September 4, 2023 • 34 mins
Alchemy is generally defined as part art, spiritual philosophy, and experimental science. Over time, there have been many similarities between the practice of Alchemy and Freemasonry. WB Milosz Jeziorski is the host of the Creative Codex Podcast. He returns to share his findings on how the pursuit of personal enlightenment influenced Carl Jung’s writings in his "Red Book."
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(00:15):
Welcome to the Craftsman Online Podcast,the only five starwright of Masonic podcasts endorsed
by the Grand Lodge of New York. The comments, opinions, and views
shared during this program are those ofindividual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, Concordant, Body, Appendant Body, or Masonic
authority. I'm your host, brotherMichael Arsay, co founder of Craftsman Online
dot com. Quick reminder you cannow listen early and add free with our
(00:39):
new subscriber offer. Get the linkto start your seventy free trial and the
show notes for this episode. You'vejoined us for an episode on Alchemy's influence
on Carl Young, and I'm excitedto bring back one of my favorite guests.
He's known as MJ Dori and thehost of created Codex podcast, but
also we know him Masonically as WorcifulBrother milostis your Sky. He's the worshipful
(01:00):
master of Compact Loss number four htwo in Manhattan, New York. Welcome
back to the Craftsman Online Podcast,my brother Michael, Wow, thank you.
It's an honor. I always enjoyspeaking with you about any topics and
very much looking forward to this oneon two of my really two of my
favorite topics in a big way.You know, seriously, Melos, I
(01:21):
am a huge fan of your podcast. I listen every week. What I
love about it is the storytelling andthe unique histories perspective that you get on
art. And if you're not ahuge art fan, totally get it.
But Milos is a fantastic job withthe sound effects that he uses, the
music that he writes, and everythingthat he pulls together to really give you
(01:41):
that education that you feel like,Wow, why didn't I learn this in
high school? And we finally crosseda unique point during the year this year
when you did a special podcast onCarl Jung his Red Book and alchemy,
and I'm like, oh, Iknow, we gotta get Milos in on
the podcast for this. So startwith alchemy. We know it's one of
the oldest practices, dates back toHellenistic Egypt in the first century. We
(02:06):
could, and we should do awhole show just on alchemy, but for
the benefit of those of the looseunderstanding of alchemy, like myself, how
do you explain it in simple terms? Yeah? So that's the really interesting
and bizarre thing about alchemy is thatit's a tradition that's lasted over two thousand
years, and because of that,it's picked up so many rich elements,
(02:30):
and it's picked up elements from neighboringparallel traditions and in Western esotericism, and
it's influenced so much of culture invarious ways too. I think of it
like that it runs parallel to Westernculture under like these cavernous passageways that continue
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to this day. And so thesimplest way though I can describe it,
I've written it down kind of inthe most concise way possible. So I'll
I'll read this as my way ofdefining it. So, alchemy is an
esoteric spiritual tradition whose practice centers aroundthe manipulation and transmutation of matter. It
(03:13):
achieves this using processes found in nature, which the alchemist performs in a personal
laboratory. Due to its esoteric nature, alchemical treatises and artworks are often marked
by obscure references, metaphorical imagery,and a reverent spiritual tenor so. The
main ingredient there though, that separatesit from all other spiritual traditions and esoteric
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kind of practices, is this ideathat the alchemist isn't just part of some
philosophical tradition he or she, becausethey're worth very famous female alchemists as well.
They are engaged with manipulating matter insome way, and in the process
of these transmutations trans formations, theyare engaged in spiritual work, and the
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matter responds to their inner state,and they reflect on the way the matter
changes, and they also in kindrespond and develop themselves also psychologically and spiritually.
What surprises me is that alchemy andfreemasonry over time have been kind of
intertwined because of some of the keywordsthat you just head up esoteric nature,
(04:29):
symbolism, occult matter, and Ifeel like the myths that exists between the
two of them that are symbiotic aretied to that. But then there's also
some from the outside, Like onethat I've heard is, oh alchemists or
people who can take lead from apencil and turn it into gold. I
love that one. I haven't heardthat one regarding lead pencils yet. That's
(04:54):
especially entertaining. I like it.I might steal that one from you.
Well. I think it's fair tosurmise that what they're doing is try to
make alchemy seem more like magic ina way, it very much is within
the line of a magical tradition,because perhaps we won't get into this quite
yet, but but there is anelement of magic to it, the same
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way that ceremonial magic is a transformationalprocess, and there's a spiritual element involved
there that occasionally borders on creating somethingunexplainable, something that has metaphysical results.
But beyond that, yeah, hasa really bad rap for the last probably
about two hundred years. A littlemore so. The way I like to
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pinpoint it is when Isaac Newton diedin about the seventeen twenties, seventeen twenty
seven, I believe his assistant burnedall of his alchemical writings, because it
turns out one of these great earlyscientists of Isaac Newton, that whose theories,
you know, we still use asa framing for our world view and
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understanding, he was a great alchemist, and he wrote his own alchemical treatises,
and he studied the treatises of otheralchemists. And so when he dies,
his assistant burns everything he has that'srelated to alchemy, including his own
personal writings, out of fear fromthe stigma that alchemy had at the time
and still has today as this youknow, woo woo misguided form of early
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chemistry that was only about the greedof you know, attaining a piece of
gold that then one can sell offor trick others with. But obviously as
one actually looks at it in asober way, that there's a lot there
that is very interesting, very philosophical, but also has these metaphysical elements that
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are very difficult to pin down andexplain without trying it, or at least
reading someone's experiences who has tried it. We should be fair to the series
that you have on the podcast reallyhas a couple episodes on Carl Young,
you get into the Red Book,you even talk about this and other episodes
like Hey, if you haven't heardthis yet, go back and listen to
(07:10):
it. Melos, When you startedto really research into Carl Young, the
Red Book, Alchemy and freemasonry,and I realized that he didn't come in
that order. But what surprised youthe most when you started investigating Young and
how he was applying what he waslearning to his work right, Well,
part of what surprised me is thatagainst seeing him in the historical context,
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you realize that in the early nineteenhundreds, alchemy was relegated to the trash
heap of history. It really was. And one of Young's colleagues, Marie
Luis von Franz, was a greatanalyst in her own right, and her
author, she says, she callsit the dung heap of history. And
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no one was studying it, noone was writing, and there was when
no one was trying to translate thesechemical treatises in the early nineteen hundreds,
because, as we said, fortwo hundred years, all the minds and
intellectuals of our Western culture, we'relike, this thing is just a stupid
pastime of you greedy medieval people.Why would why would he even waste any
time? I'm taking a scholarly interestin it. So the fact that he
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started to stumble on it and seethese echoes of what he was doing and
developing in his own psychology and hisresearch and his theories. He started to
see these echoes within the alchemical art, within these treatises that he was reading,
within the way they speak about revelatorydreams in these alchemical treatises, that
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there's a lot there, and therewas enough there that he started to see
traditions like gnosticism and alchemy as aprecursor to psychology and a precursor to his
form of psychology called analytical psychology.So that's part was what surprised me,
was that he he had, youknow, the guts to say, you
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know, I'm going to spend aninsurmountainable amount of time translating these texts and
finding an assistant to do so,even though everybody else says this thing is
garbage. But I also enjoyed aboutyour podcast episode as you start to talk
about dreams and how Carl Young andhis mentor Freud really got into discussing that
dreams were less of these fairy talepainted like almost like Disney movies that were
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happening in your mind while we're sleeping, but really more away of your subconscious
mind trying to communicate with your consciousmind and make a connection, and that
the images and are much like ourmasnic ritual kind of like allegory pieces.
So the things that we're seeing inour dreams are just representations that are subconscious
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mind is manifesting so that somehow ourconscious mind can define this, understand it.
Right. So if I'm having adream, about you. I'm not
necessarily having a dream about Milo's oneof my favorite brothers down in Manhattan.
I'm having a dream about what youwould symbolically represent. Yeah, no,
it is. It is very bizarre. And when you start to take your
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dream seriously, as these traditions doand inform you to take this kind of
outlook on them, you start torealize that, yeah, the unconscious it's
languages, symbols, and it takesthat and multiplies it in everything in every
way. So in a dream,let's say, like you're describing, it's
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it sees everything symbolically, and soit represents it that way. And you
could argue, you know, thisis where the importance of Mason's symbols come
from. It's it's a way ofcommunicating with the unconscious. But in a
dream, the characters that you see, they're not just the characters as they're
(11:00):
represented in the real world. Everythingyou see in a dream and interact with,
and the situations and even the environmentsthey represent a part of you.
So when if you ever saw mein a dream, the question wouldn't be
what am I doing? Should Icall Milos see what he's up to?
Maybe that would be interesting, Butwhat a union analyst would recommend would be,
(11:24):
well, what does he represent inyou? What part of you is
he? And what is that partdoing lately? Is it in turmoil?
Are you avoiding that part? Areyou ignoring it? Is there something going
on that's maybe there's a conflict withthat part. So it's almost like looking
at these characters as which part ofme is that? And you start to
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realize that, oh, you know, I'm seeing this theater playing out every
night in my mind, and it'smy unconscious just showing me all all the
various influences that I may not realizeyou are happening in my life. Oh
A, dreams to me are likethe ultimate allegory. Any brother listening understands
what I'm talking about when you sitthrough the heramic legend and everything that's happening
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there and you're just overwhelmed, andall of these things have multiple meanings to
the point where I try in reallife, before I go to bed at
night, I'll take melatonin, I'lltry to go to bed at the right
time. I try to avoid watchingTikTok videos just so that I can have
good, vivid dreams and then tryto remember them. The next day,
they're like my little mini series.It happens when I sleep. Here's a
(12:31):
tip for you that I've only recentlyrealized is incredibly effective and explosive in some
ways. So one, just tryto make sure you keep something some semblance
of a dream journal that you're writein occasionally to show respect to your unconscious,
that you're paying attention to it,to what it's giving you. But
then the other element, let's say, like if you want to trigger something
(12:52):
like what you're talking about before yougo to sleep, when you're just sitting
up in bad maybe you know,sitting on the side the bed, sit
there with your with your eyes closedfor a moment. Maybe if you do
a prayer or something after that andsay to your unconscious, give me something
tonight that I can really chew on. Show me something like with a lot
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of depth that's going to make methink about It's going to have a lot
of meaning, and it's going toreally say something about me. And I
did this once, and the dreamI was given after this was so packed
with bizarre layers of meaning and itwas kind of like a very much like
a defining dream that surfaced a lotof things that I used to think about
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and dream and everything, and itwas so packed with meaning. I haven't
done it again since because I'm thinkingI stuff to figure out this one dream
my unconscious gave me after triggering that, after telling it, communicating to that
in this sense. So so tryit. Maybe it won't work the first
night, but try it again.Something will come up. It'll spit something
out for you that you can reallychew on. So many looks I love.
(14:07):
I think get back on the podcastbecause I think of some of our
previous episodes where I think when youfirst came on, you were talking about
the research you had done into Platoand the mystery schools and some of the
secret societies and what he was bringingtogether there. And then we also did
a great discussion talking about the Westernesoteric influences on Freemasonry and went really up
(14:30):
into the clouds and had a greatconversation on that. But this is the
first time that you and I havekind of connected on alchemy, and I'm
curious how you got into this.Maybe if it enhanced your experience going through
the ritual or the studies in freemasonry. Yeah, I mean, it's honestly
been each one of these traditions thatI personally end up engaging intellectually with.
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It just comes through coincidence. Correspondence, just comes through seeing several other people
mention it or talk about it,or a lecture or this or that,
and then my mind gets triggered inin these various ways where I start being
drawn to the thing, usually becausethere's there's an inherent paradox or a mystery
in the thing, Like with Kabbalah, you know, it's like, well,
(15:15):
what what what are all these shapesabout? What's this drop my pen
out of excitement? What's this diagramabout? You know, with these orbs,
and you start to get drawn intothe paradox and the mystery I feel,
and with alchemy is very much similar, and honestly, the paradox is
in alchemy there's they range and spanout in so many directions that it's just
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so fun. And as an artistmyself, just seeing the alchemical art and
the woodcuts and the paintings probably wasthe first thing that drew me into it
because it looks like surrealism from onethousand years ago, you know, style
like Salvador Dali. But it's like, what are they doing? Why?
Why? Why? Are they whyare they illus trading a man presenting a
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woman with a toad that is thenbeing applied to suckle on her naked breast.
It's like, what are they thinking? What is happening here? What
does this represent? And you getdrawn into it? You know that was
I think what took me in?Well one, I'm glad it's an artist
that sometimes when you see art,you take a step back and are trying
to really figure out what the inspirationis or what brought that composition together.
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So that's kind of refreshing because Isit there and wonder, like, am
I the only one not understanding what'shappening? But I would also say is
one of the things in Freemasonry,especially early in the first degree in the
New York Ritual, as we're toldthat we're going to be challenged, our
thoughts are going to be challenged,our belief system is going to be challenged,
and that we should be open toaccepting new things. For the most
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part, and alchemy and Rosa Crucianismare pretty much the two areas that I've
not really gotten that into. Butconversations like we're having his brothers gives me
some confidence to think Hey, Icould get into that, and I know
someone who is following that path.I would recommend, let's say, for
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homework for any of the listeners,or for yourself, if you wanted to
just pick up or order one ofthese alchemical treatises just to take a look
at it. One of the mostbeautiful celebrated ones is called Splendor. Soulis
splendor same way as we spell aspl e N d O R, and
then soulis a Latin term for thesun s l I S. And there's
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a beautiful full color version of ityou can order anywhere online, Amazon or
anything. And the paintings in thatare just so evocative and they just they
draw out so much out of youthat you could really use them as these
mandolas that you can meditate on too, in a sense. And then the
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other one that is just full ofalso very rich imagery and written discourses for
each one or each one of theseepigrams they're called, is Atalanta Fugens by
Michael Meyer, and again it's Latin. Atalanta is a female name, and
then Fugens fu gi e ns.And this is also one of these celebrated
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works that a close friend of minewho is a modern practicing alchemist mentions that
within that work is contained the secretof the work if you know how to
find it. I noticed when youhad talked about the Red Boat, Young
writes about Soul, which is thesun, and Luna, which is the
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moon, which are alchemical simmols thatrepresent consciousness and unconsciousness. Now, those
in the know that have gone throughour degrees in freemasonry also are told what
the sun and the moon represent IanMasonic lodges and outside of them. This
is no this is no coincidence.My friends, did you found that connection
too? Oh? Yeah, andothers as well. So what's partially going
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on there? I believe it hasto do with time period. So when
we're talking about anything from you know, the fifteen hundreds to the eighteen hundreds,
where masonry was really taking on veryinteresting kind of turns in its development,
it's getting influenced by these parallel esoterictraditions, one of them being alchemy
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for the very reason, very simplereason that the brothers that are participating in
it are also participating in these otherthings, and they're really interested in these
other threads of spiritual and intellectual pursuits. There's there's famous stories of even famous
alchemists, one being Cagliostro, whoin a Polish lodge in Warsaw performed an
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alchemical feat where he changed substance intosilver and it was it's written down because
one of the lodge members wrote thethe instance down, the event down,
and he describes it in great detailabout what he did, step by step,
what he told me to do.So it may have been the secretary
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of the lodge because of the detail, as we know. But it's very
interesting these you know, these thesethese traditions run parallel, and so the
idea of like the sun and moonhaving some degree of importance, just like
an alchemy, there's definitely a threadthere to to explore. And what about
the relation where Young talks about theinterplay between conscious and unconsciousness. Yeah,
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so the idea of the interplay betweenthese two is at the heart of Jungian
psychology. It's it's at the heartof Freudian psychology as well. But let's
say in Yung that we can usethis famous image of an iceberg, and
so the top of the iceberg that'sjust peeking out, let's say fifteen twenty
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feet is the conscious mind. It'swhat you know, it's what you can
quickly access with your daily thoughts.And then underneath the water surface is this
immense and vast body of the icebergthat's one hundred times the size of the
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one that's right up top, andthat's the unconscious. The unconscious contains everything
in there, everything from your birthessentially, because all of these memories become
these residual echoes that you continue toreact to, and they show up in
various ways, and they show upeven in let's say, as one direct
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example, as motivations. So formyself, I have a motivation which is
a need for approval. Many peopleprobably have that in some fashion. But
if you if I trace mind down, it probably goes down in various to
various roots, one of those rootsbeing that I was an immigrant kid that
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came to New York City and startedkindergarten here not knowing English, and so
the idea of approval from the teachersor other people became an important element of
my survival in the sense because Ifelt like an outcast. But then you
kind of trace it down, maybeyou could trace it down even further,
you know, you move it intoother areas and you start to realize that,
Oh wait, I'm still influenced bythis motivation almost every day. The
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idea of you know, approval frommy wife, the idea of validation from
strangers listening to my podcast, youknow, or being an artist and seeking
approval from people viewing you know,my art and how important in the sense
that is to my identity. Andso yeah, it's it's the unconscious.
Is this constant influence on what ishappening in your daily lives? You made
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another point, and I was thinkingthat when you know, I'm in a
professional setting, like at work inthe office and I'm interacting with a colleague
or appear like, you can tellhow a person carries themselves, their actions,
the words they use, the choicesthat they make, and how that
kind of relates to their struggles inlife or challenges that they're trying to overcome
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their issues. Right, I'm verycurious when you're looking at another artist work
through your lens as a fellow artist, do you pick up on these points
that you know, maybe it's ata brushstroke or a color or a run
and how the music goes, orjust an image that they're using or a
theme that's reappearing like do you pickup on some of the conscious struggles or
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trauma that they may be having intheir psyche. I think at times it
becomes communicated through a piece of work. But I think more importantly the way
I view it, and perhaps otherartists do as well, is that to
be an artist, you're very muchare a conduit of something. Would argue
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your conduit of your unconscious and yourculture is unconscious. There's also there's not
only your personal unconscious, it's alsothe unconscious of the collective you belong in,
and it goes even deeper, eventhe unconscious of humanity itself. That's
a different conversation perhaps, but theidea being that m you are always a
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conduit for something. Occasionally that you'reyou're just being a conduit for your own
personal perhaps complexes or memories or traumas, and those are expressed and that becomes
obvious. But in other cases,like in the work of this artist hr
Geiger g I g Er, whois very famous for very dark, oppressive
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kind of subject matter in his paintings, often showing machine like creatures kind of
subduing humans or being in symbiotic relationshipwith them, and he's doing this in
the seventies, before this was evena thing on our minds. And so
then you're, WHOA, this guymust have been freaked out when he was
a kid. He must be traumatized. But I did it. You know,
I did an episode on in myWriti's biography. He had a great
(25:07):
childhood. None of those things exist. He just he was a conduit for
this kind of message, for thiskind of art. You know, what
about the one artist that you hadon the podcast earlier this year. I
can't remember her name, but she'sthe one to do a performance art where
basically she would hurt herself, right, Marina Abramovich, right right, that's
her. Yes. So I usuallylisten to your podcast earlier in the morning
(25:29):
when I go from my runs.It's a great way to just dive in
and there's no distractions. All I'mfocusing on as the road ahead of me.
And I remember hearing the story andI was turning corners as I was
running my round, I was like, oh my gosh, this poor woman
we get on stage and basically tortureherself, which was a form of her
performance art. Would you associate withher as a person who had trauma?
(25:53):
And this is how she was tryingto express herself. So here's a case
where it does seem like looking ather life and her own way of telling
her life story, that yes,that there was a lot of factors in
her childhood in the oppressive kind ofcommunist regime that she grew up in,
(26:15):
and her her lack of affection andsome being on the receiving end of quite
a bit of abuse from her mother, her physical and emotional distance from her
father. You know, these kindsof factors. Were looking at it as
a biographers, as a potential,you know, armchairst psychologists, You're like,
(26:36):
yeah, that makes sense, thatmakes sense. Why she would,
you know, carve patterns into herstomach with a razorblade during performances to you
know, get herself to bleed infront of an audience. But there are
definitely instances. Yeah, And thisis where you would get my endorsement as
a fan of the Creative Codex podcasthosted by Milos if you were looking for
(26:57):
something different that is out side ofyour normal podcast listening space. You get
a little bit of history, youget a lot of culture, you get
some great storytelling. It's all pulledtogether brilliantly with how he produces it.
This is something you're going to appreciate, creative codec. So I'll make sure
that the link to this podcast isin the show links for this episode.
(27:19):
But I find a lot of thelearning that I do by listening to your
podcast actually helps me in real life, especially with the relationships that I have
with other people. Right well,I did want to mention a very interesting
point about alchemy and how it relatesto Mason and let's see how it's shifted
my perception of it. And becausethese two traditions evolved on parallel paths and
(27:42):
were definitely Masonry is being influenced bythe thoughts and processes of alchemy. There's
an element in alchemy where they workwith these three principles called They call them
salt, mercury, and sulfur,and they just represent the physical compounds.
(28:02):
They represent aspects of reality. Sosalt is the body and the physical element
of anything in front of you.Mercury is the spirit, your spirit,
and all elements of matter have aspirit as well. And then sulfur is
the soul, the person's soul,and all living things plants, soul of
(28:26):
plants, the soul of minerals.So in an alchemist's view, when you're
working with these materials, you're notjust performing actions in the physical realm.
You're also performing in what they callis the subtle realm. And in Masonry,
I believe when we perform our rituals, this is also the realm we're
(28:47):
performing them. This is why somepeople have Masonic dreams in my view,
in my theory, right, sowhen you're performing the ritual, everyone is
in sync and every everything is set, everything is working perfectly, and that's
that's the aim I think we alwaysunconsciously are trying to reach. Is this
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idea that the perfection we have inthe ritual is not just for the sake
of perfection, is because we wantthat impact to be felt on an unconscious
level for the for the candidate,but also in the subtle realm, even
more in that area, where asthe alchemists say, the material becomes spirit
and spirit becomes material. So whilepreparing for this episode, I was surprised
(29:33):
to learn that the Red Book wasYoung's personal journal. That's how it started
out, and much like one ofmy favorite stow x Marcus a really as
a Really is was really just recordinghis own thoughts for further inspection and introspection,
where it seems that Young kind ofhad the idea that this could become
a book. So I'm just wondering, you know, do you feel that
(29:57):
Young held back published his journal whilehe was alive because maybe he felt the
content of what he was about toshare it was just too deep, right,
I mean, this is a greatquestion. And the fact that you
know the journal was withheld from publicview or publishing fifty years up to fifty
(30:17):
years after his death speaks to anumber of possible reasons. But from those
who were closest to him, theirexplanation, I think would probably hold the
most weight. And it was avery it was a very pragmatic reason,
and it had to do with thathe knew his stance in the world.
(30:40):
He knew that he was already labeledby fellow colleagues and people who continued to
follow Freud and disregarded Young's ideas.He was labeled as a mystic, and
they used this term, you know, as a pejorative. This wasn't a
positive thing for a psychologist to be, to be a mystic. He was
occasionally even labeled as attempting to starthis own religion, by creating analytical psychology
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because of the things that are engagedin this process, including something called active
imagination and forms of meditation and thingslike this and dream analysis. And so
he knew that the potential of peoplethen reading these things that he wrote in
the Red Book, which are thesevisionary meditative moments that he had and that
(31:29):
he translated into writing and art,that would completely confirm all of their horrible
theories. Interesting that you put itthat way, because some would think that
maybe he was holding back his thoughtsbecause maybe he didn't want his legacy to
be tarnished. But it feels thatreally the contributions that he was making his
actual work really helped future generations andonly enlightened or enhanced his prestige. So
(31:57):
I'm kind of hoping that journaling ison its way making a comeback. I
know, for myself personally, inmy office here at home, I keep
a journal of all the conversations Ihave with folks. I definitely journal at
work. I'm a serious note takerthat's been helpful throughout all of my career.
But I'm actually starting a thinking ofdoing more of a personal journal.
Like when I was back in college, I would keep track of my day
(32:20):
to day life, even if itwas just a paragraph, not like a
full page or anything. Has journallybecome something that you are practicing? Yeah,
No, absolutely, I was alreadyjournaling. Let's say a few years
ago. I was already keeping ajournal, and that has multiplied into me
keeping several journals for different purposes.So I have my dream journal, I
(32:45):
filled up one already, I'm onmy second one. I have what might
I call my work journal if I'msomewhere teaching a class and I want to
keep notes of what the structure isof the lessons of the class, of
who the students are, what theirnames are, and such. I have
my my other work journal, whichis specifically for things really related to the
(33:08):
podcast and things I'm pursuing creatively.And I have my esoteric journal, which
I use when I'm exploring and practicingvarious esoteric meditations or spiritual traditions that I
(33:29):
personally follow. And you have tocatalog and you know, transcribe the experience
in a very clear way so thatlater you know, you remember everything that
happened. So yeah, several journalsthat I keep track of now and and
I love it all. Honestly,and I wish I started all of them
sooner. Used to journal in thediary when I was a kid. But
my brother, it has been waytoo long and we are not going to
(33:50):
let more time pass until you comeback on the Craftsman Online podcast again.
I can't say enough. Please visithis podcast, give it a listen Creative
codex Ja Dorian better known as WorshipfulBrother Milos Jesiarski, thanks again for coming
back and being a part of theCraftsman Online podcast. It's been a pleasure
looking forward to the next time.For then, a reminder that you can
(34:12):
listen to future episodes early and addfree with our subscriber offer. Get the
link to start your seven day freetrial in the show notes for this episode.
And if you've enjoyed this podcast andyou want to hear more, you
can tell Siri or Alexa to play. The Craftsman Online podcasts were available on
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peace and harmony prevail.
Welcome to the Craftsman Online Podcast,the only five starwright of Masonic podcasts endorsed
by the Grand Lodge of New York. The comments, opinions, and views
shared during this program are those ofindividual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, Concordant, Body, Appendant Body, or Masonic
authority. I'm your host, brotherMichael Arsay, co founder of Craftsman Online
dot com. Quick reminder you cannow listen early and add free with our
(00:39):
new subscriber offer. Get the linkto start your seventy free trial and the
show notes for this episode. You'vejoined us for an episode on Alchemy's influence
on Carl Young, and I'm excitedto bring back one of my favorite guests.
He's known as MJ Dori and thehost of created Codex podcast, but
also we know him Masonically as WorcifulBrother milostis your Sky. He's the worshipful
(01:00):
master of Compact Loss number four htwo in Manhattan, New York. Welcome
back to the Craftsman Online Podcast,my brother Michael, Wow, thank you.
It's an honor. I always enjoyspeaking with you about any topics and
very much looking forward to this oneon two of my really two of my
favorite topics in a big way.You know, seriously, Melos, I
(01:21):
am a huge fan of your podcast. I listen every week. What I
love about it is the storytelling andthe unique histories perspective that you get on
art. And if you're not ahuge art fan, totally get it.
But Milos is a fantastic job withthe sound effects that he uses, the
music that he writes, and everythingthat he pulls together to really give you
(01:41):
that education that you feel like,Wow, why didn't I learn this in
high school? And we finally crosseda unique point during the year this year
when you did a special podcast onCarl Jung his Red Book and alchemy,
and I'm like, oh, Iknow, we gotta get Milos in on
the podcast for this. So startwith alchemy. We know it's one of
the oldest practices, dates back toHellenistic Egypt in the first century. We
(02:06):
could, and we should do awhole show just on alchemy, but for
the benefit of those of the looseunderstanding of alchemy, like myself, how
do you explain it in simple terms? Yeah? So that's the really interesting
and bizarre thing about alchemy is thatit's a tradition that's lasted over two thousand
years, and because of that,it's picked up so many rich elements,
(02:30):
and it's picked up elements from neighboringparallel traditions and in Western esotericism, and
it's influenced so much of culture invarious ways too. I think of it
like that it runs parallel to Westernculture under like these cavernous passageways that continue
(02:50):
to this day. And so thesimplest way though I can describe it,
I've written it down kind of inthe most concise way possible. So I'll
I'll read this as my way ofdefining it. So, alchemy is an
esoteric spiritual tradition whose practice centers aroundthe manipulation and transmutation of matter. It
(03:13):
achieves this using processes found in nature, which the alchemist performs in a personal
laboratory. Due to its esoteric nature, alchemical treatises and artworks are often marked
by obscure references, metaphorical imagery,and a reverent spiritual tenor so. The
main ingredient there though, that separatesit from all other spiritual traditions and esoteric
(03:39):
kind of practices, is this ideathat the alchemist isn't just part of some
philosophical tradition he or she, becausethey're worth very famous female alchemists as well.
They are engaged with manipulating matter insome way, and in the process
of these transmutations trans formations, theyare engaged in spiritual work, and the
(04:04):
matter responds to their inner state,and they reflect on the way the matter
changes, and they also in kindrespond and develop themselves also psychologically and spiritually.
What surprises me is that alchemy andfreemasonry over time have been kind of
intertwined because of some of the keywordsthat you just head up esoteric nature,
(04:29):
symbolism, occult matter, and Ifeel like the myths that exists between the
two of them that are symbiotic aretied to that. But then there's also
some from the outside, Like onethat I've heard is, oh alchemists or
people who can take lead from apencil and turn it into gold. I
love that one. I haven't heardthat one regarding lead pencils yet. That's
(04:54):
especially entertaining. I like it.I might steal that one from you.
Well. I think it's fair tosurmise that what they're doing is try to
make alchemy seem more like magic ina way, it very much is within
the line of a magical tradition,because perhaps we won't get into this quite
yet, but but there is anelement of magic to it, the same
(05:15):
way that ceremonial magic is a transformationalprocess, and there's a spiritual element involved
there that occasionally borders on creating somethingunexplainable, something that has metaphysical results.
But beyond that, yeah, hasa really bad rap for the last probably
about two hundred years. A littlemore so. The way I like to
(05:41):
pinpoint it is when Isaac Newton diedin about the seventeen twenties, seventeen twenty
seven, I believe his assistant burnedall of his alchemical writings, because it
turns out one of these great earlyscientists of Isaac Newton, that whose theories,
you know, we still use asa framing for our world view and
(06:01):
understanding, he was a great alchemist, and he wrote his own alchemical treatises,
and he studied the treatises of otheralchemists. And so when he dies,
his assistant burns everything he has that'srelated to alchemy, including his own
personal writings, out of fear fromthe stigma that alchemy had at the time
and still has today as this youknow, woo woo misguided form of early
(06:29):
chemistry that was only about the greedof you know, attaining a piece of
gold that then one can sell offor trick others with. But obviously as
one actually looks at it in asober way, that there's a lot there
that is very interesting, very philosophical, but also has these metaphysical elements that
(06:50):
are very difficult to pin down andexplain without trying it, or at least
reading someone's experiences who has tried it. We should be fair to the series
that you have on the podcast reallyhas a couple episodes on Carl Young,
you get into the Red Book,you even talk about this and other episodes
like Hey, if you haven't heardthis yet, go back and listen to
(07:10):
it. Melos, When you startedto really research into Carl Young, the
Red Book, Alchemy and freemasonry,and I realized that he didn't come in
that order. But what surprised youthe most when you started investigating Young and
how he was applying what he waslearning to his work right, Well,
part of what surprised me is thatagainst seeing him in the historical context,
(07:33):
you realize that in the early nineteenhundreds, alchemy was relegated to the trash
heap of history. It really was. And one of Young's colleagues, Marie
Luis von Franz, was a greatanalyst in her own right, and her
author, she says, she callsit the dung heap of history. And
(07:55):
no one was studying it, noone was writing, and there was when
no one was trying to translate thesechemical treatises in the early nineteen hundreds,
because, as we said, fortwo hundred years, all the minds and
intellectuals of our Western culture, we'relike, this thing is just a stupid
pastime of you greedy medieval people.Why would why would he even waste any
time? I'm taking a scholarly interestin it. So the fact that he
(08:20):
started to stumble on it and seethese echoes of what he was doing and
developing in his own psychology and hisresearch and his theories. He started to
see these echoes within the alchemical art, within these treatises that he was reading,
within the way they speak about revelatorydreams in these alchemical treatises, that
(08:43):
there's a lot there, and therewas enough there that he started to see
traditions like gnosticism and alchemy as aprecursor to psychology and a precursor to his
form of psychology called analytical psychology.So that's part was what surprised me,
was that he he had, youknow, the guts to say, you
(09:05):
know, I'm going to spend aninsurmountainable amount of time translating these texts and
finding an assistant to do so,even though everybody else says this thing is
garbage. But I also enjoyed aboutyour podcast episode as you start to talk
about dreams and how Carl Young andhis mentor Freud really got into discussing that
dreams were less of these fairy talepainted like almost like Disney movies that were
(09:31):
happening in your mind while we're sleeping, but really more away of your subconscious
mind trying to communicate with your consciousmind and make a connection, and that
the images and are much like ourmasnic ritual kind of like allegory pieces.
So the things that we're seeing inour dreams are just representations that are subconscious
(09:54):
mind is manifesting so that somehow ourconscious mind can define this, understand it.
Right. So if I'm having adream, about you. I'm not
necessarily having a dream about Milo's oneof my favorite brothers down in Manhattan.
I'm having a dream about what youwould symbolically represent. Yeah, no,
it is. It is very bizarre. And when you start to take your
(10:15):
dream seriously, as these traditions doand inform you to take this kind of
outlook on them, you start torealize that, yeah, the unconscious it's
languages, symbols, and it takesthat and multiplies it in everything in every
way. So in a dream,let's say, like you're describing, it's
(10:39):
it sees everything symbolically, and soit represents it that way. And you
could argue, you know, thisis where the importance of Mason's symbols come
from. It's it's a way ofcommunicating with the unconscious. But in a
dream, the characters that you see, they're not just the characters as they're
(11:00):
represented in the real world. Everythingyou see in a dream and interact with,
and the situations and even the environmentsthey represent a part of you.
So when if you ever saw mein a dream, the question wouldn't be
what am I doing? Should Icall Milos see what he's up to?
Maybe that would be interesting, Butwhat a union analyst would recommend would be,
(11:24):
well, what does he represent inyou? What part of you is
he? And what is that partdoing lately? Is it in turmoil?
Are you avoiding that part? Areyou ignoring it? Is there something going
on that's maybe there's a conflict withthat part. So it's almost like looking
at these characters as which part ofme is that? And you start to
(11:46):
realize that, oh, you know, I'm seeing this theater playing out every
night in my mind, and it'smy unconscious just showing me all all the
various influences that I may not realizeyou are happening in my life. Oh
A, dreams to me are likethe ultimate allegory. Any brother listening understands
what I'm talking about when you sitthrough the heramic legend and everything that's happening
(12:09):
there and you're just overwhelmed, andall of these things have multiple meanings to
the point where I try in reallife, before I go to bed at
night, I'll take melatonin, I'lltry to go to bed at the right
time. I try to avoid watchingTikTok videos just so that I can have
good, vivid dreams and then tryto remember them. The next day,
they're like my little mini series.It happens when I sleep. Here's a
(12:31):
tip for you that I've only recentlyrealized is incredibly effective and explosive in some
ways. So one, just tryto make sure you keep something some semblance
of a dream journal that you're writein occasionally to show respect to your unconscious,
that you're paying attention to it,to what it's giving you. But
then the other element, let's say, like if you want to trigger something
(12:52):
like what you're talking about before yougo to sleep, when you're just sitting
up in bad maybe you know,sitting on the side the bed, sit
there with your with your eyes closedfor a moment. Maybe if you do
a prayer or something after that andsay to your unconscious, give me something
tonight that I can really chew on. Show me something like with a lot
(13:15):
of depth that's going to make methink about It's going to have a lot
of meaning, and it's going toreally say something about me. And I
did this once, and the dreamI was given after this was so packed
with bizarre layers of meaning and itwas kind of like a very much like
a defining dream that surfaced a lotof things that I used to think about
(13:39):
and dream and everything, and itwas so packed with meaning. I haven't
done it again since because I'm thinkingI stuff to figure out this one dream
my unconscious gave me after triggering that, after telling it, communicating to that
in this sense. So so tryit. Maybe it won't work the first
night, but try it again.Something will come up. It'll spit something
out for you that you can reallychew on. So many looks I love.
(14:07):
I think get back on the podcastbecause I think of some of our
previous episodes where I think when youfirst came on, you were talking about
the research you had done into Platoand the mystery schools and some of the
secret societies and what he was bringingtogether there. And then we also did
a great discussion talking about the Westernesoteric influences on Freemasonry and went really up
(14:30):
into the clouds and had a greatconversation on that. But this is the
first time that you and I havekind of connected on alchemy, and I'm
curious how you got into this.Maybe if it enhanced your experience going through
the ritual or the studies in freemasonry. Yeah, I mean, it's honestly
been each one of these traditions thatI personally end up engaging intellectually with.
(14:54):
It just comes through coincidence. Correspondence, just comes through seeing several other people
mention it or talk about it,or a lecture or this or that,
and then my mind gets triggered inin these various ways where I start being
drawn to the thing, usually becausethere's there's an inherent paradox or a mystery
in the thing, Like with Kabbalah, you know, it's like, well,
(15:15):
what what what are all these shapesabout? What's this drop my pen
out of excitement? What's this diagramabout? You know, with these orbs,
and you start to get drawn intothe paradox and the mystery I feel,
and with alchemy is very much similar, and honestly, the paradox is
in alchemy there's they range and spanout in so many directions that it's just
(15:39):
so fun. And as an artistmyself, just seeing the alchemical art and
the woodcuts and the paintings probably wasthe first thing that drew me into it
because it looks like surrealism from onethousand years ago, you know, style
like Salvador Dali. But it's like, what are they doing? Why?
Why? Why? Are they whyare they illus trading a man presenting a
(16:03):
woman with a toad that is thenbeing applied to suckle on her naked breast.
It's like, what are they thinking? What is happening here? What
does this represent? And you getdrawn into it? You know that was
I think what took me in?Well one, I'm glad it's an artist
that sometimes when you see art,you take a step back and are trying
to really figure out what the inspirationis or what brought that composition together.
(16:27):
So that's kind of refreshing because Isit there and wonder, like, am
I the only one not understanding what'shappening? But I would also say is
one of the things in Freemasonry,especially early in the first degree in the
New York Ritual, as we're toldthat we're going to be challenged, our
thoughts are going to be challenged,our belief system is going to be challenged,
and that we should be open toaccepting new things. For the most
(16:48):
part, and alchemy and Rosa Crucianismare pretty much the two areas that I've
not really gotten that into. Butconversations like we're having his brothers gives me
some confidence to think Hey, Icould get into that, and I know
someone who is following that path.I would recommend, let's say, for
(17:10):
homework for any of the listeners,or for yourself, if you wanted to
just pick up or order one ofthese alchemical treatises just to take a look
at it. One of the mostbeautiful celebrated ones is called Splendor. Soulis
splendor same way as we spell aspl e N d O R, and
then soulis a Latin term for thesun s l I S. And there's
(17:33):
a beautiful full color version of ityou can order anywhere online, Amazon or
anything. And the paintings in thatare just so evocative and they just they
draw out so much out of youthat you could really use them as these
mandolas that you can meditate on too, in a sense. And then the
(17:55):
other one that is just full ofalso very rich imagery and written discourses for
each one or each one of theseepigrams they're called, is Atalanta Fugens by
Michael Meyer, and again it's Latin. Atalanta is a female name, and
then Fugens fu gi e ns.And this is also one of these celebrated
(18:19):
works that a close friend of minewho is a modern practicing alchemist mentions that
within that work is contained the secretof the work if you know how to
find it. I noticed when youhad talked about the Red Boat, Young
writes about Soul, which is thesun, and Luna, which is the
(18:40):
moon, which are alchemical simmols thatrepresent consciousness and unconsciousness. Now, those
in the know that have gone throughour degrees in freemasonry also are told what
the sun and the moon represent IanMasonic lodges and outside of them. This
is no this is no coincidence.My friends, did you found that connection
too? Oh? Yeah, andothers as well. So what's partially going
(19:03):
on there? I believe it hasto do with time period. So when
we're talking about anything from you know, the fifteen hundreds to the eighteen hundreds,
where masonry was really taking on veryinteresting kind of turns in its development,
it's getting influenced by these parallel esoterictraditions, one of them being alchemy
(19:26):
for the very reason, very simplereason that the brothers that are participating in
it are also participating in these otherthings, and they're really interested in these
other threads of spiritual and intellectual pursuits. There's there's famous stories of even famous
alchemists, one being Cagliostro, whoin a Polish lodge in Warsaw performed an
(19:53):
alchemical feat where he changed substance intosilver and it was it's written down because
one of the lodge members wrote thethe instance down, the event down,
and he describes it in great detailabout what he did, step by step,
what he told me to do.So it may have been the secretary
(20:14):
of the lodge because of the detail, as we know. But it's very
interesting these you know, these thesethese traditions run parallel, and so the
idea of like the sun and moonhaving some degree of importance, just like
an alchemy, there's definitely a threadthere to to explore. And what about
the relation where Young talks about theinterplay between conscious and unconsciousness. Yeah,
(20:38):
so the idea of the interplay betweenthese two is at the heart of Jungian
psychology. It's it's at the heartof Freudian psychology as well. But let's
say in Yung that we can usethis famous image of an iceberg, and
so the top of the iceberg that'sjust peeking out, let's say fifteen twenty
(21:00):
feet is the conscious mind. It'swhat you know, it's what you can
quickly access with your daily thoughts.And then underneath the water surface is this
immense and vast body of the icebergthat's one hundred times the size of the
(21:21):
one that's right up top, andthat's the unconscious. The unconscious contains everything
in there, everything from your birthessentially, because all of these memories become
these residual echoes that you continue toreact to, and they show up in
various ways, and they show upeven in let's say, as one direct
(21:44):
example, as motivations. So formyself, I have a motivation which is
a need for approval. Many peopleprobably have that in some fashion. But
if you if I trace mind down, it probably goes down in various to
various roots, one of those rootsbeing that I was an immigrant kid that
(22:07):
came to New York City and startedkindergarten here not knowing English, and so
the idea of approval from the teachersor other people became an important element of
my survival in the sense because Ifelt like an outcast. But then you
kind of trace it down, maybeyou could trace it down even further,
you know, you move it intoother areas and you start to realize that,
Oh wait, I'm still influenced bythis motivation almost every day. The
(22:29):
idea of you know, approval frommy wife, the idea of validation from
strangers listening to my podcast, youknow, or being an artist and seeking
approval from people viewing you know,my art and how important in the sense
that is to my identity. Andso yeah, it's it's the unconscious.
Is this constant influence on what ishappening in your daily lives? You made
(22:53):
another point, and I was thinkingthat when you know, I'm in a
professional setting, like at work inthe office and I'm interacting with a colleague
or appear like, you can tellhow a person carries themselves, their actions,
the words they use, the choicesthat they make, and how that
kind of relates to their struggles inlife or challenges that they're trying to overcome
(23:15):
their issues. Right, I'm verycurious when you're looking at another artist work
through your lens as a fellow artist, do you pick up on these points
that you know, maybe it's ata brushstroke or a color or a run
and how the music goes, orjust an image that they're using or a
theme that's reappearing like do you pickup on some of the conscious struggles or
(23:40):
trauma that they may be having intheir psyche. I think at times it
becomes communicated through a piece of work. But I think more importantly the way
I view it, and perhaps otherartists do as well, is that to
be an artist, you're very muchare a conduit of something. Would argue
(24:00):
your conduit of your unconscious and yourculture is unconscious. There's also there's not
only your personal unconscious, it's alsothe unconscious of the collective you belong in,
and it goes even deeper, eventhe unconscious of humanity itself. That's
a different conversation perhaps, but theidea being that m you are always a
(24:22):
conduit for something. Occasionally that you'reyou're just being a conduit for your own
personal perhaps complexes or memories or traumas, and those are expressed and that becomes
obvious. But in other cases,like in the work of this artist hr
Geiger g I g Er, whois very famous for very dark, oppressive
(24:45):
kind of subject matter in his paintings, often showing machine like creatures kind of
subduing humans or being in symbiotic relationshipwith them, and he's doing this in
the seventies, before this was evena thing on our minds. And so
then you're, WHOA, this guymust have been freaked out when he was
a kid. He must be traumatized. But I did it. You know,
I did an episode on in myWriti's biography. He had a great
(25:07):
childhood. None of those things exist. He just he was a conduit for
this kind of message, for thiskind of art. You know, what
about the one artist that you hadon the podcast earlier this year. I
can't remember her name, but she'sthe one to do a performance art where
basically she would hurt herself, right, Marina Abramovich, right right, that's
her. Yes. So I usuallylisten to your podcast earlier in the morning
(25:29):
when I go from my runs.It's a great way to just dive in
and there's no distractions. All I'mfocusing on as the road ahead of me.
And I remember hearing the story andI was turning corners as I was
running my round, I was like, oh my gosh, this poor woman
we get on stage and basically tortureherself, which was a form of her
performance art. Would you associate withher as a person who had trauma?
(25:53):
And this is how she was tryingto express herself. So here's a case
where it does seem like looking ather life and her own way of telling
her life story, that yes,that there was a lot of factors in
her childhood in the oppressive kind ofcommunist regime that she grew up in,
(26:15):
and her her lack of affection andsome being on the receiving end of quite
a bit of abuse from her mother, her physical and emotional distance from her
father. You know, these kindsof factors. Were looking at it as
a biographers, as a potential,you know, armchairst psychologists, You're like,
(26:36):
yeah, that makes sense, thatmakes sense. Why she would,
you know, carve patterns into herstomach with a razorblade during performances to you
know, get herself to bleed infront of an audience. But there are
definitely instances. Yeah, And thisis where you would get my endorsement as
a fan of the Creative Codex podcasthosted by Milos if you were looking for
(26:57):
something different that is out side ofyour normal podcast listening space. You get
a little bit of history, youget a lot of culture, you get
some great storytelling. It's all pulledtogether brilliantly with how he produces it.
This is something you're going to appreciate, creative codec. So I'll make sure
that the link to this podcast isin the show links for this episode.
(27:19):
But I find a lot of thelearning that I do by listening to your
podcast actually helps me in real life, especially with the relationships that I have
with other people. Right well,I did want to mention a very interesting
point about alchemy and how it relatesto Mason and let's see how it's shifted
my perception of it. And becausethese two traditions evolved on parallel paths and
(27:42):
were definitely Masonry is being influenced bythe thoughts and processes of alchemy. There's
an element in alchemy where they workwith these three principles called They call them
salt, mercury, and sulfur,and they just represent the physical compounds.
(28:02):
They represent aspects of reality. Sosalt is the body and the physical element
of anything in front of you.Mercury is the spirit, your spirit,
and all elements of matter have aspirit as well. And then sulfur is
the soul, the person's soul,and all living things plants, soul of
(28:26):
plants, the soul of minerals.So in an alchemist's view, when you're
working with these materials, you're notjust performing actions in the physical realm.
You're also performing in what they callis the subtle realm. And in Masonry,
I believe when we perform our rituals, this is also the realm we're
(28:47):
performing them. This is why somepeople have Masonic dreams in my view,
in my theory, right, sowhen you're performing the ritual, everyone is
in sync and every everything is set, everything is working perfectly, and that's
that's the aim I think we alwaysunconsciously are trying to reach. Is this
(29:08):
idea that the perfection we have inthe ritual is not just for the sake
of perfection, is because we wantthat impact to be felt on an unconscious
level for the for the candidate,but also in the subtle realm, even
more in that area, where asthe alchemists say, the material becomes spirit
and spirit becomes material. So whilepreparing for this episode, I was surprised
(29:33):
to learn that the Red Book wasYoung's personal journal. That's how it started
out, and much like one ofmy favorite stow x Marcus a really as
a Really is was really just recordinghis own thoughts for further inspection and introspection,
where it seems that Young kind ofhad the idea that this could become
a book. So I'm just wondering, you know, do you feel that
(29:57):
Young held back published his journal whilehe was alive because maybe he felt the
content of what he was about toshare it was just too deep, right,
I mean, this is a greatquestion. And the fact that you
know the journal was withheld from publicview or publishing fifty years up to fifty
(30:17):
years after his death speaks to anumber of possible reasons. But from those
who were closest to him, theirexplanation, I think would probably hold the
most weight. And it was avery it was a very pragmatic reason,
and it had to do with thathe knew his stance in the world.
(30:40):
He knew that he was already labeledby fellow colleagues and people who continued to
follow Freud and disregarded Young's ideas.He was labeled as a mystic, and
they used this term, you know, as a pejorative. This wasn't a
positive thing for a psychologist to be, to be a mystic. He was
occasionally even labeled as attempting to starthis own religion, by creating analytical psychology
(31:04):
because of the things that are engagedin this process, including something called active
imagination and forms of meditation and thingslike this and dream analysis. And so
he knew that the potential of peoplethen reading these things that he wrote in
the Red Book, which are thesevisionary meditative moments that he had and that
(31:29):
he translated into writing and art,that would completely confirm all of their horrible
theories. Interesting that you put itthat way, because some would think that
maybe he was holding back his thoughtsbecause maybe he didn't want his legacy to
be tarnished. But it feels thatreally the contributions that he was making his
actual work really helped future generations andonly enlightened or enhanced his prestige. So
(31:57):
I'm kind of hoping that journaling ison its way making a comeback. I
know, for myself personally, inmy office here at home, I keep
a journal of all the conversations Ihave with folks. I definitely journal at
work. I'm a serious note takerthat's been helpful throughout all of my career.
But I'm actually starting a thinking ofdoing more of a personal journal.
Like when I was back in college, I would keep track of my day
(32:20):
to day life, even if itwas just a paragraph, not like a
full page or anything. Has journallybecome something that you are practicing? Yeah,
No, absolutely, I was alreadyjournaling. Let's say a few years
ago. I was already keeping ajournal, and that has multiplied into me
keeping several journals for different purposes.So I have my dream journal, I
(32:45):
filled up one already, I'm onmy second one. I have what might
I call my work journal if I'msomewhere teaching a class and I want to
keep notes of what the structure isof the lessons of the class, of
who the students are, what theirnames are, and such. I have
my my other work journal, whichis specifically for things really related to the
(33:08):
podcast and things I'm pursuing creatively.And I have my esoteric journal, which
I use when I'm exploring and practicingvarious esoteric meditations or spiritual traditions that I
(33:29):
personally follow. And you have tocatalog and you know, transcribe the experience
in a very clear way so thatlater you know, you remember everything that
happened. So yeah, several journalsthat I keep track of now and and
I love it all. Honestly,and I wish I started all of them
sooner. Used to journal in thediary when I was a kid. But
my brother, it has been waytoo long and we are not going to
(33:50):
let more time pass until you comeback on the Craftsman Online podcast again.
I can't say enough. Please visithis podcast, give it a listen Creative
codex Ja Dorian better known as WorshipfulBrother Milos Jesiarski, thanks again for coming
back and being a part of theCraftsman Online podcast. It's been a pleasure
looking forward to the next time.For then, a reminder that you can
(34:12):
listen to future episodes early and addfree with our subscriber offer. Get the
link to start your seven day freetrial in the show notes for this episode.
And if you've enjoyed this podcast andyou want to hear more, you
can tell Siri or Alexa to play. The Craftsman Online podcasts were available on
all streaming platforms, with new episodesevery Monday morning until next time. Let
peace and harmony prevail.
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