July 10, 2023 • 25 mins
In his book, “A Brother Asks - Uncommon Discourses About Hiram,” Bro. John Nagy details the two routes the Ruffians attempted to make an escape during the Hiramic Legend. This episode builds on Bro. Nagy’s extensive research on the allegory of the Master Mason degree, as we explore the geographic and esoteric significance of the Ruffian’s flight actions in Masonic ritual.
Show Links...
Order your copy of "A Brother Asks - Uncommon Discourses About Hiram," here... https://www.amazon.com/Brother-Asks-Uncommon-Discussions-about/dp/0991109449
Visit Bro. John Nagy online, here... https://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/
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Show Links...
Order your copy of "A Brother Asks - Uncommon Discourses About Hiram," here... https://www.amazon.com/Brother-Asks-Uncommon-Discussions-about/dp/0991109449
Visit Bro. John Nagy online, here... https://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/
Start your FREE 7-day trial of our podcast subscription, here... https://www.patreon.com/CraftsmenOnlinePodcast
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/craftsmen-online-podcast--4822031/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Welcome to the Craftsman Online Podcast,the only five star rated Masonic podcast endorsed
by the Grand Lodge of New York. Any opinions, thoughts, or viewpoints
shared during this program or that ofthe individual and do not reflect the official
position of any Grand Lodge appendant orcocordinate body from which that member may hail.
I'm your host, Brother Michael Arsay, co founder or Craftsman Online dot
com. And a quick reminder,you can now listen early and add free
(00:36):
to our podcast with our new subscriberoffer. Just click on the link in
the show notes for this episode tostart your free seven day trial. This
week, we are glad to havehim back, our returning champion, and
we actually have for those that arewatching on his YouTube channel some visual aids.
Brother John Naggi, who is theauthor of A Brother Asks Volume one,
(00:56):
Uncommon Discourses about hire him, alongwith many other writings that he does
as we have shared. Welcome back, Brother John. It's an honor prilege,
Brother Michael, thanks again for havingme. I love this episode.
It's kind of a book report forour listeners, so we're going to get
into a lot of the extensive researchthat you've done on the allegory of the
Master Mason degree. We'll get intosome of the geographic and esoteric significance of
(01:19):
the Ruffian's flight and their actions aswe do in the Masonic ritual, but
also dig into your book here andas we do with all of our podcasts.
I start with the disclaimer that sometimesyou can hear it the smile in
my voice. Because of the worldwe live in, we have to tell
people opinions, thoughts, whatever,But you handle it in a creative way
(01:40):
with your book. Tell us aboutthe suitable and fair warnings you provide to
your reader. I can tell youright off the bat that a lot of
my books take the readers into territoriesthat they had not considered, and as
a consequence, it's a roller coasterride for a lot of them emotionally because
they come into reading the book withpreconceived notions. And as a result of
(02:05):
coming into the book with preconceived notions, as I share more and more light
that those preconceived notions get challenged,and I encourage the brothers in my fair
and Suitable Warning to leave all preconceivednotions aside, read through the entire book
(02:25):
before they come to any conclusions andgive a fair and equitable opportunity to reconsider
what they've been taught. I lovetalking with you because you have that engineer
mindset, and I've always been toldlike the best way to write a story
and start from the end and thenwork your way back to the beginning so
(02:46):
you don't forget any of the details. I would have never thought to write
a book and then take a stepback and say, well, hey,
do I need to think about howthe reader would have thought about this or
what they're experience was. So thisisn't the first book that you've written for
the first fair and suitable warning thatI've provided in the books. It's become
(03:10):
common staple because well, quite honestly, I find that the reviewers of my
book stage one. I write thebook because I'm trying to get clarity on
things that I'm investigating, and therefore, the first run through on the book
is for my purposes of gaining clarity, and the second run through is okay.
(03:32):
Now that I have gotten it tothe point where I'm satisfied with it,
I want to share this information withother people. So what I do
is I have a collection of brotherswho critically review my book, and usually
when I have this trusted condre ofbrothers read through it, I have a
(03:54):
lot of them coming back saying,holy crown, aggy. The average mason
reading this, or shall I saythe average freemason reading this is going to
be deeply disturbed by the information thatI'm sharing. And yet the information I'm
sharing is freely available. All youhave to do is connect the dots.
(04:15):
So the second run through is satisfyingmy entourage of brothers who come to my
rescue and say, you need torewrite some of this, and reword a
few of these things, and finallywe craft it together so that it is
ready for the brothers out in thefield, so to speak, who are
looking for light and are trusting thatmyself and my collection of trusted brothers are
(04:42):
putting out material that have been reviewedcarefully. Yet even with the careful review,
I want to make sure that peoplewho opened the book are warned ahead
of time that the information that theyare about to review for themselves all the
way through is going to disturb them, but hopefully in a positive way.
(05:04):
You lead perfectly into the theme ofthis podcast episode, And if you've heard
previous episodes, we've spoken about theHaramic Legend with Brother John. But a
little background for the listener. Atthis point in the Haramic Legend where your
book starts, we're picking up inthe chapter where the Ruffians have slain Hiram
and they're looking to escape to foreigncountries. And it's interesting because those of
(05:28):
us that are learning and ritual weknow the two places that they try to
get to. But I love thispart of your book. A brother asked,
why did they chose choose those twoplaces? I never thought to ask
that so historically and esoterically. Whywas Joppa the first choice for the Ruffians?
From a practical standpoint if they wantedto make it out of the country,
(05:49):
it was forty miles literally from wherethey slayed to the Bow docs plus
a minus maybe a half a mile, but literally, if you plot in
from the Temple Mount area to Joppa, you get about forty miles. And
the interesting thing is that the wordforty, not the number forty, but
(06:12):
the word forty in symbolic terms meanstrial and test. And I found that
just absolutely fascinating that when I pluggedin the coordinates on the Google map,
it was forty miles plus amize afraction, and I'm saying, well,
there's an interesting number that I runacross in the past, and I knew
(06:33):
from past research that forty was testand trial. So here we have three
Ruffians who slay beauty. And thenwhat they do is they have to travel
forty miles. They're tested, andwhen they finally are through with their test,
where do they wind up. Theywind up smacked ab in front of
(06:54):
beauty. Now they're saying no,no, John. They travel to Joppa.
Well, if you look up whatmeans, it means beautiful and it's
like, yeah, they slay beautybecause beauty wouldn't give up beauty secrets.
And then they are tested and wherethey wind up smacked up in front of
beauty again and they get rejected Whybecause they didn't have Wisdom's passport. So
(07:19):
the entire tale takes on an entirelead different feel when you replace what things
are symbolic represented as because they're characters. You know, Hiram is a character,
The Ruffians are characters. The fortymiles is symbolic. Joppa is yet
another representation of Hiram, you know, because Hiram is beauty and Joppa is
(07:43):
beautiful. So it's like they don'thave King Solomon's passport. Well, you
know, King Solomon is wisdom,and so what you're actually saying is Joppa
rejected them because they weren't wise enough. Well, you've made the comment,
and I've borrowed your phrase and sharedit with other brothers that the mac legend
is really an allegory within an allegory. But this almost has like an inception
(08:03):
moment where it just continues to bean allegory with more, with more.
It is probably when you investigate this, would you say one of the best
written stories that is out there thatis not from the Bible. I find
it utterly fascinating, how beautifully renderedit is, and how fascinating the wisdom
(08:26):
that is being conveyed by this entireallegory can be to somebody who takes the
time to roll through sleeves and investigateit. And there's a lot of things
that happen during this degree and youas a when you're witnessing it, either
as a sideliner or a candidate that'sgoing through it, there's new characters and
(08:48):
settings and situations that come to play. And again it's that by fire hose
initiation experience where you're like, Idon't understand any of this, but there's
one character that'sis out and we've jokedthat now in modern practices of the ritual,
it's almost there in a comic reliefway. Just because lodges don't know
(09:09):
how to properly attire the seafaring man, I guess it's the best way.
He ends up looking like the Gordonfisherman. And it's even funnier if you're
in the New England area and abrother is dressed like that and does his
part with the accent. It reallycompletes it for the win. But let's
talk about the seriousness of the seafaringman, his job. Why is he
(09:30):
there and especially why is he there? At that moment in the story,
the three Ruffians were trying to exitthe country as fast as they could,
and the fastest way that they believedwas by port, getting to a port,
and it happened to be Joppa,And of course we know it.
(09:52):
It's not coincidence. It's you know, we're telling a story and each character
in each place is characteristic of whatis trying to be. As I said,
you know, Japa is beautiful,and so they're done with their forty
mile track, aka their test,and they get rejected once again. And
the interesting thing about the rejection isBeauty did not care how much money they
(10:16):
had nor how strong they were,And the seafaring Man basically said, I
don't care for your money. Itmakes no difference to me how much resource
you have. Without wisdom, youshall not pass. And there's a strong
message there because in order for themto have the Master's word, they had
(10:41):
to have the secrets of the masterMason, and if they didn't have the
secrets of a master Mason, therewere no way going to be able to
have the wisdom to understand what ittakes to bring about beauty. That's a
strong message to candidates if they areyou know, coached and instructed and mentored
(11:01):
toward understanding what the tail is actuallyconveying and how it relates to what they're
trying to do in their lives.Yeah. Well, in the first past,
you're just seeing, Okay, there'sthese guys, this horrible thing.
They committed murder, they killed Grandmasterhammer Biff. Now they're trying to get
out of the area there like anycriminal. They just it didn't seem like
they really had a plan what ifthings go wrong? There was no plan
(11:22):
B. And now every time they'vetried to make their escape, they just
get shut down and shut down.And the details that you're providing is that
forensic analysis that really is lacking.I think in the ritual and the education
that comes that should follow up afterwardsis really consider less of this as a
flight and a flea. But whythey were being told they couldn't get out
(11:46):
of the situation that they were in, and it reinforces exactly the reason why
im Abif said to them, youknow, you can't have it until the
temple is complete. You have todo the work. You must complete the
temple in order for you to havethe wisdom to understand the Master's word.
(12:07):
And without the wisdom, you aren'tgoing to be able to understand what the
Master is conveying to you, whichis what the Master's word is all about.
It it's a conveyance of wisdom.But you're not going to be able
to glean that wisdom without the foundationof understanding. And they simply didn't have
it. But they really, youknow, what they wanted was a participation
(12:31):
trophy, right. They wanted tobe able to say I got something because
I showed up, not because Idid anything special or completed any tid task
or earned it by virtue of meshowing up. I ought to be able
to get it. That's another sidepart of this. I'm interested in future
generations and you talk about the participation, ribbons and trophies in the entitlement that
(12:56):
some generations young folks feel. Ishow they view that part of the story.
Where my reaction, I'm sure itwas pretty much the same as yours.
It's like, well, of course, these guys aren't going to get
it. They weren't good masons.They weren't finished. They tried to circumnavigate
the deal that was you will getthis when the temple is finished. Their
(13:18):
work wasn't complete, So of coursethey don't. Where I'm interested to hear
the perspective of others that would say, oh, well they were close enough.
Well, they don't realize is thatif you go all the way up
to the finish line but don't crossit, is that good enough. Hey,
(13:43):
it's brother Michael RC, co founderof Craftsman Online and hosts of the
podcast. Though you're listening too now. We are so excited from the announcement
of our new subscription service for ourpodcast and just overwhelmed by the support of
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(14:07):
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(14:28):
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(14:52):
a month. Take your Craftsman OnlinePodcast listening experience to the next level.
So for this episode of the CraftsmanOnline Podcast, we have the author of
this book on your screen and inyour Ears of a Brother Asks Volume one,
Uncommon Discourses about Hiram were continue ourconversation with brother John Nagy. Where
(15:16):
we last left off, we hadthe denial of the three Ruffians as they
were trying to flee, they couldn'tget out of Joppa. So now they
turned their sights to Ethiopia. Andin the book you talk about Ethiopia and
how that's a vital connection but reallynot their final destination. Can you explain
that reasoning they weren't seeking to goto Ethiopia. It's very clear that they
(15:43):
had one serious plan, and thatwas to get out of town as fast
as they can. And they didn'task are you going to Ethiopia? Where
we need to go to Ethiopia?And at that instant all three said,
coincidentally, are we no, Ithink we're trying to get out of town.
(16:03):
Ethiopia just happened to be the veryfirst destination that they encountered, and
therefore there's a lot been made outof the fact that Ethiopia is mentioned,
but quite honestly, it's only mentionedin a very narrow selection of rituals.
Like in America we use Ethiopia,but in other nations and other jurisdictions,
(16:30):
Ethiopia is not even mentioned. Andas a result, I have to ask
why was Ethiopia thrown in there?What was the importance of Ethiopia even being
mentioned? In Ethiopia is one oftwo locations in the world where the Bible
is actually different. They have abook, the Book of Enoch in their
(16:55):
Bible. I think that somebody probablysaid, you know, we're gonna we're
going to create another breadcrumb trail firstand foremost. Where we look at Ethiopia
right now, it's very small,but Ethiopia back then was quite a huge
and you can literally access it throughthe Nile. And the fact that there
(17:17):
is a direct connection between the Keen, the Queen of Sheba and Solomon is
also a nice titillating bread from topursue. I just jotted that as a
thing to do here on my list. So can you fill us in,
like what we would find in thereor what's so unique about this book?
Well, let's just say that alot of the stories that are in the
(17:40):
Bible are continued in the Book ofEnoch. And as a result, as
Paul Hardy would say, and nowthe rest of the story, the Book
of Enoch has got a lot ofinteresting twists and a lot of interesting continuations.
They go further with the story.The people who have sprinkled these little
(18:03):
easter eggs throughout our ritual, theyknew what they were doing right right well,
And I also have to thank younow because I've got a new rabbit
hole to go pursue. I'm sureour listeners gonna be like, what,
let's go look into this book.You know, I can see I'm also
interested in hearing the history of it. You know, one of the studies
that I've done in the Bible isjust who wrote that or who's credited with
writing that, the origins, andreally how the Bible is kind of out
(18:27):
of order when it comes to thetimeline of when it was written versus you
know, how we read it nowand where this Book of Enoch would kind
of fit into that. If it'sthe Rosetta stone key, so to speak,
of all of the stories of theBible, it's good stuff, brother,
and well worth pursuing. Just likeevery book in the Bible. The
(18:48):
look of Enoch is no different.And if you don't lay the foundation of
your temple before you crack open thebook, Mimimedes had a very, very
wise statement. He said, ifyou are wanting to pursue metaphysics, you
have to lay down the foundation ofphysics first, and do not do the
(19:08):
basics. If you do not laydown order in your heart and order in
your mind, any religious pursuit thatyou get on will end in complete infidelity
because you do not have Wisdom's passportin order to understand what you're reading.
That is the new subtle and fairwarning to our reader and listener. When
(19:33):
brothers start pursuing metaphysics, my firststatement is, oh, have you completed
your physics studies yet? And invariablyof vast majority and say, well,
why would I want to study physics? And my comment back is because if
(19:53):
you're going to be chasing down unicorns, you've got to realize that they're not
real. It's another note I've gotto make. I missed those podcast episodes
the Unicorns around the Campfire. Gota round a couple of those up.
All right, let's close out thispodcast with our final question here, and
we're gonna finish up our book reviewand time with our author. The book
(20:15):
again is a brother asks uncommon discoursesabout Hiram. We have the first volume
that we're previewing with brother John Nagy. And after reading your book and reflecting
on a lot of my study inour ritual, I came to a studding
conclusion based on the Ruffians confession toKing Solomon. And unlike most murder suspects,
they kind of have a feeling likethey maybe we're bad fellow crafts that
(20:41):
somehow possibly learned a lesson. Doyou get that sense too in their confession
of the crime of this sin thatthey did. I get the distinct impression
by their confession that they had notsubdued their passions and kept their desires within
due bounds. They recognize it alltoo. As a consequence of them realizing
(21:03):
it, they suffered the ultimate priceas a consequence of it. Were they
bad, well, they did baddeeds. If they had done their entered
apprentice work, and they had donetheir fellowcraft work, they would have been
able to complete the temple. Andthey clearly did not know how to use
(21:29):
the working tools properly. And whenI look at in the American Right,
they used the twenty four inch gauge, and obviously they were not using the
twenty four inch gauge as it wasmeant to be used, and they lacked
all priorities, because that's what thetwenty four inch gauge is about. It's
making sure that your priorities are takencare of and their priorities were rescued.
(21:55):
And in the American Right, thesquare is also used, and the square
is the square virtue, and theyindicated through their actions that they had not
invested virtue and created the square virtuefor themselves. And last, but not
least, and a lot of peopledon't know, the setting mall is common
(22:17):
throughout the Freemasonic system, and thesetting mall, the modern day equivalent of
the setting mall is the dead blowhammer. If you ever used a dead
blow hammer in anything that you've done, it's designed so that when you hit
something, the head of the hammerdeforms so that it does not do damage
(22:38):
to what it hits. It isdesigned to nudge and reshape without damaging.
And it's very obvious that the Ruffianwho was using it was using it so
badly that even though the tool wasdesigned not to harm what it was hitting.
(23:02):
You know, he harmed what hewas hitting, which tells you that
once again he had not done Heentered apprentice and fellowcraft work, and in
doing so, it was clearly evidentthat he had not completed his temple by
virtue of the way that he wasusing the working tool. But the little
(23:23):
teas here, you didn't bring upthe Ruffian's names, which I gave in
the book clear indication of what theRuffians names not only were, but what
they were conveying and also in whatlanguage they were conveying. You brought none
of that up. He didn't bringanything up about resurrected or was hire him
(23:45):
raised? And what their difference is, and how you can defend whatever conclusion
you come to, and a hostof other things that are blatantly important in
the book. You didn't bring thoseup. Well, you know, I
had a nice inscription in here fromthe brother that was the author that wrote
(24:10):
this book, and I thought,you know, he's right. I'm going
to hold onto this for future episodesand youth. So yeah, I think
we have a lot to discuss leftin this brother ass book here. I'm
looking forward to continuing that journey withyou, and I'm also very delighted that
you had mentioned for our video viewers, you've mentioned your podcast, but I
(24:36):
have a video channel that these podcastsare literally in video form shown on the
YouTube channel, it's John s NagyAnd for the listeners who are interested in
watching the interaction between you and I, I'd like to mention that the YouTube
channel is where you would see that. Yeah, and you can vote on
(24:56):
who the more handsome brother is.I already know where the needles going.
Congratulations, John. I will alsotease for our listener that our next episode
will air on Monday, August fourteenth, and that's when John Nagie will return
to talk about traveling to foreign countries. Oh that's a great, great which
(25:18):
is also a topic that has coveredin our book that we talked about.
If you've enjoyed this podcast episode andyou'd like to hear more, you can
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(25:38):
You can get the link to startyour seven day free child in the notes
for this episode. Until next time, let peace and harmony prevail.
Welcome to the Craftsman Online Podcast,the only five star rated Masonic podcast endorsed
by the Grand Lodge of New York. Any opinions, thoughts, or viewpoints
shared during this program or that ofthe individual and do not reflect the official
position of any Grand Lodge appendant orcocordinate body from which that member may hail.
I'm your host, Brother Michael Arsay, co founder or Craftsman Online dot
com. And a quick reminder,you can now listen early and add free
(00:36):
to our podcast with our new subscriberoffer. Just click on the link in
the show notes for this episode tostart your free seven day trial. This
week, we are glad to havehim back, our returning champion, and
we actually have for those that arewatching on his YouTube channel some visual aids.
Brother John Naggi, who is theauthor of A Brother Asks Volume one,
(00:56):
Uncommon Discourses about hire him, alongwith many other writings that he does
as we have shared. Welcome back, Brother John. It's an honor prilege,
Brother Michael, thanks again for havingme. I love this episode.
It's kind of a book report forour listeners, so we're going to get
into a lot of the extensive researchthat you've done on the allegory of the
Master Mason degree. We'll get intosome of the geographic and esoteric significance of
(01:19):
the Ruffian's flight and their actions aswe do in the Masonic ritual, but
also dig into your book here andas we do with all of our podcasts.
I start with the disclaimer that sometimesyou can hear it the smile in
my voice. Because of the worldwe live in, we have to tell
people opinions, thoughts, whatever,But you handle it in a creative way
(01:40):
with your book. Tell us aboutthe suitable and fair warnings you provide to
your reader. I can tell youright off the bat that a lot of
my books take the readers into territoriesthat they had not considered, and as
a consequence, it's a roller coasterride for a lot of them emotionally because
they come into reading the book withpreconceived notions. And as a result of
(02:05):
coming into the book with preconceived notions, as I share more and more light
that those preconceived notions get challenged,and I encourage the brothers in my fair
and Suitable Warning to leave all preconceivednotions aside, read through the entire book
(02:25):
before they come to any conclusions andgive a fair and equitable opportunity to reconsider
what they've been taught. I lovetalking with you because you have that engineer
mindset, and I've always been toldlike the best way to write a story
and start from the end and thenwork your way back to the beginning so
(02:46):
you don't forget any of the details. I would have never thought to write
a book and then take a stepback and say, well, hey,
do I need to think about howthe reader would have thought about this or
what they're experience was. So thisisn't the first book that you've written for
the first fair and suitable warning thatI've provided in the books. It's become
(03:10):
common staple because well, quite honestly, I find that the reviewers of my
book stage one. I write thebook because I'm trying to get clarity on
things that I'm investigating, and therefore, the first run through on the book
is for my purposes of gaining clarity, and the second run through is okay.
(03:32):
Now that I have gotten it tothe point where I'm satisfied with it,
I want to share this information withother people. So what I do
is I have a collection of brotherswho critically review my book, and usually
when I have this trusted condre ofbrothers read through it, I have a
(03:54):
lot of them coming back saying,holy crown, aggy. The average mason
reading this, or shall I saythe average freemason reading this is going to
be deeply disturbed by the information thatI'm sharing. And yet the information I'm
sharing is freely available. All youhave to do is connect the dots.
(04:15):
So the second run through is satisfyingmy entourage of brothers who come to my
rescue and say, you need torewrite some of this, and reword a
few of these things, and finallywe craft it together so that it is
ready for the brothers out in thefield, so to speak, who are
looking for light and are trusting thatmyself and my collection of trusted brothers are
(04:42):
putting out material that have been reviewedcarefully. Yet even with the careful review,
I want to make sure that peoplewho opened the book are warned ahead
of time that the information that theyare about to review for themselves all the
way through is going to disturb them, but hopefully in a positive way.
(05:04):
You lead perfectly into the theme ofthis podcast episode, And if you've heard
previous episodes, we've spoken about theHaramic Legend with Brother John. But a
little background for the listener. Atthis point in the Haramic Legend where your
book starts, we're picking up inthe chapter where the Ruffians have slain Hiram
and they're looking to escape to foreigncountries. And it's interesting because those of
(05:28):
us that are learning and ritual weknow the two places that they try to
get to. But I love thispart of your book. A brother asked,
why did they chose choose those twoplaces? I never thought to ask
that so historically and esoterically. Whywas Joppa the first choice for the Ruffians?
From a practical standpoint if they wantedto make it out of the country,
(05:49):
it was forty miles literally from wherethey slayed to the Bow docs plus
a minus maybe a half a mile, but literally, if you plot in
from the Temple Mount area to Joppa, you get about forty miles. And
the interesting thing is that the wordforty, not the number forty, but
(06:12):
the word forty in symbolic terms meanstrial and test. And I found that
just absolutely fascinating that when I pluggedin the coordinates on the Google map,
it was forty miles plus amize afraction, and I'm saying, well,
there's an interesting number that I runacross in the past, and I knew
(06:33):
from past research that forty was testand trial. So here we have three
Ruffians who slay beauty. And thenwhat they do is they have to travel
forty miles. They're tested, andwhen they finally are through with their test,
where do they wind up. Theywind up smacked ab in front of
(06:54):
beauty. Now they're saying no,no, John. They travel to Joppa.
Well, if you look up whatmeans, it means beautiful and it's
like, yeah, they slay beautybecause beauty wouldn't give up beauty secrets.
And then they are tested and wherethey wind up smacked up in front of
beauty again and they get rejected Whybecause they didn't have Wisdom's passport. So
(07:19):
the entire tale takes on an entirelead different feel when you replace what things
are symbolic represented as because they're characters. You know, Hiram is a character,
The Ruffians are characters. The fortymiles is symbolic. Joppa is yet
another representation of Hiram, you know, because Hiram is beauty and Joppa is
(07:43):
beautiful. So it's like they don'thave King Solomon's passport. Well, you
know, King Solomon is wisdom,and so what you're actually saying is Joppa
rejected them because they weren't wise enough. Well, you've made the comment,
and I've borrowed your phrase and sharedit with other brothers that the mac legend
is really an allegory within an allegory. But this almost has like an inception
(08:03):
moment where it just continues to bean allegory with more, with more.
It is probably when you investigate this, would you say one of the best
written stories that is out there thatis not from the Bible. I find
it utterly fascinating, how beautifully renderedit is, and how fascinating the wisdom
(08:26):
that is being conveyed by this entireallegory can be to somebody who takes the
time to roll through sleeves and investigateit. And there's a lot of things
that happen during this degree and youas a when you're witnessing it, either
as a sideliner or a candidate that'sgoing through it, there's new characters and
(08:48):
settings and situations that come to play. And again it's that by fire hose
initiation experience where you're like, Idon't understand any of this, but there's
one character that'sis out and we've jokedthat now in modern practices of the ritual,
it's almost there in a comic reliefway. Just because lodges don't know
(09:09):
how to properly attire the seafaring man, I guess it's the best way.
He ends up looking like the Gordonfisherman. And it's even funnier if you're
in the New England area and abrother is dressed like that and does his
part with the accent. It reallycompletes it for the win. But let's
talk about the seriousness of the seafaringman, his job. Why is he
(09:30):
there and especially why is he there? At that moment in the story,
the three Ruffians were trying to exitthe country as fast as they could,
and the fastest way that they believedwas by port, getting to a port,
and it happened to be Joppa,And of course we know it.
(09:52):
It's not coincidence. It's you know, we're telling a story and each character
in each place is characteristic of whatis trying to be. As I said,
you know, Japa is beautiful,and so they're done with their forty
mile track, aka their test,and they get rejected once again. And
the interesting thing about the rejection isBeauty did not care how much money they
(10:16):
had nor how strong they were,And the seafaring Man basically said, I
don't care for your money. Itmakes no difference to me how much resource
you have. Without wisdom, youshall not pass. And there's a strong
message there because in order for themto have the Master's word, they had
(10:41):
to have the secrets of the masterMason, and if they didn't have the
secrets of a master Mason, therewere no way going to be able to
have the wisdom to understand what ittakes to bring about beauty. That's a
strong message to candidates if they areyou know, coached and instructed and mentored
(11:01):
toward understanding what the tail is actuallyconveying and how it relates to what they're
trying to do in their lives.Yeah. Well, in the first past,
you're just seeing, Okay, there'sthese guys, this horrible thing.
They committed murder, they killed Grandmasterhammer Biff. Now they're trying to get
out of the area there like anycriminal. They just it didn't seem like
they really had a plan what ifthings go wrong? There was no plan
(11:22):
B. And now every time they'vetried to make their escape, they just
get shut down and shut down.And the details that you're providing is that
forensic analysis that really is lacking.I think in the ritual and the education
that comes that should follow up afterwardsis really consider less of this as a
flight and a flea. But whythey were being told they couldn't get out
(11:46):
of the situation that they were in, and it reinforces exactly the reason why
im Abif said to them, youknow, you can't have it until the
temple is complete. You have todo the work. You must complete the
temple in order for you to havethe wisdom to understand the Master's word.
(12:07):
And without the wisdom, you aren'tgoing to be able to understand what the
Master is conveying to you, whichis what the Master's word is all about.
It it's a conveyance of wisdom.But you're not going to be able
to glean that wisdom without the foundationof understanding. And they simply didn't have
it. But they really, youknow, what they wanted was a participation
(12:31):
trophy, right. They wanted tobe able to say I got something because
I showed up, not because Idid anything special or completed any tid task
or earned it by virtue of meshowing up. I ought to be able
to get it. That's another sidepart of this. I'm interested in future
generations and you talk about the participation, ribbons and trophies in the entitlement that
(12:56):
some generations young folks feel. Ishow they view that part of the story.
Where my reaction, I'm sure itwas pretty much the same as yours.
It's like, well, of course, these guys aren't going to get
it. They weren't good masons.They weren't finished. They tried to circumnavigate
the deal that was you will getthis when the temple is finished. Their
(13:18):
work wasn't complete, So of coursethey don't. Where I'm interested to hear
the perspective of others that would say, oh, well they were close enough.
Well, they don't realize is thatif you go all the way up
to the finish line but don't crossit, is that good enough. Hey,
(13:43):
it's brother Michael RC, co founderof Craftsman Online and hosts of the
podcast. Though you're listening too now. We are so excited from the announcement
of our new subscription service for ourpodcast and just overwhelmed by the support of
great listeners like you. Here's whatyou get for just five dollars a month
and add for listening experience. Youget to hear all of the podcasts with
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(14:07):
first to hear new episodes, youget them at least a week before everybody
else. And we've also included exclusiveaccess to subscriber only content, like extended
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example, we've had brother John Nagywho extensively gets in to some of the
deeper meanings and lessons on subjects thathe's shared on our podcast. Plus,
(14:28):
coming soon, we'll have our firstexclusive Zoom webinar with a special guest that's
just for our subscribers, where youget to interact on Zoom with our guest
and me and get your questions askedand answered. All of this for just
five dollars a month. The linkwe're including it in this episode. You
can also find it on our websiteat craftsman online dot com. Five bucks
(14:52):
a month. Take your Craftsman OnlinePodcast listening experience to the next level.
So for this episode of the CraftsmanOnline Podcast, we have the author of
this book on your screen and inyour Ears of a Brother Asks Volume one,
Uncommon Discourses about Hiram were continue ourconversation with brother John Nagy. Where
(15:16):
we last left off, we hadthe denial of the three Ruffians as they
were trying to flee, they couldn'tget out of Joppa. So now they
turned their sights to Ethiopia. Andin the book you talk about Ethiopia and
how that's a vital connection but reallynot their final destination. Can you explain
that reasoning they weren't seeking to goto Ethiopia. It's very clear that they
(15:43):
had one serious plan, and thatwas to get out of town as fast
as they can. And they didn'task are you going to Ethiopia? Where
we need to go to Ethiopia?And at that instant all three said,
coincidentally, are we no, Ithink we're trying to get out of town.
(16:03):
Ethiopia just happened to be the veryfirst destination that they encountered, and
therefore there's a lot been made outof the fact that Ethiopia is mentioned,
but quite honestly, it's only mentionedin a very narrow selection of rituals.
Like in America we use Ethiopia,but in other nations and other jurisdictions,
(16:30):
Ethiopia is not even mentioned. Andas a result, I have to ask
why was Ethiopia thrown in there?What was the importance of Ethiopia even being
mentioned? In Ethiopia is one oftwo locations in the world where the Bible
is actually different. They have abook, the Book of Enoch in their
(16:55):
Bible. I think that somebody probablysaid, you know, we're gonna we're
going to create another breadcrumb trail firstand foremost. Where we look at Ethiopia
right now, it's very small,but Ethiopia back then was quite a huge
and you can literally access it throughthe Nile. And the fact that there
(17:17):
is a direct connection between the Keen, the Queen of Sheba and Solomon is
also a nice titillating bread from topursue. I just jotted that as a
thing to do here on my list. So can you fill us in,
like what we would find in thereor what's so unique about this book?
Well, let's just say that alot of the stories that are in the
(17:40):
Bible are continued in the Book ofEnoch. And as a result, as
Paul Hardy would say, and nowthe rest of the story, the Book
of Enoch has got a lot ofinteresting twists and a lot of interesting continuations.
They go further with the story.The people who have sprinkled these little
(18:03):
easter eggs throughout our ritual, theyknew what they were doing right right well,
And I also have to thank younow because I've got a new rabbit
hole to go pursue. I'm sureour listeners gonna be like, what,
let's go look into this book.You know, I can see I'm also
interested in hearing the history of it. You know, one of the studies
that I've done in the Bible isjust who wrote that or who's credited with
writing that, the origins, andreally how the Bible is kind of out
(18:27):
of order when it comes to thetimeline of when it was written versus you
know, how we read it nowand where this Book of Enoch would kind
of fit into that. If it'sthe Rosetta stone key, so to speak,
of all of the stories of theBible, it's good stuff, brother,
and well worth pursuing. Just likeevery book in the Bible. The
(18:48):
look of Enoch is no different.And if you don't lay the foundation of
your temple before you crack open thebook, Mimimedes had a very, very
wise statement. He said, ifyou are wanting to pursue metaphysics, you
have to lay down the foundation ofphysics first, and do not do the
(19:08):
basics. If you do not laydown order in your heart and order in
your mind, any religious pursuit thatyou get on will end in complete infidelity
because you do not have Wisdom's passportin order to understand what you're reading.
That is the new subtle and fairwarning to our reader and listener. When
(19:33):
brothers start pursuing metaphysics, my firststatement is, oh, have you completed
your physics studies yet? And invariablyof vast majority and say, well,
why would I want to study physics? And my comment back is because if
(19:53):
you're going to be chasing down unicorns, you've got to realize that they're not
real. It's another note I've gotto make. I missed those podcast episodes
the Unicorns around the Campfire. Gota round a couple of those up.
All right, let's close out thispodcast with our final question here, and
we're gonna finish up our book reviewand time with our author. The book
(20:15):
again is a brother asks uncommon discoursesabout Hiram. We have the first volume
that we're previewing with brother John Nagy. And after reading your book and reflecting
on a lot of my study inour ritual, I came to a studding
conclusion based on the Ruffians confession toKing Solomon. And unlike most murder suspects,
they kind of have a feeling likethey maybe we're bad fellow crafts that
(20:41):
somehow possibly learned a lesson. Doyou get that sense too in their confession
of the crime of this sin thatthey did. I get the distinct impression
by their confession that they had notsubdued their passions and kept their desires within
due bounds. They recognize it alltoo. As a consequence of them realizing
(21:03):
it, they suffered the ultimate priceas a consequence of it. Were they
bad, well, they did baddeeds. If they had done their entered
apprentice work, and they had donetheir fellowcraft work, they would have been
able to complete the temple. Andthey clearly did not know how to use
(21:29):
the working tools properly. And whenI look at in the American Right,
they used the twenty four inch gauge, and obviously they were not using the
twenty four inch gauge as it wasmeant to be used, and they lacked
all priorities, because that's what thetwenty four inch gauge is about. It's
making sure that your priorities are takencare of and their priorities were rescued.
(21:55):
And in the American Right, thesquare is also used, and the square
is the square virtue, and theyindicated through their actions that they had not
invested virtue and created the square virtuefor themselves. And last, but not
least, and a lot of peopledon't know, the setting mall is common
(22:17):
throughout the Freemasonic system, and thesetting mall, the modern day equivalent of
the setting mall is the dead blowhammer. If you ever used a dead
blow hammer in anything that you've done, it's designed so that when you hit
something, the head of the hammerdeforms so that it does not do damage
(22:38):
to what it hits. It isdesigned to nudge and reshape without damaging.
And it's very obvious that the Ruffianwho was using it was using it so
badly that even though the tool wasdesigned not to harm what it was hitting.
(23:02):
You know, he harmed what hewas hitting, which tells you that
once again he had not done Heentered apprentice and fellowcraft work, and in
doing so, it was clearly evidentthat he had not completed his temple by
virtue of the way that he wasusing the working tool. But the little
(23:23):
teas here, you didn't bring upthe Ruffian's names, which I gave in
the book clear indication of what theRuffians names not only were, but what
they were conveying and also in whatlanguage they were conveying. You brought none
of that up. He didn't bringanything up about resurrected or was hire him
(23:45):
raised? And what their difference is, and how you can defend whatever conclusion
you come to, and a hostof other things that are blatantly important in
the book. You didn't bring thoseup. Well, you know, I
had a nice inscription in here fromthe brother that was the author that wrote
(24:10):
this book, and I thought,you know, he's right. I'm going
to hold onto this for future episodesand youth. So yeah, I think
we have a lot to discuss leftin this brother ass book here. I'm
looking forward to continuing that journey withyou, and I'm also very delighted that
you had mentioned for our video viewers, you've mentioned your podcast, but I
(24:36):
have a video channel that these podcastsare literally in video form shown on the
YouTube channel, it's John s NagyAnd for the listeners who are interested in
watching the interaction between you and I, I'd like to mention that the YouTube
channel is where you would see that. Yeah, and you can vote on
(24:56):
who the more handsome brother is.I already know where the needles going.
Congratulations, John. I will alsotease for our listener that our next episode
will air on Monday, August fourteenth, and that's when John Nagie will return
to talk about traveling to foreign countries. Oh that's a great, great which
(25:18):
is also a topic that has coveredin our book that we talked about.
If you've enjoyed this podcast episode andyou'd like to hear more, you can
tell Siri or Alexa to play.The Craftsman Online podcasts were available on all
streaming platforms, with new episodes everyMonday, and don't forget a reminder,
you can listen to future episodes earlyand ad free with our subscriber offer.
(25:38):
You can get the link to startyour seven day free child in the notes
for this episode. Until next time, let peace and harmony prevail.
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