Robin "Rocky" Myers: Road to Redemption Ch. 5 - The Interviews

This may be the end of Rocky's series, but it is by no means the end of our passion for him and his case. In this final chapter, you'll hear directly from Kacey Keeton and Sara Romano, Rocky's current lawyer and investigator. You'll also hear from Rocky Myers himself.



*Note: Rocky's interview was conducted via prison phone. It can be hard to hear at times, but is absolutely worth hearing what he has to say about his life inside and outside of Holman Correctional Facility.



Please send letters for Rocky's clemency package to:

Corpus Delicti

PO Box 89

Chelsea, AL 35043

[e-mail]



To access earlier episodes of Corpus Delicti and to help support the show, please visit patreon.com/corpusdelicti



Our merch store can be found at teepublic.com/stores/corpus-delicti-podcast



Music by:

Kai Engel

"Daemones"

Blooper music by:

Art of Escapism

"Coal Miners"

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ or send a letter to Creative Commons, PO Box 1866, Mountain View, CA 94042, USA.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Hey everyone, it's Jen and this is Lindsay, and welcome
back to Corpus Delicti. This is the last and final
chapter of Road Tredemption, the interviews.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
So what we're going to do in this episode. You
are going to hear from Casey Keaton and Sarah Ramano,
which is Rocky's lawyer and investigator, and then you are
going to hear the interview with Rocky himself, which has
presented a few challenges. We've never spoken to someone in
prison before, so we actually had to get together because

(00:59):
you three way call, and so this is the first
time we've recorded in person since oh probably two years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
So if it sounds different, just bear with us.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
We're both vaccinated, by the way, Yes, yes we are.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Also apologies for last week. You probably noticed we did
not have an episode. If you are in our Facebook group,
you will have seen why were our zoom meeting actually
got hacked. I don't know if y'all have heard about
that happening on the news. Since COVID it's a thing,
and it happened to us hardcore like legitimately hacked. Tried

(01:40):
to kick the person out, didn't work because he was
just in there and he ruined the interview and.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
So we had to skip. So we apologize.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
But next week, do know that we are going to
bring you another new chapter series in Sweet Home, Alabama.
So right now we are going to kick it over
to our interview with Sarah and Casey and then stay
tuned after the break because then you'll be able to
hear Rocky. And before we do that, just a reminder,

(02:13):
we are doing the letter campaign. We have been getting
letters in the mail. We're super super excited about that.
We have the templates online if you need it, or
you can write your own. Some people have handwritten them,
some people have typed them. Whatever floats your boat is
fine with us. You can send them to PO Box

(02:34):
eighty nine, Chelsea, Alabama, three five four three, or you
can email it and we'll print it for you as
long as you can kind of get like an electronic
signature on there. If you want, you can email us
let us know you want a letter. We will print
it out self, address stamp, send it to you. That way,

(02:57):
all you have to do is sign it and send
it back to us. So that's an option too, but
we want to get as many.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Letters as possible.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
And one last and final thing. We do want to
thank our most recent Patreon supporters, Shannon, Caitlin, Erica and Amy.
Thank you guys so much for becoming Patreon supporters. You
should have already received all of your little goodies in
the mail. Don't forget everyone go to patreon dot com
slash Corpus Delicti for all those bonus episodes, videos and

(03:28):
behind the scenes. But we're gonna go ahead and end
it here so you guys can hear these interviews so
you will not hear our voices after that again, So
we hope you guys enjoy and thanks for sticking along
with us on the ride. Can you just introduce yourselves,
tell us your name, a little bit of background, how
you came into this case, and what you do on

(03:50):
this case today.

Speaker 4 (03:52):
My name is Kasey Keaton.

Speaker 5 (03:53):
I'm an attorney with the Federal Defender's Office in the
Middle District of Alabama. I work and what referred to
as the Capital Habeus Unit, which represents people who are
on death row in Alabama through their federal appeals process.

Speaker 6 (04:10):
Hi, I'm Sarah Romano. I am an investigator at the
Federal Defender's Office. My background is that I'm a clinical
social worker and I've worked on Rocky's case since it
came into our office.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
So our listeners have heard all about rocky story from
starting to finish, about this case and the situation that's
going on. And thank you so much for coming on
our show and being able to speak to us. We
really do appreciate it. One of the things that we
found interesting is the weapon. Now, did the killer have

(04:51):
the weapon on them upon arriving at the house or
was it something that they picked up inside the house or.

Speaker 5 (04:58):
Do we even know don't know honestly, because that you know,
obviously there were two people there besides the perpetrator in
this instance, you know, Missus Tucker and Missus Dutton. Missus
Dutton obviously never sees anything that actually happens in the
in the little entry way of the home other than

(05:18):
you know, she got cut because she gets back in
bed after she sees Missus Tucker going to the door,
and we don't really hear anything from Missus Tucker, you know,
during the altercation other than what Missus Dutton provides to us.
So you know, it's just as likely that it could
have been something sitting right by her door or you know,

(05:39):
by the doorway as it is for somebody to have
actually brought the weapon there.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
So I also to follow up question to that the
wound that she had on her left chest area, probably
assumably below the clasicle, the one that pierced her heart
and her lung, it seemed to be it was six
inches below her shoulder.

Speaker 7 (06:03):
It was. The wound was no more than an inch long.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
I think that was the consistent with all of them,
you know, and this is pure speculation on my site.

Speaker 7 (06:14):
You know, that almost sounds like a pocket.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
Knife to me.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
That is, they know what type of Are they sure
it was a knife or what kind or anything?

Speaker 5 (06:24):
Now there's no that you know, in either of the
people that they ever arrested for this, So there really
wasn't like an exploration of anything other than that it
was a sharp instrument, potentially an eye.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
And just to hit home on that point, when they
did talk to Rocky and they did narrow it in
on him as a suspect, they did not find a
weapon that matched those wounds inside his residence.

Speaker 5 (06:54):
And I will say, you know, one thing that I
think is the difference between kind of this habeas work
is our work is a look back and our ability
to kind of ascertain things is limited by a record
that in this case, you know, we're getting and trying
to compile things ten plus years after the fact.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
So, speaking of miss Dutton, this is one of the
biggest questions that I have. Did she ever say yes,
it was Rocky, Yes it was this person, and she's not.

Speaker 5 (07:27):
She is not the one who ever gave a physical
description of him. It was her sister, her sister, her cousin,
Missus Tucker, who did give a physical description three separate times.
But missus Missus Dutton did testify, but she never pointed
to Rocky, And in fact, in a later interview with

(07:52):
Missus Stutton with some post people working on his earlier
post conviction case, she actually mentions that she and her
cousin were on the front porch and saw the neighbor
mister you know Rocky, earlier that same day, and that

(08:12):
they waved at one another, and that her cousin told her,
you know, that's my neighbor, that he's come over here before.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
And so definitely they knew him, he knew her. It
is established they knew each other. Yes, that is the
biggest thing in this case to me is I've told
Jen this one hundred times. Miss Tucker is gasping for air.
She's been stabbed partially in the lung, they said. She's

(08:40):
struggling to get these words out. But she takes the
time to describe the attacker when she could have just
said Rocky.

Speaker 6 (08:48):
Right across the street.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
Why wouldn't you just do that? You know, that's the
main thing for me where I'm like, okay, it would.

Speaker 7 (08:54):
Have been less painful, less, you.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
Know, just questionable. Don't you want to catch them?

Speaker 4 (09:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (09:00):
I mean that, that to me just blows my mind.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
And so when her cousin is Danton, hears her answer
the door or is talking to this perpetrator, and the
perpetrator comes in, she never hears the word Rocky.

Speaker 5 (09:17):
The other side of that kind of again, that we
know that the person that came to that door told
the person that they needed to that they've been in
a car accident, that they needed to use the phone
to contact their family. I mean, why somebody would even
open the door when you know that that person supposedly
lives across the street.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
Like your family's. Why didn't you take you if it
was Rocky? Why didn't he just go to his house?
It makes zero sense.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
And if he was injured, he said he was bleeding.
Did they find blood on the sidewalk, the stoop or
inside the house from the perpetrator?

Speaker 5 (10:00):
They list nothing about that in the records.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
So do we think that there was actually an injury
that just kind of went wrong, or do we think
that it was just a first to get into the house.

Speaker 5 (10:16):
But I believe missus Tucker describes at one point that
there was that there was blood on the shirts.

Speaker 4 (10:23):
Right whoever was at the door.

Speaker 5 (10:25):
Had blood on their shirt, So we believe she at
least saw something that she believed to be blood.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
So if it was blood on the shirt, was anyone
Because we've got two people who end up being arrested
in this case, did either one of them have injuries?

Speaker 5 (10:43):
We know that Rocky did not once he was arrested,
but you know, I mean, I can acknowledge like he
wasn't arrested until over.

Speaker 4 (10:51):
A month later from the time of the crime.

Speaker 5 (10:55):
Mister Valentine, I'm gonna be honest, I don't recall saying
any mention of injuries listed in his arrest report.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Was there any evidence, any actual evidence Jen talked about
the blood. We know that there was that palm print
which did not match Rocky, and then there were some
footprints outside.

Speaker 5 (11:18):
Again, not that we can say in the record that
we have right okay, and not that anybody ever testified.

Speaker 6 (11:25):
To We do know one thing that was evidence, but
we were unable to get it at all because he
didn't have any ability to subpoena records once we got
the case. One of the things was like a phone call,
and so we don't We never got the records of

(11:48):
where the phone call went to.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
Oh the phone call from the house, from miss Tucker's house.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
Ah, that would be very telling.

Speaker 6 (11:56):
Right, But we tried to get them every which way
but loose. But he didn't have any rights to subpoena
any records, and so we were unable to get those.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
So we don't know anything about the footprints. We don't
know what size they were, anything like that, or.

Speaker 7 (12:12):
If they took pictures. Yeah, just a note on a policeman's.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
That seems like a very large oversight, So cool breeze.
When he is originally charged, he's charged with murder, Rocky
is charged with capital murder. What's the difference and why
might that be?

Speaker 4 (12:35):
The difference? Is the range of punishment available.

Speaker 5 (12:40):
Straight murder in the state of Alabama could carry up
to a potential life sentence, whereas capital can carry up
to a sentence of death. Well, really, ultimately only two
options for a capital murder offense is life without the
possibility of role or the death penalty. So that's the difference.

(13:00):
In terms of the reason for the charging difference, it's
up to you know, it's prosecutorial discretion. I think I
think there probably are a lot of things that play
into it that we know play into it. Somebody's you know,
social level can play into it. You know, there's a
big difference between the Valentine family and mister Myers within Decatur.

Speaker 4 (13:23):
Mister Myers lives on the wrong.

Speaker 5 (13:25):
Side of the tracks in an area you know that
is described by his own lawyer as the pit of Hell,
and mister Valentine lives in a nicer area with a
family who has an extended history in the Decatur area.

Speaker 4 (13:40):
Mister Myers has.

Speaker 5 (13:41):
Been indicator for a total of a year with no
real family connections. I think that there's definitely a probability
of that, and we see it play out even today
in choices made. You know, when people are charged, you
know that somebody who has a certain social status may

(14:04):
get the benefit of the daut and you don't see
it any charges until it's gone through a grand jury,
whereas you know people of a lower social standing, people
without money, or arrested descent as something happens. You know,
that's kind of just the unfortunate circumstance that we see
play out over and over again in the criminal justice

(14:26):
system is the haves and the have nots, and they
get a different level of justice.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
My favorite question on here and if you can't answer it,
that's okay. And this I will tell you this question
came from Tracy and I was like, this is a
great question. But again, if you can't answer it, that's fine.
In your professional opinion, did the police do their job correctly?
Was this case handled the way it should have been
as far as gathering evidence, preserving evidence?

Speaker 3 (14:52):
Was it a thorough investigation?

Speaker 5 (14:56):
I will say to answers to that question is what
we see in the record indicates that there were a
lot of dropped balls in this case, a lot of
things not followed up on, and a lot of things
not preserved in a proper way. Sadly, that's not that

(15:20):
different than a lot of cases that we have seen
over the time I've been with the Federal Defender's Office,
and there's a hundred reasons for that. It's not necessarily
all like bad police officers.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
Or anything like that.

Speaker 5 (15:31):
Sometimes that's the difference between funds and training. The other
part to that is we know, based on things that
we have been able to uncover, that there were things
that were done inappropriately in an intentional way. So I
think those two things are at play, is that there
were some dropped balls. We also believe that there were

(15:54):
some intentional malfeasance in this case.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Are you able to elaborate on that.

Speaker 5 (16:00):
Yeah, I'm glad to talk about that, and some of
the documents are again available online where we kind of
go through that. But I will also say, you know,
the defense investigator at the time of trial, who we've
met with, who we've talked with, who's and is a
former police officer from Decatur, had a lot of problems

(16:20):
with how this case was investigated and has talked at
great length with us about problems that he sought even
at the time.

Speaker 4 (16:30):
So that's you know, our answer is through.

Speaker 5 (16:32):
A window of a look back of a lot of
years and not a complete case file. But that's you know,
a person who was looking at it at the time,
who had a lot of problems in terms of things
that we know were intentionally done. From our conversations with
one of the witnesses at trial, Marcelle Ewing, we know
and we found record proof that he was arrested and

(16:55):
picked up for a robbery charge and when he was
brought in and he changed, you know, he testified or
well provided a statement implicating Rocky and he walked away
and was never charged with that car rivalry.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
So speaking of that, why did the police never obtain
a warrant for the crack house?

Speaker 5 (17:17):
That is a great question, that's right in and again
like that's that's crazy to me. How you would have
somebody bring you what is essentially becomes key evidence v
here using that term loosely, but this key evidence in

(17:39):
this murder case, and you let somebody bring it to
you in.

Speaker 4 (17:43):
The parking lot of the plan in a garbage bag.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
On that topic, do we know it's the same VCR?
Have they proven that? I mean, are we?

Speaker 4 (17:59):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (17:59):
We The serial number to that VCR that was located
matched the paperwork on and you know, this is what
nineteen ninety one, when bacrs were more expensive and people
actually took them to repair shops. A repair shop I
did receipt and it had the serial number on it,
which matched the one that was brought to the police.

Speaker 3 (18:22):
So we know it's the VCR.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
But I mean that the VCR seems like the crux
of the case, so to speak. That's what Rocky and
I guess Cool Breeze for that matter, what they both
were arrested on.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
But there's nothing. I don't know, it just seems like such.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
There's no prints on it, there's no According to Rocky,
it's in this alley where things are known to be dropped.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
And I mean, how is that enough?

Speaker 6 (18:53):
Well, some of the witnesses mentioned that actually when the
detectives came and talked to them, they said that Rocky's
fingerprints were actually on the VCR, which was not true.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
So they said that to the people. The police said
that to the people that they were talking to. Yes,
so planting an idea in their head.

Speaker 7 (19:15):
Yes, Why would they fabricate that?

Speaker 1 (19:19):
Was it a strategy move to manipulate witnesses?

Speaker 5 (19:23):
Well, that happens a lot backing, but to make people
feel comfortable that they're identifying the right person.

Speaker 7 (19:32):
It's a bait and switch.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, but then they're gonna say, oh, well, if I
don't say something, you know, they're saying Rocky did it,
so I better say that Rocky did it. You know
they've got prints on them. Oh my gosh. Okay, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
So once the police have Rocky they take them into interrogation.
Was it not recorded? And what are your thoughts about that?
You know, why wasn't it recorded? Because we're talking about
the nineties. Wasn't that prevalent during that time?

Speaker 8 (20:02):
No?

Speaker 5 (20:03):
No, and again, like even now, you know that it's
not necessarily traditional at all places to record not it's not.

Speaker 6 (20:12):
I don't think I have very few clients who have
any recorded interrogation.

Speaker 4 (20:20):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
I was under the impression, albeit thank you Dateline, that
all the interrogations are recorded. Can you ask, as someone
who is being brought in to be questioned by the police,
hey I want this recorded?

Speaker 7 (20:35):
Is it in your best interest?

Speaker 5 (20:38):
I never think it interesting. It's it's kind of a
weird place to be at, Like, you know, I mean,
my preference would be for anybody arrested to say I'm
not going to talk to you about a lawyer, right.

Speaker 4 (20:52):
The big thing.

Speaker 6 (20:52):
The first thing you need to do is say I
want an attorney right now.

Speaker 4 (20:56):
And never say another word.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
So okay, On that note, that's a good segue because
at one point there was some debate. It sounds like
maybe in one of Rocky's appeals or maybe you can
help me understand what was going on, but where they
talked about how he invoked the Fifth Amendment, but he
was still questioned is that what happened? Or there was
some question about his right to remain silent.

Speaker 5 (21:22):
Thinking that where you're referring to is he was actually
And one thing is that Rocky had had a prior
arrest for like stealing a radio out of a car.

Speaker 4 (21:34):
I think that was what it was.

Speaker 5 (21:37):
And so what they did was he was picked up
on a probation violation, that they were allowed to talk
to him as to that case, but if they went
beyond that, he could invoke his right to counsel. I
think that one of the original kind of issues and
arguments that was made at trial. And then I think

(21:59):
again in the direct feel was that it was you
know that they did this inappropriately, that he really had,
you know, this probation violation was to just get him
in there and try to bring a confession out of somebody.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
Okay, So Rocky is pined for this, He's taken in,
he's questioned, he goes through the jury's process. So let's
pause on the jury for just a little bit. The
makeup of the jury is being brought into question.

Speaker 7 (22:27):
Here. We have Decatur.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
It is a.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Stone throwaway from my hometown. So I grew up in Florence, Alabama,
which is literally the tri state area where you have
Musclesholls killing Decatur. And I've been to Dictator and knowing
the diversity there, I first hand had seen the diversity.
It seems very convenient for the prosecution, if you will,

(22:54):
that that jury was mostly whited, because that is not
the dominant population. And Decatur it is diverse, it's mixed,
it has a collection of heritages.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
On that same note, not only was it I believe,
eleven white jurors out of twelve, but that there were
some questions even during jury's selection about one of them.
Said they were asked, you know, if you had a
statement from a police officer and a witness, who would
you be more inclined to believe? And they said the
police officer flat out. I would believe the police officer

(23:29):
over the witness. And there were just lots of very
certain answers from the jury that you might think they
should probably strike them, but they didn't.

Speaker 4 (23:39):
Well, I think a couple of things.

Speaker 5 (23:41):
I think, you know, the jury diversity is not a
reflection of decaytur I think that's's great to have eleven
white people and one African American in a town where
I think white people at the time, I think their
numbers were around sixty percent. Why forty percent African American

(24:03):
or Hispanic somebody not identifying as white.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
So your jury should have looked a lot more like that.

Speaker 5 (24:10):
So you have this, you know, black man on trial
for the murder of a white woman, and he's looking
at eleven white people in that jury box and one
young black man.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Is that okay?

Speaker 2 (24:22):
So I was curious because everything says eleven out of twelve,
So I was curious about the twelfth. In the clemency
video that you guys created, one of the jurors is
in there and she mentions that a lot of people
came into the deliberation room, or forget the deliberation room,

(24:42):
they came into the court already having her mind made up,
what do you know kind of what she saw that
made her say that or what she heard that made
her say that.

Speaker 5 (24:55):
Well, we know from not just her, but from another
juror that we've spoken to that when they went into
deliberations that there were at least three that wanted to
vote not guilty, but from her and you know, from
the other juror. There was definitely a suggestion that by

(25:17):
comments et cetera, during smaller conversations, that there was a
feel that people already kind of presumed that, you know,
they were just there as a formality that whoever was
brought in was going to be guilty.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Well, you have a lot of people going in at
that time who really do trust that the police in
that area, there is a huge trust of police of
the military. You're talking about, you know, Huntsville, who is
has military bases and it's a Redstone arsenal. So there

(25:52):
is that deep rooted pride up in North Alabama specific
to this. And both my parents were military, and there
is a huge population and a huge community as it
comes to that.

Speaker 7 (26:06):
So when you.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Have that, you know, you're raised you trust the police.
They say it's green it's green. If they say the
light was red, you write your ticket and you pay,
you're fine. There's not much room for pushing back, if
you will, so I can completely see it where you're
going into this. And if the police say, you know,

(26:30):
who are you going to trust me or the witness?
A lot of people think that if they're sitting in
the defendant's chair, there's a reason why right there, Yes,
something happened.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
But what a lot of.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
People don't get is that people are wrongfully convicted so
much and so many times, and unfortunately it did happen
to Rocky, and now he's convicted.

Speaker 7 (26:57):
He's guilty. Now his previous lawyer, not you, Casey, but the.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Lawyer before, drops a ball the size of a hot
air balloon. I mean, let's just be honest here. You
know he from reading everything, it sounds like he.

Speaker 7 (27:13):
Just walked away.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, how is that not just an automatic redo?

Speaker 3 (27:19):
How is that?

Speaker 2 (27:19):
How can your attorney drop you, not inform you, gets
in trouble for it, gets reprimanded for it. But they're like, oh, sorry, Rocky,
how does how is that not an automatic redo?

Speaker 3 (27:33):
The whole thing is it?

Speaker 7 (27:34):
Because that he's in charge of his own defense, and.

Speaker 5 (27:37):
Even now this is still true, you do not have
right to counsel past your direct appeals.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
What okay, so I'm on death row, I have no
right to counsel after that last appeal, But I don't
feel like I got my last appeal because he dropped it.

Speaker 5 (28:04):
Well, and this is kind of a this probably goes
way further down a rabbit trail, but essentially, there are
nine court opportunities for somebody convicted really of any offense.
You know, if you're of a felony, you have nine
areas that you can go through. You have your trial
and your direct appeal, and that goes circuit in Alabama,

(28:26):
goes circuit court to the Alabama Court of Criminal Appeals,
to the Alabama Supreme Court, and to the Supreme Court.
That's kind of your line of appeals. But when you
do that kind of appeal.

Speaker 4 (28:38):
It's a record based appeal, so it has whatever.

Speaker 5 (28:41):
You're arguing about that went wrong, the courts have to
be able to see it on the record, and so
then you have a right to what's called in Alabama,
it's called a rule thirty two post conviction proceeding, and
that's your opportunity to.

Speaker 4 (28:57):
Go outside the record.

Speaker 5 (28:58):
So if you learn learn that adjuror was having sex
with one of the witnesses, that would be your post,
that would be your opportunity to raise it.

Speaker 4 (29:07):
And so once you.

Speaker 5 (29:09):
Start that level, which is bizarrely, you go back to
the same circuit court that convicted you, so you can
make it that same court.

Speaker 7 (29:17):
Do you get the same judge?

Speaker 5 (29:19):
Yes, if that judge is still there, you're going to
have that same judge. But you don't have a right
to counsel once you're there. So, once you've gone through
that direct appeal, which is record based kind of bizarrely,
once you have the opportunity to actually do investigation outside
of the record, you lose the ability to point it

(29:41):
to you.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
When did his lawyer walk away? At what point in
that process?

Speaker 5 (29:49):
In the well he left kind of anything during the
appeal from that rule thirty two here, Well, he didn't
get a hearing.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
So when he was no longer obligated to be counseled?

Speaker 4 (30:01):
Correct?

Speaker 3 (30:02):
Wow?

Speaker 5 (30:03):
Okay, Well, I would say when when Rocky no longer
had right to counsel, mister Schwartz was obligated and had
made them had agreed and accepted to represent mister Myers
and in fact the letter in which he you know,
kind of cemented his agreement without with the American Bar

(30:25):
Association's definitely project agreed. I'm going I'm going to take
mister Myers case and I will represent him from his
Rule thirty two hearing until.

Speaker 4 (30:35):
He is out of court through his federal appeals. Okay.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
And that's where the whole I don't know if it's
the right term, but where the whole reprimand came in
because I know he did get I guess a slap
on the wrist for it.

Speaker 5 (30:49):
Yes, it was a public reprimand. So he it showed
up in the you know, the Tennessee Bar Journal. So
and so got a public reprimand. And that's it.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
The other big thing that happens in the trial in
the court is the jury comes back says he's he's guilty,
but we're recommending life. Judge comes in and overrides that.
That is now illegal.

Speaker 7 (31:16):
Right here, It is now illegal.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
So how could it not be retroactive and why is
that a specific?

Speaker 5 (31:27):
Originally when they passed the law doing away with judicial override,
there was a discussion about whether or not to make
it retroactive, and there was a push by some of
the people in the legislature to not make it retroactive
because there was a concern about how much it might cost,

(31:47):
so that there the financial cost potentially, which is kind
of a legal fiction, and in my opinion, because ultimately,
if they have just decided that it was retroactive, and
anybody who got a death sentence because of the judicial
override is now simply sentenced to life without the possibility

(32:10):
of parole, there would have been no cost. You would
not have had to have no sentencing hearings. You could
have just given everybody what the jury believed they should.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
Right now, we say we want KIV to come in.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
I believe you had said.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
And I'm going to take a stab at who I
think this is that only one other person has had
their sentence commuted.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yes, was it Judith Neely?

Speaker 4 (32:38):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (32:40):
Okay, So here's where things get here. We've covered Judith
Neely in depth twice.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
Actually do it?

Speaker 1 (32:50):
And for someone to put draino and liquid plumber in
a little girl to get commuted, to get to spend
the rest of her life life with a balcony or
a patio connected to her little jail cell, how is
that even comfortable. Surely okay, but but surely that means

(33:11):
there's hope, right.

Speaker 4 (33:13):
Well, right, always hope.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
It's Judith Neely.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
I mean, she admitted to all this, and there was
evidence and there were people like.

Speaker 7 (33:25):
How was without a doubt on hers?

Speaker 1 (33:28):
But with his we don't have any full evidence. There
is no evidence and reason.

Speaker 6 (33:33):
That the governor commuted her sentence was it was his
last day in the office and he commuted it. Right,
I'm sure you know this, because we shouldn't be killing
women in Alabama.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
We shouldn't be killing innocent people either.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
Amen's sister, Amen's sister.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
So we get very like when we made that connection,
because I was like, it says here that it was
on the governor's last day in office and it was
a woman.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
I was like, that's Judith freaking Neely.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
And yet we have this innocent man who is super nice,
super sweet.

Speaker 7 (34:09):
I mean, he's he's innocent from the get go.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
There's and the more you hear his story and the
more you live it when you listen to it and
all the details that Lindsay and I have gone through
on this, it's really hard to believe without a shadow
of a doubt and That's why we definitely have our
Facebook group open. If you guys believe differently, please please,
you know, let's start that conversation. But you know what

(34:36):
happens now. So what you know, we have the ACLU petition.

Speaker 5 (34:44):
Well right now we're continuing and there's right now we're
continuing to let that grow, you know, as much as
we can because because we don't have an execution date.

Speaker 4 (34:56):
What and I don't know how familiar you are.

Speaker 5 (35:00):
In twenty eighteen, you know, Alabama passed the law changing
or at least allowing as an option nitrogen hypoxia as
your method of execution instead of lethal injection.

Speaker 4 (35:13):
And so Rocky is one of the.

Speaker 5 (35:15):
People who elected that if I'm executed, I would rather
it be nitrogen hypoxia. So currently Alabama does not have
a protocol to execute people using nitrogen hypoxia. So any
of those people that made that election, they really can't
move for an execution date right.

Speaker 7 (35:34):
Now, which is strategic on their end.

Speaker 5 (35:37):
Yeah, Ultimately, once that happens, once they have a protocol
to execute people that way, then the process that happens
is the Attorney General's office asks the Alabama Supreme Court
to set a date maybe litigation back and forth, and
then if they set it from whenever the order comes

(35:59):
down from the album I'm a spring court.

Speaker 4 (36:01):
It has to be at least thirty days out.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
And so if he elected that do they have to
stick to it.

Speaker 7 (36:07):
That was his election.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
They can't try to force them into whatever other method As.

Speaker 4 (36:13):
Of right now, that would have to be the case.

Speaker 8 (36:16):
Now.

Speaker 5 (36:16):
The difference would be if the statutes changed, I mean
there would be additional litigation about that.

Speaker 4 (36:23):
I mean there just would be.

Speaker 7 (36:25):
So right now.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Is there a timeline to have those procedures done?

Speaker 7 (36:30):
Is there?

Speaker 1 (36:32):
Nope, it's just it's sitting lame duck somewhere in Congress
or in the House.

Speaker 6 (36:37):
No, it's the doc has to figure it out, like
it's on them to figure out how to use the
new protocol they expected to follow. Oklahoma was doing that too,
but Oklahoma hasn't figured it out yet, and I think
they've given up on it.

Speaker 5 (36:56):
Is that right, Casey, there's definitely been like kind of
a push to go backwards a little bit in Oklahoma
and moving away.

Speaker 4 (37:06):
You know.

Speaker 5 (37:06):
I think there's a few problems with the idea of
nitrogen hypoxia.

Speaker 4 (37:11):
I think, what is it? I don't. Yeah, it's a
gas chamber essentially.

Speaker 5 (37:15):
Okay, so it's you know, stealing all of somebody's air.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
Oh wow, Okay, So.

Speaker 5 (37:25):
I think there's kind of a cringe factor, sure that
some places kind of deal with in terms of that,
but also like managing that in terms of how that
could even be accomplished, right, is what some people in
Oklahoma that have been dealing with the protocol and trying

(37:46):
to put one together have have indicated that they've had
a real difficulty finding figuring out how you could even
implement that safely. And by safely, that means like everybody
else involved.

Speaker 4 (37:57):
As opposed to obviously the person they're trying to.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Hell, So let's really hope Oklahoma stumbles their feet on this.

Speaker 7 (38:06):
That's at least for a Rockie's sake.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yeah, that they can't figure it out. Can Kate I
be completely just pardon him?

Speaker 4 (38:14):
No?

Speaker 3 (38:15):
No.

Speaker 4 (38:16):
And that's actually the Judith and Neely law.

Speaker 5 (38:20):
That came out because you know, when she was granted clemency,
there wasn't a clear process and so she has life
with the possibility of parole, and the legislature was like,
can't have this again, So they passed the judithan Neely law, she's.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Still messing everybody up.

Speaker 5 (38:37):
If the governor grants clemency, all that they can give
is life without the possibility of parole.

Speaker 7 (38:44):
Okay, so.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
Full full disclosure, that is the best he.

Speaker 4 (38:50):
Can get right now at this point.

Speaker 8 (38:53):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Okay, So what would it take to get him out
of the pre for somebody to say there's so much
wrong here?

Speaker 3 (39:03):
I mean, is he would have to happen.

Speaker 6 (39:06):
The laws would have to be changed, because he has
not been able to have any of his any of
a hearing on any of the merits of his case.
Because when Earl Schwartz dropped his case, he's time barred
from bringing things into court.

Speaker 5 (39:26):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
So there is zero hope without a law being changed
for him to be able to walk out of that present.

Speaker 7 (39:34):
The best thing that we could do is hope for.

Speaker 3 (39:37):
A life in present at this point without parole.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
Wow, Okay, I get it.

Speaker 7 (39:44):
In the Judith's case, I get that.

Speaker 3 (39:47):
Yeah, but you've got to have some allowance for I
mean stuff like this, you know.

Speaker 5 (39:52):
Well, but keeping in mind, Judith has an opportunity to
get out.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Some well exactly well, because we wrote letters, we had
our listeners, right, let to China, we really please don't
let this woman out. You know, she's already had her mercy,
she's already received mercy. Oh my gosh, that's maddening. That's
absolutely maddening. So in order to get Kivy to say, okay, fine,

(40:17):
life it is, what do you think, what do you
think is needed?

Speaker 3 (40:20):
What do you think has to happen? What can we do?

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Knowing that there are thousands of people listening to this
right now, what can we do?

Speaker 5 (40:29):
I think that govinor Ivy has very clearly indicated in
in prior situations where she's been asked to grant clemency
kind of her response has been that the people of
Alabama want, you know, let me rewind. I think there's
a couple of responses that she has made. One she

(40:51):
has finally said before like, you know what, I'm just
following what the jury wanted.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
Well are you because.

Speaker 5 (40:59):
Here exactly like here's not true. The jury wanted life
without the possibility of parole. And so in other cases
where it has been a judicial override, you've also seen
governors of Alabama say, well, you know, this is the
people of Alabama want, you know, the death penalty and
the people of Alabama believe this is justice, and Governor

(41:23):
Ivy has actually specifically reflected that when she has gotten
requests for clemency and petitions, et cetera, that they've been
from people in other places, like people from Europe or whatever,
that it's not the people of Alabama speaking. That's the

(41:43):
thing that I would love more than anything to figure
out and tap in to the people of Alabama.

Speaker 4 (41:52):
Okay, Yeah, we are always glad.

Speaker 5 (41:55):
And you know that's one thing that Sarah and I
have talked in different places across the country about Rocky's case.
I'm always willing to talk about his case. I think
one thing that happens sometimes for us on the news
side is they're looking for like a hook of something

(42:16):
that's happening now, like.

Speaker 4 (42:17):
That's going to happen in X time.

Speaker 5 (42:20):
You know, we the last time we probably got bigger
news coverage outside you know, the nation did the article,
but we have one here. The Montgomery Advertiser did a
big spread on it, but it was really geared towards
like a whole thing that we put on which we
did a viewing of our clemency video at a local

(42:43):
theater and then had like a panel of faith leaders
talking about the role of faith leaders in regard to
the criminal justice system.

Speaker 4 (42:53):
Two things.

Speaker 5 (42:54):
One is I think like the hard thing for us
has been to kind of tie into people like that
and show them a reason to talk about the case
and they also, you know, kind of want something specifically
to do. And that's hard for us right now because
we're in the position of we haven't asked for clemency yet,
because we are kind of continuing to try to grow

(43:16):
that base and you know, that population of people that
are supportive of it, and putting together the best clemency
package that we can, you know, which includes video, which
includes letters that we've tried together from people for you know,
for a few years now, because we did have a
prior date that kind of spurred a lot of fast

(43:37):
collection of items.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Well, we are more than happy to support the cause
and to support Rocky in this. And I do have
some of the final questions because I think we've gone
through all of ours and listenions, so you have okay,
I'm good, Yeah, okay, So my question is the same
to Casey as it will be to Sarah. But Sarah,

(44:00):
of you first working on this case and knowing Rocky
meeting Rocky talking to him.

Speaker 7 (44:07):
You know, what does all this mean to you?

Speaker 6 (44:10):
So, actually, what it means to me is that because
Rocky was one of the first cases that I worked on,
and what matters to me is that I want Rocky
to know and his family to know that he matters

(44:31):
and we are going to fight for him all the
way through this because I do believe it's an injustice obviously,
because I mean I believe that he didn't commit the crime,
and he was also screwed by the system, you know,
like number one, that it was a jury override. Number

(44:53):
two that his attorney dropped his case, you know, And
because of my background as a clinical social worker, I
one hundred percent believe that Rocky is intellectually disabled, you know,
and early on in my career, because like I said,
this was one of the first cases I worked on,

(45:13):
and when we found documents in New Jersey that showed
that he was ID, I was new to this work
and I was like, oh, And we celebrated with one
of the attorneys that was on the case back then,
and with two people who helped us find those documents.

(45:34):
We were like jumping up and down crying because we
were like oh, we've got these documents so he won't
be executed. And what I know now is that unfortunately
the law doesn't quite work that way, you know. But
here's what I do want to say, because I want
you to know that Rocky is an amazing man. I

(45:59):
love Rocky, love his family because I've worked with them
for so long. When Casey and I wanted to do
a clemency requests to the governor, Rocky was like, no,
I'm not begging anybody for my life. And I said,
and so Casey and I are like, Okay, well you

(46:19):
don't have to beg for your life because we're going
to do it for you. And then we also said, Rocky,
you have a lot of issues in your case that
could potentially help others, you know, in the you know,
coming forward. And he said, well, since you're going to beg,
I'll let you guys beg. But it's more important to

(46:40):
me to make a difference in this system for people
like me. And again, like I said, he's just a
really nice and sweet guy, and I want you guys
to know that about him. For me, I think in
order for us to change the system, we have to
bring the person to the table so that people can see,

(47:04):
you know, why this is unjust and why we need
to change the criminal justice system.

Speaker 7 (47:11):
Casey, same question, What does this case mean to you?

Speaker 4 (47:15):
Yeah? I think the thing that.

Speaker 5 (47:19):
Stands out about Rocky's case in some ways, it's who
Rocky is as a person. He is somebody who even
on his bad days and he has those in prison
where he gets down and sad and frustrated, even on

(47:41):
those days, like he.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
Is still comment and.

Speaker 5 (47:51):
Caring about other people and what's going on with them.
You know, he with his church group at home and
you know, every he continues to do and he loves.

Speaker 4 (48:05):
To sing and he enjoys that.

Speaker 5 (48:09):
But it's also about like help and take care of
those other people that are his brothers. So, you know,
who he is is so important and it's a standout.
But also the fact that in Rocky's case there are
so many things that went wrong. We see racism not

(48:30):
just in the jury selection and the people that sat
on that jury that we Sarah and I talked to,
but we see it in who his defense council was,
things that his defense council said at that trial where
he pointed to his own client and said, you know,
other you know, these are other people that live. You know,
I don't even want to talk to you jury. I

(48:52):
feel like I'm going to have to spray the whole
room down with lightsol once you see some of these
people that come in, like that's his that the person
who's supposed to be standing up for him, who's talking
about like the only people that live in this area
are drug addicts and prostitutes, you know, not like you
good white people in that jury. You So we've got

(49:14):
the race issues, we've got the judicial override, we have
what I believe is some police now fees its and
just kind of police work. And then you know, we
have this intellectual disability, like a person who is cognitively
impaired going through a system.

Speaker 4 (49:34):
And for the reasons we.

Speaker 5 (49:36):
Know from case law and experience why that's a horrible
thing and why there's you know, problems with that. But
the thing is that all those things did happen in
Rocky's case, but they happen a lot more than we
want to think about. And I think what Sarah said
that the ability to talk about Rocky's case, to hear it,

(49:59):
to let people have some kind of visceral experience of
that is important because I think that's the only way
people that don't have regular interactions with the criminal justice
system can ever really understand that there are parts of
it that are just broken.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Well, Casey, Sarah, thank you so much for talking with us.
Casey and Sarah themselves, you know, advocates, and they were
in the trenches and still are in the trenches with Rocky,
and we just want to extend our you know, biggest
thanks and that you are able to join us tonight

(50:39):
and talk with us.

Speaker 7 (50:40):
We really appreciate it.

Speaker 8 (50:46):
An enunciated individual at Alabama Department of Corrections, you may
start the conversation.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Now, Hello, pretty good, how are you?

Speaker 8 (51:00):
Weren't pretty good?

Speaker 4 (51:02):
You know?

Speaker 8 (51:03):
I had church today and everything. I had a bad day,
a couple of days, bad couple of days, and but
it did be good to go to church to day.
That's like a lot of times when I'm in here
and I'm you know a lot of times, you know,
you be feeling sorry for yourself and all in your feelings.
I ever, folks want to say, you know, and I
go through that in here. A lot of people, a

(51:25):
lot of people don't believe that just because you in prison,
especially on f row you know, they they figured that you,
you know, you tough or whatever. No, I get sad too.
I feel sorry, come mysell to. You know, I get
a little depressed too, you know, and stuff like that.

(51:45):
But today we went outside to go to church and
stuff because they don't let the preachers and stuff in
no more since COVID. So we all got to go outside.
And then sometimes we all have church inside, you know,
like when it's raining or something side or something. You know,
it's real foggy and the time just expires. So they said,

(52:06):
y'all will have it inside, you know. So and then
we have our own church where we got our own
church here, you know, where it's just us the brothers
on we call Life Row instead of Death Row. We
call it Life Row, and we go out there and
have service. But I'm just I'm sorry for around. When
I got outside today, you know, when I got around

(52:28):
my church brothers and stuff, it was like everything that
I was burdening with just washed away. I was out
there dancing because you know, they we do what we
call a praise and worship service, and the people was
out there playing the guitar and stuff, and we were singing,
and I just go to dance like an Indian, you know,

(52:49):
stomping our feet bad and my old hat off my
head and everything. But it felt good and I and
and I feel better, you know, I feel pretty good
today so far as in a pretty good day. You know.
I was talking to Tracy fairly in chief that our dad,
you know, if they trying to get him in the
hospital because he speak and stuff. So that brought me

(53:11):
down a little page and stuff, you know, but all
in all, you know, it's been a pretty good day
so far.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Well good, Well, hopefully this will help make it even
brighter because we want people to hear from you.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
You know, we've talked to you.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
A bit through through this and said that we know
the story. We have case documents, but you know, who
is Rocky and this whole thing is a real person,
a real family, a real man, and that's you know.

Speaker 3 (53:45):
Hopefully from hearing from you today, we will be able
to let.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
People know, you know, even more about the story that
you can't get from from court documents, just you know,
you and and your life.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
I'll let Jim off with the first question.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
Hey, Racky, So the first question we wanted to ask
you was how did you get that nickname Rocky.

Speaker 8 (54:11):
Oh my mom gave me to what No, no, no, no, no,
she didn't give it to me, but she told me
a while back that because I asked her, I said, Mama,
why y'all named me Rocky? I know we didn't name that,
you know, that's that's just a nickname. And and and
she said that I was hard headed when I was
a baby. You know, I was always putting stuff in

(54:34):
my mouth and and doing things. And they topped me
on my hand, and I'll go right back and do
it again. So she said, my dad friends used to
call me rockhead, you know, like you got to a
hard head, rockhead boy. And Mommy didn't like that. And
you know what I'm saying, like stop calling my boy
my son rockhead. So they swifted it from rockhead to Rocky.

(54:56):
And so that's how I got that name, you know.
And I rolled up with it. And at one point
I didn't think anyone knew my name, my real name.
You know, my aunt Laurie. She asked me, can I
send you some money? I was in the county jail then,
and she told her, yeah, I said, Aunt, Lorde, do
you know my names? Like, yeah, I know your name

(55:18):
or what is it? She said, Robin. I said, oh, okay, cool.
But no one calls me that. My grandparents, my siblings know.
My dad used to call me a name that it
never really stuck. He used to call me Benny. And
I don't know where that comes from. I don't understand
that at all, Benny and.

Speaker 6 (55:40):
So, but.

Speaker 8 (55:42):
That's my name, all right.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
So what was your life like growing up as a kid?
And I know you you came from a big family,
So tell us a little bit about how.

Speaker 4 (55:53):
You grew up as a child.

Speaker 8 (55:57):
I really can't remember much. I know, I remember that
me growing up in my days is different than when
the kids growing up these days, you know, because I
remember we used to go outside and catch bugs and
and build a little club houses out of abandoned buildings,

(56:18):
doors and stuff like that, you know. And back in
those days, your parents would take you, take your a outside,
get out of the house, move and we can go
out and play and run around and come back when
it gets dark up when the lights cut on. And
kids can't do that nowadays, you know, it's so so
scary out there, and and and a lot of kids

(56:40):
they just sit around in the house and play games
or stuff, and we didn't do that, you know, we
but you know that was just uh, just a real childhood.
But I growed up, you know, in a in a
rough neighborhood and let's call it ghetto, you know, or
whatever that is, you know, poor neighborhoods or whatever. I
grew up in that type of environment with the alcohol

(57:03):
and the bombs and all them people like that there.
I grew up around there, and so I kind of
gravitated to that as I got older. You know, it's
always just you do what you know. My grandmama said
at one time, you know, when my sister Christine wanted
to move from New Jersey to Tacoma, Washington with her
husband in the military. He's moving on the military basis,

(57:25):
and my grandma said, to keep your ass where it's known,
you know. So and I've always been in that kind
of way, you know, always liked to stay around home
and just dealt with what I knew. I didn't know
anything else, but you know, living in New Jersey. And
when I moved from Yark, I moved the Orange and
that was better, you know, that was kind of like

(57:47):
blue collar orange New Jersey. But I still had that
mentality of you know, a tough kid for Nork in Jersey,
and so I fought a lot with my hands and
stuff like that there. You know, back in them days,
we didn't use weapons. We used to stick or something
like that. But you just ran, just get out of dodge,

(58:08):
you know. So and then growing up with my siblings
and stuff like that, you know, was more of a
you know, family orient and things. You know, like my
big brother who used to used to play church where
we set up the kitchen chairs and stuff around the
house and put something up there where he's like the
preacher and stuff and we sit in there and think

(58:30):
like we have in church, and he'll record us singing
and all that good stuff. You know, just family stuff
and you know, hanging out with my brothers and my dad.
You know, I'm an oldiest person when it comes to music,
you know, because my dad put that stuff in me
Isaac Kay's and all that kind of stuff. You know.

(58:52):
So I don't know, you know, it's just just normal
for me. I just got kind of grew up normal.
You know, a lot of things that people talk and
a lot of things when I was young and stuff
like that about me not having a good education and
not being able to do certain things. I didn't realize that.

(59:16):
To be honest with you, I didn't know it, you know.
And I first I was like, I told my fellow,
I said, for real, y'all. I was like that, for real,
you know, and they were like, yell. I was like,
oh my god, I didn't even realize. You know that
I knew I was. I had a problem with learning
and stuff. That's why I hate kay school. You know.

(59:36):
I can't stand school because it's embarrassing, you know, to
be sitting there and everybody's getting it You're not. You know,
a short story. I know I've been rambling, and I'm sorry,
But one of the reasons why I dropped out of
school is because I was at the beginning of school,
you know, after the school year started up, I had

(59:58):
to go to the Blackboy and do a longer vision
problem and math. I can't do math at all. I
can't mathew. I got still count on my fingers. I
still put learns on the paper like one, two, three,
four or five, six and so on and so on, and
then strike them off and then act then count what
I got left. All that kind of stuff. I can't
do math. But my teacher called me up to the

(01:00:19):
black boy to do a long division problem and I
couldn't do it. And while I was standing up there
trying to solve the problem, and my classmates just give
me the answers behind me. But I didn't know what
the hell they were talking about.

Speaker 4 (01:00:34):
It.

Speaker 8 (01:00:34):
I knew right then and there, I said, when I
get out of this class, i'mout coming back. And I
just started playing hooking from school, you know, and I
started liking it. So then I started cutting other classes. Actually,
you know, I wasn't going up to the school but
just to but nothing, you know, just going up there
to hang out and stuff like that, to run for

(01:00:55):
maturing office. But you know, so I really don't remember
a lot of that, you know, me not knowing this
to me not knowing that. I know, I don't know
a lot. I'm not a grave, you know. Uh, people's intelligy,
you know, people like no, you ain't, you ain't. Just

(01:01:15):
really that I know, sure make me feel good.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
We know that your life dramatically changed when you received
your your death row sentence, But what other ways have
you been able to keep your life quote unquote normal
for you? And what are some of the struggles that
you have.

Speaker 8 (01:01:38):
My life changed just by being incarcerated. You know, that's
a that's a life changing thing like that in itself,
you know. And and I missed my family, you know.
And my family. My brother told me one time, he said,
everybody that raised us dead, you know, all my uncles,

(01:02:00):
my parents, my grandparents, friends, whoever used to just whooped
you because you did something wrong in the streets. You know,
all everybody fig you so and and you know, I
have grandkids that I don't know, you know. And I
told I was telling my nurse Beece one time, It's

(01:02:20):
like I got I got a I got a son.
He's about to get married, and I'm going to be
a great grandma and all this stuff. And I'm like, man,
I don't even know my family, you know, all these
kids and stuff like that. You know, I don't even
know them. So that's a huge change and a lot
of you know, I haven't never changed, like with my

(01:02:41):
religion or nothing like that, because I was raised in
the church.

Speaker 6 (01:02:45):
You know.

Speaker 8 (01:02:45):
My mom My grandfather was a preacher. He married all
of us, Bishard Moses Smith from New Jersey. He married us,
and Mommy and them kept us in church. And then
I'm married a church girl, you know, when I got
every somebody ex wife she she uh, she's a church girl.

(01:03:06):
You know. You know that's that's just that's just a
question right there that you know, it's just obvious. You know,
my my life has changed dramatically, you know. But then again,
you know, it was a lot of things on the
streets and stuff that I should have changed, you know,
when I was out there. You know, I tell people
all the time, like I try to tell my son,

(01:03:27):
work work, and work harder than that. When you get
off work and you can't go to another job, you know,
and when you get time off being you spend it
with your wife and your kids and stuff. Then the
next day go back to work. And here, you know.
So I wish I would have done that more. And
I wish I could do that. Now.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
You've told us before that there are some ways that
your life has changed that you didn't expect and that
are actually I guess you would say in a situation
like this positive, if it could be positive, that tell
us about that.

Speaker 8 (01:04:02):
I think that, you know, I had to grow up.
You know, It's like my brother tells me one time, Man,
I don't know I don't see how you do it.
You've been locked up there a long time. I ain't
no where I could do it. I'll be in there
using all kinds of drugs and I'll try to stay high.
Well I don't have to deal with it and all
that type of stuff. And it's just like, you know,
I tell people, I really don't have no choice. I

(01:04:25):
have to do this, you know, and I have to
stay strong and and and yeah, and I was talking
about that earlier.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
You know.

Speaker 8 (01:04:34):
People, you know, they think that just because you're in prison,
that you got to be strong and you're on death
row and you tough and all that. And I get
in my feelings too, you know, I feel I get
I get depressing here, I get sad, you know, and
I feel lonely all that good stuff, you know, And

(01:04:55):
I just got to deal with it. I gotta, what
they say, man up. It just you know, live the
fight that of the day and hopefully, and I appreciate
a lot of people like you guys, and and my family,
you know, my son and me Andrew either, I mean,
that's my rock right there where. Sometimes he has to
school me, you know, because sometimes I at one time

(01:05:17):
I called him and I was so upset because, you know,
people in my family that's doing drugs and stuff like
that there and they're not doing well with their life.
And I kind of think, you know, maybe that's my fault,
you know, because I used to do drugs and stuff
and I'm not out there and what havn't been out
there and stuff? When he was like that, the things

(01:05:38):
we do is not your fault, you know. I'm grown,
they're grown. They made a decision to do this and
do that, and I made a decision to do this
and do that. You know. Sometimes he has to school me,
you know, and to lift my spirits up and to
make me feel good or make him feel better. Let's say,
I just can't. You know. I've seen people in here

(01:05:59):
comes suicide, you know, and I've seen people in here
just just so sad, crying all the time, and I
can't do it. You know, I have. I have done that.
I've played in this big you know, because I've made
myself by myself, you know, and no one's in here
where no one can see me, and stuff like that.

(01:06:20):
And I cried, you know, just at nighttime when I
praised stuff and I just break down and start crying
and boohooing, and and you know, because prison ain't for
no one. I tell people all the time, this is
not the spot. Prison ain't the spot, you know. So

(01:06:41):
I try to tell people all the time straighten up.
You know. That's one of the reasons I started that.
When I was in the county jail, I kind of
like seeing the little kids coming in and they was young,
even though I was younger. Now I'm almost sixty years old,
but you know, and I've seen him and I tell them, man,
y'all stopped doing this and stopping My first fight town
to jail is because I was trying to get a

(01:07:02):
guy to stop selling We stopped selling drugs. And then
another guy came in and talk like, yah, man, you
gotta make your money. You got to do that and
just make your money, na. And I was on one side.
I guess they said that they were on one side
and the angel on the other side, you know. And
that was my first fight in county jail because of that,

(01:07:24):
you know, because I try to tell people and try
to help them, this is not the spot. You know.
I learned my lesson. I had a good wife out there,
you know. She gave me beautiful children and everything. And
just because I had a disability and stuff like that.
There I didn't have to do drugs, so I could
have thought hard and stuff like that, you know, to

(01:07:45):
make things better, you know, as much as I can.
So I take the blame for that too.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
Can you describe for us a typical day on death Row?

Speaker 8 (01:07:56):
Oh? Oh my god. Well that is hard, not hard
to explain, but I'm just saying, it's just hard to
live like this because I'm in a small I don't
know what size this cell is, but it's not regulation size.
That's one of the reasons why this building is condemned

(01:08:17):
and they're gonna move us because the prisons that they
build now, they these the cells are way bigger than me.
I can stand up and just touch the walls with
my arms, and and you're in here twenty four hours,
you know, and twenty three hours, and sometimes a lot
of times, most of the time, we don't even go

(01:08:38):
outside because they don't have the officers here, or maybe
the weather's messed up. And then you're eating sloped garbage
food and it's sometimes it's loud and noisy here, and
then summertime it's unbearably hot, so it's horrible. I mean,
it ain't. I used to think when I was out

(01:09:00):
that people got the air condition into us. They no
air conditioning here. You know, it's none at all. And
it's hard. You know, some of these guys on drugs
and stuff and they go to screaming and stuff at nighttime,
they tripping out or whatever. You know, it's not easy
at all. Typical day on death Row is it's not

(01:09:25):
easy at all, you know. But I told I was
talking to an officer to day. You know, we were
talking about some of these guys that I had to
just always stay in trouble and I don't want to
live like that, you know, because you can.

Speaker 6 (01:09:38):
You can.

Speaker 8 (01:09:38):
You can live really really rough here to the police
would you know, treat you real bad here and stuff
like that. I get respect from the offices. You know,
we talk, we laugh. You know, in East are the
guys that they'll walk me around the corner and kill me,
you know, execute me. These are the same guys on

(01:09:59):
the ex accus and King. You know, sometimes we act
like friends. You know, we talk to lab and we
talk about the family. You know. I had a female
officer work here a long time ago. Me and her
was like best friends. And that's how she treated me.
She treated me like a friend. You know. She had
come in and let me turn you with you so

(01:10:21):
much old daughter of mine dead, you know, and a
lot of other people didn't. They didn't like that because
some of the officers, they'd be like, you ain't telling
me your business, and I'm like, really, man, that's not
really her business. It ain't private. It's just a conversation
and stuff like that, you know, So it can be
rough here, and then I try to make it just

(01:10:42):
as easy as I can because I don't want no
trouble and I've never been that type of person, you know,
just to be like a big mouth, always starting trouble,
picking on people, and I don't care nothing about authority
and stuff like that there is and I've never been
and that type of person, and that I would be faking.
You know, you have to pull that out of me,

(01:11:04):
you know, you really have to do something to me
to make me want to, you know, act the food
and it's not worth it. You know, My life here
is hard enough. You know. It is, like I just said,
I just had a couple of days where I was
just in my beds. You know, just feeling sorry for
myself and missing my family and missing my freedom and

(01:11:28):
not being able to do whatever, you know, going to
bed hungry you ain't got no money and stuff like that.
It's not easy. It's hard. You know. The other day
I ate a bowl of rice for dinner because I
didn't have nothing else to eat, and the food there
wasn't nothing else on the trade to eat, you know.
I was I mixed some ocres where I love ochres,

(01:11:50):
and so we had oprahs and corn and rice and
some mother stuff and I just put that stuff together
like that and ate it, you know. So being in
here is an eat. We can think it is, and
it is for some people, but not saying okay, it's
just it's rough. You know. I just got a haircut today.
I couldn't even get in the shop and wash the

(01:12:11):
hair off. I had to come here in this little
bitty thing and wash the hair off off my head
so I won't get it on my head, you know,
And then it's hard. It's really hard. I don't know
what to tell you, you know, because sometimes I can
tell people about this place and they'd be like, oh
my god, are you serious? It Being sometimes in church

(01:12:33):
cool because, like I said, we can go to church.
And when we go to church, it ain't like you know,
they got security in there, and we go to church.
They had all us into church, twenty some people us inmates,
and they locked the door. And we going there and
served the Lord. We played music, if we sing, we

(01:12:54):
do the preaching and the dance and all that stuff.
You know. They let us go outside when we can,
you know, And you would think that like death row
would be changed all around your ways and stuff. They
don't do that here because this is a different place,
you know, other than other death roles. They don't. It's

(01:13:14):
just different. It's hard to explain it really is.

Speaker 2 (01:13:19):
There's thousands of people who have followed along with this story,
whether you know if when you talk about I know
you call her the makeup lady. She covered this story
and now so thousands and thousands of people have heard
about your case. But what do you want people to

(01:13:41):
know about your story and about you as a person.
What do you want people to know coming out of.

Speaker 8 (01:13:48):
This Well, first and foremost, First and foremost, I did
not do what they said I did. I did not
do that I had. I had a dear friend of
mine asked me that the other day, you know, and
and and she was like, I'm gonna just gonna ask

(01:14:08):
did you do this? And it's kind of put a
knot in my stomach to even have to defend that,
you know, And I just I just don't I I
just don't know how to how to even approach that,
but say, hey, no, I didn't do it, you know.
And I'm just not that type of person to do

(01:14:29):
anything like that, you know, to anyone. And I am
who I am, you know. I think I think that
I'm a nice person. I think that I get along
with just about anybody, you know. I love my family,
you know, and I try to mold myself the way

(01:14:51):
the way my mom wanted me to be, you know.
My dad not so much.

Speaker 5 (01:14:55):
My dad.

Speaker 8 (01:14:56):
He was like, gott to be a trust you gotta
be man and all that stuff. You know. I am,
but my mom. I think I'm more of my mother's son,
you know, than my dad, you know what I'm saying.
And I didn't do this, you know, I didn't. I
didn't kill anyone. I was a drug addict, just on drugs,
you know. And and it really wasn't that serious if

(01:15:19):
as soon as I got locked up, I quit doing drugs.
You know, I forget what year was, ninety or ninety
one whatever. As soon as I got locked up, I
did no more drugs. You know. I don't do drugs.
I don't smoke cigarettes no more. I don't drink alcohol
and all that stuff they have here, you know, And
I could get it easy. I just don't want it,

(01:15:41):
you know. And I've changed that way, and I packed
myself on the back. But that because I know that
that's not even to do.

Speaker 3 (01:15:53):
Absolutely, and you know that we agree with you. We've
been very clear.

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
We basically consider you family now and you know we're
on your side, and that's why we took this on
because it's important for people to know all of the
things that happened, every bit of it. And you know,
we want to thank you for actually taking the time
to speak with us, because like we said, you know,

(01:16:20):
we we we know the story. We can find that information,
but it's it's sometimes it's hard to separate, you know,
a story. It's it's not a story, it's your life.
You're a person with a family, and you know, and
just it's important to know how you know what you've
been through and that there's actually a human being behind

(01:16:43):
all this.

Speaker 8 (01:16:44):
Yeah, yeah, you have one minute left. There's a lot
of times I feel that people don't people don't understand that,
people don't see that, you know, they're just looking at
me like, you know, this is this is what they
see you've done. So I believe you're doing it, you know.
And that's the hard part because I know I didn't
do it. And everybody wants to you know, nobody wants

(01:17:07):
to people to look at them like, you know, you
a killer, or or you this, or you bad. You
know what I'm saying. Everybody wants to be treated and
and be looked at as a good person. And I
do too, you know, I really do. This song is
going to hang up.