October 21, 2019 • 37 mins
More and more people are filing for divorce themselves, without lawyers. But most people do need legal advice on at least some aspects of their divorce. And, sometimes, couples can’t agree, and the divorce turns into a fully contested, litigated divorce. So how do you find the right divorce attorney for you?
The challenge is often knowing where to start. You’re unfamiliar with the legal system in general and with domestic relations, in particular.
You’re overwhelmed by the end of your marriage and don’t know enough about parenting after divorce or divorce financials to know if something is an issue or an obstacle.
And, you’ve had little experience dealing with attorneys so it’s hard to know who’s going to do a good job or even what is a good job!
You ask your friends, family and coworkers for referrals but that may not be a great choice. Your situation is likely different from theirs. What worked or didn’t work for them will be different for you.
What you need to do is make an informed, well-researched decision. How you do that is the topic for this Conversations About Divorce. Joining me are Kelly Frawley and Emily Pollock, New York-based matrimonial and family law attorneys and partners at Kasowitz Benson Torres LLP (https://kasowitz.com).
You'll find a synopsis of the show at my blog: https://sincemydivorce.com/how-to-find-the-right-divorce-attorney-for-you
The challenge is often knowing where to start. You’re unfamiliar with the legal system in general and with domestic relations, in particular.
You’re overwhelmed by the end of your marriage and don’t know enough about parenting after divorce or divorce financials to know if something is an issue or an obstacle.
And, you’ve had little experience dealing with attorneys so it’s hard to know who’s going to do a good job or even what is a good job!
You ask your friends, family and coworkers for referrals but that may not be a great choice. Your situation is likely different from theirs. What worked or didn’t work for them will be different for you.
What you need to do is make an informed, well-researched decision. How you do that is the topic for this Conversations About Divorce. Joining me are Kelly Frawley and Emily Pollock, New York-based matrimonial and family law attorneys and partners at Kasowitz Benson Torres LLP (https://kasowitz.com).
You'll find a synopsis of the show at my blog: https://sincemydivorce.com/how-to-find-the-right-divorce-attorney-for-you
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Getting a divorce. Even thinking aboutgetting a divorce can be overwhelming, scary,
and sometimes exciting. Join divorce coachand mediator Mandy Walker for conversations about
divorce. The more you know,the easier it will be to make your
divorce healthier, less trustful, andto put it behind you. Here's Mandy.
(00:23):
Welcome to conversations about divorce. I'mMandy Walker, and today we're talking
about finding the right divorce at Honeyfor You. Now more and more people
are filing for divorce themselves without attorneys, but that doesn't mean they aren't getting
legal advice, and in my opinion, most people do need legal advice on
at least some aspect of their situationand form a pro say divorce may turn
(00:47):
into a fully contested divorce with atrial. The challenge for most people is
that in choosing a divorce attorney isknowing where to start. You're unfamiliar with
the legal system in general and withdomestic relations in particular. You're overwhelmed by
the end of your marriage and don'tknow enough about parenting after divorce or divorce
financials to know if something is anissue or an obstacle, and you've had
(01:11):
little experience dealing with attorneys, soit's hard to know who's going to do
a good job, or even whatis a good job. You ask your
friends and families and co workers whothey used, and that's a problem because
it's not making an informed, wellresearch decision. So what do you do
well? My guests today are KellyFrawley and Emily Pollock, new York based
(01:36):
matrimonial and family law attorneys and partnersat Kasselwitz, Benson and Torres. And
Emily and Kelly are here to tellus help answer all of those questions.
Welcome, thank you, Mandy,happy to be here. This is Kelly,
and this is Emily. I'm alsohappy to be here. Great.
I thought if we could just startoff with a very brief overview the different
(02:00):
ways of working with attorneys, becausethen we can make sure we get the
terminology right and our listeners can followalong. So I've got a few different
ways. Pro say, which Imentioned in the introduction, means that you
don't have an attorney representing you,and you're if you go to court,
(02:20):
you're doing it totally on your own. That's right. And then I don't
know about New York, in Coloradoor elsewhere I've heard about there's terms where
you can get a consult on anas needed basis. It's good for very
specific, well defined issues. Peoplemight refer to it as unbundled ad hoc
(02:43):
ala carte. Well, this isKelly. You know, I have to
say, I'm not sure. InEmily chime in here, I don't know
if ethically we're actually permitted to dothat in the city. I know they're
in the reading, and I'm hesitatingwith that. One is because you don't
ever want to give the appearance thatyou are representing somebody, you're sort of
(03:07):
ghosting them in some way with theirrepresentation, and we okay you have that
might yeah, so that might besomething that differs by state. It may
be I think I think you're absolutelyregularly in New York if you are representation
to the court that you're pro se, then we as as attorneys are not
(03:29):
really permitted to kind of be thewizard behind the scenes advising you. However,
sometimes something that's in between representing youin a divorce case and UM and
having to be totally without counsel iswhen we do consulting UM, either because
you already have counsel and you're lookingfor an additional perspective. So we may
(03:52):
act as counsel in a case wherewe're not the primary counsel, but we're
sort of um, a consulting attorney. Or if you're doing media, that's
another situation where it's UM common tohave an attorney of your own who you
can filt with and that helps youengage in the mediation in a more informed
way. Okay, um. Andso then I also have limited representation where
(04:15):
um and again I guess this maydiffer by states, but I know here
in Colorado attorneys can enter can representyou for a specific hearing and then withdrawal
from the case. This is Kellyand I again I have to say that
we I don't know for ethically forhim from doing that, but we don't
(04:38):
hear um. You know, inNew York City, where we mostly practice,
the once you're once you've appeared formallyin a case, it is very
difficult to h be relieved from thecase, even if even in some circumstances
where your quient wants you to berelieved, the judge could um you know,
(04:59):
tell your client that it's not somethingthat the court will be happy with,
because it could result in a delayin the proceeding. So, um,
I've never heard of in a divorcehere in New York where somebody's just
representing a party for a limited purposethat, you know, just to summarize.
I don't know if they can't dothat, but I imagine judges would
(05:19):
not be very happy with that arrangement. I was just going to say that
this is Emily. I think inNew York frequently, if the parties have
the resources to have attorneys, thecourts would much prefer that they do.
So. Once the court kind ofgets their gets their hands on an attorney
in a case, they're going tobe a little reticent to let them go.
(05:41):
Right. So what you're talking aboutthen is full represent craction, right,
Um. And that's really where anattorney is handling your case suit right.
And I actually that's a definitely beennuts part we're handling. But I
think that again it's Kelly. Ithink that really to effectively represent somebody in
(06:05):
connection with the matrimonial matter, youhave to handle i'd say, all aspects
because even if you're simply doing let'syou say, you could do this type
of bundle situation where maybe you're justgoing to handle the custody aspect. There
could be issues that arise in thecustody case that actually would impact how child
(06:26):
support will be decided, or youknow, how the nortal home will be
distributed in the event of a divorce. So I think it would be very
challenging for a lawyer to effectively representsomebody unless they're handling all issues. Okay,
so then let me jump to you. You know that you need an
(06:48):
attorney, and you're going to starttalking to attorneys. What are some of
the topics or questions you should explorewhen you in those in the initial conversation,
you want to take the semi sure. I think you know when you
first meet with an attorney, beforeyou even get to the part where you're
(07:11):
having a meeting with them, youwant to do a little bit of research
about the person that you're meeting.However, you were referred to them,
I know you mentioned sometimes you getreferred by a friend or a co worker.
Sometimes people go to their professional advisors, a financial advisor, or trust
the states lawyer, they ask forrecommendations. I think it's helple to ask
why the person is recommending to theperson that they're recommending, because that can
(07:34):
tell you a little bit about theirreputation and what you should expect going in.
They may say, you know,this person is really knowledgeable in the
area of law. She's also veryfamiliar with that practice area, in the
bar, the bench, in thearea where you're going to be litigating.
And then they may say something likeshe's also very compassionate, or she's exceedingly
(07:56):
aggressive, or whatever it is thatthey think is the benefit of this person,
which can tell you a little bitabout whether that's going to be a
fit before you even go in.You can also do a little online research
to look at whether they have anyarticles that they've written, if they have
any books that are published, ifthey're regularly lecturing in the practice area,
to see if they really are amatrimonial attorney or if they're, you know,
(08:18):
a tax attorney who does divorces sometimes, which is not what you want
if you're going to get a matrimonialattorney, a family law attorney. You
want to get somebody who actually specializesin that practice area. And then once
you're there, I think you wantto get a sense of what they think
the litigation will look like, sortof a big picture of what they expect
(08:39):
the process to be. What kindsof things they think you should be doing
as you prepare for the divorce process. Do they know your spouse's attorney?
If your spouse already has an attorney, and if so, you know what
kind of relationship today have. Clientsare often very concerned about attorneys knowing each
other, but the reality is it'svery help when attorneys have a baseline of
(09:03):
a relationship with each other, becauseit helps them move the case forward productively.
Do they typically represent only moneyed spousesor non moneyed spouses? Do they
typically represent only moms or dads?Kind of get a history of what kinds
of cases they take so that youknow whether they're used to representing whatever your
(09:26):
sort of position is going to be. Those kinds of questions should be enough
to give you a sense of whetherthis is a person that you can really
connect with and get along with,which is important with your divorce attorney.
And finally, I think it's reallyimportant to hear if they are being realistic
with you, or if they're tellingyou what you want to hear. Commonly,
you know why. I had acase last year with a client who
(09:50):
had done a consultation with me.She felt like what I said was not
what she wanted to hear. Shehired somebody else, and she came back
to me a few months later andsaid, you know, everything you said
it is going to happen happened.And I would much rather be with someone
who's going to be upfront and honestabout what I can expect than somebody who's
just going to kind of tell mewhat I want to hear. Well,
and Emily, I think that thatlast point points to it's not sufficient just
(10:16):
to talk to one attorney. AbsolutelyI agree. So you know, this
is Kelly and I, you know, I just before we move on from
where from what Emily was talking aboutand then getting into interviewing other, you
know, many attorneys or several attorneys, I think one one question you should
ask is whether the attorney that you'remeeting with or you're doing the initial consultation
(10:39):
is the one you'll be working with, and what involvement that attorney will have
in the case, So you know, it's it's very important in I'm sure
it's as in most attorney client relationshipsthat it's really like your lawyer, but
I think it's pretty critical in thematrimonial context because it's so personal and it's
so emotional. UM. So,where you might click with the person that
(11:03):
you're doing the you know, theattorney who's doing the consultation, they may
assign an associate to handle the dayto day and you may not be UM,
you may not like that person asmuch as you like the attorney,
or you might not. You mighthave some doubts about them. So I
think it's important to find out whatrole the person, what role the attorney,
the consulting attorney will have, andthen how they handle the day to
(11:26):
day. And you shouldn't hesitate about, um asking to meet the person who
will be handling handling the day today on your on your case. And
I think, UM, as faras you know whether you should interview several
attorneys, I really could go eitherway on that. UM. I think
when you meet the right one,you're going to know. UM. It's
sort of I feel like maybe datinga little bit um you know, but
(11:50):
you know it, but it isright. I mean, it's you know,
you can go out for coffee withsomebody and just know you click.
And the same thing which is maybejust meeting somebody in the professional set or
in a volunteer setting. You justknow when you're when you trust that person
or get along with them. AndI think that that same gut, that
same instinct should be brought to thetable on selecting your matrimonial attorney. I
(12:11):
find, you know, when peoplego, you know, from attorney to
attorney to figure out who they wantto work with, they can get overwhelmed,
you know, with a lot ofinformation. And as you said earlier,
Mandy, it's already an overwhelming processbecause your marriage is ending. So
I don't think that one should feelcompelled to interview too three or four lawyers
(12:35):
if they think that they've met theif they've met the one, right,
Okay, that's a good point.So should people expect to pay for that
initial consult This is Kelly, Ithink so here in New York City it
is common practice that the consultation hasa fate associated with it. And we
(13:00):
as lawyers, we were very busy, so you know, we just can't
we have to, you know,charge for our time. But also it
prevents you know, potential clients orfrom shopping around from lawyer to lawyer and
potentially conflicting out their spouse from meetingwith particular lawyers. So our our rate
here in the city is typically it'sa flat rate for a consultation. It's
(13:24):
our hourly rate, and a consultationis usually anywhere from an hour to two
hours. So I would just saythis is only one of the reasons I
think that we charge for consultations.Also is because we try to make them,
you know, very productive. Ifyou have a prenuptial agreement, you
can send that to us, we'llread it before the consultation. If you
(13:46):
have specific concerns about, you know, an issue, you might raise that
for us before the consultation. Wecan do a little preliminary research on it
before we meet with you if it'ssomething that would require some kind of specialized
research, because we want to makesure that the consultation is going to be
a productive use of your time andour time. I mean, it's just
as it's kind of a the datingscenario that Kelly mentioned in terms of the
(14:07):
client deciding whether it's an attorney that'sa good fit, we also have to
make sure that it's a client thatwe think would be a good fit for
us, somebody that we can representwell, whose goals are consistent with the
way that we practice. So it'simportant that that meeting be a substantive meeting.
And it's really it's no different thanyou know, us actually representing the
(14:30):
person. I mean, the amountof you know, the effort that we
put into these consultations, you know, the skill set that we're bring to
them. It. You know,I don't really understand why people don't charge,
um, you know, unless they'rejust sort of you know, a
divorce mail and they're just looking toyou know, get as many clients in
(14:50):
the door as possible. But aconsulication is a lot of work for a
lawyer, and at least for usit is. And you know, like
I it could be up to twohour meeting. And as Emily said,
we review doctor men in advance,and um, I think that if somebody
isn't charging, that may raise ared flag about about what you could expected
(15:11):
the quality of the representation going right. So that's what that's That's a good
point is that free doesn't necessarily meanthat you are going to get a really
good way of being able to assesshow that lawyer is going to handle your
case. So I think, yeah, you know, I would just quotion
(15:31):
people the um it's that old adage. You get what you pay for um.
You know what. I say thatall the time, Andy, and
it's so true. And you know, if you can't afford the consultation,
then maybe you won't be able toafford the represent you know, the ongoing
representation that said if you know,you might if we all do conplications with
(15:56):
people who have been referred to me, and they'll come and say, oh,
I definitely can't afford your fees.But you know, the way Emily
and I practice is we do itvery leanly. And it turns out that
even though we work for a nationallaw firm that you know that has multiple
officers across the country, they findout that we're actually not much more money
(16:17):
than in some of these smaller shops. And because we run our capes leany
and we are very mindful of thefees, having a divorce with us could
be less expensive than going to somebodywho's our ely rates, or maybe a
little bit less. Run hour Agood point. And I don't think we're
going to have time today to talkabout fees and how to manage that,
(16:37):
but you know, maybe we cando that in another show. We need
to take a short break here andthen I have more questions. You're listening
to conversations about divorce, and todaywe're talking about choosing the right divorce attorney
for you. My guest today areKelly Frawley and Emily Pollock, new York
based matrimonial and family law attorneys andpartners. So it's Benson Taurres. Before
(17:03):
we took the break, you hadmentioned about do you charge a fee to
help avoid people having consults and conflictingout? Can you explain what you mean
by conflicting out? Sure, thisis Kelly so in in New York.
(17:26):
I don't know how it is inColorado. And if you meet with an
attorney at a law firm and youprovide information to them about your marriage and
about the impending divorce, you aregiving them confidential information that you would not
(17:47):
want them to have if they weregoing to be representing your spouse if you
decide not to retain them. Sowhat we do here in New York,
if if we meet with one spouse, even if that's spouse does not retain
us, we will not meet withthe other spouse because we have received confidential
information. And so it's you know, there is sort of a approach that
(18:14):
some litigands have taken and there's caselaw on this where they'll call up a
bunch of the top name divorce lawyersand just shout information over the phone and
then say that their spouse can neverretain them because they've already given information to
that firm. So I'm not talkingabout those situations. We're talking about where
somebody actually comes in, does aconsultation, gives you confidential information, and
(18:38):
if they decide not to work withyou, you would be arguably conflicted.
Out of these we also we've mentioneda couple of times about how overwhelming this
is. So when you go forthat meeting, that initial consult with an
attorney, is it a good ideato take a friend with you? Emily,
(19:00):
it certainly can be. There area couple of things concerns that you
should work your way through before youmake that choice. The first is that
if you bring a friend or familymembers, and people bring a parent or
a sibling, if you do havesomebody else there with you, attorney client
privilege will not apply to the conversationthat you have so to the extent that
(19:22):
you're providing information that you know atsome point down the line. In the
case, you wouldn't want the otherside to know that's something to be aware
of. In addition, it canbe a very intimate conversation. I mean,
marriages are intimate relationships, so ifyou're going to be discussing why your
(19:42):
marriage is not working, you maybe talking about things that you wouldn't want
other people to be aware of.People will often talk to us about their
sex lives, about psychiatric issues,about substance abuse issues, maybe even just
behavior in the dynamic of the relationshipthat other people aren't aware of. So
you should think through that before youcome to the consultation because it is important
(20:06):
that in the consultation you feel thatyou can be forthcoming with your attorney.
We can be most helpful to youif we really know everything about the case
and everything about the circumstances, andwe can give you the best picture of
what we think would be a goodapproach for you and where your case might
go if we have all the information. That being said, it can be
exceedingly helpful to have somebody there becauseit's it's an overwhelming process and having somebody
(20:32):
else who can not only help youkeep track of the information that you receive
by taking notes or even just beinganother person to say yes, I heard
that also, But it can alsobe somebody who can help you kind of
evaluate whether this is an attorney thatyou'd want to work with. What's their
impression of this person. Does itseem like it's a good fit. Is
the chemistry good? Do they likethe way that they talked about what their
(20:53):
approach would be. So yeah,it can always be helpful to have a
trusted person there with you. Youjust need to be aware of that other
conferment that choice. I'm reminded.I had a client who had a traumatic
brain injury, so she was shestruggled with short term memory retention. So
I did go with her to herattorney meetings because and I think that that
(21:18):
was helpful both for the attorney andher because there was somebody else just helping
to make sure that we were meetingdeadlines and make sure that we were providing
the information that was needed. Right, And I think they're there if you
were actually offering that type of afifth dance that would be protected by privilege.
(21:41):
UM if I if I you knowwhat I opened you UM with clients
when it's an initial complication, Ialways we always give the you know,
we always informed them that there isno confidentiality. And what I try to
fugget, um fermly if that youtheir friend can wait in the reception area
(22:02):
and we can we can start themeeting with them, and we could always
end the meeting with them. ButI think it's important that there is the
middle piece of the meeting where it'sjust you and the potential client. And
I think it it also you know, I also I love one of my
favorite things about doing matrimonial laws whenyou meet with a client who is just
(22:23):
really worn down at the beginning ofthe case and um, you know,
they're intimidated by the process, whichI think is totally natural. They're they're
intimidated by their spouse, which unfortunatelyhappens more often than I would than I
would like. And when you justsee that client grow over the course of
the case and you know, justbecome stronger. And I find that when
(22:44):
they come into the consultation there maybehung over a little bit, and when
they leave on their own because they'vedone it, They've gotten into your office,
they've asked questions, they've armed themselveswith information, they walk out taller,
and I think when they bring insomebody they can just continue to rely
on that person and it doesn't reallyhelp them be better and more informed in
the process, which I think iscritical to getting through it. Um and
(23:08):
a thing. So that's a reallyinteresting observation. I like that. UM,
I have a question of one ofthe questions to ask the attorney that
you're interviewing with. I'm wondering ifthis is a reason I would want to
know, is what are the reasonableexpectations for turnaround times for responding to email
some phone calls? What could Iexpect if I was working with you?
(23:33):
This is Emily. UM. Yeah, I think that's a great question,
and I think that it's important thatyou find an attorney that is responsive in
a way that's appropriate to you interms of asking that question. Doesn't get
defensive. At the same time,you know, one of the things that
we really do with our clients istry to reinforce with them how important it
(23:56):
is that they maintain and work ondeveloping their life outside of their divorce case,
even during their divorce. So,UM, you know, absolutely you
have a right to have somebody who'sgoing to be responsive to you and who's
going to address the issues that youraise. But I don't know that it
really serves people to have somebody whois going to be engaging with them at
(24:19):
eleven pm on non emergency issues intheir case. UM, I think it
actually is helpful to clients to say, you know why, to put those
things in an email and we'll havea call tomorrow at X time and we'll
talk about them, or you know, if you we can work. However,
is helpful for you if you wantto send me emails as thoughts occur
(24:40):
to you, you can certainly dothat and then I will, you know,
respond to them all at once.But it's it's more expensive for you
if I read fifteen emails during theday each as they come in and respond
to them instead of taking an emailat the end of the day and saying,
you know, here's here's the answerto everything that you've raised. And
it's also not helpful to you becausethat means all day long you're also getting
(25:03):
emails about your divorce case, andat most points in a divorce case,
that's not necessary. So it's betterto have the ability to mentally disengage from
litigation and figure out what else isgoing on, whether it's taking care of
yourself mentally. For the non legalaspects of the fallout of your divorce or
starting to develop and build the lifethat you're going to have once you are
(25:26):
divorced. I also thinkum, ifa lawyer is getting back to you within
minutes of you sending an email,you have to wonder is that answer really
a well thought out answer or isthat you know needs your reaction. You
know, there are times where youknow, I'll think about responding a certain
way to a client and then justwait a second, and then I take
(25:49):
a different approach because I've had timeto think about it or talk to Emily
about what next that should you know, should we should take in a case?
So you know, I don't thinkit's necessarily I think what you know
Emily's point, it's not good forthe client. But also are you getting
well thought out advice right? Right? Because the attorney is not your friend,
(26:10):
right, it's not there. Theyshouldn't just like be hitting you back
with text messages or email. Yeah, I mean it's yeah, that would
make my life easier though if Icould communicate an emoji right there, probably
cheaper for the client too, orclassic Yeah, So what are some of
(26:32):
the red flags the um that yourattorney isn't doing. Tell tell me that
you've had this conversation with the attorneys, how do you decide what are what
are the key factors that should gointo your decision about which attorney to work
with. I have to this iscow I'd had to say one that if
(26:56):
they look at their phone, ifthey look at their email when you're in
your initial consultation with them, Ithink that, um, you should just
even should not even you know,the most reputable intelligent where you're off your
list, because if they're doing thatwhen they're trying to secure your business,
what's going to happen when they alreadyhave it right? So it means that
(27:18):
they're not they're not focused on you, they're not paying attention to him,
they kind of going through the motionsto that. To that same end,
I think if they're um you know, if it's very difficult to set up
a consult time with them because they'renot responsive or they never have any um
you know, availability and they takea long time to get back to you,
(27:40):
If that's what's happening when they're workingon getting your business, it's not
going to get better during the case. So you should keep that in mind
as well, okay. Any tardinessis also another one. If they're not
taking you on time, um,because you need your lawyer to be on
time for meetings you you know,because everyone's paying for you know, if
you if you go to a settlementmeeting where they're you know, the other
(28:02):
side is present. If everyone's justwaiting around for your lawyer to show up
at cost money, it's also nota really great impression that your lawyer sending
to the opposing side. It saysthat maybe your case isn't that important to
the lawyer, so I think.And also for court, we have to
be we have to be on timefor court. And I think Emily and
(28:22):
I both are the same that ifwe're not there fifteen twenty minutes early,
we're late. So um, Ithink punctuality is incredibly important. Okay.
And if if they're if they're afew minutes late and take you to the
consult that's one thing. But ifit's fifteen minutes, ten minutes, I
mean, I frankly think even anytime after if it's not okay, But
okay, those are great red flags. Um. I Also I just one
(28:45):
more I'm just gonna we touched onthis before but I really think you have
to be careful of an attorney whojust sort of yes, is you um.
Part of our guide, particularly ina process that is so emotionally fraught
as divorces. Part of our jobis to give you reasonable boundaries and expectations.
People are not always at their mostreasonable in a divorce case. So
(29:06):
you want an advisor who is goingto speak to you about what you should
realistically expect, and sometimes that's notgoing to be, you know, an
answer that you like. But there'sonly so much variation in terms of what
can happen in a case because we'redealing with a court and so, you
know, we do have a sensethat there are things that can happen in
(29:27):
a case and there are things thatcan't. Use There are best case scenarios
and worst case scenarios, and whatwill actually happen is probably somewhere in the
middle. But I think that peopleshould be guided by their instinct. If
somebody is kind of you know,giving them selling them align that they're not
going to be able to deliver onOkay, we're almost up on time,
(29:51):
But I have one more question thatI absolutely have to ask you. I
do get asked sometimes by clients.I often get asked to give them referrals
for attorneys. But sometimes somebody willsay to me, who's the most aggressive
attorney that you know? Um,And I have my own take on that,
(30:11):
but I want to hear what yourtake is on that question and whether
that's what people really need. Iguess this is Kelly, and I'm sure
I'm will chime in. I don'teven really know what that means in a
matrimonial case. You know, wework, we are a very small department.
(30:33):
There's a few of us in thematrimonial family Love department here at Cathuits,
and we are among mostly commercial litigators, and our firm is known to
take an aggressive approach in their intheir litigation, in their lillegations. But
you know, for matrimonial I reallyjust don't know what that means if it,
you know, I think you couldbe aggressive, but you could be
smart about it, you don't,you know, And sometimes you have to
(30:56):
be aggressive where there's the mess violence, you know, the kids, the
kids are somehow endangered, or maybesomebody's wasting money. And if you don't
move quickly by going into court,you're gonna, you know, you'll risk
some serious harm to your children orto your own physical safety. So I
think they're being aggressive is fine,and you know, sometimes it's really necessary,
(31:21):
especially when you represent somebody who hasbeen suffering from domestic violence. But
where it's just across the board tobe aggressive, I think it's totally you
know, it's just destructive. Andyou know, we we know. I'm
sure Emily and I could probably eachwrite down a list of three names and
there would be the same three oneach of our lists. And you know,
who are just known to not reallyyou know, take a one size
(31:44):
fits all approach to cases and justrun to court and make the same arguments.
And so I don't think I'm sure, Mandy, you know you're thinking
probably What you know, I thinka lot of us think is that you
don't want aggressive. You don't wantthe pit bull, you don't want the
shark, for sure. But thensometimes there are situations that do require you
to have a lawyer that have abit of a heavy hand to actually get
(32:06):
you to move, because otherwise you'lljust sit in your life and in the
same position and not do anything.And what do you think, Yeah,
I think that's true. I alsowould say that I think people often would
get you know, it's not uncommonfor people to be angry when they're engaging
in a divorce case, and it'svery easy as a lawyer to facilitate that
anger, to foment the anger,to you know, help ratchet up hostility
(32:31):
in the litigation, and ultimately itjust does you a disservice both because the
process is more expensive, it takeslonger, and it just capitalizes on negative
feelings instead of helping you move tothe place that you want to be after
the divorce is over. So toget an attorney who whose hallmark is you
(32:53):
know, this bulldog that we areall picturing, is just not effective in
the way that I think people thinkit's going to be. I think people
think they're going to get justice orget vindication, they're going to really stick
it to the other side, andyou don't get to do that in divorce.
It's just not the judges know whothe shirts are, right. So
my own take, you know,I think what happens is you end up
(33:15):
you end up losing credibility and youjust end up having all of this resentment
that has nowhere to go, whichmakes it very difficult for you to then
engage in productive settlement conversations, andultimately that's what should happen in divorce cases.
Other than the circumstances that you know, Kelly mentioned where there's real disparity
of power, either because of ahistory of abuse or you know, some
(33:37):
other reason that there's just not anequal playing field. What should be happening
in divorce is that people should beworking together to settle the case and be
done with this, so particularly thereare children. Either to that point,
you know, clients, if theywant you to be aggressive or you know,
almost irrational and fight back and justthrow blood, they don't realize it
(34:00):
for us, And when we don'twant to do that because we don't think
it's the right approach, clients don'trealize that it's that's actually an easier approach
for the lawyers. That really hotjob as being a matrimonial lawyer is settling
a case. It's much easier tosettle, much easier to try a case
and settle a case. It's muchmore you know, taxing on us to
calm the client down and say let'sjust take the more you know, a
(34:21):
calmer approach, and that's a lotof work that can you know, cannot
want. You have to convince theclient that it's the right way, it's
the best way for them. Butthen you know, then you actually to
you know, effectuate it. It'snot as though if you don't file emotion
there's no work to be done.So it's it's it's not that we're taking
the easy road for in fact,I think it's the much it's the much
more challenging road. Um. Somy own take is kind of um,
(34:42):
in line with what you say.It's aggressive, isn't the adjective I would
choose. I'd be looking for somebodywho's resilient, persistent, has the expertise,
who's going to give me informed adviceabout the cost benefit of any strategy
and suddenly not just go off tosomething and is racking up the fees.
(35:04):
Absolutely, and I you know thisis Emily. You want somebody who is
capable of being a strong advocate.Of course, so you know, you
want somebody who can be effective incourt, who is able to you know,
argue motions, who's able to goto trial if that's where the case
goes. But you also want somebodywho is not having that be the goal
of the litigation, right, Youwant somebody who's whose focus is what's the
(35:29):
best for you ultimately, and you, as a client, make the choice.
You know, you're always the onewho says, yes, I like
that dealer, No I'm not doingit. But you want advisor who's going
to be helping you do what makesthe most sense, not what's going to
make them the most money. Right. Well, Emily and Kelly, thank
you so much for joining us today, and I really appreciate you sharing all
(35:50):
your tips because who you work withis your divorce attorney, really matters,
and I think it's important to makethe right choice to start with. Thank
you. Listen as my guest todaywere Kelly Frawley and Emily Pollock, new
York based matrimonial and family law attorneysand partners at Kassowitz Benson Torres and the
(36:15):
website is Kassowitz kasowi tz dot comand they're on Twitter at Kassowitz LLLP so
you can follow them. Finding theright attorney to work with is critical.
It'll have a profound impact on theoutcome of your divorce, your pocketbook,
(36:36):
and on your future. And puttingthe legwork in up front, understanding your
needs, doing the research, interviewingattorneys is all about investing in your future.
If you're a regular listener, thankyou. You'll also know that I'm
always stressing the importance of making informed, intentional decisions, and Kelly and Emily
(36:57):
have shared some really solid sound advice. He follow it, you won't regret
it. Thank you for listening today. If you'll hop over to my blog
Since my Divorce dot com, you'llfind a synopsis of this conversation and you
can follow me at Since my Divorceon Twitter and on Facebook. And I
hope you'll join us again next timefor more conversations about divorce.
Getting a divorce. Even thinking aboutgetting a divorce can be overwhelming, scary,
and sometimes exciting. Join divorce coachand mediator Mandy Walker for conversations about
divorce. The more you know,the easier it will be to make your
divorce healthier, less trustful, andto put it behind you. Here's Mandy.
(00:23):
Welcome to conversations about divorce. I'mMandy Walker, and today we're talking
about finding the right divorce at Honeyfor You. Now more and more people
are filing for divorce themselves without attorneys, but that doesn't mean they aren't getting
legal advice, and in my opinion, most people do need legal advice on
at least some aspect of their situationand form a pro say divorce may turn
(00:47):
into a fully contested divorce with atrial. The challenge for most people is
that in choosing a divorce attorney isknowing where to start. You're unfamiliar with
the legal system in general and withdomestic relations in particular. You're overwhelmed by
the end of your marriage and don'tknow enough about parenting after divorce or divorce
financials to know if something is anissue or an obstacle, and you've had
(01:11):
little experience dealing with attorneys, soit's hard to know who's going to do
a good job, or even whatis a good job. You ask your
friends and families and co workers whothey used, and that's a problem because
it's not making an informed, wellresearch decision. So what do you do
well? My guests today are KellyFrawley and Emily Pollock, new York based
(01:36):
matrimonial and family law attorneys and partnersat Kasselwitz, Benson and Torres. And
Emily and Kelly are here to tellus help answer all of those questions.
Welcome, thank you, Mandy,happy to be here. This is Kelly,
and this is Emily. I'm alsohappy to be here. Great.
I thought if we could just startoff with a very brief overview the different
(02:00):
ways of working with attorneys, becausethen we can make sure we get the
terminology right and our listeners can followalong. So I've got a few different
ways. Pro say, which Imentioned in the introduction, means that you
don't have an attorney representing you,and you're if you go to court,
(02:20):
you're doing it totally on your own. That's right. And then I don't
know about New York, in Coloradoor elsewhere I've heard about there's terms where
you can get a consult on anas needed basis. It's good for very
specific, well defined issues. Peoplemight refer to it as unbundled ad hoc
(02:43):
ala carte. Well, this isKelly. You know, I have to
say, I'm not sure. InEmily chime in here, I don't know
if ethically we're actually permitted to dothat in the city. I know they're
in the reading, and I'm hesitatingwith that. One is because you don't
ever want to give the appearance thatyou are representing somebody, you're sort of
(03:07):
ghosting them in some way with theirrepresentation, and we okay you have that
might yeah, so that might besomething that differs by state. It may
be I think I think you're absolutelyregularly in New York if you are representation
to the court that you're pro se, then we as as attorneys are not
(03:29):
really permitted to kind of be thewizard behind the scenes advising you. However,
sometimes something that's in between representing youin a divorce case and UM and
having to be totally without counsel iswhen we do consulting UM, either because
you already have counsel and you're lookingfor an additional perspective. So we may
(03:52):
act as counsel in a case wherewe're not the primary counsel, but we're
sort of um, a consulting attorney. Or if you're doing media, that's
another situation where it's UM common tohave an attorney of your own who you
can filt with and that helps youengage in the mediation in a more informed
way. Okay, um. Andso then I also have limited representation where
(04:15):
um and again I guess this maydiffer by states, but I know here
in Colorado attorneys can enter can representyou for a specific hearing and then withdrawal
from the case. This is Kellyand I again I have to say that
we I don't know for ethically forhim from doing that, but we don't
(04:38):
hear um. You know, inNew York City, where we mostly practice,
the once you're once you've appeared formallyin a case, it is very
difficult to h be relieved from thecase, even if even in some circumstances
where your quient wants you to berelieved, the judge could um you know,
(04:59):
tell your client that it's not somethingthat the court will be happy with,
because it could result in a delayin the proceeding. So, um,
I've never heard of in a divorcehere in New York where somebody's just
representing a party for a limited purposethat, you know, just to summarize.
I don't know if they can't dothat, but I imagine judges would
(05:19):
not be very happy with that arrangement. I was just going to say that
this is Emily. I think inNew York frequently, if the parties have
the resources to have attorneys, thecourts would much prefer that they do.
So. Once the court kind ofgets their gets their hands on an attorney
in a case, they're going tobe a little reticent to let them go.
(05:41):
Right. So what you're talking aboutthen is full represent craction, right,
Um. And that's really where anattorney is handling your case suit right.
And I actually that's a definitely beennuts part we're handling. But I
think that again it's Kelly. Ithink that really to effectively represent somebody in
(06:05):
connection with the matrimonial matter, youhave to handle i'd say, all aspects
because even if you're simply doing let'syou say, you could do this type
of bundle situation where maybe you're justgoing to handle the custody aspect. There
could be issues that arise in thecustody case that actually would impact how child
(06:26):
support will be decided, or youknow, how the nortal home will be
distributed in the event of a divorce. So I think it would be very
challenging for a lawyer to effectively representsomebody unless they're handling all issues. Okay,
so then let me jump to you. You know that you need an
(06:48):
attorney, and you're going to starttalking to attorneys. What are some of
the topics or questions you should explorewhen you in those in the initial conversation,
you want to take the semi sure. I think you know when you
first meet with an attorney, beforeyou even get to the part where you're
(07:11):
having a meeting with them, youwant to do a little bit of research
about the person that you're meeting.However, you were referred to them,
I know you mentioned sometimes you getreferred by a friend or a co worker.
Sometimes people go to their professional advisors, a financial advisor, or trust
the states lawyer, they ask forrecommendations. I think it's helple to ask
why the person is recommending to theperson that they're recommending, because that can
(07:34):
tell you a little bit about theirreputation and what you should expect going in.
They may say, you know,this person is really knowledgeable in the
area of law. She's also veryfamiliar with that practice area, in the
bar, the bench, in thearea where you're going to be litigating.
And then they may say something likeshe's also very compassionate, or she's exceedingly
(07:56):
aggressive, or whatever it is thatthey think is the benefit of this person,
which can tell you a little bitabout whether that's going to be a
fit before you even go in.You can also do a little online research
to look at whether they have anyarticles that they've written, if they have
any books that are published, ifthey're regularly lecturing in the practice area,
to see if they really are amatrimonial attorney or if they're, you know,
(08:18):
a tax attorney who does divorces sometimes, which is not what you want
if you're going to get a matrimonialattorney, a family law attorney. You
want to get somebody who actually specializesin that practice area. And then once
you're there, I think you wantto get a sense of what they think
the litigation will look like, sortof a big picture of what they expect
(08:39):
the process to be. What kindsof things they think you should be doing
as you prepare for the divorce process. Do they know your spouse's attorney?
If your spouse already has an attorney, and if so, you know what
kind of relationship today have. Clientsare often very concerned about attorneys knowing each
other, but the reality is it'svery help when attorneys have a baseline of
(09:03):
a relationship with each other, becauseit helps them move the case forward productively.
Do they typically represent only moneyed spousesor non moneyed spouses? Do they
typically represent only moms or dads?Kind of get a history of what kinds
of cases they take so that youknow whether they're used to representing whatever your
(09:26):
sort of position is going to be. Those kinds of questions should be enough
to give you a sense of whetherthis is a person that you can really
connect with and get along with,which is important with your divorce attorney.
And finally, I think it's reallyimportant to hear if they are being realistic
with you, or if they're tellingyou what you want to hear. Commonly,
you know why. I had acase last year with a client who
(09:50):
had done a consultation with me.She felt like what I said was not
what she wanted to hear. Shehired somebody else, and she came back
to me a few months later andsaid, you know, everything you said
it is going to happen happened.And I would much rather be with someone
who's going to be upfront and honestabout what I can expect than somebody who's
just going to kind of tell mewhat I want to hear. Well,
and Emily, I think that thatlast point points to it's not sufficient just
(10:16):
to talk to one attorney. AbsolutelyI agree. So you know, this
is Kelly and I, you know, I just before we move on from
where from what Emily was talking aboutand then getting into interviewing other, you
know, many attorneys or several attorneys, I think one one question you should
ask is whether the attorney that you'remeeting with or you're doing the initial consultation
(10:39):
is the one you'll be working with, and what involvement that attorney will have
in the case, So you know, it's it's very important in I'm sure
it's as in most attorney client relationshipsthat it's really like your lawyer, but
I think it's pretty critical in thematrimonial context because it's so personal and it's
so emotional. UM. So,where you might click with the person that
(11:03):
you're doing the you know, theattorney who's doing the consultation, they may
assign an associate to handle the dayto day and you may not be UM,
you may not like that person asmuch as you like the attorney,
or you might not. You mighthave some doubts about them. So I
think it's important to find out whatrole the person, what role the attorney,
the consulting attorney will have, andthen how they handle the day to
(11:26):
day. And you shouldn't hesitate about, um asking to meet the person who
will be handling handling the day today on your on your case. And
I think, UM, as faras you know whether you should interview several
attorneys, I really could go eitherway on that. UM. I think
when you meet the right one,you're going to know. UM. It's
sort of I feel like maybe datinga little bit um you know, but
(11:50):
you know it, but it isright. I mean, it's you know,
you can go out for coffee withsomebody and just know you click.
And the same thing which is maybejust meeting somebody in the professional set or
in a volunteer setting. You justknow when you're when you trust that person
or get along with them. AndI think that that same gut, that
same instinct should be brought to thetable on selecting your matrimonial attorney. I
(12:11):
find, you know, when peoplego, you know, from attorney to
attorney to figure out who they wantto work with, they can get overwhelmed,
you know, with a lot ofinformation. And as you said earlier,
Mandy, it's already an overwhelming processbecause your marriage is ending. So
I don't think that one should feelcompelled to interview too three or four lawyers
(12:35):
if they think that they've met theif they've met the one, right,
Okay, that's a good point.So should people expect to pay for that
initial consult This is Kelly, Ithink so here in New York City it
is common practice that the consultation hasa fate associated with it. And we
(13:00):
as lawyers, we were very busy, so you know, we just can't
we have to, you know,charge for our time. But also it
prevents you know, potential clients orfrom shopping around from lawyer to lawyer and
potentially conflicting out their spouse from meetingwith particular lawyers. So our our rate
here in the city is typically it'sa flat rate for a consultation. It's
(13:24):
our hourly rate, and a consultationis usually anywhere from an hour to two
hours. So I would just saythis is only one of the reasons I
think that we charge for consultations.Also is because we try to make them,
you know, very productive. Ifyou have a prenuptial agreement, you
can send that to us, we'llread it before the consultation. If you
(13:46):
have specific concerns about, you know, an issue, you might raise that
for us before the consultation. Wecan do a little preliminary research on it
before we meet with you if it'ssomething that would require some kind of specialized
research, because we want to makesure that the consultation is going to be
a productive use of your time andour time. I mean, it's just
as it's kind of a the datingscenario that Kelly mentioned in terms of the
(14:07):
client deciding whether it's an attorney that'sa good fit, we also have to
make sure that it's a client thatwe think would be a good fit for
us, somebody that we can representwell, whose goals are consistent with the
way that we practice. So it'simportant that that meeting be a substantive meeting.
And it's really it's no different thanyou know, us actually representing the
(14:30):
person. I mean, the amountof you know, the effort that we
put into these consultations, you know, the skill set that we're bring to
them. It. You know,I don't really understand why people don't charge,
um, you know, unless they'rejust sort of you know, a
divorce mail and they're just looking toyou know, get as many clients in
(14:50):
the door as possible. But aconsulication is a lot of work for a
lawyer, and at least for usit is. And you know, like
I it could be up to twohour meeting. And as Emily said,
we review doctor men in advance,and um, I think that if somebody
isn't charging, that may raise ared flag about about what you could expected
(15:11):
the quality of the representation going right. So that's what that's That's a good
point is that free doesn't necessarily meanthat you are going to get a really
good way of being able to assesshow that lawyer is going to handle your
case. So I think, yeah, you know, I would just quotion
(15:31):
people the um it's that old adage. You get what you pay for um.
You know what. I say thatall the time, Andy, and
it's so true. And you know, if you can't afford the consultation,
then maybe you won't be able toafford the represent you know, the ongoing
representation that said if you know,you might if we all do conplications with
(15:56):
people who have been referred to me, and they'll come and say, oh,
I definitely can't afford your fees.But you know, the way Emily
and I practice is we do itvery leanly. And it turns out that
even though we work for a nationallaw firm that you know that has multiple
officers across the country, they findout that we're actually not much more money
(16:17):
than in some of these smaller shops. And because we run our capes leany
and we are very mindful of thefees, having a divorce with us could
be less expensive than going to somebodywho's our ely rates, or maybe a
little bit less. Run hour Agood point. And I don't think we're
going to have time today to talkabout fees and how to manage that,
(16:37):
but you know, maybe we cando that in another show. We need
to take a short break here andthen I have more questions. You're listening
to conversations about divorce, and todaywe're talking about choosing the right divorce attorney
for you. My guest today areKelly Frawley and Emily Pollock, new York
based matrimonial and family law attorneys andpartners. So it's Benson Taurres. Before
(17:03):
we took the break, you hadmentioned about do you charge a fee to
help avoid people having consults and conflictingout? Can you explain what you mean
by conflicting out? Sure, thisis Kelly so in in New York.
(17:26):
I don't know how it is inColorado. And if you meet with an
attorney at a law firm and youprovide information to them about your marriage and
about the impending divorce, you aregiving them confidential information that you would not
(17:47):
want them to have if they weregoing to be representing your spouse if you
decide not to retain them. Sowhat we do here in New York,
if if we meet with one spouse, even if that's spouse does not retain
us, we will not meet withthe other spouse because we have received confidential
information. And so it's you know, there is sort of a approach that
(18:14):
some litigands have taken and there's caselaw on this where they'll call up a
bunch of the top name divorce lawyersand just shout information over the phone and
then say that their spouse can neverretain them because they've already given information to
that firm. So I'm not talkingabout those situations. We're talking about where
somebody actually comes in, does aconsultation, gives you confidential information, and
(18:38):
if they decide not to work withyou, you would be arguably conflicted.
Out of these we also we've mentioneda couple of times about how overwhelming this
is. So when you go forthat meeting, that initial consult with an
attorney, is it a good ideato take a friend with you? Emily,
(19:00):
it certainly can be. There area couple of things concerns that you
should work your way through before youmake that choice. The first is that
if you bring a friend or familymembers, and people bring a parent or
a sibling, if you do havesomebody else there with you, attorney client
privilege will not apply to the conversationthat you have so to the extent that
(19:22):
you're providing information that you know atsome point down the line. In the
case, you wouldn't want the otherside to know that's something to be aware
of. In addition, it canbe a very intimate conversation. I mean,
marriages are intimate relationships, so ifyou're going to be discussing why your
(19:42):
marriage is not working, you maybe talking about things that you wouldn't want
other people to be aware of.People will often talk to us about their
sex lives, about psychiatric issues,about substance abuse issues, maybe even just
behavior in the dynamic of the relationshipthat other people aren't aware of. So
you should think through that before youcome to the consultation because it is important
(20:06):
that in the consultation you feel thatyou can be forthcoming with your attorney.
We can be most helpful to youif we really know everything about the case
and everything about the circumstances, andwe can give you the best picture of
what we think would be a goodapproach for you and where your case might
go if we have all the information. That being said, it can be
exceedingly helpful to have somebody there becauseit's it's an overwhelming process and having somebody
(20:32):
else who can not only help youkeep track of the information that you receive
by taking notes or even just beinganother person to say yes, I heard
that also, But it can alsobe somebody who can help you kind of
evaluate whether this is an attorney thatyou'd want to work with. What's their
impression of this person. Does itseem like it's a good fit. Is
the chemistry good? Do they likethe way that they talked about what their
(20:53):
approach would be. So yeah,it can always be helpful to have a
trusted person there with you. Youjust need to be aware of that other
conferment that choice. I'm reminded.I had a client who had a traumatic
brain injury, so she was shestruggled with short term memory retention. So
I did go with her to herattorney meetings because and I think that that
(21:18):
was helpful both for the attorney andher because there was somebody else just helping
to make sure that we were meetingdeadlines and make sure that we were providing
the information that was needed. Right, And I think they're there if you
were actually offering that type of afifth dance that would be protected by privilege.
(21:41):
UM if I if I you knowwhat I opened you UM with clients
when it's an initial complication, Ialways we always give the you know,
we always informed them that there isno confidentiality. And what I try to
fugget, um fermly if that youtheir friend can wait in the reception area
(22:02):
and we can we can start themeeting with them, and we could always
end the meeting with them. ButI think it's important that there is the
middle piece of the meeting where it'sjust you and the potential client. And
I think it it also you know, I also I love one of my
favorite things about doing matrimonial laws whenyou meet with a client who is just
(22:23):
really worn down at the beginning ofthe case and um, you know,
they're intimidated by the process, whichI think is totally natural. They're they're
intimidated by their spouse, which unfortunatelyhappens more often than I would than I
would like. And when you justsee that client grow over the course of
the case and you know, justbecome stronger. And I find that when
(22:44):
they come into the consultation there maybehung over a little bit, and when
they leave on their own because they'vedone it, They've gotten into your office,
they've asked questions, they've armed themselveswith information, they walk out taller,
and I think when they bring insomebody they can just continue to rely
on that person and it doesn't reallyhelp them be better and more informed in
the process, which I think iscritical to getting through it. Um and
(23:08):
a thing. So that's a reallyinteresting observation. I like that. UM,
I have a question of one ofthe questions to ask the attorney that
you're interviewing with. I'm wondering ifthis is a reason I would want to
know, is what are the reasonableexpectations for turnaround times for responding to email
some phone calls? What could Iexpect if I was working with you?
(23:33):
This is Emily. UM. Yeah, I think that's a great question,
and I think that it's important thatyou find an attorney that is responsive in
a way that's appropriate to you interms of asking that question. Doesn't get
defensive. At the same time,you know, one of the things that
we really do with our clients istry to reinforce with them how important it
(23:56):
is that they maintain and work ondeveloping their life outside of their divorce case,
even during their divorce. So,UM, you know, absolutely you
have a right to have somebody who'sgoing to be responsive to you and who's
going to address the issues that youraise. But I don't know that it
really serves people to have somebody whois going to be engaging with them at
(24:19):
eleven pm on non emergency issues intheir case. UM, I think it
actually is helpful to clients to say, you know why, to put those
things in an email and we'll havea call tomorrow at X time and we'll
talk about them, or you know, if you we can work. However,
is helpful for you if you wantto send me emails as thoughts occur
(24:40):
to you, you can certainly dothat and then I will, you know,
respond to them all at once.But it's it's more expensive for you
if I read fifteen emails during theday each as they come in and respond
to them instead of taking an emailat the end of the day and saying,
you know, here's here's the answerto everything that you've raised. And
it's also not helpful to you becausethat means all day long you're also getting
(25:03):
emails about your divorce case, andat most points in a divorce case,
that's not necessary. So it's betterto have the ability to mentally disengage from
litigation and figure out what else isgoing on, whether it's taking care of
yourself mentally. For the non legalaspects of the fallout of your divorce or
starting to develop and build the lifethat you're going to have once you are
(25:26):
divorced. I also thinkum, ifa lawyer is getting back to you within
minutes of you sending an email,you have to wonder is that answer really
a well thought out answer or isthat you know needs your reaction. You
know, there are times where youknow, I'll think about responding a certain
way to a client and then justwait a second, and then I take
(25:49):
a different approach because I've had timeto think about it or talk to Emily
about what next that should you know, should we should take in a case?
So you know, I don't thinkit's necessarily I think what you know
Emily's point, it's not good forthe client. But also are you getting
well thought out advice right? Right? Because the attorney is not your friend,
(26:10):
right, it's not there. Theyshouldn't just like be hitting you back
with text messages or email. Yeah, I mean it's yeah, that would
make my life easier though if Icould communicate an emoji right there, probably
cheaper for the client too, orclassic Yeah, So what are some of
(26:32):
the red flags the um that yourattorney isn't doing. Tell tell me that
you've had this conversation with the attorneys, how do you decide what are what
are the key factors that should gointo your decision about which attorney to work
with. I have to this iscow I'd had to say one that if
(26:56):
they look at their phone, ifthey look at their email when you're in
your initial consultation with them, Ithink that, um, you should just
even should not even you know,the most reputable intelligent where you're off your
list, because if they're doing thatwhen they're trying to secure your business,
what's going to happen when they alreadyhave it right? So it means that
(27:18):
they're not they're not focused on you, they're not paying attention to him,
they kind of going through the motionsto that. To that same end,
I think if they're um you know, if it's very difficult to set up
a consult time with them because they'renot responsive or they never have any um
you know, availability and they takea long time to get back to you,
(27:40):
If that's what's happening when they're workingon getting your business, it's not
going to get better during the case. So you should keep that in mind
as well, okay. Any tardinessis also another one. If they're not
taking you on time, um,because you need your lawyer to be on
time for meetings you you know,because everyone's paying for you know, if
you if you go to a settlementmeeting where they're you know, the other
(28:02):
side is present. If everyone's justwaiting around for your lawyer to show up
at cost money, it's also nota really great impression that your lawyer sending
to the opposing side. It saysthat maybe your case isn't that important to
the lawyer, so I think.And also for court, we have to
be we have to be on timefor court. And I think Emily and
(28:22):
I both are the same that ifwe're not there fifteen twenty minutes early,
we're late. So um, Ithink punctuality is incredibly important. Okay.
And if if they're if they're afew minutes late and take you to the
consult that's one thing. But ifit's fifteen minutes, ten minutes, I
mean, I frankly think even anytime after if it's not okay, But
okay, those are great red flags. Um. I Also I just one
(28:45):
more I'm just gonna we touched onthis before but I really think you have
to be careful of an attorney whojust sort of yes, is you um.
Part of our guide, particularly ina process that is so emotionally fraught
as divorces. Part of our jobis to give you reasonable boundaries and expectations.
People are not always at their mostreasonable in a divorce case. So
(29:06):
you want an advisor who is goingto speak to you about what you should
realistically expect, and sometimes that's notgoing to be, you know, an
answer that you like. But there'sonly so much variation in terms of what
can happen in a case because we'redealing with a court and so, you
know, we do have a sensethat there are things that can happen in
(29:27):
a case and there are things thatcan't. Use There are best case scenarios
and worst case scenarios, and whatwill actually happen is probably somewhere in the
middle. But I think that peopleshould be guided by their instinct. If
somebody is kind of you know,giving them selling them align that they're not
going to be able to deliver onOkay, we're almost up on time,
(29:51):
But I have one more question thatI absolutely have to ask you. I
do get asked sometimes by clients.I often get asked to give them referrals
for attorneys. But sometimes somebody willsay to me, who's the most aggressive
attorney that you know? Um,And I have my own take on that,
(30:11):
but I want to hear what yourtake is on that question and whether
that's what people really need. Iguess this is Kelly, and I'm sure
I'm will chime in. I don'teven really know what that means in a
matrimonial case. You know, wework, we are a very small department.
(30:33):
There's a few of us in thematrimonial family Love department here at Cathuits,
and we are among mostly commercial litigators, and our firm is known to
take an aggressive approach in their intheir litigation, in their lillegations. But
you know, for matrimonial I reallyjust don't know what that means if it,
you know, I think you couldbe aggressive, but you could be
smart about it, you don't,you know, And sometimes you have to
(30:56):
be aggressive where there's the mess violence, you know, the kids, the
kids are somehow endangered, or maybesomebody's wasting money. And if you don't
move quickly by going into court,you're gonna, you know, you'll risk
some serious harm to your children orto your own physical safety. So I
think they're being aggressive is fine,and you know, sometimes it's really necessary,
(31:21):
especially when you represent somebody who hasbeen suffering from domestic violence. But
where it's just across the board tobe aggressive, I think it's totally you
know, it's just destructive. Andyou know, we we know. I'm
sure Emily and I could probably eachwrite down a list of three names and
there would be the same three oneach of our lists. And you know,
who are just known to not reallyyou know, take a one size
(31:44):
fits all approach to cases and justrun to court and make the same arguments.
And so I don't think I'm sure, Mandy, you know you're thinking
probably What you know, I thinka lot of us think is that you
don't want aggressive. You don't wantthe pit bull, you don't want the
shark, for sure. But thensometimes there are situations that do require you
to have a lawyer that have abit of a heavy hand to actually get
(32:06):
you to move, because otherwise you'lljust sit in your life and in the
same position and not do anything.And what do you think, Yeah,
I think that's true. I alsowould say that I think people often would
get you know, it's not uncommonfor people to be angry when they're engaging
in a divorce case, and it'svery easy as a lawyer to facilitate that
anger, to foment the anger,to you know, help ratchet up hostility
(32:31):
in the litigation, and ultimately itjust does you a disservice both because the
process is more expensive, it takeslonger, and it just capitalizes on negative
feelings instead of helping you move tothe place that you want to be after
the divorce is over. So toget an attorney who whose hallmark is you
(32:53):
know, this bulldog that we areall picturing, is just not effective in
the way that I think people thinkit's going to be. I think people
think they're going to get justice orget vindication, they're going to really stick
it to the other side, andyou don't get to do that in divorce.
It's just not the judges know whothe shirts are, right. So
my own take, you know,I think what happens is you end up
(33:15):
you end up losing credibility and youjust end up having all of this resentment
that has nowhere to go, whichmakes it very difficult for you to then
engage in productive settlement conversations, andultimately that's what should happen in divorce cases.
Other than the circumstances that you know, Kelly mentioned where there's real disparity
of power, either because of ahistory of abuse or you know, some
(33:37):
other reason that there's just not anequal playing field. What should be happening
in divorce is that people should beworking together to settle the case and be
done with this, so particularly thereare children. Either to that point,
you know, clients, if theywant you to be aggressive or you know,
almost irrational and fight back and justthrow blood, they don't realize it
(34:00):
for us, And when we don'twant to do that because we don't think
it's the right approach, clients don'trealize that it's that's actually an easier approach
for the lawyers. That really hotjob as being a matrimonial lawyer is settling
a case. It's much easier tosettle, much easier to try a case
and settle a case. It's muchmore you know, taxing on us to
calm the client down and say let'sjust take the more you know, a
(34:21):
calmer approach, and that's a lotof work that can you know, cannot
want. You have to convince theclient that it's the right way, it's
the best way for them. Butthen you know, then you actually to
you know, effectuate it. It'snot as though if you don't file emotion
there's no work to be done.So it's it's it's not that we're taking
the easy road for in fact,I think it's the much it's the much
more challenging road. Um. Somy own take is kind of um,
(34:42):
in line with what you say.It's aggressive, isn't the adjective I would
choose. I'd be looking for somebodywho's resilient, persistent, has the expertise,
who's going to give me informed adviceabout the cost benefit of any strategy
and suddenly not just go off tosomething and is racking up the fees.
(35:04):
Absolutely, and I you know thisis Emily. You want somebody who is
capable of being a strong advocate.Of course, so you know, you
want somebody who can be effective incourt, who is able to you know,
argue motions, who's able to goto trial if that's where the case
goes. But you also want somebodywho is not having that be the goal
of the litigation, right, Youwant somebody who's whose focus is what's the
(35:29):
best for you ultimately, and you, as a client, make the choice.
You know, you're always the onewho says, yes, I like
that dealer, No I'm not doingit. But you want advisor who's going
to be helping you do what makesthe most sense, not what's going to
make them the most money. Right. Well, Emily and Kelly, thank
you so much for joining us today, and I really appreciate you sharing all
(35:50):
your tips because who you work withis your divorce attorney, really matters,
and I think it's important to makethe right choice to start with. Thank
you. Listen as my guest todaywere Kelly Frawley and Emily Pollock, new
York based matrimonial and family law attorneysand partners at Kassowitz Benson Torres and the
(36:15):
website is Kassowitz kasowi tz dot comand they're on Twitter at Kassowitz LLLP so
you can follow them. Finding theright attorney to work with is critical.
It'll have a profound impact on theoutcome of your divorce, your pocketbook,
(36:36):
and on your future. And puttingthe legwork in up front, understanding your
needs, doing the research, interviewingattorneys is all about investing in your future.
If you're a regular listener, thankyou. You'll also know that I'm
always stressing the importance of making informed, intentional decisions, and Kelly and Emily
(36:57):
have shared some really solid sound advice. He follow it, you won't regret
it. Thank you for listening today. If you'll hop over to my blog
Since my Divorce dot com, you'llfind a synopsis of this conversation and you
can follow me at Since my Divorceon Twitter and on Facebook. And I
hope you'll join us again next timefor more conversations about divorce.
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