November 8, 2025 • 57 mins
In a world in crisis, we’re not listening to each other, not listening to the larger world in which we live. Yet listening is key to solving the very crises humanity faces.
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REGISTER at www.ConsciousSHIFTShow.com
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Julie Ann explores with her ConsciousSHIFT Show guest Dr. Mike Edwards, global climate change adviser, author of Soundscapes of Life, & world-class didgeridoo player, how listening to the "soundscapes" of life can help us restore peace in a turbulent world.
Soundscapes encompass the auditory frequencies of the human and more-than-human natural worlds that surround us, influence us, and impact us internally and externally.
Mike is Chief Listening Officer (CLO) at Sound Matters and co-founder of Innerdigenous, a movement dedicated to helping people reconnect with themselves and nature for personal and planetary healing. He holds a PhD in the links between climate change and human security.
Mike has over 25 years’ experience as a sustainability consultant and climate change advisor. He was appointed global Climate Change Advisor to The Elders Foundation, where he provided expert advice to the likes of UN SEC GENERAL Kofi Annan and President Jimmy Carter.
His career began with research on climate change in the Southwest Pacific. His early work was cited by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and explored "ecocolonialism," or how powerful interests manipulate climate discourse. He lived in Australia for 11 years while he completed his PhD, where he also learned how to play the didgeridoo - a hollow tube of eucalyptus that produces mesmerizing earthy tones and natural rhythms. Mike is also a musician and is considered one of the world’s most accomplished didgeridoo players having performed at festivals around the world and released four CDs to international acclaim.
Since completing his PhD, Mike has dedicated himself to music and teaching. Over the past 17 years, he also has roamed the world playing didgeridoo and teaching people why it is crucial to love nature.
Now lives & teaches in the UK.
His new book, ‘Soundscapes of Life’, which explores a new theory and practice of listening - Integral Listening (IL) - is due for publication in 2025.
Join Julie Ann and Mike to discover how sound shapes our understanding of place and presence, and how deep listening to each other and the world around us just might save the very world we live in.
>>> LISTEN NOW! @ www.ConsciousSHIFTNow.com
REGISTER at www.ConsciousSHIFTShow.com
(IT'S FREE)
[Receive Show Details + Access to GIFT > Genius Guide + Audio]
Julie Ann explores with her ConsciousSHIFT Show guest Dr. Mike Edwards, global climate change adviser, author of Soundscapes of Life, & world-class didgeridoo player, how listening to the "soundscapes" of life can help us restore peace in a turbulent world.
Soundscapes encompass the auditory frequencies of the human and more-than-human natural worlds that surround us, influence us, and impact us internally and externally.
Mike is Chief Listening Officer (CLO) at Sound Matters and co-founder of Innerdigenous, a movement dedicated to helping people reconnect with themselves and nature for personal and planetary healing. He holds a PhD in the links between climate change and human security.
Mike has over 25 years’ experience as a sustainability consultant and climate change advisor. He was appointed global Climate Change Advisor to The Elders Foundation, where he provided expert advice to the likes of UN SEC GENERAL Kofi Annan and President Jimmy Carter.
His career began with research on climate change in the Southwest Pacific. His early work was cited by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and explored "ecocolonialism," or how powerful interests manipulate climate discourse. He lived in Australia for 11 years while he completed his PhD, where he also learned how to play the didgeridoo - a hollow tube of eucalyptus that produces mesmerizing earthy tones and natural rhythms. Mike is also a musician and is considered one of the world’s most accomplished didgeridoo players having performed at festivals around the world and released four CDs to international acclaim.
Since completing his PhD, Mike has dedicated himself to music and teaching. Over the past 17 years, he also has roamed the world playing didgeridoo and teaching people why it is crucial to love nature.
Now lives & teaches in the UK.
His new book, ‘Soundscapes of Life’, which explores a new theory and practice of listening - Integral Listening (IL) - is due for publication in 2025.
Join Julie Ann and Mike to discover how sound shapes our understanding of place and presence, and how deep listening to each other and the world around us just might save the very world we live in.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Conscious Shift with Julianne Turner brings insights from leading voices
and visionaries across the globe to guide and inspire you
to create your own conscious shift into your true power
and singular greatness. Through her expertise, author, speaker, and social innovator,
Julianne Turner, a world authority on the creative process, guides
you to discover how to consciously create the life, work,
(00:25):
and world you most desire. And now here's your Conscious
Shift host Julianne Turner.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome everyone, This is julian Turner. Was so glad that
you're joining us for the Conscious Shift Show today and
if you're new to the show, I just want to
again celebrate your joining us and invite you to visit
us at Conscious shiftshow dot com where you'll find a
unique gift that I have for you, a conversation between
(00:58):
myself and godin that talks about how you can share
your unique genius with the world. So you can go
to conscious siss show dot com and you'll also be
added to our mailing list and we'll keep you a
prize of each show. Today we have a very special show.
I think you know if you've listened and I say
(01:20):
that every time, but I really do feel this is
a special show and we're going to be talking about
the soundscapes of life. And what I mean by that
is that in a world in crisis, we're really not
listening to each other, and we're really not listening to
the living world around us, and that is actually key
(01:44):
to resolving the crises that we find ourselves in. And today,
my special guest is doctor Mike Edwards, who is chief
listening officer at Sound Matters and also the co founder
of Innerdigenous, so we're going to talk about both of
those entities. Mike holds a PhD and he studies the
(02:11):
links between climate change and human security, and he's also
the author of a new book called Soundscapes of Life,
which is coming out this year. Mike, I'm so excited
to have you here. I know you've advised the Elders
Foundation and also leaders like Secretary General Kofianon and President
(02:34):
Jimmy Carter. You have a global view on this and
a personal view on this. I know that also from
our first meeting that you are a world class musician
as well, which speaks to the way that you know
about sound and listening you're one of the top digitidoo
players in the world where you learned that from your
(02:56):
time studying climate and getting your PhD in Australia, and
so want to explore your background, want to explore your worldview,
and want to explore your guidance and insights for us.
At this time. You mentioned that the impact that we
have such an impact of our soundscape in understanding the
(03:18):
larger environment and the world crisis with based talk to
us a little bit about your work in that area
and start us off with a bit of a bit
of context.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Right, Well, thanks Julian, and thanks for having me on
the show, and thanks for that lovely biographical or introduction.
I was actually thinking, God, have I done some of
those things? So if you ever need to get in
front of an interview panel on my behalf, that would
be great.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I'd love no.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Thank you so much, and yeah, it's a real pleasure
to be here, as you say, at a time of crisis,
you know, and I think that that's very much what
my work's about, exploring the causes and consequences of the
crisis we face, and primarily environmental in my case, and
(04:14):
as a result of exploring ways of addressing issues such
as climate change by diversity loss. That I became fascinated
by the idea of sensing these crises, and by that
I mean how we actually relate to and with them.
And obviously we live in a very visual world, you know,
(04:38):
you only have to think about social media. The way
we engage with the world is primarily through the sense
of sight if we are not visually impaired.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
So that I.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Became fascinated by the fact that maybe there are rather
sense modalities available to us for engaging with issues. And
sound became my primary sort of focus because, as you said,
I'm a digeridoo player, and that's I learned that skill
(05:12):
through listening to players in Australia, both traditional and contemporary.
And the amazing thing about did reydo is you can't
watch it being played because there's nothing to watch, you know,
there's no you can't see what the fingers are doing
on the keys, and so the only way you can
(05:34):
learn is through deep listening. And it was through that
process of trying to learn that I really started to
use my ears. I was I never trained as a
musician as a kid. In fact, I really struggled with
music partly because the way it was taught, you know,
you listen to a piece of you know, a Beethoven
(05:55):
symphony and it's like, well, tell us what's being played
and replicate it, and it's like, well, I actually don't
have the ability. So it was quite lovely to sort
of meet an instrument which didn't require and I say
this advisedly, didn't require technical proficiency to begin with. What
(06:18):
it required was, as I say that, deep listening. And importantly,
because the did redoo is very much a storytelling instrument,
you were encouraged in the learning process to listen to
your soundscape and try and replicate what you were hearing.
So what you might be hearing the waves on the
(06:41):
beach or water in a river, cooker burs, brolgas, different animals,
the movement. So it's an amazing instrument in terms of
connecting you to the environment. And it was through that
process that I thought, actually, this, this is a novel
(07:02):
way of trying to get people to engage with issues
like climate change, because, as we know, facts aren't going
to change our hearts or to extent they might our minds.
But you know, you can look at a graph of
CO two emissions over time, and you don't look at
that and think, oh no, oh no, I've got to
(07:22):
change my behavior, you know. It just it doesn't work
like that. You can be shocked, but it's not generally,
it doesn't have that profound impact. And that's what I
was looking for or hearing for, you know, a way
of profoundly engaging. So that's really why I became fascinated
(07:43):
by the soundscape and the stories the soundscape tells.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And sound is profound in that it's an energetic it's
a frequency that we can feel. We feel it in
addition to hearing it, and so it touches us deeply.
And the rhythms, it's fascinating to me. The way that
(08:09):
you described how you were taught to mirror the natural
world when you learned the didgeridoo. That's beautiful. That's quite beautiful.
And you also talk about, you know, our ancestors for
sixty thousand years, they had to do that to be
able to survive and thrive. And we've really lost touch
(08:31):
with that kinship with what you call the more than
human world, right.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, And there are two points, very important points there
that you make. That another reason I find sounds so
fascinating is exactly that, that you can have a hearing
impairment but you can still feel sound is still touching you.
And I think of amazing musicians I've come across, and
(09:00):
I know of even and Glenny the percussionist who is
profoundly deaf but senses and fields through her body the rhythm.
So I think that's another beautiful thing, the democracy of
sound in a sense, and how we all have access
to it in different ways. And then to come to
(09:23):
your other point.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
The.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Sorry, you'll have to remind me of your other point
you about.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
About our ancestors.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yes, yes, sorry, I've got a sidetracked by my own explanation.
But yes, if you think in the past survival depended
much more in many respects on hearing than it did sing.
I mean, if we were living in the savannah or
in dense forests, well sight wasn't as useful as hearing.
(10:00):
So if a saber toothed tiger or a big fierce
animal was wandering through you know, the grass, you couldn't
see it, so you'd be you'd be listening out for it.
So yeah, you could argue that hearing or listening has
been key to our survival up until recently and at
a time of profound crises, it seems relevant that we
(10:26):
relearn revisit that skill, the art of listening. And if
you just literally I mean I use you know, I say,
look around. But if you think about what's going on
in the world at the moment, it's a listening crisis.
There's lots of people speaking, but there's not a lot
(10:46):
of people truly listening, or if they are, they're listening
to what they want to hear, not what is actually
being spoken or said, or the processes that are shaping
the planet. And you know, the more the more I
think about it, the more I think listening is absolutely
key to our survival moving forward, and importantly finding the
(11:13):
sort of the ability to listen to things we don't
want to hear, and that's really important. Frequently people are like,
I don't want to hear that, and so you shape
your own, your own sort of experiences of the world.
But actually sometimes you do have to listen to the unpleasantries.
You know, you're seeing in the US at the moment,
(11:35):
we're seeing well, we're seeing it all around the world,
that there are these dominant voices that are starting to
shape the world. Now if people truly listened to what
these voices were saying, unless they had something seriously wrong
with them. They would be saying, actually, this is this
is dangerous, this is scary. But we're not we're not
(12:00):
not truly listening. We're hearing. We're hearing things that, oh, yeah,
you're right, that person who's coming into my country they
are taking my job. Well, it's ridiculous. You're just believing
a narrative through a dominant voice. So the ability to
actually listen and to interrogate what you're hearing is absolutely
(12:21):
key to solving a lot of the problems we face.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Absolutely. Part of the work that I was doing when
we met Mike was around dialogue. And that's not debate.
It's not trying to convince, persuade, overwhelm another person. But
it really is about an exchange of understanding. And I
(12:47):
would bring groups of people together where you would literally have,
you know, an immigrant to the US and a conservative
politician in the same circle, and each had an equal voice,
and by telling those stories, the entire group would then
(13:08):
gain more of a three hundred and sixty degree view
of the issue and understand the personal stories and the
reasons behind you know, why people took actions, and so
it's essential. It's an essential part I think of learning
to listen to one another, that it's not just listening
(13:29):
to express ourselves, but listening to understand no.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And that's something I delve into in the book quite deeply,
and I've sort of come up with this concept of
integral listening, which is very much about the fact that
you have an exterior soundscape and an interior soundscape, so
you can listen outward lead to something that's being said
(13:57):
or something you know, a process's creating a sound, but
the only way you engage and interpret it that is
through your internal dialogue. So whatever views and values you
hold will dictate what you hear. And you know, one
of the things I argue again in the book is
(14:18):
that actually learning to listen to the story in the
sound and not what you you know, the baggage you
bring to that is incredibly difficult. And you know, I
try it myself a lot. I'll I'll hear a political
view and I will be outraged and go my normal
(14:40):
angry way and sort of this is awful, and then
it's like, actually take a breath and actually listen to
that voice and try and try and I mean in
a sense it's I mean, it's a mindfulness practice in
a way, But in a sense it's not because you're
not you are trying to interrogate your feelings. You're not
(15:00):
trying to be detached from it. You're actively trying to say, right,
why am I feeling that way? And importantly, what I've
found is sometimes when you find yourself resonating with something
that you know deep down is wrong or incorrect, and
it's like, well, why is it I'm resonating with that?
(15:23):
And that's the whole thing, and we can come onto
that in a but I've become very I've become fascinated
by this idea of resonance as an approach. And we
talked a bit before in our personal discussion that in
a sense, it's so much it has so much more
depth than just this word connection. You know, I feel
connected to, But the whole resonance thing raises so much
(15:48):
more like why do I resonate with certain things? And
through that process of listening and thinking what's resonating there,
you kind of get a profound understanding your own thought
processes and things that might be going on subconsciously. And
this I think is happening more and more and problematically
(16:10):
is that clearly there are a lot of problems that
these populist leaders are. They're appealing to people, but that's
because a lot of these people are resonating with certain
concerns that and the way the world's going, but they've
never been able to voice that, because that's another thing.
(16:31):
It's like, you can't voice those concerns. I mean, we're
all being censored in every way, So those voices in
the mind get pushed down, and then all of a
sudden they're allowed to come out in these ridiculous shows
of racism, bigotry, whatever it might be. Whereas had they
(16:51):
been addressed, or had people been able to voice them
in circles like you said, and look, you know, say
I'm struggling with this view, then it doesn't have to
become such a horrible you know, or it doesn't have
to lead to such horrible outcomes. So I think that
understanding resonance, being able to listen to both your external
(17:16):
soundscape and your internal soundscape, really allows you to start
to to understand what is shaping beliefs and values. And
I think that's so key at the moment.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It is with political divisiveness. And also I'd be interested
to hear you know, your perspective on how that affects
you know, climate change, biodiversity, those areas. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Well, I mean, as you know, I've worked on climate
change for so many years, and I've worked at it
from a sort of research sort of I say scientific.
I've never been a scientist, but I did explore the science, impacts,
and policy aspects of climate change in Australia. And one
(18:14):
thing I found, again which was so profound, is that
there was a dominant voice in all in the discourse. Now,
now we've got to this point that you either believe
in climate change.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Or you don't.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
You're either a believer or a denier, and it's like,
oh God, can't we be a bit more nuanced? And
I actually, I mean I coined the phrase ecocolonialism in
the Pacific because what I was seeing there is there
was a dominant voice around climate change which was constructed
(18:49):
by the industrialized, powerful countries. That basically meant that the poorer,
vulnerable countries became poorer and more vulnerable because they were
being told that they had no control over this threat. Obviously,
those with the power to change were the big polluters.
(19:11):
And I noticed in some of my research, particularly in
some of the smaller Pacific islands, that this narrative was
actually leading to disempowerment. And understandably, if you're being told
that your island's going to disappear in fifty years time,
you're going to be a little concerned. There'd be something
wrong with you if you weren't. So a lot of
(19:33):
indigenous adaptation strategies to weather related problems which had shaped
the island's history, because I've always been vulnerable to climate
weather related threats, but those were almost being lost and
agency was being given to the big polluters. And so
(19:56):
the whole what I was seeing there was the people
were listening more to those who were perpetuate or perpetrating
perpetuate the threat of climate change. So power in both
ways in terms of the impacts, in terms of who
(20:18):
had control say over mitigation strategies were being that power
was being handed always to those with power, and so
it was quite difficult because I kind of got to
a point where I was saying, look, ignore the threat
of climate change, but I didn't mean that. If you
see what I didn't mean, like, just don't take it seriously,
(20:42):
but try and construct the threat on your terms and
then take the big polluters apart, you know, then go
to the cop meetings and everything. But that was met
it was quite interesting. It was met with quite a
lot of negativity, Like people didn't quite understand that I
(21:07):
wasn't denying the threat at all, but I was saying,
you've got to be careful that you don't give your
agency and power every time to those who are causing
the problem. So that came down again much more to
listening to listening to that voice, the voice of the island,
(21:29):
the voice of people who had adapted to those as
I say, whether in climate related events throughout history. Because
that was another thing. You know, specialists were flying into
these countries to tell them how to adapt to these problems.
And again, even at that level of local adaptation strategies,
(21:50):
power was being given to this sort of epistemic community
of international specialists. So all the power, that's all I was.
All the power was being handed to those who had
the power. And it's a wonderful way to be able
to say, look, unless we take action, you're going to disappear.
(22:10):
You know, your island's gone. So of course you then
have to engage in these international processes where again you're
a small player. So I was fascinated by that those
power plays, and I think I hope that my work now,
which is about encouraging people to listen to the sounds
(22:35):
of climate change, to listen to the impacts, but also
importantly listen to the dialogue, the discourses, the dominant discourses
of climate change, and start to see where you as
an individual, you as a vulnerable individual, can actually have power.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And would it be fair to say not only power
and choice, but also compassion where you're actually listening to,
as you say that, the soundscapes of nature and noticing
(23:18):
the nuances that we rarely tune into as we go
about our busy pedestrian days. And and I know that
you've done even some recordings where you bring in the
sounds of nature. Talk just a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yes, So this part of our work has been a
number of projects. We've done a big project on soundscape
restoration in Spain, we're currently doing one at Broughton Sanctuary
in Yorkshire. And a lot of that in a way
started with monitoring. Soundscape monitoring and by that I mean,
(24:01):
you know, putting up passive recorders recording sounds over particular
temporal spatial scales. But what we found there was that
in a sense we were just recording well, we were
just recording sounds. It was just another data collection exercise
(24:25):
and we were like, actually, is this really going to
have the impact we want? So we started to sort
of use a more arts based approach. Dare I say it?
You know, we brought a bit of creative license to it.
And one project in particular was actually with a great
friend of mine, Adam Hunt, who I've known since I
(24:46):
was four years old, and he was putting on a
garden for the Chelsea Flower Show, a rewilding Britain garden,
and the idea was to show how rewilding could change
the landscape. Through discussions with Adam, we were like, well,
actually one of the profound changes will be the soundscape.
(25:07):
And the amazing thing about beaver habitats is they look
a bloody mess generally, they really do. It's like what
the hell's going on here?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
So you look at it and you think, well, you know, wow,
do we really want that? But then you listen to
the soundscape and it's utterly beautiful. So we designed for
the garden a soundscape to show what would happen if
(25:38):
you did introduce beaver back into the British landscape, the
way the soundscape could change. So we with my colleague
Harry Code, who's a bit of a wizard with sound design.
He created this beautiful soundscape which was like the before
and after, and it's amazing the number of people who
(26:01):
commented on that. But the whole thing there was that
it wasn't just a monitoring a collection of sounds. It
was then bringing as I say, that creativity into then
sound designing something which people could listen to and then
have that like a harm moment. Because I'm very conscious
(26:23):
that we tend to be just monitoring more data, Like
we collect all this data to tell us well, actually, yeah,
the world is heading towards complete and utter destruction. You know,
do we need more data to tell us that what
we're doing is having a profound impact on the planet.
(26:44):
Of course, we need data to show that when we're
actually taking action to address the problems, you know, we
can show that, Yeah, that's beneficial. But I think we've
got to be careful that we don't just it's always
collect data. At some point you need to use that
hopefully to as I say, to create pieces, soundscape, music,
(27:07):
whatever it might be, which will lead to behavioral change.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
That's the key, isn't it. It's uh, it's one thing,
as you said earlier, to have the graph where you see,
you know, the increase in in uh disasters or climate
change impacts. And yet as humans, what you know, we
can have a reaction of what does that mean for me?
(27:34):
What what can I do? Perhaps hopefully, but when you
hear the contrast between the soundscapes and what's possible when
we actively hold debate robust, diverse habitats, then uh, the
sound itself, as we said, it can touch touch us
(27:57):
in a human way.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Well massively. And again this project in Spain has been
fascinating because where we're working in southern Spain, there's a
huge amount of work going on on landscape regeneration. Now,
the interesting thing is that process doesn't visually is often
(28:19):
not that stimulating. So you might go to an olive
or alm and grove which has been let to go
a little more wild, so some beautiful grasses, aromatic herbs
and that, and okay, it looks better than an industrially
farmed you know, which is literally just bare soil and
(28:42):
these trees, but it doesn't necessarily make you think, oh,
this is amazing. But again, when you hear the difference
between the soundscape of the industrial industrially farmed arm and
olive groves compared to those that are being regenerated, it's,
you know, it's just this beautiful sort of cacophony. That's
(29:06):
the right word, but it is. It's just it's it's amazing,
you know. And I think that's what we've realized that
frequently the soundscape, and Bernie Krause says this, you know,
it tells a really profound story of change, and I
think that's the thing there. Of course, there's the more
(29:28):
analytical side of that, and then there's the more creative
arts based and I think that's where we probably because
we we don't necessarily have the technical ability to do
a proper sort of soundscape bioacoustic soundscape, acoustic ecology analysis.
(29:50):
But and that's the beauty, you know, you can get
so many different people involved in this, and you can
use those sounds in different ways. So I think I
think that's why I I've just become so fascinated with
and buy it and It all comes back to those
first early days of listening to the landscape to try
(30:10):
and learn how to play a didgerido.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
So that's that's such a beautiful origin story in a way,
and we want to take just a quick break here
and then we're going to come back and talk about
uh introdigenous fascinating concept and now organization that you've that
you've launched, and also talk about your new book, Soundscapes
(30:35):
of Life. Well, this is Julianne Turner will be right
back with doctor Mike Edwards Shift.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
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(32:19):
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action guide and audios to guide you step by step
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Speaker 2 (34:03):
This is Julianne Turner. We're glad you're joining again to
our show Conscious Shift, and we are here today talking
with doctor Mike Edwards, who is Chief Listening US, Chief
Listening Officer at Sound Matters and co founder of Indigenous. Mike,
(34:23):
I want to talk a little bit about that that
term that you have coined and what the entity of
indigenous is.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah, that's it's an interesting it's an interesting question, because
I still struggle a little bit with the with the name.
I don't want to be perceived as appropriating anything which
isn't mine to sort of engage with. But the whole
(34:54):
idea of Indigenous is that there is we all have
a connect to place, and that connection needn't be because
we've been there for forty fifty thousand years. It may
be because we just feel that profound, you know, we're
resonating with a landscape. And that was the idea really
(35:17):
of Indigenous is that unless we can feel that from
an interior perspective, that connection, a lot of what we're
trying to do to address environmental issues simply won't work
because they've just become scientific and technical challenges, which largely
it's become, you know, climate change hasn't really got much
(35:38):
of a spiritual aspect. It's more about have we got
the technical ability to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? And Indigenous
was a sort of a realization that unless we've become
deeply connected to the more than human and I like
the phrase more than human, I borrow it from David Abram,
(36:02):
philosopher and environmental thinker who wrote the beautiful book The
Spell of the sensuous. But it's this idea that unless
we can have that profound and I say connection, I
now think it's resonance with the other, with what we
are part and parcel of, But we continue to separate
(36:25):
ourselves from then all our science and technology just I
just don't think it's going to address the fundamental crisis
that we face. And I've always felt this that it's
a spiritual crisis, it's not a technical challenge. And as
(36:46):
I say, Indigenous is an attempt to bring that to
the fore, to run retreats, to get people to understand that,
to know what it is to resonate with a landscape.
An interesting I was talking to Adam, who I mentioned
Chelsea Flower Show fame about this just earlier this week
(37:11):
my mother's funeral, and we were talking about what it
means to be connected. And he has lived in other
parts of the world and the other parts of the country,
and I have lived away in Australia and I love
I love Australia. I love the Australian landscape. I mean
(37:32):
I have a profound relationship with it. Yet I never
felt the same connection to the land as I do
to where I was born. It's something that I mean, honestly,
if you saw where I live now, it's just they're
(37:53):
building over everything. I mean, it's just a building site.
And yet I still have this deep resonance with the
earth here and I cannot explain it. And that's what
Indigenous is trying to explore and trying to help people
to have that relationship, because it's the relationship that's going
(38:15):
to save us. It really is, because once you have
that connection, you have generally an empathy towards it. You
don't want to see it destroyed. If you don't have that,
then you can develop it. You can become, you know,
a speculative developer. You just want to build on it.
You just want to make money. But you wouldn't do
(38:37):
that if that held childhood memories, unless you've got some
psychopathic problem, which a lot of these people have, but
that's a different, different podcast. You know, if you have
that deep resonance, you can't you can't let these landscapes go.
(38:57):
They are part and parcel of who and what you
are are as a spiritual being. But we're almost it's
so funny and environmental sort of discourse. Now it's all
about net zero targets. It's all about adaptation policies, climate finance.
(39:17):
But very few people are talking about love. Very few
people are talking about that. You know, as I say,
those resonant relationships, and that's what we need to be
talking about because otherwise we lose it and we lose
it and again it becomes a graph, it becomes data
points of what's being lost. But what does that mean?
(39:39):
Like here, for example, the dawn chorus. When I was
a kid, I used to wake up, you know, the
east began to glow and my Avian friends would start
their you know, their chatter and it was just utterly beautiful.
Now in my lifetime that's changed profoundly. You don't have
that dawn chorus and one particular species, so the cuckoo,
(40:03):
which used to be that it used to be the
sign that spring was arriving. You know, these travelers who
had flown from Africa to southern England and you would
wake up and you'd hear the cuckoo and it's like
spring is here. You very rarely in this part of
the UK, now do you hear one? Now for my
(40:26):
kids that might not be an issue because they don't
have memories of what was there before. But for me,
I do. But what worries me more is that if
my kids don't have those memories, then something else is
going to replace that. And this is what we're saying,
virtual world, social media, it's replacing that loss. There's still
(40:47):
the kids still want that profound connection, but they're looking
at it or for it in these you know, in phones,
in computers, virtual worlds, and that terrifies me because that
replace the more than human, that natural element, and that
scares me.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
And it really does speak to our lack of true connection.
It's there's a there's a artificial connection in media, games
and those kinds of things, but it's not a human
or a connection with nature. And so I do agree
(41:30):
with you. It is a spiritual question and crisis. And
I know that al Gore talks about it as a
as a moral crisis. H do we believe that we're
one with one another and one with this natural world
as part of a dynamic living system where we're uh
(41:54):
integrally intertwined and dependent on one another and also can nurture
one another to to to to grow and to have
more life, which is really what life is about. More
life and or you know, will we choose to to
(42:16):
believe in separateness that leads to that divisiveness that we're seeing,
and to two divorce ourselves when caring about the environment
as if we can, right? I know that. I interviewed
Jared Diamond, who wrote Guns, Journalists and Steel and also
(42:40):
wrote a book called Collapse, How societies choose to fail
or succeed And and the most striking thing that is
important for all of us to hear I think is
he says, you know, even in a harsh environment, collapse
isn't inevitable, but it depends on society's choice. We have
(43:02):
the power that the the aid us he to choose
each one of us. Right, will we stand up for
the climate? Uh? You know? Will we stand up for
one another? Or not? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Yeah? And I mean I pleased you mentioned Jared Dunn's
work because he was very influential in my early thinking
and particularly Collapsed. And I think he wrote I think
it was the third Chimpanzee or anyway, but his Yeah,
his work amazing and it's absolutely true. And I think
this is the problem. We're starting to believe that somehow
(43:42):
technology can replace those aspects of connection and resonance. But
the more we the more we delve into it. And
this it does make me laugh, not in a haha way,
but the fact that there's so much research now coming
out that nature is good for us, Like, oh, thanks
for telling me. I'm pleased you've done ten years of
(44:04):
research to tell me something. You know, it's like, for
goodness' sake. I think we know that, we know it intuitively,
but now we need we need science to tell us
that a connection to nature is important for our well being.
But that's that's just like testament to where we are,
(44:25):
you know, where we've got to that we can even
question the fact that we need that. It's it's utter madness.
And somehow we can replace that with these virtual worlds
and all this tech which doesn't it doesn't improve Sorry,
that's not correct. I should say it improves certain aspects
of our lives, but it doesn't replace. You know, that
(44:49):
feeling when you get up, you look at a beautiful scene,
or you hear a beautiful soundscape, you walk through a
forest and you just get that ah, that feeling. Well,
that feeling is about being human in a more than
human world. It's that feeling is what connection and resonance
means it doesn't need a huge amount of analysis. Like
(45:12):
everyone who spends time in nature, providing it's not you know,
in a hurricane or in but in a relatively calm
sort of environmental situation, derives benefits and they will talk
of that. And interestingly, if that weren't the case, then
why do people choose to go on holiday to places
(45:36):
which are lovely? Why do they not choose to go
to industrial wastelands? Why do they not choose to go?
And I mean some people do. Some of these tourist
results are industrial, but that's another story. But you know,
generally people seek out beautiful places and it's like soundscapes, soundscape,
all of this like a beautiful soundscape. It's healing, it's
(46:00):
being shown to be healing. So I don't know, I
think what we're we're discussing is actually so simple, yet
it's become so profound and so urgent, and that I
suppose that brings me probably onto the book. It's you
know it, That book is my sort of wake up
(46:23):
call to both myself and hopefully my readers. And the
important thing is the book. The book is not for specialists,
soundscape specialists, because they know they'll know it all. They'll
read it and they'll be like, well, I know this,
But what it is aimed to do is to bring
the soundscape to those who may not have considered it,
(46:48):
and especially those searching for different ways to engage with
environmental issues, different ways to interrogate their thought processes, the
whole idea of well being. So it's kind of a
general it's a general introduction and hopefully presenting certain methods
(47:09):
and methodologies, and it starts and ends with the discussion
of playing the didgerido and how that simple process, you know,
blowing down a hollow piece of wood circular breathing has
shaped my entire environmental philosophy. So I yeah, I hope
(47:32):
the book. I want it to be read. It's so
funny when I was doing my PhD, and also my
dad used to say, you've got to make sure that
the reader sort of engages with what you write on
your terms, you know, and that I don't mean that
in an arrogant way, but I want it to be
(47:52):
read for how it was written, as I say, a
general introduction, a celebration of the soundscape, a sort of
an attempt to bring the soundscape into climate change. Environmental
discourse as hopefully a new way of engaging with some
(48:12):
of these big scary issues.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Yes, so the book is Soundscapes of Life, and Mike
tell us when and how we can can receive that book.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Yes, so, it's Soundscapes of Life, Deep Listening to the
world around us. It's published by Routledge, which is an
academic publisher. It's available worldwide, and maybe excuse me, it's
pre order is November seventeenth and publication date is the
(48:50):
eighth of December. And if you just just type in
Soundscapes of Life, Deep Listening, you hopefully will find it
in a Boo shop near you.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Fantastic. I can't wait for that to be out in
the world. And one of the things that touched my
heart is that you talk about the hearth as a
meeting place of connection, of resonance, and you have forwards
(49:25):
that touch me here heart, Earth and art. We've talked
a bit about each one of those. Can you give
us just a little sketch of how those work in
your work?
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Well, it's very interesting. Literally, just before I was joined
the podcast, I was speaking to a colleague, Christopher bad
whose lecturer at Queen's University in entrepreneurship, and we're actually
so we're developing retreats in which will be very much
(50:02):
their resonance retreats, and the idea is that they occur
around the hearth, and so it's both a physical space
and a sort of I suppose its spiritual space as well,
not that those two need to be separate, but the
idea is that we will run these retreats. They will
(50:23):
start in Morocco and hopefully hopefully will go worldwide. But
it's very much about here, heart Earth art, so we hear,
we listen to one one another. It's arts based, so
it's about the role of creativity and finding solutions to
(50:44):
crisis and exploring the process of resonance Earth, the fact
that that's what it's all about. And then heart. Again,
this idea of trying not to make it to much
of an analytical process, that this is very much about feeling, sensing,
(51:06):
and that's what the resonance retreats will be about, is
how do you design for resonance because it's not guaranteed.
You know, you can go to Morocco, which is utterly beautiful,
many parts of it are very beautiful, and where we'll
be running the retreats will be, but there's no guarantee
(51:27):
you'll resonate with that landscape or what's being discussed, what
you're eating, what you're hearing, what you're touching. And so
the whole purpose of the retreats is to explore maybe
why you're resonating and why you might not be, and
then thinking about how you can take that back into
(51:47):
your daily lives and create create the possibility for resonance.
And we're working very much on the I mean hartmut Rosa,
who's a German sociologist who wrote this superb book called Resonance,
(52:08):
and I have to say it's had an absolute profound
impact on me and I haven't read anything for a
long time where I've gone, aha, this is it. And
that's what shaped my thinking about changing from the side
of connection to resonance. So the retreats will be all around,
(52:32):
all about that of resonance, spaces resonant, the conditions for resonance,
and doing it in interesting places. I mean, it'd be
lovely to do one in the US. Maybe Washington at
the moment would be a good place. You know, there's
a few people there that could probably do with a
(52:53):
retreat like that. But yeah, it'd be lovely to do
one in the US. There'll be in Morocco, in North Africa,
Europe and then UK and who knows, maybe Australia. But
that's that's where my work is leading. That's where I
feel the book took me. It was quite interesting to
(53:15):
go from that very much focus on sound and soundscape
to the idea of resonance. So that's where yeah, so I.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Want to remind people. The book is called Soundscapes of Life.
You can search for doctor Mike Edwards Soundscapes of Life
Deep Listening and also for Mike's resonance retreats doctor Mike
Edwards under Sound Matters or Inner Indigenous and Mike, it's
(53:49):
been such a joy to have you here today and
just reminding everyone to listen in to conto shift and
you can also the best intro point to my work
is through my free workshop called my Genius Workshop. You
can just go to my Genius Workshop dot com and
(54:11):
connect with me and more of your own conscious shift
into your highest work and genius. It's been a joy
to be with you, Mike. Thanks for joining us on
Conscious Shift.
Speaker 4 (54:25):
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and world you most desire. And now here's your Conscious
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Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome everyone, This is julian Turner. Was so glad that
you're joining us for the Conscious Shift Show today and
if you're new to the show, I just want to
again celebrate your joining us and invite you to visit
us at Conscious shiftshow dot com where you'll find a
unique gift that I have for you, a conversation between
(00:58):
myself and godin that talks about how you can share
your unique genius with the world. So you can go
to conscious siss show dot com and you'll also be
added to our mailing list and we'll keep you a
prize of each show. Today we have a very special show.
I think you know if you've listened and I say
(01:20):
that every time, but I really do feel this is
a special show and we're going to be talking about
the soundscapes of life. And what I mean by that
is that in a world in crisis, we're really not
listening to each other, and we're really not listening to
the living world around us, and that is actually key
(01:44):
to resolving the crises that we find ourselves in. And today,
my special guest is doctor Mike Edwards, who is chief
listening officer at Sound Matters and also the co founder
of Innerdigenous, so we're going to talk about both of
those entities. Mike holds a PhD and he studies the
(02:11):
links between climate change and human security, and he's also
the author of a new book called Soundscapes of Life,
which is coming out this year. Mike, I'm so excited
to have you here. I know you've advised the Elders
Foundation and also leaders like Secretary General Kofianon and President
(02:34):
Jimmy Carter. You have a global view on this and
a personal view on this. I know that also from
our first meeting that you are a world class musician
as well, which speaks to the way that you know
about sound and listening you're one of the top digitidoo
players in the world where you learned that from your
(02:56):
time studying climate and getting your PhD in Australia, and
so want to explore your background, want to explore your worldview,
and want to explore your guidance and insights for us.
At this time. You mentioned that the impact that we
have such an impact of our soundscape in understanding the
(03:18):
larger environment and the world crisis with based talk to
us a little bit about your work in that area
and start us off with a bit of a bit
of context.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Right, Well, thanks Julian, and thanks for having me on
the show, and thanks for that lovely biographical or introduction.
I was actually thinking, God, have I done some of
those things? So if you ever need to get in
front of an interview panel on my behalf, that would
be great.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I'd love no.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Thank you so much, and yeah, it's a real pleasure
to be here, as you say, at a time of crisis,
you know, and I think that that's very much what
my work's about, exploring the causes and consequences of the
crisis we face, and primarily environmental in my case, and
(04:14):
as a result of exploring ways of addressing issues such
as climate change by diversity loss. That I became fascinated
by the idea of sensing these crises, and by that
I mean how we actually relate to and with them.
And obviously we live in a very visual world, you know,
(04:38):
you only have to think about social media. The way
we engage with the world is primarily through the sense
of sight if we are not visually impaired.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
So that I.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Became fascinated by the fact that maybe there are rather
sense modalities available to us for engaging with issues. And
sound became my primary sort of focus because, as you said,
I'm a digeridoo player, and that's I learned that skill
(05:12):
through listening to players in Australia, both traditional and contemporary.
And the amazing thing about did reydo is you can't
watch it being played because there's nothing to watch, you know,
there's no you can't see what the fingers are doing
on the keys, and so the only way you can
(05:34):
learn is through deep listening. And it was through that
process of trying to learn that I really started to
use my ears. I was I never trained as a
musician as a kid. In fact, I really struggled with
music partly because the way it was taught, you know,
you listen to a piece of you know, a Beethoven
(05:55):
symphony and it's like, well, tell us what's being played
and replicate it, and it's like, well, I actually don't
have the ability. So it was quite lovely to sort
of meet an instrument which didn't require and I say
this advisedly, didn't require technical proficiency to begin with. What
(06:18):
it required was, as I say that, deep listening. And importantly,
because the did redoo is very much a storytelling instrument,
you were encouraged in the learning process to listen to
your soundscape and try and replicate what you were hearing.
So what you might be hearing the waves on the
(06:41):
beach or water in a river, cooker burs, brolgas, different animals,
the movement. So it's an amazing instrument in terms of
connecting you to the environment. And it was through that
process that I thought, actually, this, this is a novel
(07:02):
way of trying to get people to engage with issues
like climate change, because, as we know, facts aren't going
to change our hearts or to extent they might our minds.
But you know, you can look at a graph of
CO two emissions over time, and you don't look at
that and think, oh no, oh no, I've got to
(07:22):
change my behavior, you know. It just it doesn't work
like that. You can be shocked, but it's not generally,
it doesn't have that profound impact. And that's what I
was looking for or hearing for, you know, a way
of profoundly engaging. So that's really why I became fascinated
(07:43):
by the soundscape and the stories the soundscape tells.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And sound is profound in that it's an energetic it's
a frequency that we can feel. We feel it in
addition to hearing it, and so it touches us deeply.
And the rhythms, it's fascinating to me. The way that
(08:09):
you described how you were taught to mirror the natural
world when you learned the didgeridoo. That's beautiful. That's quite beautiful.
And you also talk about, you know, our ancestors for
sixty thousand years, they had to do that to be
able to survive and thrive. And we've really lost touch
(08:31):
with that kinship with what you call the more than
human world, right.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, And there are two points, very important points there
that you make. That another reason I find sounds so
fascinating is exactly that, that you can have a hearing
impairment but you can still feel sound is still touching you.
And I think of amazing musicians I've come across, and
(09:00):
I know of even and Glenny the percussionist who is
profoundly deaf but senses and fields through her body the rhythm.
So I think that's another beautiful thing, the democracy of
sound in a sense, and how we all have access
to it in different ways. And then to come to
(09:23):
your other point.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
The.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Sorry, you'll have to remind me of your other point
you about.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
About our ancestors.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yes, yes, sorry, I've got a sidetracked by my own explanation.
But yes, if you think in the past survival depended
much more in many respects on hearing than it did sing.
I mean, if we were living in the savannah or
in dense forests, well sight wasn't as useful as hearing.
(10:00):
So if a saber toothed tiger or a big fierce
animal was wandering through you know, the grass, you couldn't
see it, so you'd be you'd be listening out for it.
So yeah, you could argue that hearing or listening has
been key to our survival up until recently and at
a time of profound crises, it seems relevant that we
(10:26):
relearn revisit that skill, the art of listening. And if
you just literally I mean I use you know, I say,
look around. But if you think about what's going on
in the world at the moment, it's a listening crisis.
There's lots of people speaking, but there's not a lot
(10:46):
of people truly listening, or if they are, they're listening
to what they want to hear, not what is actually
being spoken or said, or the processes that are shaping
the planet. And you know, the more the more I
think about it, the more I think listening is absolutely
key to our survival moving forward, and importantly finding the
(11:13):
sort of the ability to listen to things we don't
want to hear, and that's really important. Frequently people are like,
I don't want to hear that, and so you shape
your own, your own sort of experiences of the world.
But actually sometimes you do have to listen to the unpleasantries.
You know, you're seeing in the US at the moment,
(11:35):
we're seeing well, we're seeing it all around the world,
that there are these dominant voices that are starting to
shape the world. Now if people truly listened to what
these voices were saying, unless they had something seriously wrong
with them. They would be saying, actually, this is this
is dangerous, this is scary. But we're not we're not
(12:00):
not truly listening. We're hearing. We're hearing things that, oh, yeah,
you're right, that person who's coming into my country they
are taking my job. Well, it's ridiculous. You're just believing
a narrative through a dominant voice. So the ability to
actually listen and to interrogate what you're hearing is absolutely
(12:21):
key to solving a lot of the problems we face.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Absolutely. Part of the work that I was doing when
we met Mike was around dialogue. And that's not debate.
It's not trying to convince, persuade, overwhelm another person. But
it really is about an exchange of understanding. And I
(12:47):
would bring groups of people together where you would literally have,
you know, an immigrant to the US and a conservative
politician in the same circle, and each had an equal voice,
and by telling those stories, the entire group would then
(13:08):
gain more of a three hundred and sixty degree view
of the issue and understand the personal stories and the
reasons behind you know, why people took actions, and so
it's essential. It's an essential part I think of learning
to listen to one another, that it's not just listening
(13:29):
to express ourselves, but listening to understand no.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And that's something I delve into in the book quite deeply,
and I've sort of come up with this concept of
integral listening, which is very much about the fact that
you have an exterior soundscape and an interior soundscape, so
you can listen outward lead to something that's being said
(13:57):
or something you know, a process's creating a sound, but
the only way you engage and interpret it that is
through your internal dialogue. So whatever views and values you
hold will dictate what you hear. And you know, one
of the things I argue again in the book is
(14:18):
that actually learning to listen to the story in the
sound and not what you you know, the baggage you
bring to that is incredibly difficult. And you know, I
try it myself a lot. I'll I'll hear a political
view and I will be outraged and go my normal
(14:40):
angry way and sort of this is awful, and then
it's like, actually take a breath and actually listen to
that voice and try and try and I mean in
a sense it's I mean, it's a mindfulness practice in
a way, But in a sense it's not because you're
not you are trying to interrogate your feelings. You're not
(15:00):
trying to be detached from it. You're actively trying to say, right,
why am I feeling that way? And importantly, what I've
found is sometimes when you find yourself resonating with something
that you know deep down is wrong or incorrect, and
it's like, well, why is it I'm resonating with that?
(15:23):
And that's the whole thing, and we can come onto
that in a but I've become very I've become fascinated
by this idea of resonance as an approach. And we
talked a bit before in our personal discussion that in
a sense, it's so much it has so much more
depth than just this word connection. You know, I feel
connected to, But the whole resonance thing raises so much
(15:48):
more like why do I resonate with certain things? And
through that process of listening and thinking what's resonating there,
you kind of get a profound understanding your own thought
processes and things that might be going on subconsciously. And
this I think is happening more and more and problematically
(16:10):
is that clearly there are a lot of problems that
these populist leaders are. They're appealing to people, but that's
because a lot of these people are resonating with certain
concerns that and the way the world's going, but they've
never been able to voice that, because that's another thing.
(16:31):
It's like, you can't voice those concerns. I mean, we're
all being censored in every way, So those voices in
the mind get pushed down, and then all of a
sudden they're allowed to come out in these ridiculous shows
of racism, bigotry, whatever it might be. Whereas had they
(16:51):
been addressed, or had people been able to voice them
in circles like you said, and look, you know, say
I'm struggling with this view, then it doesn't have to
become such a horrible you know, or it doesn't have
to lead to such horrible outcomes. So I think that
understanding resonance, being able to listen to both your external
(17:16):
soundscape and your internal soundscape, really allows you to start
to to understand what is shaping beliefs and values. And
I think that's so key at the moment.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It is with political divisiveness. And also I'd be interested
to hear you know, your perspective on how that affects
you know, climate change, biodiversity, those areas. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Well, I mean, as you know, I've worked on climate
change for so many years, and I've worked at it
from a sort of research sort of I say scientific.
I've never been a scientist, but I did explore the science, impacts,
and policy aspects of climate change in Australia. And one
(18:14):
thing I found, again which was so profound, is that
there was a dominant voice in all in the discourse. Now,
now we've got to this point that you either believe
in climate change.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Or you don't.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
You're either a believer or a denier, and it's like,
oh God, can't we be a bit more nuanced? And
I actually, I mean I coined the phrase ecocolonialism in
the Pacific because what I was seeing there is there
was a dominant voice around climate change which was constructed
(18:49):
by the industrialized, powerful countries. That basically meant that the poorer,
vulnerable countries became poorer and more vulnerable because they were
being told that they had no control over this threat. Obviously,
those with the power to change were the big polluters.
(19:11):
And I noticed in some of my research, particularly in
some of the smaller Pacific islands, that this narrative was
actually leading to disempowerment. And understandably, if you're being told
that your island's going to disappear in fifty years time,
you're going to be a little concerned. There'd be something
wrong with you if you weren't. So a lot of
(19:33):
indigenous adaptation strategies to weather related problems which had shaped
the island's history, because I've always been vulnerable to climate
weather related threats, but those were almost being lost and
agency was being given to the big polluters. And so
(19:56):
the whole what I was seeing there was the people
were listening more to those who were perpetuate or perpetrating
perpetuate the threat of climate change. So power in both
ways in terms of the impacts, in terms of who
(20:18):
had control say over mitigation strategies were being that power
was being handed always to those with power, and so
it was quite difficult because I kind of got to
a point where I was saying, look, ignore the threat
of climate change, but I didn't mean that. If you
see what I didn't mean, like, just don't take it seriously,
(20:42):
but try and construct the threat on your terms and
then take the big polluters apart, you know, then go
to the cop meetings and everything. But that was met
it was quite interesting. It was met with quite a
lot of negativity, Like people didn't quite understand that I
(21:07):
wasn't denying the threat at all, but I was saying,
you've got to be careful that you don't give your
agency and power every time to those who are causing
the problem. So that came down again much more to
listening to listening to that voice, the voice of the island,
(21:29):
the voice of people who had adapted to those as
I say, whether in climate related events throughout history. Because
that was another thing. You know, specialists were flying into
these countries to tell them how to adapt to these problems.
And again, even at that level of local adaptation strategies,
(21:50):
power was being given to this sort of epistemic community
of international specialists. So all the power, that's all I was.
All the power was being handed to those who had
the power. And it's a wonderful way to be able
to say, look, unless we take action, you're going to disappear.
(22:10):
You know, your island's gone. So of course you then
have to engage in these international processes where again you're
a small player. So I was fascinated by that those
power plays, and I think I hope that my work now,
which is about encouraging people to listen to the sounds
(22:35):
of climate change, to listen to the impacts, but also
importantly listen to the dialogue, the discourses, the dominant discourses
of climate change, and start to see where you as
an individual, you as a vulnerable individual, can actually have power.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And would it be fair to say not only power
and choice, but also compassion where you're actually listening to,
as you say that, the soundscapes of nature and noticing
(23:18):
the nuances that we rarely tune into as we go
about our busy pedestrian days. And and I know that
you've done even some recordings where you bring in the
sounds of nature. Talk just a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yes, So this part of our work has been a
number of projects. We've done a big project on soundscape
restoration in Spain, we're currently doing one at Broughton Sanctuary
in Yorkshire. And a lot of that in a way
started with monitoring. Soundscape monitoring and by that I mean,
(24:01):
you know, putting up passive recorders recording sounds over particular
temporal spatial scales. But what we found there was that
in a sense we were just recording well, we were
just recording sounds. It was just another data collection exercise
(24:25):
and we were like, actually, is this really going to
have the impact we want? So we started to sort
of use a more arts based approach. Dare I say it?
You know, we brought a bit of creative license to it.
And one project in particular was actually with a great
friend of mine, Adam Hunt, who I've known since I
(24:46):
was four years old, and he was putting on a
garden for the Chelsea Flower Show, a rewilding Britain garden,
and the idea was to show how rewilding could change
the landscape. Through discussions with Adam, we were like, well,
actually one of the profound changes will be the soundscape.
(25:07):
And the amazing thing about beaver habitats is they look
a bloody mess generally, they really do. It's like what
the hell's going on here?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
So you look at it and you think, well, you know, wow,
do we really want that? But then you listen to
the soundscape and it's utterly beautiful. So we designed for
the garden a soundscape to show what would happen if
(25:38):
you did introduce beaver back into the British landscape, the
way the soundscape could change. So we with my colleague
Harry Code, who's a bit of a wizard with sound design.
He created this beautiful soundscape which was like the before
and after, and it's amazing the number of people who
(26:01):
commented on that. But the whole thing there was that
it wasn't just a monitoring a collection of sounds. It
was then bringing as I say, that creativity into then
sound designing something which people could listen to and then
have that like a harm moment. Because I'm very conscious
(26:23):
that we tend to be just monitoring more data, Like
we collect all this data to tell us well, actually, yeah,
the world is heading towards complete and utter destruction. You know,
do we need more data to tell us that what
we're doing is having a profound impact on the planet.
(26:44):
Of course, we need data to show that when we're
actually taking action to address the problems, you know, we
can show that, Yeah, that's beneficial. But I think we've
got to be careful that we don't just it's always
collect data. At some point you need to use that
hopefully to as I say, to create pieces, soundscape, music,
(27:07):
whatever it might be, which will lead to behavioral change.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
That's the key, isn't it. It's uh, it's one thing,
as you said earlier, to have the graph where you see,
you know, the increase in in uh disasters or climate
change impacts. And yet as humans, what you know, we
can have a reaction of what does that mean for me?
(27:34):
What what can I do? Perhaps hopefully, but when you
hear the contrast between the soundscapes and what's possible when
we actively hold debate robust, diverse habitats, then uh, the
sound itself, as we said, it can touch touch us
(27:57):
in a human way.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Well massively. And again this project in Spain has been
fascinating because where we're working in southern Spain, there's a
huge amount of work going on on landscape regeneration. Now,
the interesting thing is that process doesn't visually is often
(28:19):
not that stimulating. So you might go to an olive
or alm and grove which has been let to go
a little more wild, so some beautiful grasses, aromatic herbs
and that, and okay, it looks better than an industrially
farmed you know, which is literally just bare soil and
(28:42):
these trees, but it doesn't necessarily make you think, oh,
this is amazing. But again, when you hear the difference
between the soundscape of the industrial industrially farmed arm and
olive groves compared to those that are being regenerated, it's,
you know, it's just this beautiful sort of cacophony. That's
(29:06):
the right word, but it is. It's just it's it's amazing,
you know. And I think that's what we've realized that
frequently the soundscape, and Bernie Krause says this, you know,
it tells a really profound story of change, and I
think that's the thing there. Of course, there's the more
(29:28):
analytical side of that, and then there's the more creative
arts based and I think that's where we probably because
we we don't necessarily have the technical ability to do
a proper sort of soundscape bioacoustic soundscape, acoustic ecology analysis.
(29:50):
But and that's the beauty, you know, you can get
so many different people involved in this, and you can
use those sounds in different ways. So I think I
think that's why I I've just become so fascinated with
and buy it and It all comes back to those
first early days of listening to the landscape to try
(30:10):
and learn how to play a didgerido.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
So that's that's such a beautiful origin story in a way,
and we want to take just a quick break here
and then we're going to come back and talk about
uh introdigenous fascinating concept and now organization that you've that
you've launched, and also talk about your new book, Soundscapes
(30:35):
of Life. Well, this is Julianne Turner will be right
back with doctor Mike Edwards Shift.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
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(33:46):
action guide and audios to guide you step by step
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welcome back everyone.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
This is Julianne Turner. We're glad you're joining again to
our show Conscious Shift, and we are here today talking
with doctor Mike Edwards, who is Chief Listening US, Chief
Listening Officer at Sound Matters and co founder of Indigenous. Mike,
(34:23):
I want to talk a little bit about that that
term that you have coined and what the entity of
indigenous is.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah, that's it's an interesting it's an interesting question, because
I still struggle a little bit with the with the name.
I don't want to be perceived as appropriating anything which
isn't mine to sort of engage with. But the whole
(34:54):
idea of Indigenous is that there is we all have
a connect to place, and that connection needn't be because
we've been there for forty fifty thousand years. It may
be because we just feel that profound, you know, we're
resonating with a landscape. And that was the idea really
(35:17):
of Indigenous is that unless we can feel that from
an interior perspective, that connection, a lot of what we're
trying to do to address environmental issues simply won't work
because they've just become scientific and technical challenges, which largely
it's become, you know, climate change hasn't really got much
(35:38):
of a spiritual aspect. It's more about have we got
the technical ability to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? And Indigenous
was a sort of a realization that unless we've become
deeply connected to the more than human and I like
the phrase more than human, I borrow it from David Abram,
(36:02):
philosopher and environmental thinker who wrote the beautiful book The
Spell of the sensuous. But it's this idea that unless
we can have that profound and I say connection, I
now think it's resonance with the other, with what we
are part and parcel of, But we continue to separate
(36:25):
ourselves from then all our science and technology just I
just don't think it's going to address the fundamental crisis
that we face. And I've always felt this that it's
a spiritual crisis, it's not a technical challenge. And as
(36:46):
I say, Indigenous is an attempt to bring that to
the fore, to run retreats, to get people to understand that,
to know what it is to resonate with a landscape.
An interesting I was talking to Adam, who I mentioned
Chelsea Flower Show fame about this just earlier this week
(37:11):
my mother's funeral, and we were talking about what it
means to be connected. And he has lived in other
parts of the world and the other parts of the country,
and I have lived away in Australia and I love
I love Australia. I love the Australian landscape. I mean
(37:32):
I have a profound relationship with it. Yet I never
felt the same connection to the land as I do
to where I was born. It's something that I mean, honestly,
if you saw where I live now, it's just they're
(37:53):
building over everything. I mean, it's just a building site.
And yet I still have this deep resonance with the
earth here and I cannot explain it. And that's what
Indigenous is trying to explore and trying to help people
to have that relationship, because it's the relationship that's going
(38:15):
to save us. It really is, because once you have
that connection, you have generally an empathy towards it. You
don't want to see it destroyed. If you don't have that,
then you can develop it. You can become, you know,
a speculative developer. You just want to build on it.
You just want to make money. But you wouldn't do
(38:37):
that if that held childhood memories, unless you've got some
psychopathic problem, which a lot of these people have, but
that's a different, different podcast. You know, if you have
that deep resonance, you can't you can't let these landscapes go.
(38:57):
They are part and parcel of who and what you
are are as a spiritual being. But we're almost it's
so funny and environmental sort of discourse. Now it's all
about net zero targets. It's all about adaptation policies, climate finance.
(39:17):
But very few people are talking about love. Very few
people are talking about that. You know, as I say,
those resonant relationships, and that's what we need to be
talking about because otherwise we lose it and we lose
it and again it becomes a graph, it becomes data
points of what's being lost. But what does that mean?
(39:39):
Like here, for example, the dawn chorus. When I was
a kid, I used to wake up, you know, the
east began to glow and my Avian friends would start
their you know, their chatter and it was just utterly beautiful.
Now in my lifetime that's changed profoundly. You don't have
that dawn chorus and one particular species, so the cuckoo,
(40:03):
which used to be that it used to be the
sign that spring was arriving. You know, these travelers who
had flown from Africa to southern England and you would
wake up and you'd hear the cuckoo and it's like
spring is here. You very rarely in this part of
the UK, now do you hear one? Now for my
(40:26):
kids that might not be an issue because they don't
have memories of what was there before. But for me,
I do. But what worries me more is that if
my kids don't have those memories, then something else is
going to replace that. And this is what we're saying,
virtual world, social media, it's replacing that loss. There's still
(40:47):
the kids still want that profound connection, but they're looking
at it or for it in these you know, in phones,
in computers, virtual worlds, and that terrifies me because that
replace the more than human, that natural element, and that
scares me.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
And it really does speak to our lack of true connection.
It's there's a there's a artificial connection in media, games
and those kinds of things, but it's not a human
or a connection with nature. And so I do agree
(41:30):
with you. It is a spiritual question and crisis. And
I know that al Gore talks about it as a
as a moral crisis. H do we believe that we're
one with one another and one with this natural world
as part of a dynamic living system where we're uh
(41:54):
integrally intertwined and dependent on one another and also can nurture
one another to to to to grow and to have
more life, which is really what life is about. More
life and or you know, will we choose to to
(42:16):
believe in separateness that leads to that divisiveness that we're seeing,
and to two divorce ourselves when caring about the environment
as if we can, right? I know that. I interviewed
Jared Diamond, who wrote Guns, Journalists and Steel and also
(42:40):
wrote a book called Collapse, How societies choose to fail
or succeed And and the most striking thing that is
important for all of us to hear I think is
he says, you know, even in a harsh environment, collapse
isn't inevitable, but it depends on society's choice. We have
(43:02):
the power that the the aid us he to choose
each one of us. Right, will we stand up for
the climate? Uh? You know? Will we stand up for
one another? Or not? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Yeah? And I mean I pleased you mentioned Jared Dunn's
work because he was very influential in my early thinking
and particularly Collapsed. And I think he wrote I think
it was the third Chimpanzee or anyway, but his Yeah,
his work amazing and it's absolutely true. And I think
this is the problem. We're starting to believe that somehow
(43:42):
technology can replace those aspects of connection and resonance. But
the more we the more we delve into it. And
this it does make me laugh, not in a haha way,
but the fact that there's so much research now coming
out that nature is good for us, Like, oh, thanks
for telling me. I'm pleased you've done ten years of
(44:04):
research to tell me something. You know, it's like, for
goodness' sake. I think we know that, we know it intuitively,
but now we need we need science to tell us
that a connection to nature is important for our well being.
But that's that's just like testament to where we are,
(44:25):
you know, where we've got to that we can even
question the fact that we need that. It's it's utter madness.
And somehow we can replace that with these virtual worlds
and all this tech which doesn't it doesn't improve Sorry,
that's not correct. I should say it improves certain aspects
of our lives, but it doesn't replace. You know, that
(44:49):
feeling when you get up, you look at a beautiful scene,
or you hear a beautiful soundscape, you walk through a
forest and you just get that ah, that feeling. Well,
that feeling is about being human in a more than
human world. It's that feeling is what connection and resonance
means it doesn't need a huge amount of analysis. Like
(45:12):
everyone who spends time in nature, providing it's not you know,
in a hurricane or in but in a relatively calm
sort of environmental situation, derives benefits and they will talk
of that. And interestingly, if that weren't the case, then
why do people choose to go on holiday to places
(45:36):
which are lovely? Why do they not choose to go
to industrial wastelands? Why do they not choose to go?
And I mean some people do. Some of these tourist
results are industrial, but that's another story. But you know,
generally people seek out beautiful places and it's like soundscapes, soundscape,
all of this like a beautiful soundscape. It's healing, it's
(46:00):
being shown to be healing. So I don't know, I
think what we're we're discussing is actually so simple, yet
it's become so profound and so urgent, and that I
suppose that brings me probably onto the book. It's you
know it, That book is my sort of wake up
(46:23):
call to both myself and hopefully my readers. And the
important thing is the book. The book is not for specialists,
soundscape specialists, because they know they'll know it all. They'll
read it and they'll be like, well, I know this,
But what it is aimed to do is to bring
the soundscape to those who may not have considered it,
(46:48):
and especially those searching for different ways to engage with
environmental issues, different ways to interrogate their thought processes, the
whole idea of well being. So it's kind of a
general it's a general introduction and hopefully presenting certain methods
(47:09):
and methodologies, and it starts and ends with the discussion
of playing the didgerido and how that simple process, you know,
blowing down a hollow piece of wood circular breathing has
shaped my entire environmental philosophy. So I yeah, I hope
(47:32):
the book. I want it to be read. It's so
funny when I was doing my PhD, and also my
dad used to say, you've got to make sure that
the reader sort of engages with what you write on
your terms, you know, and that I don't mean that
in an arrogant way, but I want it to be
(47:52):
read for how it was written, as I say, a
general introduction, a celebration of the soundscape, a sort of
an attempt to bring the soundscape into climate change. Environmental
discourse as hopefully a new way of engaging with some
(48:12):
of these big scary issues.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Yes, so the book is Soundscapes of Life, and Mike
tell us when and how we can can receive that book.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Yes, so, it's Soundscapes of Life, Deep Listening to the
world around us. It's published by Routledge, which is an
academic publisher. It's available worldwide, and maybe excuse me, it's
pre order is November seventeenth and publication date is the
(48:50):
eighth of December. And if you just just type in
Soundscapes of Life, Deep Listening, you hopefully will find it
in a Boo shop near you.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Fantastic. I can't wait for that to be out in
the world. And one of the things that touched my
heart is that you talk about the hearth as a
meeting place of connection, of resonance, and you have forwards
(49:25):
that touch me here heart, Earth and art. We've talked
a bit about each one of those. Can you give
us just a little sketch of how those work in
your work?
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Well, it's very interesting. Literally, just before I was joined
the podcast, I was speaking to a colleague, Christopher bad
whose lecturer at Queen's University in entrepreneurship, and we're actually
so we're developing retreats in which will be very much
(50:02):
their resonance retreats, and the idea is that they occur
around the hearth, and so it's both a physical space
and a sort of I suppose its spiritual space as well,
not that those two need to be separate, but the
idea is that we will run these retreats. They will
(50:23):
start in Morocco and hopefully hopefully will go worldwide. But
it's very much about here, heart Earth art, so we hear,
we listen to one one another. It's arts based, so
it's about the role of creativity and finding solutions to
(50:44):
crisis and exploring the process of resonance Earth, the fact
that that's what it's all about. And then heart. Again,
this idea of trying not to make it to much
of an analytical process, that this is very much about feeling, sensing,
(51:06):
and that's what the resonance retreats will be about, is
how do you design for resonance because it's not guaranteed.
You know, you can go to Morocco, which is utterly beautiful,
many parts of it are very beautiful, and where we'll
be running the retreats will be, but there's no guarantee
(51:27):
you'll resonate with that landscape or what's being discussed, what
you're eating, what you're hearing, what you're touching. And so
the whole purpose of the retreats is to explore maybe
why you're resonating and why you might not be, and
then thinking about how you can take that back into
(51:47):
your daily lives and create create the possibility for resonance.
And we're working very much on the I mean hartmut Rosa,
who's a German sociologist who wrote this superb book called Resonance,
(52:08):
and I have to say it's had an absolute profound
impact on me and I haven't read anything for a
long time where I've gone, aha, this is it. And
that's what shaped my thinking about changing from the side
of connection to resonance. So the retreats will be all around,
(52:32):
all about that of resonance, spaces resonant, the conditions for resonance,
and doing it in interesting places. I mean, it'd be
lovely to do one in the US. Maybe Washington at
the moment would be a good place. You know, there's
a few people there that could probably do with a
(52:53):
retreat like that. But yeah, it'd be lovely to do
one in the US. There'll be in Morocco, in North Africa,
Europe and then UK and who knows, maybe Australia. But
that's that's where my work is leading. That's where I
feel the book took me. It was quite interesting to
(53:15):
go from that very much focus on sound and soundscape
to the idea of resonance. So that's where yeah, so I.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Want to remind people. The book is called Soundscapes of Life.
You can search for doctor Mike Edwards Soundscapes of Life
Deep Listening and also for Mike's resonance retreats doctor Mike
Edwards under Sound Matters or Inner Indigenous and Mike, it's
(53:49):
been such a joy to have you here today and
just reminding everyone to listen in to conto shift and
you can also the best intro point to my work
is through my free workshop called my Genius Workshop. You
can just go to my Genius Workshop dot com and
(54:11):
connect with me and more of your own conscious shift
into your highest work and genius. It's been a joy
to be with you, Mike. Thanks for joining us on
Conscious Shift.
Speaker 4 (54:25):
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