CWK Show #839: Matthew Stover & Tom Hoeler Discuss Revenge of The Sith Novelization 20th Anniversary

Episode Transcript
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We've got an amazing sh show for You'd say. Matthew
Stover and Tom Holder are here to talk about the
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith novelization anniversary edition featuring

(02:08):
annotations from the author himself. I am so excited that
I get to have this conversation with these two gentlemen,
and then I get to share it with each and
every one of you. So full of a chair, grab
your favorite mug, and let's have coffee with Kenobi. I'm

(02:31):
sure you remember. But the year was two thousand and five.
The last film at the time, so we thought, was
Star Wars Revenges of the Sith, the last film and
this incredible prequel trilogy. But before that, the novelization came out,
a novel that I think it's fair to say blue

(02:55):
fans out of the water because it was there was
something familiar and yet something so incredibly different. And now
you listeners have this opportunity in October fourteenth to buy
Star Wars Revenge is Sith Episode three, the Deluxe Edition
with over one hundred and seventy annotations and a new
introduction by my very special guest, the one only, matthe

(03:16):
u Stover. Matthew, Welcome to coffee with Kenoby. Thank you,
I'm glad to be here and also joining us. He
he is the inspiration behind the perspiration for this incredible
deluxe edition. Returning guest Tom Holder. Tom, Welcome back to
coffee with Kenobe.

Speaker 4 (03:38):
Hello, Dan, it is really awesome to be here and
nice to talk to you again.

Speaker 5 (03:42):
Yeah, so this is this is pretty fantastic because this
novel really is so incredibly special for a lot of
reason we're going to talk about and Matthew, I want
to talk to you about this now. You certainly cover
this a little bit in the beginning, but I think
there's more we could probably discuss when you look back.
Can you kind of walk us through, can take us

(04:04):
in a time machine if you will, about what it
was like when you first wrote this book as far
as the anticipation and preparation, Oh.

Speaker 6 (04:12):
Well, it was an unusual experience for me. It was
my first time taking on the project this size, and
I don't know it was it was kind of terrifying.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
It was.

Speaker 6 (04:29):
I was tremendously flattered to be asked. I don't know
if you if you recall that the previous two authors
who did novelizations for the prequel trilogy are fantasy authors, uh,
tremendously higher profile writers than me and.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
I, I don't know.

Speaker 6 (04:52):
I took it as a I took it as a
compliment and just decided I was going to try and.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Do the best I could with it.

Speaker 5 (05:02):
And you talked in the intro about going to Skywalker
Ranch and meeting George to talk if you would about
that experience.

Speaker 6 (05:14):
Well, as I think I allude to a little bit
in the introduction, I don't really remember a lot of
it all that clearly. I was just at Legends Expo.
It is a convention they run in Burbank that is
or ran in Burbank, that is devoted to Star Wars

(05:38):
fiction novels. And one of the other guests there this
time was Jim Lucino, who was sort of my Star
Wars Guru when he was part of the project that
I first signed on for, and he reminded me that
he had actually been in the room for that meeting. Now,

(06:00):
Jim was a friend of mine, I had known, I
had known him for some years by that time, and
I'm I'm sure I was very glad to have, you know,
another writer as opposed to just me and a couple
of editors and him. But I had no no recollection

(06:21):
when I was when I was doing the you know,
thinking back, actually I had I remembered some people there
who weren't there. So because all I was, all I
was thinking about was the questions I wanted to ask him,
and and you know, because I just I had a
couple of kind of out there ideas for approaching this book,

(06:47):
and I was I was just trying to sound it
out on how how much I could get away with.
And well you saw what happened.

Speaker 5 (06:58):
I sure did. Unfortunately, I think I think it worked
out quite well, certainly for all of us who enjoy this,
this incredible story. So Tom, I want to ask you.
Of course, you are the editorial director of Fiction and
Special Projects for Random House Worlds. You've worked on a
lot of Star Wars, a lot of Star Wars, but

(07:18):
I want to talk to you about do you remember
first reading Revenge of the Sith when it came out?

Speaker 4 (07:25):
To actually give this a little bit of thought, and
I what I can recollect is that of the three
prequel novelizations, it's actually the only one I didn't read
before the film I read. I remember reading, you know,
Phantomens before the film, remember reading the Taglis, but I
didn't read Revenge of This. I can't recall why. I
might chalk it up to like I was a senior

(07:47):
in high school and like had other things going on,
But I do remember that, you know, obviously, like rushing
out to see the film the day it came out, cetera.
And I remember reading it like a week later when
I was between viewing as an optimily, I think I
saw event sit somewhere between four and five times in
the film in theaters. And I remember reading the novelization

(08:08):
a week later and being so surprised just because it
didn't read not just like any of the other Star
Wars novelizations I've read, but certainly any moving novelization I
had ever read. And I remember reading it and looking
around and it was in a time in my life
when I had I had folks to talk to about
Star Wars, but I didn't have a group of people

(08:29):
who were also reading Star Wars novels. I it was
kind of like my fun little like solitary thing, like
reading Star Wars books was the part of Star Wars
was kind of just mine. So I remember reading it
and then like looking around and just having nowhere to
go with my reactions my emotions by like is like
I could not I had no outlet for it, So
I just read the book again. It was like the

(08:51):
only way to process having read something like that was
just like all right, I'm just gonna read it. And
I remember reading it quite a few times in succession,
like by the time early this summer had rolled around,
and it was it sits among those kind of moments
where you read a book and then you're like, I
didn't know you were allowed to do that.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
In a book.

Speaker 4 (09:10):
And maybe that was just because maybe I wasn't as
well read as high school senior as I thought it was,
But it really was this moment where I started to
think about what a like science fiction fantasy, and particularly
like what a Star Wars book potentially could be. I
had read some of Matt's other work and actually read
some of that's original and non Star Wars work, so
I was aware of Matt as a writer when when

(09:34):
I picked up the book and saw he had written it.
But even even so, I was like so taken aback
by it in the best way, and it was just like,
I really wish that I had someone that could have
really shared in that excitement with I remember trying to
get my friends to go check it out and they're like,
we can just go see the movie again, and I
was like, all right, well, I guess fair, but no.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
But it was.

Speaker 4 (09:56):
It was great, and it's it's held a special place
for me ever since, which which is why we wanted
to do this project, or one of the reasons.

Speaker 5 (10:04):
So that actually transitions beautifully into this idea of the
deluxe edition. Of course it's a twentieth anniversary, but I
can't I'm sure that plays a part. But how does
for the impetus and the direction for the deluxe edition
come out?

Speaker 4 (10:20):
So it starts from the right. Okay, there's a Star
Wars anniversary coming for a film, and you know the books.
The Star Wars Books team and Star Wars Publishing is
lucky enough that we've been able to publish so many
things over so many years that whenever there's like a
movie or TV or other kind of Star Wars inners,
there is probably a book anniversary somewhere in there too,
you know, to take a look. And so you're thinking about, well,

(10:40):
how do we celebrate the twentieth anniversary. There's any number
of ways you could do that, and immediate lab was like,
because I like to look these things up and keep
in eye, I was like, Revenge of the Sith as
a hardcover book has not been available as a new
book in twenty years. It's been out of print since then. Interestingly,
obviously you can find it in a number of release
I was like, we should do a deluxe edition. And

(11:01):
I have always had in my mind all of these
questions and this thought of like I would love to
just sit down and talk to Matt Stover about this
book and about how he did this. And I was like,
I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way.
And so if we're gonna make this amazing, deluxe, cool
package that people can put on their shelf and really
enjoy and really accentuates the story inside of it. Why

(11:23):
don't we go ask matt if he wants to come
tell us about it? And so that is where the
idea came from to not just make like a cool
special book as a physical object, but imbue it with
these annotations in this author's note and this experience of
having met essentially sitting next to you telling you about
the book and his process and how he came up

(11:43):
with it along the way. So it's kind of just like, well,
I want this, I think other people do. And I
was able to convince enough other people that they were like,
all right, Tom seems really excited about this, and everyone
else on the team who has read the book, and
I even roped in Star Wars authors who have all
been so in influenced by this book or who speak
you point to this book as their favorite Star Wars book.

(12:03):
I'm like, look, it's not just me. Look all these
other authors, all these other people, and we were able
to get everybody really excited about celebrating the anniversary in
a unique and special way.

Speaker 5 (12:15):
And definitely mission accomplishment. So, Matthew, for you, when you
were approached, what were your reactions to revisiting this and
going through and making these annotations. It is seemed like
a lot of fun based on what I was reading.

Speaker 6 (12:32):
Oh well, I thought it was a terrible idea. I
had no interest in doing that. I writing it. There's
a kind of magic involved that that involves, you know,
your imagination filling in all of the holes that I'm

(12:53):
leaving in the in the story that you're reading. And
I just I felt like, I don't know, I didn't
want to be talking about I didn't want to spend
take people away from the story, talking about you know,
why why this is good or that's good or whatever.

(13:14):
Just it's not it's not my it's not my kind
of thing. And it was Tom who basically told me
that story. But briefly, he just he very briefly just said,
you know a lot of Star Wars fans right themselves,
and they might be interested in finding out how you,
you know, came to some of your more eccentric storytelling choices.

(13:36):
And when he framed it like a teachable moment, well,
you know, my mother was a teacher, my my grandmother
was a librarian.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
It's I it, I don't know, it made it.

Speaker 6 (13:51):
It made it kind of fun to just to just
talk about how desperately I was scrambling for any way
I could come up with to try and express, you know,
how important I thought the story is.

Speaker 5 (14:08):
So was it had you revisited a lot over the years?
Was it kind of like meeting an old friend for
the first time in a long time.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
Well, I.

Speaker 6 (14:21):
Not really. I revisit my own work from time to time.
I'm rereading one of my books now because I'm writing
another book about their character. But no, sometimes sometimes there's
somebody If I see a reference somebody makes online or something,
and I think, you know, that's an interesting take on

(14:43):
that bit, I go back and reread it because a
lot of times, you know, people get things out of
a story that you know, I did not put there
on purpose, and it's it's always interesting to me to
see what they latch onto. And so yeah, the answer
is yes and no.

Speaker 5 (15:03):
Right, well, I think that's fantastic. So there must have
been well maybe there weren't, But were there obstacles to
creating a twenty the anniversary edition of this? And how
did you overcome them? Because there's more to it than
just reproducing the beautiful prose. But there's a lot of

(15:24):
special things that go into this because you want to
celebrate the over one hundred and seventy annotations, but just
the idea that this is especially anniversary as well.

Speaker 4 (15:32):
The best and biggest obstacle we ran into is one
that Matt and I got to share together, which is,
you know, after we sort of talked to that about
what the goal was for the annotations and authors and
other stuff, and we sort of were like, Okay, we're
going to do this, and we had kind of agreed,
Matt made a coaching point. He was like, I have
never done this before. I don't quite know how to

(15:54):
do this. And I had to be extremely honest with
Matt and say, I don't know how to do this either.
I have never done this before. And so we had
to figure out together how exactly do you actually make
an annotated Like how do you make annotations? How do
you actually do this? Yeah, and I Matt made a

(16:14):
suggestion that I still can't quite believe he made, and I, like,
Matt asked me. And it feels with it that I'm
speaking from Matt who is also on this in this conversation,
but it's because I I was so taken aback in
the best way, and I have thought about it, like, honestly,

(16:36):
ever since you asked when you said, well, would you
annotate the book first? Which was your suggestion of asking
me to go through the book and earmark or circle
or underline and and just note either scenes, lines, chapters,
just moments where you thought that readers or might like
that people might have a question. You know, Oh there's

(16:57):
things we have questions that cool, you know, go circle
that or go at you know, layer them into the book.
And then essentially I gave the annotate the version that
I innotated to Matt, and Matt used that as his
roadmap to that sort of follow behind and say, oh,
you're asking a question about you know, this is how
it feels, you know, to be an Skywalker forever. Okay, great,

(17:18):
I can now just answer that question, or at least
can look at this section, you know, and find something
to pull together. That was honestly the biggest challenge was
us just figure out, well, how do.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
We do this? Yeah? Well, honestly I didn't know. I
didn't remember that you were new at this.

Speaker 6 (17:34):
That just seemed like this seemed like the obvious way
to go about this, because I don't I don't have
any way of knowing what other people are going to
be curious about, because for me, it's all it's all
one thing, right.

Speaker 4 (17:48):
Yeah, right, So, and I soalve that challenge in a
very funny way, which is one I can't remember if
I told Matt any of this. The first thing I
did is I went back all all the way to
two thousand and four, two thousand and five, and I
found every single interview that Matt has ever done about
this book, written recorded.

Speaker 5 (18:09):
Matt.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
You may may recall you did an author blog for
like AOL the Washington Post blog when you are on
the when you are on your author tour for this book,
and you did like daily blogs Richard Hive of Scum
and Villainy. Yes, you did daily blogs. I found all
of those in an Internet archive and read all of them.
I basically found every word you'd ever spoken about this

(18:31):
book to know what are the things he has already
talked about and what are the things he hasn't And
I figured I sort of mapped all that stuff out.
And then what I did was I secretly just solicited
and collected tons of questions and moments of the book
to ear mark and identify from other star wars readers

(18:53):
in every corner of the known galaxy that I could
find my friends fell authors. When I was at an
event where I was like, you know, in a conversation
online community, I would just be like, ask me, oh, man, cool,
and I would just broadly like bring it up, and
then watch the conversation for it and just make notes
of like, man, everyone's talking about this scene or that thing.
And I use all of this as a roadmap to

(19:15):
then go through and circle and mark and figure out
like what to your point, like, what are people going
to be interested in? And to try to also create
as a diverse a set of questions, right to not
just be like tell me, why, tell me how you
came up with this cool line of dialogue, Right to
try to layer in a plurality of things that you
could make teachable moments and that you could share with people.

(19:39):
And it's it was so much fun. And I have
no idea that it.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Was really fun to do too. It wasn't like work
at all.

Speaker 6 (19:48):
It's not like writing because I didn't I didn't have
to make anything up.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Telling the truth is the easiest thing in the world.

Speaker 5 (19:58):
So did you, like, did you sort of read it
and sort of like write things down as you went
along that you thought would be interesting, because I'm sure
there were some maybe that didn't make the final cut
just for purposes of spacing, or was it all pretty
much in there?

Speaker 1 (20:15):
I think we could very much.

Speaker 6 (20:16):
There were some things that where I repeated myself, I
think that okay, but that that kind of stuff where
I think you covered this some you know somewhere, But
other than that, I don't think.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
I don't remember that was straight up, you know, shot down.

Speaker 4 (20:34):
No, I don't. Yeah, I think there was a there
were a couple of places where we ended up with
like three or four things like that were all going
to be close to each other, so we sort of
consolidated a couple for spacing, and to yourppointment, there was
definitely one or two pos were like, yeah, we covered
this and there's a lot of density here, so let's
make that. But almost everything that Matt put down as
an annotation made it in in some form, and for

(20:57):
the most part it was just like cool, little proofread,
a little bit of a tweaker edit here, a little
bit of specification, good to go.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
Fact checking, Yeah, a little bit of fact.

Speaker 4 (21:09):
Checking about years and dates, and sure you know, like that.

Speaker 5 (21:16):
Well that and I couldn't imagine that anything would be
like not ad it, except just because spacing is such
a challenge in the publishing world. So I'm grateful to
hear that. So we might as well just talk about
the annotations. They are absolute. Look, I'm coming at this
from a couple of different directions, both just as a fan,
of course of Star Wars, as an educator for twenty years,

(21:40):
as an English teacher, high school English teacher, and then
it's just a Star Wars podcaster. So I'm wearing all
these hats and it hits all those right notes because
mythology of Star Wars is such a wonderful thing, so
this is a must read. Annotations are The annotations are
excuse me, for fans of Star Wars as well as
fans of good literature, because during the process of writing these,

(22:02):
it was it's quite been a cognitive I would have madgines.
So what did you learn about yourself as a writer
twenty years ago in examining the book?

Speaker 1 (22:08):
I knew.

Speaker 5 (22:09):
I wonder if you've found yourselfing. I wonder if I
would were that any differently, or if you were just
what that must have been like for you.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
I don't. I don't recall.

Speaker 6 (22:23):
I don't recall thinking about that that much. There were
a few places that I was going through and rereading
something that, you know, that had not been called to
my attention in the intervening years, so I hadn't read
it forever. And there were a few places where I
where I thought, where I thought, you know, that that

(22:44):
was okay. I was I didn't remember that. I didn't
remember that being that good. But that's that's just me.
I mean, I'm I am. I am my own biggest fan.

Speaker 5 (22:57):
Hey, as you should be. And you have some fun
with that too. And some of the annotations, especially early on,
when there's a description of Count Dooku and you talk
about his his sort of way that he looks at himself,
and you playfully describe yourself in those annotations as well.

Speaker 6 (23:16):
Oh yeah, yeah, people, something about the the people with
the high, highly inflated self regard are easy to manipulate. Yes,
And I mentioned that that I have been prone to
that myself from time to time, something like that.

Speaker 5 (23:38):
It was very fun the tone, I will say too,
as someone looking at this novel truly for the first time,
I very much like Tom I didn't read it when
it first came out, and I think it was just
because college and you know, getting married and all kinds
of stuff. I found the moments of annotation I looked

(24:00):
or to them eagerly because again, I'd just like to
study the mythology of Star Wars anyway. But it also
sounds a bit of nice a levity because, as you
both know very very well, this is a very heavy
book with incredibly dark tones. So I almost found it
like kind of a welcoming relief on occasions, also a
very unique way to experience this book.

Speaker 6 (24:22):
Well, I just hope, honestly, I really hope that very
few people will read the book for the first time
in the annotated.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Edition, because it just because it just it.

Speaker 6 (24:37):
The idea of somebody reading the book with my voice
inside their head saying and this part is about it
just gives me an itch that I just can't scratch.

Speaker 5 (24:50):
Well, I think the bomb for that it is going
to be the fact that the Star Wars fans I know,
and the listeners of coffee with Kenobi, they are going
to eat this up like it's Thanksgiving dinner, because this
is the kind of stuff that we talk about when
we're reading, when we're watching the films, and we're watching
a Disney Plus series. These are things we analyze and
talk about and discuss, and I think I hope that

(25:13):
you will be pleasantly happy and delighted to know that
you have served up something or we wanted this. It's
a it's very much a dream come true for fans
of this incredible literary work. And I don't say that lightly.
I'm pretty much a book snob as an English teacher,
but this is a literary feast, and I think these

(25:34):
annotations just give it even more to enjoy. So I
appreciate that so much.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah, that's what we were doing. We were doing it
for for the for the history. That's right.

Speaker 5 (25:45):
That's right. Mission accomplished. Mission accomplished.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Tom.

Speaker 5 (25:49):
You since you got to experience this in many ways,
as you mentioned, this is sort of like a first
time for you as well. What did you learn about yourself?
This is as a fan and a lover of the
written word going through this, What did I learn about myself?

Speaker 1 (26:06):
Well?

Speaker 4 (26:06):
Now I know how to make an annotated edition, which
is good in case everyone into that. Again, I gosh,
what did I learned? I it certainly gave me a
chance to go back to this book in totality in
a way that I haven't in the last number of years.
And I think part of that is because of the
way this book has become so both totemic and enduring

(26:31):
that it becomes one of those things that like you
often just experience being in a you know, in the
Star Wars community, like you just experienced it in bits
and pieces because someone's always referencing it, or another writer
is making an homage to and stuff, and it's like
you're experiencing it all the time, but you're not experiencing
the full thing, and actually going back to experience the
story from start to end multiple times and really getting

(26:54):
to luxuriate in all the ways in which Matt makes
that story unfold like a like really wonderfully composed piece
of origami. Uh is was really almost surprising in a
way that I'd just like forgotten about, because again, I
hadn't actually gone on the full ride of the book

(27:15):
in quite a while. You know, I'd jump in to
read a chapter of something, or you know, check out
a scene or or pull pull something as a piece
of inspiration. And so getting to do that and getting
to spend time with it was great as well as
that first time I read it front to back, right
near the end of the process with the annotations in there,

(27:38):
and read it as like, Okay, I'm gonna read this paragraph,
Oh there's an annotation, read the paragraph, go to the annotation,
read this page. Oh there's not like and actually read
it the way that we had intended it to and
how much I was like, ah, this works so well.
Ah my gosh, we nailed it, you know. Uh that
was super satisfying. Uh, super satisfying.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (28:04):
So the first lesson I ever taught as a high
school English teacher, the very first lesson I ever taught,
was a comparison of Anakin Skywalker to Hamlet. The novel
ranges the sith at a large impact on my understanding
of this connection. It really brought things more into light,
kind of painted some key parts of this canvas for me.

(28:25):
Talk both of you, if you would, about what makes
Anakin an ideal tragic hero. M.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
Well, that's that's that's ideal tragic hero.

Speaker 6 (28:37):
I'm well, he's certainly, he's certainly a classic tragic hero
because because he has all of the virtues that we
expect of a hero, but he has the one flaw
that destroys him. Uh with the Greeks. If if I'm

(28:59):
recalling my forty year old university education correctly, I believe
it's called Marcia. It is the tragic, the hero's tragic
flaw that leads to his destruction. So he certainly fills
the bill from the classical drama.

Speaker 4 (29:18):
Sense, Yeah, he fits the bill. And also his flaw
is something that is really easy for anyone to both
understand and relate to and empathize with without much necessary
additional explanation. And in being able to relate to a

(29:41):
character that much, that means that like his downfall, like
you can actually feel and understand in a way that
a character who has a far more complex or esoteric
sort of flaw or motivation you can still feel and understand,
but it may be harder for you to sort of
embody that or to sort of understand and it. But
Anakin is like as sort of pure as it gets,

(30:06):
you know, his his absolute need and desire to you know,
save and protect and not lose the ones that he
cares about to you know, to an infinite end.

Speaker 5 (30:18):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
That's sort of that. That is absolutely why I got
really scared there. At the beginning of the question day,
I thought you were going to ask me to try
to like pull my Hamlet knowledge from high school English back.
I was like, oh my gosh, no, I want to
go to knowledge.

Speaker 6 (30:32):
Listen, I'm going to tell you a secret. I used
to be an actor, and the high point of my
university acting career I played Hamlet. Wow, I can still,
I can still do the speeches. Don't get me started
if you want. If you want to point by point
to comparison, I can do it, but it'll take longer

(30:52):
than you have.

Speaker 5 (30:54):
So I have taught Hamlet for fifteen years, and I
think you and I can maybe the next celebration to
a duet because I know to be or not to be,
probably backwards and forced because I make my students memorize it.
So that's why it's perfect right. And I love what
you brought in too, because a tragic hero with a flaw,
and he doesn't realize his mistakes until it's too late,

(31:16):
and the path has already been set into stone for him,
and it makes us bleed for him all the more,
which you certainly allude to in the annotations. And I
think also the fact that you don't need to be
a Star Wars fan to appreciate the great epic tragedy
of Anakin Skywalker, because the story speaks for itself. And

(31:36):
I think that's the genius of George Lucas, and you
put more context into that through this novel, and I
think that makes it all the more powerful.

Speaker 6 (31:46):
Well, you know that's something that I talk about in
the in the introduction as well, that you know mister
Lucas's reaction is his go ahead? Is that that is
an expression of some who has complete confidence in their story. Yeah,
as a lot if you don't screw up the story, Yeah,

(32:07):
I don't mind, just make it good.

Speaker 5 (32:09):
Yeah, that's what Shakespeare does with his adaptations. But I
had all the adaptations of Shakespeare over the years. Is
the same thing. Keep the story, change the setting, whatever,
Still the same power.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
M H. Good story is a good story.

Speaker 5 (32:23):
Absolutely, absolutely, Well, let's talk about it. Would be I
would be missing a massive opportunity if I didn't ask
you Bill to talk about some of the more notable
annotations in the deluxe edition, as well as some of
the favorites that stood out to you that you really
enjoyed or just had a lot of fun with or
maybe learn a little something about Star Wars through.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Well.

Speaker 6 (32:48):
The only the only one that that jumps out at
me that I really enjoyed is that I had a
little fun with h very minor character, but notable minor
character from the Empire strikes back by inserting him into
the battle of coercion, and and I got to make

(33:08):
a I got to make an I have a bad
feeling about this reference in that annotation, and that it
warmed my heart.

Speaker 4 (33:19):
I particularly enjoy all the annotations where you were very
honest and vulnerable with the reader around the emotional impact
that writing a particular line of dialogue or a way
in which you described, you know, the relationship between Anakin
and Obi Wan, and how you know these two could
never fight, and how you were always honest about that.

(33:41):
But then we're always sure to include a little line
about like I'm glad that I don't have to suffer
alone in this or it hurts, doesn't it, which was
always really fun to get to and I enjoyed. I also,
you have a lot of annotations that build on them,

(34:03):
and you did this really wonderful thing in part because
of some of the motifs and some of the themes
and just some of the style of the book in
which you're obviously building on your Your writing is building
on itself over the course of the story, and so
obviously some of your annotations are building on themselves and
almost making a like you could actually pull out. There's
probably certain threads of annotations we could pull out as

(34:25):
like a that would fill like a page or two themselves,
as almost a mini essay on some aspect. And I
thought you did. I was so excited to not just
see that stuff, because I think it was it gives
the reader a sense of this kind of progression of again,
Matt is right there along with you as are reading
like actually through the story. But also each one of
those was written in such a way that even if

(34:47):
the last one in that grouping or in that thread
was let's say twenty or thirty pages ago, but it
it felt like it was like additive but it hadn't
doesn't force you to like, wait, I gotta jump back
fifty pages that that was really great. But then, of
course there is one particular annotation that is very special.
In fact, it is so special that it is not

(35:10):
an annotation. It is a annotation that leads you to
essentially a short story that has to put into the
back of the book because it was so long that
there was no way to turn it into an annotation.
But it is so good, it is so important. I'm
not even going to tease at people what it is.

(35:31):
You will discover it in the story. All I will
tell you is you can if you want to, though
I absolutely do not recommend it. Do turn to the
back of the book when you get it. You will
see it, and there is an intro for like if
you did that, by the way, here's the you know,
here's the setup. We thought about that. We're like, somebody's
gonna do this, so like exactly, oh, yes, we did

(35:52):
choose your own adventure. There is like a for the
full story go to this page sort of thing, but
that particular annotation and that story is just it's just incredible.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
It's perfect, it's great, ended happily.

Speaker 4 (36:08):
It was happily, and it's also tied to one of
the most enduring parts of the book. For Star Wars
readers and for people who love this book, and if
you love this book and you've read it a bunch,
there is a thing that is in this book and
that comes from this book, that you just get the

(36:30):
joy of this amazing short story. So like all of those,
all of those, but it is it is hard to
pick a favorite. I was asked actually a few weeks
ago to pull a couple of annotations that we might
be able to share in excerpt form and stuff ahead
of the release, as you do with any book. And
I was asked, like, hey, can you just like pull
like five or six that you like, And I was like,

(36:51):
that's gonna be hard. So I was like, all right,
well I'll pull a list and then i'll pare it
down from there, and they are great, sounds good. My
initial lists had fifty seven annotations. They're like, we need
like four, and I was like, well I have fifty seven.
They're like, well, do what you can. So I got
down to ten eventually, and they have ten. So it's
hard to pick a favorite, or it's hard to pick

(37:12):
any that really, but all of those kinds of things,
and as I said earlier, it's so nice that there
are so many different types in here. There are fun jokes,
there are emotional insights met that you make into like,
by the way, here's what I was feeling in like
two thousand, you know in this time when I was writing,
or here's where I was feeling about Star Wars at
this time, or even here's my relationship to this character,

(37:33):
which is a wonderful and important thing to understand. If
someone's writing Obi wan kenobi, it's good to know what
they feel about Obione canoe right. And so there are
so many angles that you can take if you want
to learn about writing or learn different aspects of writing.
There are annotations that are absolutely built as like this
is a style of writing, or this is a writing

(37:53):
technique that is called this, and this is why it matters.
Just the plurality of them is maybe at actually my
favorite thing about them.

Speaker 6 (38:03):
Well, one of my personal idols, Fritz liber famously said,
you can teach somebody. You can teach a man almost
anything if you keep him laughing hard enough he doesn't
notice he's learning.

Speaker 5 (38:21):
That's the only way I still have a teaching job. Yes, yes, yes,
and that emission accomplished. Yet again, I will say I
agree with you, Tom when you get to the part
where you turn to the very back of the book.
I waited because I wanted the full emotional heft, and
I believe Matt that you suggest it might be cooler

(38:43):
or better to wait. I mean, it works either way,
but I feel like I had more of an emotional
heft when I did wait until the end, because it's
kind of a lovely way to kind of punctuate everything.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
I take that, that is my hope.

Speaker 5 (38:57):
Yes, yeah, I think so. I also liked personally whenever
we get into the im the ims or no, I'm sorry,
this is Obi wan Kenobi, this is Anakin Skywalker. I
have reflected on these two in their relationship more than
is healthy, doing coffee with Kenoby for over twelve years

(39:17):
and just being a teacher and incorporating stars into my
curriculum when I can, and it made me think about
their relationship in more impactful ways because and I love
the film. I think Revenge of the Sith is A
is a modern classic. It's probably my favorite because of
the Shakespearean themes. But the novel of course allows us

(39:38):
to die delve more deeply into their psyche because that's
the beauty of the written word, and that I think
is I want to thank you for just as a fan,
for doing that, because I think their relationship is at
the essence the core of this mythology, and it makes it,
it impacts it, and I think in a very profound way.

Speaker 6 (39:59):
Well it it certainly, it certainly kind of illuminates uh
obi Wan's relationship with.

Speaker 5 (40:06):
Luke h Right, yeah, talk about that.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Oh, just just I mean, I I don't have much
to say except except I'm just imagining, imagining.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
The the sense of duty that that obi Wan has
that you can't get from watching the original trilogy because
there Obi WANs not in it enough.

Speaker 6 (40:36):
Right, But obi Wan Obi Wan is the actual hero
of of the the prequel trilogy. You know, he's he's
the young he's the young knight who ends up saving
the day and then he goes on to you know,
raise the next generation of heroes.

Speaker 5 (40:56):
Tom, you have a very reflective look on your I'm
curious what you're thinking. That's the best part is about
the shows. You can see everyone's reactions.

Speaker 4 (41:03):
No, I agree, I agree entirely, and I appreciated too.
This is actually reminding me of one of the annotations.
And again, for the purpose of like keeping the wonder
of discovery, I'm going to be a little oblique about it,
but there is an annotation where Matt is talking about

(41:25):
obi Wan Kenobi a little bit, and he it is
actually one of the annotations where Matt you sort of
make an argument about Star Wars, like about the story
of Star Wars and about this particular story and some
of the decision making that characters are making. And you
make an argument about like, because a character does X,
why happens. If the character did not do X, why

(41:48):
would not happen. It's that sort of construction, and that
is your annotation, which is like a really interesting moment
where you're pausing and giving the reader a real insight
again into your connection and relationship and thought about the
story that you're constructed. And I remember the very first
time reading that in the first draft of your annotations

(42:08):
and being like, I don't think I agree with him.
I think Matt's wrong. And I remember sitting with that,
and I remember sitting with that and wondering like should
I tell him I think he's wrong and be like, no,
that's not really important, but I but I remember grappling
with that, and then I remember that by the time
we got to like and that annotation, actually I don't
really think changed, you know a little bit of proofing,

(42:30):
uh proofreading. I remember that like by the time, like
the third or fourth time that I had read it.
In going through all of them, I was like, Ah,
he might be right now, I think he's right.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
I think he's right. I don't you know.

Speaker 4 (42:47):
I was like, uh, but I and I was. I
enjoyed the journey that that particular annotation and a few
others like it took me on in thinking about this story.
I think you're right now, And the curious once I
get to start talking to folks who've read it and
talk to them about it, do you think he's right?

Speaker 1 (43:06):
You know, like, do you think he's right?

Speaker 7 (43:08):
Well?

Speaker 6 (43:08):
You know what I keep trying to tell people is
I'm I'm I'm just a writer. I don't my opinion
doesn't count for anything else.

Speaker 4 (43:17):
But it's a It is a fun, compelling argument, and
I I do think you are correct, or at least
I think you are. I think your argument is correct
for the most part. Yes, or at least it's in
the same vein of like you're arguing about whether something

(43:40):
else might have been harder, easier, and I do agree
it would have made a thing harder motivated something more difficult,
and whether or not is sort of impossible. Is I
think that sort of the real I'll get there, but
I do think you're right, so I will be I
will be looking forward to seeing like other feedback people
have about that particular annotation, and.

Speaker 5 (44:03):
That in the industry is what we call a hook.
Ladies and gentlemen, I.

Speaker 4 (44:06):
Apologize again for being oblique, but trust me, you will
appreciate my obliqueness when you get to that scene in
the book and get to read that annotation kind of
fresh and have it jump out at you in the
way that it jumped out at me.

Speaker 5 (44:18):
If it is what I think you're talking about, it
could very well be a topic for a future show.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
Listening to Coffee with Knoby, you are with Danzi the
podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 6 (44:29):
This is.

Speaker 5 (44:39):
Well, gentlemen, I can thank you both enough again. The
book Star Wars Revenge of the Fifth Episode three Deluxe
Edition is available on October fourteenth. A beautiful brand new
book case beneath it. The book itself, just the actual
hardback is a work of part in and of itself.

(45:01):
There's a couple of beautiful illustrations. It's it's just a
gorgeous book worthy of display, certainly reading and pouring over. Gentlemen, again,
thank you so much. Matthew, an absolute pleasure to have
you on the show. Uh, what can you share about
what you have coming down the pipe in the future.

Speaker 6 (45:21):
Oh, I'm actually I've just just been able to really
get started working again and I have a I have
a project underway that but I don't want to talk
too much about it this week.

Speaker 5 (45:36):
Certainly, Well we look forward to that with great anticipation.
But yes, I and Tom you're you, You've got something
exciting going on in the world of the convention circuit.

Speaker 4 (45:50):
Yeah, well we got you know, we're recording this on
uh the seventh. So I've got New York Comic Con
coming up this week where I will be there. Actually
Matt will be making an appearance. We're going to get
to spend a little time together, and we will actually
have the book on sale a few days early for
folks get to grab it and meet Matt and we're

(46:12):
gonna have a good time. And I will probably walk
through the line and be like, did you read that
innotation yet? Do you want to argue about we're talking
about it?

Speaker 1 (46:20):
But we will.

Speaker 4 (46:21):
We will have a good time. So, yeah, we have
New York Comic Cons coming up, and then a whole
bunch of a whole bunch more coming in the future.
You know the books. The books never stop, thankfully.

Speaker 5 (46:34):
And we are definitely very happy about that. For all
things Star Wars news, reviews, videos, and more, head to
our home base, Coffee with Kenoby dot com. Don't forget
to join the CWK Cafe on Facebook at Coffee with
Knoby dot com slash community, our family friendly, spoiler free
group for all your Star Wars thoughts, comments and conversation.

(46:55):
This podcast is possible thanks to the incredible support of
the CWK Alliance. I want to help keep the show brewing.
For as little as one dollar a month, you can
join the CWK Alliance and get access to CWK pour Over,
our exclusive weekly audio and video podcast. Learn more at
Coffeewithcanobe dot com slash CWK Alliance and know this ten

(47:19):
percent of your monthly contributions goes directly to the Saint
Jude Children's Hospital. Want to connect You can email me
at Dan z at coffeewthkenobe dot com, follow me on
x at mister z Air, mr Zehr, Instagram, threads at
Dan's Air, CWK and Blue Sky. I'm also on LinkedIn.
You can follow coffee with Kenobi across social media on x, Instagram, threads, Pinterest,

(47:43):
and blue Sky, and give us a like on Facebook
at Facebook dot com, slash coffee with Kenobi, and if
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can email us feedback at coffeewith Kenobi dot com. Be
sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel where you're fined
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(48:04):
review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Julia helps
more Star Wars fans find our little corner of the galaxy.
Do you need a speaker for your next event? Visit
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(48:26):
shop and show your support in style.

Speaker 7 (48:29):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
or Lucasfilm Limited. It is intended for entertainment and informational
purposes only. The official Star Wars website can be found
at www dot star Wars dot com. Star Wars all names, sounds,
and any other Star Wars related items are registered trademarks
and or copyrights of Disney and their respective trademark and
copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the

(48:50):
intellectual property of Coffee with Kenobi. Unless otherwise indicated.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
This is the podcast you're looking forward.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
There's no one here.

Speaker 5 (48:59):
Of five

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