CWK Show #834: Andor- "Jedha, Kyber, Erso"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi.

Speaker 2 (00:00):
This is Steve sand Sweet, President and chief executive of
Rancho Obi Wan, and you're listening to coffee with Kenobi
with dan Z.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
This is the podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 4 (00:12):
You can wrest there as a prisoner, as a hero.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
You need to see the place you help build.

Speaker 4 (00:21):
You need to tell them what you told us.

Speaker 5 (00:24):
Tell me why. Whenever I'm being scolded for troubling you,
I'm reminded the rebellion is bigger than all of us.
And yet when you feel inconvenienced, all I hear is
how small and how fragile the man you do not
like is here.

Speaker 4 (00:42):
Excuse us? Rod, sleep well? No ever, sleep well?

Speaker 1 (00:59):
No Jedi, Kaimer, Crystal and isb Balldin luth are dying
to get us in motion now Tivik keeps calling us
if this is on a trap, it's a brand. Light
as brands.

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This is Vanessa Marshall Harrison Dula from Star Wars Rebels
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We've got a great show for you Today we finally
look at the final episode of season two of and Or.
In fact, it's the final episode of the series. We've
got Father Jimmy and Ross Holliban with us to break
it all down for you. So pull up a chair,

(02:43):
grab your favorite mug, and let's have coffee with Kenobi. Hello, friends,
we are back. It is coffee with Kenobi. I'm your
host Stanz there, and we are finally here at the

(03:03):
season and series finale of and Or with the twelfth episode.
The episode is titled Jetta Kiber Verso and I'm bringing
the band back together from last week. These two joined
me last week. The response was terrific. It was a
great conversation. Really, every conversation I've had about season two
and Or has been fabulous. But I'm very happy to

(03:26):
have Ross Holliman and Father Jimmy back. Ross, welcome back
to the show yet again. See I didn't take as
long this time to reach out.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, this is fun. And Father Jimmy and I getting
to talk some football before we get going. That's fun
as well. And it's it feels good talking to you all,
especially after going through some of the elements of this
episode that yeah, well we'll get into and talk. And

(03:55):
it's also congrats on your bear shirt there, and let's
see what Kayleb can do in year two.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
I'm on the season ticket waitlist and I just got
my free Chicago Bears calendar from the team, and I'm
very excited to put it in my classroom tomorrow. But
you didn't come here to listen to that. You came
to hear Ross and Father Jimmy, Father Jimmy, welcome.

Speaker 6 (04:16):
Back, Glad, excited to be back. Thank you for having
me again. I always feel like I get so much
out of these conversations, and these conversations make me want
to go back and rewatch it again to pick up
on all the things that you've brought up that I
missed during my first several viewings.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
Awesome. Well, look, as I said, this is the finale.
We have gone out of our way to really make
this a feast. This is a banquet, and or is
a banquet. We weren't in a hurry. This isn't fast food.
This is a full main course meal that we wanted
to savor, and savor we have, but we got to

(04:55):
give our one word and break down the things that
really moved us in this episode. So, Ross, give me
one word. In overall reactions to Jetta kuyber or So.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
I'm going to use the word conflict. It is it's
not only the beginning of the end, So like, I'm
conflicted in terms of being excited. I remember turning it
on for the first time and just being like, I
expect this is going to be incredible, but I'm really
sad it's over. But what a journey. But then even

(05:28):
within this, the the conflict between characters inside a single
character's head of things they have to go through. I
think that theme really comes through a lot of this
and it is from all of that conflict that hope
eventually grows from.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
I like that, yeah, and it is not easily earned either,
but which of course is a very prevalent theme. Father
tim me, what about you? What word? And a sort
of over all reactions to this.

Speaker 6 (06:05):
Because I did a lot of searching to come up
with a good word for this episode, but I finally
settled on liminal, like L I M I NL being
at the threshold of something. And I really felt this
episode did well at wrapping up everything from the series
but still being a good launching point going into Rogue one.

(06:29):
A lot of what the characters are going through really
felt like a transition point, but at a transition point
that it didn't leave us hanging we know it's coming next,
and it made me excited for what's coming next, even
though I already know what's going to happen. Yeah, So
that that was the feeling that I had throughout this episode,

(06:49):
and I as well, there was the first time I
saw it, there was a bit of gravity to it
because you knew this great series was coming to an end,
and there's just an excitement about how they were going
to stick the.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
Landing, and stick it they did. You no one has
ever used We're liminal in all the years of coffee
with Kemy, So that's cool. That's cool. I love that.
I'm not gonna be able to top of either of
your original opening statements, but my word will be methodical.
This is a methodical, sort of overt manifestation of everything

(07:24):
that has been building towards We as an audience know
where it's going, we don't know how it's going to
get there, which Star Wars I think excels at that
through its many different stories that it is told to
us over the decades. It's a very methodical transition for
cassieing to get to where he is, and it's also
very much the pacing of this final episode as well,

(07:49):
which I hope that we will take a look at
father Jimmy, Why don't we start with you? Where would
you like to steer our conversation first?

Speaker 6 (08:00):
I just like to get all of your thoughts on
that the opening sequence where that picks right up from
where the previous episode left off and kind of uh
and Or and Claya and Melshie getting rescued by by
K two and they're kind of busting out and kind

(08:20):
of finally getting out of that situation. It was a
good it was a good tense moment. It was very tense.
It was very brutal. That was almost a word that
I used to describe it, just to see kind of
the bashed in Imperial not not a bashed in storm
trooper helmet, but the head. And you see K two
s O using using that the ISB agent as a shield,

(08:45):
and it was it was a very brutal rescue, and
it just was reminding me of how brutal parts of
the series have been and how brutal it must have
been for those in a rebellion and brutal from the
side of the imperials.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
Ross. I'm interested in what you think about this, because,
as I said last week, you're the biggest K two
fin I know the opening sequence is certainly a spotlight
for K two as so, but what are your thoughts
on that opening?

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, I think giving he gets a hero moment and
K two gets that hero moment coming through. That's where
conflict jumped out at me right away, because and we're
still trying to convince Claya to leave with them, So
that's right off the bat. And then as soon as
they decide that's going to happen, they face they face

(09:42):
the conflict of these IB agents coming in and it's like,
how are they going to get out of this? And
we know K two is there, and then they start
cutting away and you're getting him taking out one guard,
a second guard, going up an elevator, and then when
he gets out of that lift and is coming through,
and it also says level twenty seven. You know, I know,

(10:06):
I got a little giddy when it started, and it did.
It turned very violent, but it was it was K
two like that secure dedroid does. He's just like, I'm
going in and taking care of all of this. It
was sharp, and then you know he comes in and hey, guys,
I cleared a path we can go. So he's that

(10:29):
basic with it, and they've sustained injuries and Clay is
being carried at that point, so it was heroic and
it was very desperate and K two got another hero
moment there, so I was thrilled by it.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
This is really the only action scene. It is the
only action scene in the episode. We've gotten a lot
of action throughout the series, but this one it's almost
like we get that. It's not that we get it
out of the way first, because that's not the point,
but there we did need. If K two us is

(11:08):
going to come back, you want to see that, especially
when we see the Gorman massacre and there are all
those Imperial Security droids out there and we know what
they are capable of, and we'd never seen it on
a scale of that magnitude. So now that we have
K two under the control of Cassine and it very
much is control, there is there's a different, different dynamic.

(11:31):
He does get his hero a moment. It is pretty ghastly,
especially that ISP agent who is such a thorn and
datrus side and he is being used as a shield
and he's moving his corpse in the way when we've
already seen that K two's armor can withstand blaster fire,
but he does that, and it's just very haunting. It

(11:52):
also shows the fruitless nature of evil. What was his point.
He wanted glory, he wanted his own you know, come
up and through the imperial ranks. He wanted to be
thought of very highly. And at the end he becomes
cannon fodder. He becomes like a trinket for violence, and
it's very it's notable. There's a car. There's a karmic

(12:16):
element of it, if you want to take that direction,
but there's also no pleasure in it. And I think
what Andor continues to do better than a lot of
action series or action stories show that violence isn't cool,
Like there's no myth of redemptive violence here. This is.
This is terrible, it's tragic, it's violent. People die, and

(12:41):
there's never like a hero, raw, raw moment that someone
has died. And I think that is something that we
should really be taking a look at and really applauding
because it really makes you think, because I really at
the court at its core, and Or isn't really about
this guy. It helps find the plans to the death Star.

(13:02):
It's really about a guy who's struggling with trauma, struggling
with finding a place to belong and then finding something
that is worth fighting for in very different ways. And
that really just I think this is why I like
the show so much.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, and I again that goes back to the conflict.
It is all. They all face it with almost every
decision they make, and that is do I walk away
from this? Do I get involved in this? And there's
a there is seemingly a time and a place for
all of that, but during the heat of the moment,

(13:41):
you don't really know. So it is fun to watch
how different people navigate it and they all face those
tough decisions and with whether it's karma or just you know,
final results coming through, it has ending effects for a

(14:02):
lot of people, right.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yeah, And he was not a character I can't his
name is escaping me now, but he is not a
character that here was it supervisor?

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Here?

Speaker 3 (14:14):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (14:15):
Here?

Speaker 3 (14:15):
Yes? Yes?

Speaker 6 (14:16):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (14:16):
H is it?

Speaker 2 (14:16):
H e r t h e e r t.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
Uh. He is not a character that an redeeming qualities
at all. So it's interesting. I have a fall up
on that, but I'm going to save it because it
might lead into my next one. Ross What's yours? What's
your first topic you'd like to bring.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Up and I'm gonna save the final walk probably until
the end here because that that's the thing to talk about.
But with the conflicts and this allows us, I think,
to jump a lot of different places. Are the relationships
in the interpersonal one to one conversations that become so

(14:59):
critical in this episode. So we have Cassian and Claya,
Mathma and Vell, Cassian and Wilna, Vell and Cassian, Veal
and Clea, Draven and Cassian and Bale Oregana and Cassian.
All of those individuals speak to each other one on
one at some point during this episode, and it's about

(15:22):
to me it's building that hope and it is man.
Mathma probably says it the best to vel she wants,
she wants to believe and or give me a reason
to believe, and that reason to believe, I'm going to
turn into hope there as that gets latched onto, that's
when the momentum starts building into what we know this

(15:45):
is going to become as well. So I think it's
really special to see all of those and some people
who have been on the same page since day one,
some people who just earlier in the season we saw
a kind of snipping back and forth at each other,
and now they're helping each other in a rainstorm after

(16:06):
being brought to Yavin and you know, being told by
one person you're going to be a hero, and to
everyone else, it's just like, oh, she's Luthn's person. So
those elements, just every one of them is. I just
watched it closer and closer just meant more and more
to me. And what the storytelling is and the personal

(16:28):
growth and evolution of so many of the characters.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
I love that. And there's even that wonderful rainstorm that
you brought up. It's a very transformative thing because I
feel like that's the moment where everybody comes together man
Mathma and Bail, although he's much slower in the process.
From the Senate, You've got the original, the ogs from
you know, from Cassian and his past. You've got Clea

(16:57):
and her connection to Luthen, and they all it together,
and I feel like this is the moment. This is
the episode where the rebellion is fully cemented within itself,
like the factions are done symbolically and literally. They've all
been brought together, and I think it's so beautiful that

(17:18):
they use that with this violent rainstorm because it was
a violent storm of insanity to get everybody together. Many
people die. There's so much betrayal in fighting and jealousy
and humanity through it all, and I love that they
show it constantly, as Look, this isn't easy fighting for
what you believe in. Isn't easy. To try to find

(17:42):
that freedom and be able to be your true self
in a place where you can feel safe and secure.
That can be a challenge unless you've got the right
guiding light. And certainly they're trying to let it make
us think, at least in this series that it's castine,
especially as he acknowledges that force healer when he walks by,
and it's it's pretty neat to bring that kind of

(18:04):
triangle together into one mighty rebellion on Yavin because Clay,
as we probably remember, she's like Yavin. But but I
think she was afraid that they were going to treat
her like some sort of a criminal, like a war criminal, right,
But that didn't happen.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, And I one more kind of quick addition, and
I think how all of those work. It's the news
of Luthan's death, and no matter what anyone thought about him,
it hit everyone hard. And they needed a moment to
compose themselves, whether they agreed with him didn't agree with him,

(18:44):
that became the thing, and it was it was those
two words or three words, Luthen's dead, and you just
read the reaction of everyone and a lot of that
happens in those one on ones that I think bill
off of that as well.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
And part of it is, I think the sadness because
they know I mean, I think Casine says talks about
how it consumed him or how it basically destroyed the
person and you know, made him into who he was.
But I also think there's this part of them it's
like this is the death of the mentor moment where

(19:23):
he is the mentor of the rebellion. Without him, what
are we going to do? And that's why there's a
little bit of chaos and confusion, especially in that meeting area.
But then it all comes together. Father Jimmy, what were
you going to say?

Speaker 6 (19:36):
I'm going to say, it's also interesting, as you guys
were talking about how it comes out through all these
one on one conversations, and so the audience we are
reliving this each time, we are being reminded every time
as well that Lutheran is dead and seeing the multifaceted
character that he was, we're getting some kind of a
deeper understanding of his character, even though he's been dead

(19:59):
for a few episodes. It's now because we're seeing the
relationship he had to so many people, some positive, some
not positive, many conflicted. But I thought that it was
a very interesting that we got to relive it as
the audience several times in a row, whereas they could
have just called everyone on Yavin together and made a

(20:19):
big announcement to a big group of people, and I
think that would not have been a good way to go.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
No, probably not go ahead, Russ.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
And there was a special moment between Vell and Cassian
or I guess Vell doesn't really drink anymore, and Cassian's like, hey,
will you do one for him? And then he's and
he says, we can't toast them all, can we? And
then Vell comes back, agreeing to take the drink and

(20:53):
hold it up, and they say gorn Nemic, Tameron, Sinta,
the Gorman Pharys. She says, your mother, the Donnis. He
closes with al Donnie and then they toast, and that's
beautiful that they get that moment they've been there through

(21:14):
the whole time, and he talks about someone saying, yeah,
I've heard so many people say they were there when
it happened, and she's like, I would shoot them if
I heard someone say that.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
I believe you would.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, but they they get that moment and you know,
he was thrust upon her by Luthen and it saved
her because of it, and having to look back and
you never know what are the benefits that are coming
to you sometimes that you don't that you purposely try

(21:48):
to keep away from you and not realizing it's going
to be a benefit somewhere. So almost having that moment
between them of saying I'm glad this went the way
it did, and I'm glad that he brought us together.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
Well said, well said. I think from my first one day,
I just thought about three since we've been talking. I
want to talk about Bell's advice to Cassian about finding bicks.
What do you make of his reactions to her suggestions?
And also she follows up by urging him don't wait
too long. But what is your what was your reactions

(22:25):
to his response to that?

Speaker 6 (22:28):
I mean, my first reaction was it was a little
bit gut wrenching. I guess because we already have seen
Rogue one. That's how Lucasfilm has chosen to release these
these pieces of the story and so we know that
that doesn't happen. But yet it was still very intriguing.

(22:49):
It was still very much was a reminder of sort
of the deep down part of the humanity of Cassian
and or that's awful display I think throughout the series,
but it really gets down and he's not just a
rebel freedom fighter. He's a man who loves deeply and
has a family that he wishes he could be with,
but recognizes that if he's with his family, the empire

(23:11):
is going to come crashing down at some point and
he's going to have to go through all of this anyway.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, and it is it's one of those where she
knows a little bit more than he does, you know.
So I don't think he's aware that there's a child
in the picture. So it is one of those. Thanks
for he has gone full focus, and I think that

(23:39):
was his protection mechanism to himself when Bicks left, was like, oh,
I have to turn to this now. And we started
to see that transformation last episode during the Card Game
where it's just like, hey, now he's with the guys,
he's doing this. He's part of this machine instead, and

(24:01):
he lost a little bit of himself. I think losing Luthan,
as we've talked about here, reminds him of that a
little bit. And it is I'm doing this for Luthen,
and you know, it'd be nice at some point to
go check in on Bicks, but I've got some things
I need to focus on first, And as you said,

(24:23):
Father Jimmy, it is but we know what path he's
already following here, and.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
I think he's casting is kind of like a like
a well used knife, and every time he goes through something,
he gets sharper and sharper and more focused. I think
that was part of Bix's initial decision to leave him.
Plus I'm sure she probably knew she was pregnant and

(24:49):
knew that would be safer for a child, obviously, But
I feel like when Luthan is gone, like the way
Cassiane handles that confrontation in that conference room is not
the same as Cassie would handled it a couple of
years before. No way, he uh he even is. I
won't say he's subservient but he's willing to say his

(25:12):
peace just as easily and readily as he is to
acquiesce and let them decide and let sort of their
own democracy play out. He doesn't necessarily seem happy about it,
but he doesn't let it eat head him. And that
was what he did all season one and the majority
of the first half of season two. So that is
a really neat way to show growth without saying something like, oh,

(25:35):
you've grown, you've changed, you know. It's it allows the
audience to come up with those decisions, and I think
that's pretty neat, pretty neat.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, but he he also he defends Luthen in his
moment and reminds everyone we wouldn't be here without Luthen.
Did you know him?

Speaker 6 (25:59):
Did you know him?

Speaker 4 (26:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (26:01):
The last time I talked to him is when he
sent me to save mon Mathma.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
And that in that moment, sheet you can see you're like, Okay, yep,
completely father, Jimmy, what's the next thing you'd like to
bring up?

Speaker 4 (26:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (26:17):
I think it happened shortly after this point when he
we hear the recording of Neme's manifesto and the producers
is a really good job. They got me At first,
I was worried that they were going to do another
montage with the heroes over the Nemeic Manifesto, and I

(26:40):
was like, I was trying to remember. I was like,
I think you got that already, you don't. And then
they switched and it was the ISB Agent listening to it,
and I was like, oh, man, that was good.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
And do you think that was good? What'd you like
about that?

Speaker 7 (26:54):
Well?

Speaker 6 (26:54):
One I liked that. I started to go one way,
but they delivered a better way. Even though I was
assuming this was going to be very much. I was
assuming this is honestly going to be what played over
top of the montage that we get shortly after this,
but it went to show the impact of the rebellion.

(27:16):
It went to show that this is really seeping in
and what he's saying about the empire clenching their fists
and the rebellion slipping through. It's apparent in that moment
that comes up, I forgot that that that agent's name,
but he.

Speaker 8 (27:38):
And he's listening to it, and he understands he's done
exactly what this manifesto is saying, and he knows his
fate that's to come.

Speaker 3 (27:50):
And he ends up killing himself, probably to avoid being
killed by the Emperor or another imperial agent. He's given up,
he says he can't win mm hmm. Yeah, and it
becomes a bit of a tragedy for him as also
it is for Dadra You guys seeing her in that prison.

(28:14):
We know what that prison is like very very well.
And I don't know about you, but I couldn't help
despite all the things I couldn't help, but feel sorry
for it. And we see her break down completely helpless,
and it it impacts you more than I expected it would.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, And that's that's some of where my word for
the episode came as well, because I mean, you you
typically don't want to wish something terrible on your worst enemy,
or at least the most terrible thing on your worst enemy.
She's been that worst enemy to so many people.

Speaker 4 (28:52):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
But it's like, oh wow, it it is poetic justice
that she is in there, but it's also it's also vile.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
From a human standpoint, and that that's just talking about
being better people and.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
There's no justice for anyone, no justice for anyone in
this mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
But yeah, I've seen as soon as she as soon
as that shot came on, and then it was the
close up, and then they came back to the wider
shot seeing the bunk when the lights go out, and
you know, I'm hearing Andy Serkis's voice is Kenolly in
the background saying you know that it's coming on, you

(29:41):
better go to bed.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
Nine.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, So it is again just another beautiful moment. And
then with the manifesto and Father Jimmy, you you talked
about this and Dan party guys likeeing him break down
and knowing that he has lost he has one of

(30:07):
the words at the at the end that is spoken
when he's really starting to break down is Tyranny requires
constant effort, It breaks, it leaks, Authority is brittle. And
he is all of those things in that moment. As
Nemic is narrating that, And.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
Don't you pick up that immense exhaustion, like even though
he's carrying his his frame in that in that very
powerful scene in the sterile environment where he's matching his
clothing is matching the environment, and his identity is that
of like everyone in the empire, someone who doesn't have

(30:49):
an identity because they're forced to carry out the Emperor's plan.
It's pretty smart the whole thing. Of course, Ross, what
else would you like to to bring up to our
little coffee table here? I think we go to the
slow walk, the slow walk go ahead.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
That's kind of leading in that. I mean we we
get a little bit of that, uh or we touched
on it a little bit because that's where Dandra's devastated.
But we're getting that moment of we don't know if
andor understands what what he's getting into. He's just doing
another thing, probably to him, but we know what's happening

(31:36):
because he's going to see Tivik on caffreine. And we
get the Pekans we've talked about Dedro, we get Parrin,
we get Claia in the hospital bed, we get that
force healer who That's where it really starts wrenching, because
the look she gives him is just like, oh, he

(32:00):
might be done.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
I took it as yes, he is important, and there
was like a self assurance there. Yeah, did you see what?
She spikes the phone and says, I told you.

Speaker 6 (32:16):
Right now, it mustn't been a special cut.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
You've got damn as a special bonus. When I saw her,
and especially like I've watched it twice in the past
forty eight hours, and I really made sure I paid
attention the most recent time. She has some anguish on
her face, and that may have been the part where

(32:40):
the conflict really hit me, because she thinks the world
of him and knows that he's special and has an
important part to play. But I think she knows it's
coming to its culmination. She has a look of concern
as well as admiration. In my mind, while that's happening.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
His cup of self ring is coming from gets many
in the form of the empire.

Speaker 6 (33:03):
Yes, how about a yeah? But no Ross, I agree.
I think I think she gets it. She gets a
little bit of what's about to happen, and most of
the other characters I don't think feel that way. I
noticed in the beginning of it Cassie and is he's

(33:24):
watering his plants in his in his house, and you
don't do that if you're not coming back, you know,
And and watering your own plants before letting someone else
do it means that you think you're coming back soon.
But he's so to me. He thinks, yes, it's an
important mission, but it's just another one in the series,
and not sort of this this great final one. And

(33:48):
you got the sense too that you know, Lon and
Velle as well are kind of they're kind of united
saying next to each other, which is a much more
kind of to me, a very friendly atmosphere for them
and was and so I think they don't quite feel
the weight that there. They've kind of concluded what they
had just accomplished. But the Force Healer having her in there,

(34:11):
I think really helped remind everyone the weight of what's
what's about to happen, what we're about to get in
the next film.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
It's so interesting because I still I don't think. I
don't see it that way. It doesn't mean I'm right,
But that's the beauty of Estan's you know what I mean,
Because I don't think she's that connected. I think she's
a Force healer and she has high forced sensitivity, but
not everybody who is strong in the force, and she's
not as strong as the force as a Jedi or

(34:41):
a Sith. Not everyone can see the future or it's clouded.
I think she knew he was important. He's fully walking
with an air of importance to him, and it sort
of reaffirms her notion that there is something about this
person that is important for the galaxy, and obviously that

(35:04):
is true. But I'm glad you brought up that long walk.
I'm assuming you loved it.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Oh yeah, I mean that's that's chill inducing. That is Wait,
this is just a science fiction show. I should not
feel like I'm going to tear up because I know
what's coming. But it hits all the right notes, and
with with the theme song playing, that was cool. It
is it's just a powerful moment and getting you know,

(35:34):
then we get the shot of Saw on Jetta looking
out at everything, knowing what's about to happen there within
the next forty eight hours seventy.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Two hours, yeah, I would say, And then.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Just getting that beautiful shot of the entire Javin bass
being active in X Wings coming in, and it's just,
you know, we got teased that during the original movies
and now we're getting to live it a little bit
more even, and every moment of Javin fors and is

(36:09):
a special moment. And then Krenick watching the Dusk Star
being built.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
Without the dish because that happens in Rogue one, which
I thought was cool.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
But but we know what the next shot of that
is like you.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
Just said, Father Jimmy, did you what do you think
of the walk at the end?

Speaker 6 (36:27):
I agree, I thought it was It was a good
way to wrap up a lot of the storylines that
we have been following and also set us up for
what's to come in the future, and little snippets, little
reminders of what we've been through as an audience and
what these characters have been through to get us to
this point. One one thing that I did find interesting

(36:47):
that I'd like to hear your both of your thoughts
on is that the last line that launches into that
slow walk is when bail organisays, may the Force be
with you. And this has not been a very four
centric series, no, but that is in the most iconic
Star Wars line ever and it's what launches us into

(37:11):
that And for me, it was good because it helped
roll this story even deeper into the Star Wars lore
and mythos. It already was, but this sort of helped
pull us back and remind us of the rest of
the greater Star Wars universe. But I wanted to hear
what you guys thought about that line being what launches

(37:33):
this slow walk montage.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
So two things one when he said that I appreciate it,
but it felt forced and I felt like bail bail
seemed a little disconnected. And I don't know if that
was just a bad cut and they didn't do another take,
which seems unlikely. They're way smarter than I am when

(37:57):
it comes to that, or was They're like still that
tension with Cassian because Kato even says the man is
here that you don't like? Yeah, so did either of you?
Because I do? I want to say some about that
walk too, but did did Did you either of you
feel like it was sort of strained or like the
delivery was like you could tell there's something not quite

(38:20):
full about that? So what like when Hans says it
and yeah and a new hope of course, will you
like he doesn't quite believe what he's saying, but he
says that anyway.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
So kind of how I looked at it. And again,
we haven't had much of that. This hasn't been light Sabers.
This hasn't been the light side versus the dark side?
How how we know it through the mythology of Star
Wars that you're such an expert on Dan, But what
jumped out at me here and it is the final

(38:52):
words that we get from Neemeic that's read in this
oppression is the Mask of Fear. That line the one
of the most recent books that came out is The
Mask of Fear, and in that book, throughout it like
one of the main things that bail Organa is focused

(39:13):
on is clearing the name of the Jedi. And he
is going to carry that torch forward regardless because he
knows something went wrong with it. So in my mind,
and maybe I'm trying to see this, I see it
as his olive branch of welcome to my You shared

(39:34):
your view of this and what Luthan brought to you
with it, mine came from the Jedi. So may the
Force be with you as you continue your journey. So
that's how I read it. But that is tying into
the book, that is lots of different elements coming in.
That is cheating beyond just watching.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
It's not cheating. I think that's a beautiful, cogent, lovely
way to interpret it, and I I love that. I
think that's great. I like that. I want to talk
about the Walk. I've watched it a couple times, not
just to Walk, but to this the episode and it's
just it falls flat for me. I think. I think

(40:16):
sort of like when Mathma gave her speech. It reminds
me of the Ralph Bakshi animated movie of the Hobbit.
I love it. That's crazy, but I love it. And
there's a part where Bilbo finds the ring of power
and he's holding it up and he says something, yes,

(40:36):
your words ring and true, Bibill, that ring certainly has
a ring of truth to it. And I just thought
that is so captain obvious. It's like I had a
professor in college used to say, that's so obvious that
it's insulting. It's like someone takes a wet trot out
of the stream and slaps you in the face. This
is the wet trout moment for me, because it's like,

(40:58):
and even like he is peacocking, he's not walking with purpose.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
He's like, there's a little travolta to it.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
Big time, And maybe that's how he walks in in rogue.
One fine, I get that, and he has a renewed purpose,
but he is so purposed and focused. I don't think
he needed to be. I don't it just I felt
like like with Mathma speech, it was like the creators
for all their genius saying, oh, this is important. We're

(41:28):
really going to focus on that. Don't you know this
is important? Wink wink, push push, let me slap you
with the wet trout, And it just did. It fell
flat for me, And I guess I I this is
the problem with the genius of and or knowing it's
the last episode of the series. I keep thinking this
is going to lead it right up into Rogue one.
Oh my gosh, So nothing can live up to the

(41:51):
hype in your brain. And that might that's my fault.
That being said, I just I don't know something about that.
It was a little little too melodramatic, and I think
it kind of took away from it, at least for me.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Okay, yeah, and I can. I can absolutely appreciate that
and see it, especially with some of the shot of
making him bigger than Yavin, like that was how they
transposed shots at times.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
And the season wasn't like that. In fact, some of
them he wasn't even a part of it.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
But I also think that, and I think why I
enjoyed it. It was almost him taking This episode was
about him taking the baton from Luthen sure, and he did.
He elevated to that next level. And maybe his walk
was you know, as you mentioned. I'm thinking, yeah, it

(42:49):
was a little out there, but it was going by
Wilman and his girlfriend. It was going by these individuals
who are just in the regular course of their day,
and he's he's heading to his end, even though he

(43:11):
doesn't know it yet. We know, and I think that's
the storytelling component. It's coming through from it. But I
am not discounting what you said by any stretch.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
It does.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
I see that so much. I think fan boying. I
just buy it.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
I like him, I liked it, and I appreciate your
This is why I love coffee with Koby so much,
because even when we have different perspectives or opinions, we
still make those bridges and that I think that's the
beauty of this conversation. So thank you both for that
paying attention.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
We see it different, and.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
That's right, It's it's super cool. I love your perspective. Father, Jimmy,
anything you want to add or should we move on
to something else. I realized only one big thing I
want to talk about still, But if you want to
weigh in on the the Travolta.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
He didn't have a paint hand, so that was disturbing.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
That's true. And there was no disco music all that
would have been rad.

Speaker 6 (44:08):
That would be pretty cool. I'm glad they chose the
music they did for this month that.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
It was without that music. I think that music helps
a lot.

Speaker 6 (44:15):
Yeah, yeah, I liked it. I thought it was good.
I Dan, I understand your points on it, but I
don't know how else they really wrap it up. Would
have been missing if they didn't go that route, especially because.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
I would have liked to have seen a little angst,
because clearly the being of Rugue one, he is full
of angst. He is a mess. He's anxious. He doesn't
seem anxious in this.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah, no, that's that. That is a very good point.
With the tool and getting to caffeine, he's I don't know.
Maybe K two spilled his calf on him in the
right over and that just sets him off.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
He would be a little joint to travel with. The
Only thing I want to talk about and I want
to hear, was you both any last man? I thought
you either of you have as well? Is the conversation
where he's trying to persuade them about Lutheran's news in
the conference room and Bail I don't know that I've

(45:18):
ever seen bail or ganas such a poop face. You know,
he's he's really determined to not believe him. He knows
Cassing came storming, in which casting is very apologetic for.
He's not a defensive He just wants to help Cleia,
who seems very lost. And I think it's because the

(45:40):
ramifications of killing her father figure and just feeling like
she suddenly has no purpose anymore. So she's forced to
live in her trauma without hiding through through action is
quite notable. But bail was so frustrating here and I
don't understand his purpose other than Luthan. I couldn't necessarily

(46:03):
he made me nervous. He made me uncomfortable, and it
isn't del Cassie reminds him that because of luthen Monmotha
was safe, who was an essential part of this entire operation.
But it was frustrating to me. And that's probably just
the politics and why I don't like politics in the
real world or in the fictional world, because even when

(46:23):
it seems so obvious, people just had to argue and
maybe that's just a piece of realism that I have
a hard time seeing, whether it's in fiction or reality.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
And I think he's had from the political side of things.
He's had to wear his own mask in the Senate. Yeah,
things moving, and to exist within that group, I think
because it was frustrating to me as well, and the
other two senators who help stop when Jin is making

(46:56):
her please to attack Scaiff, it's the same one. They're
just like, oh, we don't know that, that's not a fact,
Like we can't act on that. They don't want to
do anything.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
They don't want to Jeo rize what's been so hard
to put together? But the point is it's together because
of Luthen.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Right, and it's there. But then I think the payoff
for that and what helps turn him around into sending
Cassian is first recognize it when he says noted, when
he says, Luthern sent me to send her. But then

(47:32):
when everyone's walking out, Mon says to him, this is
harder than the Senate or this is harder than whatever
I'm paraphrasing. But she's like, this is harder than politics.
And I think that wrung true to him of oh,

(47:52):
I'm not. I'm not in the Senate Chamber anymore. I
don't need to play those games the same way, right,
I like that.

Speaker 6 (48:00):
I liked this scene partially because to me, it brought
me back to reality. I felt like it was very
grounding into what the rest of the rebellion is experiencing.
Like when they were kind of rehashing what they know
about what's been brought to them, I was like, Oh, yeah,
this is pretty flimsy, like they don't actually have that

(48:22):
much to stand on. Whereas we as the audience, we've
seen the Death Star, you know, and that kind of
add on shot at the end of the first season
where we see it coming together and you know what's happening,
and we know it's going to happen, and so we
as an audience are very aware of what's going on
and how right Luthin is and how right they are

(48:43):
to really go after this thread. But when it's actually presented,
there's a sense of there's not actually that much there
in the reality of things, there's not actually too much
to go on, And it was that sort of sense
it I was like, oh, yeah, that there's not really
much there. I know a lot more than these characters do,
but the characters don't actually have they haven't seen the

(49:03):
movies like I.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
Have, right, right, fascinating, Well, a gentleman, anything you want
to bring up or are you ready for letter grades?

Speaker 6 (49:14):
I guess one. It's just a little thought. I was
very glad that the shot with Bicks at the very
end was before the credits and not a post credit
scene too. I think sometimes the post credit scenes they
can be fun and they can be interesting, but I
thought that one had a lot more weight to it,

(49:36):
and by I almost feel like by putting as a
post credit scene, then you develop all these speculations about, well,
what's going to happen? Is is their child going to
be some character in the future. But by having it
before the credits, it ended on a very hopeful note.
And yes, we already knew that Cassie in sacrifice at

(49:59):
the end of Rogue One wasn't in vain, but now
it's even more not so now it has an even
deeper redeeming quality behind it.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Do you think that Cassie knows he has a child
and that's why he's so like I don't. I don't know,
But that's that's total fan speculation. I don't know. I
don't information. I don't think he does.

Speaker 6 (50:22):
I don't think he does either.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Yeah, but I did love even just before that, like
that's beautiful and took it to a whole other level.
But what really filled me with joy in just that
moment of there are good things happening even during bad
times was B two Emo playing with that other droid

(50:46):
and you talk about like the most stressed out, sad
droid of all time, and now he's playing chase with
another droid and it looks to me like let's play,
let's go again.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
Yeah, or one more time or something. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
That just that just light lighted me up, like I
was just like that, that makes me happy. And then
that turned into Bicks in the Baby and it's just like, yeah,
here here is the moment of hope from out of
the chaos and out of all the other elements.

Speaker 3 (51:23):
It was pretty. It was really beautiful and to see life,
to quote Steven Spielberg film life finds a way, and
she's in this beautiful field and they pin on her
for a long time. She's beautiful, she's happy, she's holding
her child, she's completely relaxing at piece and at that moment,
you hope the Empire will leave them alone. But you

(51:45):
just get the sense that they're going to be okay.
And I think it's comforting to us that the legacy
and strength of Cassian and his mother are going to
live on. And for the record, I don't need a
comic book or a book or anything about that little kid.
Let that kid just be a normal kid. Every story
isn't a story. I think it was pretty lovely the

(52:06):
way they did it.

Speaker 4 (52:07):
There, agreed, Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
All right, Well it is time for our last grade
for and or season two and a wait, we can
give a letter grade for the season overall, but I
mean it's pretty obvious what we're going to say. But ROSSL. Sorr,
are you a letter grade for Jedi or sorry? Jeda
kyper Urso and final thoughts, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
I think it just pulled everything together an unapologetic A
plus Rogue one is my favorite film for a reason,
and then these two seasons in this series fit perfectly.
It is everything I wanted in more and got into

(52:56):
character development, introduced more people that made more people care.
I got a non star Wars fan who is a
professor at Butler through other discussions we were having and
I was just like, have you watched and or he's like, no,
my husband watched. He says it's good. I was just like,
you really need to watch it.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
That's cool.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
And within two and a half weeks she's like, I'm
starting this episode. I'll be done by like Wednesday, and
sent me an article because she started researching it afterwards
and was just like I was blown away. So that
means everything to me. When art can do that, and

(53:41):
entertainment can be infotainment and educate people as well and
allow someone who may not think in a science fiction
form or fashion, this is a great way to communicate.
It's special. So Gilroy, Luna, O'Reilly, everyone involved with this

(54:04):
Scars Guard, thank you so much. It what an awesome,
awesome ride.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Beautiful. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Speaker 4 (54:16):
Listening to coffee with Canoby, you are with Dean Z.
The podcast you're looking.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
For is, which is why I'm gonna have father Jimmy
coenext so I don't have to father Jimmy. Your letter
grade for the episode, the season and final thoughts.

Speaker 6 (54:40):
Yeah, my letter grade for this episode isn't a a soliday.
I don't think i'd be a good teacher, because I
would kind of grade off of what else has come out,
but this was a soliday. It ended things well. But
I just felt throughout the series of only a few episodes,
I really want to give an A plus two and
so I I thought the you know, the final episode

(55:02):
in Kena five was a plus, the final episode in
season one a plus. The Gorman massacre episodes, I thought
those were, you know, a plus. And so that's sort
of my A plus level. And this is as shy
of that as you can get, but not quite there.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
I get you that you've been consistent with your roup.
That's good. That's a good thing. I want to give
it an A plus purely because one of the important
things to me about a story that's within a larger story,
as it wraps up every plot point without and you

(55:41):
can dangle some things for fun that move the story
forward in ways that we don't get to experience, like
their child, but everybody's arc was wrapped up, not only
in this episode, throughout the entire season, and in spite
of my uncertainty about the little walk at the end,

(56:03):
what else can you do? You're setting up for Rogue one.
It's beautifully done. It's a masterpiece. The entire season, The
entire series is in a plus. I still think that
season two is far superior to season one, for whatever
that's worth. But this is must see television whether you

(56:24):
are or aren't a Star Wars fan, and I think
as it goes on, it will continue to age beautifully,
just like all of us. And I'm just so excited
and proud to live in a time when I get
to experience something like and Or with the two of
you and everyone who's joined us on Coffee with Kenobe,

(56:45):
whether you've listened, commented online on Facebook or social media,
or been a guest on our previous show, it's really
been a pleasure and a delight. Gentlemen, Father Jimmy, again,
thank you so much for being back on coffee with Canobe.
You know I'll be bothering you incessantly to come back
in the future, but again, thank you so much. It's

(57:05):
been a it's been a real pleasure to learn from
you and chat with you about and Or.

Speaker 6 (57:10):
You're welcome. It's been my pleasure. This has been a great,
great two weeks in a row to talk about such
a great series. And I always get so much out
of talking with you about this kind of stuff and
other things Dan and Ross. It was it was great
to finally be on a show with you and talk
things out as we As it came out a little
bit last episode, I'm always like, oh yeah, that guy's

(57:32):
also from Baltimore. I gotta we got this, you know.
And so this is this has been great. It's been
a blast. I very much appreciate being on and and
talking about Star Wars and just digging into it.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
And Ross again, as you know, I just think the
world of view and I'm just so happy to share
the microphone with you any chance I get on this
show other shows, I was like to learn and listen
and laugh with you as well. Please let us know
what's going on with you and more people can reach
out and say hello.

Speaker 4 (58:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
So for Star Wars style, go to at pop Star
Indie on Instagram. You know, maybe not fully as active currently,
but I'm still around, but finding work on Phanto tracks
that team there based out of the UK is fantastic.

(58:29):
I was on a recent episode of Rebel Bass Card
with Greg McLoughlin and Greg cass as they start their
rewatch of and Or season two. So I just talked
episode one two nights ago. Oh my gosh, So it
is all of a sudden. It went from zero to
sixty really quick, and I just it's it's so hard

(58:51):
not to get excited about having an excuse to go
back and watch. I can watch this a couple more
times again, so that's awesome. And I think more often
than not, you're gonna find me in front of a
television of watching football now that we are one week
and one night away from or actually yeah, one night

(59:14):
next Thursday.

Speaker 3 (59:16):
They're down. Baby, there we go.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
So good luck to everyone's teams. Let's have a Let's
have the stars stay healthy, the refs stay out of
the way, and lots of excitement from week to week.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
And just like that, our journey through the Galaxy for
Today has come to a close. A huge thank you
to Father, Jimmy and Ross for joining me this week
and last week of course to talk about and celebrate
the ending of Andrew. What a special series, what a
special season. I can't wait to see what is next
from the world of Lucasfilm and Disney. And thank you
for listening to and supporting Coffee with Kenoby, where fans

(59:51):
come together to think, learn and discuss the galaxy we
all love. I'm really grateful you chose to has been
part of your day with me. A special thank you
to our official travel partner am I Travel and mouse Fantravel.
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(01:00:11):
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(01:00:32):
more ways to connect. Until next time, I'm dan Zaire
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(01:00:54):
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(01:01:17):
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(01:01:40):
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(01:02:00):
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(01:02:22):
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Speaker 7 (01:02:31):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
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at www dot star Wars dot com. Star Wars, all names, sounds,
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copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the

(01:02:52):
intellectual property of Coffee with Kenobi. Unless otherwise indicated.

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