September 16, 2019 • 32 mins
If divorce is confusing for adults, imagine how it is for your kids. It seems like everything in their world is changing and they have no control over any of it. It’s up to you to help your kids understand divorce.
We often hear that children are resilient and adaptable.
I also hear parents say that the kids know that the marriage is ending but they don’t know much about why. The parents think they’ve kept their disagreements private. They think they’ve shielded the kids from the undercurrents in the troubled marriage.
The kids seem to be doing just fine. They’re carrying on as normal.
But is this what is really happening?
Even when you think you’ve protected your kids; they know something isn’t right because their normal has changed. They see changes in routines at home.
They may be carrying on their usual but is that because they’re keeping a lid on their emotions? Are they struggling to label what it is they’re feeling? Are they trying desperately not to cause a disagreement between mom and dad?
Joining me for this Conversations About Divorce to talk about helping your kids understand divorce is Natalie Knox. Natalie is a primary school teacher and has been a lay counselor for children in crisis including general on-call trauma counselling and specialized divorce recovery counselling. Knox is also the author of The Mending Chronicles of Liam and Emily, a divorce recovery journey that’s aimed at kids aged 6 – 12.
Read more about Natalie and her work at https://themendingchronicles.com
You'll also find a synopsis of this show at my blog: https://sincemydivorce.com/how-do-you-best-help-your-kids-understand-divorce
We often hear that children are resilient and adaptable.
I also hear parents say that the kids know that the marriage is ending but they don’t know much about why. The parents think they’ve kept their disagreements private. They think they’ve shielded the kids from the undercurrents in the troubled marriage.
The kids seem to be doing just fine. They’re carrying on as normal.
But is this what is really happening?
Even when you think you’ve protected your kids; they know something isn’t right because their normal has changed. They see changes in routines at home.
They may be carrying on their usual but is that because they’re keeping a lid on their emotions? Are they struggling to label what it is they’re feeling? Are they trying desperately not to cause a disagreement between mom and dad?
Joining me for this Conversations About Divorce to talk about helping your kids understand divorce is Natalie Knox. Natalie is a primary school teacher and has been a lay counselor for children in crisis including general on-call trauma counselling and specialized divorce recovery counselling. Knox is also the author of The Mending Chronicles of Liam and Emily, a divorce recovery journey that’s aimed at kids aged 6 – 12.
Read more about Natalie and her work at https://themendingchronicles.com
You'll also find a synopsis of this show at my blog: https://sincemydivorce.com/how-do-you-best-help-your-kids-understand-divorce
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Getting a divorce. Even thinking aboutgetting a divorce can be overwhelming, scary,
and sometimes exciting. Join divorce coachand mediator Mandy Walker for conversations about
divorce. The more you know,the easier it will be to make your
divorce healthier, less trustful, andto put it behind you. Here's Mandy.
(00:23):
Welcome to conversations about divorce. I'mMandy Walker, and today we're talking
about divorce recovery for kids. Now. We often hear that children are resilient
and adaptable, and I also hearparents say that their kids know the marriage
is ending, but they don't reallyknow much about what's been going on.
The parents think that they've kept theirdisagreements private and they've shouldered their kids from
(00:47):
all the visible signs of a troubledmarriage. And I hear from parents that
the children seem to be doing fine, they're just carrying on as normal.
But is that what's really happening.Even if you think you've protected your kids,
they usually know that something is goingon, that something is not right
(01:08):
because their normal has changed and they'reseeing changes in routines at home. They
may be carrying on with their usual, but is that because they're trying to
keep a lid on their emotions.They may be struggling to label what it
is that they're feeling, and theysurely don't want to cause a disagreement between
(01:30):
mom and dad. Here to helpus understand more about helping our children cope
with divorce is Natalie Knox. Natalieis a primary school teacher and has been
a lay counselor for children in crisis, including general uncle trauma counseling and specialized
divorce recovery counseling. Natalie is alsothe author of The Mending Chronicles of Liam
(01:56):
and Emily, a divorce recovery journeythat's aimed children ages six through twelve.
Welcome, Natalie, thank you,Thank you so much for having me on
your show. Well, I'm reallyexcited to have you and I'm glad that
we're talking about this topic. Iwanted to start off by saying, in
your note to parents at the beginningof your book The Mending Chronicles, you
(02:20):
talk about being surprised yourself by themisconceptions that children had about divorce. I
wondered if you could share some ofthe most common misconceptions that you've encountered.
Yes, of course, So themisconceptions come up, often like what you
were saying earlier, where things arehidden and half conversations are heard, and
(02:44):
so kids end up making up theirown truth for what they think and perceive
is going on. And in mytime counseling children of divorce, I found
the most common ones are dad ormom, whoever it is who leaves,
left because they don't love them anymore. They are often afraid that the other
parents who stayed with them will alsoleave. They often feel guilty that possibly
(03:09):
it was their fault that they've donesomething. They often think back to big
events that may have happened where they'vefelt that they had a role in playing
and the thing going wrong, orthen they sort of say, well he
left because of that, and yeah. Those sort of other most main misconceptions
(03:30):
that children have, although there's justso many of them, but I found
that those are the most common,right, And I think you may have
mentioned this in the lead up there. I was wondering if where those misconceptions
come from. They come mainly fromthe stories that the children are making up
themselves, or from half heard theyheard conversations. Definitely, because as like
(03:55):
us adults, if you think ofa situation as going on. You tell
yourself story, you tell yourself yourtruth. And so children are are different.
They see what's going on and theytell themselves, this is what's happening,
and it's because of this or that, just as we do right.
And I found with my own personalexperience that many of my children's assumptions about
(04:21):
what was going to happen were basedon what they knew from their friends whose
parents had divorced. And so Ithink as soon as they see that the
marriage or their parents are maybe struggling, they go to that place of you
know, this is where my friendso and so is and her parents are
(04:42):
so mad with each other they won'ttalk, or she gets dropped off at
school in the morning by one parentand picked up by the by the other
parent, and they're always arguing.They just kind of make these They just
take those experiences of their friends andthink that that's what's going to be there,
that's right. And a lot offear comes out of that, especially
(05:03):
little girls, where they see what'shappening and they just end up with this
really big fear which goes into everypart of their life. So, um,
so, why girl, why girls? Especially do you know the answer
to that, or is that justsomething that you've observed. It's just something
(05:24):
I'm observed, Like a lot ofboys have anger, um and they act
out on that a lot of aggression, and girls tend to be more fearful.
Although it's not it's not a rule. I saw a little boy who
he was just too scared to showeron his own and had to have his
mom sitting in the bathroom that hewas just consumed with fear. So there
(05:45):
was an example of a little boy. So it's not necessarily that, but
I just find that often the girlshave fear. And do you think that,
um, you know the little boywho showering, I mean, that
could be some separation anxiety that's beengoing on for many, many years,
(06:06):
but then the divorce exaggerates or exasperatesanything that was going on before. That's
right, if you think of hislittle world, I mean I can't remember
his age because about nine or tenyears old, everything he knew in those
ten years suddenly had changed and waschanging, and it was so scary for
(06:30):
him because he had no control overit. He wasn't involved in any of
the decision making that you know,often kids have to move home giveaway pets
say about to friends. Everything changesand if you think of our of us
as adults, when we go throughthat, it just upsets us. It
makes us fearful. We think ofthings that are coming in the future,
(06:51):
and we just suffer from anxiety.And it's just compounded with children where they
are just so out of control ofwhat's going on their world. So how
can a parent tell when their childis struggling? I mean, I think
that there are some children that willtell parents, but other times, like
(07:13):
you know, where the children aretrying to not make more trouble because they
perceive that they've started this trouble,so they're trying not to make more trouble,
but they acquire or just making makingout that everything is fine. How
what are some of the tell talesigns that parents should look for that their
(07:34):
child is really needing more help.I think every parent knows their child,
So the first step would be toslow down and just invest time in being
with them. And by that Imean making time for conversations, making times
to check in and say how areyou, and leaving spaces for the children
(07:56):
to pluck up the courage to sayI'm feeling this or ask questions. But
I think things like nightmares, Imean that's a subconscious thing. If your
child is continually having nightmares, there'ssomething that's in the back of their mind
that's bothering them. If they're nota child who has nightmares normally bedwetting,
(08:20):
if they are beyond the age ofthat and it started up again, anything
that's sort of not normal, Iwould say parents take notes, and sometimes
it doesn't have to be a bigthing. It can just be a different
to change. Often children withdraw andit's hard to connect with them and get
them conversing and talking to you.But if they're an outgoing child, or
(08:43):
like lots of tantrums and just asmall thing that just sparks them off with
huge angry outbursts, things that they'renot normally doing. If they start then
I think a parent, could yourealize I need to make time to talk
to them a personality. And thenfor child that's eleven twelve, if they
start self harming things like that,it's a big warning sign, right,
(09:09):
So you really have to be payingclose attention to your child and observing them.
And I think that that that's kindof that can be challenging for somebody
who themselves is experiencing all this emotionalchange and drama, and it's I think
it's I don't want to discount thepossibility that you know, it's it's easy
(09:33):
for parents to overlook this, anda lot of parents it's it's you're so
intensely feeling what you're feeling that youhope your kids are okay and you just
keep going. You got to listen, live another day. So yes,
it is very very understandable. AndI think if you had a team of
people around you, went on topeople a friend, keeping the teacher in
(09:56):
the loop, a grandparents, sportscoach, whoever, spending time with your
kids if they could, if youcould communicate with them, listen, if
you see any changes, if yousee anything different, any incidents that happened,
please let me know. Because they'rethe ones spending time with your kids
too, and because you're not thereas a parent, they're not trying to
behave and be good because they knowthat you're battling. There can be more
(10:18):
themselves when they're with granny or withAuntie so and so. So you have
to open make sure that you openthe door to feedback from those people and
know that those people are confident thatif they do give you feedback, you're
not going to snap at them orsay, oh, don't be stupid that
you know, of course he's notdoing that, or it's just the divorce.
You know, he'll get over it. Yeah, definitely if you initiate
(10:41):
that feedback and say, you know, we're really battling or whatever, however
much you want to divulge, butjust say, please feedback any incidences or
anything that happens that's out of theordinary, that's out of his nature or
her nature. So do you thinkit's always a good eye to set up
a session with a counselor or atherapist after you've told your child about the
(11:07):
divorce, so that they just haveone session just to kind of open the
door to future sessions. I wouldsuggest that possibly it is helpful, but
I don't think it's necessary. Ithink that a family they actually able to
handle what's going on if they takethe time to talk to their kids,
(11:33):
make time to spend with them andopen conversations with them. Sometimes it doesn't
have to be the mom of thedad. It could be the grandparents or
somebody else was involved in your life. Intimately, I think that a family
can provide that sort of support,but obviously a counselor as somebody who can
(11:54):
use that time widely and get toany points. But normally one session of
counseling it's helpful. But counseling normallyworks more within a relationship with that person
than just moving on. But ifyou're having these behaviors that you're concerned about,
then definitely going to a counselor forassession or two would be helpful.
(12:16):
Right, So you say a coupleof times you've talked about the importance of
taking the time and talking to thechildren. I was wondering if you have
suggestions about how to word questions sothat they're framed in a neutral way as
opposed to sometimes I think it's prettyeasy to very subtly criticize or criticize your
(12:41):
ex or something that's happened, andthat of when you do that, that
kind of shuts down the conversation.So what are some of your tips for
opening the door to a conversation ormaking your child feel safe about broaching topics
with you. I would suggest whatIt's very dependent on your relationship with your
(13:05):
child, but I would suggest conversationsabout the day, uh, and how
they felt what happened? And ifa child is saying, well, I
had fall out with somebody at recesstoday, then a mom or a dad
could ask a few more leading orprobing questions to find out what it was
(13:26):
what upset them. And normally thosethings are clues to deeper feelings and emotions.
Um, so what I'm saying isstart with a general and they're moving
towards more intimate feelings from the child. A big thing for me is emotional
intelligence. M do you mind ifI sort of include that in this So
(13:54):
as a teacher in education is importantfor me and I found it in a
recovery. Emotional intelligence is hugely important, and by that I mean a child
being able to read their feelings,to be able to talk about their feelings
and use a good vocabulary, andbeing able to express themselves. So a
(14:16):
mom or a dad could really helptheir child by coaching them in using good
vocabulary. So a child could sayI was angry today with my friend,
but we could teach them well,okay, you're angry, Let's find another
word that's a little bit more accurate. Were you just annoyed or were you
furious? And so already we canengage. Okay, it wasn't such a
(14:39):
big thing. She was just abit annoyed. But if she was furious,
okay, well that was quite astrong feeling. So let's see what's
underneath that feeling. Why were youfurious? And you may have found that
this morning at breakfast time, youa mom may have lost her temper and
this child went to school just feelingreally horrible. And so it's that outburst
(15:03):
towards a friend led back to thebreakfast time, which was because of something
else, do you follow me?So just being able to follow the leads
and talk and getting your child toopen up. But emotional intelligence helps the
child to do that because their childrenand they just have a limited ability and
limited vocabulary, right, And that'swhere working with your book would help them.
(15:26):
And we are going to come ontothat in just a moment, But
first we're going to take a shortbreak. You're listening to conversations about divorce,
and today we're talking about divorce recoveryfor children. My guest today is
Natalie Knox. Natalie is a primaryschool teacher and has been a lay counselor
for children in crisis, including generaluncle trauma counseling and specialized divorce recovery counseling.
(15:52):
Natalie is also the author of TheMending Chronicles of Liam and Emily.
It's a divorce recovery journey that's aimedat kids six to twelve and Emily,
your book has biblical references in eachchapter, and I was wondering if you
could share with our listeners how yourfaith has helped you in your work with
children. So I found that whenwe are in times of crisis, people
(16:21):
tend to turn to spirituality because they'relooking for something beyond themselves to help them
in a situation. They look withinthemselves to a system and help them.
And I found that while in myupbringing, I was brought up as a
Christian, and so as an adult, I found that having my faith has
(16:42):
been able to help me to offerhope and support to people who are in
terms of crisis. The divorce recoveryunit that I had set up was under
the umbrella of a church, sobeing able to offer spirituality alongside the divorce
recovery was acceptable, and people whowere attaining that knew that that was dead.
(17:03):
I found it in the Bible.There are loads of scriptures and references
to God helping us to how tofind peace, to keys to overcoming anger,
helping us with sadness, and allthe main emotions that we experience when
we are going through trauma. I'vejust found that they are helpful and supportive
(17:26):
and encouraging things in the Bible andin your book. What I found was
for somebody, if they felt thatthey didn't have the level or couldn't articulate
the emotional intelligence that you were talkingabout before the break, then working through
(17:47):
the book with your child would bea way for you to develop that and
enhance your own knowledge about emotional experience. Yes, definitely. So each chapter
focuses on an emotion. And atthe beginning of East chapter, I have
a page of vocabulary which is beautifullypresented very doodly, and a mother or
(18:08):
a father, or an aunt ora grandparent, whatever adult is going through
the book with a child would beable to use those words to help the
children understand what they mean and thenuse some of them in conversation. And
do you recommend working through the bookin chronological order or do you think that
(18:29):
it's good for parents good jump fromthis chapter to this chapter depending on what
the child is experiencing at the time. I would say a child would benefit
from every chapter. But Liam andEmily's story starts at the beginning of chapter
one and works through to chapter seven. So chapter one we have mom and
(18:51):
dad telling Liam and Emily that they'redivorcing, and we move along and there's
a new man that comes along they'vehad to move house, and then the
last chapter dad remarries and there's astep sibling. So it's taken sort of
a progressive journey, and the childrensort of follow Liam and Emily's story.
(19:14):
If a parent wanted to jump around, I guess they could, but the
child wouldn't benefit from the story ofLiam and Emily. And I found that
my stories were wonderful for helping childrento relate to the emotion and feeling really
comfortable with actually saying gosh. Ifelt like that too, So I would
say that chronologically it's it's better.But if a parent wanted to say,
(19:38):
well, let my child's really angry, let's focus on anger, the activities
at the back would be very helpful. Right. So you had mentioned the
book working through it with a trustedadult. What do you suggest if in
a situation where let's say my soonto BX was telling our child something very
(20:00):
different than what I was telling them. That's very difficult and it's very common.
Yes, definitely, definitely, Um, it's it's hard. Um I
would I don't I don't know.I would say, if you're working through
(20:25):
this book with your child, thenyou need to really stick with your story.
If your husband's working through the bookwith his yeah, or maybe not
even working through the book at all. But like say your child comes back
home and says, well, Dadsays that what you're telling me is a
lot of nonsense and I shouldn't listento you. That might be an exaggeration,
(20:48):
but you know, and but Icould see that happening. Definitely,
Yes, So you know, inin some of the activities of book,
it says like write down what happenedwhen you, for example, got really
angry and or write down when youfelt really sad. And they're going to
(21:10):
write down the events that have happened, and as we know, everybody standing
around that event will see it differently. So I think the focus really is
from my book, and for achild working through the book would be what
is your story? What is yourunderstanding? This is your journey, what
was your experience and how did youfeel? So the book is trying to
(21:30):
get the kids to process their ownemotions, through their own story, through
their own eyes. So I wouldsay that mom and dad need to really
just give the child that space.That's safe space, that's the book to
be able to write down their perspectiveof things, which is quite hard because
there's so much emotion attached to itand oh no, that's not what happened
(21:53):
or I didn't mean it when Isaid it like that, So it's hard.
So the actually you could say toyour child, wow, it sounds
like you're really confused about this,and that's not I can see where that
wouldn't be a great feeling for you. That's that. Do you want to
talk more about that? Yes,And so that's constructive. It's opening up
(22:18):
a space with a child to saymore importantly, I think, well I
felt like this, and I thinkyou have a great achievement if a child
is able to express to you Ifelt like this because you did that right.
And then you've you've kept the dooropen for that dialogue and you haven't
jumped in and shut them down andsay, well, you know, your
(22:40):
mom doesn't know what she's talking aboutwhen she disagrees with me, or she
you know what, she's been disagreeingwith me for sixteen years. I'm not
surprised, so it would be it'sso much more constructive to say, wow,
that must be confused. I cansee where that's confusing for you to
have mom and dad tell you tocompletely different things. So very much so.
(23:06):
But I think the focus of mybook is helping the children, and
so when in the Parent Guard,there's an ebook for parents that I sort
of chat through parents how to workthrough the book and give them examples of
questions they could ask and just helpfultips. And one of the things I've
said is when they work through thebook, you need to be in a
(23:30):
pretty decent mood and they shouldn't beinterrupted. They should find a quiet spot,
because we want to create a safespace for them to be able to
open up, examine how they're feeling, and work through the book with their
emotions. So trying to keep everybodyaround them calm is helpful. And then
I was thinking, too, itwould be helpful for a parent to read
(23:52):
it through first so that they canthey know what's coming in the chatter their
working on, so that they're alittle bit familiar with the material and could
be prepared for questions or even preparequestions that they could talk to their child
about. Definitely. What I didalso say in My parent Guard is some
(24:18):
of the things that happen in thestory could actually trigger an adult. So
you need to have read through thisfirst so that you if you are triggered
and you have like anxiety, oryou just quite star start sobbing, or
something's triggered inside of you, thatyou can work through this before actually getting
to that part in the book withyour child. And if I mean it's
(24:41):
it's very emotional, it's very touching. The questions in the book and the
activities that they have the potential todo that to anyone. Yeah, I'm
glad you raise that, because thatwas one of my questions is that you
know, you have to be notyour emotional turmoil. You have to kind
(25:02):
of be able to step out ofthat so that you can be this have
this calm and meaningful dialogue with yourchild, and your child isn't going to
want to see you breaking down intofloods of tears or hysterics. That's right,
and that's why I also say sometimesit's nice for like granny to work
(25:25):
through the book with the child becausegranny seems to be out of the situation.
If granny's not too biased, rightyou know, according to or for
an older child to work through itby themselves right, and a younger children
can too if they have a goodlevel of reading m if what I also
(25:47):
said in the parent Guard is dependingon how you work with your child with
homework could also be an indication ofhow you're going to work through this book
together. I mean for me myone son, um, we would just
end up arguing. Do homework justalways thinks like that, So in that
situation, it's not recommended for meto work through something as as sensitive as
(26:08):
his emotions. It needs to besomebody else, right, And in some
ways, I having a third partylike a grandmother or an aunt or another
trusted person because they're not in thatdirect involvement with the divorce, it can
make it easier, I think fora child to talk to them about it.
(26:33):
Yes, And the focus is thechild. The focus is giving them
that safe space to process their emotionsso that as they grow into teenagers and
adults that they've dealt with issues thatthat come up through a separation of divorce
and a family. Um So I'veheard that some parents, some people,
(26:56):
when they are going to have theconversation and with their kids about mom and
dad ending their marriage, they havedone that a conversation intentionally without mentioning the
word divorce, because divorce is sucha triggering word and it carries all these
it triggers all these assumptions that we'vetalked about. Do you think that that's
(27:18):
a helpful strategy or do you thinkthat parents should just say call it what
it is. I think it dependson the child and your family. You
could end up with a situation wherethe child doesn't want to say divorce because
you haven't said it, and soyou know, they're not quite sure what
to say or what things are,and that can be hindering too. So
(27:45):
I can see the value in justusing the word. But if you have
a situation where a child has witnesseda very traumatic divorce and now you say
the word divorce and gosh are goingto go through that, I would see
the value and rather using another word, right, And that's where so I
like what you said there, andthat's the value in your book of having
(28:07):
your vocabulary words there, because again, oftentimes when we're going through a situation
for the first time, even weas we as adults, don't have the
vocabulary to use that's rant and havingthe right word gives us power. It
does because it makes us more comfortabletalking about the situation, or it allows
(28:33):
us to be able to express what'sgoing on inside of us. So,
I mean, I live in Spain, and I can see the frustration I
have when especially in a for example, a dentist or a doctor's appointment,
where I'm feeling a bit anxious andI need to speak in Spanish and I
can't say what I need to sayright, it's not good for me.
(28:56):
But whereas a film with an Englishdoctor, I can us to relax and
say what I need to say.So I can see that translate into a
child's life where they just don't havethe vocabulary or the means to be able
to say what they need to say. But if they've been given some tools,
they can say, mom, Iwas really disappointed. I mean,
that's a nice word, disappointed,and I was really frustrated. A child
(29:19):
could just say I was angry,but disappointed and frustrated. That gives us
an insight into how the child isfeeling. Why are they frustrated because I
actually wanted to do this and youdidn't give them a choice, Or they're
disappointed because they had really had theirhopes on that and now things have turned
out like this. So I lovethat analogy you just gave of going to
the doctors in Spain and not havingthe words to be able to express.
(29:44):
I think that that really gives usa great understanding of what our children might
be experiencing. And we have allthe words and we talk to them all
the time. We blab away andI can't quite otherwise to just end up
chatting or they just end up withjowing. So Natalie, I know that
(30:07):
we could continue, but we areup on time. It's been lovely chatting
to you and sharing my book andtalking about so thank you so much for
sharing your expertise around understanding children's emotions. I know that this is going to
be really helpful. Thank you.This is my guest today as Natalie Knox.
Natalie is a primary school teacher andhas been the lay counselor for children
(30:30):
in crisis, including general on calltrauma counseling and specialized divorce recovery counseling.
Natalie is also the author of TheMending Chronicles of Liam and Emily, which
is a divorce recovery journey that's aimedat children ages six through twelve, and
the website for that is Mending Chroniclesdot com. I will put a link
(30:52):
to it in the show page.Guiding your child through your divorce is an
ongoing end up. This is nota one and done conversation. It's about
constantly checking in and based on mypersonal experience, you may be having these
conversations many years after divorce. Youknow your children the best, tune into
(31:15):
your intuition and listen when it's tellingyou that something is going on. I
think the biggest challenge in all ofthis is having these conversations in a way
that fosters your child's relationship with theirother parents and doesn't make your child feel
that they have to make a choicebetween the two of you. No one
does this perfectly, and especially inthe early days when you're dealing with your
(31:40):
own trauma, it calls for developingreally good listening skills, being open to
receiving criticisms and feedback about yourself andnot being afraid to admit when you could
have handled a situation better. Iwant to thank you for listening today.
If you hop over to my blogSince my Divorce dot com, you'll find
a son apsis of this conversation andyou can follow me Since my Divorce on
(32:02):
Twitter and on Facebook. And Ihope you'll join us again next time for
more conversations about divorce
Getting a divorce. Even thinking aboutgetting a divorce can be overwhelming, scary,
and sometimes exciting. Join divorce coachand mediator Mandy Walker for conversations about
divorce. The more you know,the easier it will be to make your
divorce healthier, less trustful, andto put it behind you. Here's Mandy.
(00:23):
Welcome to conversations about divorce. I'mMandy Walker, and today we're talking
about divorce recovery for kids. Now. We often hear that children are resilient
and adaptable, and I also hearparents say that their kids know the marriage
is ending, but they don't reallyknow much about what's been going on.
The parents think that they've kept theirdisagreements private and they've shouldered their kids from
(00:47):
all the visible signs of a troubledmarriage. And I hear from parents that
the children seem to be doing fine, they're just carrying on as normal.
But is that what's really happening.Even if you think you've protected your kids,
they usually know that something is goingon, that something is not right
(01:08):
because their normal has changed and they'reseeing changes in routines at home. They
may be carrying on with their usual, but is that because they're trying to
keep a lid on their emotions.They may be struggling to label what it
is that they're feeling, and theysurely don't want to cause a disagreement between
(01:30):
mom and dad. Here to helpus understand more about helping our children cope
with divorce is Natalie Knox. Natalieis a primary school teacher and has been
a lay counselor for children in crisis, including general uncle trauma counseling and specialized
divorce recovery counseling. Natalie is alsothe author of The Mending Chronicles of Liam
(01:56):
and Emily, a divorce recovery journeythat's aimed children ages six through twelve.
Welcome, Natalie, thank you,Thank you so much for having me on
your show. Well, I'm reallyexcited to have you and I'm glad that
we're talking about this topic. Iwanted to start off by saying, in
your note to parents at the beginningof your book The Mending Chronicles, you
(02:20):
talk about being surprised yourself by themisconceptions that children had about divorce. I
wondered if you could share some ofthe most common misconceptions that you've encountered.
Yes, of course, So themisconceptions come up, often like what you
were saying earlier, where things arehidden and half conversations are heard, and
(02:44):
so kids end up making up theirown truth for what they think and perceive
is going on. And in mytime counseling children of divorce, I found
the most common ones are dad ormom, whoever it is who leaves,
left because they don't love them anymore. They are often afraid that the other
parents who stayed with them will alsoleave. They often feel guilty that possibly
(03:09):
it was their fault that they've donesomething. They often think back to big
events that may have happened where they'vefelt that they had a role in playing
and the thing going wrong, orthen they sort of say, well he
left because of that, and yeah. Those sort of other most main misconceptions
(03:30):
that children have, although there's justso many of them, but I found
that those are the most common,right, And I think you may have
mentioned this in the lead up there. I was wondering if where those misconceptions
come from. They come mainly fromthe stories that the children are making up
themselves, or from half heard theyheard conversations. Definitely, because as like
(03:55):
us adults, if you think ofa situation as going on. You tell
yourself story, you tell yourself yourtruth. And so children are are different.
They see what's going on and theytell themselves, this is what's happening,
and it's because of this or that, just as we do right.
And I found with my own personalexperience that many of my children's assumptions about
(04:21):
what was going to happen were basedon what they knew from their friends whose
parents had divorced. And so Ithink as soon as they see that the
marriage or their parents are maybe struggling, they go to that place of you
know, this is where my friendso and so is and her parents are
(04:42):
so mad with each other they won'ttalk, or she gets dropped off at
school in the morning by one parentand picked up by the by the other
parent, and they're always arguing.They just kind of make these They just
take those experiences of their friends andthink that that's what's going to be there,
that's right. And a lot offear comes out of that, especially
(05:03):
little girls, where they see what'shappening and they just end up with this
really big fear which goes into everypart of their life. So, um,
so, why girl, why girls? Especially do you know the answer
to that, or is that justsomething that you've observed. It's just something
(05:24):
I'm observed, Like a lot ofboys have anger, um and they act
out on that a lot of aggression, and girls tend to be more fearful.
Although it's not it's not a rule. I saw a little boy who
he was just too scared to showeron his own and had to have his
mom sitting in the bathroom that hewas just consumed with fear. So there
(05:45):
was an example of a little boy. So it's not necessarily that, but
I just find that often the girlshave fear. And do you think that,
um, you know the little boywho showering, I mean, that
could be some separation anxiety that's beengoing on for many, many years,
(06:06):
but then the divorce exaggerates or exasperatesanything that was going on before. That's
right, if you think of hislittle world, I mean I can't remember
his age because about nine or tenyears old, everything he knew in those
ten years suddenly had changed and waschanging, and it was so scary for
(06:30):
him because he had no control overit. He wasn't involved in any of
the decision making that you know,often kids have to move home giveaway pets
say about to friends. Everything changesand if you think of our of us
as adults, when we go throughthat, it just upsets us. It
makes us fearful. We think ofthings that are coming in the future,
(06:51):
and we just suffer from anxiety.And it's just compounded with children where they
are just so out of control ofwhat's going on their world. So how
can a parent tell when their childis struggling? I mean, I think
that there are some children that willtell parents, but other times, like
(07:13):
you know, where the children aretrying to not make more trouble because they
perceive that they've started this trouble,so they're trying not to make more trouble,
but they acquire or just making makingout that everything is fine. How
what are some of the tell talesigns that parents should look for that their
(07:34):
child is really needing more help.I think every parent knows their child,
So the first step would be toslow down and just invest time in being
with them. And by that Imean making time for conversations, making times
to check in and say how areyou, and leaving spaces for the children
(07:56):
to pluck up the courage to sayI'm feeling this or ask questions. But
I think things like nightmares, Imean that's a subconscious thing. If your
child is continually having nightmares, there'ssomething that's in the back of their mind
that's bothering them. If they're nota child who has nightmares normally bedwetting,
(08:20):
if they are beyond the age ofthat and it started up again, anything
that's sort of not normal, Iwould say parents take notes, and sometimes
it doesn't have to be a bigthing. It can just be a different
to change. Often children withdraw andit's hard to connect with them and get
them conversing and talking to you.But if they're an outgoing child, or
(08:43):
like lots of tantrums and just asmall thing that just sparks them off with
huge angry outbursts, things that they'renot normally doing. If they start then
I think a parent, could yourealize I need to make time to talk
to them a personality. And thenfor child that's eleven twelve, if they
start self harming things like that,it's a big warning sign, right,
(09:09):
So you really have to be payingclose attention to your child and observing them.
And I think that that that's kindof that can be challenging for somebody
who themselves is experiencing all this emotionalchange and drama, and it's I think
it's I don't want to discount thepossibility that you know, it's it's easy
(09:33):
for parents to overlook this, anda lot of parents it's it's you're so
intensely feeling what you're feeling that youhope your kids are okay and you just
keep going. You got to listen, live another day. So yes,
it is very very understandable. AndI think if you had a team of
people around you, went on topeople a friend, keeping the teacher in
(09:56):
the loop, a grandparents, sportscoach, whoever, spending time with your
kids if they could, if youcould communicate with them, listen, if
you see any changes, if yousee anything different, any incidents that happened,
please let me know. Because they'rethe ones spending time with your kids
too, and because you're not thereas a parent, they're not trying to
behave and be good because they knowthat you're battling. There can be more
(10:18):
themselves when they're with granny or withAuntie so and so. So you have
to open make sure that you openthe door to feedback from those people and
know that those people are confident thatif they do give you feedback, you're
not going to snap at them orsay, oh, don't be stupid that
you know, of course he's notdoing that, or it's just the divorce.
You know, he'll get over it. Yeah, definitely if you initiate
(10:41):
that feedback and say, you know, we're really battling or whatever, however
much you want to divulge, butjust say, please feedback any incidences or
anything that happens that's out of theordinary, that's out of his nature or
her nature. So do you thinkit's always a good eye to set up
a session with a counselor or atherapist after you've told your child about the
(11:07):
divorce, so that they just haveone session just to kind of open the
door to future sessions. I wouldsuggest that possibly it is helpful, but
I don't think it's necessary. Ithink that a family they actually able to
handle what's going on if they takethe time to talk to their kids,
(11:33):
make time to spend with them andopen conversations with them. Sometimes it doesn't
have to be the mom of thedad. It could be the grandparents or
somebody else was involved in your life. Intimately, I think that a family
can provide that sort of support,but obviously a counselor as somebody who can
(11:54):
use that time widely and get toany points. But normally one session of
counseling it's helpful. But counseling normallyworks more within a relationship with that person
than just moving on. But ifyou're having these behaviors that you're concerned about,
then definitely going to a counselor forassession or two would be helpful.
(12:16):
Right, So you say a coupleof times you've talked about the importance of
taking the time and talking to thechildren. I was wondering if you have
suggestions about how to word questions sothat they're framed in a neutral way as
opposed to sometimes I think it's prettyeasy to very subtly criticize or criticize your
(12:41):
ex or something that's happened, andthat of when you do that, that
kind of shuts down the conversation.So what are some of your tips for
opening the door to a conversation ormaking your child feel safe about broaching topics
with you. I would suggest whatIt's very dependent on your relationship with your
(13:05):
child, but I would suggest conversationsabout the day, uh, and how
they felt what happened? And ifa child is saying, well, I
had fall out with somebody at recesstoday, then a mom or a dad
could ask a few more leading orprobing questions to find out what it was
(13:26):
what upset them. And normally thosethings are clues to deeper feelings and emotions.
Um, so what I'm saying isstart with a general and they're moving
towards more intimate feelings from the child. A big thing for me is emotional
intelligence. M do you mind ifI sort of include that in this So
(13:54):
as a teacher in education is importantfor me and I found it in a
recovery. Emotional intelligence is hugely important, and by that I mean a child
being able to read their feelings,to be able to talk about their feelings
and use a good vocabulary, andbeing able to express themselves. So a
(14:16):
mom or a dad could really helptheir child by coaching them in using good
vocabulary. So a child could sayI was angry today with my friend,
but we could teach them well,okay, you're angry, Let's find another
word that's a little bit more accurate. Were you just annoyed or were you
furious? And so already we canengage. Okay, it wasn't such a
(14:39):
big thing. She was just abit annoyed. But if she was furious,
okay, well that was quite astrong feeling. So let's see what's
underneath that feeling. Why were youfurious? And you may have found that
this morning at breakfast time, youa mom may have lost her temper and
this child went to school just feelingreally horrible. And so it's that outburst
(15:03):
towards a friend led back to thebreakfast time, which was because of something
else, do you follow me?So just being able to follow the leads
and talk and getting your child toopen up. But emotional intelligence helps the
child to do that because their childrenand they just have a limited ability and
limited vocabulary, right, And that'swhere working with your book would help them.
(15:26):
And we are going to come ontothat in just a moment, But
first we're going to take a shortbreak. You're listening to conversations about divorce,
and today we're talking about divorce recoveryfor children. My guest today is
Natalie Knox. Natalie is a primaryschool teacher and has been a lay counselor
for children in crisis, including generaluncle trauma counseling and specialized divorce recovery counseling.
(15:52):
Natalie is also the author of TheMending Chronicles of Liam and Emily.
It's a divorce recovery journey that's aimedat kids six to twelve and Emily,
your book has biblical references in eachchapter, and I was wondering if you
could share with our listeners how yourfaith has helped you in your work with
children. So I found that whenwe are in times of crisis, people
(16:21):
tend to turn to spirituality because they'relooking for something beyond themselves to help them
in a situation. They look withinthemselves to a system and help them.
And I found that while in myupbringing, I was brought up as a
Christian, and so as an adult, I found that having my faith has
(16:42):
been able to help me to offerhope and support to people who are in
terms of crisis. The divorce recoveryunit that I had set up was under
the umbrella of a church, sobeing able to offer spirituality alongside the divorce
recovery was acceptable, and people whowere attaining that knew that that was dead.
(17:03):
I found it in the Bible.There are loads of scriptures and references
to God helping us to how tofind peace, to keys to overcoming anger,
helping us with sadness, and allthe main emotions that we experience when
we are going through trauma. I'vejust found that they are helpful and supportive
(17:26):
and encouraging things in the Bible andin your book. What I found was
for somebody, if they felt thatthey didn't have the level or couldn't articulate
the emotional intelligence that you were talkingabout before the break, then working through
(17:47):
the book with your child would bea way for you to develop that and
enhance your own knowledge about emotional experience. Yes, definitely. So each chapter
focuses on an emotion. And atthe beginning of East chapter, I have
a page of vocabulary which is beautifullypresented very doodly, and a mother or
(18:08):
a father, or an aunt ora grandparent, whatever adult is going through
the book with a child would beable to use those words to help the
children understand what they mean and thenuse some of them in conversation. And
do you recommend working through the bookin chronological order or do you think that
(18:29):
it's good for parents good jump fromthis chapter to this chapter depending on what
the child is experiencing at the time. I would say a child would benefit
from every chapter. But Liam andEmily's story starts at the beginning of chapter
one and works through to chapter seven. So chapter one we have mom and
(18:51):
dad telling Liam and Emily that they'redivorcing, and we move along and there's
a new man that comes along they'vehad to move house, and then the
last chapter dad remarries and there's astep sibling. So it's taken sort of
a progressive journey, and the childrensort of follow Liam and Emily's story.
(19:14):
If a parent wanted to jump around, I guess they could, but the
child wouldn't benefit from the story ofLiam and Emily. And I found that
my stories were wonderful for helping childrento relate to the emotion and feeling really
comfortable with actually saying gosh. Ifelt like that too, So I would
say that chronologically it's it's better.But if a parent wanted to say,
(19:38):
well, let my child's really angry, let's focus on anger, the activities
at the back would be very helpful. Right. So you had mentioned the
book working through it with a trustedadult. What do you suggest if in
a situation where let's say my soonto BX was telling our child something very
(20:00):
different than what I was telling them. That's very difficult and it's very common.
Yes, definitely, definitely, Um, it's it's hard. Um I
would I don't I don't know.I would say, if you're working through
(20:25):
this book with your child, thenyou need to really stick with your story.
If your husband's working through the bookwith his yeah, or maybe not
even working through the book at all. But like say your child comes back
home and says, well, Dadsays that what you're telling me is a
lot of nonsense and I shouldn't listento you. That might be an exaggeration,
(20:48):
but you know, and but Icould see that happening. Definitely,
Yes, So you know, inin some of the activities of book,
it says like write down what happenedwhen you, for example, got really
angry and or write down when youfelt really sad. And they're going to
(21:10):
write down the events that have happened, and as we know, everybody standing
around that event will see it differently. So I think the focus really is
from my book, and for achild working through the book would be what
is your story? What is yourunderstanding? This is your journey, what
was your experience and how did youfeel? So the book is trying to
(21:30):
get the kids to process their ownemotions, through their own story, through
their own eyes. So I wouldsay that mom and dad need to really
just give the child that space.That's safe space, that's the book to
be able to write down their perspectiveof things, which is quite hard because
there's so much emotion attached to itand oh no, that's not what happened
(21:53):
or I didn't mean it when Isaid it like that, So it's hard.
So the actually you could say toyour child, wow, it sounds
like you're really confused about this,and that's not I can see where that
wouldn't be a great feeling for you. That's that. Do you want to
talk more about that? Yes,And so that's constructive. It's opening up
(22:18):
a space with a child to saymore importantly, I think, well I
felt like this, and I thinkyou have a great achievement if a child
is able to express to you Ifelt like this because you did that right.
And then you've you've kept the dooropen for that dialogue and you haven't
jumped in and shut them down andsay, well, you know, your
(22:40):
mom doesn't know what she's talking aboutwhen she disagrees with me, or she
you know what, she's been disagreeingwith me for sixteen years. I'm not
surprised, so it would be it'sso much more constructive to say, wow,
that must be confused. I cansee where that's confusing for you to
have mom and dad tell you tocompletely different things. So very much so.
(23:06):
But I think the focus of mybook is helping the children, and
so when in the Parent Guard,there's an ebook for parents that I sort
of chat through parents how to workthrough the book and give them examples of
questions they could ask and just helpfultips. And one of the things I've
said is when they work through thebook, you need to be in a
(23:30):
pretty decent mood and they shouldn't beinterrupted. They should find a quiet spot,
because we want to create a safespace for them to be able to
open up, examine how they're feeling, and work through the book with their
emotions. So trying to keep everybodyaround them calm is helpful. And then
I was thinking, too, itwould be helpful for a parent to read
(23:52):
it through first so that they canthey know what's coming in the chatter their
working on, so that they're alittle bit familiar with the material and could
be prepared for questions or even preparequestions that they could talk to their child
about. Definitely. What I didalso say in My parent Guard is some
(24:18):
of the things that happen in thestory could actually trigger an adult. So
you need to have read through thisfirst so that you if you are triggered
and you have like anxiety, oryou just quite star start sobbing, or
something's triggered inside of you, thatyou can work through this before actually getting
to that part in the book withyour child. And if I mean it's
(24:41):
it's very emotional, it's very touching. The questions in the book and the
activities that they have the potential todo that to anyone. Yeah, I'm
glad you raise that, because thatwas one of my questions is that you
know, you have to be notyour emotional turmoil. You have to kind
(25:02):
of be able to step out ofthat so that you can be this have
this calm and meaningful dialogue with yourchild, and your child isn't going to
want to see you breaking down intofloods of tears or hysterics. That's right,
and that's why I also say sometimesit's nice for like granny to work
(25:25):
through the book with the child becausegranny seems to be out of the situation.
If granny's not too biased, rightyou know, according to or for
an older child to work through itby themselves right, and a younger children
can too if they have a goodlevel of reading m if what I also
(25:47):
said in the parent Guard is dependingon how you work with your child with
homework could also be an indication ofhow you're going to work through this book
together. I mean for me myone son, um, we would just
end up arguing. Do homework justalways thinks like that, So in that
situation, it's not recommended for meto work through something as as sensitive as
(26:08):
his emotions. It needs to besomebody else, right, And in some
ways, I having a third partylike a grandmother or an aunt or another
trusted person because they're not in thatdirect involvement with the divorce, it can
make it easier, I think fora child to talk to them about it.
(26:33):
Yes, And the focus is thechild. The focus is giving them
that safe space to process their emotionsso that as they grow into teenagers and
adults that they've dealt with issues thatthat come up through a separation of divorce
and a family. Um So I'veheard that some parents, some people,
(26:56):
when they are going to have theconversation and with their kids about mom and
dad ending their marriage, they havedone that a conversation intentionally without mentioning the
word divorce, because divorce is sucha triggering word and it carries all these
it triggers all these assumptions that we'vetalked about. Do you think that that's
(27:18):
a helpful strategy or do you thinkthat parents should just say call it what
it is. I think it dependson the child and your family. You
could end up with a situation wherethe child doesn't want to say divorce because
you haven't said it, and soyou know, they're not quite sure what
to say or what things are,and that can be hindering too. So
(27:45):
I can see the value in justusing the word. But if you have
a situation where a child has witnesseda very traumatic divorce and now you say
the word divorce and gosh are goingto go through that, I would see
the value and rather using another word, right, And that's where so I
like what you said there, andthat's the value in your book of having
(28:07):
your vocabulary words there, because again, oftentimes when we're going through a situation
for the first time, even weas we as adults, don't have the
vocabulary to use that's rant and havingthe right word gives us power. It
does because it makes us more comfortabletalking about the situation, or it allows
(28:33):
us to be able to express what'sgoing on inside of us. So,
I mean, I live in Spain, and I can see the frustration I
have when especially in a for example, a dentist or a doctor's appointment,
where I'm feeling a bit anxious andI need to speak in Spanish and I
can't say what I need to sayright, it's not good for me.
(28:56):
But whereas a film with an Englishdoctor, I can us to relax and
say what I need to say.So I can see that translate into a
child's life where they just don't havethe vocabulary or the means to be able
to say what they need to say. But if they've been given some tools,
they can say, mom, Iwas really disappointed. I mean,
that's a nice word, disappointed,and I was really frustrated. A child
(29:19):
could just say I was angry,but disappointed and frustrated. That gives us
an insight into how the child isfeeling. Why are they frustrated because I
actually wanted to do this and youdidn't give them a choice, Or they're
disappointed because they had really had theirhopes on that and now things have turned
out like this. So I lovethat analogy you just gave of going to
the doctors in Spain and not havingthe words to be able to express.
(29:44):
I think that that really gives usa great understanding of what our children might
be experiencing. And we have allthe words and we talk to them all
the time. We blab away andI can't quite otherwise to just end up
chatting or they just end up withjowing. So Natalie, I know that
(30:07):
we could continue, but we areup on time. It's been lovely chatting
to you and sharing my book andtalking about so thank you so much for
sharing your expertise around understanding children's emotions. I know that this is going to
be really helpful. Thank you.This is my guest today as Natalie Knox.
Natalie is a primary school teacher andhas been the lay counselor for children
(30:30):
in crisis, including general on calltrauma counseling and specialized divorce recovery counseling.
Natalie is also the author of TheMending Chronicles of Liam and Emily, which
is a divorce recovery journey that's aimedat children ages six through twelve, and
the website for that is Mending Chroniclesdot com. I will put a link
(30:52):
to it in the show page.Guiding your child through your divorce is an
ongoing end up. This is nota one and done conversation. It's about
constantly checking in and based on mypersonal experience, you may be having these
conversations many years after divorce. Youknow your children the best, tune into
(31:15):
your intuition and listen when it's tellingyou that something is going on. I
think the biggest challenge in all ofthis is having these conversations in a way
that fosters your child's relationship with theirother parents and doesn't make your child feel
that they have to make a choicebetween the two of you. No one
does this perfectly, and especially inthe early days when you're dealing with your
(31:40):
own trauma, it calls for developingreally good listening skills, being open to
receiving criticisms and feedback about yourself andnot being afraid to admit when you could
have handled a situation better. Iwant to thank you for listening today.
If you hop over to my blogSince my Divorce dot com, you'll find
a son apsis of this conversation andyou can follow me Since my Divorce on
(32:02):
Twitter and on Facebook. And Ihope you'll join us again next time for
more conversations about divorce
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