December 12, 2024 • 35 mins
This week we discuss the real life murders of an entire family that inspired the famous book "In Cold Blood" and the following movie.
To access earlier episodes of Corpus Delicti and to help support the show, please visit patreon.com/corpusdelicti
Our merch store can be found at teepublic.com/stores/corpus-delicti-podcast
Music by:
Kai Engel
"Daemones"
Blooper music by:
Art of Escapism
"Coal Miners"
This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ or send a letter to Creative Commons, PO Box 1866, Mountain View, CA 94042, USA.
Sources:
Nov 12, 2009, page 1 - Garden City Telegram at Newspapers.comNov 16, 1959, page 1 - Garden City Telegram at Newspapers.comNov 29, 1961, page 33 - The Daily Oklahoman at Newspapers.comClutter Family Murders | Garden City Police Department (gcpolice.org)Apr 14, 1965, page 1 - Garden City Telegram at Newspapers.comCrimeArchives: The Clutter Family Murders | Biographies of Key Figures'Cold Blooded': New Doc Expands on 'In Cold Blood' (rollingstone.com)https://legendsofkansas.com/clutter-family-murders/Truman Capote: Biography, Writer, Author, NovelistThe Learning Network - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
To access earlier episodes of Corpus Delicti and to help support the show, please visit patreon.com/corpusdelicti
Our merch store can be found at teepublic.com/stores/corpus-delicti-podcast
Music by:
Kai Engel
"Daemones"
Blooper music by:
Art of Escapism
"Coal Miners"
This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ or send a letter to Creative Commons, PO Box 1866, Mountain View, CA 94042, USA.
Sources:
Nov 12, 2009, page 1 - Garden City Telegram at Newspapers.comNov 16, 1959, page 1 - Garden City Telegram at Newspapers.comNov 29, 1961, page 33 - The Daily Oklahoman at Newspapers.comClutter Family Murders | Garden City Police Department (gcpolice.org)Apr 14, 1965, page 1 - Garden City Telegram at Newspapers.comCrimeArchives: The Clutter Family Murders | Biographies of Key Figures'Cold Blooded': New Doc Expands on 'In Cold Blood' (rollingstone.com)https://legendsofkansas.com/clutter-family-murders/Truman Capote: Biography, Writer, Author, NovelistThe Learning Network - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Hey everyone, it's Jen, and this is Lindsay and this
is Corpustilicti the podcast, the final episode in our High
Profile series.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yes, which actually this is taking us right into our
brand new series. This one fits into both. So we
were like, you know what, this will close out one
and kick off the other. So here we are end
of High Profile taking us into True Crime Theater two.
We did True Crime Theater long long, long, long time ago,
(00:55):
and we are bringing it back. But this time it
is going to be movies, TV documentary, anything you can
see on a screen. So last time, I believe it
was just strictly movies. So movies, TV documentaries. So let's
go ahead and jump right in and close out High
(01:16):
Profile and start True Crime Theater two. So we are
going to start off in Holcombe, Kansas on November fifteenth
of nineteen fifty nine, where the entire Clutter family was
found murdered in their home.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Herbert aka Herb he was forty eight and his wife,
Bonnie's forty five. They were at home with her two teenagers,
Nancy and Kenyon. They had two daughters that were adults,
but those two didn't live at home now. Nancy sixteen
and Kenyon's fifteen.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Nancy.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
She's a straight A student at our high school, where
she was also in the band. She played clarinet. By
all accounts, she's a really great kid, and she's active
in four h She goes to church. She was actually
a really good cook. She loved music. She helped younger
kids with their music, and she also was in the
school play. Very very busy girl. A friend said, Nancy
(02:13):
was a freckled faced girl you would immediately like pretty
in a way, but not striking. She was wholesome and
in fact, at the time of the murder, Nancy had
just been voted by the faculty as the winner of
the school's citizenship award. Kenyon was the youngest of the
four kids and the only boy who was quiet. But
(02:33):
he was outdoorsy and hands on. He liked to hunt,
he did woodworking and worked on trucks. This kid's also athletic.
He played basketball and run track for school. He was
also on the honor roll.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So Herbert was a farmer, and a well known and
successful one at that. He graduated from Kansas State University
with a major in agriculture, and after school he bought
a bunch of land, married Bonnie built their ranch style
home and the farm was called River Valley Farm. He
specialized in growing wheat, but he did also have this
(03:08):
huge orchard full of fruit trees, and it was pretty successful.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
He had up to.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Eighteen farm hands at any given time. He was known
to have paid them well and he treated them very well. Also,
he was a very good employer. He was the first
president of the Kansas Association of Wheat Growers, a former
president of the National Association of Wheat Growers, president of
the board of directors of the Garden City Cooperative Equity Exchange,
(03:36):
and he was actually appointed by President Eisenhower in nineteen
fifty three to serve on the Federal Farm Credit Board.
So Aside from his job, he also was very active
at church. He was on the church's official board, the
Pastoral Relations Committee. He was a Sunday school teacher and
a chairman of the building Committee. Now Bonnie, she stayed
(03:58):
at home with the children, helped raise them from the home,
and she allegedly struggled deeply with depression after her children
were born. We say emphasis on allegedly because multiple sources
do say this, although the surviving family members dispute it.
She was active in the children's department at church.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
She taught the kids.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
She was a member of the Women's Society of Christian Service,
also a member of the garden clubs. So really you
can see this family is very active, they're very well known,
they're very respected.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
People know who they.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Are, and one family friend recalled they were the nicest
people you would ever meet.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
So on November fourteenth or fifteenth, which was the Saturday
night Sunday morning, in the middle of the night, the
family was fast asleep and two men snuck into the
home through an unlocked door. In being in the dark,
the intruders caused a bit of a stir and woke
up the family, not all at once, but one one.
(05:00):
This is not part of their plan. The plan was
actually to steal a safe, so the two men had
to act quickly. The intruders forced Bonnie and the kids
into the upstairs bathroom where they locked them in, and
they forced her into his office which was downstairs. But
there's yet another problem here. The intruders can't find the safe.
(05:25):
Surely it's in the office. Well, they look around and nope,
it wasn't. So they go around the house. They still
can't find the safe. They need more time, but now
they have three people locked in the bathroom and they're
gonna find a way out. So they go into the
bathroom and take Bonnie. They gag her, They tie her
(05:47):
hands in front of her and put her back into
the bed so she couldn't fight her scream. Then they
got Nancy. They didn't gag her, but they did put
her back on the bed with her arms tied behind
her back.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Then they got Herb and Kenyon and led them to
the basement, but not before gagging Kenyon as well, tying
his hands behind his back as well, And then they
used the extra rope to tie him to a pipe
on the ceiling in the furnace room. Then they changed
their mind. They cut him down, moved him to an
adjoining room where they placed him diagonally on the couch,
(06:23):
laying down on the couch, but nicely enough, they actually
put a pillow behind his head. And with herb they
bound and gagged him like the rest of the family,
and they forced him onto a mattress down in the basement.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
In the furnace room.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
One of the men the intruders stayed in the basement
to keep watch while the other went back to look
some more for the safe, but again there is no safe.
It just was not there. The pair agreed no witnesses,
they've seen too much, and one man went over to
herb cut his throat and also shot him in the
(07:00):
The remaining three family members were all shot to death
with a single shotgun blast to the head.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
The lead detective.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Recalled about Bonnie, specifically saying she'd been tied too, but differently,
with her hands in front of her so that she
looked as if she was praying. The cord around her wrists,
ran down to her ankles, which were bound together, then
ran on down to the bottom of the bed where
it was tied to the footboard. A very complicated, artful
(07:28):
piece of work. She'd been shot point blank in the
side of the hat. Her eyes were open, wide open,
as if she was still looking at the killer, because
she must have had to watch him do it aim
the gun. Now, that cord that they're referencing there was
actually from their curtains, so they took the.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Rope, the cord of rope that.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
You used to tie the curtains back, and that's what
they used to tie her.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
But they can't leave empty handed, so they took a
portable radio, binoculars, and some cash. Now the cash total
to just under fifty dollars, so this isn't the big
payday that they're looking for. They were careful as they
could be and took the shotgun shells with them and
fled again as the nineteen fifty So they're trying to
leave as little trace evidence as possible. So let's get
(08:14):
to the actual investigation. The family was discovered at nine
am on Sunday by two of Nancy's friends who came
by the house. Now, of course immediately they called the police.
The friends were going to go to church with Nancy,
so that's why they were over there. They went into
the unlocked house, didn't hear anything when they should have,
(08:35):
and got suspicious and went to Nancy's room and there
they found her. The evidence found was only one bloody
boot print and that was it. The house wasn't ransacked
or anything like that, and they came in through an
unlocked door, so there's not going to be any forced entry.
No one, thank goodness, was sexually assaulted. The funerals themselves
(08:58):
were packed. Parents they were buried in the middle of
the plot with their two children on either side.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
So of course this upset the town because keep in mind,
this is a well known, well established family, and according
to a neighbor quote, no one seems to understand why
this happened. The Clutters were real boosters here, so they're
just really having a hard time trying to understand what
the motive would be. But of course it scares everyone.
It's a very small town. They're locking their doors, they're
(09:29):
staying inside, and it didn't take long for the news
to take over nationally because again, people are really surprised
how this could happen in this rural area in Kansas.
So let's put it in perspective. Nancy and Kenyon's high school.
There's only eighty seven students in the entire high school.
That's not just the graduating class, that's all of it.
(09:51):
That's very very small. So it's this town where everyone
knows everyone who would do such a thing. Meanwhile, investigators
are questioning any and everyone who knew the family, and
they were able to put together the following timeline. So
at nine pm on Saturday the fourteenth, Herb Clutter had
a phone call with his business partner. At ten thirty,
(10:14):
a boyfriend of Nancy's who was named Bobby Rupp, left
the home. He was briefly considered a suspect because he
was the last one at the home, but he was
quickly ruled out. In fact, they were supposed to be
Bobby and Nancy were supposed to be out on a
date that night, and he felt guilty that if they
would have kept that date, she would not have been
(10:34):
home when this happened. And he says, quote, we were
planning on going to a midnight movie on Saturday night,
and Herbs suggested that we go on Friday night. Had
we not gone on Friday night and gone on Saturday night,
how much different things might have been.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Now the business.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Partner and the boyfriend neither one reported anything being weird,
nothing was off. They were acting normal, nothing was different.
So then on Sunday, November fiftheenth, like Jen said, at
nine am, two of Nancy's friends came to the house,
found the bodies, and when Felice arrived, they noticed that
the two telephone wires coming into the home had been
(11:11):
cut and removed. So the murders happened sometime between that time,
sometime between ten thirty on Saturday at nine am on Sunday.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So This continues for several weeks the investigation. They comb
through seven hundred tips and leads. They're getting to a stalemate,
so they start to offer one thousand dollar reward for
any and all information that they can get and treated
by the monetary award. Police received a call from a
man named Floyd Wills. Now, Will says I know who
(11:47):
did this because he was in prison with two men
who had planned this. He's saying, these two guys were
blabbing about this in the jail. I'm going to give
you what I know. So what he knows is that
Perry Smith and Dick Hiccock were in prison with him.
He talking about Wells had mentioned that he used to
work for a very rich farmer named Herb Clutter and
(12:09):
that the farm was pretty remote and anybody could just
go in and rob the safe that was in the home.
He said this was basically just really big prison talk
and he didn't think anyone would take him seriously. They
were able to verify that Wells did hold this position
at the farm. He was a farm hand, and he
(12:30):
was also in prison the same time these other two
men were, so his stories kind of connecting up here.
This is what the police needed for a lead. They
went on the hunt for Dick and Perry. They were
on the most wanted list in ten states, so it
was widespread people are looking for them. So if somebody
(12:52):
who is wanted for murder, you would think that you
would lay low, or in this case, they might not.
And in this case, the criminals intended to run to Mexico,
which was actually their plan all along, along with the
money from this safe. But since there's no safe, there's
no money, and they really did need to get away,
(13:14):
so Dick started writing bad checks enough to get them
to where they wanted to be.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
So they do end up in Mexico, but writing bad checks,
the money's not real. It didn't last very long. They
had to go back to the US and ended up
back in Kansas. But they need money again, so they
only had one option again, so Dick Hickock writes more
bad checks, but he's not using a fake name or
anything like that. He is going with his real name.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So when the.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Checks start coming back as bad with his name on
it and he is on the most wanted list, well,
it makes a trail, especially when you go from Kansas
to Florida to Las Vegas, which is what they do,
so they are calling attention to themselves. They are creating
a paper trail. It also makes people suspicious when you're
(14:06):
writing bad checks, you're on a list. The check doesn't
look quite right, and that's exactly what happened when Hickock
used one of these checks to buy a TV and
the store owner just had a weird feeling about him
and the check.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
He was acting weird.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
The check didn't look quite right, so he writes down
the plate number and called police. This was also what
police needed because in Vegas on December thirty first, nineteen
fifty nine, Happy New Year, two officers spotted the car,
ran the Kansas plates, realized, oh my gosh, this is them,
pulled them over, and is going to try to make
(14:42):
an arrest. Well, inside the car they also had a
pair of boots. We'll get back to those boots in
a little bit. Police obviously had a lot of questions
for these men. Surprisingly, they were pretty forthcoming. Both of
them admitted to murdering the Clutter family, but, as we
have so often seen when duos or more are involved,
(15:04):
their stories conflicted. Smith says he killed Herbert and Kenyon,
but there was a dispute over the women. Now Hiccock
is saying it was Smith he did it. Smith says, Nope,
it was Hiccock, but then later he said, no, it
was me. And they're really hung up on who killed
the women because they were seen as the farer sex
couldn't defend themselves and they wanted to pinpoint who was
(15:27):
responsible for what so that they could bring charges.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
And we're going to.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Get more into who these two men are and why
they did this after the break.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I guess welcome back, so let's talk about the killers.
Dick Hitcock was a very smart man. He had above
average IQ, he was athletic, and honestly, he had a
lot going for him. He was offered a baseball and
football scholarship and it didn't cover everything, and he didn't
want to put that burden on his family to pay,
(16:01):
so he began to work as a mechanic after school.
When he was nineteen, he married his sixteen year old,
but he had eyes for others and he soon got
another girl, not his wife pregnant, she divorced him pretty quickly,
or they got divorced and he remarried the new girl.
Well you can guess how this pattern's gonna go. It
(16:24):
didn't go much better and ended he was in a
very bad car wreck, which pretty much left a permanent
scar on his face.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
He was described as very charming. Now remember he is
very smart, above average IQ. But he wrote one too
many bad checks and stole one too many times and
he went to prison. That is where he met Perry Smith,
his cellmate, who much less is known about, but the
two became pretty close. Now Here is what little we
(16:53):
do know or what has been said about Perry Smith.
He was born in Washington State. He was abandoned by
his mother, and he was a circus bareback rider by
age nine, and his father was off prospecting in Alaska.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Now that's one story.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Now, out of all the stories, this is the one
that I was hoping it was true, the bareback rider
in the circus. This is the one I want. Yes,
this is the one I'm reading for.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
But other sources say that he was born in Nevada.
His parents were rodeo performers, big difference between rodeo and circus,
and he took after them. Other sources say his mother
left their father, but took the kids and didn't abandon them.
She allegedly died when he was thirteen, and he and
his siblings ended up in a Catholic orphanage where they
(17:40):
suffered a lot of abuse. He allegedly later joined the army,
where he was injured and became addicted to pain medicine.
So a lot of conflicting stories. They're not really sure why.
It's so hard to pinpoint, but it is so. In
prison they both met Floyd Wells, who told them about
mister Klutter. That's what Jen was talking about. That's mister
(18:00):
Wells is the one who called in the tip. There's
just one problem. Floyd Wells was way wrong about the safe.
In fact, most people who knew herb Clutter knew that
he intentionally did not keep cash on him for the
very reason that he may be robbed, and so he
most often used checks. So was he just trying to
(18:24):
talk big in prison? What was the reason for him
telling people that? So with Hickock's past, with theft and
money and being a smart man, he could not forget
about this. It seemed too easy to him. There's a
farm with no one around, lots of money in a safe.
He could not help himself, and he would later tell
(18:45):
someone very famous and hold that thought because we'll get
to it that it was quote a cinch.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
A perfect score.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
So Dick and Perry promised to get in touch with
each other once they were out of prison, and they're
going to make this happen. Perry Smith was paroled five
weeks before Hickock, and when Hickock was released, it was
noted that he was not dangerous. Meanwhile, he is the
one obsessing over these plans. He's the one like, I
can't resist. We're doing this when we get out.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So they begin to make those plans. And they agreed
early on that if any witnesses were around, they're not
going to leave them. They will take care of them.
And at the time, Hiccock was only twenty eight and
Smith was thirty one. Early on November fifteenth, they drove
to the ranch with tape rope, a shotgun, and a knife.
(19:34):
They weren't sure if they were going to have to
break in or not, but they didn't have to the
doors were open. This is recounted from the Legends of Kansas.
Dick and Perry left the town they were in and
they borrowed a nineteen forty nine Chevy, taking a rout
to Hokum four hundred miles, and several hours later they
(19:57):
entered Garden City, stopping for gas at the Phillip sixty six.
A short ride later, they arrived in view of the
Clutter home near midnight and followed a dirt road to
the house. Dick momentarily reconsidered and turned the car round.
Perry responded, maybe you think I ain't got the guts
to do it alone, but by God, I'll show you
who's got the guts. Continuing, the two criminals parked on
(20:21):
the side entrance and entered through an unlocked door where
the family slept. Now, according to the men, Herb woke
up first when he told them, look, there's no safe
and he didn't keep money in the house. They put
him in the office to keep looking, and that's when
his wife woke up. She also confirmed, hey, look we
don't keep cash in the house. We don't have a safe.
(20:44):
So they went to find what they could from the kids.
So mom and dad are saying no, but the kids
they're going to know, so they're hoping the kids would
reveal it. Smith does say he's the one that stopped
Hitcock from raping men.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
See thank goodness for that at least, So they've now
been caught and now they are going to trial, which
began on March twenty ninth of nineteen sixty and lasted
just a little over a week.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
So remember that bloody footprint that we talked about.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
It was the only piece of evidence that became one
of the biggest pieces of evidence against them, even though
it was barely even visible to the naked eye. Because
remember those boots that they had in the car, that's
what they were using to match it up. And although
it's barely visible, that's all they got, and they are
using those boots to show these are their footprints. Both
(21:37):
men refused to testify, which left things cloudy as far
as who actually killed the women. Again, they're wanting to
know who did what here, but it really didn't look
good for the men. So in the closing argument, the
lawyers were basically pleading for their life, citing the Bible
being against capital punishment. So they're not necessarily saying, hey,
they're innocent, they're just saying, hey, spare them the day
(22:00):
death penalty. They were convicted of the murders by a
jury of all men who deliberated for only forty minutes.
And they were sentenced to death, but their legal battle
is not over yet. They argued to vacate the death
sentence because the judge and several of the jurors knew
the Clutter family, and they're saying it should have been
(22:20):
moved to a different area. Fair because it is a very,
very small town. But by this point it's all over.
You couldn't go anywhere relatively nearby without people who knew
about it.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
It just wasn't going to happen. So that argument was
a no go. Now.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
They did not do themselves any favors, though, because they
talked about the murders to anyone who would listen, and
they never once expressed remorse. So they've got all these
people saying, oh yeah, they've been talking about it.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
They're pretty proud of it.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
They were executed by hanging on the gallows on April fourteenth,
nineteen sixty five, which was about five and a half
years after the murders, but this was actually their fifth
execution date. They received reprieve on the first four They.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Both had a last meal of spiced shrimp fries, garlic bread,
ice cream with strawberries and whipped cream. Their last words
are interesting so Hickock said, You're going to be to
a better place than this. Then he said bye, goodbye.
Smith's a little bit more, let's just say infuriating. He says,
I think it is a hell of a thing that
(23:25):
a life has to be taken in this manner. Pause. Dude,
you yeah, you shotgun entire family to death. Okay, that's bold,
He continues to say. I say this especially because there's
a great deal I could have offered society. I certainly
think capital punishment is legally and morally wrong. Any apology
(23:46):
for what I have done would be meaningless at this time.
I don't have any animosities towards anyone involved in this matter.
I think that is all.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
So, dude, don't kill me. This is wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Oh, but I'm also not gonna apologize for what I've done.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Like that's a bold that was a bold statement.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
He kills a little girl, a boy, a mom, and
a dad who are well known in the community, nice
as they can be with a shotgun, and then you're like,
I think capital punishment's wrong.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, so interesting fact. Hiccock was an organ owner and
his eyes were taken shortly after he was executed for
corneal transplants. One went to a man and one went
to a woman. So interesting to admit, there another interesting fact.
In twenty twelve, both of their bodies were exhumed, So
not that terribly long ago. Considering how long ago this happened,
(24:36):
there had been a fifty three year old cold case
from December nineteenth of nineteen fifty nine, just before they
ended up being caught in Florida. Cliff and Christine Walker
and their two young children were shot to death. Smith
and Hiccock were questioned at the time and cleared by polygraph,
which we all know doesn't mean jack squat, But knowing
(24:57):
now what we know about it, they w back and
they're like, wait a minute, this would be considered invalid today,
so we need to look at it again. And there
was semen that had been kept from Christine and they
exhumed them to get their DNA to see if it matched,
and it did not. It was not a match. So
(25:17):
that is the story. But where does true crime theater
come in, because it's taking us into the next series. Well,
let's go to nineteen sixty six. There was an author
who you may have heard of, named Truman Capoti who
writes a book that you may have heard of, called
In Cold Blood. Truman Capoti is best remembered for Breakfast
at Tiffany's. Both Breakfast at Tiffany's and In Cold Blood
(25:41):
were made into movies, which brings us to true crime
theater too now.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Capoti wanted to write from the time he was only
eight years old and started with short stories. He was
recognized in early nineteen thirty six by the Scholastic Art
in Writing Awards. In Cold Blood the film came out
in nineteen teen seventy six, and in this film, Smith
was played by Robert Blake, who later ended up charged
and on trial for a murder of his wife. He
(26:08):
was acquitted, but a civil jury found him responsible. He
couldn't be linked to the murder weapon, but two former
stumpmen said Blake had tried to hire him or hire
them to murder his wife. Blake died in twenty twenty three.
The movie was shot on site, so in the actual
family home, and the only site they were not granted
(26:32):
access to was the prison, so really authentic movie set.
It was nominated for four Academy Awards and was considered culturally, historically,
or esthetically significant and has been preserved by the US
National Film Registry by the Library of Congress. There is
a tv N series by the same name in nineteen
(26:56):
ninety six. Now Capoti came out in two thousand and five,
Infamous came out in two thousand and six, so those.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Take on different versions of it. Capoti obviously more so
looks at Truman, Capoti himself and obviously the role that
in Cold Blood played in his life, and Infamous is
not only about the crime as well, it more so
looks at the criminals. So Capodi had a fascination with
the case.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
He traveled to Kansas to investigate the killings and to
interview the killers for his book, which became an instant bestseller.
It was the greatest crime seller at the time, but
it's considered to kind of be the og true crime book,
and he spent years working on it. Today it's actually
the second best selling true crime book and publishing history,
(27:43):
behind nineteen seventy four's Helter Skelter, which of course is
about the Charles Manson murders. Capodi was assisted by his
friend Harper Lee, another famous author who wrote To Kill
a Mockingbird Again. Capodi did talk to Hickock and Smith
extent for the book, and Smith told Capoti at one point,
(28:04):
talking about herb Clutter, he said, I didn't want to
harm the man. I thought he was a very nice gentleman,
seft spoken. I thought so right up into the moment I.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Cut his throat.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
So the there's a lot of speculation that Capoti and
Smith grew quite close.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Capoti says they did.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
They talked all the time, and a lot of people
thought that it was more They thought that it was
a more invested relationship. Now is that because it was
the sixties and Capoti was an openly gay man at
that time and people are, you know, looking and seeing
things that they want to see maybe don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Capoti died in August twenty fifth and nineteen eighty four.
It was because of liver disease from multiple drug intoxications.
There is a four part documentary on the murders called
cold Blooded The Clutter Family Murders that takes a more
family focused few on the crimes, whereas Capodi, he really
focuses on the killer's aspect. Now the family. He wasn't
(29:00):
very happy with some of how the family members portrayed
and said he didn't reach out to them to address
their concerns a little bit more drama. Seems like it
followed him throughout his whole movie making process.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, so he didn't really get their take on anything,
didn't ask their opinion when they addressed concerns, He did
not reach out about it. So they did not love that.
So that's where the Cold Blooded documentary comes in. I
have read and seen In cold Blood. We had to
do it in English class in high school, and it
is very interesting because it is filmed on the actual premises,
(29:38):
which is kind of unheard of. You know, I'm not
sure how I feel about that.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Well, a lot of the beant John Benet once were
filmed on site.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I mean, a documentary is one thing, but In Cold
Blood is not a documentary. The movie is not a
documentary like I can see if it was that, but
this was is you know, dramatized, hollywoodized all that. So hey,
you know what, obviously it's a very you know, famous
(30:10):
film and a very famous case, and honestly it was
made so because of Truman Capodia.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
I mean, it did go nationwide.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
People were, you know, surprised that it happened in such
a small town. It would not have been as well
known though, if it wasn't for him writing and having
the movie of In Cold Blood, because I mean it's
pretty much a classic, gets a standard.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Well, that ends the entire series and we are super
excited to enter into a new one. I guess we
have some major big developments coming soon in the Rocky case.
So stay tuned. You're gonna know what we know when
we know it. But just know that things are happening
behind the scenes, and just keep him and his family
(30:54):
in thoughts and prayers.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, Alabama has now done the third nitrogen hypoxia execution,
which I think we talked about. It might have been
on Patreon, I don't know, but they have now done three.
They are rolling full steam ahead. It is not stopping them.
They are going in order, and we're very nervous. It
(31:16):
is coming quick and we need all hands on deck.
If you have not sent a letter yet.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Email it to us.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Don't even put it in the mail at this point.
Just email it to us Corpus Delicti at yahoo dot com.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Send it to us.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
We will print it and get it where it needs
to go. If you if you want to send him
a card, say you're thinking of him whatever. We actually
have his address in a penned post on our Facebook page,
but if you need it, let us know. We'll get
that to you.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
You know, we don't know.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
We have a general idea of what his lawyer has
been saying all along, Well will happen when she presents
the case and all that, But depending on the reception
of that could dictate if it goes well, great, if
it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Is there going to be media involvement? Are there going
to be protests? All that?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
So all hands on deck, be ready. We're ready, just
because Alabama seems to be moving at a horrifically fast
paced with this, despite there's still being concerns, despite the
United Nations saying Alabama is doing something wrong here.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
We don't like this. It needs to stop.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
From the first three it's it is. It has not
stopped anything. So let's just put it that way for now.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
So in twenty twenty four, Alabama has executed six total,
three with lethal injection, three with hypoxia. Yeah, so ivy steamrolling.
So just be prepared for action, but we will let
you know when that time comes. Other than that, join
us on our Facebook group. Please answer the questions. If
(32:58):
you don't, we don't let you in. So sorry, not sorry,
we don't like thoughts. But other than that, Patreon Patreon
is going so strong. We had such an amazing fun
past two months with them. Yeah, I our last Patreon
it did kind of go over a little bit, but
I think the discussion was so everyone was involved and
(33:22):
you might get to hear a little bit of it.
Yeah that was a little too much. Maybe, Yeah, it
was good.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
That's really perfect because I was I was actually gonna
say that. So the plan for the rest of the month,
because normally we take December off, but we just we didn't.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
I don't know why we didn't. We didn't because we
just had time off. But so you'll have this episode.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
There's another one that we are going to record, probably
in like a week or so, and then we also
have a little holiday bonus for you guys. What we
did is for our Patreon live that we did right
at the very very beginning of December. It fits into
True Crime theater, right, was it?
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
It was True Crime Theater, And so we're going to
take the episode part of that and release it to
you guys. It is not gonna have the part that
we do after because we do half of it as
a story, half of it as hanging out with Patreon.
Part of that is gonna stay sacred to Patreon, but
we are going to share this story with you guys.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
It is a true crime theater story.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I will say it was recorded on zoom because it
is Patreon, so it may not sound quite as crisp
as it normally does. And you are gonna hear some
voices that you don't recognize because it is discussion, but
it was.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Unless you're like a true hardcore Corpus delictifent, you may
recognize them.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Well that's true, Yeah, that's true. If you're in Patreon,
you'll recognize them. But you know, our Patreon is awesome.
We have a lot of people who are Patreon members,
but only a handful or active in discord, which is fine.
The benefits are there for whoever wants it. No one
has to feel pressured to. But you know, it's a small,
tight knit group that we've all kind of gotten to
(34:59):
be family.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
So if you want to join us, come on. If
you don't, that's okay too.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, we got a channel for everything, yes.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
We do.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
So three episodes this month is the long and short
of it, unless you are one of the people who
was on Patreon, in which case you've already heard it.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, lets listen anyways, all right, but you know what
they said to Felicia.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Bye,
Hey everyone, it's Jen, and this is Lindsay and this
is Corpustilicti the podcast, the final episode in our High
Profile series.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yes, which actually this is taking us right into our
brand new series. This one fits into both. So we
were like, you know what, this will close out one
and kick off the other. So here we are end
of High Profile taking us into True Crime Theater two.
We did True Crime Theater long long, long, long time ago,
(00:55):
and we are bringing it back. But this time it
is going to be movies, TV documentary, anything you can
see on a screen. So last time, I believe it
was just strictly movies. So movies, TV documentaries. So let's
go ahead and jump right in and close out High
(01:16):
Profile and start True Crime Theater two. So we are
going to start off in Holcombe, Kansas on November fifteenth
of nineteen fifty nine, where the entire Clutter family was
found murdered in their home.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Herbert aka Herb he was forty eight and his wife,
Bonnie's forty five. They were at home with her two teenagers,
Nancy and Kenyon. They had two daughters that were adults,
but those two didn't live at home now. Nancy sixteen
and Kenyon's fifteen.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Nancy.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
She's a straight A student at our high school, where
she was also in the band. She played clarinet. By
all accounts, she's a really great kid, and she's active
in four h She goes to church. She was actually
a really good cook. She loved music. She helped younger
kids with their music, and she also was in the
school play. Very very busy girl. A friend said, Nancy
(02:13):
was a freckled faced girl you would immediately like pretty
in a way, but not striking. She was wholesome and
in fact, at the time of the murder, Nancy had
just been voted by the faculty as the winner of
the school's citizenship award. Kenyon was the youngest of the
four kids and the only boy who was quiet. But
(02:33):
he was outdoorsy and hands on. He liked to hunt,
he did woodworking and worked on trucks. This kid's also athletic.
He played basketball and run track for school. He was
also on the honor roll.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So Herbert was a farmer, and a well known and
successful one at that. He graduated from Kansas State University
with a major in agriculture, and after school he bought
a bunch of land, married Bonnie built their ranch style
home and the farm was called River Valley Farm. He
specialized in growing wheat, but he did also have this
(03:08):
huge orchard full of fruit trees, and it was pretty successful.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
He had up to.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Eighteen farm hands at any given time. He was known
to have paid them well and he treated them very well. Also,
he was a very good employer. He was the first
president of the Kansas Association of Wheat Growers, a former
president of the National Association of Wheat Growers, president of
the board of directors of the Garden City Cooperative Equity Exchange,
(03:36):
and he was actually appointed by President Eisenhower in nineteen
fifty three to serve on the Federal Farm Credit Board.
So Aside from his job, he also was very active
at church. He was on the church's official board, the
Pastoral Relations Committee. He was a Sunday school teacher and
a chairman of the building Committee. Now Bonnie, she stayed
(03:58):
at home with the children, helped raise them from the home,
and she allegedly struggled deeply with depression after her children
were born. We say emphasis on allegedly because multiple sources
do say this, although the surviving family members dispute it.
She was active in the children's department at church.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
She taught the kids.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
She was a member of the Women's Society of Christian Service,
also a member of the garden clubs. So really you
can see this family is very active, they're very well known,
they're very respected.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
People know who they.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Are, and one family friend recalled they were the nicest
people you would ever meet.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
So on November fourteenth or fifteenth, which was the Saturday
night Sunday morning, in the middle of the night, the
family was fast asleep and two men snuck into the
home through an unlocked door. In being in the dark,
the intruders caused a bit of a stir and woke
up the family, not all at once, but one one.
(05:00):
This is not part of their plan. The plan was
actually to steal a safe, so the two men had
to act quickly. The intruders forced Bonnie and the kids
into the upstairs bathroom where they locked them in, and
they forced her into his office which was downstairs. But
there's yet another problem here. The intruders can't find the safe.
(05:25):
Surely it's in the office. Well, they look around and nope,
it wasn't. So they go around the house. They still
can't find the safe. They need more time, but now
they have three people locked in the bathroom and they're
gonna find a way out. So they go into the
bathroom and take Bonnie. They gag her, They tie her
(05:47):
hands in front of her and put her back into
the bed so she couldn't fight her scream. Then they
got Nancy. They didn't gag her, but they did put
her back on the bed with her arms tied behind
her back.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Then they got Herb and Kenyon and led them to
the basement, but not before gagging Kenyon as well, tying
his hands behind his back as well, And then they
used the extra rope to tie him to a pipe
on the ceiling in the furnace room. Then they changed
their mind. They cut him down, moved him to an
adjoining room where they placed him diagonally on the couch,
(06:23):
laying down on the couch, but nicely enough, they actually
put a pillow behind his head. And with herb they
bound and gagged him like the rest of the family,
and they forced him onto a mattress down in the basement.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
In the furnace room.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
One of the men the intruders stayed in the basement
to keep watch while the other went back to look
some more for the safe, but again there is no safe.
It just was not there. The pair agreed no witnesses,
they've seen too much, and one man went over to
herb cut his throat and also shot him in the
(07:00):
The remaining three family members were all shot to death
with a single shotgun blast to the head.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
The lead detective.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Recalled about Bonnie, specifically saying she'd been tied too, but differently,
with her hands in front of her so that she
looked as if she was praying. The cord around her wrists,
ran down to her ankles, which were bound together, then
ran on down to the bottom of the bed where
it was tied to the footboard. A very complicated, artful
(07:28):
piece of work. She'd been shot point blank in the
side of the hat. Her eyes were open, wide open,
as if she was still looking at the killer, because
she must have had to watch him do it aim
the gun. Now, that cord that they're referencing there was
actually from their curtains, so they took the.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Rope, the cord of rope that.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
You used to tie the curtains back, and that's what
they used to tie her.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
But they can't leave empty handed, so they took a
portable radio, binoculars, and some cash. Now the cash total
to just under fifty dollars, so this isn't the big
payday that they're looking for. They were careful as they
could be and took the shotgun shells with them and
fled again as the nineteen fifty So they're trying to
leave as little trace evidence as possible. So let's get
(08:14):
to the actual investigation. The family was discovered at nine
am on Sunday by two of Nancy's friends who came
by the house. Now, of course immediately they called the police.
The friends were going to go to church with Nancy,
so that's why they were over there. They went into
the unlocked house, didn't hear anything when they should have,
(08:35):
and got suspicious and went to Nancy's room and there
they found her. The evidence found was only one bloody
boot print and that was it. The house wasn't ransacked
or anything like that, and they came in through an
unlocked door, so there's not going to be any forced entry.
No one, thank goodness, was sexually assaulted. The funerals themselves
(08:58):
were packed. Parents they were buried in the middle of
the plot with their two children on either side.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
So of course this upset the town because keep in mind,
this is a well known, well established family, and according
to a neighbor quote, no one seems to understand why
this happened. The Clutters were real boosters here, so they're
just really having a hard time trying to understand what
the motive would be. But of course it scares everyone.
It's a very small town. They're locking their doors, they're
(09:29):
staying inside, and it didn't take long for the news
to take over nationally because again, people are really surprised
how this could happen in this rural area in Kansas.
So let's put it in perspective. Nancy and Kenyon's high school.
There's only eighty seven students in the entire high school.
That's not just the graduating class, that's all of it.
(09:51):
That's very very small. So it's this town where everyone
knows everyone who would do such a thing. Meanwhile, investigators
are questioning any and everyone who knew the family, and
they were able to put together the following timeline. So
at nine pm on Saturday the fourteenth, Herb Clutter had
a phone call with his business partner. At ten thirty,
(10:14):
a boyfriend of Nancy's who was named Bobby Rupp, left
the home. He was briefly considered a suspect because he
was the last one at the home, but he was
quickly ruled out. In fact, they were supposed to be
Bobby and Nancy were supposed to be out on a
date that night, and he felt guilty that if they
would have kept that date, she would not have been
(10:34):
home when this happened. And he says, quote, we were
planning on going to a midnight movie on Saturday night,
and Herbs suggested that we go on Friday night. Had
we not gone on Friday night and gone on Saturday night,
how much different things might have been.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Now the business.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Partner and the boyfriend neither one reported anything being weird,
nothing was off. They were acting normal, nothing was different.
So then on Sunday, November fiftheenth, like Jen said, at
nine am, two of Nancy's friends came to the house,
found the bodies, and when Felice arrived, they noticed that
the two telephone wires coming into the home had been
(11:11):
cut and removed. So the murders happened sometime between that time,
sometime between ten thirty on Saturday at nine am on Sunday.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So This continues for several weeks the investigation. They comb
through seven hundred tips and leads. They're getting to a stalemate,
so they start to offer one thousand dollar reward for
any and all information that they can get and treated
by the monetary award. Police received a call from a
man named Floyd Wills. Now, Will says I know who
(11:47):
did this because he was in prison with two men
who had planned this. He's saying, these two guys were
blabbing about this in the jail. I'm going to give
you what I know. So what he knows is that
Perry Smith and Dick Hiccock were in prison with him.
He talking about Wells had mentioned that he used to
work for a very rich farmer named Herb Clutter and
(12:09):
that the farm was pretty remote and anybody could just
go in and rob the safe that was in the home.
He said this was basically just really big prison talk
and he didn't think anyone would take him seriously. They
were able to verify that Wells did hold this position
at the farm. He was a farm hand, and he
(12:30):
was also in prison the same time these other two
men were, so his stories kind of connecting up here.
This is what the police needed for a lead. They
went on the hunt for Dick and Perry. They were
on the most wanted list in ten states, so it
was widespread people are looking for them. So if somebody
(12:52):
who is wanted for murder, you would think that you
would lay low, or in this case, they might not.
And in this case, the criminals intended to run to Mexico,
which was actually their plan all along, along with the
money from this safe. But since there's no safe, there's
no money, and they really did need to get away,
(13:14):
so Dick started writing bad checks enough to get them
to where they wanted to be.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
So they do end up in Mexico, but writing bad checks,
the money's not real. It didn't last very long. They
had to go back to the US and ended up
back in Kansas. But they need money again, so they
only had one option again, so Dick Hickock writes more
bad checks, but he's not using a fake name or
anything like that. He is going with his real name.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So when the.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Checks start coming back as bad with his name on
it and he is on the most wanted list, well,
it makes a trail, especially when you go from Kansas
to Florida to Las Vegas, which is what they do,
so they are calling attention to themselves. They are creating
a paper trail. It also makes people suspicious when you're
(14:06):
writing bad checks, you're on a list. The check doesn't
look quite right, and that's exactly what happened when Hickock
used one of these checks to buy a TV and
the store owner just had a weird feeling about him
and the check.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
He was acting weird.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
The check didn't look quite right, so he writes down
the plate number and called police. This was also what
police needed because in Vegas on December thirty first, nineteen
fifty nine, Happy New Year, two officers spotted the car,
ran the Kansas plates, realized, oh my gosh, this is them,
pulled them over, and is going to try to make
(14:42):
an arrest. Well, inside the car they also had a
pair of boots. We'll get back to those boots in
a little bit. Police obviously had a lot of questions
for these men. Surprisingly, they were pretty forthcoming. Both of
them admitted to murdering the Clutter family, but, as we
have so often seen when duos or more are involved,
(15:04):
their stories conflicted. Smith says he killed Herbert and Kenyon,
but there was a dispute over the women. Now Hiccock
is saying it was Smith he did it. Smith says, Nope,
it was Hiccock, but then later he said, no, it
was me. And they're really hung up on who killed
the women because they were seen as the farer sex
couldn't defend themselves and they wanted to pinpoint who was
(15:27):
responsible for what so that they could bring charges.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
And we're going to.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Get more into who these two men are and why
they did this after the break.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I guess welcome back, so let's talk about the killers.
Dick Hitcock was a very smart man. He had above
average IQ, he was athletic, and honestly, he had a
lot going for him. He was offered a baseball and
football scholarship and it didn't cover everything, and he didn't
want to put that burden on his family to pay,
(16:01):
so he began to work as a mechanic after school.
When he was nineteen, he married his sixteen year old,
but he had eyes for others and he soon got
another girl, not his wife pregnant, she divorced him pretty quickly,
or they got divorced and he remarried the new girl.
Well you can guess how this pattern's gonna go. It
(16:24):
didn't go much better and ended he was in a
very bad car wreck, which pretty much left a permanent
scar on his face.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
He was described as very charming. Now remember he is
very smart, above average IQ. But he wrote one too
many bad checks and stole one too many times and
he went to prison. That is where he met Perry Smith,
his cellmate, who much less is known about, but the
two became pretty close. Now Here is what little we
(16:53):
do know or what has been said about Perry Smith.
He was born in Washington State. He was abandoned by
his mother, and he was a circus bareback rider by
age nine, and his father was off prospecting in Alaska.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Now that's one story.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Now, out of all the stories, this is the one
that I was hoping it was true, the bareback rider
in the circus. This is the one I want. Yes,
this is the one I'm reading for.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
But other sources say that he was born in Nevada.
His parents were rodeo performers, big difference between rodeo and circus,
and he took after them. Other sources say his mother
left their father, but took the kids and didn't abandon them.
She allegedly died when he was thirteen, and he and
his siblings ended up in a Catholic orphanage where they
(17:40):
suffered a lot of abuse. He allegedly later joined the army,
where he was injured and became addicted to pain medicine.
So a lot of conflicting stories. They're not really sure why.
It's so hard to pinpoint, but it is so. In
prison they both met Floyd Wells, who told them about
mister Klutter. That's what Jen was talking about. That's mister
(18:00):
Wells is the one who called in the tip. There's
just one problem. Floyd Wells was way wrong about the safe.
In fact, most people who knew herb Clutter knew that
he intentionally did not keep cash on him for the
very reason that he may be robbed, and so he
most often used checks. So was he just trying to
(18:24):
talk big in prison? What was the reason for him
telling people that? So with Hickock's past, with theft and
money and being a smart man, he could not forget
about this. It seemed too easy to him. There's a
farm with no one around, lots of money in a safe.
He could not help himself, and he would later tell
(18:45):
someone very famous and hold that thought because we'll get
to it that it was quote a cinch.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
A perfect score.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
So Dick and Perry promised to get in touch with
each other once they were out of prison, and they're
going to make this happen. Perry Smith was paroled five
weeks before Hickock, and when Hickock was released, it was
noted that he was not dangerous. Meanwhile, he is the
one obsessing over these plans. He's the one like, I
can't resist. We're doing this when we get out.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So they begin to make those plans. And they agreed
early on that if any witnesses were around, they're not
going to leave them. They will take care of them.
And at the time, Hiccock was only twenty eight and
Smith was thirty one. Early on November fifteenth, they drove
to the ranch with tape rope, a shotgun, and a knife.
(19:34):
They weren't sure if they were going to have to
break in or not, but they didn't have to the
doors were open. This is recounted from the Legends of Kansas.
Dick and Perry left the town they were in and
they borrowed a nineteen forty nine Chevy, taking a rout
to Hokum four hundred miles, and several hours later they
(19:57):
entered Garden City, stopping for gas at the Phillip sixty six.
A short ride later, they arrived in view of the
Clutter home near midnight and followed a dirt road to
the house. Dick momentarily reconsidered and turned the car round.
Perry responded, maybe you think I ain't got the guts
to do it alone, but by God, I'll show you
who's got the guts. Continuing, the two criminals parked on
(20:21):
the side entrance and entered through an unlocked door where
the family slept. Now, according to the men, Herb woke
up first when he told them, look, there's no safe
and he didn't keep money in the house. They put
him in the office to keep looking, and that's when
his wife woke up. She also confirmed, hey, look we
don't keep cash in the house. We don't have a safe.
(20:44):
So they went to find what they could from the kids.
So mom and dad are saying no, but the kids
they're going to know, so they're hoping the kids would
reveal it. Smith does say he's the one that stopped
Hitcock from raping men.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
See thank goodness for that at least, So they've now
been caught and now they are going to trial, which
began on March twenty ninth of nineteen sixty and lasted
just a little over a week.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
So remember that bloody footprint that we talked about.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
It was the only piece of evidence that became one
of the biggest pieces of evidence against them, even though
it was barely even visible to the naked eye. Because
remember those boots that they had in the car, that's
what they were using to match it up. And although
it's barely visible, that's all they got, and they are
using those boots to show these are their footprints. Both
(21:37):
men refused to testify, which left things cloudy as far
as who actually killed the women. Again, they're wanting to
know who did what here, but it really didn't look
good for the men. So in the closing argument, the
lawyers were basically pleading for their life, citing the Bible
being against capital punishment. So they're not necessarily saying, hey,
they're innocent, they're just saying, hey, spare them the day
(22:00):
death penalty. They were convicted of the murders by a
jury of all men who deliberated for only forty minutes.
And they were sentenced to death, but their legal battle
is not over yet. They argued to vacate the death
sentence because the judge and several of the jurors knew
the Clutter family, and they're saying it should have been
(22:20):
moved to a different area. Fair because it is a very,
very small town. But by this point it's all over.
You couldn't go anywhere relatively nearby without people who knew
about it.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
It just wasn't going to happen. So that argument was
a no go. Now.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
They did not do themselves any favors, though, because they
talked about the murders to anyone who would listen, and
they never once expressed remorse. So they've got all these
people saying, oh yeah, they've been talking about it.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
They're pretty proud of it.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
They were executed by hanging on the gallows on April fourteenth,
nineteen sixty five, which was about five and a half
years after the murders, but this was actually their fifth
execution date. They received reprieve on the first four They.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Both had a last meal of spiced shrimp fries, garlic bread,
ice cream with strawberries and whipped cream. Their last words
are interesting so Hickock said, You're going to be to
a better place than this. Then he said bye, goodbye.
Smith's a little bit more, let's just say infuriating. He says,
I think it is a hell of a thing that
(23:25):
a life has to be taken in this manner. Pause. Dude,
you yeah, you shotgun entire family to death. Okay, that's bold,
He continues to say. I say this especially because there's
a great deal I could have offered society. I certainly
think capital punishment is legally and morally wrong. Any apology
(23:46):
for what I have done would be meaningless at this time.
I don't have any animosities towards anyone involved in this matter.
I think that is all.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
So, dude, don't kill me. This is wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Oh, but I'm also not gonna apologize for what I've done.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Like that's a bold that was a bold statement.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
He kills a little girl, a boy, a mom, and
a dad who are well known in the community, nice
as they can be with a shotgun, and then you're like,
I think capital punishment's wrong.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, so interesting fact. Hiccock was an organ owner and
his eyes were taken shortly after he was executed for
corneal transplants. One went to a man and one went
to a woman. So interesting to admit, there another interesting fact.
In twenty twelve, both of their bodies were exhumed, So
not that terribly long ago. Considering how long ago this happened,
(24:36):
there had been a fifty three year old cold case
from December nineteenth of nineteen fifty nine, just before they
ended up being caught in Florida. Cliff and Christine Walker
and their two young children were shot to death. Smith
and Hiccock were questioned at the time and cleared by polygraph,
which we all know doesn't mean jack squat, But knowing
(24:57):
now what we know about it, they w back and
they're like, wait a minute, this would be considered invalid today,
so we need to look at it again. And there
was semen that had been kept from Christine and they
exhumed them to get their DNA to see if it matched,
and it did not. It was not a match. So
(25:17):
that is the story. But where does true crime theater
come in, because it's taking us into the next series. Well,
let's go to nineteen sixty six. There was an author
who you may have heard of, named Truman Capoti who
writes a book that you may have heard of, called
In Cold Blood. Truman Capoti is best remembered for Breakfast
at Tiffany's. Both Breakfast at Tiffany's and In Cold Blood
(25:41):
were made into movies, which brings us to true crime
theater too now.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Capoti wanted to write from the time he was only
eight years old and started with short stories. He was
recognized in early nineteen thirty six by the Scholastic Art
in Writing Awards. In Cold Blood the film came out
in nineteen teen seventy six, and in this film, Smith
was played by Robert Blake, who later ended up charged
and on trial for a murder of his wife. He
(26:08):
was acquitted, but a civil jury found him responsible. He
couldn't be linked to the murder weapon, but two former
stumpmen said Blake had tried to hire him or hire
them to murder his wife. Blake died in twenty twenty three.
The movie was shot on site, so in the actual
family home, and the only site they were not granted
(26:32):
access to was the prison, so really authentic movie set.
It was nominated for four Academy Awards and was considered culturally, historically,
or esthetically significant and has been preserved by the US
National Film Registry by the Library of Congress. There is
a tv N series by the same name in nineteen
(26:56):
ninety six. Now Capoti came out in two thousand and five,
Infamous came out in two thousand and six, so those.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Take on different versions of it. Capoti obviously more so
looks at Truman, Capoti himself and obviously the role that
in Cold Blood played in his life, and Infamous is
not only about the crime as well, it more so
looks at the criminals. So Capodi had a fascination with
the case.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
He traveled to Kansas to investigate the killings and to
interview the killers for his book, which became an instant bestseller.
It was the greatest crime seller at the time, but
it's considered to kind of be the og true crime book,
and he spent years working on it. Today it's actually
the second best selling true crime book and publishing history,
(27:43):
behind nineteen seventy four's Helter Skelter, which of course is
about the Charles Manson murders. Capodi was assisted by his
friend Harper Lee, another famous author who wrote To Kill
a Mockingbird Again. Capodi did talk to Hickock and Smith
extent for the book, and Smith told Capoti at one point,
(28:04):
talking about herb Clutter, he said, I didn't want to
harm the man. I thought he was a very nice gentleman,
seft spoken. I thought so right up into the moment I.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Cut his throat.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
So the there's a lot of speculation that Capoti and
Smith grew quite close.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Capoti says they did.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
They talked all the time, and a lot of people
thought that it was more They thought that it was
a more invested relationship. Now is that because it was
the sixties and Capoti was an openly gay man at
that time and people are, you know, looking and seeing
things that they want to see maybe don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Capoti died in August twenty fifth and nineteen eighty four.
It was because of liver disease from multiple drug intoxications.
There is a four part documentary on the murders called
cold Blooded The Clutter Family Murders that takes a more
family focused few on the crimes, whereas Capodi, he really
focuses on the killer's aspect. Now the family. He wasn't
(29:00):
very happy with some of how the family members portrayed
and said he didn't reach out to them to address
their concerns a little bit more drama. Seems like it
followed him throughout his whole movie making process.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, so he didn't really get their take on anything,
didn't ask their opinion when they addressed concerns, He did
not reach out about it. So they did not love that.
So that's where the Cold Blooded documentary comes in. I
have read and seen In cold Blood. We had to
do it in English class in high school, and it
is very interesting because it is filmed on the actual premises,
(29:38):
which is kind of unheard of. You know, I'm not
sure how I feel about that.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Well, a lot of the beant John Benet once were
filmed on site.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I mean, a documentary is one thing, but In Cold
Blood is not a documentary. The movie is not a
documentary like I can see if it was that, but
this was is you know, dramatized, hollywoodized all that. So hey,
you know what, obviously it's a very you know, famous
(30:10):
film and a very famous case, and honestly it was
made so because of Truman Capodia.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
I mean, it did go nationwide.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
People were, you know, surprised that it happened in such
a small town. It would not have been as well
known though, if it wasn't for him writing and having
the movie of In Cold Blood, because I mean it's
pretty much a classic, gets a standard.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Well, that ends the entire series and we are super
excited to enter into a new one. I guess we
have some major big developments coming soon in the Rocky case.
So stay tuned. You're gonna know what we know when
we know it. But just know that things are happening
behind the scenes, and just keep him and his family
(30:54):
in thoughts and prayers.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, Alabama has now done the third nitrogen hypoxia execution,
which I think we talked about. It might have been
on Patreon, I don't know, but they have now done three.
They are rolling full steam ahead. It is not stopping them.
They are going in order, and we're very nervous. It
(31:16):
is coming quick and we need all hands on deck.
If you have not sent a letter yet.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Email it to us.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Don't even put it in the mail at this point.
Just email it to us Corpus Delicti at yahoo dot com.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Send it to us.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
We will print it and get it where it needs
to go. If you if you want to send him
a card, say you're thinking of him whatever. We actually
have his address in a penned post on our Facebook page,
but if you need it, let us know. We'll get
that to you.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
You know, we don't know.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
We have a general idea of what his lawyer has
been saying all along, Well will happen when she presents
the case and all that, But depending on the reception
of that could dictate if it goes well, great, if
it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Is there going to be media involvement? Are there going
to be protests? All that?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
So all hands on deck, be ready. We're ready, just
because Alabama seems to be moving at a horrifically fast
paced with this, despite there's still being concerns, despite the
United Nations saying Alabama is doing something wrong here.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
We don't like this. It needs to stop.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
From the first three it's it is. It has not
stopped anything. So let's just put it that way for now.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
So in twenty twenty four, Alabama has executed six total,
three with lethal injection, three with hypoxia. Yeah, so ivy steamrolling.
So just be prepared for action, but we will let
you know when that time comes. Other than that, join
us on our Facebook group. Please answer the questions. If
(32:58):
you don't, we don't let you in. So sorry, not sorry,
we don't like thoughts. But other than that, Patreon Patreon
is going so strong. We had such an amazing fun
past two months with them. Yeah, I our last Patreon
it did kind of go over a little bit, but
I think the discussion was so everyone was involved and
(33:22):
you might get to hear a little bit of it.
Yeah that was a little too much. Maybe, Yeah, it
was good.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
That's really perfect because I was I was actually gonna
say that. So the plan for the rest of the month,
because normally we take December off, but we just we didn't.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
I don't know why we didn't. We didn't because we
just had time off. But so you'll have this episode.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
There's another one that we are going to record, probably
in like a week or so, and then we also
have a little holiday bonus for you guys. What we
did is for our Patreon live that we did right
at the very very beginning of December. It fits into
True Crime theater, right, was it?
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
It was True Crime Theater, And so we're going to
take the episode part of that and release it to
you guys. It is not gonna have the part that
we do after because we do half of it as
a story, half of it as hanging out with Patreon.
Part of that is gonna stay sacred to Patreon, but
we are going to share this story with you guys.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
It is a true crime theater story.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I will say it was recorded on zoom because it
is Patreon, so it may not sound quite as crisp
as it normally does. And you are gonna hear some
voices that you don't recognize because it is discussion, but
it was.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Unless you're like a true hardcore Corpus delictifent, you may
recognize them.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Well that's true, Yeah, that's true. If you're in Patreon,
you'll recognize them. But you know, our Patreon is awesome.
We have a lot of people who are Patreon members,
but only a handful or active in discord, which is fine.
The benefits are there for whoever wants it. No one
has to feel pressured to. But you know, it's a small,
tight knit group that we've all kind of gotten to
(34:59):
be family.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
So if you want to join us, come on. If
you don't, that's okay too.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, we got a channel for everything, yes.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
We do.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
So three episodes this month is the long and short
of it, unless you are one of the people who
was on Patreon, in which case you've already heard it.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, lets listen anyways, all right, but you know what
they said to Felicia.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Bye,
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