CWK Show #831: Andor- "Make It Stop"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, this is John Jackson Miller, Star Wars author.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
You're listening to coffee with Kenobi with Dan Z. This
is the podcast you were looking for.

Speaker 3 (00:07):
I think we used up all the perfect everything. You
stand for.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Freedom scarce here freedom.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
You don't want freedom, you want chaos, chaos for everyone.
But you ruin the galaxy and then run back to
your ridiculous wig. Everything's under control.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
That's a bold statement.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
I expect to have him ready for interrogation by tomorrow night.
You waited for my day off. I couldn't risk a leak.
How ironic.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
I need to know you're making a choice. I lived
most of my life without ever realizing that that was
a possibility.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
This is Vanessa Marshall Harrison Dula from Star Wars Rebels,
and you're listening to coffee with Kenoby.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
We are getting so close to the end. Maybe that's
what Luthan thought in this episode. Hello friends, my name
is Dan's Air, the host of Coffee with Kenoby. Today.
On this episode, we are going to discuss the tenth
episode in season two of and Or. The episode is
entitled make It Stop. But we don't want this next

(01:21):
guy to stop. We have loved him both as a
frequent guest of coffee with Kenoby, but more importantly on
his own wonderful podcast, the Robo Based Card Podcast. There
and Only, Greg and Gloughlin. Greg, welcome back to the show.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Well, thank you for having me. And I love the
fact that you have been taking this I think the
the low and slow and the right approach, I think,
And it was a pleasure to get the call up.
We've been traveling a lot and so it's nice to
be home. But I'm kind of excited to talk about
this one and especially this last arc, especially hearing what

(01:58):
you have to say, because you're such a big story
guy and doing all the you know, like doing what
you do for a living. I'm kind of excited to
hear your thoughts on some of this.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well. I mean, I always love to chatting with you, naturally,
But I remember I think I was on your and
or season two overall review with with with Doctor Cass Yes,
and if memory serves, and I could be wrong, I
remember you talking about this episode, specifically the flashbacks, and

(02:32):
maybe it didn't hit you in quite the same way
that I think it did me, And I thought, well,
this would be great because I love the discourse I
love the conversation and I know you'll have excellent insights,
so I'm really looking forward to it. But before we started,
I've got to get your one word and overall sort
of reactions to the episode before we dive it, dive

(02:55):
into it more closely.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, thank you, and yes, I'm kind of excited to
talk about those flashbacks. When I got the call up,
I was saying like, all right, you know, like a
lot of times you kind of give your grades or
your words on the fly, and I'm like, all right, no, no, no,
I've been on coffee with Kenobi, you know, enough times
to go. Look, I'm gonna really think this through. And
I could see there is a word that really comes
to mind, because I think how the show is paced

(03:18):
would lead to the obvious one. I'm not I got
to bring I gotta bring the good stuff. So I'm
going to go with relationship because I do think that
this one really, if you take this episode in and
of itself, really shows the relationship between Clia and Luthen,
and with the added flashbacks adds that extra, you know,

(03:40):
because essentially she's got her mission is to kind of
you know, take him out and him because of what
he might know or what they might get, and it
really adds to that. And so you see over the
course with the flashbacks, of course you see how their
relationship started and how it ends really But I do
think that that to me when I was looking at overall,

(04:01):
like I could say, you know, I could say certain
ones and you might allude to this of how that
was paced and all that. But I do think that
at the end of the day, that's the word I was.
I kind of took away from it very good.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
I think this one sort of came to me right away.
And usually I use some sort of hyperbolic explanation of
how I feel about it. I don't feel like it's
going to happen or my word is tragic. This is
some really tragic personal episode. Will the Gorman massacre certainly

(04:38):
is the show stealer the most, as I've said, one
of the most powerful episodes of television I've ever seen.
I would argue that this tragic one hit me in
a very different way because it was much more personal. Well,
while seeing that people of Gorman suffer like that was devastating,
this is different because we know Luthan, we know Claya,

(05:03):
and we know Dandra in a very different way, and
this is just the beginning of her end. But the
emotional wallop that this packs, because there's an interconnectivity, a
parasocial relationship we have with Luthen and Claia, I think
makes this one so powerful and profound for me.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
I like that because you know, like first I would
come to mind and saying, you know, like the tension
really gets carried through there. That was the word that
kind of first came to mind. But I do think that,
you know, because everyone kind of know what she's trying
to do or what's coming, you know, and it gets
punctuated by those those flashbacks. I think it's really one
of those where at the end you're starting to wonder,

(05:51):
you know, is it going to happen? Is she going
to be able to do it? You know, how is
she going to be able to do it? And you know,
then it really I think for her, I mean, this
is this is like Claya's moment, and then after that
the fallout over the next couple of episodes of this arc. Really,
you know, I think it gets earned in a certain way.
Like I said, you know, we can go back to

(06:13):
my our episode on it to kind of get my
other thoughts on how that ended, but I would say
in this one, right, it is something where it's like
you've seen how much they've built and how much they're
responsible for is to get the rebellion off the ground,
but yet it has to come to a close. You know,
they have to burn everything and then she has to
take him out as it were.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Well, let's I've got a couple of major topics that
I want to bring up, but I'd love to kind
of hear where you'd like to take us first, m.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
You know, just because in revisiting this and this was
I think it was one of the first times I
think I went back through this episode in quite some time.
And you know, at the end when we did our
when we did our kind of our season recap, you know,
feelings on the flashbacks because I think they have been
and you know, we can kind of go back and
forth on how well they've been done in different Star

(07:05):
Wars series and things like that. But at the end,
I think, in and of itself, I think the flashbacks
do support this episode in as far as it really
hits it home. I don't though, feel because I would
I would say, and you may agree with me or not.
You know, real Estate Star Wars TV real estate time

(07:26):
is incredibly important. You know, it comes at a premium,
especially when you see some of the other series that
you know, and War's nice enough that it got to
go almost a full you know, like forty five minutes
to an hour, so we had a lot of story.
There was a lot there. But I do feel at
the end, you know, this arc had a very hard
mission to do, is to try to get us up
to Rope one. And so when I saw at the

(07:48):
end of how maybe some of the characters, especially mon Mathma,
doesn't quite get a lot of screen time at the end,
then I start to kind of look back at these
flashbacks as the show spending currency that later on it
does not have. And I'm not necessarily talking about like
money going into CG and things like that. I'm just
talking about, like, there were a couple of things as

(08:11):
we're watching this series go, especially with myn Mathma, that
I think you could have carried forward, because I still
think there was a little bit there to go. I mean,
she has a great moment in what you know, Welcome
to the Rebellion, all right, friends everywhere, and all that
but she kind of it kind of goes back and
and or gets that gets that front and center. But
in this case, you know, once again we see Luthan

(08:31):
and Dadra right away. It happens and it's almost like, yeah,
you could see this coming. Where they go right to it.
I'm like, all right, they're they're getting this out of
the way so we can do other things. I just
felt that that was time that we could have banked
elsewhere because we already kind of knew that they had
a relationship very close, they were very tight. They worked
in pieces, it could have even been worked in over

(08:52):
the course of the season instead of stacked into this one.
But I do think that this takes away from what
could have been later, even though you know, I love
getting the backstory, which gave more questions and answers, especially
when it didn't know was that Naboo was that? Where
were they at?

Speaker 4 (09:10):
All?

Speaker 2 (09:10):
This kind of stuff. It was fascinating. But I felt
like that could have been a book. It could have
been a great book. Let's get Kevin Scott on it, man,
But I just felt that they went here. I just
think it took a place of something else that I
you know, I was wanting to kind of live in
the now with some storylines that we're in the now,
and so that's that. I think going back over it

(09:31):
to make a long story longer was the thing that
kept coming back to me.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Well, so you made me think about something that I'm
glad you brought up. For one thing. Star Wars historically
doesn't do flashbacks, not really, so the fact that we
have it here. As much as I see what you're saying,
I agree with you that it would be nice to
just live in that present moment. I think I said

(09:56):
maybe on your show that these two in the past
and the formation of their bond and their very unique
familial connection that they have. This I think this was essential.

(10:17):
I think without the flashbacks, I don't care near as
much about Luthen dying other than the fact that he's
someone that I spent a lot of FaceTime with. He's
been an essential part of the and Or series. But
you'd never really see him as a father figure or
a human being. And he's like a machine. He's even

(10:39):
tied up to a machine at the end that he
needs to breathe, which is interesting. There's a night neat
Little Darth Vavor parallel but that's where the parallel ends.
The connection he has with Claya, naming her, naming himself,
that has power, that has meaning. There's a connection there,

(11:01):
but it goes beyond just a simple father and surrogate
father Darth thing. This is about survival. I think her
she doesn't have any innocence, so that isn't rubbing off
on Luthen. But what is rubbing off is she is
the living embodiment of what he witnessed in that tank.

(11:22):
I assume it was a tank of some sort or
some sort of a vessel. And he keeps mumbling and
on the captions, they keeps showing this phrase that he
keeps saying, and I don't know what the phrase is.
I mean, I see the phrase. I don't have I
didn't run it down, but I don't know what the
translation is. But he does keep saying, make it stop,
make it stop. And it's almost like we're watching someone

(11:42):
have a nervous breakdown or a very horrific panic attack,
and all these people are dying. We hear on the
radio feedback over and over again that we don't think
there's anyone left to kill all. Let's bring in the
heavy guns anyway, it's this overkilled, this onslought, this this horrible,

(12:06):
you know, a homicidal explosion, literally and figuratively. It's genocide
for these people, and she is a survivor. And so
at the end of it, there's this great scene where,
like you said, it could be Naboo and early sure
where it is, where he hands her this detonator, sort

(12:29):
of calling her bluff, and I think he's also curious
to see how she'll reacted while I push this detonator.
He takes her to this this this beautiful establishment, and
he wants her to see what she will be throwing away.
There's families, it's gorgeous, there's fine food, there's excellent drink,
and she's yeah, yeah, I see it. I see it,

(12:51):
but I don't think she quite appreciates. And then at
the end, she looks around and she's about to push
and he takes it away and he says to her
something along the lines of I didn't know. I didn't
realize that I actually have a choice. I want you
to see that you have a choice. He lets her
take the choice. I'll be it under very pressure, fieled circumstances,

(13:14):
and then he takes it away from her and not
like Lucy with the football and Charlie Brown, but in
a way to say, Okay, she is committed. She did
choose to do it. I didn't make her do it,
but I'm not gonna let her. It is my job
to form this woman, to teach her to survive. Because
his opinion of the Empire and where the galaxy is
is quite bleak, and understandably so. And he says, I'm afraid.

(13:39):
What I'm afraid of is what I might be doing
to you, and then he form a connection there. Is
it healthy? No? It reminds me sort of if you're
watching the show Dexter. It's how his father kind of
raised Dexter to be who he is now. Dexter and
Clay are very different characters. Thank goodness. I'm saying a
lot of things, but it's fun to see your expressions
as I'm saying certain things.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Up.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
I think that this flashback gives us a different side
of Luthen that was not possible before. We see him
with Claya as a young Well then, and then that's
why move. At the beginning of this episode, when he
tells her to move, we see where that came from.
She gets a smile, and I think it just makes
the ending so much more beautiful and tragically sad.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
I like what you said there, and especially I think
you know, the which part I talk for like twenty minutes,
the structure of these and I would I would agree
that in over the course of the two seasons, you know,
we have really not seen the veil lifted on Luther
very much. I think when we go back to season one,
that one time where he is he's putting his costume
back on and he's he's you know, pantomiming you know,

(14:49):
his you know, when he's in his role as the
curator or whatnot, and then he kind of drops it
for a second. You kind of see it, and you
start to see it at the beginning of this episode
when and you know, he has this monologue about like
you know, or that there's so much information and you
can kind of see he's kind of off a step. Uh.

(15:09):
And but in the first flashback, especially because in the
further you know, like as the three go along, you
start to see like where his you know, like how
he can kind of coach everybody, especially in you know,
in the and or season one he's talking to Cassie
and Ory he's working with like you know, Clay and whatnot.
Where the first one where he's just really sort of

(15:30):
like in shell shock as it were, you know, and
then you know, he sees Claya and as this this
is the one thing I can really I really seem
to have control over. I go, Okay, I like that part,
and I do. I do love I was I was
when I was marching down these lines and I'm going
to brutalize this. Oh you know now is how much
you hate you bank that that's in the second one,

(15:51):
And I really thought that, you know, because she has
this raw emotion of watching that that that firing squad,
and she's like, you know, and he's trying to go,
you need to you need to kind of focus this.
And then especially at last where you know, you know,
look at me and then you know, and then it
blows up and then he kind of goes.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
But I like that.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Like I said, the structure of them are very interesting.
I think it moves him along. I think it does show.
I just think where it is and what it maybe
takes away from and maybe, like I said, maybe i'm
you I'm I'm railing against this because I know what's
happening in episode twelve. But I do think that, you know,
like I said, it's it's odd. I know that sometimes

(16:30):
we've seen flashbacks, you know, good good part of it.
You know, Let's say we go to Acolyte where it's
kind of like, okay, but here so well done written.
I just you know, and I, like I said, in
and of itself, I think it really serves the story. Well,
totally agree with you there. I just do think I go,
you know, when this when that, when when we see
what they chose to choose to put on screen, then

(16:52):
you go, oh, okay, because a lot of times you're
trying to you know, you're trying to dart left and
right where they're gonna go.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Do you find it? Do you find it interrupts the narrative?
I mean you keep maybe not because you keep seeing
you like the structure, But is that why? Because I
think I think it works well, as I've already babbled
on about. But I think this could easily be like
a spinoff where we just see Scars Guard and this
this actor who plays Claya as a young girl. I

(17:22):
think that would be a great spin off to kind
of show the formation of it as well, but I
don't know what, so what do you think?

Speaker 2 (17:29):
You know, it's interesting because in The Acolyte, right, remember
how we kind of go along and then there was
all of a sudden it pulls us out and we
have almost like that, you know, a show based on
you know, earlier years of and you know, you can
kind of go back and forth. And don't get me
started on the cay Ande Monday thing, because that just
really it was like, oh my gosh, that's crazy what

(17:50):
people did not like the story. Don't get no, I
get you. But in this place, yeah, I think I'm
just I think we are. I'm more used to let's
just go forward, because it's it's as soon as you
get snapped back, I think you're like, ah, but what's happening?
And you know it is a way to kind of
move pieces along and you kind of come back to it.
But you know, I think it could have been possibly

(18:12):
could have been served better elsewhere or like anything, let's
go back to, you know, like other shows that you
know sometimes you know, we know that this was supposed
to get many seasons and they kind of truncated it,
and you go, this may have been in maybe this
particular arc. You know, like where earlier on I think

(18:32):
you could go, Okay, I like the how it you know,
it condenses his part. Maybe there's not a whole lot
going on in between, but then you start to go.
Then you start to go, wow, wouldn't have been great
if we got did it have to be twelve? Could
it have been thirteen? Could you've had four episodes instead
of three in an arc? Is does that make an
arc anymore?

Speaker 4 (18:48):
No?

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Because you know, so you start to kind of go.
I think it kind of takes me out a bit
because then I go and I start thinking of logistics
and a whole separate, you know, discussion on TV versus movie,
especially as you know, I just recently watched Thunderbolts. I
gotta watch it on the plane. But because we've been out,
but it's one of those where sometimes I think, maybe

(19:10):
it takes me out a little bit, and then you
start your your your mind starts to wonder otherwise the
show has been, you know, like especially the third arc
was just you're on your seat, is going what's happening?
And maybe it just kind of jerks me out a
bit and I still sit and listen, But yeah, does
if you take that out. Does it mean does it
affect the impact of this? I think it does. I

(19:32):
agree with you on that. I just like I said,
it's a it's a it's a high price to pay.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Later on, I think interesting, interesting, well, gosh, I love that.
I I think I don't know. I I think this
is this. I think this is necessary. I don't think
this story works without the flashbacks because I guess as
I look at it, I don't see it as a
flashback so much as her life with him is flashing

(20:00):
before her eyes because she knows what the endgame is.
And I wrote that it was Claya sacrifice. It's Luthin's sacrifice,
which I want to talk about here in a second,
but it's also claiya sacrifice because she's sacrificed and the
only person who's ever shown her the remotest I mean,
it's like Clay is going to go have a family.

(20:22):
I don't think that's a possibility, because I don't think
that she's in that headspace. But this man was her family.
You couldn't get him more unorthodox family. But this is war,
and she is reliving the most important aspects of the formation,
the fundamental formation of their lives and it just hits me.

(20:45):
In fact, I might say that more than any of them.
This one impacted me more the second time than any
of the other ones. I did not expect that. But
I want to talk about the opening. It's a year later,
everyone is a year later. I still not one hundred
percent convinced that that's an effective a persuader, although I

(21:08):
know that they just want to kind of get to
where we need to go because now we know we're
a year before the Battle of Yavn. It's important. But
Luthen and Deadra meet for the first and last time
this whole series. And by the way, isn't aside isn't
it fascinating that this is called and Or and he
doesn't appear at all in this episode? I even mentioned

(21:29):
and neither is of course en of Vievo Riley because
she's on Yavan. I wanted to I just want to
hear what you thought about that confrontation, because it is
a beat by beats and I watched the performance several
times during this rewatch because I just wanted to drink
it and savor the actors at the top of their

(21:50):
game here, the gamesmanship, the disdain they have for when
I think she hates him because of what he is,
what she believes he is the ultimate flying the ointment
of her precious empire. But I think for him, he
doesn't hate her anymore than any other imperial. It's just
that she is one of the symbols of their flawed

(22:15):
and fascist regime. And it's just a great back and forth.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
I absolutely love this interaction, especially with the build up,
you know, as we kind of see before him where
he seems kind of a bit off of his game
and they're, you know, him and Clay are trying to
discuss what happens next, and then of course, you know,
the door rings and he goes into it, and it's
just this really masterclass. It's kind of it's really great

(22:42):
to see. It's like, you know, when he starts, oh
what an excellent question.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
It starts and you know that your your impression is
good and also jumps into Wada a little bit but
not too much. I love it.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
It's this bad. I thank you this back and forth
between them, because it's a chess match and it goes
really fast, and I think what's nice is you're just
you're not expecting it this fast, and so you're like, whoa,
this is happening and you're wondering, you know, where this
is going to go? How okay? What what? When is
she going to kind of show her in And she's
carrying that case and having having been to the national

(23:15):
you know, sports Collector's convention last week, I saw a
lot of those kind of cases on the show floor
with kids carry on the cards and so forth. But
you know when she's when she finally pulls out the
start path and he goes, okay, Jake, this this is
this is where it starts getting real. That's where I
sort of like, you know, when she kind of asked
him like, you know what, here's real or fake? And
he's you know, he's like but uh yeah, it doesn't

(23:36):
a little like wow. But I did feel that I
think we got the payoff, you know, right, I think
she's been kind of after him. Uh you know it
was going to happen. But I really felt this was
this was this was a top performance of of of
the series. I really liked it. And you know, she's
showing some such great jops. He's just going to town

(23:58):
and uh, you know, it's of nice that they have
this moment by themselves. You know because she, of course
and mistakenly so did not bring in everybody just knock
it out. She wanted to have She wanted a grand
stand a bit. She knew exactly what she was doing.
He knew exactly what she was doing. We kind of
knew exactly kind of what she was doing, but we
still got a habit, and that was a great moment.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Well, and like, as she's getting to it, I think
he knows what she's thinking. So when they're talking about
the value of this little dagger essentially, then she starts
talking about how this big prize is a little damage,
but it tells its value, and it seems to me
clear that she's talking about Lutheran himself. He kind of

(24:39):
does this little exhale, and then she just can't help herself.
They throw away the facade. She's like, I have dreamed
of this so many times. You can't even imagine what
I've been thinking about. And then she gets so mad
at herself because he's there all this time under her nose.
So I'm sure there's a pride thing. But then she says,
you're hiding in the shellter of imperial peace and quiet,

(25:03):
So like these things you say, you hate. You're just
benefiting from our rule over the galaxy, which of course
is a very skewed way of remembering what the Empire
is doing. I think it's important, and just me remember
what I was going to say earlier about the flashbacks.
He says to her, do you want to know why?
In other words, do you want to know why I'm

(25:24):
fighting against the Empire and why I've thwarted you at
every single pass? This is why the flashbacks are important.
Without the flashbacks, we don't have Luthen's why we don't
have clay as why it's not enough to know that
they don't like the Empire. We get that everybody doesn't
like the Empire unless they're imperial to a degree, But

(25:45):
we didn't have We don't know why he hated them.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Now we do.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
We didn't know why she hated them. Now we do.
And the fact that Dadra doesn't want to know about
this man is so profound, you know. He says for
that freedom scares her, and she says, you don't even
know what freedom is, And then they get the imperial

(26:11):
line about you know, it's not you want, You're gonna want.
You want chaos for everyone but yourself you really don't
even understand. It's like everybody in the galaxy is a child, uh,
and they can't handle it. We're going to bring this
or in cast. What they really mean is control in
the removal of freedom, which he shows in the flashback
that he is giving Claya and she he allows her

(26:32):
to choose her path.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
It's interesting that she you know you want chaos, right,
is that it's all about him instead of something greater,
and so she doesn't quite see. But what about the
line that happened that you know that he can sum up.
The rebellion isn't here anymore, it's flowing away. It's everywhere.
There's a whole galaxy out there waiting to discuss you.

(26:55):
I love that you. I love that line. I love
how it kind of like it really surmises in that
sentence where the rebellion is like it's already gone.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
You're too late, it's flown away. It's here, it's there,
it's everywhere now. But and then he punctuate to it,
there's a whole galaxy out there waiting to discuss you,
which I really like a great line. I think it's
a top scene in the entire series. It's just really terrific.

(27:22):
I feel like every episode I'm saying something. I mean,
this is just a great, great series. What's the next
thing you want to talk about on your list?

Speaker 2 (27:31):
Mmm? I was, let's see get back. You know, we
kind of talked, like I said, we talked about the flashbacks.
I think as far as Claya's mission itself, right, because
she has to kind of take herself out, she's watching
him being taken away, and then she has to go

(27:52):
back to the safe house, and then she has to
plan this amazing infiltration, right and at the same time,
Dedre is getting arrested, and I love her sort of reaction,
you know, she she's like, you know, here's here's her
subordinate arresting her. You know, if you kind of go
back and this is really coming full set, Oh yes,
and we'll sort this out. We'll get this sorted. But

(28:16):
I would say, you know, that's where when I when
we talked about like, what's your one word, and I
say tense. I mean that whole sequence of her going
finding the uniform, getting in there, taking out, planning, planning
the bomb that pulls everything away. Dad had me on
my seat. I think that is really top to your stuff.
I really, Like I said, it's kind of her finest hour,
I think, and I think, although I understand what happens

(28:38):
in later episodes, it's a it's kind of a shame
where it kind of goes there me personally, but I
do think that that was such a great sequence, and
I really loved the layout of the of the hospital.
I was kind of curious, you know, you you follow story,
how is the pacing for you? How is this whole
thing kind of move along? Is isn't in fact her

(29:00):
finest down.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
It's it's edge of your seat, It's it's it's like,
in fact, when I was watching, and especially when Clay
is sneaking around, I'm thinking, Okay, this is espionage. This
is like, oh gosh, what was that the Americans was
at the show with Carrie Russell where she was a Russian.
It reminded me of that kind of a tense feeling.
And the actor who plays Claya is escaping me at

(29:24):
the moment. But I think I've been saying that she
might be my favorite character in the series. In this
episode is a prime example of why. But the data
thing is so ironic because it's her worst hour. I mean,
it's her fine it's one of refines after as a performer,
but as a character. This is the beginning of her
end because she is being betrayed by one of her

(29:48):
peers in the ISB. But it shouldn't be expected. She's
not really being betrayed because she subverts him. She stages
this kup on on his day off so he won't interfere,
but not because he would. He is an imbecilar, incompetent
because she doesn't want anyone taking the glory. Her great

(30:10):
tragedy is her incredible pride and this thirst to prove
herself because she doesn't want to have to share the act.
And she did all the work by herself, so I
completely get that. But the great irony here is that
if these two had worked together, if the ISP had
worked together instead of the infighting that we'll see with

(30:32):
all the imperials, not only would they have been successful,
but Luthen probably would have survived and they could have well.
I don't think he would have given anything, I really don't,
but they will least have had a chance, or she
at least could have had a chance to sort of
prove herself. But ultimately she becomes yet another scapegoat. Although

(30:52):
I'm breaking my rule. Never mind, maybe we'll find out
when we watch the next episode.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
Well, and it's also interesting because this happens, you know,
this happens after Gorman, so it's already been kind of
this kind of a cluster that happened at Gorman, and
so really instead of kind of like you know, kind
of regrouping a bit, and of course it's a year later,
she kind of doubles down, or at least, you know,
in terms of what we see, kind of doubles down,
going all right, this is gonna happen, but we already

(31:17):
kind of know she's already she's she wasn't supposed to
be on this anymore, and part of guys had given
her warning. You know, it's like, you know, first, you know,
don't don't create the myth, and then then lose it,
you know, catch the guy and then work the story
as it were. But you know, it's it's kind of
an interesting tragic end. But you know something else, how

(31:39):
about you know, and we're kind of maybe we could
almost skipped over this. How about you know, like his confrontation.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
With with Jung, I just about going to talk about
that excellent. I mean, yeah, Lanie Lannie. Is it young
or young?

Speaker 2 (31:54):
I'm assuming it's probably young or Jung.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah, it depends. If we're talking about a great of
mind of the past. This is this happens quickly. Their confrontation. Well,
it's not a it's a he's desperate. He's snuck into
the archives. He knows all about you know.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
What, what the what?

Speaker 1 (32:20):
What's the order? He says of the things. Oh, because
he starts going like kiber or So, it's a Jedi
kiber or So. But actually that's the title of episode twelve.
But he gives all the information that this is the
whole thing has been building towards. The stakes couldn't be higher,

(32:42):
and he's frightened. He has sacrificed everything too. This is
also his tragedy because he's going to end up being
killed by Luthen. Now we don't see it. That's a
directorial choice, the story choice, which I'm grateful for because
I think we're seeing I I don't think I think
if he again this is all structural stuff. I think

(33:03):
if we see him kill young here, then I think
it makes his relationship with the young Claya skewed a
little bit. Even though we know what's happening. We don't
see it. You know, this disillusioned soldier has to go

(33:24):
through this thing and stars that comstays by the way,
they spend seventeen years together, so that gives us some
time context, which I think is important.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
I think it would be a very eye for an eye, right.
I think he would especially at the end, going well,
he killed somebody and now it's his turn. But I
do think you know, we've seen hit. You know, it's
one or two interactions already with this, you know, with
this spy, and you kind of had to feel like
it wasn't maybe going to end well, especially but you

(33:54):
know that that whole you know, he's got one more
piece of information, one more chip to play, and Luthen
just kind of has to be like, look, I'm gonna
take it at Avin Yavin, and then he just has
to kind of spill it. And at that point you
know it's it's going to be a tragic ending. But
you know, you start to maybe think about what's this

(34:15):
guy been seeing and reading and what what has he
been holding on to? And I think it adds a
little nice little bit of depth to him because you go,
how would you even you know that this is such
a big fraud, how would you get it out? And
you see it as Luthen has Clay repeat it back
to him, which is amazing. You know, it's a part

(34:35):
of it. And in some cases maybe it takes a
little bit away from andors, you know, first encounter where
you're like, well, this guy had some information about the
Death Star. I mean they came short of saying death Star,
so that yeah, you know, you do kind of feel like, okay,
there's a little bit of overlap. The only thing that
I would have said is I think this might have

(34:56):
been a very good time to instead of just saying Urso,
maybe add a little bit more of Galen Urso or
I mean to add a little more of that to it.
I think it could have. You know, I don't think
we were going to see Mads Michelson in the series,
but I think you could have added more or maybe

(35:17):
that there's a daughter out there or something like that.
I think, like I said, once you start getting to
these last episodes, you start going, man, you know, there's
it was. It was hard to tie all this in
and and and snip all this within the confines that
they were given as far as how much showtime, how
much this and that, sure based on what is, but

(35:38):
I think that might have been an opportunity there to say,
once again, I'm nitpicking. Man, this is a great series.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
No, I I love I love the I love the
discourse I I I thought about that too, how it
would have been fun or would have been cool. But
I'm also glad they didn't because they're assuming. For one thing,
if we're supposed to feel the attention, then we have
to feel like we're living in the footsteps of these characters,
and whether it's all going to be revealed or not,
that has to come out later because that makes the
reveals an and or them, which are in rogue one

(36:05):
that much more of a pop moment, you know that
pops out at you, not a funkal pop and that
I think that's pretty cool. I think that's an important
thing because we do learn this, this Emperor's energy program
is a farce. There's actually a cover story for a
weapon of mass destruction. And it's like when Luthan realizes, well,
this has to stop, and unfortunately Jung is a loose

(36:28):
end and he's panicked. You know, loose lips sync ships
kind of a thing. So this is another sacrifice, another
element of the tragedy that this man has been forced into.
And it's it's pretty rough. It's pretty rough. You feel
for him, you're sad for him, you're set, you're sad,
you're not quite safur Dator yet, but there is an

(36:50):
element there of pain that makes things really challenging and problematic,
and it really, it just really moves me. This is
a huge thing.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Agreed, Agreed. And it's also interesting that you know, I'm
not I'm not trying to grasp for straws here, but
it's interesting that we happen to be talking about this
when the anniversary of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the bombings and
sort of that like the Manhattan Project and all the
secrets of behind this and you know how what that
all had to go into play because no one really
saw that coming until it kind of did. So it's

(37:23):
it's interesting to kind of see this this play out
as we're talking about it at the same time. But
it really adds to that tension.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
Right and it does. And stars that come that it
is Naboo where they set out that explosive. So that's
that's canonical facts right there for you. The ending when
she gives him a kiss, and then when she goes
down as he breathes his last This is such a

(37:52):
beautiful shot. If you look closely, it looks like he's
somewhat smiling or somewhat leaved. I think for him it's
been a burden to carry this weight. How could it
not be. It's insurmountable, and he has set things in
motion in many ways. You could say that if now
for Lutheran and Claiya, there is no crew of the ghosts,

(38:16):
there is no Red five standing by, you know, maybe
none of this stuff ever happens, and casting is a
huge part of that. But when they then they just
fade out for an extremely long time. I didn't count
many seconds. It is. I don't know cinematography or production
to that degree, but it's a very very slow fade

(38:37):
out and the light slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly gets a
little less bright, little right, and then finally it's just
not existent, and boy, oh boy, is that spectacular. I
really it leaves you. And then the music kind of
there's there's some silence for a while, and we feel
this pain, we feel the losses. Man, it could just

(38:57):
be some grumpy old sailor type that just hates the empire.
But now that we know more about him, and I
love the fact that he before he's changed his name,
his name is Lear, which is a great Shakespearean tragic
name of a king who had three daughters and two
of them fake their love just to get the accolades,

(39:18):
and he's rejected by them and he ends up losing
his mind. I'm not saying Luthan is King Lear, but
the fact that they're both people that have unusual relationships
with their daughters that are not unusual but just unconventional.
Although we root for both of them. But Luthan didn't

(39:41):
lose his mind, although he could have, and I think
if not for Clea, he would have. Whereas Lear's daughters,
they are the Lear's daughters are the reason he goes mad,
Luthan's surrogate daughter is a reason he doesn't, and he
uses that and he channels that violence and that hate
that he tells her to do later. Uh, too good.
You're losing, you losing, you lose, and you lose again

(40:03):
until you finally win. Amazing.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
Mmm. I love that. I love that. So I knew you,
I knew I knew this was what I was waiting for.
I'm waiting for the payoff for Danzy. Then this is
why you listen towards the end of the podcast, because
you're can get good stuff kids.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
Well, thank you. Hey, I feel pretty good about where
we're at. We've we've broken down the important aspects of this.
I mean, yes, the whole end sequence is very brilliant,
espionage filled and exciting, tragic and beautiful. But I'm ready
to give my letter grade. Greg. If you are. Unless
you've got something else you want to bring up, please
feel free to do so. Otherwise, let's hear your letter
grade and final thoughts.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Listening to coffee with Canoe, you are with dan Z
the podcast you're looking for?

Speaker 1 (40:45):
This is.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
All right. I'm going to give this a solid B.
I think structure it, you know, it works. I think
it gets us to where we need to go. In
and of itself, this was a fun rewatch, and like
I said, I think those flashbacks do serve this story
in and of itself really well. I know what's kind
of coming, and so for me, I kind of there's

(41:15):
a little bit of bittersweetness just because I know that
I just couldn't get more of of the present because
I knew that later on there's some there's some strings
that were a little shorter. This could have been, you know,
like I said, this is what really kind of comes
to mind, and maybe unfairly, but I you know, the

(41:36):
scenes we were talking about between Dedra and Luthen, and
I think Claya's mission and it just is is really
well done. And like I said, I think this had
a very hard task to follow that third arc, you know,
like that following week. You know, I almost came in
with not as much expectation as you go, how do

(41:56):
you top this? And remember it's all this is all
within the confines of that one evening right where we
go from you know, you know, three episodes. And if
if some of my reviews to are to be believed,
then then I would say even some of our listeners
were like, we get it on the arc thing, let
it go, And I was like, all right, fair enough
that I'm you know, water into the bridges it were.

(42:20):
But I would say, in this case, it's fun to
kind of take these on its own, because I think
you do get a little more breath with it. And
I enjoyed this and it was it was also a
fun discussion, so solid. B I just think, I know,
you know, like I said, as it gets harder as
it goes along, eleven and twelve, get even a little harder,
and I'll be very curious your thoughts as we as

(42:42):
you know, as we kind of get to there.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Sure, Well, gosh, this isn't a plus because it's it.
I don't think the first time I watched I was
said a plus because coming off the heels of the
other three, the previous three. But I'm not a teacher
who thinks there's only a certain percentage of a's. If
you get an A, you get an A. It's not

(43:04):
fair to hold other excellence against you. This is so
good because it's such an incredible character piece of Lutheran
and Clea. It also ties in the tragedy of Jung,
whose name I've mispronounced probably forty five times in this episode,

(43:25):
and we get the beginning of the end of data
as I mentioned that closing sequence, the fact that it's
a showcase for probably my favorite characters entire series. It's
just very moving, very powerful, and in a very sweet,
beautiful tragic end to a very tragic con man who's

(43:49):
known so much suffering and so much hate that he
uses for the greater good and gives the altar. He
gives his life to keep the rebellion secret. While many
people thought he might been cavalier with life, it's in
fact the opposite. He's not cavalier with the people. Even

(44:09):
Man Mathma's friend who was her childhood friend that she
mourned his loss when he got cold feet and started
to have his own internal problems, Luten is not cavalier
with life. He just has to look at everything in
a much much different way that I hope and pray
no one listening to the show ever has to even
come in within a million miles of considering. So that's

(44:31):
why it's an a plus.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Well said, well said, And you know, like I said,
the as nitpicky as I can be. I mean, this
was some of the best Star Wars we've seen, and
I think it's such a high water mark that other series,
you know, fairly or unfairly, will get kind of judged against.
But I do like the fact that it's there and
it does kind of show you and you know, as

(44:53):
we were kind of alluding to in some of the
episodes we had you on that I'm excited to see
what other creators can do, and you know, whether it's
you know, it doesn't always have to be about all
this action. A lot of it is about you know,
as you a lot of times will allude on episodes
of stories that you're not crazy about. It's like, give
me a story. I want to see that and I

(45:14):
and these moments will pay off if you put in
your put in your time, put in the work, and
put in the story so that like, hey, who doesn't
like to see you know, flashing swords and and all
that kind of stuff. We're we're in for it, but
there's a chance to really make it something special. And
I think in this case, we really got something special.
And I'll be excited because I think kind of probably

(45:36):
by the time you're done, we're gonna probably start talking
about the individual episode. Say look, let's just keep talking
about and or keep going not much else to talk
about it at the moment. So but I think it's
deserving of that kind of praise and discussion, and I'm
all for it.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
And you know, and and and please don't ever apologize
for like giving it the grade that you did. I
think that's cool. Like I think that the honesty and
I've always loved the integrity of our of the coffee
is going to be faintly because we're not gonna like everything,
but we have an excellent way to explain it. And
we learned so much more from each other in the
discourse and I'm I've one. I'm grateful, and that was

(46:15):
one of the reasons why I wanted to have you
off of this episode. And as always, you never disappoint
and look, there's much more of Greg for you to enjoy. Greg,
please tell us where they can find you and what's
going on with for all base card it.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
You know, we had to take a bit of a
pause after the London Film and Comic Con show, which
was amazing, and shout out to Daz Davies for keeping
me company and helped me on one of my episodes there.
And of course we had Mark Molcaster and Mark Newbold
at Phanto Tracks, got to see them live and doing
their podcast in person. But I would just say that,

(46:48):
you know, there was there's an audio that I got
from the National you know, Sports Collectors convention that was
last week here, right, and we had to kind of
kind of leave right after it kind of started. But
we have more card talk. We've got a release coming
up very soon. Top Star Wars Chrome twenty twenty five
will be out I think later this month, so we'll
get to see some of that and you may see
it actually in your local games, top Target or Walmart,

(47:10):
and it'll be exciting to get a release that is
a little more open. And then I think the big thing,
of course, as I kind of alluded to, Greg cast
and I will be kind of doing our second Breakfast
as it were, where we kind of take we knew
that everything kind of came down it seemingly in that
one month, but we're going to try to break down
like you have been doing and or and inviting folks

(47:31):
on yourself and all that to kind of like go
over this. And that's kind of the fun part, right
And you've had different guests on each week, and we
kind of do something similar where there's there's a lot
of great dialogue out there, a lot of great folks,
and like you, I'm like I want to hear their takes,
we want we kind of want to do it, and
everybody kind of has their own way of doing it,
but it makes it fun. And I just think because

(47:53):
there's so much to talk about here. You know, you
pick up on a thread, we may pick up on
a thread someone else picks up on a thread. A
lot of great stuff out there, and it's kind of
fun to engage that community while we're kind of waiting
for our next you know, as some of the conventions
wine down, Fan Expost Chicago's coming up in a couple
of weeks, that kind of thing. So it's just really
kind of fun and keep that conversation going, just as

(48:14):
you always.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Say a huge thank you Greg and Gloughlin for joining
me to talk about this incredible episode. And or you know,
I look on my calendar, there was a time where
I thought, gosh, we're spending so much time on this.
Eventually it's going to end. And it's about to end.
We've got two episodes left. There are no shows on
the horizon to talk about a review. But I think

(48:35):
that's going to be just fine. You know what, We've
got almost fifty years of Star Wars conversations to have.
There's so much content out there, so many great people,
places and events that have to do with the Star
Wars experience. And I'll coffee with Kenobi. I want to
bring you all of that, especially with this incredible community

(48:56):
that we have and the way we all look at
Star Wars with our own unique a jet and the
way we look at Star Wars and our own special
way with our memories, our insights, and our passion for
this galaxy far far away. Thank you again so much
for joining me each and every week on Coffee with Kenoby.

(49:18):
I am Dan's are, and this is the podcast you're
looking for. See you next time, my friends. For all
things Star Wars news, reviews, videos, and more, head to
our home base coffeewith Kanoby dot com. Don't forget to
join the Cwkcafe on Facebook at Coffeewthcanoby dot com slash community,
our family friendly, spoiler free group for all your Star

(49:41):
Wars thoughts, comments and conversation. This podcast is possible thanks
to the incredible support of the CWK Alliance. I want
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(50:03):
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Want to connect, you can email me at dan z
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(50:27):
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(50:50):
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(51:11):
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Speaker 4 (51:18):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
or Lucasfilm Limited. It is intended for entertainment and informational
purposes only. The official Star Wars website can be found
at www dot star Wars dot com. Star Wars, All names, sounds,
and any other Star Wars related items are registered trademarks
and or copyrights of Disney and their respective trademark and
copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the

(51:39):
intellectual property of Coffee with Kenobi. Unless otherwise indicated, this
is the podcast you're looking forward.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
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