February 24, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode, we share some highlights from our January 2025 Craftsmen Online Reading Room. Bro. Jason Short joined RW Michael Arce in this interview with Bro. John Nagy, as we discussed his book, "The Craft Perfected! Actualizing Our Craft."
Show notes:
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Show notes:
- Purchase your copy of "The Craft Perfected" along with other books by Dr. John S. Nagy on Amazon
- Visit the Craftsmen Online website to learn more about our next Reading Room event, New York Masonic History and our Masonic Education blog!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Launch, Concordant Body, Appendant Body, a
Masonic authority, or Craftsman online dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey, welcome back to the only Masonic podcast endorsed by
the Grand Lodge of New York and we love them
for that. This is the Craftsman Online Podcast. I am
your humble host, right worshipful Brother Michael Arse, and you've
joined us for a special edition of the Craftsman Online
reading Room. Just a heads up. Our reading room opened
in late January, and if you want to hear the
full discussion with Brother John Nake, i'd invite you to
(00:52):
head over to our YouTube channel at Craftsman Online. That's
where you can find us on YouTube at Craftsman Online
and be able to watch the whole thing. Plus, it's
a great discussion that provides a fantastic Masonic education. Whether
it's just for you or you'd like to share it
as a special program for your lodge. Hint, hint, hint,
you can find it there on YouTube. Brother John Nagy
(01:13):
his book The Craft Perfected Actualizing Our Craft was the
selection that my co host brother Jason Short selected for
this version of the Reading Room. You can download that
reading material still to this day at craftsman online dot
com just click on the Reading Room. In the craft
Perfected the chapter that we focused on here, John really
(01:34):
gets into the discussion around the perfect Ashler and what
I love about the way you approach things. Can you
share some of your research into the meaning of the
perfect ashlar and how it eventually got incorporated into Masonic ritual.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
The meaning that was used in the eighteen hundreds when
the perfect ashler was sown within ritual, and that happened
about eighteen twelve. It appeared there and it was a
transition because in the seven around seventeen sixty Preston, brother Preston,
he used the term smooth. And what happened was by
(02:13):
eighteen twelve when it finally got put into print. That
being said, it was in the monitor. So I'm not
sharing anything that isn't already out there. What happened between
eighteen twelve and present day is enough. Brothers did not
know the history of the word perfect to understand what
(02:33):
it meant, and as a result, they put their own definition,
their own meaning, and what you hear coming out of
the mouths of many unschooled, only informed, but unschooled brothers,
is that the word perfect relates to flawlessness, and you'll
(02:56):
hear all sorts of comments like, oh, will never be
a perfect ashler, and you know, the perfection is impossible.
Only one person in history has ever been perfect. The
fact of the matter is they're allowing their religious beliefs
and their upbringing to influence the meaning that they put
into the word. They come in with preconceived notions, they
(03:17):
try to make sense out of it rather than investigating
and recognizing them. In the eighteen hundreds that had a
very specific meaning. And when you understand and listen to
our ritual, you understand immediately the connection between what was
intended to be communicated and what is being communicated through ritual,
which is absolutely being ignored by people who have preconceived notions.
(03:42):
It does not mean, or ever has ever meant to
mean flawlessness. It meant something utterly different, And if you
take the time to research it, you understand immediately that
what it is that's being communicated is self defeated. To
our craft. We are supposed to be a perfected ashler
(04:04):
by the time we are in our fellow craft level.
You just take a look at simple things like what
Stonecraft did with a perfect ashler. When it first came
from the quarry, it was roughed, it was a rough ashler,
and they would work on it, which means that as
they were working on it was a common ashlar in
the moment that they perfected it. It was only at
(04:26):
that juncture with they put some sort of mode of
lifting on it to lift it and raise it to
where it is supposed to be put into the building.
But you do not raise an ashlar that's not perfected.
You always raise one that is exactly what you need
(04:47):
for where it's going to fit, because you don't need
to have that stuff being chiseled out and smoothed out
when it finally reaches its destination. So, if you go
back allegorically to what what's going on with our particular
metaphorical representation of all this, if you perfect your ashlar
(05:10):
by doing your entered apprentice work, you thus raise it
by climbing the stairs. And that's how that ashlar actually
gets raised, is by climbing the stairs and studying and
internalizing all the necessary understanding of the seven liberal arts
and sciences. So it is not your brothers who raise you. Technically,
(05:32):
you are supposed to raise yourself, and the raising ceremony
is an acknowledgement, a celebration of the work you did
to raise yourself.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
At that point, I have to admit I was one
of those brothers that almost literally tripped over the perfect
gashlar because of the placement of where.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
It is in law and when it's told to you, like.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
You are the rough ashlar and here's where the perfect
gashlar is, and as you're working your way to the
east and going through all of that, that's an easy
physical mistake to do.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
To be informed, you have to go through the endered
apprentice work and inform yourself as to the nature and
direction that you have to take to get to the
next level. So you have to be informed as a brother,
and then you further inform yourself during the fellowcraft work.
(06:22):
If you actually take the time to climb the stairs
and do the work that is espoused by.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Our ritual, right, you go from being informed to being
well informed. I really love this book in your writing
style really unfolds like an adventure novel. Who's to say
what's right or wrong. Once we get into that level
of speculation, like where does the buck stop and how
(06:50):
do we know when we're approaching the work if we're
properly interpreting what has been put down stone.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Just look at the reality of a Brother Jason. A
cubic stone that's got smooth faces, It's useless for anything
other than a paperweight. It is literally something that does
not belong in a building. If everybody who has ever
worked with a cement knows that a smooth face is
the worst thing you could put cement on, because once
(07:22):
it dries, appeals right off. There's no adhesion whatsoever. Yeah,
so right away it makes no sense whatsoever, right if
you look at standard building practices. But if you look
at the history, you'll notice that the original ashle that
was mentioned in ritual back in sixteen ninety two, I
(07:44):
think it was, was the Purpin to Ashler. And if
you go to Mackie, Mackie basically says that you got
a lot of romantic romance novelers writing about freemasonry, and
each and every one one of them has got absolutely
no credibility whatsoever. They are romanticists, and they want to
(08:06):
believe that their depiction of a perfect square ashlar somehow
a romantic notion that we need to be shooting for.
And yet when you read more, he says, the original
writers who use the word perfect assler meant it exactly
to mean the purpend ashlar. It is a fully informed ashler.
(08:31):
Even if we look at the stone, it's informed. It's
in the perfect shape for it to do the job
that needs to be done. It's suitable for the builder's use.
And the purpend ashlar is like a brick dimension, right,
even it doesn't really.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Be able to build with a perfect cube. I mean,
other than maybe a stone somewhere, it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Counterstones are what are used. But even then they don't
use corner stones that have the height the same as
the width because it's unstable. It does not do a
builder good to have something that height and width and
length are all the same. You must shorten it because
it's construction wise, it is unstable. It is not a
(09:19):
good building practice, unless, of course, you're doing it for
a cornerstone that looks pretty. You know, you want it
to stand out as Oh, look at that pretty stone.
It's nice and glossy and everything, But you know where
the cement is adhering. It's rough. It has to be,
or that puppy once the cement has dried, will slide
(09:40):
very easily out of place. Right, there is no adhesion,
so what you're seeing is a facier, the smooth face,
but the surfaces that are aligned with the other stones.
With a cement is being used at adhesive, it's not.
It's all textured and is purposely textured so that adhesion
occurs so that puppy does not slip out.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
But it's also an interesting symbolic look at us as
people is that we want to project a perfect front,
but we all have somewhat of a rough backside, so
to speak.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
And you're using the word perfect, what you really mean
is flawless. The problem is we use the two words interchangeably,
and when it comes to Masonic practice, we've got to
stop doing that because perfect literally means informed. If you
look throughout our ritual, there are terms inform the tiler,
inform the worship master, inform you you not yet being
(10:37):
fully informed, Your brother who is informed, you know, will
instruct you. And it's all about bringing brothers in mephiction
and informing them as to our practice, our trade and
our path, and until you are at that stage, you're
just a common ashler. And if you never work on
any of it, then you're a rough ashler.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
I threw that little common ash or termine there, because
if you're working on yourself, the work that is involved
at the end apprentice level is specific. You are divesting
your vices and superfluities, and at the same time, because
you can't do that without investing virtue, you are setting
your plum, you are committing within the length of your
(11:20):
cable toe. You are learning time management, emotional management, and
a whole host of other things. And as long as
you're working on that, you're a common ashler. But when
you've worked on it, you've learned how to do it,
and you've mastered that. And yeah, you might have extra
stuff to work on, but when you've mastered the ability
to do all the stuff that you're working on, you've
(11:40):
perfected your ashlar and you're ready now for the fellowcraft.
And if you're learning fellowcraft stuff, you're no longer an
apprentice and you're no longer considered an imperfect ashler because
you're working on a whole different set. You have been
informed now you're going for refinement. That is one of
the most deflating things you can tell brothers that they'll
(12:04):
the work will never get done, the work is always incomplete,
the temple will never be completed. You'll never be a
perfect ashler. We're giving out titles left and right while
we're saying this. You know, here's a fellow here's an
AA title, here's a Fellowcraft title, here's a masturbation. But
you'll never be perfect, right, You'll never be masterful out
(12:25):
in this live here, here's the title. We want you
to wear it, but wink, you're never going to really
earn that title. And it's the most demeaning and deflating
thing to tell our brothers. Hey, if you did your
divestment work and learn how to do that, and you
come across a new one, you still got you still
got to work on that, but you know how to
do it well. You've mastered how to do that. You
(12:47):
got the point where you can identify new ones and
whip those puppies out as fast as you can because
you know how to do it. You've mastered it. And
as far as virtue, when you get your virtues internalized,
you know how to apply. It is set your plumb.
Here's my new priorities, here's my old priorities. How are
they jive? Great, let's move on. And time management, good god,
(13:08):
how many times we have people just they they're master masons,
and they've gone up and they've earned higher titles, and
they're just lousier time management. They've not finished their entered
apprentice work. Which, oh, by the way, we call those
ruffians because they accept things that they haven't earned.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
I think that by pushing off our perfect nature to
some other life or some celestial version of ourself, it
becomes an excuse not to to work daily on yourself
as the ashlar. And you know, some days where a
little our finish is a little bit more polished. Some
days maybe it's a little bit more smooth, maybe it's
(14:11):
a bit rough, for hammered or axed. It's You have
a section later in the book that talks about twenty
different finishes and brings to my own mind that you know,
not every day has to be, you know, a polished surface,
and that's okay. When you're well informed and you can understand,
(14:32):
you can move from our surface understanding to more of
an esoteric understanding of life, which brings me to my
next big question for you, John, is I really admire
this grounded approach to understanding our craft, and through the
progressive investigations the very exoteric meanings of words, you seem
(14:55):
to be able to move to more esoteric understanding and wisdom.
So I'm curious what your definition of exoteric and esoteric
are and where or how does a brother progress from
one understanding to the next. How do we become well informed?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Well, I do an entire hour on the esoterica, etc.
And I talk about the actual reasons for the word,
where it comes from, how it was originally used, how
we choose today, it's used throughout history along with Okay,
how do you know if you're participating in an esoteric
(15:32):
or a pseudo esoteric organization? And there's actually five levels,
and we go through them with you. Very first level,
as you're informed, that's it. You have absolutely no understanding
of what the information is that you're informed about, but
you if asked, you can say, hey, here's the information
I was informed of s Level one. And by the way,
(15:56):
I call these the guard dogs. They don't understand, why
they don't understand, and all they do is follow through
and do exactly what they've been told because they've been
informed that this is important. And you got the second level.
Not only do you have the information, but you've been
told why. Now you may not understand why, but if
(16:17):
anybody ever asks you, well, here's the information, and here's why.
You know the information is being provided. I don't understand why,
but I got the I have the why provided along
with the information the reasoning, well, yeah, yeah, but it's
not the understanding. Why do we salute, Oh, it's the
(16:38):
honor of the worship master? Why why do we not
go between the altar and the worship master? Why do
we not cross that path? But because we were told
that no one should get in, you know, and cross
that path. Right, that's the reason why. It's it's sacred territory.
And of course the thing comes the usual jokes about
(16:58):
laser bearing shark and quick san and lava. But if
you understand why, you start to understand that the three
great lights represents the work that a man should be doing,
the relationships that a man has, and the law he
should be abiding by. Those are the three great lights.
(17:21):
The square literally is the work we do. The compass
represents our relationships with our brothers and others, and the
Holy writ is the law we are abiding by, and
no one in this world should come between you and
your work, your relationships and the law that you want
(17:41):
to abide by. If you have anybody eclipse that, you
should tell him stop that, and you should in turn
not do that to others. Now, by the way, welcome
to level three. You not only have the information, you
understand why you have the white, but you now understand
(18:01):
it's because it symbolically represents what we should not interfere
with in other people's lives or allow other people to
interfere with in our lives. Level three, my brother, So
you not only have the information and you know the why,
but now you understand the why. That's level three. And
(18:26):
there are tidbits sprinkle throughout ritual in the lodge that
people are informed and they've been told why, but they
don't understand you now do, Brother Jason, how's it you're
now lost in thought? How does it feel to be
a level three on that?
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
It feels great, you know, And we ought to be
having that feeling in every single brother that comes through.
They ought to be able to look at that and
just sit back and just digest the joy of that
connection because it's the way we're supposed to be living.
(19:07):
And all it is is a tradition in the lodge
that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever other than, oh, we're
not supposed to do that. But if you understand why,
you realize that's symbolic for how we would live our
lives and not allow people to interfere and not interfere
with others all of a sudden is like holy crow.
(19:28):
Next level, how that little tid did could reshape our fraternity.
I don't know why it's not being shared, so you know,
that's level three. Level four esoteric is you can derive
(19:48):
the understanding and the why. You're now at a place
where you are able to explain to another human being
so that they comprehend the why and understand the why
and only that, but you've just instructed them on how
to instruct others so that the light will go on
(20:11):
in their heart and their spirit. That's level four. You
are literally bringing people up to level three, and if
you're fortunate enough, if they're at level three and they
see how you derived it, they may even even take
the ball and run with it and become a level
(20:33):
four themselves. So level four is deriving the why, and
level five you're deriving new wise, new information, new understanding,
and you're trying to cultivate like a madman of the
(20:57):
level fours and of the level fives, because you're not
going to be around forever, and if there's nobody to
replace you at level five, the craft will go back
into what it normally does, which she's usually operating at
level two maybe level three.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, I think what you just like framed perfectly is
like the role of like a Masonic educator in a
lotch We need more fives because I think I feel
what you're saying is the problem that is in the
craft right now is we have a lot of ones
and twos.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
We do a lot of guard dogs h and unfortunately
there are not enough level fives, nor is there enough
support from the Grand Lodge down on level fives. Level
fives are an unbelievably rare, rare commodity within the craft,
(21:53):
and yet we ought to try to cultivate as many
level fours and level five. I mean literally it should
be our mission because when you get to level four,
you become the kind of master and teacher that the
craft actually is trying to cultivate, and yet most all
(22:14):
of the craft that I've seen are very satisfied with
level one and two.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
And I think a lot of that problem is is
because I always look at freemasonry as kind of like
the practice of freemasonry like one would practice law or
medicine or religion in some instances. But what tends to
happen in certain lodges and the culture is that they're
very happy with practicing the form of masonry that was
taught to them. And if that form doesn't exist for
(22:41):
the input of developing and becoming a teacher or a seeker,
then you're just going to have a bunch of followers
and no leaders.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Which we do. So, Brother Jason, you were asking about
my understanding of esoteric. I was extremely disappointed with the
talks that I heard about esoterica, and when I started
asking myself the question, Okay, here's what they usually share.
(23:14):
Here's a definition of the word, here's a bunch of examples,
and by the way, here's a bunch of organizations that
practice esoteric stuff. Never did I ever hear them tear
this baby apart and explain here are the levels of
esoteric practice. Here are the levels of understanding and how
(23:40):
a person can recognize what organization is esoteric and how
might they be practicing. And if an individual actually is
an esoteric individual, how would you know how would you
be able to evaluate their level of esoteric knowledge. Well,
(24:03):
so what I did was I put together a PowerPoint
for myself so I'd better understand it. And as I
put it all together, I said, Hey, this is something
that I can share with others that helped them bring
themselves up to the understanding that I want to be
talking at that level of understanding. And I gave you
(24:24):
within the last ten to fifteen minutes my best thoughts
an overview of my understanding of esoterica and how it
applies to the craft and the organization itself.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I'm going to use my engineering skills here, brother John.
We started the conversation with the three columns. The focus
for the reading selection is around the perfect ashler. I
want to kind of enter one more thing that exists
in that first degree because we're kind of in that
EA discussion level here. How does this relate to living
(25:18):
stones and the idea of perfecting our minds to be
living stones and lodges?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
The very first thing that has to be understood has
to do with the lessons that are actually intended. What
are they? And the lesson is that at the level
that we're talking about the perfect Ashler, we're talking about
bringing order to the chaos of your heart.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
It is.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Self mastery. You are working on bringing yourself from childhood
into adulthood and you're maturing yourself. You're putting childish things aside,
and what you were doing is doing all the work
(26:09):
that is necessary to bring you to adulthood. How do
we know this, It's laced throughout our ritual. We are
the first three steps are emblematic of a childhood, manhood,
an age. Well, moving from the EA to fellowcraft is
(26:33):
moving from childhood or youth to manhood adulthood, and that
lays the foundation for your temple. And it's really interesting
because it's the first stage of your development. You must
(26:54):
create a foundation because the second stage is, now that
you've brought order to the chaos of your part, you
now have to bring order to the chaos of your mind.
You're thinking your head, and that's the fellowcraft work you
prepare to learn at the EA level, and it is
learning how to learn at the fellowcraft level. And it's interesting.
(27:17):
As you lay your foundation, you're not working with just
one ashler. We use the idiom of the perfect ashler
to denote the member. However, as you're doing work on yourself,
you are putting several ashlers down as a foundation. One
(27:39):
foundation is setting your plum. The second foundation, part stone,
is having to do with vices and superfluities, divesting them,
and you've got to do that in tandem with your
virtue building. Your working tools depend on all this work
to be done. And as you internalize, by the way,
you must internalize sel seventeen working tools to get through
(28:03):
the perfecting stage. If you go through the entire INTERD
Apprentice degree, there are literally seventeen working tools that help
you do the work to perfect your ashler and bring
yourself up to adulthood or manhood. At the fellowcraft level,
we're talking about other ashlers that you put down upon
(28:24):
the foundation of the INTERDA apprentice work. And all these
astlers are internalized as you are working on yourself at
whatever level you're working at. And since there all represents
symbolic ashlars, we become an array, literally a living network
(28:45):
of stones. That have been internalized. We refer to it
as a living stone, but is a multitude of each
and every one of those stones that we internalized, the virtues,
the setting, the plum, the understanding of time management and
emotional management, the understanding of grammar, logic and rhetoric in
(29:05):
that order, by the way, and then we go through
the quadrivium, and each of these we internalize the rules,
the understanding how to use it, how to apply that
right there prepares us to understand the Master's word, and
that in lays the connection between the astras that we
(29:27):
talk about in ritual and us as living stones to
erect that spiritual building that is agreeable to God's rules
and designs as laid out in the great books of
Nature and Revelation. I hope that helps.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Hey, just a reminder if you've enjoyed this special edition
of the Craftsmen Online reading Room in our podcast, you'd
enjoy the full thing on our YouTube channel at Craftsmen Online.
You can also view the whole catalog of past reading
room and share them with other brothers. Or it is
a great idea of program for your launch. This is
right worship for Brother Michael Ars. If you've enjoyed this
episode of a Craftsmen online podcast. You can over hold
(30:09):
up that player, follow us on Spotify, and subscribe on
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Until next time, Let peace and harmony prevail.
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Launch, Concordant Body, Appendant Body, a
Masonic authority, or Craftsman online dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey, welcome back to the only Masonic podcast endorsed by
the Grand Lodge of New York and we love them
for that. This is the Craftsman Online Podcast. I am
your humble host, right worshipful Brother Michael Arse, and you've
joined us for a special edition of the Craftsman Online
reading Room. Just a heads up. Our reading room opened
in late January, and if you want to hear the
full discussion with Brother John Nake, i'd invite you to
(00:52):
head over to our YouTube channel at Craftsman Online. That's
where you can find us on YouTube at Craftsman Online
and be able to watch the whole thing. Plus, it's
a great discussion that provides a fantastic Masonic education. Whether
it's just for you or you'd like to share it
as a special program for your lodge. Hint, hint, hint,
you can find it there on YouTube. Brother John Nagy
(01:13):
his book The Craft Perfected Actualizing Our Craft was the
selection that my co host brother Jason Short selected for
this version of the Reading Room. You can download that
reading material still to this day at craftsman online dot
com just click on the Reading Room. In the craft
Perfected the chapter that we focused on here, John really
(01:34):
gets into the discussion around the perfect Ashler and what
I love about the way you approach things. Can you
share some of your research into the meaning of the
perfect ashlar and how it eventually got incorporated into Masonic ritual.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
The meaning that was used in the eighteen hundreds when
the perfect ashler was sown within ritual, and that happened
about eighteen twelve. It appeared there and it was a
transition because in the seven around seventeen sixty Preston, brother Preston,
he used the term smooth. And what happened was by
(02:13):
eighteen twelve when it finally got put into print. That
being said, it was in the monitor. So I'm not
sharing anything that isn't already out there. What happened between
eighteen twelve and present day is enough. Brothers did not
know the history of the word perfect to understand what
(02:33):
it meant, and as a result, they put their own definition,
their own meaning, and what you hear coming out of
the mouths of many unschooled, only informed, but unschooled brothers,
is that the word perfect relates to flawlessness, and you'll
(02:56):
hear all sorts of comments like, oh, will never be
a perfect ashler, and you know, the perfection is impossible.
Only one person in history has ever been perfect. The
fact of the matter is they're allowing their religious beliefs
and their upbringing to influence the meaning that they put
into the word. They come in with preconceived notions, they
(03:17):
try to make sense out of it rather than investigating
and recognizing them. In the eighteen hundreds that had a
very specific meaning. And when you understand and listen to
our ritual, you understand immediately the connection between what was
intended to be communicated and what is being communicated through ritual,
which is absolutely being ignored by people who have preconceived notions.
(03:42):
It does not mean, or ever has ever meant to
mean flawlessness. It meant something utterly different, And if you
take the time to research it, you understand immediately that
what it is that's being communicated is self defeated. To
our craft. We are supposed to be a perfected ashler
(04:04):
by the time we are in our fellow craft level.
You just take a look at simple things like what
Stonecraft did with a perfect ashler. When it first came
from the quarry, it was roughed, it was a rough ashler,
and they would work on it, which means that as
they were working on it was a common ashlar in
the moment that they perfected it. It was only at
(04:26):
that juncture with they put some sort of mode of
lifting on it to lift it and raise it to
where it is supposed to be put into the building.
But you do not raise an ashlar that's not perfected.
You always raise one that is exactly what you need
(04:47):
for where it's going to fit, because you don't need
to have that stuff being chiseled out and smoothed out
when it finally reaches its destination. So, if you go
back allegorically to what what's going on with our particular
metaphorical representation of all this, if you perfect your ashlar
(05:10):
by doing your entered apprentice work, you thus raise it
by climbing the stairs. And that's how that ashlar actually
gets raised, is by climbing the stairs and studying and
internalizing all the necessary understanding of the seven liberal arts
and sciences. So it is not your brothers who raise you. Technically,
(05:32):
you are supposed to raise yourself, and the raising ceremony
is an acknowledgement, a celebration of the work you did
to raise yourself.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
At that point, I have to admit I was one
of those brothers that almost literally tripped over the perfect
gashlar because of the placement of where.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
It is in law and when it's told to you, like.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
You are the rough ashlar and here's where the perfect
gashlar is, and as you're working your way to the
east and going through all of that, that's an easy
physical mistake to do.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
To be informed, you have to go through the endered
apprentice work and inform yourself as to the nature and
direction that you have to take to get to the
next level. So you have to be informed as a brother,
and then you further inform yourself during the fellowcraft work.
(06:22):
If you actually take the time to climb the stairs
and do the work that is espoused by.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Our ritual, right, you go from being informed to being
well informed. I really love this book in your writing
style really unfolds like an adventure novel. Who's to say
what's right or wrong. Once we get into that level
of speculation, like where does the buck stop and how
(06:50):
do we know when we're approaching the work if we're
properly interpreting what has been put down stone.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Just look at the reality of a Brother Jason. A
cubic stone that's got smooth faces, It's useless for anything
other than a paperweight. It is literally something that does
not belong in a building. If everybody who has ever
worked with a cement knows that a smooth face is
the worst thing you could put cement on, because once
(07:22):
it dries, appeals right off. There's no adhesion whatsoever. Yeah,
so right away it makes no sense whatsoever, right if
you look at standard building practices. But if you look
at the history, you'll notice that the original ashle that
was mentioned in ritual back in sixteen ninety two, I
(07:44):
think it was, was the Purpin to Ashler. And if
you go to Mackie, Mackie basically says that you got
a lot of romantic romance novelers writing about freemasonry, and
each and every one one of them has got absolutely
no credibility whatsoever. They are romanticists, and they want to
(08:06):
believe that their depiction of a perfect square ashlar somehow
a romantic notion that we need to be shooting for.
And yet when you read more, he says, the original
writers who use the word perfect assler meant it exactly
to mean the purpend ashlar. It is a fully informed ashler.
(08:31):
Even if we look at the stone, it's informed. It's
in the perfect shape for it to do the job
that needs to be done. It's suitable for the builder's use.
And the purpend ashlar is like a brick dimension, right,
even it doesn't really.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Be able to build with a perfect cube. I mean,
other than maybe a stone somewhere, it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Counterstones are what are used. But even then they don't
use corner stones that have the height the same as
the width because it's unstable. It does not do a
builder good to have something that height and width and
length are all the same. You must shorten it because
it's construction wise, it is unstable. It is not a
(09:19):
good building practice, unless, of course, you're doing it for
a cornerstone that looks pretty. You know, you want it
to stand out as Oh, look at that pretty stone.
It's nice and glossy and everything, But you know where
the cement is adhering. It's rough. It has to be,
or that puppy once the cement has dried, will slide
(09:40):
very easily out of place. Right, there is no adhesion,
so what you're seeing is a facier, the smooth face,
but the surfaces that are aligned with the other stones.
With a cement is being used at adhesive, it's not.
It's all textured and is purposely textured so that adhesion
occurs so that puppy does not slip out.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
But it's also an interesting symbolic look at us as
people is that we want to project a perfect front,
but we all have somewhat of a rough backside, so
to speak.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
And you're using the word perfect, what you really mean
is flawless. The problem is we use the two words interchangeably,
and when it comes to Masonic practice, we've got to
stop doing that because perfect literally means informed. If you
look throughout our ritual, there are terms inform the tiler,
inform the worship master, inform you you not yet being
(10:37):
fully informed, Your brother who is informed, you know, will
instruct you. And it's all about bringing brothers in mephiction
and informing them as to our practice, our trade and
our path, and until you are at that stage, you're
just a common ashler. And if you never work on
any of it, then you're a rough ashler.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
I threw that little common ash or termine there, because
if you're working on yourself, the work that is involved
at the end apprentice level is specific. You are divesting
your vices and superfluities, and at the same time, because
you can't do that without investing virtue, you are setting
your plum, you are committing within the length of your
(11:20):
cable toe. You are learning time management, emotional management, and
a whole host of other things. And as long as
you're working on that, you're a common ashler. But when
you've worked on it, you've learned how to do it,
and you've mastered that. And yeah, you might have extra
stuff to work on, but when you've mastered the ability
to do all the stuff that you're working on, you've
(11:40):
perfected your ashlar and you're ready now for the fellowcraft.
And if you're learning fellowcraft stuff, you're no longer an
apprentice and you're no longer considered an imperfect ashler because
you're working on a whole different set. You have been
informed now you're going for refinement. That is one of
the most deflating things you can tell brothers that they'll
(12:04):
the work will never get done, the work is always incomplete,
the temple will never be completed. You'll never be a
perfect ashler. We're giving out titles left and right while
we're saying this. You know, here's a fellow here's an
AA title, here's a Fellowcraft title, here's a masturbation. But
you'll never be perfect, right, You'll never be masterful out
(12:25):
in this live here, here's the title. We want you
to wear it, but wink, you're never going to really
earn that title. And it's the most demeaning and deflating
thing to tell our brothers. Hey, if you did your
divestment work and learn how to do that, and you
come across a new one, you still got you still
got to work on that, but you know how to
do it well. You've mastered how to do that. You
(12:47):
got the point where you can identify new ones and
whip those puppies out as fast as you can because
you know how to do it. You've mastered it. And
as far as virtue, when you get your virtues internalized,
you know how to apply. It is set your plumb.
Here's my new priorities, here's my old priorities. How are
they jive? Great, let's move on. And time management, good god,
(13:08):
how many times we have people just they they're master masons,
and they've gone up and they've earned higher titles, and
they're just lousier time management. They've not finished their entered
apprentice work. Which, oh, by the way, we call those
ruffians because they accept things that they haven't earned.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
I think that by pushing off our perfect nature to
some other life or some celestial version of ourself, it
becomes an excuse not to to work daily on yourself
as the ashlar. And you know, some days where a
little our finish is a little bit more polished. Some
days maybe it's a little bit more smooth, maybe it's
(14:11):
a bit rough, for hammered or axed. It's You have
a section later in the book that talks about twenty
different finishes and brings to my own mind that you know,
not every day has to be, you know, a polished surface,
and that's okay. When you're well informed and you can understand,
(14:32):
you can move from our surface understanding to more of
an esoteric understanding of life, which brings me to my
next big question for you, John, is I really admire
this grounded approach to understanding our craft, and through the
progressive investigations the very exoteric meanings of words, you seem
(14:55):
to be able to move to more esoteric understanding and wisdom.
So I'm curious what your definition of exoteric and esoteric
are and where or how does a brother progress from
one understanding to the next. How do we become well informed?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Well, I do an entire hour on the esoterica, etc.
And I talk about the actual reasons for the word,
where it comes from, how it was originally used, how
we choose today, it's used throughout history along with Okay,
how do you know if you're participating in an esoteric
(15:32):
or a pseudo esoteric organization? And there's actually five levels,
and we go through them with you. Very first level,
as you're informed, that's it. You have absolutely no understanding
of what the information is that you're informed about, but
you if asked, you can say, hey, here's the information
I was informed of s Level one. And by the way,
(15:56):
I call these the guard dogs. They don't understand, why
they don't understand, and all they do is follow through
and do exactly what they've been told because they've been
informed that this is important. And you got the second level.
Not only do you have the information, but you've been
told why. Now you may not understand why, but if
(16:17):
anybody ever asks you, well, here's the information, and here's why.
You know the information is being provided. I don't understand why,
but I got the I have the why provided along
with the information the reasoning, well, yeah, yeah, but it's
not the understanding. Why do we salute, Oh, it's the
(16:38):
honor of the worship master? Why why do we not
go between the altar and the worship master? Why do
we not cross that path? But because we were told
that no one should get in, you know, and cross
that path. Right, that's the reason why. It's it's sacred territory.
And of course the thing comes the usual jokes about
(16:58):
laser bearing shark and quick san and lava. But if
you understand why, you start to understand that the three
great lights represents the work that a man should be doing,
the relationships that a man has, and the law he
should be abiding by. Those are the three great lights.
(17:21):
The square literally is the work we do. The compass
represents our relationships with our brothers and others, and the
Holy writ is the law we are abiding by, and
no one in this world should come between you and
your work, your relationships and the law that you want
(17:41):
to abide by. If you have anybody eclipse that, you
should tell him stop that, and you should in turn
not do that to others. Now, by the way, welcome
to level three. You not only have the information, you
understand why you have the white, but you now understand
(18:01):
it's because it symbolically represents what we should not interfere
with in other people's lives or allow other people to
interfere with in our lives. Level three, my brother, So
you not only have the information and you know the why,
but now you understand the why. That's level three. And
(18:26):
there are tidbits sprinkle throughout ritual in the lodge that
people are informed and they've been told why, but they
don't understand you now do, Brother Jason, how's it you're
now lost in thought? How does it feel to be
a level three on that?
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
It feels great, you know, And we ought to be
having that feeling in every single brother that comes through.
They ought to be able to look at that and
just sit back and just digest the joy of that
connection because it's the way we're supposed to be living.
(19:07):
And all it is is a tradition in the lodge
that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever other than, oh, we're
not supposed to do that. But if you understand why,
you realize that's symbolic for how we would live our
lives and not allow people to interfere and not interfere
with others all of a sudden is like holy crow.
(19:28):
Next level, how that little tid did could reshape our fraternity.
I don't know why it's not being shared, so you know,
that's level three. Level four esoteric is you can derive
(19:48):
the understanding and the why. You're now at a place
where you are able to explain to another human being
so that they comprehend the why and understand the why
and only that, but you've just instructed them on how
to instruct others so that the light will go on
(20:11):
in their heart and their spirit. That's level four. You
are literally bringing people up to level three, and if
you're fortunate enough, if they're at level three and they
see how you derived it, they may even even take
the ball and run with it and become a level
(20:33):
four themselves. So level four is deriving the why, and
level five you're deriving new wise, new information, new understanding,
and you're trying to cultivate like a madman of the
(20:57):
level fours and of the level fives, because you're not
going to be around forever, and if there's nobody to
replace you at level five, the craft will go back
into what it normally does, which she's usually operating at
level two maybe level three.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, I think what you just like framed perfectly is
like the role of like a Masonic educator in a
lotch We need more fives because I think I feel
what you're saying is the problem that is in the
craft right now is we have a lot of ones
and twos.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
We do a lot of guard dogs h and unfortunately
there are not enough level fives, nor is there enough
support from the Grand Lodge down on level fives. Level
fives are an unbelievably rare, rare commodity within the craft,
(21:53):
and yet we ought to try to cultivate as many
level fours and level five. I mean literally it should
be our mission because when you get to level four,
you become the kind of master and teacher that the
craft actually is trying to cultivate, and yet most all
(22:14):
of the craft that I've seen are very satisfied with
level one and two.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
And I think a lot of that problem is is
because I always look at freemasonry as kind of like
the practice of freemasonry like one would practice law or
medicine or religion in some instances. But what tends to
happen in certain lodges and the culture is that they're
very happy with practicing the form of masonry that was
taught to them. And if that form doesn't exist for
(22:41):
the input of developing and becoming a teacher or a seeker,
then you're just going to have a bunch of followers
and no leaders.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Which we do. So, Brother Jason, you were asking about
my understanding of esoteric. I was extremely disappointed with the
talks that I heard about esoterica, and when I started
asking myself the question, Okay, here's what they usually share.
(23:14):
Here's a definition of the word, here's a bunch of examples,
and by the way, here's a bunch of organizations that
practice esoteric stuff. Never did I ever hear them tear
this baby apart and explain here are the levels of
esoteric practice. Here are the levels of understanding and how
(23:40):
a person can recognize what organization is esoteric and how
might they be practicing. And if an individual actually is
an esoteric individual, how would you know how would you
be able to evaluate their level of esoteric knowledge. Well,
(24:03):
so what I did was I put together a PowerPoint
for myself so I'd better understand it. And as I
put it all together, I said, Hey, this is something
that I can share with others that helped them bring
themselves up to the understanding that I want to be
talking at that level of understanding. And I gave you
(24:24):
within the last ten to fifteen minutes my best thoughts
an overview of my understanding of esoterica and how it
applies to the craft and the organization itself.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I'm going to use my engineering skills here, brother John.
We started the conversation with the three columns. The focus
for the reading selection is around the perfect ashler. I
want to kind of enter one more thing that exists
in that first degree because we're kind of in that
EA discussion level here. How does this relate to living
(25:18):
stones and the idea of perfecting our minds to be
living stones and lodges?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
The very first thing that has to be understood has
to do with the lessons that are actually intended. What
are they? And the lesson is that at the level
that we're talking about the perfect Ashler, we're talking about
bringing order to the chaos of your heart.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
It is.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Self mastery. You are working on bringing yourself from childhood
into adulthood and you're maturing yourself. You're putting childish things aside,
and what you were doing is doing all the work
(26:09):
that is necessary to bring you to adulthood. How do
we know this, It's laced throughout our ritual. We are
the first three steps are emblematic of a childhood, manhood,
an age. Well, moving from the EA to fellowcraft is
(26:33):
moving from childhood or youth to manhood adulthood, and that
lays the foundation for your temple. And it's really interesting
because it's the first stage of your development. You must
(26:54):
create a foundation because the second stage is, now that
you've brought order to the chaos of your part, you
now have to bring order to the chaos of your mind.
You're thinking your head, and that's the fellowcraft work you
prepare to learn at the EA level, and it is
learning how to learn at the fellowcraft level. And it's interesting.
(27:17):
As you lay your foundation, you're not working with just
one ashler. We use the idiom of the perfect ashler
to denote the member. However, as you're doing work on yourself,
you are putting several ashlers down as a foundation. One
(27:39):
foundation is setting your plum. The second foundation, part stone,
is having to do with vices and superfluities, divesting them,
and you've got to do that in tandem with your
virtue building. Your working tools depend on all this work
to be done. And as you internalize, by the way,
you must internalize sel seventeen working tools to get through
(28:03):
the perfecting stage. If you go through the entire INTERD
Apprentice degree, there are literally seventeen working tools that help
you do the work to perfect your ashler and bring
yourself up to adulthood or manhood. At the fellowcraft level,
we're talking about other ashlers that you put down upon
(28:24):
the foundation of the INTERDA apprentice work. And all these
astlers are internalized as you are working on yourself at
whatever level you're working at. And since there all represents
symbolic ashlars, we become an array, literally a living network
(28:45):
of stones. That have been internalized. We refer to it
as a living stone, but is a multitude of each
and every one of those stones that we internalized, the virtues,
the setting, the plum, the understanding of time management and
emotional management, the understanding of grammar, logic and rhetoric in
(29:05):
that order, by the way, and then we go through
the quadrivium, and each of these we internalize the rules,
the understanding how to use it, how to apply that
right there prepares us to understand the Master's word, and
that in lays the connection between the astras that we
(29:27):
talk about in ritual and us as living stones to
erect that spiritual building that is agreeable to God's rules
and designs as laid out in the great books of
Nature and Revelation. I hope that helps.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Hey, just a reminder if you've enjoyed this special edition
of the Craftsmen Online reading Room in our podcast, you'd
enjoy the full thing on our YouTube channel at Craftsmen Online.
You can also view the whole catalog of past reading
room and share them with other brothers. Or it is
a great idea of program for your launch. This is
right worship for Brother Michael Ars. If you've enjoyed this
episode of a Craftsmen online podcast. You can over hold
(30:09):
up that player, follow us on Spotify, and subscribe on
Apple Podcasts to get the latest episode every Monday morning.
Until next time, Let peace and harmony prevail.
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