace is the only way. But his
daughter ends up part of this whole thing, working with everybody.
She tries to toll the company line with her dad,
and I think she believes in that, but she's younger
and she's a bit impetuous or impulsive. But when she's

(41:36):
tossed by that droid through the air cat just carelessly, casually,
and she's murdered, it's just like even now, like I
feel like I'm getting up set, like this is just horrible.
It's pretend it's fake, but the emotions aren't. But the impact,
you know, and it's just when Tony Gilroy set out

(41:58):
to make and or he he was in he was
I always want to make some sort of historical episode,
and he ends up taking a combination of world history
events and combine them into this and it completely overpowers
you in the best ways that stories can move us.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
So the can we talk about the the Gormans, Yeah,
for a second, because you have to two factions of
Gorman's here. You have the just the innocent public who
is fed up. That's the that's the majority of the
people marching to the plaza. Then you have the rebels.

(42:47):
And I don't know when I say rebels, I don't
that I mean.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
Gyewalker rebels just insurgents or people local local.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
Rebels And they've got you know, and they know and
they have information, they have intel, and they know what's happening.
They know what they need to do and all this
kind of thing. But there's a there's a thing that
they do as they're marching to the plaza and they
are chanting this catchy little chant We are Gore. The

(43:18):
galaxy is watching. We are gore and a horn is
blowing and it's it's really powerful. They get to the
they get to this to the plaza, and I don't know,
I want to hear what your take is on this,
but I feel like and and other other stories that

(43:42):
we've read about people being oppressed by the by the Empire,
they continually think, everybody knows someone will come to save us.
This and this is actually historical. You know how many
times in history has someone who's being oppressed said, surely
someone will come, someone will will.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
Be France for a long time to try to recruit
their French to help the colonials.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yes, and so so they're they're chanting this and chanting this,
and they get to the plaza and then then it changes.
They they one one man starts singing what I think
is the national anthem.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yeah, yeah, he beautiful song.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
And then and then so it kind of goes through
the entire crowd and then you have everybody singing the
national anthem. And and to me, yeah, I love these
guys with their little their hats and how they during
this scene they take their hats off and they're holding

(44:52):
them in their hands. I don't know if that's I
don't know if that symbolizes anything, but it just it
feels like so real. I don't know, it's such a
real emotion to take your hat off. It's a respect
thing exactly. And so they changed from the galaxy is
watching to their national anthem. That makes me feel like

(45:15):
they realize that the galaxy isn't here to save them
and the only people that are here to save them
is themselves, and so they turn to this national anthem
to their own loyalties, and that really gets, you know,
the emotional like they're angry with the galaxy is watching.

(45:37):
But then it becomes emotional when they start singing their
national anthem that talks about their land, which is, you know,
the mining equipment is landing as they as they sing,
and they talk about the land, and they talk about
them as a people and hard working people that they are.
All of this right before the storm hits. I don't

(46:00):
know what is your thought on the switch from a
chant that the galaxy is watching to something that is
more emotionally tied directly to them.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
Well, it's an attempt at patriotism and unification instead of
yelling about what they don't like that is happening they
remind themselves of what they do like about themselves as people.
And Lazine, who when we first meet is shown to
be an instigator and the one that is more interested
in brute force and aggression. He's the one who starts this. Now,

(46:36):
does he want it to lead to everybody calming down?
I think he kind of does. I also think he
feels this incredible pride. He says repeatedly throughout this season.
We are the Gore, We are the Gore. He loves
his people, he loves his land, and he wants to
remind everyone of that. And then of course things go
to hell, absolute hell. Because I was gonna ask you,

(46:59):
what do you think? Why do you think that Lusine
starts it? But I just sort of answered my own question.
He just feels pride and wants to be a source
of reminding who they are because they're losing themselves in
this father is and daughter or fighting. You know, people
are fighting against each other. It's like it's it's not

(47:22):
a civil war, but they're certainly not on the same page.
And it's this brief moment there the Gore people get
a chance to just be be beautiful and be happy,
and this songing this songing. The singing might have stopped it,
but then you know it doesn't. And then rock is thrown,
and then this sniper starts sacrificing their own imperial, his

(47:43):
own imperial, to make people think that the Goyt hacked first,
that they shot first, and they didn't, and they didn't.
Let's see, what else do you think? I because I
think we've hit the most important parts. I feel terrible
for Carl get. We don't see him die, we see

(48:05):
him heartbroken, deestsa when he confronts Cyril. In that moment,
he still think Cyril is the cogonists that set them
all up, that made him look like fools. He says, you,
what kind of person, what kind of creature? What kind
of individual are you to do this? To still continue
to lie and Cyril I won't say he's a slow learner,

(48:26):
but I will say his whole life, he's again been
raised to believe the Empire is good and just. And
he thought he was doing something trying to faure who
the outside rebels were. He probably I just thought this.
He probably thinks he's going to catch Cassian. He probably
thinks he's going to catch Luthan, who they don't call
with thin because they don't have a name yet. He
probably thinks this is maybe my connection to finding who

(48:48):
activates all this insurgency because they get said, we're looking
for outside rebel interference. That is what Cyril is trying
to investigate and draw out. That's what he thinks deadre
has tasked him with. But it's not true. And he's
again slowly realizing all of it. And and then we
see what happens. We see what happens.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
Yeah, I think part of part of the emotion of
this is that we and I know we've we've mentioned it,
but just to be poignant on it is is that
it didn't matter what the Gormans did in this situation.
It was going to end the way it did because

(49:32):
the Empire was in complete control from the start to
the end. You know, in fact, when I talk about
the you know how how this episode just keeps moving
and it shifts in it and it never settles in
We can never we can never sit back in our
chairs and like watch and really process because it's it

(49:56):
moves so fast. The only of this entire episode to
me that that you could possibly do that or when
you were in with the imperial officers. That's the only
calm moments where no one's hysterical, no one is emotionally charged.
They're very calm, even when like even when they strike terror.

(50:20):
You know, when the stormtroopers come down the steps of
the south Gate, that is the most fearsome moment of
stormtroopers that I think have ever since. Yes, I was like,
I felt like people are dying today because of those stormtroopers,
and we can make all the jokes we want to

(50:41):
about their aim. It's not going to be a problem
today for them, uh huh.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Agreed. And just and the fact that they they're the
facts that they're faceless and they're wearing masks and they're
just coldly with those permanent frowns in their faces, just
there to scare the heck out of people, and you
hear their screams of terror, and it feels like you're
watching a real historical documentary at that moment. And then
you combined with first one time flies over, then four flyovers,

(51:07):
like they're flexing their muscles showing they're like a snake
ready to strike.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Yeah, I'm looking to see if there's anything else I
wanted to.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
I'm ready to give a letter grade. But I'm certainly
happy to talk about anything else that you think. We
haven't come.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
The only other thing, and I think you mentioned it
was at the very end when we watched that those
news reports they go to two or three different news reports,
and it just is very it's just very frustrating to
watch those because they're one of two things are happening here.

(51:46):
And I think I know which one it is. It's
either the news only sees one perspective or they are
being completely fed what Sorry, I'm looking for a note.
I had a note on this, but I'm struggling to
find it. But they are you know, the Empire is

(52:07):
manipulated this here. It is I noted to myself that
that this is more than just from a certain point
of view. The news programs that they're all the news
moments they show in the plaza, they show two different
news people talking about the insurgents, the empire being baited

(52:31):
and all this kind of thing. And then at the
end and this is not this is not news from
a certain point of view. These are made up stories
based on a certain point of view that I call lies. Yes,
and the Empire has completely manipulated this, and we know

(52:52):
this going clear back to Crinic in the opening episode
of this whole season, it's been a genius plan.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
From the beginning. A seemingly innocuous conversation at the beginning,
Ah ends up being a pivotal and again, this is
one of the reasons I love this series is there's
no wasted beats. You know what I mean. There's there's
no wasted narrative beats. It's all purposeful. It's all completely purposeful.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
Listening to coffee with Canoby, you are with dan Z
the podcast you're looking for this is.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
Well, it's valen Hes by the way. Valen hess Is,
by the way, is the imperial in the Mandalorian That
is so despicable. Okay, buddy, Uh, thank goodness, I have
you de bounces off because this is a heavy episode
and I knowed you bring some light much need a
light to this conversation. What is your letter grade on

(54:06):
who are you for?

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah? For this episode it is an A plus. There
wasn't a moment that I wasn't drawn in and tied
into this story personally as well as as a fan
of the franchise of Star Wars. It's a magnificent piece
of work.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
This is what I was going to say at the beginning.
If anyone, no one could commiss me. This is not
an A plus. This isn't an a plus. Then you
have a rubric that I don't want, because this is perfection.
This is the most impactful, emotional, devastating. Like I said,

(54:53):
if this was if I had to pick the ten
best individual episodes in history of television streaming, and although
back to the to the opening ever television, back to
being crosby Bob Hope all that, this will be in there.
This will be in there, and it is the best
individual hour of narrative Star Wars storytelling. You know the
last episode in in season two of the Mandalorian when

(55:17):
Luke shows up, that's my favorite. Uh, It's it's incredible,
It's genius in a very very different way. But this
is the best acting, the performance, the script, and none
of it has that power and impact without the lead
up of the first you know, seven episodes and season

(55:38):
one of and or, plus the history of Star Wars itself.
This is this is another This is another bar of
another bar.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Yeah, and again just repeating what you said early on,
is you know all of this, all of this season
of and Or and the season before that lead up
to Rogue One only bring a certain richness to now
the original trilogy. The cost that goes into this. You

(56:07):
know when they say you know when they say that
you know the plans were this or that for the
original Death Star. We know now we know that people died,
we know how these these plans are developed and everything
and how the rebellion begins is an amazing story and

(56:30):
this is it. Yes, Yeah, I just this. This episode
was such a turning point for me, not because I
wasn't believing in anything, but it really defined what this
is all about.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
And this is another reason, as I said again many
many times, why we should add one episode a week,
because this would have sustained the Internet for a week
easily easily.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Well, Tom, it's been such a delight to have you
back on the show. You've been very busy this summer.
I am one of the reason I'm looking forward to
getting back to schools being able to see you more regularly.
But please tell us about what's going on with teachers
in the dungeon.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yeah. So we just finished our summer camp, our RPG
summer camp where we bring kids in in the summer
and for four days, and we teach them RPG skills
in the morning and then they get to play a
consecutive game throughout the week. It was our largest group
that we've ever had, of thirty seven students. It was

(57:32):
the first time we brought in incoming freshmen, so we
had ages approximately fourteen to eighteen here this year, and
we had students from other schools that had come to
the camp this year, and it was just it was
an amazing piece to watch all of these kids, some

(57:52):
that knew each other, some didn't know anybody, and they
all were friends before the first day was done. You know,
they were talking to each other, they were playing games
with each other, they were playing they were learning together
in different sessions and things like that, and that is
to me, the joy of it all. But the other
component is we bring alumni back to run the games

(58:15):
for our current students in the afternoon. And we had
two new dungeon masters this year that were one was
a student graduate or they were both graduated last year,
and it was just so much fun to watch them
as dungeon masters after a year of college and just
see how they changed and the new expression and just

(58:40):
a little bit more mature than they were a year ago.
I mean they were sitting in the campo.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Arego right, amazing, And you have an actual episode where
you talk all about that, which I highly highly recommend.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
Well, thank you and I appreciate that. And yeah, teachers
in the Dungeon, you can catch us on the podcast
same podcast feed. You can catch coffee with Kenobian.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
How about it.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
or Lucasfilm Limited. It is intended for entertainment and informational
purposes only. The official Star Wars website can be found
at www dot star Wars dot com. Star Wars, All names, sounds,
and any other Star Wars related items are registered trademarks
and or copyrights of Disney and their respective trademark and
copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the

(59:22):
intellectual property of Copy with Kenobi unless otherwise indicated.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
This is the podcast you're looking for. There's no one
here on on

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