WHEN: Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing Dan Pink

Catch the Global #ConsciousSHIFT Show as Daniel Pink
joins Host Julie Ann Turner for a thought-provoking dialogue
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ConsciousSHIFT with Julie Ann Turner featuring
Daniel Pink /WHEN: Secrets of Perfect Timing

Timing is everything ... but we don't know much about timing itself. It turns out, timing is not an art - it is a science ... one we may use to our great benefit.

Our lives are a neverending stream of 'when' decisions:
when to start a business, schedule a class, get serious about a person.

Yet we make those decisions based on intuition and guesswork.

Timing, it's often assumed, is an art; Daniel Pink shows that timing is in fact a science.

Drawing on a rich trove of research from psychology, biology and economics, Pink reveals how best to live, work and succeed.

* How can we use the hidden patterns of the day to build the ideal schedule?

* Why do certain breaks dramatically improve student test scores?

* How can we turn a stumbling beginning into a fresh start?

* Why should we avoid going to the hospital in the afternoon?

* Why is singing in time with other people as good for us as exercise?

* And what is the ideal time to quit a job, switch careers, or get married?

Join Julie Ann and Dan for irresistible stories and practical takeaways that will give you compelling insights into how we can live richer, more engaged lives.

Julie Ann Turner's ConsciousSHIFT with Julie Ann Turner Radio Show is broadcast worldwide to more than 680,000+ global followers and growing, where Julie Ann interviews the visionaries leading Conscious SHIFT unfolding across the globe - like Marianne Williamson, Seth Godin, Don Miguel Ruiz, and more - as we all realize we are the only ones who can consciously choose to CREATE the world we wish to see.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
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(00:46):
your Conscious Shift host Julianne Turner.Hello everyone, this is Julianne Turner,
Welcoming, Welcoming YouTube Conscious Shift,and we are so glad that you are
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And if you're new to the show, want to remind you that I have
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So really welcoming you all here today, and we have a really profound and

(02:15):
powerful message for you today about timing. Have you ever felt like you've had
either bad timing or good timing?Well, our guest today actually has discovered
that timing is even more important thanwe've ever imagined, and that timing has

(02:38):
a great effect on our lives onjust about everything from how we spend our
days and the best times to havea job performance review to you know,
when's the best time of day foryou to do your best work. And
so we're going to delve deeply intothat with one of my favorite visionaries and

(03:00):
authors of all time, Daniel Pink, who is the author of many great
books that we've shared here, Driveto Sell as Human, and one of
my very favorites is A Whole NewMind. Dan, it's great to have
you back here on Conscious Shift.Julianne, it's good to be back.

(03:21):
Thanks for having me. Absolutely.I was so so excited to see your
new book all about timing. It'scalled When WGN When The Scientific Secrets of
Perfect Timing. And we all wouldlike to have perfect timing, wouldn't we?
We would, And actually there's alot of research out there to help

(03:44):
us make better timing decisions all acrossmany, many domains, from economics to
social psychology, to cognitive science toendo chronology. There's a wrap of research
and then if you go wide enoughto deep enough into it, you can
begin to piece together the evidence spaceways to make more systematically smarter, shrewder
when decisions in our life. Andwhat you're talking about, Dan is really

(04:06):
important because, as you mentioned inthe book, we often think that,
you know, we kind of havethis perception that timing is kind of an
art and it's not really something thatwe can use strategically, but it's actually
a science. And everything that youjust mentioned is a science. No economics
psychology. You know all of thosethings, and so now you have brought

(04:30):
together some real clues and guidelines forus and how to make our timing more
effective. And so one of themost powerful pieces that I would love for
us to start with is that youreally have identified and helped us tune into
some hidden patterns in our days.And there's a pattern for each of us,

(04:56):
and it varies by who we are, But there's a hidden pattern in
our day. Can you explain moreabout what that pattern is and how each
one of us has our own littlekind of timing type or chronotype. Sure,
sure, so what we know?Okay, that's a great way to
start, Julian. So what weknow is that each individual does have a

(05:20):
particular chronotype. That's just a fancyway of saying, what's our Are we
morning people or evening people? What'sour propensity is? Are we more likely
to go to sleep early in themorning wake up early at night? I'm
sorry, we're likely to go tosleep early in the morning and then go
to sleep early at night, orare we more likely to go to sleep
later and wake up later? AtFirst group morning people we like to call

(05:42):
them larks. Second group evening peoplewe like to call them ols. The
truth of the matter is that mostof us are somewhere in the middle.
And if you look at the distributionof chronotypes, what you see is you
have about fifteen percent of people ourstrong larks, twenty percent are strong night
outs. Most of us are whatI call third birds, are in the
middle. That's the first step infiguring out how to use these hidden patterns

(06:06):
of the day. The second stepis this. What we know is that
we typically move through the day inthree stages. There is a peak,
a trough, and a rebound.Now large and third birds typically moved through
it in that order, Peak,trough, rebound, and I'll typically go
the other direction. What we knowis the peak, which again for most

(06:28):
of us is the morning, isthat that's when we are very good at
analytic work, heads down work.We're locked in focus eliminating distractions. During
the trough, which is the earlyafternoon, we're not good at very much
at all. You're better off doingyour administrative work then. And then in
the recovery period, which for mostof us is a late afternoon and early

(06:49):
evening, we're better off doing creativework. And the reason for that is
that our mood is better than duringthe trough, but we're less but we're
less vigilant and during the peak,so we let in new ideas. And
so simply that small step right,figure out your tent, figure out your
type larker owl or third bird.Figure out what kind of task you're doing,

(07:09):
is it analytic, administrative or creative, and you can make a spew
small change to your schedule and youcan optimize your productivity and your creativity.
Now, again, this is nota magic bullet of any kind, but
what the research shows is that timeof day explains about twenty percent of the

(07:30):
variant in how people perform on workplacetasks. So it's a it's a pretty
big deal. Yeah, it's reallysignificant. I was really remarkable, you
know, remarkably surprised by that twentypercent variance. And Dan, actually,
from reading all the research you didaround those hidden patterns, it seems like
maybe twenty percent in variance in performancemight be on the low end. I

(07:54):
just got a sense of that.Yeah, I don't know, you know
what, it's hard to say,that's that's that's that's a great question,
and I'm not sure, you know, locking it down with that specificity.
But what we know without any doubtis that it makes a big difference in
our performance. And and this isand that's actually the key of the book
is that a lot of times,Julianne, we're you know, we're intentional

(08:16):
about, especially on the job,what do we do, how do we
do it, who do we doit with? But we give these questions
of when we do stuff the shortend of the stick, and it really
really matters. Yeah, it does. And to think that just by making
a few adjustments to align your yourperformance and your tasks to the best timing

(08:39):
for you, you can have atwenty percent plus boost and performance. That's
pretty profound. And it seems tome too, Dan that you're actually going
to enjoy your day a little bitbetter because you're you're really kind of moving
with your natural rhythms. Right,You're exactly right about that. That's a

(09:01):
big part of it, julian It'snot only about performance. It's also about
mood. And our mood actually changesover the course of the day as well.
And there's some really intriguing research onthis. And and so you know,
our mood effects our performance, Ourperformance effects our mood, and so
getting it right. What social psychologistscall the synchrony effect is really the is

(09:26):
really the key. And Dan,do you as you were doing this research,
did you find any parallels with theidea of creative flow? Oh?
Interesting? Yeah, yeah, didyou did you tune into any of that?
In other words, can following theserhythms help us maybe like move into

(09:52):
flow more easily. That's actually areally great question, and I think the
answer is h. In one dimension, I think the answer is yes,
and another dimension, I know theanswer is yes. So in the first
part, Uh, one of thethings that the that that that having getting

(10:13):
that synchrony effect helps us do issimply doing the right work at the right
time enables us to enter that flowstate exactly as you're saying. So that
feeling that we sometimes have when we'relocked in locked down time is melting away.
That's more likely to happen when we'reoperating at our optimal time for a

(10:33):
task. So that's that's the one. So I think that's generally right.
What the what some other research showsis in another domain is the importance of
breaks. And we have so woefully, woefully undervalued breaks. And one of
the things that the research on breaksshows even the research on lunch is that

(10:54):
having breaks makes this more likely tofind those moments to flow more easily than
not. Yeah, I loved whatyou said about breaks. Now you and
I know, Dan because we bothkind of have worked for years in the
areas of creativity, is that it'sit's been understood for you know, some

(11:16):
time, that breaks are really essentialto creativity, not just a nice to
have. And yet in business,and as you pointed out, even in
school, breaks are being diminished,not valued, and so are right,
are the way that we're actually structuringthe places where we need to be most

(11:39):
most you know, innovative in ourbusinesses, in schools. We need to
have this awareness that breaks are absolutelyessential. You're You're exactly right. I'm
not sure how much the awareness Imean, your listeners Julia certainly have that
awareness. But the mass of menand women out there in the world,

(12:00):
I don't think really realize that.And this is actually, to me some
of the most interesting research that Iuncovered. We really do, I mean,
I'm your Hallelujah chorus on this one. What we really need to do
is look at breaks differently. Ithink a lot of times in our and
I say this as someone who felldown this rabbit hole myself, like I

(12:22):
didn't, you know, typically takevery many breaks in the course of a
work day, but I thought itwas better to power through. I always
looked at breaks as kind of adeviation from performance rather than part of performance.
And that's what it is. It'spart of performance. And so we
need to be much more systematic abouttaking breaks. And we also know a

(12:43):
lot more about what kinds of breaksto take. We know that social breaks
are more effective than solo breaks.We know that breaks where you move are
more effective than breaks where you're notmoving. We know that we know that
breaks where you're in nature are morerestorative than those that are not. And

(13:05):
so we can get a lot betterabout taking breaks and using them, as
you say, Julie, to improveThey definitely improve creativity. There's some good
research hory to stand for showing thattaking walks is a great way to boost
one's level of productivity. There's alsoother research, just more broadly showing that

(13:26):
it helps our emotional well being andit improves their productivity, it reduces exhaustion.
Some really really beneficial breaks and beneficialeffects of breaks, and the bang
for the buck is terrific. Youdon't have to have a massively long break
to get some of the restorative benefits. Yes, and I was with you,

(13:50):
Dan, and have been for yearsin terms of the many detrimental effects
of schools eliminating recess, right,because not only are we not are kids
not moving at a time when we'reseeing obesity, you know, skyrocket in
our children, but also your researchshows that eliminating research has you know,

(14:15):
measurably negative effect on test scores,on student learning. And at the same
time, you know, forty percentof schools have eliminated recess. Yeah,
no, it's really again, it'sthe same. It's it's basically the junior
version of what we're talking about before, is that educators, not actually educators
know this. I think policymakers don'tnecessarily that that recess is not is part

(14:37):
of a kids learning, it's nota deviation from it. And there's some
very intriguing early results showing in someschool districts in Texas actually serving generally low
income kids, that giving kids andit's and it's counteratuitive that giving kids more
recess is actually an effective way toboost their test scores. If we're concerned

(14:58):
about test scores. Happens typically isthat all we got to eliminate tests,
We eliminate recess in order to getthese test scores up, when in fact,
adding those recesses is a way togive kids that restoration. Let kids
blow off steam, let them allowthem to replenish in a very effective way.
There's some interesting research out of Denmarkshowing that it's alarming at on one

(15:22):
level that kids who take standardized testsin the afternoon typically score lower than kids
who take them in the morning.But a remedy for that is giving those
afternoon test takers a twenty or thirtyminute break immediately before taking the test that
takes their scores back up. Wow. And one of the things that you
pointed out too, We've always knownit, Dan, right, It's like

(15:43):
everybody talks about that after lunch slump, you know that the afternoon slump.
But you actually found like there's moreto it than we even thought. Right
afternoons are yeah, like a dangerouslife. It's not. I mean,
afternoon swim sounds kind of benign,but this is what what the what some
of the data show are are arehardly benign at all. So if you

(16:07):
look at even like medical errors.You're three times, you're four times more
likely to have an anesthesia or fora procedure that begins at three pm rather
than at nine am. If youtake if you if you go to get
a colonoscopy, you in the afternoon, doctor's fine in the same population,
half as many polyps. If younurses in hospitals, dramatic decline in hand

(16:30):
washing in the afternoon. And sothere's some so that so that that trough,
it can be dangerous. There isa remedy, not perfect remedy.
But again this is where breaks comein. Breaks can alleviate a big part
of that. Yeah, that theseverity of the afternoon impact without a break

(16:52):
that you call afternoons the Bermuda triangleof our days, say are but I
mean I wish, yeah, Imean I wish, I wish that weren't
true, But they really are.It's where a lot of good intentions sail
into and never return. Yeah.You give some great examples in your book
when uh Daniel about you know,even the opening example about the Lusitania,

(17:18):
you know, and some some decisionsthat the captain made uh in in in
some really bad decisions that you said, maybe it was the afternoon when he
made those because they were very tragic, uh decisions. And so we really
need to be tuned into, firstof all, the the rhythms of the
day, and the rhythms unique toourselves right are are whether we're a lark,

(17:44):
a morning person, an owl,a night owl, or kind of
the the third bird, the middleof the day kind of person. There's
more of us. We really wantto be aware of these things because it
can make a huge difference. Oneof the examples that you gave also struck
me is that taking a standardized testin the afternoon can be equivalent to students

(18:07):
missing two weeks of school. Nowthat's dramatic, it's true. This is
some This is research out of Denmark, very interesting research led by Francesca Gino
at Harvard that looked at two millionDAINUS standardized test scores. And what happened
here, I don't know, maybeyour listeners will be interested in this is

(18:30):
that in Denmark students take this takethe standardized test, but unlike here,
they take them on most schools.Here they take them on computers rather than
pencil and paper, you know,those little bubble forms and number two pencils
to take them on computers. However, typical Danish school has more students than
computers, so as a consequence,students are randomly assigned to take the test

(18:52):
at certain times today and exactly tosay, Julian lo and behold, those
afternoon test takers didn't do very well. It was, as you say,
it was like missing two weeks ofschool. And I think what should alarm
us about that is, you know, going back to what we were talking
about earlier, is that when wethink about something like the education of our
kids is something obviously that parents andpolicymakers and citizens of all kids care very

(19:18):
deeply about. We do think hardwhat should our kids be learning. We
do think hard how should they belearning? What are the best pedagogical approaches?
We do think hard who is thebest to teach them these things?
But when it comes to the questionof when, whatever, and it matters.
Yeah, if there's any sort ofcry out in this book, it's

(19:38):
like, start taking these when questionsseriously because they have a deep, deep
effect on many, many corners ofour life, as you say, from
health care to education, to criminaljustice, overall well being, criminal justice,
healthcare, everything. Yeah, absolutely, job perform as you said,

(20:00):
you know organizations, you know,our corporations or organizations. It would make
such a big difference if you know, we were aware of these these timing
issues and the aware of the performancedifference that taking breaks and yes, even
taking naps. Uh, that wouldbe that would be an amazing thing,

(20:23):
wouldn't if if if our organizations letus take naps, Because what you found
out is that naps are extremely likethey're turbo boosters. They improve reaction time,
alertness, you know, uh,just help us perform optimally. And

(20:44):
so who would imagine an organization thatwould actually have not only meditation rooms stand
but like nap rooms. There area few. I mean if you look
at certain certain companies, like youknow, technology companies usually Uber had quarters
has that Zappos does, and youknow again you know what, what I

(21:04):
think to me, what was interestingabout the nap research is how short,
how short naps actually play pay payoff big time, that you don't need
a massively long nap, that thatvery brief naps ten to twenty minutes really
might be the ideal. Yeah,I loved it in in your book when

(21:26):
you call it the napa Chino.Yeah, that's a certain that's Actually,
I wish i'd come up with that. I'd heard that from some I heard
that elsewhere. I love I lovecoining words, and I would love to
take credit for coining that one,but that that preceded me the But that's
a particular kind of nap. It'skind of not that I take now,
and it's it's very peculiar. Whatyou do is what I do, is

(21:48):
it starts out and this is thebeginning is a little bit weird. Take
it. The ideal. The idealnap is that you have a cup of
coffee. First, I'll explain why. I'll explain why in a moment.
So you have a cup of coffee. Then what I do is I set
my phone along. I have acountdown timer on my phone. I set
up for twenty three minutes. Andwhat I do is I sit in chair.
I have a comfortable chair in myoffice with a little like footstool,

(22:12):
and I will put on my headphones. I have big I have like wrap
around headphones, not to ear buzzs, but like real old fashion headphones.
Put up. I'm talking to youon them right now. As a matter
of fact, I have big.I have big headphones, and I put
those on. I sometimes will puton like like an eemass to black out
the light, not always, andI will just plug in my you know,

(22:33):
put those headphones on, lie backin the chair, set the alarm
for the countdown for twenty three minutes, and then try to go to sleep.
Now, what I found is thatthe first couple of times you do
this, it's harder to fall asleep. But you mentioned meditation. It's sort
of like meditation. You get betterat it as time goes on. And
so now I typically, in theespecially in the afternoon lull, can fall
asleep in like seven eight minutes.So that gives me what do is?

(22:56):
I give you fifteen sixteen minutes ofan actual nap that's really in the sweet
spot between ten and twenty, andthen the alarm goes off at twenty three
minutes, you know, and Iwake up. But here's the bonus.
It takes about twenty five minutes forcaffeine to get into our bloodstream. So
the moment I'm waking up fully refreshfrom that nap, I'm getting the second
kick from the caffeine. That's theideal nap. As you say, Julie,

(23:19):
it's a n appuccino. Oh,my gosh, that's optimal. I
love it now. That is perfecttiming if we've ever heard it so indeed,
yeah, absolutely, And I've justgot to say, Dan, you
know, one of the there areso many things I love about your books
because they help us think differently.You know, I have to say,

(23:41):
you know, A Whole New Mindis one of the most I think one
of the most significant books of ourtime because it really right, because it
really talks about the importance of balancinga right brain in our left brain.
And of course we know that that'swhen we say right brain and left brain,
it's just a useful reference, youknow, way that we reference right

(24:06):
just different capabilities of our brains.But it's it is useful. And so
we've given so much focus and wereward left brain in our in our schools,
in our in our education system,and in our western business world.
And yet what we're seeing, asyou pointed out long ago in that book,

(24:29):
was the rise of the importance ofour right brain. Our creativity,
our innovation is the most valuable andit's really what we're looking at today in
a globally networked world that enables notonly UH innovation uh in that sense,
but it basically creates more pie insteadof just further subdividing you know, the

(24:55):
pie that already exists. And soso it is extremely important that we learn
to use every asset that we canand every bit of knowledge that we can
to enhance and encourage our creativity.And so this book about timing has so
much to say about optimizing our creativityand our performance at every level. And

(25:22):
really, there's nowhere where we don'twant to improve our performance. I think
nobody would say no, I thinkI'd like nowhere orm less. But also,
but again, as you said,Julianne, it's not only our performance,
it's overall sense of well being.I mean, you know we are
here, you know, human beings. Yes, we have to we want
to do well at work, wewant to contribute to the world, but

(25:42):
we also want to have a senseof meaning, we want to have a
sense of broader health and well being, and timing matters on that significantly.
Yeah. Absolutely, And we aregoing to take just a very short break,
Dan, and then we're going toI'm back. I've got some really

(26:02):
cool questions for you about beginnings,midpoints, and endings. Sound good,
great, sounds great. This isJulianne Turner, we will be right back
with Dan Pink on Conscious Shift.If you love the voices and visionaries shared

(26:52):
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(28:03):
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(28:27):
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(29:10):
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by step to make your own consciousshift into your true greatness today. Welcome

(29:40):
back everyone. This is Julianne Turner. You are listening to Conscious Shift and
you are here in Perfect Timing listeningto our conversation with Daniel Pink, the
best selling author of the new bookQuinn The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing,
and we've been having a fascinating conversationthe first part of the show about how

(30:06):
much when the timing of things actuallyaffects everything in our own lives, but
everything from education to criminal justice,to job performance to team success, timing
matters, and Dan, just beforethe break, we were gonna touch on

(30:29):
like beginnings, midpoints, and endings, you kind of mentioned that every days
a has a rhythm, has apattern, kind of a rhythm, but
beginnings, midpoints and endings are alsoimportant. So if we could let's just
briefly touch on those. I knowthere's much more in your book, but
one thing about beginnings that intrigued me. Was you're saying that there's something called

(30:56):
the fresh start effect. Tell usa little bit about that. Yeah,
this is some really interesting research.It's actually it's actually one of the really
one of the most well known piecesof research in the broader science of timing.
It was done at University of Pennsylvaniaby Katie Milkman, Jason Reese,
and Hanks and Die. And whatthey found is that certain dates are in

(31:21):
our lives in the year operate asthis is the term that they use,
temporal landmarks. That is, theystand out from other dates, and these
temporal landmarks have a peculiar effect inour behavior. One thing that they do
is they get us to slow downand the way that a physical landmark would.
But what they also do is triggerthis really peculiar kind of mental accountant.
So what we do is that we, like a business opens up a

(31:45):
fresh ledger at a beginning of aquarter or beginning of a year. We
do that for ourselves. So wesay this is sort of power of New
Year's resolutions. We say, okay, old me never went to the gym
and ate fast food all the time, but knew me born a new On
January one, has a fresh ledgerwe're going to make a fresh start,
and New Year's Day ends up being, you know, the most well known

(32:07):
fresh start date. But what Milkman, Reese and I have found is that
other dates in our lives have thatkind of effect. So if we're thinking
about making changes in our behavior,we're more likely to do it and more
likely to succeed in if we startto behavior on a Monday rather than a
Thursday, if we do it onthe first of the month rather than the

(32:30):
seventeenth of the month, if wedo it for college students, they did
some research on college students in gymand visiting the gym the first day of
the semester rather than the thirty thirdday of the semester. Yeah, even
our birthdays, right can be birthdaysare Yeah, that's a great point actually,
because not all temporal land like youand I share the temporal landmark of

(32:57):
January one. You and I sharethe temporal landmark, say a Monday,
but each of us has personal temporallandmarks too. So you know, if
I start if I try to startsomething on the day after your birthday,
it's not going to do a lotmore. But if you start something on
the day after your birthday, it'sactually meaningful the day after your you know,
any any significant day like that.So so what this does is that

(33:21):
again it introduces this temporal aspect toour behavior and how we navigate our lives,
and so not all days of theyear our career equal, and being
selective about when we begin a changeproject can can actually you know, uprids
a little bit. Yeah, anotherway to leverage timing to our benefit.

(33:44):
And one of the other things aboutkind of those rhythms that we're talking about,
Dan, that I found really importantis that there are natural dips kind
of like the day again, youknow, just a day, we kind
of have a natural dip, butactually in a project, and I think

(34:06):
we've all experienced that too, justlike we you know, like we've all
experienced the afternoon slump. It's likein a project, it's like there is
kind of a natural slump or adown midpoint, and we can choose.
What you're saying is the research showsshows that we can choose whether that's a
slump or whether that's a spark totallyright. Yeah, So you know,

(34:32):
midpoints are again, at least midmidpoints are something that we're not really conscious
of they're not really visible. Butany enterprise that has the beginning and end,
by its very nature, has amidpoint. And so you see this
like in projects, for instance,and you begin a project team project at
work and it has a certain deadline, there's going to be a midpoint.
And what some researchers have found isis that that midpoint has a in team

(34:58):
projects, has a seeing effect.That the traditional view of how teams progressed
through a project was that they movedin this steady linear path from beginning to
end. If you look at howthe teams actually work and Kindi Gersek who
did this research, you know,videotape teams, in action audio tape teams,

(35:19):
and actions to find out what theywere actually doing. They found at
the beginning of project teams didn't dovery much at all. It was only
there, but there was a certainmoment in the project where they had a
sudden burst of activity where they theythrew off old ways of doing things that
they finally buckled down and in areally eerie way, that was almost always
at this midpoint. So midpoints canhave that effect. They can also to

(35:43):
stay bring us down. You seeother research about that but at some level,
if we're conscious of midpoints, wecan use them to wake up rather
than roll over. And one ofthe good ways to help us create that
spark is to imagine that we're alittle bit behind. There's some good research
from the National Basketball Association about halftimescores showing that teams that are typically teams

(36:06):
that are ahead at halftime are morelikely to win the game. But the
one except the exception to that isteams that are behind by one point are
actually more likely with it. Andso and there's other experimental evidence as well
showing that feeling like you're slightly behindcan be a big boost to your motivation
at the midpoint. So how wethink about midpoints makes a huge difference to

(36:30):
be aware of them, to usethem to wake up, as you said,
rather than to roll over. Andyou know, at the midpoint,
kind of imagine you're you're just alittle bit behind. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And and and what's interestingabout that feeling a little bit behind,
if we unpack it a little bit, is that if you and you see

(36:50):
this in other kinds of you knowthat particular the NBA research that I talked
about, which is done by JonahBerger, at Penn and Devin Pope at
the University of Chicago. That wasjust a massive analysis of data, so
that showed that correlation. There's otherexperimental research showing that feeling behind actually causes

(37:10):
us to exert greater effort in thesecond half of anything. And so because
you know, if we're behind,if we're really far behind, we tend
to give up. If we're reallyfar ahead, we can get complacent.
But if we're a little bit behind, there's something about that that is motivation
enhancing that allows us to kick harderduring that second half of the race.

(37:34):
Did you find anything related there,Dan about it's related to this about momentum,
like if somebody is moving in aparticular direction in terms of timing.
Was there any research that you turnedup on that. That's a really good
question, and I don't know ofany research on that. It wouldn't it

(37:59):
wouldn't surprise to me. The closestthing to that that I that I know
about is some research on this isfrom Theresa Mobul at Harvard Business School on
the importance of progress as a motivator, that that making progress is inherently motivating
and it can trigger a kind ofvirtuous circle, which is akin to your
momentum point, which is that youknow, you make progress one day,

(38:21):
you feel good, and so becauseyou feel good, you're more likely to
make progress the next day, whichmakes you feel good, which makes it
more likely to make progress, etcetera, et cetera. So I think
there is something to that. It'sonly Almabili's work on progress is the only
thing that rings a bell there.Yeah, she's a great researcher, and
it just strikes me, you knowthat there would be some interesting parallels with

(38:42):
you know, the team that scoresthe touchdown just before halftime or kicks that
field goal just before halftime. It'sit's related to timing in a way,
but it's also directional, right,you're moving in the right direction. Yeah,
that's interesting. I mean there's Imean, I mean, there's there's
so much research on so many differentthings. There is NFL research of the
NFL, you know, in Americanfootball that that show. Really it shows

(39:06):
us a lot about the important endingsand endings of the motivator that there are
that the minute. If you dividean NFL game by sixty one minute segments,
the most points by far, it'snot even close. Are scored in
the minute before the first halfpens.That's that's there's a hugely I don't remember
the exact figure, but its hugelydisproportionate number of points scored in that one

(39:28):
minute segment versus other one minute segments. Because something is something is coming to
an end. Yeah, it's veryinteresting. You know something coming to an
end and then also you know theurgency increasing it at the same time,
and you have you know, inthe book Quinn Dan, you talk about

(39:52):
endings really having important for us.They really affect our behavior in some key
ways. Maybe we could just touchon those. I think there were maybe
four different ways that that endings affectus. Sure, endings, You're exactly

(40:12):
right. Endings have a Endings havea that multiples effect on our behavior.
So one of the things they do, is I said before, is they
anarchize us. So they get usto kick harder. We see the finish
line, we kick harder. Oneof the things that endings also help us
encode that is they help us rememberevaluate and remember experiences and so so how

(40:35):
experiences end disproportionately shape how we laterevaluate them. Endings also help us edit
that when we get to the endof things we end up editing down to
the essentials. You see this inthe size and shape of friendship networks.
And then endings also help us elevatethat given a choice, human beings prefer
endings with rising sequences to declining sequences. And again, as with all these

(40:55):
things, Julian, what you want, you know, to use one of
your fair where you want to beconscious of this. You want to be
conscious of endings that that endings exertthis kind of pull on our behaviors and
a lot of you know, alot of times we moved through our our
life and our projects and our encounterswith others with not being fully awake to

(41:20):
the temporal aspect of it. Andif we are okay, endings you know,
as you know, the simplest wayto put is good endings are a
thing. Right, You got tothink of endings as a thing. And
if you do, you can Ithink you can make better decisions, design
better experiences for people. Yes,exactly. And one of the things I
want to highlight here Dan, justabout you and the way that you help

(41:45):
us understand these sometimes you know,really complex but important issues like timing,
like selling right, like what motivatesus you have, you have the gift,
the ability, the genius if youwill, to help us help make

(42:05):
up so much much research understandable.And so when you come up with right,
right, when you come up withthese you know four e's you know
for endings, that's brilliant, right. It helps us understand that that indies
help us energize and encode and editand elevate and the same thing that you

(42:27):
did in and drive about the differentmotivators. And so I just want to
honor that, uh Dan, becauseright because you take it right, You've
just taken so much research and andhelp us make sense about it with a
sense of it, and then youhelp us actually incorporate into our lives and
remember it because of the way thatyou write. And I really appreciate that.

(42:51):
Well, thank you, it's niceof you to say, Julian.
I appreciate it absolutely. Now we'vegot some news for everyone listening, uh
And I think it's is significant.It's about timing, of course, in
our conversation today, and that iswhen we're about to give somebody some bad
news and some good news. Whatorder do you think is the best?

(43:15):
I want everybody to think about it. What would you think the best order
to give someone both good news andbad news with the good news come first,
the bad news come first. I'mgoing to pitch it. I'm going
to pitch it to dany good becauseI know I know the answer, and

(43:35):
I know the answer because I've gotit. I got it wrong for most
of my life. Yeahs, whatI typically, what I typically did is
give the good news first to youknow, cushion the blow a little bit.
And what the research shows is that'sthe wrong way to do it.
That that most people, if youasked them, what do you want to
hear first the good news of thebad news? People overwhelmingly want to hear
the bad news first. Uh.And it goes to one of these these

(43:59):
effects of things, which is thatwe prefer endings that elevate again rising sequences
to declining sequences. It doesn't necessarilyhave to be happy endings in the kind
of sunny smiling way, but weprefer things to go up at the end
rather than go down. Yeah,the little little positive happy ending goes a
long way. Yeah, it reallydoes. And so if we are part

(44:24):
of a group or part of ateam, Dan, there are some key
ways that we can build these Uh, these learnings about timing into them.
For instance, if we're in aproject and we're a team leader, then
we could plan for that that kindof dip you know, that middle midpoint?

(44:47):
Absolutely right? And did you seeany did you see any examples of
teams that were aware of that andwe're actually using that to their benefit?
Almost none. Basically, I thinkit's one of those Yeah, I think
it remains I think it remains invisible. I think this cool notion of midpoints
is is barely visible to us.And so what I'm hoping is that some

(45:08):
of this research will shine a lighton it and people can make better decisions
as a result. Yes, becauseyou could. You could take you know,
just the beginnings, the midpoints,and the endings pieces of your research,
Dan, and really optimize, asyou said, a team project,
right, an experience for people ifyou're aware of those things. And I

(45:31):
think what you're saying is true,we're kind of peripherally a fair you know,
aware that you know, beginnings andendings are important, but we really
aren't leveraging them at the level wecould. Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely
right, And you've found some reallycool research too with how groups can as

(45:54):
you say, kind of synchronize,coordinate in time. And there's some key
pieces to that that I would lovefor us to just briefly touch on.
Okay, yeah, so go ahead, Oh no, so so yeah,
So if you look at things like, you know, some groups have to
synchronize in time. So I lookedat lunch deliverers, I looked at rowing

(46:17):
teams, I looked at choral groups, and there are some rules about synchronizing
and they tend to be you know, having a clear boss for group synchronization
actually is pretty pretty important. Sorowers have rowing teams have a cox,
and choral groups have a choral director. Having somebody nominally in charge so a

(46:38):
little you can build autonomy into thesystem, but you also need some degree
of hierarchy. It's not even somuch hierarchies as like one like one key
boss. Another factor is the importanceof belonging belonging. This fosters group synchronization
and group synchronizations. Fosters belonging.This is why you see groups that synchronize

(46:58):
well often have share rituals, sharedlanguage, that kind of thing. And
then the other thing that's I thinkreally intriguing is that, uh, there's
a very positive effect of group synchronization. Group synchronization makes us feel good,
and it makes us do good.And when we feel good and do good,
we synchronize better. And and it'sjust again, it's another one of

(47:19):
those virtuous circles. So if youlook at the research on choral singing,
it's just out of control. Imean, it's good for our physical health,
it's good for our mental health,it's good for people doing good for
others. Yeah, it kind ofreminded me. Dan. It's course of
course, related to your research onmotivation, right, and then how we
coordinate together is really interesting. Itkind of reminded me of blocks of birds,

(47:43):
you know that that they've got tohave a leader, but then they
sink to one another. And Ialways find that fascinating, you know,
the flocks of birds that have themurmurations. And right, it's just it's
just art, isn't it in action? Sure? Yep? So, Dan,
one really quick question, but Ithink important. What was your favorite

(48:06):
part of the research, the thingmaybe surprised you the most, or that
you enjoyed the most. I reallywas most taken by some of this research
on synchronization and particularly the effect thatsynchronization has on what are called pro social
behavior. So you put kids inplaying synchronous games afterwards, they're more likely

(48:27):
to collaborate, they're more likely tohelp the teacher, they're more likely to
be open to playing with kids whodon't look like them. I think there's
something really powerful. I haven't crieda nut on that one, but I
think there's something very powerful and profoundlyhuman about synchronization. And I found that
face in it because it's something trulynever never thought about. It never occurred
to me before. Yeah, Ithink that's powerful because when we're able to

(48:51):
co create with others and we getinto that rhythm like great teams do,
we all kind of feel that sharedflow. It's really powerful, and it's
kind of like a high, isn'tit. Absolutely? In fact, there
is a Sinker's high. There's arowers high, which is actually so interesting.

(49:13):
You have this when people row inteams. Even though rowing is enormously
painful, rowing and teams actually elevatepeople's pain thresholds, So it is a
high. Wow. Too bad,Too bad we can't tap into that when
we're running marathons right right, exactlyexactly, Dan, this has just been

(49:34):
so much fun as always. Iso appreciate you the great work that you
do, the research that you breakdown for us that we can apply to
our lives. Thank you so muchfor uh for coming on Conscious Shift and
sharing your wisdom. Thank you Julianefor having me. It's been a pleasure
as always as always, And thebook is When The Scientific Secrets of Perfect

(50:00):
Timing by Daniel pink Dan. Thanksso much, and we'll be right back
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