CWK Show #833: Andor- "Who Else Knows?"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
He listenable of it. Although from Lucas Fahman. You're listening
to Kathi with Kenobi with Dan z or Z For
Canadian and British listeners, this is the podcast you're looking for,
and just take a moment.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
What single thing.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
Would drag me to this forsaken basement?

Speaker 4 (00:24):
Even discounting the volume of revnock ingested, the chances of
you making a bid of that scale are not statistically measurable.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Be careful. He's trying to droid you team leaders, Supervisor,
hurt right deck.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
And as you're confued, he stayed with this.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
He stayed for what I've just told you.

Speaker 4 (00:48):
He stayed to figure this out.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
And you need to tell these people in the ourn
what they're up against.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
This is as the X sign a Silko Hanno from
Star Wars, the Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels. And
you're listening to Coffee with Kenoby with Dan Fee.

Speaker 4 (01:06):
Hello, friends, and welcome to Coffee with Kenoby. You are
family friendly, spoiler free Star Wars podcast or intelligent conversation
and a splash of humor bring fans together from across
the galaxy. I'm your host, Dan Zayer, educator and Star
Wars author. Whether you're a lifelong Jedi master or just
topped off your first Dark Cruiser, grab your cap and

(01:28):
join us as we explore the mythology, philosophy, and wonder
of a galaxy far far away, one conversation at a time.
Coffee with Kenoby is more than a podcast, It's a community. Together.
We celebrate the people, stories and experiences and make Star
Wars so special, creating a space where fans can come
together and share their voices. Thank you, the official travel

(01:52):
partner of Coffee with Kenoby, Emi Travel and mouse Fan Travel.
Check out Coffee with Knobe dot com slash mouse Fan
Travel for no no obligation quote and let them know
Coffee with Kenoby and Dan's Air sent you. On today's show,
Father Jimmy and Ross Hollivan joined me to talk about
the penultimate episode in season two of and Or. Who

(02:13):
else knows, So pull up a chair, grab your favorite mug,
and let's have coffee with Kenoby. Well, friends, we are
so close finally the penultimate episode of season two of
and Or. I am, of course your host Dan's are
very excited to talk some Star Wars with all of you.

(02:34):
I've got two friends with me to talk about this
pretty seismic episode. You need you need two people that
you know, if you're stuck on Coruscant, they're gonna fly
in there and they're gonna get you out of there.
They're gonna save you. So let's bring it first. You
know him, you love him, Ross, Hollovan Ross. It's been
too long, my friend. But it's so good to have

(02:54):
you back on the show.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
It is it is.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Uh, it's fantastic. I love getting the message from you
that we were going to do this, and you know,
every moment we get to share with our busy lives
is absolutely a bonus. So it only helps that there's
k Twoso to talk.

Speaker 4 (03:12):
Well, Okay, we're going to get to that. We're going
to get too that an our other guest. He is
the official Catholic Priest of Coffee with Kenoby Father Jimmy Morgan,
Father Jimmy, Welcome back to the show.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Wow, what a great introduction. Thanks Dan. I'm I'm very excited,
very excited to chat about this great episode with the
two of you. I'm looking forward to digging into it.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Blergie Clout, I love it with a Raven's mug.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
That's a Raven's mug. That's right, is we're so close
eighteen days, Caleb Williams days until the season starts.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
So.

Speaker 4 (03:50):
You know who else knows a powerful episode. We're going
to give one word to describe it and overall thoughts,
but I do want to share. At celebration, Anaheim Ross
added something to his arsenal of Star Wars collectible is
a very nee collectible. It takes a picture of it
to Matt Martin right away. Ross has a pretty amazing

(04:14):
tattoo of K two s. So so you popped in
mind first talking about Zepps. So let's see it. How
long we don't have to post a picture that I'll
or send a picture to me and I'll put on
coffee with Kenoby. How long did that take?

Speaker 3 (04:29):
I want to say it was three and a half hours,
so around that it was nice because l J. Souder
and his family stopped by to check in different friends.
Because it's right there. It's right there in the middle
of things, so people can just swing by. I'm sitting

(04:50):
there watching. It was fun people watching all the fans
going by and cosplay and if I knew someone and
things like that.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
But it was.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
It was interesting to do that and then try to
keep up with you at Star Wars night at Disney
that night going on roller coaster some things right, just
like Isaik. Yeah, I'm getting battered right now.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
That was one epic night. That was one epic night. Well, Ross,
well we'll start with you tell me you're one word
to describe who else knows and overall thoughts on the episode.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
Yeah, I have suffocating because even though no one is
actually choked and there there's no Darth Vader pinching his
fingers together, there is so much suffocation and lack of
air throughout this episode and it is shot beautifully. The

(05:46):
writing is amazing, just like how the whole series goes.
But you know there's only one more left after this,
so everything becomes that much more real and they didn't
hold back.

Speaker 4 (06:01):
Suffocating is a great word, father, Jimmy, what about you?

Speaker 2 (06:07):
I also went with a verb. I went with intensifying
because similarly, there was a great sense of building of
tension throughout this episode. The anxiety was certainly ramping up
as it went along. As Ross, you mentioned, we're about
to jump into this final episode that's going to cap
everything off, and I don't think I quite realized how

(06:29):
tense I felt in this episode until rewatching it. Because
I cycle back and forth. When there's New Star Wars
to watch, I go Disney Plus without ads. When there's
not New Star Wars, I go Disney Plus and Hulu
with ads are about the same. So this time there
were ads, and when the first ad popped up, I shouted,

(06:50):
I was like, no, no, it was very it's very frustrating,
but I lived through it. Don't worry. Yes, I still
in building. Mm hm.

Speaker 4 (07:02):
That's great too. And that's a great strategy as well.
My word is pivotal. This is this is a pivotal
moment for several key characters in this I don't know
that it is for Cassian, but you can very well
see that he's transitioned from the pain of his wife leaving,
and he is fully a part of Yabin in the rebellion,

(07:27):
certainly Dedra Merrow. And then, of course, you know, we
have our main character for the episode, which we're going
to talk about her quite a bit. So who fathered me?
I'm going to have you go first, tell me, uh,
send me where you'd kind of like this dart because
to me, there's there's three main things to talk about.

(07:49):
There is what hapms with Deadra. There is K two
and how he fits into all of this, and and
then we've just kind of got yeah and kind of
what that means. Those are the kind of three things
I want to talk about. But father to me, feel
free to take it any direction you would like.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
I guess the direction I want to start leads into
the Dadra thread. And that's with the very first shot
that we have in this episode. It mirrored the previous
episode so well. The previous episode ends with that long
fade out of Lutheran, and then this one starts kind
of jarringly with a dead stormtrooper on the ground almost

(08:30):
in the same position. Yeah, and that kind of, eventually,
you know, is all because of what Dandra was doing
and what she had failed to do in many regards.
And I just thought it mirrored the end of that
previous episode very well and helped kind of set the
stage for what we are about to get into it
this episode, because.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
The last one was so so beautiful, a beautiful hour
of television that does very much when you when this
one starts, you kind of forget the emotion of Lutheran
and everything that happens in that episode with Claya, because
it's like, Okay, she's got to get out, she's got

(09:14):
to get out. There is no time, there is no time.
How much luck can you possibly have? Shirley Hurts is
gonna run out because we don't see her in Rogue one.
So the fact that it builds we've got that kind
of way on our collective shoulders as fans and viewers
is quite palpable.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
And I think as I mean, we get that that
build with with here and him taking things over, but
I think that's just kind of a that's a little
eye candy to open things because then we're we're leading
directly into that interrogation room and that is where things take.

(09:58):
This is one of the greatest scenes Star Wars history
in my mind.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
I don't doubt. I don't doubt that. Let's let's talk about.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
It, Yeah, and just having having this start in the
interrogation room where Dadri's just sitting there and she has
no idea what's going on, and she's isolated, she's alone,
and then it is that homage to THCHX eleven thirty

(10:26):
eight and that shot as well, interesting sitting on her
as we're getting that through the monitor and that just
takes it off. And then then you're getting Krenic walking
in with that evil profile. And you know what in
an interrogation room when they turn off the recording device,
you know something's going down. Yeah, whatever show you're watching,

(10:50):
and that happens. And I want to hand off the
baton here because this could be its own episode just
going over this scene. So I want to make sure
I'm going to touch some pieces. But then I want
to hand off to see where you guys want to
go with the next part.

Speaker 4 (11:08):
Well, so I'll take the baton. I'll run around this
little part of the track. Look the opening shot, you've
got two views of Dedra. You've got the main key shot,
key camera on her just looking straight ahead. But the
monitor below is a side of view of her, and

(11:31):
I think it's like, I think it's her right cheek maybe,
And I love that part. And I kept watching that
sequence and I paused it because straight on she looks
like pale, she looks like she's a mess. She looks scared,
and I don't blame her. She should be scared. And

(11:52):
then the monitor below, what the Empire sees is a
side of you where she doesn't look pale, she looks composed,
she looks like she's in control. And there's this beautiful
dichotomy that I think is the soul of Dadra Merril,
because she is very selfish, very obsessive, and at least

(12:14):
you could very much argue without much resistance that she
is sort of the creator of her own demise. How palpable,
how appropriate that is, But the reality is in her mind.
She doesn't look as scared as she probably should be
until our caped friend walks and in the performance here,

(12:40):
the performance is beautiful, like this is Emmy worthy as
a supporting actor or as a guest whatever the category is,
like guest star. I don't remember what the category is
for this. But when you watch it and Krenik walks
in and he just slowly builds, he has no patience

(13:01):
or tolerance. Why doesn't he kill her right away? I
think it's because he knows there's information he still needs.
She might still be of use to him, but his
sole purpose in life is the death star. And the
fact that he wants her to say it out loud
because he's so angry. How dare she even utter these words?
How dare these words even come out of your mouth

(13:23):
and it just is like a rattlesnake at this moment.
The rattle is striking, but very slowly at this part.
And then I'm gonna I see how the Jimmy's are.
I'm handing on the baton. I got more to say,
but you know he'll come back around. It's gonna be
a lap. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yes, I hadn't thought about those two shots, the two
angles in that same manner, but I did notice it,
and to me, that set again this tension. Everything with
the Empire is very orderly, very constructed and linear, but
that opening shot there was a couple of things that
weren't quite symmetrical, like she's not quite I didn't feel

(13:59):
like she was quite in this enter, and it built
this uneasiness because not only was the acting superb in this,
but I thought the cinematography was as well. The fact
that most of the time we just got the lower
half of Krenik's face for quite a while really kind
of built this uncomfortability, like I really felt a little

(14:19):
anxious for what was going to happen. And of course,
as was mentioned, whenever that interrogation monitor gets turned off,
you know something bad's going to happen in that room.
But Yes, I really felt that the way this was
shot really built that sense of uncomfortability and unease, and

(14:40):
you knew something bad is coming out of this. And
I really felt despite how much Dandre really presents herself
in this strength almost all the time, we see it
almost all the time, and she always seemed to be
very in control, she's not quite dealing with an equal
in this circumstance. And I noticed that, particularly with the

(15:07):
way the colors were done in this, everything was very
black and white, their uniforms, even their hair except for
their ranks, that kind of red and blue. And he
has so many more than she does, you know, And
so all of the kind of the bright color that
popped out of that was how much higher stature he
is than she is. And I think that really came

(15:29):
forward in their interaction.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
And I think speaking of the interaction, that is the
that is the art of this, where we have these
two amazing actors, but a really incredible script to work
off of, yes, and what they turn it into with
Tony Gilroy and everyone else involved in their him walking in,

(15:55):
who else knows, and she's completely caught off guard, like
she you talked about her being selfish.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
She's so.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Focused on Luthan that she can't imagine that anything else
could elevate beyond that in terms of a priority.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
So she just wants the credit for acxis. That's all
she cares about. Yeah, And the fact he keeps it
in under her yeah, under her hat, it shows that
she's she's gonna use that for later, sorry to me in.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
Yeah, but like as she's she's curious and he's like,
oh my god, how stupid are you? What single thing
would drag me to this forsaken basement? And those words
put together delivered by Mendelssohn are so incredible, and then
that just builds into say it, say the word and Dan,

(16:52):
I'm going to pass to you here.

Speaker 4 (16:54):
All right, I'm getting out of breath. Likely I stretched out. Yeah.
Ben Mendelssohn and Denis gal are tremendous in this. And
the scene when he leaves and he puts his finger
on the top of the middle of her head kind
of wear like her hair it probably has a natural part,
and the look of horror on her face. I think

(17:15):
that's the first time she realized I could die, Like
I'm not talking my way out of this. I'm actually
the one who I'm not the cat anymore. I'm the mouse.
I've never been the mouse except for the end on
Ferrex right in season one, and that was pretty brief,
and she was saved there, but no one is saving her,

(17:37):
and it's it just it's pretty scary because we know
as an audience what director or syncretic is capable of,
and undoubtedly she does too. I don't think she ever
dreamed was a possibility to he be a part of this.
He kind of recruit her into the whole gormant thing anyway,
and that kind of he did, So it's I agree,

(17:58):
it's it's quite remarkable, quite rich. Uh, And it just
a dynamic example, like so much of season two vandor
of a perfect blend of script, cinematography, performance music equals
cinema magic. I think we want the race, But does
anybody else have anything want to say to convince the

(18:20):
judges otherwise?

Speaker 3 (18:22):
Not a We are there and it, like you said,
she's she's starting to realize the trouble she's in. And
apparently when that happened, that that wasn't written into the
script for him to put his finger down on her head,
like I wondered she didn't know what was coming.

Speaker 4 (18:41):
And I think that's one of the most it's one
of the it sounds funny, it's one of the most
violent things I've seen in Star Wars. And it's just
a finger because he's got her under his thumb, even
though it's a finger here, and like there's so much
threat in that. Again, just a finger, And that's what
this performance does. It's it's really scary stuff.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah, you hit that on that Oh, go ahead, Jimmy.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
I was gonna say, Dan, you hit that on the head.
With how how the violence was portrayed in that, Like,
I feel like I witnessed that scene and felt like
I witnessed more violence than when Ball gets cut in half.
You know, we see limbs chopped off in so many
other parts of Star Wars, but this felt so invasive, evasive. Yeah, personal.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
Well, and even even as the scene closes, when he's
leaving and it's her fut hits her last grasp of
having some nature of control, where she stands up and
it's like we need to do this, we need to
do that, and he grabs her side down the face
and her head with these gloves and just crushes her

(19:51):
back down into her seat and uh. And as he
does that, he's like, yeah, well we'll figure out what
to do without you.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
Yeah, yeah, We'll try to carry on herself.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
You don't need you helping with this anymore. After she's
had her Cyril moment of Cyril seeing and Or and realizing, Oh,
he doesn't know who I am, but this is all
I've gone after for all these years, and then detro
with everything she's been doing, and he's like, you're a

(20:24):
rebel spy. So the affront to her being considered that
with all she has put into it, it is a
very fun karmic moment to be able to see something
like that.

Speaker 4 (20:39):
That is a great way to describe that. Ross a
great way to describe that. So I'm going to start
my own race here. I got my boys. I'm going
to start running with this baton. I like this baton idea.
This is a great metaphor Ross. All right, father, Jimmy,
I'm coming to you next, buddy. But I'm going to
start it. So as we consider this episode, we finally

(21:06):
see K two S So he's back Alan Tutic in
the motion capture the voice. It's an accessible performance I'm
pretty sure. I know, in fact, it was nominated for
an Emmy this performance in a separate category. That escapes
me at the moment, so is I guess it's more

(21:28):
of a question is K two s so satisfying in
this sequence because we don't really get to see him
fight a little bit? And and truth be told, I
was thinking that the sequence where he goes down the
hallway and saves Claia and Cassian, I was thinking that
was at the end of this, but obviously it's not.
So probably was like, oh, man, I guess ross my
beginning another call pretty soon. Was K two satisfying? And

(21:53):
if so, what did you like about it? And if not,
what do you what was missing? Father Jimmy.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
I thought it worked even though, like I had wrote down,
even though he's still funny, there's still a comedy there
with him. It didn't lower the tension. It didn't necessarily
feel too jarring. Yeah, and I thought I thought this

(22:20):
was good. I thought it was It was okay. It
kind of helps to continue that bridge into Rogue one
and then into well, he's not in a new Hope,
but there is other All the visual and character elements
throughout this episode and next episode that helps really kind
of pull that thread from the and Or series through

(22:41):
Rogue one into a new hope. And so I thought
K two s O's appearance in this episode helped to
serve that function, and I thought I did. I thought
I did pretty well.

Speaker 4 (22:55):
I agree with father Jimmy. Yeah. When I set it up,
I REALI, oh, gosh, I sound like I'm going to
say something negative. I'm not. I think it's great and
I'll talk about why. So thank you, fellow Jimmy Ross.
You are easily the biggest K two SO fan that
I know. How is this homecoming for you?

Speaker 2 (23:11):
It will? I think?

Speaker 3 (23:13):
What really set it up? And it's not the end
part and seeing the power of him that you know
from Rogue one when he knocks the guy off, like hey,
are you with us? And he's like no and swats
the fly off the bridge. It is. It is their
dynamic and their banter during the lighthearted moment of this episode,

(23:39):
even though it was lighthearted and they're they're drinking revnog
and they're gambling, but there's a tension because K two
sl has to bring tension, and whether there's a little
bit of humor built into it as well. It is
here's the numbers, this can't be happening. What you doing,

(24:01):
and Cassie and saying be careful, he's trying to droid you.
As they're working through their bets on the game. That's
where I think you get to understand the relationship that
they build up, and that is why Cassian and K
two work so well together. And then Melchie also with

(24:24):
k in a great line you never know what they're humans,
you never know what they're going to do, and I
think that's also a little bit of a nod to
K Twoso's final moments with Jin when g hands him
the blaster interesting before they're going behind the door. So
that is those elements where you're bringing this droid to

(24:46):
life a little bit more because you're going against the
odds in actions, and that is teaching K twoso to
understand humans a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Well.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
I think all of that comes together that this was
awesome with K two. It was K two and then
we got a little bit more.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
It's pretty great, And honestly, I don't know what I
expected or what I wanted. There was a small part
of me that would have been happy to have K
two in all of the episodes, but chronologically it wouldn't
work out, and I think it would water him down.
I think he's one of those Star Wars characters that
less is more because he has such a big impact.

(25:29):
But I think what's important about K two.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Us so it's not.

Speaker 4 (25:33):
Who he is or what he does or how powerful
he is. I think K two s all is important
because of what he brings out in Cassie and and
Or you have not seen Cassie and Or in season
one or two. Is relaxed, is casual, as happy as
he is in that room, in that moment, they're playing

(25:55):
that game that undoubtedly they'll sell the Disney Park some
day and we'll I'll buy it, let's be honest. And
he there's there's a humor to it and a dryness
to it. They're having a little bit of fun at
his expense. And he has adroid. He doesn't really have feelings,
but he does get annoyed. So he kind of walks
that line between between, you know, having a conscience or

(26:18):
having feelings and not. And he flat it says it's impossible.
What does he say, It's impossible to get on my nerves?
Is that what he says it's.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
Impossible along those lines, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:27):
Yeah, and and and it's really magnificent. The fact that
there's just a little bit of it, I think very
nicely sets the stage for what is to come when
they when they get that piece of information from that radio,
when Willman shows up and he's like, we've got something
you've got to hear, and cassiing instantly goes into game mode.

(26:52):
It's fourth quarter time and and there there's no margin
for error. So I'm hitting the baton.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, Dan, I think you had a great point of
what it brings out in Cassian. I was saying about
that as we were talking. That correct me if I'm wrong,
But I think one of the last times we saw
Cassian was he's in a pretty difficult spot at that point.
I think Bix has just left right a year, and
so seeing Cassian having a good time and with that

(27:24):
witty banter that we are already familiar with between him
and k twos, so it lets the audience know that
Cassian's okay, yes without kind of it's that show don't
tell aspect that I think is very well done. So
he helps us be okay with where Cassian is because
if Cassie was all grumpy and sour, and so is

(27:45):
Kate to us, so we'd be more concerned.

Speaker 4 (27:49):
And I don't think he ends up saving Claya if
he's not in the right head space.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah, everything gets put into perspective and it is you
know what, You rely on the people around you to
help you get through things. And that's a surprise found
family happening here with a droid and two guys that
broke out of jail together, there we are.

Speaker 4 (28:15):
If I had a dime, I love it. And then
of course to the end with K two or just
like the build up which you've already alluded to Ross
and Father Jimmy about showing the pure strength of K
two s so, but even with that, because the coms
are down because they can't communicate, it's pretty scary. So

(28:40):
I got one more big thing I definitely want to
talk about. But Father Jimmy, what's on your list of
things that you think we need to discuss? For who
else knows.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
One thing I wanted to discuss. It's more the technical
side of how this was shot and filmed that I
thought really was brilliant. Was just this kind of rhythmic
on one side rhythmic music that kind of really felt
like a heartbeat the whole time. But then also a
lot of the sound effects played into that as well.
You know, in the beginning, when Claya is kind of

(29:13):
trying to break through that wall and hammering through it,
the pulse itself the kind of flash, and it wasn't
quite to the extent that the end of the first
season was where we're listening to the music that the
people are listening to, or like how they did that
with the wedding scene. I think that's diegetic sound, I

(29:34):
think was what it was called, right, but we're still
feeling that pulse and it often kind of went in
the same rhythm, the same beat is what was going
on on screen, and I just thought it was brilliantly done.
I thought it was awesome. It lost once a baton,

(29:54):
Yeah it.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Is still because I had something so relative down here,
and I think, I think I've got one more step
with it. So as she's breaking out the radio transmitter
and we're seeing this video footage of her happening at
the hospital at the same time, so that dynamics awesome
seeing it back and forth. But as she's hitting it,

(30:18):
to me, it was the same cadence and sound as
the percussion warnings on Ferris when the city alert was
going out, but then also the same as and or
breaking the water pipe before their escape on Narkena five,
in that same violent fashion of I'm not making music.

(30:41):
I need to crash through this thing to save my life.
And I think that's where Jimmy, you were nailing it
on the head there, that's where that whole nother level
of just like, oh my god, take a breath, it
came into this.

Speaker 4 (30:58):
That's so cool. Yeah, everything is working on all cylinders here,
it's all it's all beautifully perform. The music emphasizes those
emotional beats that that that show us what's at stake.
And let's not forget that Cassian thinks he's going to
rescue Luthan. He isn't he's going to rescue Claya necessarily.

(31:21):
Maybe he thinks probably, if anything, he would expect them
to be together because it's it's it. No Mo're hiding
out and corroscant after this. But I think that's an
important part of this too. Ross. What would you like
to bring up?

Speaker 3 (31:35):
I think it's the the ISB briefing room, and part
of gas is in this so little but also makes
such a huge impact and I think just defines what's
elegant about the ISB and what is revolting about it

(31:55):
all at the same time. And just as as Crenics
in there pushing on here and telling him failure, failure
will earn you a place in the ever lengthening ISB
death March, because things are not going well, and part

(32:16):
of Gas recognizes that with every statement like that that happens.
And then you get this, really I don't know, you
don't really see much friendship or relationship ever on the
imperial side of things, but you get this moment with
Party Gas and Crenic and part of Gas like dust Star,

(32:37):
what a pressient turn of phrase. And immediately Kreinic's like,
I can't protect you, Leo, and you have this moment.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
I think that's first time we hear his first name.
If I'm right, I could be wrong.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, it was. That was powerful to me. And then
there there's a little bit more and Party because they
start bickering a little bit about like, man, you should
have been done. I've been keeping this under the rug
for a while. And then part of Guys ends up
with save the sermon for Palpatine that was kind of important,

(33:15):
just says Indeed, well, you get.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
The sense that part of gas is like the one
of the only people that he can talk to, that
we can talk to him like that. Tarkan treats him
like a peon. Yeah, he's petrified the vader, and of
course Palpatine is Palpatine. So there's an interesting sort of
a look at these two, especially after the way we
see him treat Datra.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
I think.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
The main last thing I want to talk about is
I think the way that Cassie Clay has desperation. We've
never seen Claya not in control, never, never, never, She's
so in control, like her hair is pulled tight. It's
just everything is, you know, because she's got to focus.
She's really kind of the secret weapon of the rebellion,

(34:01):
the burgeoning rebellion. But you know, she's like you know,
kyber Jenna or so you know, and all these things
that she's saying, you've got to remember, you've got to
repeat it, and Cassian doesn't repeat it. I think it's
because Cassian knows, Look, I'm gonna remember this is what
I do. You're panicked, But she's not panicked. This is

(34:25):
her her father figure, her closest confident in the world,
the person who raised her literally died for this information.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
Well, and she had to kill him.

Speaker 4 (34:37):
Yes, yes, to make it happen. So I think there's that,
there's that heaviness, and I don't get the sense she
slept very much. She probably fell asleep in spite of
herself at that radio. I love when she's trying to
break through the stone. When you first watch, you're like,
is she trying to break out of prison? What's going

(34:57):
on here? But she's trying to get another radio. By
the way, is there anything more satisfying than seeing cables
plugged into radios? It's like you're getting ready to do
a podcast or something. I really like that a lot.
But more important, way, more important than that, the way
that he persuades her without any sense of annoyance or urgency,
but pure calm, pure like platonic love, pure relationship. He

(35:24):
doesn't pull his Cassian attitude that he's always had. He
doesn't have it at all, not at all, And he
doesn't hugger, but he's kind and he's like, we've got
to go, you know. He is empathizing with her, and

(35:44):
I think it's just it's really beautiful. The amount of
patience he has in kindness while still maintaining a sense
of urgency that is beyond what most human beings would
ever have to deal with is really striking. It's just
a really beautiful, understated but emotionally hefty performance from Diego

(36:07):
Luna here, and I just love it.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
I think something that I want to like I'm playing
it out in my mind right now, but imagining how
he comforts her and the authenticity of it here like
you mentioned, and then think about at the beginning of
Rogue one when he's trying to show sympathy to the

(36:32):
spy who's providing information, and you have this a similar
situation with two completely different characters and Cassie and is
two different people in those two spots, same situations. It
makes this one so beautiful.

Speaker 4 (36:52):
It's pretty amazing. It's really lovely, Father Jimmy, anything to
add to that.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
I think with that, a lot of that dialogue kind
of came to a head when there was getting kind
of tense and she says, pretty forced me, like you
left once, and he says, and you convinced me to stay,
And I think Cassian realizes where he would be if
he had actually left, if he had actually gone away,

(37:19):
kind of what his life would be. And so, in
exchange with the gratitude that he has for her and
Luthen helping him to stay, he feels that he knows
the position she could be in, and so he's trying
to get her to come back, even though in that
moment she doesn't want to, just like in the moment
he didn't want to stay either.

Speaker 4 (37:39):
Why do you both think he's not harboring some anger?
It could easily, you know, it wouldn't necessarily be right,
but he could easily blame Claia and Luthen for his
wife being gone and putting this you know, choice in
his brain. But he doesn't. There's nothing of that. Like
I said earlier in show, he seems free than ever.

(38:01):
Why do you think he's not more angry?

Speaker 2 (38:05):
I think because he trusts Bicks. First of all, he
trusts his wife. He trusts that if she was leaving,
it was for the right reason. And even though he
may not have been able to see it at the
time and he was wrapped up in everything else, he
sees his ultimate goal because that's kind of given to

(38:29):
him by by his wife by Bicks and right and
Clia and Lutheran. We're a part of that as well.
And so I think in the grand scheme of things,
he doesn't harbor that ill will, he doesn't harbor that
kind of sense of unforgiveness because he knows where he's

(38:50):
at because of them, and that was reinforced by the
choices of.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
Bis and I think there's also a kind of building
off of that. And maybe this is a little bit
of a reach, but you know, Luke and Leah with
Anakin slash Vader, and now we have two basically orphans

(39:18):
who had a father figure as well, and you know,
did things his way. Wasn't necessarily the greatest guy in
the world, but he had a purpose in what he
was doing, and he took care of them and made
sure that they were able to succeed in what they
all believed in. So I think there's that element of

(39:38):
it as well. He in some sense he saw his
sister mourning as he's going through the shock of realizing, oh,
Lutheran's not here for either of us anymore. I need
to be here for you, because when I was ready
to leave, you were here for me.

Speaker 4 (39:58):
That's really lovely you don't even need me. It's just
a two person relay race at this point. Fantastic. Look,
I feel like I've hit the key points I wanted
to discuss. But if either of you have any other
aspects of who else knows you'd like to bring up,
I would be happy to discuss them with you.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
The only thing I have is and again, Alan Tudic,
thank you, Thank you for everything that you do, because
you're fantastic. So many of the contributors and actors to
this are of it just a special place in my heart.
There and then towards the end when he's explaining talking
about Corussant and saying that Melchie hasn't been there. I

(40:43):
was in a parade there once the Emperor was there
and Cassie and it's like, yeah, I'm sorry I had
to miss that. That is the humor that that makes
my cheeks hurt, because it is just that long term
smile of just like, thank you for being sarcastic right now, and.

Speaker 4 (41:02):
We've broken seventeen rules, and then yes and yet and
yet k twos so disobeys in order to get out
of his ship and save them. Happy as tail is
wagon or is that a cat that's.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Ov making in appearance here. I felt it was that
ross you were saying that. The job by Alan Tudic
just really hit home and I think I had missed
that kind of line earlier when he talks about he's
not able to be annoyed or whatever over right because
he does so many other human things. Like I was.

(41:42):
The last time I was rewatching it, I started to
laugh because there's a scene when he's in the cruiser
when they're trying to go rescue Clay, where he's he's
leaning his head on his hand, and I just thought
to myself, robots don't need to.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Do that, Like, yeah, doesn't do that.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
He doesn't get bored, you know, but but yet he does.
Yet he has learned how to be bored and how
to do something about it.

Speaker 4 (42:08):
He's pretty he's pretty uh humanistic, I think, which I
think makes him very appealing more relatable. All Right, fellas,
I think we should give a letter grade and final
thoughts on this really delightful episode. Father Jimmy, I know
you're not big on A plus's, so I am curious

(42:29):
where are we on this one?

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Oh gosh, this one was tough. I I think i
I'm going to go with an A on this one,
primarily because a lot of what this did I thought
was there to serve the finale. It was a good
story in and of itself as well, but there's quite

(42:52):
a few things that built into the finale that if
the finale's not there, it all falls apart, even the
way it like I was talking about that word intensifying
the tension. As we're getting close to the end, you know,
there's a couple of shots of those troopers and they're
tapping their toes and they're getting ready there they're kind
of anxious, and then even we have the beeping of

(43:16):
that kind of radar, and there's a you hear the
beeping when you see Clia and Cassian in the apartment,
and then it goes to their device, and then kind
of the last thing we hear is that final beep
that means they're getting close and it's a black screen
and which was very very well done. But it does

(43:36):
need that second part, and so that's why I went
as because it needs this other episode that's coming up.

Speaker 4 (43:48):
I love that. I really support that. I agree this
is one of the rare ones that doesn't quite fully
stand on its own in a way, So I think
your rubric is quite sound, not that you need my
permission because you don't Russ.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
Yeah, And I think sometimes I'm not willing to give
that A plus.

Speaker 4 (44:10):
I know I got the two tough graders here.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
But I'm going to here almost because of those same
reasons of how much it is the set. This is
a tough episode to put out there and put it
this level, knowing that you have the finale coming up.

Speaker 4 (44:32):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
There was focus, we got background, we got the Yavin
four exchanges and that lightheartedness and things like that, but
this was really the moment to show the bad guys
and their humanity and lack of it. And I think

(44:55):
there's something to be said for that, and that's why
I'll go for an A here, if only because of
the interrogation room. But then there's also again that that
part of gas chronic exchange as well. So I think
there's so many just beautiful hidden moments in this one

(45:15):
that are easy to overlook because we know we have
the heroes to celebrate in the next episode.

Speaker 4 (45:22):
Right, That's so cool. So Father Jimmy A minus ross
a plus which I did not expect, and I agree
like the just the interrogation scene alone. The return of
k Twoso in a way that felt like an authentic
extension of the character. Sometimes when a character comes back,

(45:43):
maybe the dialogue's a little off, or maybe totally there's
something amiss. But there's none of that. It's really great.
It's really lovely, and it's a bit of a small homecoming.
Even though he was only in one film, he left
an impact.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
Obviously.

Speaker 4 (45:57):
I just asked Ross's right arm. He will tell tell you, seriously,
when you see him at celebration, you gotta look at it. It's
so awesome. But I'm going to give it an A,
just a nice solid A, and it's not a pejorative.
I think it's it's beautifully well done, like this entire season.
But if what happens in Gorman, the destruction of Gorman,

(46:24):
that's an A plus. That's an A plus. This doesn't
meet those levels. It's not supposed to. It's not the
same part of the story. I do like to weigh
each episode on his own merit, but it's sort of
hard for me to do that because this is sort
of a transitional piece to the finale. It works beautifully.

(46:44):
I wouldn't change a thing about it. There's nothing wrong
with it, but but it is. That's why it's a
nice solid a.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Listening to coffee with Canoe you are with Danzi.

Speaker 4 (46:55):
The podcast you're looking for this is.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
Being able to celebrate it more talking with the two
of you about it and getting to share these thoughts.
Like I've watched it three times in the past two days. Now, Wow,
I might go watch it again.

Speaker 4 (47:23):
Well you should. You know, I think I have milked
season two of and Or more than Luke with the
Thallas Ireen on Ashte Like I have really stretched this
out white my mouth here, I have really stretched this
thing out more than I thought. But I'm glad. I'm
grateful it ended a long time ago, but I think

(47:44):
there's so much here. As I've been saying since the
beginning of season two that I'm just so glad I
got to talk about it. I'm so glad I got
to talk about the two of you Ross again. So
such a pleasure to see you, see your happy, smiling face,
your great collectibles. Hopefully everybody gets a chance to podcast
with Ross Holben because his studio is very, very cool

(48:06):
and I actually got to see it in person before too,
so lucky me. Ross what's going on with you? Where
can people reach out to you?

Speaker 3 (48:12):
Yeah, so it is. Classes start next Wednesday at Butler
University and I am now working on three or four
podcasts for Butler, the Butler Arts and Events Center, everything
that's happening in the College of Communication. The Jordan College

(48:33):
of the Arts liked what we were doing so much
that they're like, how do we get a podcast? And
now I get to host that with us, you know,
a top five ballet program in the country, and theater
and digital art, fine art, all of these things, and
you know it is it's what coffee with Kenobi does.

(48:55):
It is how do you build community and make it
even stronger with other like minded groups who are around.
So I get to do that. Obviously pant the tracks
and Mark Newbold and all the wonderful friends there when
I get to contribute there as well. But yeah, that's it.

(49:16):
Look for a pop star indie on Instagram.

Speaker 4 (49:19):
Absolutely, it's a very good follow and father Jimmy, as
with you, it's anytime I get to talk with you
is a blessing. I wish that, just like with Ross,
I wish we all lived closer to each other so
we could have these coffee chats in person. But you
know what, this is a pretty great second option. What
is going on with you? And where can people reach

(49:41):
out to? Would you still like him to send snail
mail to the coffee with Kenobe Studios?

Speaker 5 (49:46):
Bad?

Speaker 4 (49:46):
Say no? What would you prefer? An album?

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Would be great. I love getting real mail. I get
very excited when I get real mail, but these days
it seems to be credit card offers and that's not
as exciting. Sure, no, but things are good. I'm still
in Montgomery County, DC suburbs. I should be here for
quite a little while longer you can find me now.

(50:10):
I started a blog based off of my excitement when
I was on for Skeleton Crew, sort of diving deeper
in with different episodes. So we can post a link
to it. It's father Jimmy's Thoughts blogspot dot com.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
Yes, I will be sure to put that in the
and report that tell people reach that work.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Yes. And one of the main reasons I was bringing
it up now was I had recently started to write
a little I do what I'd like to call pop
culture parables. Right, I take a nugget from a show
or a book or a novel, and what kind of
moral or ethical or religious theme can we get from it?
I started to write one on the first season of

(50:53):
Rebuilding the Galaxy, and I'm not quite done yet, but
hopefully by the time this episode is really east, it'll
be done. It's given me a little accountability.

Speaker 4 (51:03):
I love it. Oh that's so cool. We'll definitely be
sure to look for that. I'll be happy to share that.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
And for any fans out there, we have father Jimmy
really is pulling off the Joe Flacco look right now.

Speaker 4 (51:17):
Yes, he is the young Joe flo.

Speaker 3 (51:23):
You may have someone new to follow here.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Oh, Joe Flacco's look makes me feel torn because I
love Joe Flacco's a Ravens fan, but he's playing for
the Browns. And I'll have to admit, bros, maybe you
did this during the I think it was the year
before we won the Super Bowl with the Flacco fu manchu.
I had that. I had that. It was not a
good look on me.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
I actually died, mine purplely died.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
And I do have a picture of that, so I will.
We'll make sure you get to see that. Yes, please,
just like that.

Speaker 4 (51:59):
Our journey through the Galaxy for today has come to
a close.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (52:02):
So much again to Father Jimmy and Ross Haligan for
joining me to discuss the second last episode of season
two of and Or. What a great episode, what a
great series, what great individuals, and what a great coffee
with Kenobe community we have. I want to thank you
for listening to and supporting coffee with Kenoby, where fans
can come together to think, learn, and discuss this galaxy

(52:24):
we all love. I am so truly gratefully you chose
to spend part of your day with me. A very
special thank you to our official travel partner of Coffee
with Kenoby, Emi Travel and mouse Fan Travel. Looking to
plan your next magical vacation in Walt Disney World, Disneyland,
or even a Disney cruise, I want to explore Galaxy's
Edge or a ten Star Wars celebration. Becky Mankin and

(52:45):
her team will get you there with a no cost,
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we all appreciate. Learn more a coffee with Kenobe dot
com slash mouse Fan Travel. If you enjoyed today's conversation,
be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the
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us on social media or visit Coffee with Kenoby dot
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(53:08):
next time, I'm Dan's are and this is the podcast
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(53:28):
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(53:51):
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(54:15):
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(54:35):
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(54:56):
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Speaker 5 (55:06):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
or Lucasfilm Limited. It is intended for entertainment and informational
purposes only. The official Star Wars website can be found
at www dot star Wars dot com. Star Wars. All names, sounds,
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copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the

(55:27):
intellectual property of Coffee with Kenobi. Unless otherwise indicated, this
is the podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
There's no one here.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
On off,

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