CWK Show #830: Andor- "Welcome To The Rebellion"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi. This is Steve sand Sweet, President and chief executive
of Rancho Obi Wan, and you're listening to coffee with
Kenobi with an Zi. This is the podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
I need to make a speech tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
I'll never let you take the floor. I've seen you
work miracles before. It must be done, bail.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
I can't take it anymore.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
And yes, I know there's no telling what the emperors. Okay,
but this, at this point, anything is possible. But they've
gone too far and we all know it. Excuse me,
we have an immediate problem.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Did you talk to Mathma? What are we doing?

Speaker 1 (00:34):
I shouldn't have told her about hers kin?

Speaker 2 (00:36):
She's speaking or not?

Speaker 1 (00:38):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
I'm the monster screaming the loudness, the monster be pelped
create the monster?

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Who are compress?

Speaker 3 (00:50):
All?

Speaker 4 (00:53):
Is then her putty?

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hello? If I've offended you, I apologize.

Speaker 4 (01:07):
If not, I'd appreciate you pointing that elsewhere.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
This is James Arnold Taylor, and you're listening to coffee
with Kenoby. I have a good feeling about this. It's
time finally to talk about Welcome to the Rebellion, the
ninth episode in season two of and Or. I Am
your host, Dan's are and today I am joined by

(01:34):
two veteran guests of not only Coffee with Kenoby, but podcasts.
One of my guests even has her own very popular
Star Wars podcast. Let's bring him in first. The matriarch
of the CWK Cafe, Mary Purdue. Hi, Dan, how's it going.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
It's going. Well, it's a little hot down here in Florida,
but it's hot everywhere, so you know we're coping good.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Well, it's good. I'm glad. I'm glad. We got to
chat a little bit briefly during the CWK mouse Fan
Travel Disney Wish experience, and you were as always. We
joked about hurting cats. You heard it all of us,
and it was so much fun to kind of see
you with all of us.

Speaker 4 (02:19):
Yeah, that was a great time. And I love it
when people come down here now that I'm down in
the vacation capital of the US, to be able to
get to see friends and family that honestly you never
get to see unless they come to visit kind of
a thing. And now they come to visit the Mouse
or they come to visit Epic and I kind of

(02:42):
wiggle my way into the vacation time.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, I'm so glad that you do. Also joining us.
Jay Krebs has returned to coffee with Kenobia. Jay. Of course,
you and Dennis have your wonderful podcast. It's so good
to have you back on the show.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Well, thank you so much, Stan and Mary. It's so
good to see and talk to both of you. It's
been a while, and it's always such a pleasure to
be on CWK. This is where I started with the
blogs and with you, Dan, and just with the whole community,
and so I just I treasure all the connections that
I've made with everyone, and so it's always just such
a treat to be back on the show. So thanks
thanks for inviting me.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Oh my pleasure in podcast. Start Us is a must listen.
You and Dennis are so busy, three shows a week.
I continue to just marvel at that and the amount
of editing that goes into that. But you neither of
you show any signs of fatigue, but just pure joy
of Star Wars and that's what we love and what
we need.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Oh Dennis does all the heavy lifting. I'll tell you
what he does all the editing. He is the bomb
dot com. I'm mainly along for the ride. You would
probably say, oh, no, you're not. But he needs some
major props. But we have a lot of fun. We
call it our appointment star Wars. So we're up over
nine hundred episodes now, so.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Amazing, absolutely fun. Oh my gosh, Well this one, I
don't know if I'll say this episode is tons of fun,
but it is. Well, it's a lot of things. So
we're going to break it down. Mary. We're going to
start with you. Please give me one word to describe
Welcome to the Rebellion instead of your overall thoughts on
this pivotal episode.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
Okay, I had a lot of thought in this. I
rewatched it yesterday after you contacted Jay and I about
being on today, and I really bounced around a lot
of different words, and I came up with a hyphenated
word I'm sure Mason would approve in I opening. I
thought it was I opening for Man to actually see

(04:42):
what was going on with the rebellion as far as
what the ground people on the ground were having to
do to push this rebellion forward. I thought it was
I opening for Cassian to also kind of see what
the overall arch has been that he has been this

(05:04):
this this trip that he's been on since he was
six years old, and then wanting to give it up.
I'm sure we'll talk about that later. And then I
opening for books as well from the previous episode meeting
with the Force Hiller too, now all what has happened

(05:25):
and and and Lawn's speech and so forth. I just
think it was an eye opening time for so many
of them.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Very well said, uh, Jay, what would you say? Your
one word is we've got eye opening And I know
Forrey is like, never lets us do hyphenated things on
CWK Proverer. But he's not here so worried just going to.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
Stick with its approved yessprove that's too funny.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
So ie opening is a great one. I would definitely
have to say pivotal. Every single one of these episodes
has been pivotal in its own way in terms of
new revelations and eye opening things, as you said, Mary,
but I think for this one, right after the Gorman
Mascar there's just so many things happening. I mean, you've
got Cassie and wanting to leave the rebellion and questioning

(06:15):
his his place, and the whole thing. You've got man Mathma,
who is now basically becoming you know, a fugitive against
the the Empire. You've got you know, bail Organa who
is also in a very pivotal moment here. We've got
Bix who ends up leaving because she feels like Cassie

(06:35):
is so much better off doing the rebellion without her,
because she knows he won't. So you know, it's in
to borrow the code word from Ahsoka, it's a fulcrum point.
You know, it's a it's a it's a balance, it's
a teetering. So it's very pivotal in so many different ways.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
I like, I like you brought up the word fulcrum
because I think that is that's an important way to
look at this as well. If if I yeah, you know,
I could say, you know, this is beautiful, it's a masterpiece.
I'm sort of cheating right now by throwing out other
words that we're that we're rough drafts for this. But
to me, the word is symbolism. There is so much

(07:14):
symbolism in this episode, and I'm not sure. I don't
In fact, I know I didn't catch it the first
time I watched it. But fortunately this second viewing, or
this additional viewing really brought to light how powerful this is.
We already know it's powerful because of mon Mathma's speech
and what's at stake and how everything completely changes. It's

(07:38):
the Folkrum. It's eye opening, and it's so incredible, so
well done, that we have to talk about it. So Mary,
let's start with you. What's a key point? You can
go in any order of what happens in the episode.
The only thing we're not gonna do is talk about
episodes ten, eleven, and twelve, because we're just gonna go
through each one, as you know, and just give it

(07:58):
its own merit, because it's so wrong on its own.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Well.

Speaker 4 (08:03):
I think the thread with Luthen, you know, meeting up
with Man, letting her know that things are going to
get tricky, and then him meeting up with Cassian, and
then seeing Claia always there to sort of propel things forward,

(08:26):
like she's we said, herding cats earlier with us, but
sometimes that that seems like that has been Clia's job,
is to herd this rebellion together, and we kind of
see her do that with Luthen and with Cassian and

(08:47):
then later you know, with Man, just kind of keeping
things together. And I know that's not one specific thing,
But it just seems like that it's this continual arc
of the play of between Luthen and Claya and then

(09:08):
how they're they're steering everything that's going on, especially during
this episode, figuring out who's where, who you know, who's
saying what, what's happening with the speech, how are we
getting Mom out of there? All of that, and those
two are really gearing up and pushing forward what's happening

(09:33):
through this entire episode, even though we don't see them
a lot.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
So he is so important Luthen and Rail is so
important in this because his style, which is probably an
interesting way to describe it, is very unorthodox for a
normal human relationship interaction. It's not one that can be
built on us. Although he's probably the most trustworthy person

(10:03):
in the Rebellion because of all the secrets he keeps. Now,
the problem with Lucien Luthen, of course, is that he
is in many ways the judge during an executioner, and
there's reason for it. He's not cold blooded, but he
does what he has to because of the tyranny and
the oppression that is the Empire and their sway over

(10:24):
the galaxy, and you know, man Mathma recalls in a
pivotal scene when she talks with Luthen. We don't get
to see him talk very much in this season, but
when we do, it really counts. And she basically brings
up her childhood friend, laments what has happened to him,
and he doesn't apologize for that. But then she starts

(10:46):
to think, well, how do I know that I'm not
going to be dispensable someday?

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Now?

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Whether she believes that or not, it's hard to say.
I just think she's very complex. Their relationship is complex,
and what they're fighting for is more common complicated than
any of that. So it's just a really great piece
of human drama that is cultivated by Luthen's approach that
is based on paranoid but it's also based on a
long term plan that is very very hard to keep

(11:13):
focus and why so many people have a hard time
and he has our time being close to anyone.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, even Claia. I mean they've they've had, you know.
And what I appreciate about what you just said, Dan,
is that the whole idea of trust, you know, And
with Lutheran it's not necessarily Yes, it's about trust, but
he's a realist, and he's in a lot of ways
you can almost compare him to Palpatine in that he's

(11:39):
playing a long game. He's but he's playing it on
the side of the rebellion as opposed to the side
of oppression. And you know, so to build on what
you said as well, and I'm just kind of jumping
in here, so I apologize, but to build on what
you said, Mary and what you said Dan. You know,
my whole theme is trust in this episode and just

(12:01):
understanding things that you see that go on behind the
scenes that are happening because they need to doesn't mean
you need to see them to know that they're working.
And so you mentioned Cleya, Mary, and you know, and
I think of even people like Willman and you know,
all of those people behind the scenes. And of course,
you know there's the little easter egg of secret cargo

(12:23):
from rebels that kind of builds into this whole thing too,
you know. And so we're putting our trust into things
that we can't see. And you know, it's call it hope,
call it faith, call it whatever you want to. In
the rebellion and in that greater cause of things that
I think is truly something that hits me really hard.
And I know just from watching Rogue one, it was

(12:46):
another one of those things where it was like, oh
my gosh, like all of these sacrifices that were made
that we never saw. It makes, you know, Luke complaining
about going to Tashi station to pick up power converters,
you know, and this kid, like all of the sacrifices
that had been made up to that point on his
behalf to be able to go forward and take those

(13:07):
final steps. And it's just it's eye opening, Mary, It's
it's pivotal. It's all of these things that we're talking about,
and it all comes down to that that that.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
Word of trust, which is so which is so hard
with all the dynamics. So play go ahead, Mary Well.

Speaker 4 (13:25):
One of the things that I had written down when
I did my rewatch yesterday was Luthan said to man,
we've all been bent by secrecy, which is exactly what
all three of us have just talked about.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Bent is a good word to describe that. It's it's
so and Clia, I think I could do a whole
podcast just on Claia, Like not just an episode, but
it's a whole way. She's just brilliant and she really
is the backbone of everything, which is so cool. Jay,
what's the next conversation that you would like to bring

(14:01):
up from Welcome to the Rebellion?

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Well, I think building on that idea of trust and
just putting your faith into things that you don't know
what the outcome is going to be. For example, just
witnessing the birth of K two, you know, and watching
that whole sequence with here Cassian had witnessed these k

(14:24):
extroids wreaking complete destructive havoc on Gorman and throwing people
and throwing things and just the sheer might of this,
and then he's like, hey, we I've got all the pieces,
let's do this. And then as soon as K two
wakes up, you know, Cassie's ready. But yet there was
also that layer of trust there and as we know,

(14:48):
they became the best of friends. So taking a leap
of faith in that trust, I think is a big
message in this too. And you know, and again you know,
as I've called it before, call it faith, call it
whatever you want to call it. And you know, also
putting aside fear and walking through the fear instead of

(15:11):
avoiding the fear, I think is a big, big part
of this episode as well.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Absolutely very well said thanks, and I saw mine. I
want to build on that, but I think you pretty
much nailed it. I don't know that I want to
talk about My word was symbolism or symbolic? Uh, And boy,

(15:39):
it must be time for me to go back to
school because symbolism was jumping everywhere to me when this opens. Uh,
there's a scene where there's a lot of scenes of
the Senate excuse me, from a little bit far away,
and it's I don't think I've ever noticed so prominently
how this thing is hovering above water. Well, I want

(16:01):
to talk about water on Welcome to their Bike, because
water is one of the one of the premiere symbols
in literature of baptism, of rebirth, of change. When the
episode starts, and I'm gonna pull it up here on
my monitor while we're chatting, it's dark and you get

(16:24):
to see, like you see the the beneath like a
reflection of the Senate building. And to me, that's because
the Senate is a reflection of what it was originally
intended for. It's a farce. There's no diplomacy, there's no
true political manifestation of what the galaxy wants going on.

(16:50):
It's a it's it's not happening, it's it's a reflection
of what it was supposed to be. The rain is
sprinkling down, creating these beautiful puddles that continue just to
circulate throughout this pond itself because the water of the
change is somewhat stagnant. And it's happening, but it's very,

(17:14):
very slow. There's little puddles because the rebellion that Luthan
has started, and that Canaan, Jerris and everyone has started
in all these different pods. It's happening slowly around the galaxy,
but nothing has happened yet. And I just and it's
just like a couple of seconds, but I was so
captivated by that. I thought, Wow, everything we need to

(17:36):
know about this episode, about this series is happening in
these few shots of water, and I just loved it.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
That's fantastic. You know another one that comes to mind too,
Dan when you said that is when Cassie and breaks
Man out of the Senate and he steals the speeder
and they bust out of that window. They go out
over water.

Speaker 4 (17:57):
Yep, Well, they actually dip into the water. I was saying, Yeah,
exact same thing.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
And they shake it up. That's the actual baptism, that's
the actual part. Because but for there's other shots of
the water to where it's very very still and nothing
is happening and it's sunny out, because the Empire wants
you to think everything is normal, everything is normal. To
look over here, not it what's happening in Gorman, unless
you give us the side. But when he leaves with
mon and he dips through that water, he dips through

(18:23):
the facade of the Senate and they come out of
it completely changed because whether he knows or not, he's
about to fully commit in the ways he never expected.
And she is a completely different person now, still a leader,
still powerful, but there's no more hidden agendas, there's no
more hiding who she actually. She is reborn and literally

(18:46):
rises to the clouds to find a new trajectory for
herself and the galaxy.

Speaker 4 (18:51):
Yeah, she looks back, you know, through the window, through
the back window. She looks back at the Senate building
and they really down on it, and they really linger
on that. And then as she turns to really face
the camera, basically but as she turns away from the
Senate and looks forward and the look on her face

(19:12):
it's like, yeah, here we go. This is the beginning
of this.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
It's so good. It's and even like talking about it now,
the two of you, I just oh my, I could
babble on and on, but I will spare you. Mary,
what's the next one you have?

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Well?

Speaker 4 (19:27):
Talking of still sort of on the trust and the
secrecy is Erskine. Her aid, And I know people have
said this and other podcasts, and I think Dennis you
and Jay you and Dennis even said something about it
at one point. It's like the casting of the actor

(19:48):
to play Erskine was so on point with the animated Erskine,
and it's like it was kind of crazy, but we
we don't. I guess I don't really sort of know
that he's part of Luthen's group and he's been watching
Overman since the wedding. But when she finds out, she

(20:11):
feels so betrayed, and she says she knows about being betrayed,
but he never leave. Even though she tells him to leave,
kicks him out, he still never leaves her side. Metaphorically,
he is always there, within touch with Claya or in

(20:33):
touch with Luthen. He immediately figures out who Cassian is.
I'm not sure. I don't remember if they've ever seen
one another up to that point. But once Cassian says,
you know, I have friends everywhere, then they're off and
ready to roll, and he's he's always there, He's right there.

(20:55):
And then, as Jay said before rolling right into season three,
episode eighteen, Secret Cargo of Rebels, you know, he has
not left her side. So I don't know that we
really paid that much attention to Erskine up to this point.

(21:17):
You know, I guess that shows a good caretaker, good
protector that they're in the background, they're in the shadows,
and when we need them is when we see them.
And I think that's what happened with him during this
entire episode.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
And there's a comfort to that in the midst of
all this chaos.

Speaker 4 (21:38):
I think, Yeah, she goes back to him. I mean,
she realizes the look on her face when she sees
him again after everything that has transpired getting her out
of the Senate building. It's like a bulb, just you know,
an epiphany. I see what you were doing, I understand.
I forgive you and thank you. Even though she didn't

(22:00):
say any of those words. It seems like that's what
transpired between them, just know, with a look.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
And isn't it funny that as pivotal as these two
are to both seasons of van Or, I believe this
is the first time they're on screen together. Oh really
it must be because she didn't recognize him.

Speaker 4 (22:19):
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Think so yeah, wow, you know. It just it makes
me think, as you're talking about this, and it's kind
of an underlying thing what we've been talking about with Hope,
you know. And I go back to that quote that
Leah says, Hope is like the son. If you only
believe it when you see it, you'll never make it
through the night. And so to your point, Mary, as
you were saying about Erskine, you know, and again all

(22:46):
of these other things that were happening without knowledge of
either man or you know whoever. I mean, even Bail
knew a lot of things, and he understood how important
Mon was to this whole effort and that he needed
to stay behind. Like She's like, come with me, come
with me, and he says, no, I need it's we're

(23:06):
not ready yet, Yobbin's not ready yet. I need to
stay here. There's still work to do. Even though she
so desperately wanted his support and all of that, he
knew that there were still more things to take care of.
And I don't know if either one of you have
read the Alexander Fried novel The Mask of Fear, but

(23:28):
oh my gosh, it is incredible, and you know, and
you appreciate so much more. I think too, everything that's
happening here versus what you see in the novel, and
just how everything sort of even ties together even better.
But yeah, Bail is another one that for me is
just such a standout, and I'm so grateful that we

(23:49):
have been able to explore more of his story, his
character arc, you know, everything that that he's he's gone through.
But it's interesting that at one point in this uppisode,
when Bail had set up the extraction team for mon
and she says, do you trust them? And he says, well, well, yeah,

(24:10):
as much as I can. She's like, if you ever
met them? He said, well, I can't so, But then
she asks him the same question in Rogue one, and
you know, can you trust this informant? Meaning Leah? I
would trust her with my life, so you know, I
just I get the chills when I think about Bail
and you know, the relationship that that he's built within

(24:32):
the rebellion and the role that he's played again kind
of behind the scenes sort of a thing. And then
when we realize the speech that Leah gives in a
New Hope, you know, my father, all of the things,
you know, it's just it's oh, it gives it so
much more weight.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
And I just ersk In, as you initially put out, Mary,
I connect he And that's why I brought up casting early,
because I connect them together, because the some of them
are together. It's so unique because Erskine and man Mathma
have this bond. And when mon Mathma says that this
is the most what does she say, betrayed she's ever

(25:11):
felt in her life. And she says, and that's saying
something and we know, like that's heartbreaking. And you see
he doesn't fight it. He respects her so much that
he won't even defend himself because he knows, in his
heart of hearts, he believed he was doing it for
the right thing. Whereas Cassian doesn't really know these people,
but he just you get the sense that he has
a sense. You know, which may be something that Bicks

(25:33):
has sort of leaned into, which ties into when they
had that encounter with that force healer earlier in the season.
But it's so cool and Erskine, as you mentioned, is
cast perfectly. Every time I hear his name, I sort
of chuckle because that's the same name of the doctor
in Captain America that gives Steve Rogers the super Soldier serim.

(25:55):
It's even spelled the same. So that just kind of
throws me.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Oh wow, I never made that connection.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, either, love that, Jay. What's the next one you
w would like to ring up for us? Well?

Speaker 2 (26:08):
For Cassian, you know again, he's he's just so he
keeps saying I'm done, I'm done, I'm out, I'm done,
and he keeps saying, even to Luthen, he says, I've
done all of this on my terms, and Luthen's like,
what have you really? You've been everywhere I've needed you
to be. And so in some ways I feel for

(26:29):
Cassian because he thinks he has autonomy in this whole thing,
and he thinks he has ownership of all of the
things that that he's done. And in some ways, yes,
he does, but in other ways he really doesn't. And
I think for Cassian he's at a point right now
again a pivotal point where yeah, he wants to be done,

(26:52):
but why does he want to be done Because he
wants to to give it all up so he can
be with Picks. You know. He even tells her we
can go way, like we can leave this place, we
can go away. I'm done now, I'm out of this.
I'm gonna I'm gonna tell Draven in the morning before
it gets too complicated and we're out of here. But
everyone realizes what a role he plays, so he's almost

(27:16):
like to borrow the term the chosen one for the
rebellion in ways that you know, Anakin was the chosen
one for the Jedi in the Force, and there were
things that come along with that that you really don't
want to have to do, but yet you know you're
you're thrust into this position. And so for Cassian, it's

(27:38):
so difficult for him because yes, he wants to do
the right things and he wants to to contribute, but
it all kind of started by accident for him, and
he got into the sort of by accident, and now
he's he's in it to win it literally, and it's
not until you know Bicks leaves that he's I think
he's finally all in, So again, a very pivotal point

(28:01):
for him.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
It's a great point. There's the whole thing with BIS,
I think is an important ask for this. And when
I'm watching this and Cassie is saying these things you
talked about, I don't ever believe that he believes it,
but I think he wants to believe it, and I
think he's trying to convince himself. But she knows when

(28:23):
she left him, I guess we was talk about now.
When she left him. The first time I saw it,
I felt it was just sort of like out of nowhere,
and it kind of bothered me. But as I've rewatched this,
I realized now they were planning seeds. And what she's
doing is showing more love than most people could do,
because she's willingly saying, as much as I love you,

(28:46):
the empire has to stop. And you were such a
key cog in this machine that if I take you away,
it's not going to last. That's how important he is.
And I don't know if I ever really appreciated that
until I watch this. For our conversation today, she is
willingly giving up her family and to reunite with him

(29:06):
because she I think she wants to believe that they
will reunite. Of course, she wants to believe that. We
sadly know how tragic that is. And as a side note,
I've never been of someone who ships, and I never
thought that jenn Ursou and Cassie were going to be
a couple. So this just solidifies that there was just
just a mutual love and respect on a human level

(29:26):
because of what they were fighting for at the end
of Rogue one. But this is why it sets up
the heartbreak at the end, and I'm gonna spoil one
of my future ones, I guess, sort of but ties
into what I think. Was it you Mary that brought
up K two being built or was it uj I
can't remember, it was Jay At the end, after she

(29:49):
gives her monologue and he's running around looking for her
and realizing that she's gone. The first thing that we
are given is K two, and that K two, it's
like a passing of the torch. This relationship leaves and
then this inanimate object, this you know, cybernetic machine comes

(30:12):
to life and it imprints on Cassie looking at him
first like a baby duck and comes into the world
with violence with a blaster, put it at him where
his Bix sleeves with love. And it's just kind of
cool because it makes when when K two dies in road,
Wanner is I guess expired or whatever, I know if

(30:33):
he can die, But it makes it even more sad
because in many ways, this this arnery, violent DROI that's
honest to a fault sort of takes doesn't take the
place of Bicks, but it is the closest thing he
has to companionship once bicksleeves, and it happens instantaneously, and

(30:57):
that really hit me on this viewing as well.

Speaker 4 (31:00):
But the first thing he says is hello, and the
last thing he says is goodbye. It's crazy, good call, excellent.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
You're breaking my heart Mary, Oh my gosh. Yeah. K
two is definitely one of my favorite drills in all
the Star Wars for sure. But you know, and it
hits home even more too that you realize how short
lived their relationship was, because I mean, you get the
sense in Rogue one that they've been together for years
because they're just so seamless as you know, a relationship

(31:28):
even though, you know, Cassie constantly gives k two gruff
about everything and k T just takes it. But I mean,
they're just like the odd couple. You know, they're just
like an old married couple, and you think that they've
been together for so long, but they just they just
fit like two crazy little puzzle pieces that were just
meant to fit together. Right.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely, Oh gosh, I want to talk a
little bit more about symbolism. Uh, there are two I'm
going to bring up, just because I know that we're
we're we're short on time and there's so many things
to talk about. I really like the scene. It's let's see,
I wrote it down. It is at thirteen. If you

(32:10):
watch this episode in go to the timestamp thirteen ten.
It's an image of Luthen standing in his black cape
or cloak underneath the Senate building on the very left,
and Man Mathma is walking away dressed in white. Because
they have very different approaches to how they're handling things,

(32:32):
the same goals in mind, but very different tactics, and
it just kind of shows how lonely and isolated they
both are. But Man Mathma in her white garb is
still very much on the side of relationships, where Luthen
is really based on results. I don't think he's anti relationship.
I just think that he has chosen a different way

(32:55):
to make things happen. And you need him, you need him,
you need his approach. But I'm constantly fascinated by that
juxtaposed with it at the end, when Cassian wakes up
in bed and he's out of focus and the side
of the bed where Bicks was is completely clear, and
he reaches out and she's not there, And I love

(33:18):
that because it isn't until he realizes that she's gone
that he comes into focus. And I think that was
the point, right he she believes he can't be focused
on the rebellion, which he has to be a part of,
because he's split. And then once he realizes and she's gone,
he has to focus on a different thing. And it's

(33:38):
even so cool that he's standing in the in the
circle of their of their home, and he's completely centered
with life behind him flourishing, but he can't But he's
only there because he can't go inside the home, because
his home is out there, allowing for the galaxy to
experience nature and life and all of it. Glory.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Wow, that's I mean incredible, And I didn't even think
about the focus and the camera work, but I mean
this entire series cinematically speaking in the way that they've
done things is just mind blowing. And so that focus
that you talk about is so incredibly poignant for this episode. Absolutely.
And you know, and Mary we were talking about, you

(34:24):
know your shirt that you're wearing with the with the
and or symbol. I mean, that's exactly what Cassine is
representing when he's standing in that circular doorway of his home,
you know, and it's it's standing on the precipice of
whatever his future you know, ends up actually being, which
is is crazy to think about. But you know your

(34:44):
your point, Dan, with the black versus the white, when
to touch upon that just really quickly, so and I understand,
and I totally get where you're coming from on that,
because you know, Luthen has always been in the shadows,
and so it makes sense you know that he's he's
wearing this darker color. But yet the only time that
Mon is covered up, I guess she could say from

(35:06):
her white garb is when Cassiane is trying to get
her out of the sunate and he puts that coat
over top of her to kind of hide that. But yet,
how do we see her represented Usually in her character,
she's always wearing white, you know, and Leyah is the
same way. She is very often wearing white, and so

(35:26):
you know, white as a symbolism of purity and hope
and wisdom, you know, and all of those things. So
I think that's an excellent point to symbolism that you
made with all of those things.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
Absolutely well, thank you. And building on that cloak thing,
when she and Cassiane finally lead the Senate building, she's
got the blue garbon that all the sunders have and
she tosses it off and I think she steps on it.
What a great symbol that is, getting rid of this
pretend concept of liberty and walking a new path right

(35:58):
before she goes through the water. Boy, thank you for
coming to my nerdy ted talk.

Speaker 4 (36:03):
Love it and just taking the and or symbol one
step forward. I mean, if you look at it, it
eventually morphs into the rebellion symbol, so that all rolls together.
But yeah, every time I see he had that that
one set where he's standing in the in the center there,
and the fact that they made that a circle at

(36:25):
the entry the home, this sort of all round the
entry as a circle. I mean, it's just there's a
lot to that, I think, to show that everything's coming around.
We're all, you know, they're all in it together and
so forth.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
There's a lot of Tolkien in that too. It reminds
me a lot of some things in Lord of the Rings.
That's interesting. Interesting, All right, Mary, we probably only have
time for one more each. What is the top thing
we have been discussed that you'd like to bring up?

Speaker 4 (36:54):
Oh, my gosh, I know, you know. I think the
fact that once they Cassi in gets Mon to the
safe house, she recognizes that he has been here before,
that he's familiar with this place, and he's comfortable with
this place. And she says, I'm not sure how to

(37:18):
thank you, and he says, make it worth it, and
you know, and then from there he's taken Willman back
to Yavan and K two s o Tavan and and
so that that kind of goes one way. But then
we're told that the Gold Group is going to be

(37:42):
responsible for getting Mon to y'all, because I know a
lot of people were concerned that that was not going
to mesh up with Cannon and with Rebels, as we
mentioned before, and so one of the things that we did,
like it was funny the first time we watched it,
Chas and I were sitting there knowing what was coming up,

(38:02):
knowing that the speech was, that we'd gone through the
speech and they were getting them on out and both
being huge fans of Rebels that we're like, okay, how
is this going to roll in together? Because we had
like a couple of days before that actually aired that
three arc air and I sat down and watched Rebels.

(38:25):
I'm like, okay, let me see if I can watch this,
you know, mesh together. And then right after that those
three episodes were over with, I rolled right into Rebels.
I went right back to watch it again, and they did.
They really did a seamless kind of you know, right
into into the next thing. But you know that the

(38:47):
whole one of the other things that have just been
a sort of a ribbon and a ripple through all
of these has always been again, We've done this, and
I've sacrificed this, and like Luthen saying, a sunrise I'll
never see and it's always sort of on the next

(39:09):
group of we've done this, so make sure what we
have done is not in vain and it has been
worth it. I think we saw that in Rogue one,
and we see it all the way, you know, into
a new Hope, and and to roll through, like to
finish up and Or and to roll right into Rogue

(39:31):
one and then from there roll right into a new Hope.
It's like a whole new trilogy to to to sort
of consume and look at very differently. As they all
were saying, as they were doing their pressors, you know,
prior to prior and while and Or was being shown,
it's like, you're going to see all of this differently,

(39:52):
and and so cass In saying, make it worth it?
I think that's one of the things that probably stuck
with Man all the way through to Return of the Jedi,
you know, and beyond. You know, are we making it
worth it? Or are we doing what we need to

(40:15):
do to pit us all into a better place.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
It's such a great line. It's so perfectly placed that
I think we all needed that. I'm so glad that
you spotlighted. And I'm also glad because I haven't rewatched
that episode of Rebels yet since I've seen these and
now you're making me realize this is appointment viewing because
it's so important. Plus the fact that Genevieve O'Reilly is
man Mathma in both iterations of the character, I think

(40:42):
gives it even more credibility and more more pathos.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Totally agree. Yeah, And what a great job Mary of
highlighting that is Dan's said. And again it's passing the torch,
as you said, Dan, you know, making it worth it,
making the sacrifices of those that came before you count
for those that come after you. Even and I'm so
glad that Genevieve ol Riley got a chance to portray
this on screen because, as we know, her portrayal of

(41:09):
my Mathma was cut from Revenge of the Sith, and
so now she's she's really getting that spotlight, which I
just I'm so so thankful for that.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
And she, as I said last week, I deserved and
should have gotten an Emmy nomination for Best Chris.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
I mean exactly, no question today. Yes, well, diego Luna. Really,
I mean you've got a whole star studded cast here.
I mean Stalin scars Guard, I mean they've all Denise Gau,
I mean they've all just been Kyle Stoler, amazing, amazing,
But of course we're just a little bit biased, I
guess when it comes to when it comes to that
kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
It's true we are biased, But I also think that
we're discerning critics and that we know good work when
we see it. I mean this, we love Star Wars,
obviously wouldn't dedicate so much of our lives to it.
But and or stands out out as the stake of
Star Wars. You know, it really is, it really is.

(42:07):
It's another level. Well, Jay, what is the last one
that you want to bring up? What key idea have
we not talked about do you think needs to be discussed.
I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
But little things matter, okay, and little little things can
make big differences. And when I say that, I just
mean the fact that again, you know, going back to
that idea of so many people working together behind the scenes,
and how all of these threads are interwoven into this
amazing tapestry of what is eventually the rebellion and able

(42:42):
to bring peace to the you know, better peace to
the galaxy. Is it ever really in peace? But you know,
but the idea again, you know, the whole focus thing.
When we first get to Yavin, it's very blurry, and
then you see everything become very clear, and that is
going through all of those blasters on the table and

(43:03):
she recognizes one and she says, who belongs to this blaster?
And then you just see Melchi just kind of over here.
And I love that because not only is it's like,
oh yeah, Melchi, you know, we're getting more Rogue one
tie ins, but the fact that it's the blaster that
Cassian used during the Aldanni heist and then gave it

(43:25):
to Melchi again, it's like passing that torch. And it's
those little things that those little things that matter, and
you know, and you can't discount one small thing just
because and that was even mentioned in here too. You
know that small small things make big differences. I can't
remember who said it or where it was said, but

(43:45):
at any rate, you know, just that idea that everything
is tied together and everything matters.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, everything matters. Every every ripple to go back to
the beginning, has a connection to something else. I'm so
glad you brought up that connection too. That's I don't
think I realized that it's been so long since I
watched Season one or I saw Rogue one, but it's
been a few years. I, to my detriments, I have

(44:17):
big gaps when I watch these because I maybe it's
because of being a teacher and reading certain books every
year for what seems like the majority of my life,
and I become desensitized to them on occasion, and I
don't ever want that to happen. But that's just me.
So I'm so grateful that you both are bringing in
these connections I think are so pivotal to embrace in

(44:40):
this overall mythology itself. So I appreciate that the last
thing I want to bring up hasn't been talked about
really yet in its mon Mathmaus speech. So I knew
one was coming. We all knew one was coming, And
the first time I watched it, I thought I was
taken out of it a little bit. I thought, Okay,

(45:02):
here's the speech. Undoubtedly when this was being written, when
Genevieve O'Reilly studied it and prepared to perform it, they
knew the gravitas of what was being expected on This
was just a key inciting incident, a climactic moment actually
not inciting, but a climactic moment in the history of
Star Wars and what it means to break off from

(45:23):
the Empire. So it's almost like watching it through JADEDI saying, Okay,
now they're going to tell us the speech, and I
wasn't into the moment, even though I appreciated its power.
But then I got over myself and realized, Okay, don't
think about what is the power the magnitude of this,

(45:45):
and embraced the magnitude of this, if that makes sense,
and I had goosebumps. The language, the performance, her moderate
but important gesticulations with her hands towards the end, and
how they super impose it with everyone's reactions in the
ISP frantically trying to cut the power and cut off

(46:06):
the feats that people won't see this because they know
this is going to be a spark that's going to
light a massive fire of change that the Emperor doesn't want.
I guess I wish that Palpatine would have somehow They
would have at least given us a shot of Ean
McDermid during this, although he's not in this series, which

(46:26):
I think is unfortunate, but maybe they thought it would
sort of take away from the level of verisimility that
is contained in this because the force isn't a big
deal in and or it really isn't besides that force
healer conversation. So I guess what I'm trying to say
is what are you trying to say? Dan? What I'm
trying to say is this speech is very on the

(46:50):
nose and very important. And the more I think about it,
the more I watch it, the more it moves me.
I guess, you know, like when I I'm watching something,
I don't want to think, oh, they're going to be didactic.
This is a key thing I'm supposed to pay attention
to because that takes me out of it, and I
started thinking about how it's made. But when I get
rid of that and I just watch it, the impact

(47:12):
is unforgettable. Does that make any sense at all?

Speaker 4 (47:15):
Well, as Jay said, it's pivotal, Yeah, I mean it
is a pivotal moment. And when one of the notes
that I made watching it again yesterday was the music
while she is giving that speech, how the music starts
here and as she becomes more adamant about what she's

(47:35):
saying and she's putting her feelings into it, the more
the music increases to a crescendo kind of a thing.
And then as soon as you know, she says, you know,
Emperor Palpatine, it's like the music stops, everybody stops, the
feed goes down. It's like everything just stops at one time,

(47:55):
and you know, both what we are seeing as a
viewer and what's happening you know there, and yeah, it's
like that is the pivotal moment, that is when everything
shoves a whole new direction for the rebellion.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm glad you brought up the music
because I noticed that as well. And as you said,
the crescendo and then it just stops. And I get
goosebumps too, Dan, just listening to this, and I love
the way that they orchestrated this with bail enacting article.
It was at two point fifty two, and he even
like repeats, okay, this is you don't interrupt a senator, YadA, YadA, YadA.

(48:37):
And then as man is starting to speak, you can tell,
I mean, we saw some of the scenes before that
of her practicing in this and she's pacing back and forth,
and so you know, she was painstakingly making sure that
the words that she chose were the right words to say,
and I pulled something out. It's just the death of

(48:58):
truth is the ultimate victory of evil. And she calls
the Gorman mask her unprovoked genocide. She calls it right out,
and then the senators are starting, you know, there's a
buzz somemer with her summer against her. And then she
goes on to say, when truth leaves us, we become
vulnerable to monsters. And then as you said, Mary calling
out the largest monster of all, Emperor Palpatine. But you know,

(49:20):
as you mentioned, Dan Palpatine's absence is kind of felt
in this way. And you know, and and Dennis and
I are actually rewatching the Clone Wars and we're on
the Mandalor Park with Duchess Setne and there's a scene
where you know, the Palpatine is basically saying, we're going
to just you know, vene on your behalf because this

(49:42):
is the best thing for you. But yet and I
love the fact though that when mons Pod goes out
into the center, it's.

Speaker 5 (49:50):
So slow you're just waiting to hear exactly what she's
going to say, and she again is just balancing over
this precipice almost of either this is going to go
the way she wants it to, or she's going to
crash and burn.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Either way, it's going to make a big difference. And
as luther In said, it will burn very brightly, and
indeed it did.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Well. Wow, well said thank you for coming to Jay's
ted talk. That was brilliant. That was cool. That was cool.
I like that too. You made me think about how
it's framed as well from the shop from above, and
it's hard not to think about Yoda and Palpatin fighting
in that chamber, you know, a decade more than a
decade before that. Yeah, I the speech. I think I

(50:38):
love characters that just shine the light on truth. She
had to hide for so long that as she tossed
out that Senate code after the speech, she's unshackled and
unburdened from hiding under this lie. Look, the truth matters,
whether you like it or not. The truth is real,
and I am not going to hide from nowhere. I'm

(50:59):
going to all out what needs to be said. And
there need to be truth tellers in the Yacks, there
need to be truth tailors in the real world. And
it's just so, it's just incredible, and at that moment
in Jay I think what you just said made me
realize this. I never would have said this before, but
I see Mon Mathma as an equal to Palpatine in

(51:19):
power and influence in prestige. One is through honesty and
compassion and a vision for a better tomorrow, and one
is all about himself. And boy, oh boy, is that amazing.
It just it elevates Mon Mathma, who's already just an incredible,
unforgettable character because of Genevieve o'reiley, but it elevates her

(51:42):
to a level that I'd not considered before. So thank
you for giving me that perspective.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Oh well, you're welcome, And I feel like I'm with
you though. As far as her equality in that way,
even though you know we've never thought about that before,
it truly is, and it's just wow, yeah, good.

Speaker 4 (52:00):
Stufff for them to take what really seemed like such
a minor and was a minor character in Return of
the Jedi, and you know, we know she's a leader.
We can tell that she's a leader in that movie,
but we don't know. I mean, you know, we're just
following our core three people, you know, through through their

(52:23):
original trilogy. And then for them to pick her back
up pick up that character and then really show how
important she was through everything is wonderful storytelling, and there
were so many great interviews and during all the press,

(52:45):
I mean they they did pressers from a week before that,
you know, it dropped until two weeks after and or
finished like they were continually. And I know it was
because they're prepping up for the Emmys and and so forth.
But I think they really enjoyed being together and I
think they really enjoyed telling their stories. And when Genevieve

(53:08):
O'Reilly talks about how she approached that speech and all
that went into it and how I guess at first
perhaps it wasn't going to be truly written but just
sort of alluded to. And I think she was the
one who really it got them to She's like, you

(53:30):
have to write this speech. I have to I have
to give this entire speech. This is important. And then
how you know, being by herself basically her and the
crew as she gave it on a green screen in
that pod. I mean, it's it's makes I think it
makes it even bringing in the real world makes it

(53:53):
even more amazing to watch on the screen.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Yeah, how it was made for sure, and I'm glad
that they did make that choice, because I feel like
sometimes our imaginations will make things better, you know, just
because of how we all put our own spin on it.
But I don't think anybody could have made this speech
better than it was because of the impact it had

(54:18):
and how it was performed and written. So bravo.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Yeah, you know to your point too, Mary, I mean
just thinking back to return to the Jedi when we
first got our first glimpse of man Mathma, and all
we got was many both and died to bring us
this information, and then she's just kind of like looking
off into the distance and then gets kind of brought
back to reality. Well yeah, at the time, it was like, oh,
that's just so melodramatic, But you know, now you kind
of look at that and you think she's seen a lot,

(54:44):
Like they've been through a lot, I mean, how many.
Like she's just thinking like, here's another sacrifice that's being made,
and how much weight that gives to everything else that's
come before it, you know, and so you just appreciate
that even that little snippet just a little bit more
at least, I know, I.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
Do, yes, absolutely all right, Well, I have a feeling
or I imagine this is going to be universal. But
let's get our letter grades for Welcome to the Rebellion. Mary,
please give us your letter grade and final thoughts.

Speaker 4 (55:19):
Well, I think this one has to be an A plus.
You know, it's just they're so as Jay said again,
it is such a pivotal time. It was so eye
opening for everybody, that fulcrum of all of it, I mean,
the symbolism you know this. I think this episode was
a culmination of one through eight, and then it propelled

(55:43):
us into those last three episodes to get to Rope one,
and that just this episode by itself. I still do
not see how Jenevieva Raley did not get an Emmy
nomination amongst everybody else. But it's it's just master. I
think they edited edited it so craftily that you just

(56:06):
sort of seamlessly went from one thing to the other,
to different viewpoints, and you just sort of saw how
the rebellion was evolving through everyone's experiences.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
It's just such a great episode.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Absolutely here here. I can't disagree with any of that. Jay,
what letter grade? And would you give this, oh.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Spoiler alert, you know a plus as well? And to
echo everything that Mary said, I mean, you were spot
on with everything that you said, and I can't really
add too much more to that other than just that
it was eye opening for me to talk to both
of you as well and to get just even more insights,
because that's one of the things that I truly appreciate
about being able to do podcast episodes and talk to

(56:55):
fellow fans is that, you know, there's so many more
of those insights to be had, and just the revelations
and things. But again, the A plus goes back to
once again, you know, all the things that you said, Mary,
and just the cinematography and the way that everything was presented,
and as you said, Dan, you know, the usage of
the symbolism and the focus versus the non focus, the

(57:16):
music you pointed out, Mary, I mean everything about this episode,
and I mean truly and Or has been a water
cooler kind of a series for Star Wars that I
think everyone that watches the series truly feels that this
is the epitome of good storytelling and the way that

(57:38):
even though there's not lightsabers and there's not the Force
you know, as you said, Dan, except for the Force Healer,
it's still quality storytelling and it's so important to tell
these stories that, you know, I don't know how we
were ever doing Star Wars without them, you know, and
now that we have them, it's just such a gift.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Truly, absolutely, Yes, this is elite storytelling. This is masterful storytelling.
This is art. This, like many of these episodes in
this season, is pure art that has beauty, that has function,
that has meaning, and that advances the overall excuse me,

(58:22):
mythology of Star Wars to an incredible agree. This is
of course an A plus. I'm here with two experienced,
excellent educators, and if I were not going to give
this an A plus, I think you should both take
away my rubric, because come on, it doesn't get better
than that. And yes, I don't know that I would
have believed a while ago that I would enjoy a

(58:43):
Star Wars story as much without Lightsabers, just because I
just love Lightsabers and the Force and all that. But
this is showing us that if you've got good characters
and a good vision and a good story, that's what
you need. And that's what we have here with is
x bllan excellent episode. Listening to Coffee with Kenoby, you

(59:05):
are with Denzi the podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
This is.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Mary h.

Speaker 5 (59:19):
Jay.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
It is such a pleasure to share the microphone and
share a cup of coffee here on coffee with Kenobe,
with the both of you. Mary, thank you again as
always for being who you are. You know what you
bring to Star Wars fandom and just your support of
me and the show. I can never thank you enough
for that, and I would please let everybody know we're

(59:40):
the best places to reach out and chat with you
about all things Star Wars.

Speaker 4 (59:44):
Well, I'm always lurking around on coffee with Kenoby's you know,
CDWK cafe. Obviously on Instagram, I'm probably the most active
and that's.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
Just Mary in chaz m A r y n c
h A z Z.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
And I'm on Twitter x some not a lot, but
it's just Mary Purdue and it's like the chicken p
E R d U eat, not the universities what I
tell people. But I'm always lurking around on CWA Cafe,
So anytime anybody wants to do a private message or whatever,
I'm there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
I love it. And Jay again, it's been far too
long since we had you on the show, but I
love reconnecting and chatting with you, getting your insights. And
also I mean I remember the very first Celebration podcast stage.
Coffee with Kobe was the very first podcast to be
on the Star Wars Celebration podcast stage, and I remember
you helping me and Corey passing out prizes, and you've

(01:00:43):
always been such a great blessing to me. I truly
appreciate that. Please let everybody know where they can find
you in podcast artists.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
You bring warm feelings to my heart. Dan, Oh my gosh. Yeah,
those are some great memories for sure, and so thank
you again for having me on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
Mary.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
It was wonderful to talk to you as well. And
anytime you want to hit me up to come on
the show, Dan, please do so because it's always such
a pleasure. But you can most easily find me a
couple of different places. So on the podcast with my
amazing co host Dennis Keithlee, we are at podcast Stardust
and all the usual suspects. So Facebook, Instagram, you can
download and listen to all the shows on everywhere from

(01:01:19):
Spotify to YouTube, music and Audible and everywhere in between.
And then if you want to catch up with my
cosplay adventures, you can also check out my Instagram page
at j Dot Snip's cosplay. So you know, I do
Ahsoka from the Clone Wars, two different versions of Hara
Poor Sister Inquisitor, my original concept Mandalorian is and much
much more so. Right now, taking a little break for

(01:01:41):
the summertime and some travel and that type of thing.
But we'll be firing up to cosplay train here come
late August, early September. But you can always find my
work over there.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
And Jay's cosplay is elite. Even if she wasn't a
good friend of mine, I would still say this without bias.
She is an A plus first, I mean, there's no
out about that. You got to follow on Instagram.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Wow, that means a lot, Dan, thank you so much, seriously,
that that means a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
or Lucasfilm Limited. It is intended for entertainment and informational
purposes only. The official Star Wars website can be found
at www dot star Wars dot com. Star Wars, All names, sounds,
and any other Star Wars related items are registered trademarks
and or copyrights of Disney and their respective trademark and
copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the

(01:02:28):
intellectual property of Copy with Kenobi, unless otherwise indicated.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
This is the podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 4 (01:02:34):
There's no one here on

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