April 1, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode we continue talking about Ivan Milat. We go through his arrest, trial, and his actions while in prison.
To access earlier episodes of Corpus Delicti and to help support the show, please visit patreon.com/corpusdelicti
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Music by:Kai Engel"Daemones"Blooper music by:Art of Escapism"Coal Miners"This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ or send a letter to Creative Commons, PO Box 1866, Mountain View, CA 94042, USA.
Sources:
Timeline of Ivan Milat's crimes and trialLife never a picnic for the dirt-poor, troubled Milat clanGrowing up with Ivan Milat: An insight into the backpacker killer | Australian Story (2004) - YouTubeOn the trail of a ... serial killerDoes crime run in the Milat family tree?Ivan Milat: How brother Alex led to serial killer’s arrest and conviction | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news siteIvan Milat - Paul Onions, Family & MurdersDid Australia's backpacker killer have an accomplice? | The Independent | The IndependentIvan Milat: Australia's 'backpacker killer' and unanswered questionsBorn to Kill - Ivan MilatBackpacker murders - WikipediaIvan Milat, the notorious Australian Backpacker serial killer -- — Profile of a Killer — Crime Library on truTV.comMaitland Correctional Centre Escape Attempt - 20/05/1997 - QWN - NSW ParliamentSkeleton key to unlock Milat mystery? | Herald SunRegina v Milat Matter No Cca 60438/96 [1998] NSWSC 795 (26 February 1998)Milat says brothers innocent - ABC NewsMatthew Milat, nephew
To access earlier episodes of Corpus Delicti and to help support the show, please visit patreon.com/corpusdelicti
Our merch store can be found at teepublic.com/stores/corpus-delicti-podcast
Music by:Kai Engel"Daemones"Blooper music by:Art of Escapism"Coal Miners"This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ or send a letter to Creative Commons, PO Box 1866, Mountain View, CA 94042, USA.
Sources:
Timeline of Ivan Milat's crimes and trialLife never a picnic for the dirt-poor, troubled Milat clanGrowing up with Ivan Milat: An insight into the backpacker killer | Australian Story (2004) - YouTubeOn the trail of a ... serial killerDoes crime run in the Milat family tree?Ivan Milat: How brother Alex led to serial killer’s arrest and conviction | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news siteIvan Milat - Paul Onions, Family & MurdersDid Australia's backpacker killer have an accomplice? | The Independent | The IndependentIvan Milat: Australia's 'backpacker killer' and unanswered questionsBorn to Kill - Ivan MilatBackpacker murders - WikipediaIvan Milat, the notorious Australian Backpacker serial killer -- — Profile of a Killer — Crime Library on truTV.comMaitland Correctional Centre Escape Attempt - 20/05/1997 - QWN - NSW ParliamentSkeleton key to unlock Milat mystery? | Herald SunRegina v Milat Matter No Cca 60438/96 [1998] NSWSC 795 (26 February 1998)Milat says brothers innocent - ABC NewsMatthew Milat, nephew
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Hey, everyone is Jen, and this is Lindsay, and this
is Corpus Delictai. The podcast still an allergy season.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yes for sure, does not seem to be going away
anytime soon. So we are going to pick up with
part two of Ivan Malatt's story super quick recap. A
lot of people go missing in Bilanglo National Forest in Australia.
Most all but one were in pairs. One person was
(00:52):
found alone and had been traveling alone. They were found
killed in various manners, shooting, beat stabbing, and the stabbings
all seemed to have severed the spine which would have
paralyzed the victims. And when we left off, the task
force had just found their guy, identified by Paul Onions,
(01:15):
who had escaped from Ivan Malat. So Ivan Malat is
arrested on May twenty second, nineteen ninety four. But when
we say arrested, it was an all out cinematic arrest
with fifty officers surrounding the home movie style, almost like
a swat team. So they arrived at six thirty am
(01:38):
and he was originally arrested on robbery and weapons charges
from Paul's incident so that they could get him in
custody while they're putting all the pieces together and getting
all that tangible evidence and really making their case. So
what they do is the lead negotiator is outside his
house and he calls him on the phone and he says,
(01:58):
mister Ivan Malat is it And the person inside the
house says no. And the negotiator said, is Ivan Malatt there?
And the man said nope, he's not here at the moment,
but they knew it was him. They can see in
the windows and all that. They told him to come
out of the house, along with anyone else who was
in there. Ivan is telling his girlfriend, who's at the
house with him, Look, this is a joke.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
This is the guys at work.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
There's only one man out at the door. I can
see him out there on the phone. I don't see
any police. This is just a joke. Well, when he
walked outside, that window only had a very limited view
because there were a lot they were everywhere outside, and
he knows that the jig is up.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
At that point, the police did go inside the house.
They found multiple weapons, a lot of weapons, including a
twenty two caliber rifle that ended up matching the type
that was used in the murders. They also found foreign
currency from Indonesia, clothes, a tent, sleeping bags, lots of
(03:00):
other camping equipment, a camouflaged knife, and multiple cameras that
a lot of this belonged to the victims. They also
found some moons, green water bottle. Again, that's pretty damning.
Now with the Indonesian currency, they were able to determine
that Iven had never been there, but two of the victims,
(03:20):
the German couple, were in Indonesia right before they came
to Australia. They also found black electrical tape that looked
like tape found near the German couple's bodies. Also, when
we say sleeping bags, we know that they're not his.
So remember when we were talking about each of the
(03:41):
victims and what was found. But remember what we didn't
say they're camping stuff, they're sleeping bags because he had
taken everything as trophies. There was also a picture on
the table of Ivan's girlfriend wearing a shirt that looked
identical to the one worn by Caroline, And this is
(04:01):
so creepy. The girlfriend is wearing his victim's clothes.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
They also found a postcard and they asked Ivan who
it was from, and Ivan says it's from a friend
in New Zealand. But what's interesting about this postcard is
it was addressed HI Bill. Now Ivan has already admitted
this is his postcard. A friend sent it to me, right,
and they're like, wait, why does it say Bill? Your
(04:26):
name's Ivan. But where else have we heard the name Bill?
Well with Paul onions in the car, and Ivan's like, oh, well,
it must have been a mistake. I have a brother
named Bill. They probably just got confused. So during this search,
they left no stone unturned. And when I say that,
I mean it literally. They were pulling up the driveway,
they took the roofing off the house, any rocks in
(04:48):
the garden. I mean they turned it upside down because
they just kept finding stuff, sleeping bags, water bottles, backpacks.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
It's like you said, the that they found the victims.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
And maybe a camera here and there is because he
took everything else. These people were backpacking for long periods
of time. They had supplies with them. Where the heck
were they?
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Well, now we know.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So they also went to his parents' home and siblings' homes,
because Ivan, at different times had lived with different family
members here and there. He lived with his sister at
one point. He lived with his brother at one point,
and in the other homes they found a total of
twenty four weapons, tons of AMMO, and more items belonging
(05:38):
to the victims. Now, this is not at Ivan's home
at this point, this is his parents' homes and siblings homes.
One of these items that they found was a long
curved Cattley sword. Keep in mind, he beheaded one of
his victims and this was at his mom's house. Now,
speaking of siblings, they found at least one backpack at
(05:59):
Alex's house. Now, remember Alex. Alex is the brother who
turned in the tip, saying, Oh I saw him driving
down the road and he had hands that looked clean.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
He's not a laborer.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And we said, uh, what was his strategy with that?
Alex said, when the police asked, he said, oh, Ivan
gave me that backpack.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
It was a gift.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
He gave it to me for a holiday and he
specified that. Okay, he specified that. Remember that Ivan gave
it to me. Now, they also found Paul Onion's shirt
that had been in Paul's bag that he left behind
when he ran. Now we have said he was living
with family. At one point, he lived with his mother
(06:38):
at one point, I lived with a sister at one point.
Here's the question, did they know he was stashing stuff?
How do you not know? But how would they know?
And I don't know where all of this was located?
But I do know and we talk about it a
(06:59):
little bit later on that at his house there were
certain things that were like behind the wall.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So where were these items behind the wall?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Some of them?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, so weird. And the wonder they were pulling up
the roof exactly exactly. Stuff was everywhere.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So did the family know? Did they not? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And again that comes up more again at the end
of this story. So Ivan Malat is then officially charged
with the murders of seven backpackers.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Ivan's not in the best position right now. Yeah, I
mean they're finding things in and over rocks, under the ceiling,
mom's house, sister's house, brother's house. So the trial begins
on March twenty fifth, nineteen ninety six. The defense is
that all this evidence is circumstantial and pointed at the
(07:48):
finger at his siblings. Bill's name is the one that
came up their houses, had the weapons. They actually had
the victims items too. Perhaps they're framing their brother. Well,
a total of one hundred and forty five witnesses took
the stand. That's a lot, and this is why the
(08:08):
trial lasted eighteen weeks.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So I want to stop for just a second, because
when I was researching this and I got to the
defensive theory about you know, maybe they were framing him,
Bill's name came up. I was like, oh, come on,
But for half a second, for half a second, it
makes me wonder, because you've got one brother that was
(08:37):
mistaken for him in the photo lineup. You've got another
brother who called in a mighty convenient tip that either
could have helped or hurt his brother. Not really sure
where we stand on that one.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
But.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
It's just odd. I don't know, it's just it's odd.
And for half a second I was like, you know what,
that is interesting. I'm not saying I believe that, but
for half a second, I was like, it's not the
worst strategy I've ever heard. Let's just put it out.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It's definitely not. But I mean, you also have Ivan's
extensive history, absolutely with everything and his behavioral history. We
don't hear much we don't know about Bill's history, about
his childhood, history. But it's a good strategy going in
for the defense. Now, what witness who took the stand,
(09:32):
who was an old coal worker of Ivan's, said that
he'd once told them that stabbing a woman was like
cutting a loaf abroad. Again, you're not helping your cost.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
And that's where it's like, Okay, it was Ivan, because
he's this is not the first time we've heard something
like this.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
But oh absolutely, yeah. Now his family is circling the wagons.
They are saying, no, he was with me at this time,
or this one's saying no, he was with me at
this time. So there they're plugging in all of these
times where he is not at work during the time
the murders are happening and giving him an alibi. And
(10:10):
then Ivan does something we tell people all the time,
do not do. He testifies. He is the prime example
of why a lot of attorneys don't want you to
He did not perform well under cross examination. For an example,
the Crown prosecutors set them up perfectly by asking a
(10:31):
very intentional question about a pair of gloves, to which
I even replied I never wore no, and then stopped
himself abruptly.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
He was about to say, I never wore no gloves. Yeah,
there were no gloves. They knew that. The attorneys knew that.
And they said, well, we've got these gloves that are
linked to the crime. What do you have to say
about that? And he's like, I never wore Oh.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
He was found guilty on seven counts of murder on
July twenty seventh, nineteen ninety six. The jury, having to
go through all the evidence once more, took them about
three days. The sentencing was seven consecutive life sentences without parole,
additional eighteen years for the other crimes, which included the
(11:18):
attempted murder, false imprisonment, and robbery. His family is being
swarmed after this. Did they think I even did that?
Did they do it? How did they not know? How
did they know? His brother, Richard was the one that
suggested by the defense as a suspect and was asked
if he was scared that he was going to be arrested.
(11:40):
His response is like, look, if they thought I did it,
I wouldn't be standing here talking to you. But can
you imagine someone in your family doing all of this
big horrific media, blown out of the water situation. And
they're like, we did you know, did you not know?
How could you not know? So, I mean they're getting
peppered with question.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Well, and that's part of the problem with the defensive
strategy is you basically just put a target on these
people if they are innocent. And they hear that this
is the strategy. Now people are coming after them thinking, oh, well,
maybe they did it, you know. And again, this family
dynamic is going to come up in discussion a lot more,
and it's gonna come up when we get to the
(12:22):
true crime.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Theater piece of this.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So stick with us because I really want to talk
through that. So the eldest brother, Boris, We've talked about
him a lot. He said something very interesting, and this
is from an article by True TV quote when asked
if he thought that Ivan was innocent, he answered, all
my brothers are capable of extreme violence given the right
time and place. Individually, the things I can tell you
(12:48):
are much worse than what Ivan's meant to have done.
Everywhere he's worked, people have disappeared. I know where he's been.
Then he says, if Ivan's done these murders, I reckon
he's done a hell of a lot more. They ask
him how many, and his reply was about twenty eight,
(13:08):
So so he.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Must have really really thought about this. Yeah, and at
night he's calculating in his head what his brother.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
That he thinks his brothers did. Yeah, that's specific because
he was just convicted of seven. And they're like, well,
you sound like you think he did this, you think
there's more? How many? And he comes out with a
very specific, calculated twenty eight.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
But he is not the only one who thinks that.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
The police definitely believe there is a strong chance there
are more victims, and possibly a lot more. So, remember
the task force that we talked about, they found a
bunch of stuff, but they were easily able to tie
the seven murders that we talked about, but they found
evidence dating back to nineteen seventy one and potentially involving
(14:02):
fifty eight more victims. So what they did is they
started looking at missing people whose cases met the profile
in them. And these people were from all over America, England, Germany, Italy,
New Zealand and in fact, there is a whole other
set of cases in another country that was assumed to
(14:23):
be the work of another unknown serial killer that they
realized very well actually might be even once they did
all you know, figured all this out. They're looking elsewhere,
and they were like, oh my gosh, wait a minute,
we think he might be this other serial killer too.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Because remember in our last episode he went to New
Zealand for a little bit and he came abruptly home.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Yep, So.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Could his behavior in Australia match just behavior in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Some of these were missing persons cases, so of course
there's not necessarily any evidence to go on without the body,
so it didn't result in anything. But some of them
do sound pretty suspicious, and we're going to talk about
a few of them just high level, just to see
what we think here. Is that a possibility?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
So one of them, for an example, is February of
nineteen seventy one. Karen Rowland, who was twenty and pregnant,
was with her sister on a road trip in two
separate cars when they were supposed to meet at a
motel and Karen never showed. Her car was found in
a remote location the next day. Coworker said Ivan said
(15:35):
he was bragging about murdering someone and bearing her under
Bushland that that he was just talking and joking. But
eyewitnesses did see a woman that matched Karen's description being
chased by a man in a gold colored car. At
the time, Ivan drove a gold Ford Fherrmont.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
So there was another victim, eighteen year old Peter Letcher,
who was found skeletal and covered with leaves and branches.
He had been shot with a twenty two caliber, stabbed
multiple times in the back, and sexually assaulted. Now, this
was when Ivan Malatt was married to his brother's wife.
(16:16):
Cousin's wife don't remember one of them, and she said
that Ivan had actually taken her once to almost this
exact specific location not long before Letcher's murder, to show
her a dirt track and a pine plantation, so he
knew that exact specific spot.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
In July two thousand and five, Ivan's lawyer is dying
and before he does, he's clearing his conscious he stated
that Ivan had helped from his sister Shirley in at
least one set of the murders. Now, Shirley had passed
away in two thousand and three. Ivan denies that his
family was involved in any way, so again hecting the
(17:00):
family not routing out each other. But it's interesting that
the lawyer said that about his sister.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Well, and here's my question, did she help him with
the murders or did she kind of help him after?
Because we know he was stashing stuff and in nineteen
ninety three, I haven't moved in with Shirley, and she
knew he had guns there. She did not approve of them,
and she asked who of her other brothers to come
help move it all. So when we say that the
(17:34):
lawyer said she helped in the murder, does that mean
helped him kind of store stuff? I mean, that's still,
in a way kind of assisting. It's not assisting in
the actual killing, but storing his stuff. Did she know
about that? Because she did know about the gun, But
that's because she didn't approve of the guns. But if
he's coming to her with a backpack and camping gear
(17:54):
and says, I need you to stash this, I might
meet it one day, blah blah.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Blah, is that what he means by she helped him?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Because if you're assisting, if you're assisting your brother in
a murder, you gotta be okay with the guns. Right.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Maybe I don't. I don't know. I don't know the
extent of what he meant by that, But he did
say she assisted in at least one set of the murders.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
So well, we're gonna get to Ivan's time in prison
right after the promo break. All right, guys, welcome back
from the break. Now we are going to talk about
Ivan's imprisonment and later his death. While imprisoned at Goulburn
(18:46):
Correctional Center and later Long Bay Correctional Center, he is
certainly not quiet behind bars. He knows he's in there
for the rest of his life. He's got nothing to lose.
In nineteen ninety seven, he was caught creating an escape
plan that he himself mastermind, along with some other participants,
(19:06):
and then he was put into a maximum security This
is what the report said. With the assistance of two
other inmates, these men thought they would be able to
scale an eight meter wall with razor wire, guard wire
and cameras and microwave surveillance. They thought they could get
(19:26):
through the gates overlooked by guard towers and staffed by
officers armed with Ruger rifles. What Ivan and the co
conspirators did not know was that their plan had been
detected weeks before.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
So when we say, how are you going to climb
that wall? So when we say he masterminded this plan.
This was not masterminded.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
This was the good old school. I'm gonna just run
and jump. I'm gonna pull vault over and give it
the old college dry.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
That's what you know what.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
We're just gonna hope the guards are looking the other
way that day.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Well apparently they knew about it weeks before. Let them
do it. And then they were like no, no.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Right, no, they got it.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
They're like sorry. So then in two thousand and one
he is getting attention in prison for self harm. But
his intentions are what is strange. So if you do
not like talk about self harm, just skip ahead a
little bit. But once he swallowed razors, then later he
did it with staples.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Then years later he.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Refused to eat and went on a hunger strike for
nine days. Why while this is literally him temper tantruming
and trying to get his way, and the hunger strike
was because they wouldn't give him a PlayStation, sir, you're
in prison, we don't do that here. So he's not
doing these things because he actually wants to harm himself.
(20:52):
He is throwing tantrums to try and get his way.
One of them was because of an appeal was denied,
and he was mad and he is hurting himself in
the process. Then in January two thousand and nine, he
cuts off his little finger with a plastic knife. That's
dedication plastic knife. Why well, he wants to mail it
(21:16):
to the High Court to force an appeal. So that
appeal got denied. It's up again. He says, I'm gonna
make them do it. I'm gonna chop off my finger
because that's gonna make them do it. Yes, this man
is mentally stable. Let's let him out. He chopped off
his finger.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
But that's boom.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
That's not easy. That is not easy, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So May twenty fifteen, this is from biography dot com.
His brother Bors comes forward and said that Ivan was
responsible for another shooting, that of a taxi cab driver
in Nailville night in nineteen sixty two. So he waited
a long long time before he came out with this.
Stephen Aperian, a former homicide detective who serves as a
(22:02):
consultant for the LAPD and the FBI, among others, was
called to conduct a polygraph test with Boris and Alan Dillon.
The man convicted a paralyzing night with gunshot to the
back all those years ago. The test convinced a parent
that both men are telling the truth and that I
(22:22):
even did in fact shoot Knight. The victim was paralyzed,
which sat weirdly with some because of the back injuries
for the other murders.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So there was actually someone else who was convicted for
this crime, and they had to bring in Boris and
the guy Alan Dillon who was convicted of the crime
and tried to determine what they think happened. But that
is weird because kind of what bors is hinting at here,
I mean, it's nineteen sixty two. He shot him in
the back, paralyzed the person. This was one of his
(22:53):
earliest kills, according to Boris, and that it triggered or
fascinated some thing in his mind where this paralyization became
a thing. So then let's cut to October twenty seventh,
twenty nineteen. Ivan Malatt dies from terminal esophagus and stomach
(23:14):
cancer while in prison. He had been diagnosed just that
May and had been receiving chemotherapy, and he's on his deathbed.
They're going to try really hard to get him to
confess to some of these other killings, get some closure
for these families, right, But he would not, although he
did allegedly admit to his mother about the seven murders
(23:35):
that we know about, so he did apparently tell her, yes,
what I'm in.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
For, I did do those.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
So he's got thirteen siblings, twelve technically because one passed
away as a teenager. How did they feel about it?
Surely they hear our brother's a serial killer. They all
turned on him, right, wrong. Only one sibling is outspoken,
and again we are going to get to that very
(24:02):
very shortly. But Ivan Malap became known as the backpacker
murderer in media. If you hear the backpacker murderer, that
is who it is referring to. And it did lead
to a lot of increased awareness and caution among hitchhikers
and backpackers. You know, watch your surroundings, don't get in
the car, re strangers, that type of thing where you know,
(24:22):
a lot of that was happening in the US too
around that time with hitchhikers too. So now we are
going to get into our true crime theater piece, and
this is where I feel like there's a lot to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Wolf Creek was released in two thousand and five. It
is an Australian horror film about three backpackers who were
kidnapped and hunted by a serial killer. Now the killer
in the movie is named Mick Taylor, so obviously the
name is changed. Well, it's based on Ivan. It is
also based on Bradley John Murdoch, who murdered an English backpacker.
(24:59):
But in two thousand and one. Craik made its debut
at the Sundance Film Festival in January two thousand and
five and it was released in theaters in the UK
and Australia. It eventually found its way to the US
and Canada. It said to be pretty violent. It doesn't
sit very well with some people, and others argue that
it's just made it more authentic. There's also a mini
(25:21):
series on the Seven network called Catching Malatt and this
series looks through the lens of the Task Force.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
So while we talked about the movie and the mini series,
there's one thing that I want to focus on, and
this is a little bit out of the norm, but
I just was fascinated by it. There was a special
done by ABC News in Depth. So this is the
Australian ABC that I found on YouTube and it's called
(25:50):
Growing Up with Ivan Malatt, an insight into the Backpacker Killer,
and this was done back in two thousand and four,
and this was it's just so interesting. So it's got
family and people who knew him. And when we first
started this, we talked about how there were a lot
of different takes. It seemed like one person said, oh,
(26:11):
it was the parents were normal. Another one's saying the
parents weren't normal, and this special was very much the same.
And it was very interesting to see the different takes.
So some people in.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
This definitely thought he did it. Some thought they.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Didn't want to make an assumption, and some say he's
totally normal. They never saw a secret side, he didn't
do it, and others say, no, he was totally evil. Okay,
so you've got family and friends here. Now we're gonna
bring Boris back into this. His older brother, Boris says
that he knew from early on that something was off
with Ivan, and it sounds like for whatever reason, he
(26:51):
suspected Ivan and the murders early on. Boris actually changed
his name from Malatt a month before Ivan was rested
because quote, he just knew, so before Ivan was arrested,
Boris says, I'm changing my name because Ivan's done something
bad and I just know it's coming. That is strange
(27:14):
to me. How did you How did you know that
was coming? But Boris did end up changing his name
back later to take his power back. Now, Bill, we've
talked about Bill because Ivan used the name Bill. Bill
said he was totally completely blindsided, didn't see it coming.
(27:34):
Bill's wife believes Ivan when Ivan says he didn't do it.
The rest of the family, Bill included, is kind of
in denial except Boris, and I think a lot of
this has to do.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
With the loyalty.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Now, the only other person other than Boris who thinks
that Ivan did this is Maureen. Now, Marene is a
wally's wife that Ivan had the affair with.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
So remember he he.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Had an affair with two of his brother's wives and
then his cousin's girlfriend. This was his second brother's wife.
She thinks he's guilty as well. So ask the family,
Ask the siblings, Well, if he didn't do it, y'all
are all defending him. You think he didn't do it?
How did the victim's items get into his house? Well,
they say that the police put them there. Well, did
(28:23):
they put him in everybody else's houses too, because we've
got half the family with items in their house. His
family thinks that Boris is against Ivan because of the
affair with his wife way back when, when his wife
got pregnant, and he thinks it's Boris's kids. So Boris
is basically pissed at him still, and that's why they
think he has turned on Boris. But Boris does not
(28:45):
think that any of his siblings could or would have
been involved, and they were mostly alibied during the crimes.
But the family thinks that the police planted all these items. Right, Well,
there's one big problem with that. Let's go back to Alex.
Remember Alex. Alex turned in that tip. Well, Alex was
(29:05):
specific when police asked him where he got that backpack
that Ivan gave it to him. He said, this was
a gift from my brother Ivan. Alex is constantly thrown
Ivan under the bus. I don't know if he means
to or not, but the whole family's out here saying no,
it was planted, and Alex is like, nah, he gave
me that backpack that came right from Ivan.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
He's calling in tips. What my question here.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Is is that a coincidence, like, did he know something
and he was trying to turn his brother in without
being a snitch or being seen as disloyal. Because I cannot,
for the life of me, with the amount of evidence
that was in this case, figure out how twelve people
(29:51):
eleven I guess, would stand up for him this much.
But when you go back and you look at them
as kids, their mother stepped in every time the police
came and defended them. You've got one brother stepping in
and taking the fall for the other. You've got the
dad who gets pissed at Ivan because he slept with
his brother's wife. And there's there's this sense of loyalty.
(30:13):
This family is all each other knows. They don't really
have social lives. They work together, they play together. It
is very much you stand up and you defend.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
It's a community, Yeah, you defend.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
They created their own tight knit community where if something's
going to happen, they're going to deal with it within
the ranks. They're they're not going to go outside. And
I think Boris and Alex probably made a big rift
in that.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Well because think about it this way. Boris, while he
has spoken out and said I think Ivan did this
Boris held some secrets himself, because Boris says later, oh,
by the way, I think there's twenty eight of them,
And then he also says, oh, and also his first murder,
he shot someone and paralyzed them in the back. So
(31:07):
there were things that Boris was not coming out and
saying either, even though he said I think he did it.
Why is that? Why was he still so conditioned to
keep that close to the cuff. And I can't help
but think that Alex was trying to kind of do
the same or there's a lot a lot of people
(31:27):
out there.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Who think.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
That some of the family was involved and that it
was Alex's way of trying to kind of tell on
them by saying, oh, there were more than just Ivan
in the car when I saw them, it was more
than just Ivan. There's a lot of people who think
that as well, and that they're just not saying it because, oh,
we can't talk about it type thing. Now there's one
(31:52):
article that said something really interesting and this is from
ABC Australia. This is from Alex. And while most of
Malat's eleven surviving brothers and sisters publicly deny his guilt,
it's a different story in private, the brothers often refer
to Ivan as quote the schizophrenic and say that he
is in the right place. So if that is true,
(32:15):
that still goes back to that sense of loyalty protecting
the family name. We may think it, but we cannot
say it.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
That's not the only murder in the family. A seventeen
year old relative who wasn't initially named since they were
a minor, is convicted of an axe murder in twenty ten.
It seems that it's a nephew, Matthew Malatt, and he's
serving forty three years.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
They named him once, he was no longer a miner,
so they didn't name him for years, and then now
it's Matthew Malatt.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
He and a friend lured another friend into the same forest,
the state forest, and recorded themselves killing him with an
ax on his birthday, the victory birthday, Yeah, the victim's birthday.
Now he is said to have gloated about this and said,
you know me, you know my family, you know my
(33:08):
last name, Mallett. I did what they do very It
sounds like there's.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
A lot of.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Challenges in that family, and.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I might be reading too much into this. I can
see that, but When I first heard that their dad
said I have to kill him to Boris, it struck
me as odd. And now, look, I have joked about
things like that before, By god, you know I have,
but you know, and I don't know the contacts he
(33:47):
said it in, but it did struck me. It did
strike me as very odd that he would say, we
have to kill him. And we do know that Ivan
was not the only one who got in trouble as
a teenager. Hey, he did get in trouble with at
least two of his other brothers. Based on the history
that we could find, Does that mean that he acted alone?
(34:09):
Not necessarily either way. Now, to be clear, there is
no proof. No one has been charged. There is no
proof that anyone else helped him. But a lot of
people think it based on these things, based on Alex dropping,
these little hints, based on the two different guns that
even the police were like, this has to be more
(34:33):
than one person. Based on the fact that his items
were found at other people's houses.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Now, again, that does not mean they knew that.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
The stuff was in their house, but all those things
together makes a lot of people suspicious that there.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Was more going on.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
However, to be clear, there is no proof, there are
no charges, so put it that way.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
But it is a twist and turn story for sure.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
I had actually never heard of him until I started
researching movies based on true crimes. And he's a bad,
bad dude.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, I'm really interested in the New Zealand. You know what,
Could there any be any case linked to him in
New Zealand?
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, I think it's possible. And they seem too as well,
because some of those ones that they found, I mean
suspecting him in fifty eight. And let's assume you know
they're not all him, because again they don't have bodies
on all of them. But you've got Boris out there
saying there were twenty eight. That's mighty darn specific it is.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
But definitely go watch the YouTube. Tell us what you think.
Not much in the way of updates Patreon. You should
have your gifts soon. If you want to be a
Patreon go to patreon dot com slash Corpus Delicti. A
dollar gets you a bunch of free stuff, ads, ad
free episodes. Three dollars gets you into our discord page
(36:00):
with our channels, where we have multiple channels to talk
about movies, fitness books. I get all my book recommendations
from there, to be honest, and I share ours where
avid readers. Of course, we give Discord the fastest access
to all the information we have about Rocky. They're first
(36:22):
to know. And Rocky is moved to Saint Claire Correctional
YEP correction Institution, and so hopefully we'll be able to
talk to him soon, hopefully go see him. He's closer
to his family now, so it makes it a lot
easier for them, and he is officially off death row,
which we are super excited.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Well, and we'll try to get his updated mailing address
because now he's got a lot more time to sit
and look at pictures and postcards and letters. He has
so much more time now to enjoy those things. And y'all,
it was just so fricking close there, Like I mean,
we thought it was. I just can't even emphasize enough
(37:04):
how much we thought that. Unfortunately it was the end
and it's not. So he has all this time now
and we want to fill it with amazing, wonderful.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Happy things.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Jenna and I have some ideas brewing about some things
we've been thinking about for him and whatnot, So stay tuned.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
We'll get that to y'all. Also, we are.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Still working We mentioned a few episodes ago on the
Peyton Houston case. We are still working on that. We've
talked to her mother quite a bit and just kind
of figuring out how to structure all that. So that's
still going on in the background. But yeah, until then,
we're gonna keep trekking along with True Crime Theater too.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Until then, you know what they said to Felicia, Bye bye,
Hey, everyone is Jen, and this is Lindsay, and this
is Corpus Delictai. The podcast still an allergy season.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yes for sure, does not seem to be going away
anytime soon. So we are going to pick up with
part two of Ivan Malatt's story super quick recap. A
lot of people go missing in Bilanglo National Forest in Australia.
Most all but one were in pairs. One person was
(00:52):
found alone and had been traveling alone. They were found
killed in various manners, shooting, beat stabbing, and the stabbings
all seemed to have severed the spine which would have
paralyzed the victims. And when we left off, the task
force had just found their guy, identified by Paul Onions,
(01:15):
who had escaped from Ivan Malat. So Ivan Malat is
arrested on May twenty second, nineteen ninety four. But when
we say arrested, it was an all out cinematic arrest
with fifty officers surrounding the home movie style, almost like
a swat team. So they arrived at six thirty am
(01:38):
and he was originally arrested on robbery and weapons charges
from Paul's incident so that they could get him in
custody while they're putting all the pieces together and getting
all that tangible evidence and really making their case. So
what they do is the lead negotiator is outside his
house and he calls him on the phone and he says,
(01:58):
mister Ivan Malat is it And the person inside the
house says no. And the negotiator said, is Ivan Malatt there?
And the man said nope, he's not here at the moment,
but they knew it was him. They can see in
the windows and all that. They told him to come
out of the house, along with anyone else who was
in there. Ivan is telling his girlfriend, who's at the
house with him, Look, this is a joke.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
This is the guys at work.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
There's only one man out at the door. I can
see him out there on the phone. I don't see
any police. This is just a joke. Well, when he
walked outside, that window only had a very limited view
because there were a lot they were everywhere outside, and
he knows that the jig is up.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
At that point, the police did go inside the house.
They found multiple weapons, a lot of weapons, including a
twenty two caliber rifle that ended up matching the type
that was used in the murders. They also found foreign
currency from Indonesia, clothes, a tent, sleeping bags, lots of
(03:00):
other camping equipment, a camouflaged knife, and multiple cameras that
a lot of this belonged to the victims. They also
found some moons, green water bottle. Again, that's pretty damning.
Now with the Indonesian currency, they were able to determine
that Iven had never been there, but two of the victims,
(03:20):
the German couple, were in Indonesia right before they came
to Australia. They also found black electrical tape that looked
like tape found near the German couple's bodies. Also, when
we say sleeping bags, we know that they're not his.
So remember when we were talking about each of the
(03:41):
victims and what was found. But remember what we didn't
say they're camping stuff, they're sleeping bags because he had
taken everything as trophies. There was also a picture on
the table of Ivan's girlfriend wearing a shirt that looked
identical to the one worn by Caroline, And this is
(04:01):
so creepy. The girlfriend is wearing his victim's clothes.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
They also found a postcard and they asked Ivan who
it was from, and Ivan says it's from a friend
in New Zealand. But what's interesting about this postcard is
it was addressed HI Bill. Now Ivan has already admitted
this is his postcard. A friend sent it to me, right,
and they're like, wait, why does it say Bill? Your
(04:26):
name's Ivan. But where else have we heard the name Bill?
Well with Paul onions in the car, and Ivan's like, oh, well,
it must have been a mistake. I have a brother
named Bill. They probably just got confused. So during this search,
they left no stone unturned. And when I say that,
I mean it literally. They were pulling up the driveway,
they took the roofing off the house, any rocks in
(04:48):
the garden. I mean they turned it upside down because
they just kept finding stuff, sleeping bags, water bottles, backpacks.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
It's like you said, the that they found the victims.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
And maybe a camera here and there is because he
took everything else. These people were backpacking for long periods
of time. They had supplies with them. Where the heck
were they?
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Well, now we know.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So they also went to his parents' home and siblings' homes,
because Ivan, at different times had lived with different family
members here and there. He lived with his sister at
one point. He lived with his brother at one point,
and in the other homes they found a total of
twenty four weapons, tons of AMMO, and more items belonging
(05:38):
to the victims. Now, this is not at Ivan's home
at this point, this is his parents' homes and siblings homes.
One of these items that they found was a long
curved Cattley sword. Keep in mind, he beheaded one of
his victims and this was at his mom's house. Now,
speaking of siblings, they found at least one backpack at
(05:59):
Alex's house. Now, remember Alex. Alex is the brother who
turned in the tip, saying, Oh I saw him driving
down the road and he had hands that looked clean.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
He's not a laborer.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And we said, uh, what was his strategy with that?
Alex said, when the police asked, he said, oh, Ivan
gave me that backpack.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
It was a gift.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
He gave it to me for a holiday and he
specified that. Okay, he specified that. Remember that Ivan gave
it to me. Now, they also found Paul Onion's shirt
that had been in Paul's bag that he left behind
when he ran. Now we have said he was living
with family. At one point, he lived with his mother
(06:38):
at one point, I lived with a sister at one point.
Here's the question, did they know he was stashing stuff?
How do you not know? But how would they know?
And I don't know where all of this was located?
But I do know and we talk about it a
(06:59):
little bit later on that at his house there were
certain things that were like behind the wall.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So where were these items behind the wall?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Some of them?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, so weird. And the wonder they were pulling up
the roof exactly exactly. Stuff was everywhere.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So did the family know? Did they not? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And again that comes up more again at the end
of this story. So Ivan Malat is then officially charged
with the murders of seven backpackers.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Ivan's not in the best position right now. Yeah, I
mean they're finding things in and over rocks, under the ceiling,
mom's house, sister's house, brother's house. So the trial begins
on March twenty fifth, nineteen ninety six. The defense is
that all this evidence is circumstantial and pointed at the
(07:48):
finger at his siblings. Bill's name is the one that
came up their houses, had the weapons. They actually had
the victims items too. Perhaps they're framing their brother. Well,
a total of one hundred and forty five witnesses took
the stand. That's a lot, and this is why the
(08:08):
trial lasted eighteen weeks.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So I want to stop for just a second, because
when I was researching this and I got to the
defensive theory about you know, maybe they were framing him,
Bill's name came up. I was like, oh, come on,
But for half a second, for half a second, it
makes me wonder, because you've got one brother that was
(08:37):
mistaken for him in the photo lineup. You've got another
brother who called in a mighty convenient tip that either
could have helped or hurt his brother. Not really sure
where we stand on that one.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
But.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
It's just odd. I don't know, it's just it's odd.
And for half a second I was like, you know what,
that is interesting. I'm not saying I believe that, but
for half a second, I was like, it's not the
worst strategy I've ever heard. Let's just put it out.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It's definitely not. But I mean, you also have Ivan's
extensive history, absolutely with everything and his behavioral history. We
don't hear much we don't know about Bill's history, about
his childhood, history. But it's a good strategy going in
for the defense. Now, what witness who took the stand,
(09:32):
who was an old coal worker of Ivan's, said that
he'd once told them that stabbing a woman was like
cutting a loaf abroad. Again, you're not helping your cost.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
And that's where it's like, Okay, it was Ivan, because
he's this is not the first time we've heard something
like this.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
But oh absolutely, yeah. Now his family is circling the wagons.
They are saying, no, he was with me at this time,
or this one's saying no, he was with me at
this time. So there they're plugging in all of these
times where he is not at work during the time
the murders are happening and giving him an alibi. And
(10:10):
then Ivan does something we tell people all the time,
do not do. He testifies. He is the prime example
of why a lot of attorneys don't want you to
He did not perform well under cross examination. For an example,
the Crown prosecutors set them up perfectly by asking a
(10:31):
very intentional question about a pair of gloves, to which
I even replied I never wore no, and then stopped
himself abruptly.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
He was about to say, I never wore no gloves. Yeah,
there were no gloves. They knew that. The attorneys knew that.
And they said, well, we've got these gloves that are
linked to the crime. What do you have to say
about that? And he's like, I never wore Oh.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
He was found guilty on seven counts of murder on
July twenty seventh, nineteen ninety six. The jury, having to
go through all the evidence once more, took them about
three days. The sentencing was seven consecutive life sentences without parole,
additional eighteen years for the other crimes, which included the
(11:18):
attempted murder, false imprisonment, and robbery. His family is being
swarmed after this. Did they think I even did that?
Did they do it? How did they not know? How
did they know? His brother, Richard was the one that
suggested by the defense as a suspect and was asked
if he was scared that he was going to be arrested.
(11:40):
His response is like, look, if they thought I did it,
I wouldn't be standing here talking to you. But can
you imagine someone in your family doing all of this
big horrific media, blown out of the water situation. And
they're like, we did you know, did you not know?
How could you not know? So, I mean they're getting
peppered with question.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Well, and that's part of the problem with the defensive
strategy is you basically just put a target on these
people if they are innocent. And they hear that this
is the strategy. Now people are coming after them thinking, oh, well,
maybe they did it, you know. And again, this family
dynamic is going to come up in discussion a lot more,
and it's gonna come up when we get to the
(12:22):
true crime.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Theater piece of this.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So stick with us because I really want to talk
through that. So the eldest brother, Boris, We've talked about
him a lot. He said something very interesting, and this
is from an article by True TV quote when asked
if he thought that Ivan was innocent, he answered, all
my brothers are capable of extreme violence given the right
time and place. Individually, the things I can tell you
(12:48):
are much worse than what Ivan's meant to have done.
Everywhere he's worked, people have disappeared. I know where he's been.
Then he says, if Ivan's done these murders, I reckon
he's done a hell of a lot more. They ask
him how many, and his reply was about twenty eight,
(13:08):
So so he.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Must have really really thought about this. Yeah, and at
night he's calculating in his head what his brother.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
That he thinks his brothers did. Yeah, that's specific because
he was just convicted of seven. And they're like, well,
you sound like you think he did this, you think
there's more? How many? And he comes out with a
very specific, calculated twenty eight.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
But he is not the only one who thinks that.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
The police definitely believe there is a strong chance there
are more victims, and possibly a lot more. So, remember
the task force that we talked about, they found a
bunch of stuff, but they were easily able to tie
the seven murders that we talked about, but they found
evidence dating back to nineteen seventy one and potentially involving
(14:02):
fifty eight more victims. So what they did is they
started looking at missing people whose cases met the profile
in them. And these people were from all over America, England, Germany, Italy,
New Zealand and in fact, there is a whole other
set of cases in another country that was assumed to
(14:23):
be the work of another unknown serial killer that they
realized very well actually might be even once they did
all you know, figured all this out. They're looking elsewhere,
and they were like, oh my gosh, wait a minute,
we think he might be this other serial killer too.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Because remember in our last episode he went to New
Zealand for a little bit and he came abruptly home.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Yep, So.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Could his behavior in Australia match just behavior in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Some of these were missing persons cases, so of course
there's not necessarily any evidence to go on without the body,
so it didn't result in anything. But some of them
do sound pretty suspicious, and we're going to talk about
a few of them just high level, just to see
what we think here. Is that a possibility?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
So one of them, for an example, is February of
nineteen seventy one. Karen Rowland, who was twenty and pregnant,
was with her sister on a road trip in two
separate cars when they were supposed to meet at a
motel and Karen never showed. Her car was found in
a remote location the next day. Coworker said Ivan said
(15:35):
he was bragging about murdering someone and bearing her under
Bushland that that he was just talking and joking. But
eyewitnesses did see a woman that matched Karen's description being
chased by a man in a gold colored car. At
the time, Ivan drove a gold Ford Fherrmont.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
So there was another victim, eighteen year old Peter Letcher,
who was found skeletal and covered with leaves and branches.
He had been shot with a twenty two caliber, stabbed
multiple times in the back, and sexually assaulted. Now, this
was when Ivan Malatt was married to his brother's wife.
(16:16):
Cousin's wife don't remember one of them, and she said
that Ivan had actually taken her once to almost this
exact specific location not long before Letcher's murder, to show
her a dirt track and a pine plantation, so he
knew that exact specific spot.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
In July two thousand and five, Ivan's lawyer is dying
and before he does, he's clearing his conscious he stated
that Ivan had helped from his sister Shirley in at
least one set of the murders. Now, Shirley had passed
away in two thousand and three. Ivan denies that his
family was involved in any way, so again hecting the
(17:00):
family not routing out each other. But it's interesting that
the lawyer said that about his sister.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Well, and here's my question, did she help him with
the murders or did she kind of help him after?
Because we know he was stashing stuff and in nineteen
ninety three, I haven't moved in with Shirley, and she
knew he had guns there. She did not approve of them,
and she asked who of her other brothers to come
help move it all. So when we say that the
(17:34):
lawyer said she helped in the murder, does that mean
helped him kind of store stuff? I mean, that's still,
in a way kind of assisting. It's not assisting in
the actual killing, but storing his stuff. Did she know
about that? Because she did know about the gun, But
that's because she didn't approve of the guns. But if
he's coming to her with a backpack and camping gear
(17:54):
and says, I need you to stash this, I might
meet it one day, blah blah.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Blah, is that what he means by she helped him?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Because if you're assisting, if you're assisting your brother in
a murder, you gotta be okay with the guns. Right.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Maybe I don't. I don't know. I don't know the
extent of what he meant by that, But he did
say she assisted in at least one set of the murders.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
So well, we're gonna get to Ivan's time in prison
right after the promo break. All right, guys, welcome back
from the break. Now we are going to talk about
Ivan's imprisonment and later his death. While imprisoned at Goulburn
(18:46):
Correctional Center and later Long Bay Correctional Center, he is
certainly not quiet behind bars. He knows he's in there
for the rest of his life. He's got nothing to lose.
In nineteen ninety seven, he was caught creating an escape
plan that he himself mastermind, along with some other participants,
(19:06):
and then he was put into a maximum security This
is what the report said. With the assistance of two
other inmates, these men thought they would be able to
scale an eight meter wall with razor wire, guard wire
and cameras and microwave surveillance. They thought they could get
(19:26):
through the gates overlooked by guard towers and staffed by
officers armed with Ruger rifles. What Ivan and the co
conspirators did not know was that their plan had been
detected weeks before.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
So when we say, how are you going to climb
that wall? So when we say he masterminded this plan.
This was not masterminded.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
This was the good old school. I'm gonna just run
and jump. I'm gonna pull vault over and give it
the old college dry.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
That's what you know what.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
We're just gonna hope the guards are looking the other
way that day.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Well apparently they knew about it weeks before. Let them
do it. And then they were like no, no.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Right, no, they got it.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
They're like sorry. So then in two thousand and one
he is getting attention in prison for self harm. But
his intentions are what is strange. So if you do
not like talk about self harm, just skip ahead a
little bit. But once he swallowed razors, then later he
did it with staples.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Then years later he.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Refused to eat and went on a hunger strike for
nine days. Why while this is literally him temper tantruming
and trying to get his way, and the hunger strike
was because they wouldn't give him a PlayStation, sir, you're
in prison, we don't do that here. So he's not
doing these things because he actually wants to harm himself.
(20:52):
He is throwing tantrums to try and get his way.
One of them was because of an appeal was denied,
and he was mad and he is hurting himself in
the process. Then in January two thousand and nine, he
cuts off his little finger with a plastic knife. That's
dedication plastic knife. Why well, he wants to mail it
(21:16):
to the High Court to force an appeal. So that
appeal got denied. It's up again. He says, I'm gonna
make them do it. I'm gonna chop off my finger
because that's gonna make them do it. Yes, this man
is mentally stable. Let's let him out. He chopped off
his finger.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
But that's boom.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
That's not easy. That is not easy, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So May twenty fifteen, this is from biography dot com.
His brother Bors comes forward and said that Ivan was
responsible for another shooting, that of a taxi cab driver
in Nailville night in nineteen sixty two. So he waited
a long long time before he came out with this.
Stephen Aperian, a former homicide detective who serves as a
(22:02):
consultant for the LAPD and the FBI, among others, was
called to conduct a polygraph test with Boris and Alan Dillon.
The man convicted a paralyzing night with gunshot to the
back all those years ago. The test convinced a parent
that both men are telling the truth and that I
(22:22):
even did in fact shoot Knight. The victim was paralyzed,
which sat weirdly with some because of the back injuries
for the other murders.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So there was actually someone else who was convicted for
this crime, and they had to bring in Boris and
the guy Alan Dillon who was convicted of the crime
and tried to determine what they think happened. But that
is weird because kind of what bors is hinting at here,
I mean, it's nineteen sixty two. He shot him in
the back, paralyzed the person. This was one of his
(22:53):
earliest kills, according to Boris, and that it triggered or
fascinated some thing in his mind where this paralyization became
a thing. So then let's cut to October twenty seventh,
twenty nineteen. Ivan Malatt dies from terminal esophagus and stomach
(23:14):
cancer while in prison. He had been diagnosed just that
May and had been receiving chemotherapy, and he's on his deathbed.
They're going to try really hard to get him to
confess to some of these other killings, get some closure
for these families, right, But he would not, although he
did allegedly admit to his mother about the seven murders
(23:35):
that we know about, so he did apparently tell her, yes,
what I'm in.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
For, I did do those.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
So he's got thirteen siblings, twelve technically because one passed
away as a teenager. How did they feel about it?
Surely they hear our brother's a serial killer. They all
turned on him, right, wrong. Only one sibling is outspoken,
and again we are going to get to that very
(24:02):
very shortly. But Ivan Malap became known as the backpacker
murderer in media. If you hear the backpacker murderer, that
is who it is referring to. And it did lead
to a lot of increased awareness and caution among hitchhikers
and backpackers. You know, watch your surroundings, don't get in
the car, re strangers, that type of thing where you know,
(24:22):
a lot of that was happening in the US too
around that time with hitchhikers too. So now we are
going to get into our true crime theater piece, and
this is where I feel like there's a lot to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Wolf Creek was released in two thousand and five. It
is an Australian horror film about three backpackers who were
kidnapped and hunted by a serial killer. Now the killer
in the movie is named Mick Taylor, so obviously the
name is changed. Well, it's based on Ivan. It is
also based on Bradley John Murdoch, who murdered an English backpacker.
(24:59):
But in two thousand and one. Craik made its debut
at the Sundance Film Festival in January two thousand and
five and it was released in theaters in the UK
and Australia. It eventually found its way to the US
and Canada. It said to be pretty violent. It doesn't
sit very well with some people, and others argue that
it's just made it more authentic. There's also a mini
(25:21):
series on the Seven network called Catching Malatt and this
series looks through the lens of the Task Force.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
So while we talked about the movie and the mini series,
there's one thing that I want to focus on, and
this is a little bit out of the norm, but
I just was fascinated by it. There was a special
done by ABC News in Depth. So this is the
Australian ABC that I found on YouTube and it's called
(25:50):
Growing Up with Ivan Malatt, an insight into the Backpacker Killer,
and this was done back in two thousand and four,
and this was it's just so interesting. So it's got
family and people who knew him. And when we first
started this, we talked about how there were a lot
of different takes. It seemed like one person said, oh,
(26:11):
it was the parents were normal. Another one's saying the
parents weren't normal, and this special was very much the same.
And it was very interesting to see the different takes.
So some people in.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
This definitely thought he did it. Some thought they.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Didn't want to make an assumption, and some say he's
totally normal. They never saw a secret side, he didn't
do it, and others say, no, he was totally evil. Okay,
so you've got family and friends here. Now we're gonna
bring Boris back into this. His older brother, Boris says
that he knew from early on that something was off
with Ivan, and it sounds like for whatever reason, he
(26:51):
suspected Ivan and the murders early on. Boris actually changed
his name from Malatt a month before Ivan was rested
because quote, he just knew, so before Ivan was arrested,
Boris says, I'm changing my name because Ivan's done something
bad and I just know it's coming. That is strange
(27:14):
to me. How did you How did you know that
was coming? But Boris did end up changing his name
back later to take his power back. Now, Bill, we've
talked about Bill because Ivan used the name Bill. Bill
said he was totally completely blindsided, didn't see it coming.
(27:34):
Bill's wife believes Ivan when Ivan says he didn't do it.
The rest of the family, Bill included, is kind of
in denial except Boris, and I think a lot of
this has to do.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
With the loyalty.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Now, the only other person other than Boris who thinks
that Ivan did this is Maureen. Now, Marene is a
wally's wife that Ivan had the affair with.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
So remember he he.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Had an affair with two of his brother's wives and
then his cousin's girlfriend. This was his second brother's wife.
She thinks he's guilty as well. So ask the family,
Ask the siblings, Well, if he didn't do it, y'all
are all defending him. You think he didn't do it?
How did the victim's items get into his house? Well,
they say that the police put them there. Well, did
(28:23):
they put him in everybody else's houses too, because we've
got half the family with items in their house. His
family thinks that Boris is against Ivan because of the
affair with his wife way back when, when his wife
got pregnant, and he thinks it's Boris's kids. So Boris
is basically pissed at him still, and that's why they
think he has turned on Boris. But Boris does not
(28:45):
think that any of his siblings could or would have
been involved, and they were mostly alibied during the crimes.
But the family thinks that the police planted all these items. Right, Well,
there's one big problem with that. Let's go back to Alex.
Remember Alex. Alex turned in that tip. Well, Alex was
(29:05):
specific when police asked him where he got that backpack
that Ivan gave it to him. He said, this was
a gift from my brother Ivan. Alex is constantly thrown
Ivan under the bus. I don't know if he means
to or not, but the whole family's out here saying no,
it was planted, and Alex is like, nah, he gave
me that backpack that came right from Ivan.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
He's calling in tips. What my question here.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Is is that a coincidence, like, did he know something
and he was trying to turn his brother in without
being a snitch or being seen as disloyal. Because I cannot,
for the life of me, with the amount of evidence
that was in this case, figure out how twelve people
(29:51):
eleven I guess, would stand up for him this much.
But when you go back and you look at them
as kids, their mother stepped in every time the police
came and defended them. You've got one brother stepping in
and taking the fall for the other. You've got the
dad who gets pissed at Ivan because he slept with
his brother's wife. And there's there's this sense of loyalty.
(30:13):
This family is all each other knows. They don't really
have social lives. They work together, they play together. It
is very much you stand up and you defend.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
It's a community, Yeah, you defend.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
They created their own tight knit community where if something's
going to happen, they're going to deal with it within
the ranks. They're they're not going to go outside. And
I think Boris and Alex probably made a big rift
in that.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Well because think about it this way. Boris, while he
has spoken out and said I think Ivan did this
Boris held some secrets himself, because Boris says later, oh,
by the way, I think there's twenty eight of them,
And then he also says, oh, and also his first murder,
he shot someone and paralyzed them in the back. So
(31:07):
there were things that Boris was not coming out and
saying either, even though he said I think he did it.
Why is that? Why was he still so conditioned to
keep that close to the cuff. And I can't help
but think that Alex was trying to kind of do
the same or there's a lot a lot of people
(31:27):
out there.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Who think.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
That some of the family was involved and that it
was Alex's way of trying to kind of tell on
them by saying, oh, there were more than just Ivan
in the car when I saw them, it was more
than just Ivan. There's a lot of people who think
that as well, and that they're just not saying it because, oh,
we can't talk about it type thing. Now there's one
(31:52):
article that said something really interesting and this is from
ABC Australia. This is from Alex. And while most of
Malat's eleven surviving brothers and sisters publicly deny his guilt,
it's a different story in private, the brothers often refer
to Ivan as quote the schizophrenic and say that he
is in the right place. So if that is true,
(32:15):
that still goes back to that sense of loyalty protecting
the family name. We may think it, but we cannot
say it.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
That's not the only murder in the family. A seventeen
year old relative who wasn't initially named since they were
a minor, is convicted of an axe murder in twenty ten.
It seems that it's a nephew, Matthew Malatt, and he's
serving forty three years.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
They named him once, he was no longer a miner,
so they didn't name him for years, and then now
it's Matthew Malatt.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
He and a friend lured another friend into the same forest,
the state forest, and recorded themselves killing him with an
ax on his birthday, the victory birthday, Yeah, the victim's birthday.
Now he is said to have gloated about this and said,
you know me, you know my family, you know my
(33:08):
last name, Mallett. I did what they do very It
sounds like there's.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
A lot of.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Challenges in that family, and.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I might be reading too much into this. I can
see that, but When I first heard that their dad
said I have to kill him to Boris, it struck
me as odd. And now, look, I have joked about
things like that before, By god, you know I have,
but you know, and I don't know the contacts he
(33:47):
said it in, but it did struck me. It did
strike me as very odd that he would say, we
have to kill him. And we do know that Ivan
was not the only one who got in trouble as
a teenager. Hey, he did get in trouble with at
least two of his other brothers. Based on the history
that we could find, Does that mean that he acted alone?
(34:09):
Not necessarily either way. Now, to be clear, there is
no proof. No one has been charged. There is no
proof that anyone else helped him. But a lot of
people think it based on these things, based on Alex dropping,
these little hints, based on the two different guns that
even the police were like, this has to be more
(34:33):
than one person. Based on the fact that his items
were found at other people's houses.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Now, again, that does not mean they knew that.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
The stuff was in their house, but all those things
together makes a lot of people suspicious that there.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Was more going on.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
However, to be clear, there is no proof, there are
no charges, so put it that way.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
But it is a twist and turn story for sure.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
I had actually never heard of him until I started
researching movies based on true crimes. And he's a bad,
bad dude.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, I'm really interested in the New Zealand. You know what,
Could there any be any case linked to him in
New Zealand?
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, I think it's possible. And they seem too as well,
because some of those ones that they found, I mean
suspecting him in fifty eight. And let's assume you know
they're not all him, because again they don't have bodies
on all of them. But you've got Boris out there
saying there were twenty eight. That's mighty darn specific it is.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
But definitely go watch the YouTube. Tell us what you think.
Not much in the way of updates Patreon. You should
have your gifts soon. If you want to be a
Patreon go to patreon dot com slash Corpus Delicti. A
dollar gets you a bunch of free stuff, ads, ad
free episodes. Three dollars gets you into our discord page
(36:00):
with our channels, where we have multiple channels to talk
about movies, fitness books. I get all my book recommendations
from there, to be honest, and I share ours where
avid readers. Of course, we give Discord the fastest access
to all the information we have about Rocky. They're first
(36:22):
to know. And Rocky is moved to Saint Claire Correctional
YEP correction Institution, and so hopefully we'll be able to
talk to him soon, hopefully go see him. He's closer
to his family now, so it makes it a lot
easier for them, and he is officially off death row,
which we are super excited.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Well, and we'll try to get his updated mailing address
because now he's got a lot more time to sit
and look at pictures and postcards and letters. He has
so much more time now to enjoy those things. And y'all,
it was just so fricking close there, Like I mean,
we thought it was. I just can't even emphasize enough
(37:04):
how much we thought that. Unfortunately it was the end
and it's not. So he has all this time now
and we want to fill it with amazing, wonderful.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Happy things.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Jenna and I have some ideas brewing about some things
we've been thinking about for him and whatnot, So stay tuned.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
We'll get that to y'all. Also, we are.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Still working We mentioned a few episodes ago on the
Peyton Houston case. We are still working on that. We've
talked to her mother quite a bit and just kind
of figuring out how to structure all that. So that's
still going on in the background. But yeah, until then,
we're gonna keep trekking along with True Crime Theater too.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Until then, you know what they said to Felicia, Bye bye,
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