September 2, 2019 • 32 mins
With Facebook’s announcement that its own digital currency, Libra is coming in 2020, this type of asset is going to become much more common. If you’re ending your marriage, that means you need to get up to speed about divorce and cryptocurrency.
Cryptocurrency is often thought of as hard to trace, difficult to value and highly volatile. All that can spell trouble when you’re negotiating your divorce settlement.
So what exactly is cryptocurrency, who typically holds it and how can you find it?
Joining me for this Conversation About Divorce is Paul Sibenik with Cryptforensic Investigators who help lawyers and their clients going through divorce to track, trace, and recover non-disclosed or undeclared cryptocurrency through forensic accounting. Paul's website is https://cryptforensic.com
You'll find a synopsis of this Conversation at my blog: https://sincemydivorce.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-divorce-and-cryptocurrency
Photo by Austin Distel on Unsplash
Cryptocurrency is often thought of as hard to trace, difficult to value and highly volatile. All that can spell trouble when you’re negotiating your divorce settlement.
So what exactly is cryptocurrency, who typically holds it and how can you find it?
Joining me for this Conversation About Divorce is Paul Sibenik with Cryptforensic Investigators who help lawyers and their clients going through divorce to track, trace, and recover non-disclosed or undeclared cryptocurrency through forensic accounting. Paul's website is https://cryptforensic.com
You'll find a synopsis of this Conversation at my blog: https://sincemydivorce.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-divorce-and-cryptocurrency
Photo by Austin Distel on Unsplash
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Getting a divorce. Even thinking aboutgetting a divorce can be overwhelming, scary,
and sometimes exciting. Join divorce coachand mediator Mandy Walker for conversations about
divorce. The more you know,the easier it will be to make your
divorce healthier, less strustful, andto put it behind you. Here's Mandy
Welcome's conversations about divorce. I'm MandyWalker, and today we're talking about cryptocurrency
(00:27):
and divorce. If you've heard theword bitcoin, then you know something about
cryptocurrency. But Bitcoin is only oneof these currencies. There are many of
them, and Facebook recently announced it'sgoing to launch its own currency, Libra,
and so if that happens, thenthis type of a financial asset is
(00:50):
going to become a lot more mainstream, and with that, cryptocurrency is going
to be part of more and moredivorces. Since it's hard to trace,
it's my understanding. It's hard totrace, it's difficult to value, and
can disappear in an instant. Thatsounds like trouble. So what do you
need to know about cryptocurrency and divorce. Well, my guest today is an
(01:11):
expert in this area. He's PaulCybernic Paul is with crypt Forensic Investigators.
Welcome, Paul. Nice to behere. Many So, Paul, I'm
guessing the cryptocurrency is unfamiliar to lotsof my listeners, and I have a
very surface knowledge about it. SoI wondered if you could give us your
(01:34):
elevator explanation for what it is.Yes, it's it's a digital asset which
can be traded online. UM.It's these the details with regards to supply
and how and like everything it's it'sgoverned by code, so it's not governed
(01:57):
by a central bank or any centralentity. UM. It is governed by
by by code. And UH changescould be made that that code, but
only if there's a consensus UM interms of agreement. But what's really important
to know about cryptocurrencies is that,UM, they are non custodial in nature.
UM, so they would typically UMlike like the funds in a in
(02:24):
a bank account, you technically donot have funds in your bank account.
It's your bank. It's your bankthat holds your funds. And when you
own cryptocurrency, you really do ownthat cryptocurrency, just as if as if
you own gold in your pocket,is yours uh, And no one can
take it UM from you unless theysteal steal it from you. UM.
(02:46):
So yeah, it's a it's adigital asset UM that can be traded and
transferred to to anyone UM. Andit can be a little bit difficult to
trace UM just because there aren't identifierson there, specifically with regards to people's
names. There are just addresses,which is just like a long string of
(03:07):
numbers and letters. Leads some peopleto think about right. So when you
say UM, it's governed by acode, is that UM? Is that
something like a treaty or an understandingby some key players like who writes who,
who agrees to this code, whonegotiates it UM? So that that
(03:31):
depends on the asset in question.If we're talking about bitcoin specifically, UM,
there was an individual anonymous. Alot of times these individuals are are
anonymous, as was the case ofbitcoin. An individual by the pseudonym UH
situation. Akamoto UM put forward awhite paper which is basically just a proposal
(03:52):
for a forum for a currency UM. He initially was involved in the coding
of that project, and there havebeen many additions in terms of code and
many and many enhancements to that.Ever, since he left. He left
in I believe it was December twentyten or January twenty eleven, but he
(04:15):
kind of just disappeared and no one'sheard from them since. But because these
projects are decentralized in nature, ifsomeone were to leave, or if something
happens to a key person who's involvedin that, there are there and because
they're open source, anyone else canjust just hop in and make additions.
(04:36):
Okay, all right, So,um, how would how do you acquire
cryptocurrency? Do you actually go aheadand like buy it with your dollars or
yeah, so there are exchanges.Online exchanges typically are the most commonplace people
(04:56):
would acquire it. In many ways, these exchanges are very similar to four
X platforms or even a little bitlike if you have a discount brokerage that
you use online just where you buystocks, the interface will probably seem somewhat
similar to you. Yeah, youcan you would typically wire transfer funds to
(05:19):
bank accounts owned by these cryptocurrency exchanges, or you can some cases, you
can use a credit card, andpeople would typically purchase from an exchange,
but there are other ways. That'sjust the most common. And then if
I have holdings in cryptocurrency, CanI I can sell them or trade them
(05:40):
into get dollars back or do peopleactually accept cryptocurrencies like if I wanted to
buy a car or a boat orsomething. Yes, so yes, you
can trade it. You can tradeit back in for dollars. You can
trade it for other cryptocurrency assets.You can you can trade it for something
(06:01):
similar to something called a stable horn, which is basically what libra is doing.
If you want something more stable interms of trading it for goods and
services, Yes, that is possible. Um. Not all merchants except accept
that, obviously. That's one ofthe challenges with UM new emerging current currencies
(06:21):
in general is that yeah, likenon non major's currencies are not accepted,
so merchants typically want to have aquick fire away to be able to convert
the cryptocurrency that they would receive intotheir local currency. Um. But yes,
there are some car dealerships that willaccept cryptocurrency. Um. Um.
(06:43):
It's not super common yet, butit will probably be more common in the
future. Right. Wow. SoUM, what is the motivation then to
acquire cryptocurrency? It sounds like it'sit's a bit like you mentioned, um,
if you were buying your own stocks. It's a bit night making investment
in trying to get you you're bettingon those values going up. Um.
(07:06):
It also sounds like you could hidethat from the irs, you wouldn't get
taxed on it. Yes, yes, uh So there's a variety of reasons.
Um. The first is just umah speculation um you know um,
just like with uh uh just likewith the dot com boom or or things
like that. People. You know, people sometimes think cryptocurrencies are the way
(07:30):
of the future because they can betransferred so much quicker, so much cheaper,
lack of intermediaries, you can youdon't have to wake up wait a
week to transfer funds to you knowsomewhere in uh in Zimbabwe. It can
happen in seconds. Um. So, so people a lot of people do
do like to speculate on the price. Uh. The second uh and probably
perhaps the biggest, the biggest reasoncryptocurrencies. People invest in cryptocurrencies is as
(07:56):
a store of value. And um. Now that might sound a little bit
um odd given given the fluctuation value, but um, some people like to
get involved in cryptocurrency because they realizethat over time, government backed currencies,
which are sometimes referred to as asfiat currencies UM. People lose their money
(08:20):
through through through inflation of the moneysupply UM, so they see as to
see it as a form of taxation. And by having a cryptocurrency which has
a fixed supply UM where it cannotbe printed arbitrarily uh and thereby decreasing the
value UM, people see that asa better better store value because it can't
(08:41):
you know, a government cannot printit um um like just off of off
a whim. Now, of coursein the United States, you know it's
printed. But you know, ifyou hold your money in the US dollars
for a for a for a year, it's not going to decrease that much
come year too, But over fiftyyears, yeah, it will decrease considerably.
UM. Of course that's not nearlyas bad as countries like Venezuela,
(09:05):
but you know, people don't alwayslive in countries as as nice as you
know, where they have currencies asstable as as the United States. UM.
The third reason people sometimes invest incryptocurrency UM, I would say,
is if they if they do wantto um yeah, like I guess,
(09:26):
I guess hiding assets, or ifthey want to be able to uh really
own their own money and not beand not have um and not be subject
to getting permission from a bank.Um. I've personally had a lot of
banking problems myself. I know alot of other people have as well.
Where you know, banks freeze fundsarbitrarily and people are you know, sometimes
(09:48):
get sick of that and they wantto be able to to spend their money
when they want to spend it.Um. So um yeah, just having
having having being able to have pustodyof your own money along with in some
cases, yes, people do wantto to hide to hide it as well,
um, you know, whether it'sfrom the irs, whether it's uh
(10:09):
you know, um. I obviously, like we are, we do find
it happen in divorce cases, butI don't think it's too too common yet,
but it's probably going to be morecommon in the future. Okay,
So is there a profile of aperson who's most likely to hold cryptocurrency?
(10:30):
Yes, um, you know,usually you know, younger people who are
a little bit more technologically savvy tendto tend to do that. I know
in my own case, I wasnot a I've never been a developer or
coder, and I I initially thought, oh, this is something just for
you know, um, you know, people you know, cut computer nerves,
(10:52):
computer us things, things like that, and it's not really as as
technical as you might believe, butum yeah, it's you know, people
you do have to know how tobe able to use a computer. Um.
Um. So usually people who area little bit more technic, technic,
tech, technologically savvy. Um,people who are a little bit more
(11:15):
willing to risk things. Um.So, I guess it does have like
a demographic in terms of people whohave a large amount you know, it's
more often that they're white, male, under forty. But um, yeah,
you know, there's there's many,there's many people who hold these assets.
(11:37):
You know, in countries where theydon't have access to a stable currency,
they might not have a massive amountof it. But um, at
least in the United States and Canada. Yeah, people who are who are
younger, more often male, tendto have larger holdings in the cryptocrency.
Okay, So if I, um, if my spouse was fitted that profile
(12:01):
or had mentioned to me that theyat some point that they had some cryptocurrency
and I'm thinking of divorce, arethe steps that I should take now before
I talk to them? About divorcethat I could use later to prove it.
Yeah, so what you what youmight want to do is you might
want to ask them up front ifthey have any any you know, if
(12:24):
what they think about cryptocurrency, youknow, and then eventually you can get
on the path that they own anyif they if they track, if they
you know, if they'd used itbefore. Um. You know, you
don't really want to ask them,hey, how much currency do you hold?
Like people don't just like people don'twant to just close their bank account
balance. UM. So you knowyou want to see if you know,
(12:46):
with their level of knowledges with it, um and see and see if they
you know, see if they mighthaven't invested in that. Um I wouldn't.
Yeah, you can really only goso far. But um, yeah,
like what you can ultimately, whatyou can ultimately do and what ultimately
comes down to is is, uh, we would tend to look at bank
(13:07):
account statements and things like that tosee if they've really invested and where they've
invested. And uh. Um that'sthat's one thing that that that that can
be done. But um, ifI had access, say we had a
joint bank account, and what wouldthat what would transaction to cryptocurrency exchange look
(13:31):
like. Yeah, So if you'redealing with large amounts UM, it would
probably would not be done by creditcards. People who use credit cards to
buy cryptocurrencies UM tend to be tendto be invested in smaller amounts under a
thousand dollars, right, But you'dbe looking for outgoing wire chancefers would be
(13:52):
the main thing, Okay, butyou know it could also be it could
also be Uh, it could alsobe done through a UM uh you know,
through another bank account, or youknow, it could have been done
through through cash. It's possible totransfer UM to buy cryptocurrency in person.
In fact, I've I've sold cryptocurrencyin person to other people and they give
(14:13):
me cash. And that's one ofthe more anonymous ways of doing that.
So if if if for some reason, UM, there's you know, five
thousand dollars missing UM or that waswithdrawn or five thousand dollars that should have
gotten deposited, uh, and isn'tthere you know, that could be an
indication of that, right well,And so when I asked you before about
(14:35):
what's the motivation to acquire cryptocurrency UM, because you can get it in cash.
You could use it for money launchingtoo. Yeah, I wouldn't say
that's the main use for it.UM. I think in the past,
Um, you know, bitcoin hasa reputation. UM or I should say,
some people think it's it's you know, used for drugs. And indeed
(14:56):
that was one of the main usesU happ when something called the Silk Road
existed, which was a dark netmarket primarily for drugs and some other things.
But um, by by and large, the vast majority of transactions that
that occur are are legal. Um, it's predominantly used. Yes, there's
a store value, I would say, and uh in speculation and and just
(15:22):
because people are are fed up ora little bit fed up with the monetary
system. And uh, you know, government's always running definite government's always running
deficits and essentially stealing money. Right. So UM, it's it's about taking
control of your own of your ownmoney, being your own bank. Um.
And uh that that enhales responsibilities becausewhen you lose access to your cryptocurrency
(15:46):
funds, if you lose it andeven to that hack or something like that,
um, you don't get reimbursed.Um. You know, even if
it wasn't really your fault. Sothere's no FDIC insurance on this. Oh
no, no not yeah, soyeah, um, Paul, I have
(16:08):
lots more questions for you, butright now we're going to take a short
break. Okay, great, you'relistening to conversations about divorce, and today
we're talking about cryptocurrency and divorce.My guest is Paul Simnic with crypt Forensic
Investigators, and Paul, I amcurious, how did you get into this
(16:30):
line of work? Um? Well, initially I got involved in the cryptocurrency
space because I was just very interestedin it. I had banking issues and
I felt, um, you know, um, I've had a lot of
a lot of issues with all themiddleman and all the permission I need to
get to to transfer funds and movemoney and travel and all sorts of things
(16:55):
that got me interested in it,interested enough that I wanted to work for
some time in it. And thenI started doing and I just, uh,
you know, I've I've started workingfor a company in the space.
One of the things I did wassome pro detection and analytics for them,
um as part of as part ofmy as part of what I was doing,
I didn't comprise the majority of mytime there, but I eventually started
(17:17):
to get more more and more interestedwith um um you know, like analytics
and forensic analysis with this kind ofstuff. And the thing is the you
know, the information that we useis not proprietary, it's not um.
You know, you can learn todo forensic tracking yourself. There's no uh,
(17:37):
there's no barrier to entry. Thatmakes makes sense because we act as
public records. But it's you know, when you combined a certain amount of
knowledge with with those public records,you can figure out a lot more about
identity ownership, um, how fundsare moving from one from from some addresses
and wallets to others and um.Yeah. So all ultimately, I'm self
(18:00):
taught, as pretty much everyone inthose spaces. There's no real university courses
or anything like that that that teachpeople sufficiently about this space. Right now,
everyone really is self taught. Well, it seems like it's such an
emerging technology and an emerging field thatit would oh yeah, after any course
(18:22):
would be would be outward would beobsolete within months, you know. Yeah.
And Paul, for our listeners,could you give our listeners your website
address? Yeah, it's httpfs callinguh backsplash backslash crypto forensic dot com.
Uh p rypt f O r En sic dot com. That's great,
(18:48):
thank you so Um. Before thebreak, we were talking about how I
might go about seeing if my spousehad cryptocol currency before we were getting divorced.
But let's fast forward and say thedivorce is actually in full swing and
I'm assuming the almost every state inthe US requires financial disclosures by both parties
(19:14):
in the divorce. If you holdcryptocurrency, you are obligated to disclose that,
are you not? Yes, yes, you are, at least in
the United States. It's it's treatedas property in the United States. M
you know, different countries treated differently. But yes, you are obligated to
disclose that, and indeed you're requiredto disclose that when you submit your athneve
(19:38):
you on with your assets and liabilities. And so let's say I knew that
my spouse had cryptocurrency, and Igot their financial disclosure and it wasn't disclosed.
Um, what do I do then? How do I go back then
and try and improve that it existed? Oh? You know, how do
(20:02):
I go about and try and findit? Yeah? Is that when I
call you? Um? Yes,yes, Well the answer is me.
But UM, what you really wantto do is you really want to try
and get an idea of of youknow, how much you know, how
much is is that? Does thattake care? Because we deal with cases
where there's millions of dollars in uh, you know, unclaimed assets and cryptocurrency
(20:27):
UH, and people have you know, a large incentitive incentive to not to
want to report that if you know, in the event of a very bitter
divorce where uh, you know,the one spost doesn't really doesn't want the
other, they're supposed to get anymoney, UM and things like that.
That's not the majority of pass butUM, you want to make sure it's
it's you want to try to getan idea of you know, how much
(20:49):
unclaimed assets there are, because ifit's just five hundred or a thousand dollars
worth of cryptocurrency assets, it's it'snot going to be worth the time of
going through that. UM. Soyou know, ultimately you probably want to
be a little bit of investigation yourselfto see, UM, if funds are
you know, went went missing overthe years, if so when, UM,
(21:14):
if they if they went if theywent missing fairly recently, UM,
you know how much how much wentwent missing because typically UH, the earlier
someone invested in this in this assetclass, if they invested in twenty thirteen,
uh, their portfolio value has likelyincreased considerably more than if they invested
(21:34):
two or three years ago. UM. So you just want to get an
idea of you know how much UM, Yeah, like how much of how
much unclaim cryptocurrency asks there could be. Ultimately, what would need to happen
is if you think there's you knowa decent amount of unclaimed assets or or
(21:55):
that that were hidden and not properlyproperly disclosed. UM, you may want
to contact either contact the individual oryour your exposed directly just to see if
it was a simple misunderstanding or ifthey just they just forgot UM. If
you don't think that's the case,a better option is ultimately to to consult
(22:17):
the lawyer. UM. And that'sultimately what you would need to do.
UM. We do work with inconjunction with lawyers in order to be able
to track such hidden assets. UM. And if most lawyers wouldn't know at
this point, most lawyers wouldn't knowhow to track it. So they I
(22:38):
was working with a lawyer, They'regoing to contract with an expert on finding
it, like such as yourself.Yeah, so I'll tell you a bit
about how we work with with lawyers, because most lawyers that we work with
don't really know anything about cryptocurrency either. UM. So basically because wallet addresses
(23:02):
and UH and and what what areown? Our public addresses don't have identifiers
on them, we have to finda way to identify the owners of such
addresses UM through other means. Andthe main way we do that is by
working with cryptocurrency exchanges, because typicallyyou have to provide your identity in order
(23:22):
to UM work with that cryptocurrency exchangeand buy off of that platform. What
we would do is we'd work withlawyers in order to issue subpoenas to the
cryptocurrency exchanges that the individual dealt withUM and therefore we can find out But
once the subpoena has been issued UH, the exchange would turn over their trading
(23:44):
data, deposit and withdrawal data aswell. And from there from based on
their withdrawal data, we can deducelogically what what addresses that they own,
and we can tract to see howhow funds have moved if they've moved to
other changes um um. You know, if they've traded it for you know,
(24:07):
assets other than bitcoin, for example, some have gone up much higher
in value relative to Bitcoin, whereasothers have gone to zero. UM,
so we can see ultimately we canwe now have an identifier to to see,
oh, this address belongs to acertain individual. And because um,
(24:27):
it's it's a common misconception that blockchainsare difficult to trace, and that's not
necessarily true. It's just that theyare. UM. It's actually quite it's
actually quite transparent. It's just notum And but I think you need to
(24:51):
have some technical knowledge to be ableto do it. Almost certainly, almost
most of the most most certainly.Yeah, it's just it's it is quite
transparent. It's just because it's someoneanonymous, you know, people people associate
that pseudo pseudonymity, pseudonymity with notbeing transparent and trackful, and it is
(25:15):
very trackable. In fact, it'smuch more trafical than uh, you know,
existing financial assets. It's just itdoesn't have those identifiers and names on
them. So so it's it's likeit's it's um different than what we used
to UM. I want to goback when you talk about the currency exchanges
and being able to disubpoin to them. I'm assuming. I mean that would
(25:37):
apply if they're in the US.If they're outside the US, I would
think you're probably at a lot UM. So I have a couple of things
to say that. Um. Firstof all, a lot of a lot
of the major exchanges, you know, want to work with circulators, and
they want to work with people withan existing legal systems. They don't want
to get in trouble. UM.You know, ultimately, UM, you
(26:00):
know, it's in their incentive toto try and comply. Otherwise it's just
it's it's a headache for them.It's a headache for UM. You know.
You know, these these you know, the potentially the owners of these
cryptocurrency exchanges, uh, you know, can be banned from travel to the
United States things like that. ButI would say, okay, but but
but UM, I would say,also, um, people who fund with
(26:25):
US dollars typically would use actually aUS based exchange, and that's because a
lot of the other exchanges don't acceptUS dollars. UM. So most exchanges
which accept US dollars deposits are basedin the United States. And I cantilized
some of their names. They includecoin Base, they include Gemini, they
include I t bit that trucks.They're all US based and um, um,
(26:48):
you know, we haven't had issuesgetting subpoenas from or I say,
we haven't had any issues getting gettingtrading data, trading data handed over to
us from them. So, um, we're kind of getting close on time
here. But I have a bigarea that I want us to get to,
Paul, I want us to hearyour expertise. So let's say that
(27:11):
my soon to BX has disclosed thecryptocurrency. What is the best strategy for
dealing with that in divorce? Uh? Can you be a little bit more
specific? Likely? Well? Yes, yes, So, um, should
I be looking to take half ofthat? Should I be looking to um
(27:33):
establish a value as a certain dateand take equivalent assets? Yeah? So
this because the assets are volatile themselves. Um, you know, it wouldn't
necessarily be fair to to to toyou know, pag the value. Hey,
this is what the value was atthis date. And then if the
(27:55):
value to quire by fifty percent,you still expect to take fifty percent of
that of tional value and therefore theyhave no quip currency less left. You
know, it's it's such a volatileasset class that it wouldn't necessarily be be
fair to to take that UM.You know, there's no one correct way
when it comes to valuing UM.You know, like like like dealing with
(28:18):
this this type of asset class becauseyou're having to to set a value with
it. But generally you would somethingreasonable to do would be to say,
hey, you know, I wantto take possession of you know, fifty
percent of the assets or a custody. You can take your possession of fifty
percent of it UM and then Iwould get fifty percent of the liquidate the
value UM whatever that happens to beUM. That that way, because you
(28:44):
know, because these these discussions willtake some wat will take quite some time.
It's just not really fair to tryto set a value, uh,
you know, for something that's goingto change significantly over the next three to
six months. Right, So ifyou split the actual currency holding fifty fifty
or whatever percentage it is, thenyou're both bearing the performance risk and you
(29:08):
could both do better or you couldboth do well do worse. And then
you're saying, you know, Icould, I could take it, and
then if I really decide, Idon't like cryptocurrency. I don't know enough
about it to be able to towant it in my portfolio. I can
sell it and trade it in andthen that is up to me. Yeah.
Um, Ultimately, I'm not familiarwith how you know, with with
(29:32):
the laws in all in all jurisdictions. So again it's a good idea to
consult it, consult the lawyer.But the same as applies with you know,
other other assets in avorce is thatyou would want to try and you
know, put a value on it. Um. And if you're not comfortable
dealing with cryptocurrency yourself, it's possibleyou may be able to get the supposed
(29:52):
to to to to liquidate a portionof that uh or you based on the
life price at that exact time.You don't really want to set a price
in advance or try to backdate somethingsix months. Um, it's just not
fair many cases to do that.Um. There are custodians that can that
can offer that type of service aswell. UM, it's not one that
(30:15):
we offer UM. But um UMYeah, ultimately you'd uh and and of
course you know you you would wantto try and make sure that UM,
you do believe all the cryptocurrency holdingsare are disclosed. Um, if you
believe, you know, the exposhas you know, tens of millions and
they've maybe disclosed one hundred thousand worth, you know, Um, you know
(30:37):
there's obviously a significant amount of roomthere still, so you never really know
when all you know what where whereall the asses are. If that makes
sense. Well, Poul, we'reup on time today. I just want
to say thank you so much forjoining us. This is a fascinating topic
and I think we're going to seebe seeing a lot more about cryptocurrencies and
divorce. I agree, so listeners, my guest today is Paul Sibnic with
(31:03):
crypt Forensic Investigators. Paul's website iscryptforensic dot com. Do check it out,
especially if you if you hold cryptocurrenciesor you think that you're soon to
be x well, it does tome. It's a whole other world.
If you think or you know thatyour spouse has holdings in cryptocurrencies, you're
(31:25):
going to want to bring in anexpert or a professional who is familiar with
it, whether you're planning for fulllegal representation or an ala carte consults.
When you're interviewing the attorney, you'llwant to ask them about their experience dealing
with this. As we talked aboutit might be hard to find somebody with
the experience, and in which caseyou're going to want to consult someone like
(31:45):
Paul Sibnic, my guest, doit sooner rather than later. You can
call me a cynic. I preferto be called a realist, but you're
soon to be X maybe banking onyour ignorance and is going to cost you.
Thank you for listening today. Ifyou hop over to my blog since
my Divorce dot com, you'll finda synopsis of this conversation, and you
(32:07):
can follow me at Since my Divorceon Twitter and on Facebook. And I
hope you'll join us again next timefor more conversations about divorce
Getting a divorce. Even thinking aboutgetting a divorce can be overwhelming, scary,
and sometimes exciting. Join divorce coachand mediator Mandy Walker for conversations about
divorce. The more you know,the easier it will be to make your
divorce healthier, less strustful, andto put it behind you. Here's Mandy
Welcome's conversations about divorce. I'm MandyWalker, and today we're talking about cryptocurrency
(00:27):
and divorce. If you've heard theword bitcoin, then you know something about
cryptocurrency. But Bitcoin is only oneof these currencies. There are many of
them, and Facebook recently announced it'sgoing to launch its own currency, Libra,
and so if that happens, thenthis type of a financial asset is
(00:50):
going to become a lot more mainstream, and with that, cryptocurrency is going
to be part of more and moredivorces. Since it's hard to trace,
it's my understanding. It's hard totrace, it's difficult to value, and
can disappear in an instant. Thatsounds like trouble. So what do you
need to know about cryptocurrency and divorce. Well, my guest today is an
(01:11):
expert in this area. He's PaulCybernic Paul is with crypt Forensic Investigators.
Welcome, Paul. Nice to behere. Many So, Paul, I'm
guessing the cryptocurrency is unfamiliar to lotsof my listeners, and I have a
very surface knowledge about it. SoI wondered if you could give us your
(01:34):
elevator explanation for what it is.Yes, it's it's a digital asset which
can be traded online. UM.It's these the details with regards to supply
and how and like everything it's it'sgoverned by code, so it's not governed
(01:57):
by a central bank or any centralentity. UM. It is governed by
by by code. And UH changescould be made that that code, but
only if there's a consensus UM interms of agreement. But what's really important
to know about cryptocurrencies is that,UM, they are non custodial in nature.
UM, so they would typically UMlike like the funds in a in
(02:24):
a bank account, you technically donot have funds in your bank account.
It's your bank. It's your bankthat holds your funds. And when you
own cryptocurrency, you really do ownthat cryptocurrency, just as if as if
you own gold in your pocket,is yours uh, And no one can
take it UM from you unless theysteal steal it from you. UM.
(02:46):
So yeah, it's a it's adigital asset UM that can be traded and
transferred to to anyone UM. Andit can be a little bit difficult to
trace UM just because there aren't identifierson there, specifically with regards to people's
names. There are just addresses,which is just like a long string of
(03:07):
numbers and letters. Leads some peopleto think about right. So when you
say UM, it's governed by acode, is that UM? Is that
something like a treaty or an understandingby some key players like who writes who,
who agrees to this code, whonegotiates it UM? So that that
(03:31):
depends on the asset in question.If we're talking about bitcoin specifically, UM,
there was an individual anonymous. Alot of times these individuals are are
anonymous, as was the case ofbitcoin. An individual by the pseudonym UH
situation. Akamoto UM put forward awhite paper which is basically just a proposal
(03:52):
for a forum for a currency UM. He initially was involved in the coding
of that project, and there havebeen many additions in terms of code and
many and many enhancements to that.Ever, since he left. He left
in I believe it was December twentyten or January twenty eleven, but he
(04:15):
kind of just disappeared and no one'sheard from them since. But because these
projects are decentralized in nature, ifsomeone were to leave, or if something
happens to a key person who's involvedin that, there are there and because
they're open source, anyone else canjust just hop in and make additions.
(04:36):
Okay, all right, So,um, how would how do you acquire
cryptocurrency? Do you actually go aheadand like buy it with your dollars or
yeah, so there are exchanges.Online exchanges typically are the most commonplace people
(04:56):
would acquire it. In many ways, these exchanges are very similar to four
X platforms or even a little bitlike if you have a discount brokerage that
you use online just where you buystocks, the interface will probably seem somewhat
similar to you. Yeah, youcan you would typically wire transfer funds to
(05:19):
bank accounts owned by these cryptocurrency exchanges, or you can some cases, you
can use a credit card, andpeople would typically purchase from an exchange,
but there are other ways. That'sjust the most common. And then if
I have holdings in cryptocurrency, CanI I can sell them or trade them
(05:40):
into get dollars back or do peopleactually accept cryptocurrencies like if I wanted to
buy a car or a boat orsomething. Yes, so yes, you
can trade it. You can tradeit back in for dollars. You can
trade it for other cryptocurrency assets.You can you can trade it for something
(06:01):
similar to something called a stable horn, which is basically what libra is doing.
If you want something more stable interms of trading it for goods and
services, Yes, that is possible. Um. Not all merchants except accept
that, obviously. That's one ofthe challenges with UM new emerging current currencies
(06:21):
in general is that yeah, likenon non major's currencies are not accepted,
so merchants typically want to have aquick fire away to be able to convert
the cryptocurrency that they would receive intotheir local currency. Um. But yes,
there are some car dealerships that willaccept cryptocurrency. Um. Um.
(06:43):
It's not super common yet, butit will probably be more common in the
future. Right. Wow. SoUM, what is the motivation then to
acquire cryptocurrency? It sounds like it'sit's a bit like you mentioned, um,
if you were buying your own stocks. It's a bit night making investment
in trying to get you you're bettingon those values going up. Um.
(07:06):
It also sounds like you could hidethat from the irs, you wouldn't get
taxed on it. Yes, yes, uh So there's a variety of reasons.
Um. The first is just umah speculation um you know um,
just like with uh uh just likewith the dot com boom or or things
like that. People. You know, people sometimes think cryptocurrencies are the way
(07:30):
of the future because they can betransferred so much quicker, so much cheaper,
lack of intermediaries, you can youdon't have to wake up wait a
week to transfer funds to you knowsomewhere in uh in Zimbabwe. It can
happen in seconds. Um. So, so people a lot of people do
do like to speculate on the price. Uh. The second uh and probably
perhaps the biggest, the biggest reasoncryptocurrencies. People invest in cryptocurrencies is as
(07:56):
a store of value. And um. Now that might sound a little bit
um odd given given the fluctuation value, but um, some people like to
get involved in cryptocurrency because they realizethat over time, government backed currencies,
which are sometimes referred to as asfiat currencies UM. People lose their money
(08:20):
through through through inflation of the moneysupply UM, so they see as to
see it as a form of taxation. And by having a cryptocurrency which has
a fixed supply UM where it cannotbe printed arbitrarily uh and thereby decreasing the
value UM, people see that asa better better store value because it can't
(08:41):
you know, a government cannot printit um um like just off of off
a whim. Now, of coursein the United States, you know it's
printed. But you know, ifyou hold your money in the US dollars
for a for a for a year, it's not going to decrease that much
come year too, But over fiftyyears, yeah, it will decrease considerably.
UM. Of course that's not nearlyas bad as countries like Venezuela,
(09:05):
but you know, people don't alwayslive in countries as as nice as you
know, where they have currencies asstable as as the United States. UM.
The third reason people sometimes invest incryptocurrency UM, I would say,
is if they if they do wantto um yeah, like I guess,
(09:26):
I guess hiding assets, or ifthey want to be able to uh really
own their own money and not beand not have um and not be subject
to getting permission from a bank.Um. I've personally had a lot of
banking problems myself. I know alot of other people have as well.
Where you know, banks freeze fundsarbitrarily and people are you know, sometimes
(09:48):
get sick of that and they wantto be able to to spend their money
when they want to spend it.Um. So um yeah, just having
having having being able to have pustodyof your own money along with in some
cases, yes, people do wantto to hide to hide it as well,
um, you know, whether it'sfrom the irs, whether it's uh
(10:09):
you know, um. I obviously, like we are, we do find
it happen in divorce cases, butI don't think it's too too common yet,
but it's probably going to be morecommon in the future. Okay,
So is there a profile of aperson who's most likely to hold cryptocurrency?
(10:30):
Yes, um, you know,usually you know, younger people who are
a little bit more technologically savvy tendto tend to do that. I know
in my own case, I wasnot a I've never been a developer or
coder, and I I initially thought, oh, this is something just for
you know, um, you know, people you know, cut computer nerves,
(10:52):
computer us things, things like that, and it's not really as as
technical as you might believe, butum yeah, it's you know, people
you do have to know how tobe able to use a computer. Um.
Um. So usually people who area little bit more technic, technic,
tech, technologically savvy. Um,people who are a little bit more
(11:15):
willing to risk things. Um.So, I guess it does have like
a demographic in terms of people whohave a large amount you know, it's
more often that they're white, male, under forty. But um, yeah,
you know, there's there's many,there's many people who hold these assets.
(11:37):
You know, in countries where theydon't have access to a stable currency,
they might not have a massive amountof it. But um, at
least in the United States and Canada. Yeah, people who are who are
younger, more often male, tendto have larger holdings in the cryptocrency.
Okay, So if I, um, if my spouse was fitted that profile
(12:01):
or had mentioned to me that theyat some point that they had some cryptocurrency
and I'm thinking of divorce, arethe steps that I should take now before
I talk to them? About divorcethat I could use later to prove it.
Yeah, so what you what youmight want to do is you might
want to ask them up front ifthey have any any you know, if
(12:24):
what they think about cryptocurrency, youknow, and then eventually you can get
on the path that they own anyif they if they track, if they
you know, if they'd used itbefore. Um. You know, you
don't really want to ask them,hey, how much currency do you hold?
Like people don't just like people don'twant to just close their bank account
balance. UM. So you knowyou want to see if you know,
(12:46):
with their level of knowledges with it, um and see and see if they
you know, see if they mighthaven't invested in that. Um I wouldn't.
Yeah, you can really only goso far. But um, yeah,
like what you can ultimately, whatyou can ultimately do and what ultimately
comes down to is is, uh, we would tend to look at bank
(13:07):
account statements and things like that tosee if they've really invested and where they've
invested. And uh. Um that'sthat's one thing that that that that can
be done. But um, ifI had access, say we had a
joint bank account, and what wouldthat what would transaction to cryptocurrency exchange look
(13:31):
like. Yeah, So if you'redealing with large amounts UM, it would
probably would not be done by creditcards. People who use credit cards to
buy cryptocurrencies UM tend to be tendto be invested in smaller amounts under a
thousand dollars, right, But you'dbe looking for outgoing wire chancefers would be
(13:52):
the main thing, Okay, butyou know it could also be it could
also be Uh, it could alsobe done through a UM uh you know,
through another bank account, or youknow, it could have been done
through through cash. It's possible totransfer UM to buy cryptocurrency in person.
In fact, I've I've sold cryptocurrencyin person to other people and they give
(14:13):
me cash. And that's one ofthe more anonymous ways of doing that.
So if if if for some reason, UM, there's you know, five
thousand dollars missing UM or that waswithdrawn or five thousand dollars that should have
gotten deposited, uh, and isn'tthere you know, that could be an
indication of that, right well,And so when I asked you before about
(14:35):
what's the motivation to acquire cryptocurrency UM, because you can get it in cash.
You could use it for money launchingtoo. Yeah, I wouldn't say
that's the main use for it.UM. I think in the past,
Um, you know, bitcoin hasa reputation. UM or I should say,
some people think it's it's you know, used for drugs. And indeed
(14:56):
that was one of the main usesU happ when something called the Silk Road
existed, which was a dark netmarket primarily for drugs and some other things.
But um, by by and large, the vast majority of transactions that
that occur are are legal. Um, it's predominantly used. Yes, there's
a store value, I would say, and uh in speculation and and just
(15:22):
because people are are fed up ora little bit fed up with the monetary
system. And uh, you know, government's always running definite government's always running
deficits and essentially stealing money. Right. So UM, it's it's about taking
control of your own of your ownmoney, being your own bank. Um.
And uh that that enhales responsibilities becausewhen you lose access to your cryptocurrency
(15:46):
funds, if you lose it andeven to that hack or something like that,
um, you don't get reimbursed.Um. You know, even if
it wasn't really your fault. Sothere's no FDIC insurance on this. Oh
no, no not yeah, soyeah, um, Paul, I have
(16:08):
lots more questions for you, butright now we're going to take a short
break. Okay, great, you'relistening to conversations about divorce, and today
we're talking about cryptocurrency and divorce.My guest is Paul Simnic with crypt Forensic
Investigators, and Paul, I amcurious, how did you get into this
(16:30):
line of work? Um? Well, initially I got involved in the cryptocurrency
space because I was just very interestedin it. I had banking issues and
I felt, um, you know, um, I've had a lot of
a lot of issues with all themiddleman and all the permission I need to
get to to transfer funds and movemoney and travel and all sorts of things
(16:55):
that got me interested in it,interested enough that I wanted to work for
some time in it. And thenI started doing and I just, uh,
you know, I've I've started workingfor a company in the space.
One of the things I did wassome pro detection and analytics for them,
um as part of as part ofmy as part of what I was doing,
I didn't comprise the majority of mytime there, but I eventually started
(17:17):
to get more more and more interestedwith um um you know, like analytics
and forensic analysis with this kind ofstuff. And the thing is the you
know, the information that we useis not proprietary, it's not um.
You know, you can learn todo forensic tracking yourself. There's no uh,
(17:37):
there's no barrier to entry. Thatmakes makes sense because we act as
public records. But it's you know, when you combined a certain amount of
knowledge with with those public records,you can figure out a lot more about
identity ownership, um, how fundsare moving from one from from some addresses
and wallets to others and um.Yeah. So all ultimately, I'm self
(18:00):
taught, as pretty much everyone inthose spaces. There's no real university courses
or anything like that that that teachpeople sufficiently about this space. Right now,
everyone really is self taught. Well, it seems like it's such an
emerging technology and an emerging field thatit would oh yeah, after any course
(18:22):
would be would be outward would beobsolete within months, you know. Yeah.
And Paul, for our listeners,could you give our listeners your website
address? Yeah, it's httpfs callinguh backsplash backslash crypto forensic dot com.
Uh p rypt f O r En sic dot com. That's great,
(18:48):
thank you so Um. Before thebreak, we were talking about how I
might go about seeing if my spousehad cryptocol currency before we were getting divorced.
But let's fast forward and say thedivorce is actually in full swing and
I'm assuming the almost every state inthe US requires financial disclosures by both parties
(19:14):
in the divorce. If you holdcryptocurrency, you are obligated to disclose that,
are you not? Yes, yes, you are, at least in
the United States. It's it's treatedas property in the United States. M
you know, different countries treated differently. But yes, you are obligated to
disclose that, and indeed you're requiredto disclose that when you submit your athneve
(19:38):
you on with your assets and liabilities. And so let's say I knew that
my spouse had cryptocurrency, and Igot their financial disclosure and it wasn't disclosed.
Um, what do I do then? How do I go back then
and try and improve that it existed? Oh? You know, how do
(20:02):
I go about and try and findit? Yeah? Is that when I
call you? Um? Yes,yes, Well the answer is me.
But UM, what you really wantto do is you really want to try
and get an idea of of youknow, how much you know, how
much is is that? Does thattake care? Because we deal with cases
where there's millions of dollars in uh, you know, unclaimed assets and cryptocurrency
(20:27):
UH, and people have you know, a large incentitive incentive to not to
want to report that if you know, in the event of a very bitter
divorce where uh, you know,the one spost doesn't really doesn't want the
other, they're supposed to get anymoney, UM and things like that.
That's not the majority of pass butUM, you want to make sure it's
it's you want to try to getan idea of you know, how much
(20:49):
unclaimed assets there are, because ifit's just five hundred or a thousand dollars
worth of cryptocurrency assets, it's it'snot going to be worth the time of
going through that. UM. Soyou know, ultimately you probably want to
be a little bit of investigation yourselfto see, UM, if funds are
you know, went went missing overthe years, if so when, UM,
(21:14):
if they if they went if theywent missing fairly recently, UM,
you know how much how much wentwent missing because typically UH, the earlier
someone invested in this in this assetclass, if they invested in twenty thirteen,
uh, their portfolio value has likelyincreased considerably more than if they invested
(21:34):
two or three years ago. UM. So you just want to get an
idea of you know how much UM, Yeah, like how much of how
much unclaim cryptocurrency asks there could be. Ultimately, what would need to happen
is if you think there's you knowa decent amount of unclaimed assets or or
(21:55):
that that were hidden and not properlyproperly disclosed. UM, you may want
to contact either contact the individual oryour your exposed directly just to see if
it was a simple misunderstanding or ifthey just they just forgot UM. If
you don't think that's the case,a better option is ultimately to to consult
(22:17):
the lawyer. UM. And that'sultimately what you would need to do.
UM. We do work with inconjunction with lawyers in order to be able
to track such hidden assets. UM. And if most lawyers wouldn't know at
this point, most lawyers wouldn't knowhow to track it. So they I
(22:38):
was working with a lawyer, They'regoing to contract with an expert on finding
it, like such as yourself.Yeah, so I'll tell you a bit
about how we work with with lawyers, because most lawyers that we work with
don't really know anything about cryptocurrency either. UM. So basically because wallet addresses
(23:02):
and UH and and what what areown? Our public addresses don't have identifiers
on them, we have to finda way to identify the owners of such
addresses UM through other means. Andthe main way we do that is by
working with cryptocurrency exchanges, because typicallyyou have to provide your identity in order
(23:22):
to UM work with that cryptocurrency exchangeand buy off of that platform. What
we would do is we'd work withlawyers in order to issue subpoenas to the
cryptocurrency exchanges that the individual dealt withUM and therefore we can find out But
once the subpoena has been issued UH, the exchange would turn over their trading
(23:44):
data, deposit and withdrawal data aswell. And from there from based on
their withdrawal data, we can deducelogically what what addresses that they own,
and we can tract to see howhow funds have moved if they've moved to
other changes um um. You know, if they've traded it for you know,
(24:07):
assets other than bitcoin, for example, some have gone up much higher
in value relative to Bitcoin, whereasothers have gone to zero. UM,
so we can see ultimately we canwe now have an identifier to to see,
oh, this address belongs to acertain individual. And because um,
(24:27):
it's it's a common misconception that blockchainsare difficult to trace, and that's not
necessarily true. It's just that theyare. UM. It's actually quite it's
actually quite transparent. It's just notum And but I think you need to
(24:51):
have some technical knowledge to be ableto do it. Almost certainly, almost
most of the most most certainly.Yeah, it's just it's it is quite
transparent. It's just because it's someoneanonymous, you know, people people associate
that pseudo pseudonymity, pseudonymity with notbeing transparent and trackful, and it is
(25:15):
very trackable. In fact, it'smuch more trafical than uh, you know,
existing financial assets. It's just itdoesn't have those identifiers and names on
them. So so it's it's likeit's it's um different than what we used
to UM. I want to goback when you talk about the currency exchanges
and being able to disubpoin to them. I'm assuming. I mean that would
(25:37):
apply if they're in the US.If they're outside the US, I would
think you're probably at a lot UM. So I have a couple of things
to say that. Um. Firstof all, a lot of a lot
of the major exchanges, you know, want to work with circulators, and
they want to work with people withan existing legal systems. They don't want
to get in trouble. UM.You know, ultimately, UM, you
(26:00):
know, it's in their incentive toto try and comply. Otherwise it's just
it's it's a headache for them.It's a headache for UM. You know.
You know, these these you know, the potentially the owners of these
cryptocurrency exchanges, uh, you know, can be banned from travel to the
United States things like that. ButI would say, okay, but but
but UM, I would say,also, um, people who fund with
(26:25):
US dollars typically would use actually aUS based exchange, and that's because a
lot of the other exchanges don't acceptUS dollars. UM. So most exchanges
which accept US dollars deposits are basedin the United States. And I cantilized
some of their names. They includecoin Base, they include Gemini, they
include I t bit that trucks.They're all US based and um, um,
(26:48):
you know, we haven't had issuesgetting subpoenas from or I say,
we haven't had any issues getting gettingtrading data, trading data handed over to
us from them. So, um, we're kind of getting close on time
here. But I have a bigarea that I want us to get to,
Paul, I want us to hearyour expertise. So let's say that
(27:11):
my soon to BX has disclosed thecryptocurrency. What is the best strategy for
dealing with that in divorce? Uh? Can you be a little bit more
specific? Likely? Well? Yes, yes, So, um, should
I be looking to take half ofthat? Should I be looking to um
(27:33):
establish a value as a certain dateand take equivalent assets? Yeah? So
this because the assets are volatile themselves. Um, you know, it wouldn't
necessarily be fair to to to toyou know, pag the value. Hey,
this is what the value was atthis date. And then if the
(27:55):
value to quire by fifty percent,you still expect to take fifty percent of
that of tional value and therefore theyhave no quip currency less left. You
know, it's it's such a volatileasset class that it wouldn't necessarily be be
fair to to take that UM.You know, there's no one correct way
when it comes to valuing UM.You know, like like like dealing with
(28:18):
this this type of asset class becauseyou're having to to set a value with
it. But generally you would somethingreasonable to do would be to say,
hey, you know, I wantto take possession of you know, fifty
percent of the assets or a custody. You can take your possession of fifty
percent of it UM and then Iwould get fifty percent of the liquidate the
value UM whatever that happens to beUM. That that way, because you
(28:44):
know, because these these discussions willtake some wat will take quite some time.
It's just not really fair to tryto set a value, uh,
you know, for something that's goingto change significantly over the next three to
six months. Right, So ifyou split the actual currency holding fifty fifty
or whatever percentage it is, thenyou're both bearing the performance risk and you
(29:08):
could both do better or you couldboth do well do worse. And then
you're saying, you know, Icould, I could take it, and
then if I really decide, Idon't like cryptocurrency. I don't know enough
about it to be able to towant it in my portfolio. I can
sell it and trade it in andthen that is up to me. Yeah.
Um, Ultimately, I'm not familiarwith how you know, with with
(29:32):
the laws in all in all jurisdictions. So again it's a good idea to
consult it, consult the lawyer.But the same as applies with you know,
other other assets in avorce is thatyou would want to try and you
know, put a value on it. Um. And if you're not comfortable
dealing with cryptocurrency yourself, it's possibleyou may be able to get the supposed
(29:52):
to to to to liquidate a portionof that uh or you based on the
life price at that exact time.You don't really want to set a price
in advance or try to backdate somethingsix months. Um, it's just not
fair many cases to do that.Um. There are custodians that can that
can offer that type of service aswell. UM, it's not one that
(30:15):
we offer UM. But um UMYeah, ultimately you'd uh and and of
course you know you you would wantto try and make sure that UM,
you do believe all the cryptocurrency holdingsare are disclosed. Um, if you
believe, you know, the exposhas you know, tens of millions and
they've maybe disclosed one hundred thousand worth, you know, Um, you know
(30:37):
there's obviously a significant amount of roomthere still, so you never really know
when all you know what where whereall the asses are. If that makes
sense. Well, Poul, we'reup on time today. I just want
to say thank you so much forjoining us. This is a fascinating topic
and I think we're going to seebe seeing a lot more about cryptocurrencies and
divorce. I agree, so listeners, my guest today is Paul Sibnic with
(31:03):
crypt Forensic Investigators. Paul's website iscryptforensic dot com. Do check it out,
especially if you if you hold cryptocurrenciesor you think that you're soon to
be x well, it does tome. It's a whole other world.
If you think or you know thatyour spouse has holdings in cryptocurrencies, you're
(31:25):
going to want to bring in anexpert or a professional who is familiar with
it, whether you're planning for fulllegal representation or an ala carte consults.
When you're interviewing the attorney, you'llwant to ask them about their experience dealing
with this. As we talked aboutit might be hard to find somebody with
the experience, and in which caseyou're going to want to consult someone like
(31:45):
Paul Sibnic, my guest, doit sooner rather than later. You can
call me a cynic. I preferto be called a realist, but you're
soon to be X maybe banking onyour ignorance and is going to cost you.
Thank you for listening today. Ifyou hop over to my blog since
my Divorce dot com, you'll finda synopsis of this conversation, and you
(32:07):
can follow me at Since my Divorceon Twitter and on Facebook. And I
hope you'll join us again next timefor more conversations about divorce
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