September 1, 2025 • 38 mins
We’re going inside Hermann Hesse's timeless classic, 'Siddhartha,' with Bro. Jonathan Kopel as our guide. We'll explore Siddhartha's journey of self-discovery, examining themes of enlightenment, the search for truth, and the nature of wisdom. Through the lens of Masonic philosophy, we'll uncover the symbolic parallels between Siddhartha's path and the ancient teachings of the Craft. Discover how the river of life, the pursuit of knowledge, and the importance of inner experience resonate with both Hesse's narrative and the principles of Freemasonry.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:26):
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Speaker 1 (00:54):
Hey, welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcasts, the only
Masonic podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York.
I'm your host that right worship of Brother Michael Arsay,
and this week we're tackling a really cool tradition. It's
a book that explores the search for enlightenment. It's a
really cool novel. It's called Sidhartha by Herman Hess who
(01:14):
is a brother by the way. It's confusing at times
because if you know the story of the Buddha, a
lot of Sidhartha's journey does kind of weave into that story,
mainly when he's exploring the paths, the pursuits, and ultimately
his own self discovery journey into the river of wisdom.
Don't worry, we're going to get into all of these
(01:35):
themes with our guests this week, but I just wanted
to give some background on the book in case you're
unfamiliar as we Welcome back, brother Jonathan Kopple, who has
also written an article on this book at craftsman online
dot com. Right there in the blog or open up
the notes for this episode. Welcome back to the podcast,
brother Jonathan.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Get to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I would have never ever discovered this book or Herman
Hess if it hadn't been for you. This is one
of those things that was just completely off my radar.
I was so fascinated one getting your input on the book,
and we'll get into that. And it is a quick
page turner, but also kind of the story of Herman Hesse.
(02:14):
He is a brother. This book was written back in
nineteen twenty two. It came after he traveled to Srilinka
and Indonesia, and was really inspired by that trip before
World War One, kind of like you. I found that
there's a parallel here. This was a guy at a
certain point in his life, Herman Hess, who was on
his own spiritual quest. And I know a lot of
(02:34):
the conversations that you and I have shared personally and
also here on the podcast, you know, are the parallels
of lessons of freemasonry and how to apply that in
our spiritual life. I'm just curious, how did you discover
this book and what did you get out of it.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
It was more of a happenstance that I came across.
In fact, to be type in Siddartha online, the book
won't even show up most of the time, because most
people will read Siddartha and go to the Buddha and
read the entire history of the Buddha and go to Buddhism.
But if you type in said Dartha, you actually have
to type in his full name the author, because of
(03:10):
that overlap between it. So I'm not surprised I never
came across it, But when I reached out to other
mentors of mine, it turns out that people that are
I would say more humanities and more literature inclined are
very familiar with this book.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
And it's not the thickest book that's out there, which
is good. So if you're just looking for kind of
a quick page turner, a light read, you'll dig this.
And I think a lot of readers are going to
kind of stumble into it the same way I did
and go, wait, is this the story of the Buddha
that's happening here?
Speaker 3 (03:42):
That was my initial thought because I've read the book
and I admittedly thought, oh, and am I already going
to know what's going to happen in the story? And
oddly enough, it completely turns the story on its head.
In fact, what stood out to me was how the
main character in the story, so Dartha, turns out to
(04:02):
have his own disagreements with the Buddha and with different
characters in the book, and it becomes more of his
personal journey. Rather than saying, oh, the Buddha was completely right,
it's more of saying, well, what if the Buddha is wrong? Like,
how do I figure out what is true based on
(04:23):
my life experiences and the journey that I'm on and
not clinging to what one person is saying, even if
they might be right on the law different points. I
thought that dialogue was very poignant for a lot of
the discussions I've had with other Masons in the lodge,
as well as some of the themes within freemasonry as a whole.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
We covered you know what drew you into it. We
teased a little bit that there's parallels between Sidhartha and
the story of the Buddha, which they're not connected. They're
not related, it's just the author has was kind of
borrowing and inspired by some of those themes. If you
could give us, like your snapshot of what this story
(05:03):
is all about.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I would say, imagine if said Dartha instead of trying
to find enlightenment through the classic Buddhist perception. Instead, this
character is more about arguing with the Buddha and having
their own journey of discovery and finding what is the
(05:25):
common theme that matters amongst all these different faiths and traditions,
What is it that really resonates amongst them all. That's
the way I would sort of describe the story.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
One of the themes that I saw as a takeaway was
the idea that wisdom can't be taught, that life experiences
are that that have to be experienced, and that's what
this character decided to do, was kind of what you're
pointing to. Instead of reading the classic teachings or the
ancient mysteries or the wisdom that existed at that time,
he was like, well, you know what, the best way
to do this is to go just do it. Do
(05:58):
you find that to be kind of an interesting or
maybe even profound statement for somebody kind of your age,
at your life, starting in your career and also getting
started in your Masonic career as.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Well, maybe a few years ago and may have said that,
I think that the more that I've experienced within my profession,
especially coming to DC and learning from the different lodges too,
I think it's been more emphasized on practicing that. But
I think it takes a lot of mentorship and guidance
to learn. Not necessarily. I don't want to say how
(06:32):
to do it, like there's a formula that if you
do it this way, it's to give you all the
answers or or whatnot. But I think the most important
lesson is learning the process by which you do That
is the most important thing, rather than saying this is
the right way it's what process gives you this certain
outcome that you're looking for, or what you're really trying
to understand. And I think that really reading this book
(06:54):
was more of an emphasis on that same journey of
not only understanding why knowing yourself is important, but also
understanding how people can get drawn to different directions that
aren't necessarily wrong, but they're less difficult, but they sort
of avoid the fundamental existential questions that take a lot
(07:16):
of effort in time. And I would even argue some
discomfort in the sense of being exposed to things that
really challenge your perceptions and your own beliefs and being
able to come to terms with that discomfort.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
One of the themes in the book is You kind
of touched on was the concept of seeking, and it
got me thinking of one of our early Masonic truth seekers,
brother Manly P. Hall, who wrote Encyclopedias literally about his
search for light. How do you find that concept of
Sidhartha always seeking, going out, living aligning. Do you see
(07:57):
that at all with your Masonic journey?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
I would say yes, I think mine wasn't intentional. I
think it was more of I think looking at it
was being curious, but also sincere, because I think there's
people that can be curious but insincere, and they don't
necessarily go together. In other words, I think that what
(08:21):
it took for me was following my natural inclination to
learn and understand, but then finding other people within the
lodge or outside that could guide that in directions that
I didn't expect Nora really understood until I started reading
and reflecting on things myself, and I think the benefit
(08:41):
of what they did was they didn't say, read this
book because it will tell you this. It was read
this book and let me know what you think. Pointing
the direction, but then letting yourself be able to take
time to think about it within your own life and circumstances.
I think gives the best out come with not forcing
(09:01):
an interpretation, but allowing you to find what you need
to learn at your particular stage. And I think that's
maybe the biggest lesson I've learned, is that Ruth is
sometimes there in front of you, but you're not able
to see it because you're not ready to understand it,
because you're still dealing with other things that are as
(09:24):
important but not necessarily what you need at that moment.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Throughout the story, Sidhartha and I can already see in
their parallel Here he encounters a lot of different teachers
and paths. And you know, one of the things I
loved about this book is that the Joseph Campbell, you know,
Hero of a Thousand Journeys, that hero arc is somewhat familiar. Here.
There's that structure that we get. But then there's also
(09:48):
just like the concept of various teachers and paths, and
I immediately started thinking of Okay, obviously, there's the path
that you follow to knock on the first Masonic lodge
that you want to seek to become a member of.
There's steps that you take through our ritual when you're
doing the obligations and going through the degrees, and then
there's everything that happens after that, like the true paths
(10:08):
of enlightenment that begin to present themselves once you become
a master Mason. That one I can understand it. How
about the various teachers? Can you speak to that like
the important role of mentors and how they help Sidhartha
through his journey.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
It's interesting because Siddartha, unlike the other characters, starts out
initially looking for I wouldn't say a mentor, but some guidance.
In other words, he's looking for a group of people
or someone to give him some answer. And he goes
(10:44):
to the aesthetics initially in the story, and he goes
with a friend of his, and through all that he
becomes more disenchanted with it because he realizes that their
own philosophical system is never ending. There's never really a
solid answer. It becomes sort of this, uh, you could
(11:05):
even say philosophically, it's more of, you know, it is
a redundant answer in that the question gives an answer
that then goes back and it just it's circular reasoning almost,
And he wasn't satisfied. He's not satisfied with that. And
as he goes along the journey and meets initially at
one point he sees the Buddha his friend was, you know,
(11:29):
becomes drawn to and says, well, I want to follow this.
This is the path that will lead me to where
I need to go. And the Buddha has that same discussion.
He's like, do you want to stay? And the conversation
that really stood out to me was the line where
he tells the Buddha, if I stay with you, my
fear is I will lose myself and I will no
longer be who I am and what I need to learn.
(11:53):
And that was kind of counterintuitive for the Buddha. He
wasn't expecting that answer, But it was the idea that
if I became your student, I would be trying to
learn your truth, but it wouldn't necessarily be the truth
that I need to learn for what I was here
to learn. In other words, it would be I'm learning
something that is important and probably true, but it's not
(12:17):
the truth that I need to learn myself and the
one that probably other people need to learn. But it's
not something that this teacher can give me. It's something
that I have to experience in my own life and
story rather than trying to follow the story of another
person to give me that meaning. And I think that
was an interesting theme for a person in the eighteen
(12:40):
hundreds to actually write this at that time in the
culture he was originally from. I thought that was very
interesting on how he had that insight into himself as
well as the underlying story that he was trying to
tell within Sadartha.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Hey, it's right worship for Brother Michael Lars. Before you
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(13:26):
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(13:47):
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(14:08):
let's make this happen. Looking at this through the Masonic
lens and the way that we structure a lot of
(14:30):
our Masonic education, especially when it's the portion of you
go in, you take your first degree, here's what you
need to know about that so that you can get
passed and take your Fellowcraft degree, so that you can
eventually go through that and then become race to the
sublime degree of Master Mason. There's nothing, officially, I would say,
across all of the jurisdictions that we say, oh, you
(14:51):
must do this. You must each lodge, and each jurisdiction
has its own way of providing that path of education.
But there are key things that we touch on which
I think are really interesting. And that's the part that
got to me masonically speaking. It's that, yeah, you can
work with a mentor who can help you work on
(15:12):
your catechism so that you can you know, prove up
and go from an EA to a Fellowcraft degree. Fantastic.
But then you're going to interact with another brother in
the lodge who may not present himself as a mentor
or a teacher, but he could be, you know, parallel
to what said Heartha was looking for somebody with some
experience and they could talk about something completely different, and
(15:34):
that first degree or that second degree or even the
third degree wasn't on your radar because it wasn't the
quote unquote prescribed learning you know lesson that you were
going through at that time. And that's when you're just like, Wow,
I feel like I just got a gem. I feel
like I just discovered a treasure chest full of new ideas.
Like there's this energy that comes. And that's one of
(15:56):
the things I like to hear you talk about is
you've travel a lot now as a new master Mason
who've been doing this for a few years, and you're
coming across and meeting all these new brothers with all
these new ideas. How is that changing or enhancing or
improving or how's that affecting your path that you're walking.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
I think it's given me a lot more to learn.
I think that it's more of an awareness of how
each person you meet teaches you by simply being themselves
a lot of lessons or even skills, or I would
even say, more of an awareness of areas to improve
(16:37):
on that you wouldn't otherwise learn within your own group
of people that you commonly associate with. The problem is,
what I've noticed is that the more that you become
silent into your profession. It inherently limits your perceptions and
you start to have this idea or this belief that
(17:00):
your perspective almost encompasses everything. That you view everything through
that one lens. You almost restrict yourself and your ability
to not only look at things from a different perspective,
but looking at it from a wider range to where
you can accurately assess what you're seeing. So if, for instance,
(17:20):
if all I ever associated myself was around other people
within my field, then would have I wouldn't meet people
in the lodge that were lawyers, people that were government officials,
people that were writers, people who are artists. You wouldn't
have the full spectrum of people to learn from. And
based on my experience, the benefit of the lodge as
(17:41):
a whole is that you are not only exposed to
a white group of people, but you're able to learn
from their individual journeys that have changed throughout time and
lessons that they've learned.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
We're going inside hermann Has's timeless classic, Saidhartha with brother
Jonathan Copple on this episode to the Craftsman Online podcast.
You'll notice that the title for this one talks about
the River of Wisdom and we're going to get into
some of the symbolism that can be found inside this book,
and again how that overlays with Masonic lessons. The river
plays a crucial symbolic role in this book. How do
(18:16):
you see the concept of stream of tradition or flow
of knowledge that gets mentioned connecting with Freemasonry?
Speaker 3 (18:25):
That I think is a good question. I would say
that if you took the ritual as is without context,
I don't think you would have that perception initially for
different reasons. I think that the flow of all these
different things, like the perceptions that you talked about going together.
(18:47):
I think that comes through taking a step back, even
from our own religious perspective, and looking at it from
a more I'd rather not say terrek because that has
a lot of connotations in different ways, but I would
say maybe probably a more mystical perspective, in other words,
looking at from more of an experiential perspective of what
(19:11):
we define as God or what we define as something
beyond what we typically perceive. I think that the more
you look at it from that perspective, it's much easier
to see how religion has not only changed, but also
looking at how our understandings in different faith traditions, even
in things like shamanism or I've been exposed to things
(19:35):
in you know, like Haitian voodoo. Have you ever met
any you know, any of the brothers in DC that practice.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
That I have met them. Yes, I've not seen it
or been exposed. It's something I'd be interested in learning
or even observing. But I've heard them talk about it yet.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, I've only I've only seen one time, like the
way that they practice vadu or vodu to hand, how
you But I bring them up because it's an interesting
overlap to having that exposure to a different religious and
spiritual perspective and how they practice that. What I realize
is that there's not only a lot of overlap to
(20:15):
Christianity and some of the types of ideas presented, but
there's also different things that are emphasized that you can
pull from that. Then when you reflect on your own
tradition or different traditions, you can see a little bit
clearer different ideas that we're there, but you had those
Sometimes that flow of perception in general is less about
(20:37):
gaining more knowledge as having a few ideas that stimulate
your awareness to where you then perceive everything that was
already there to begin with, but you hadn't been queue
to perceive it yet.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
The other thing that I was thinking about about the
stream of tradition and kind of like the flow of knowledge,
just in a very simple context, is the idea of
you know, set heart, that kind of saying, hey, look,
I have to go take my own steps. I have
to learn by myself. I have to experience life to
really understand what it is like. I can't follow your
truth or follow your path right, And so many times
(21:09):
with things like well how come candidates have to walk
around the floor in this way? Because this is how
it's always been done. That's that's the tradition of our ritual,
Like our ritual is tradition. And I feel like the
flow of knowledge is kind of the way that we
as Master Masons communicate the quote unquote deeper meanings or
(21:31):
you know, hey, do you know what this symbol over
here in this area? Why we do this or why
we do that? And it's those little like sideline conversations,
those little microdoses of Masonic education that you get. And
I feel like that kind of also plays into the
flow of knowledge, and that the idea is is that
you know, as much as we say, oh, you're a
master mason, it's like, but I haven't really fully mastered
(21:54):
all of the craft I've I've basically mastered being really
good at being open to learning things is how I
describe it.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
What's interesting is that in a general lodge a lot
of people don't necessarily those conversations aren't necessarily had within
like a general massage meeting. But if you look at
the DC ritual, it specifically mentions at one point that
you're encouraged to learn about this outside of a general
lodge kind of arena. You're actually supposed to be having
(22:25):
these those discussions with older mentors to be able to
learn and to grow. And I think that's one of
the things that really stod out to me was a
good mentor in that regard is one that is open
to having those discussions outside the log in a way
that not only stimulates your appreciation for the ritual, but
(22:46):
lets you know the importance of learning and seeking yourself
so that if you have that question, that becomes an
opportunity for yourself to learn. And quite frankly, I've had
other mentors who are way more knowledgeable than me, experienced masonically,
I've done more degrees whatever, But I'll mention something and
(23:07):
they'll say, oh, I've never thought of it that way,
And the first time they've actually been exposed to someone
else saying a different perspective. And even they still are
learning after decades of practicing the ritual or working within
different lodges to perfect their knowledge and their understand.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
And that's a big theme, as you pointed out in
this books at heart, the role of individual enlightenment, the
importance of doing the quote unquote inner work of self actualization,
discovery and improvement. Another big one is the concept of listening,
and not so much as like being spatially aware that
things are happening in your life, but like really listening
(23:48):
as in Buddhism, as they say it, like seeks seek
to understand, Except in this one they talk about finding
the OM I don't know if I'm saying that correctly,
or the.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Om yeah the arm or yeah, so what is that?
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And what is I'm guessing that has something to do
with the concept of like inter reflection or contemplation, and
do we do any of that in our lodges or
in our Masonic.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Work the word, you know, when you think about it's
it's more of the idea. I actually have the quote
from the book, and it's about the idea of perfection
and in a lot of and this is where I
find interesting differences between Eastern and Western philosophies. And Western
philosophies there is a very odd tendency to label things
(24:37):
as that's objectively good and that's objectively bad. You know,
there's good and evil and there's just one thing that
you have to you know, always go for good. The
Eastern philosophies, interestingly, will take a perspective that's much more inclusive,
and they'll say, well, is it really all bad or good?
Or is it really the way that you perceive it
(24:57):
and you understand its purpose and how even what we
perceive as being bad for another person can be good.
And the way I kind of view this as a
doctor saying, you know, yes, I get to treat people.
For them, it sucks they have to go to the
hospital and they have to go to the doctor. For me,
it's more of all this opportunity for me to learn
(25:18):
it helps someone who's actually meet So is it really
good or bad? It's kind of hard to really say,
it's more of it is what it is. And I
think the idea of on of being this kind of
perfection is being at peace with having these dichotomies in
life and saying it is what it is. But it's
(25:38):
more about what I do with this moment, this experience
to then project that forward into something good. In other words,
it's less about labeling it. It's more about accepting what
happens and then using that experience to guide how you
love and care for other people. At least that's one
way I think you could interpret it. Now, how we
(26:00):
do that in the lodge. One of the ways that
I see this is more about how we do the ritual,
and that you may have some people that are more
experienced and people that are less experienced, and everybody's learning
at their own pace. Even though there can be some
mishaps when you're doing the ritual, things aren't always perfect,
(26:21):
even people have done it for a long time. The
whole thing, as long as there's an order and that
people are helping and that things progress forward, eventually it ends.
And even when we've done rituals or degrees, as long
as you hit the ending right amongst all the different
things than usually most people leave feeling very well able,
(26:42):
And I think of that as sort of the ultimate
ideas that despite all the imperfections or perfections, that we
find satisfaction in being in the experience and in the
moments that we're able to and not necessarily drifting off
to what's happening outside the lodge, which is again one
of the things that they do at the beginning of
(27:04):
Lodge is opening and closing the lodge. Is that side
of behavior is to establish that. So I think in
one way you can think of am as that kind
of being in the moment, being present with what happens,
and not necessarily focusing on labeling, well, that was really
good at really that and just saying well, people are
learning at their own pace and all time, and we're
(27:24):
all working together towards a common goal.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
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(28:25):
inner piece, you touched on that a few times. That's
a big major theme. It's kind of like the last
thing I wanted to close out for this book discussion.
I think that's the goal. As you look at the
allegory of building your symbolic temple, there's a lot of
discussion around that, like, oh, well, I don't know if
my temple got completed. I'm a master Mason. No, I
don't understand. It's like, no, you wouldn't have been able
(28:46):
to become a master Mason unless you did this work.
I mean yes, in a practical sense, you know, is
it possible to complete your Masonic temple in three months
from when you took your last degree? To do you
have to put work in to perfect this or you know,
to get the job complete, so to speak. But I
(29:09):
like the idea of achieving inner peace, and I like
the idea of tranquility of mind, and a lot of
that is kind of to what you're touching on as well,
is the idea of accepting and forgiving and that I
not just in others, but also in yourself. And I
think of the you know, the Masonic tools that we have,
the working tools that are made available to us to
(29:30):
kind of understand this. So you've got the square, you've
got the compasses, and the idea of your passions and
due bounds and you know, regulating things, being aware of
what your weaknesses are and trying to be present and
with the intent of being better, being cautious and being
respectful and mindful. Can you elaborate a little bit? Were
(29:50):
you picking up any of those gems while you were
reading Saidhartha and hitting some of those key points.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Ultimately, pre masonry is not about end goals, about process,
And I think that was That's the word I always
think about someone disguised as freemasonry, I says freemasonry is
a process, non And because I think that's why we
talk about in the lodge about you know, the end goal,
about going to the east or all those things. But
(30:20):
like you mentioned something I just thought of, you know,
heimrobif you know, or not even hybridvit. But a lot
of the Ruffians they never get the secret word of
a master Mason. The just think that it's never revealed.
There's certain things that are never discussed, right. The question is, well,
why is that? You know, if we're supposed to be
seeking perfection, then why aren't these things completed? And the
(30:42):
common theme amongst all these things is that the tools
and everything that you're given, the immortality sold All these
things are about saying, it's not the end goal that matters,
it's the process that you're in the current moment working
on and that's what matters most of all. And it's
the same thing about who you are as a person
(31:03):
that is being discovered through whateverthing that you're working on
at that and that's a different way of perceiving it
than looking for an ultimate goal, but saying I'm going
to focus on the process by which I'm trying to
understand who I am, and it reminds me about the
habits and the tools that we're given. In a way,
(31:25):
I think of it more as these are the tools
in the process by which you try to attempt to
understand what's going on in the present without necessarily expecting
there to be a final endpoint to it all. And
so I think that's where I would say you find
a greater depth of meaning is by viewing freemasonry, life,
(31:48):
whatever you look at, even God. It's a process of
being in the moments of being in that continued search
and understanding than saying, oh, well, this is the final
answer or this is the achievement. Because think about that,
when you become a master, even within your lodge, there's
not much else you can really point to, right, there's
(32:11):
not an escalation. You go highest to the highest point. Right,
then the question becomes what do I do next after
I've achieved everything? And for me it's always a reminder
of learning how to be in the moment, but then
also in conjunction with that understanding what process is going
(32:33):
on and how can I facilitate myself being in harmony
with that process. So, in other words, in the lodge
we talked about different members. There's different positions in the
lodge that all have their specific function. Each one has
an important point or important role to fit that if
it's not done right, the whole lodge can't operate even
(32:57):
the least like, for instance, the role of me being
master of ceremonies. Yes, you're not the Worshill Master, you're
not any of like the three major wardens. But at
the same time, if you don't do your job right,
nothing can go. You can't proceed with the opening and
closing the lodge like it will completely stop. The master
(33:18):
can't do that, you know, the junior and senior warnings
can't do those things. You have to be able to
do your position well. And it's only with understanding how
you fin the harmony of the process that you start
seeing the bigger picture of it. If you look at
a lot of traditions, especially in Siddhartha, the idea of
understanding the process and the flow of life is by
(33:39):
taking a bigger step beyond yourself and seeing how you're
small contributions in life fin to something larger.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Dude, I was just going to go there. That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
I saw your thunder though I'm.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
No, no, no, no, you just threw the match on
the gas because I was already like, man, I can't
wait to get into this part of it with you.
Because we hear a lot in freemasonry, a lot of
the lessons are how to interact with our fellow man
or in our communities or just other people. Right, and
we're taught to be gracious and forgiving, and you know,
(34:12):
all of these wonderful, great qualities. But there's one person
that we don't really learn directly about how to really
listen to or be better to, and that's to ourself.
And that's the one point that we're making is I
feel too often men today and probably throughout time we were,
we can become overly critical of ourselves, like, oh my gosh,
(34:34):
I can't believe I did this. I totally let myself down.
I forgot about you know, my partner's birthday. I bounced,
you know my check. My checking account is overdrawn. I
hit a curb trying to parallel park the other day.
You know, these little dumb things that we do, and
we're like, a man, I'm just beating myself up because
I've made a mistake. But then we don't sit there
(34:56):
and go, man, you know what, you really, if you
could hug yourself today, you probably should because you spent
however many months memorizing thirty minutes of a ritual part
or you worked with this one guy who really needed
someone just to listen to a tough day or a
loss of a family member, and you were there for them,
(35:16):
Like good for you being a good and we to
what you're saying is like these little moments where we
do make impacts in the lives of others and we
never see it, We never really take a step back
and be like that provides I know it's a different
kind of tranquility of mind, but it's it's the accepting
of I'm doing good because I am good, because being
(35:38):
good is also a part of what's inside of me.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I was writing about this today. If you look at
you know, sometimes in Christianity or other traditions they talk
about human beings being a reflection of God, or you know,
in Eastern traditions they talk about like you being divine itself.
I can't create the universe. I'm not this all powerful being.
But the more I thought about it's more of it's
(36:01):
not about you somehow being God. It's the idea of
you're in process of being aware of those qualities that
matter the most, and that's the part that is the
most important. And like you were saying, is that we
focus on all of the imperfections. But then at the
same time, what I realized is that those imperfections are
(36:23):
often where you learn the most important lessons. If you're
always constantly thinking of perfection, you're basically not looking at
anything that is meaningful. It's sort of like having a
bright light shining on you. If everything is bright, you're
not going to see anything. It's the contrast that teach
you the most important lessons. Overall, what I realize is
(36:46):
that most of the time we discount the simple acts
of listening and realizing how even the very fact of
not saying anything and just listening to someone can have
more impact for that entire person's life they knew spouting
off a million different lessons, right, because I think sometimes
(37:07):
especially in our culture, we think, oh, I need to
know the technique or I need to know just the
data to get me through. Most of the time, what
I've seen is that people are so busy they just think, thankful,
let someone listen, because they've had all these thoughts, they've
had all these problems, and sometimes they just need someone
to sit there, regardless of who they are, and to
(37:29):
really just soak in what they're going through and sometimes say, hey,
that sounds really rough. What is it that you're really
looking for? It's questions like that that I found lead
to the best headway of fixing problems, because most of
the time, the real problem is not what we think
the problem. It's the underlying, unspoken existential question that no
(37:54):
one's really poked. That once you get there, I think
for us all that's where we find the greatest piece
and relief.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Again. If you enjoyed our conversation on Sidhartha, you can
read Brother Jonathan's book review at Craftsman online dot com.
Just go to the blog. You can also help us
out and our goal to get Patreon subscribers. No more
commercials from me, more Craftsman Online podcast for you. That's
the offer. Just five dollars a month to support the
(38:25):
show on Patreon, and we thank you in advance. I'm
right worship for Brother Michael Lars until next time. But
peace and harmony prevail.
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(00:23):
this week at Bricksmasons dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
The commons, opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, Concordant Body, a pendant Body,
Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot com.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Hey, welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcasts, the only
Masonic podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York.
I'm your host that right worship of Brother Michael Arsay,
and this week we're tackling a really cool tradition. It's
a book that explores the search for enlightenment. It's a
really cool novel. It's called Sidhartha by Herman Hess who
(01:14):
is a brother by the way. It's confusing at times
because if you know the story of the Buddha, a
lot of Sidhartha's journey does kind of weave into that story,
mainly when he's exploring the paths, the pursuits, and ultimately
his own self discovery journey into the river of wisdom.
Don't worry, we're going to get into all of these
(01:35):
themes with our guests this week, but I just wanted
to give some background on the book in case you're
unfamiliar as we Welcome back, brother Jonathan Kopple, who has
also written an article on this book at craftsman online
dot com. Right there in the blog or open up
the notes for this episode. Welcome back to the podcast,
brother Jonathan.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Get to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I would have never ever discovered this book or Herman
Hess if it hadn't been for you. This is one
of those things that was just completely off my radar.
I was so fascinated one getting your input on the book,
and we'll get into that. And it is a quick
page turner, but also kind of the story of Herman Hesse.
(02:14):
He is a brother. This book was written back in
nineteen twenty two. It came after he traveled to Srilinka
and Indonesia, and was really inspired by that trip before
World War One, kind of like you. I found that
there's a parallel here. This was a guy at a
certain point in his life, Herman Hess, who was on
his own spiritual quest. And I know a lot of
(02:34):
the conversations that you and I have shared personally and
also here on the podcast, you know, are the parallels
of lessons of freemasonry and how to apply that in
our spiritual life. I'm just curious, how did you discover
this book and what did you get out of it.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
It was more of a happenstance that I came across.
In fact, to be type in Siddartha online, the book
won't even show up most of the time, because most
people will read Siddartha and go to the Buddha and
read the entire history of the Buddha and go to Buddhism.
But if you type in said Dartha, you actually have
to type in his full name the author, because of
(03:10):
that overlap between it. So I'm not surprised I never
came across it, But when I reached out to other
mentors of mine, it turns out that people that are
I would say more humanities and more literature inclined are
very familiar with this book.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
And it's not the thickest book that's out there, which
is good. So if you're just looking for kind of
a quick page turner, a light read, you'll dig this.
And I think a lot of readers are going to
kind of stumble into it the same way I did
and go, wait, is this the story of the Buddha
that's happening here?
Speaker 3 (03:42):
That was my initial thought because I've read the book
and I admittedly thought, oh, and am I already going
to know what's going to happen in the story? And
oddly enough, it completely turns the story on its head.
In fact, what stood out to me was how the
main character in the story, so Dartha, turns out to
(04:02):
have his own disagreements with the Buddha and with different
characters in the book, and it becomes more of his
personal journey. Rather than saying, oh, the Buddha was completely right,
it's more of saying, well, what if the Buddha is wrong? Like,
how do I figure out what is true based on
(04:23):
my life experiences and the journey that I'm on and
not clinging to what one person is saying, even if
they might be right on the law different points. I
thought that dialogue was very poignant for a lot of
the discussions I've had with other Masons in the lodge,
as well as some of the themes within freemasonry as a whole.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
We covered you know what drew you into it. We
teased a little bit that there's parallels between Sidhartha and
the story of the Buddha, which they're not connected. They're
not related, it's just the author has was kind of
borrowing and inspired by some of those themes. If you
could give us, like your snapshot of what this story
(05:03):
is all about.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I would say, imagine if said Dartha instead of trying
to find enlightenment through the classic Buddhist perception. Instead, this
character is more about arguing with the Buddha and having
their own journey of discovery and finding what is the
(05:25):
common theme that matters amongst all these different faiths and traditions,
What is it that really resonates amongst them all. That's
the way I would sort of describe the story.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
One of the themes that I saw as a takeaway was
the idea that wisdom can't be taught, that life experiences
are that that have to be experienced, and that's what
this character decided to do, was kind of what you're
pointing to. Instead of reading the classic teachings or the
ancient mysteries or the wisdom that existed at that time,
he was like, well, you know what, the best way
to do this is to go just do it. Do
(05:58):
you find that to be kind of an interesting or
maybe even profound statement for somebody kind of your age,
at your life, starting in your career and also getting
started in your Masonic career as.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Well, maybe a few years ago and may have said that,
I think that the more that I've experienced within my profession,
especially coming to DC and learning from the different lodges too,
I think it's been more emphasized on practicing that. But
I think it takes a lot of mentorship and guidance
to learn. Not necessarily. I don't want to say how
(06:32):
to do it, like there's a formula that if you
do it this way, it's to give you all the
answers or or whatnot. But I think the most important
lesson is learning the process by which you do That
is the most important thing, rather than saying this is
the right way it's what process gives you this certain
outcome that you're looking for, or what you're really trying
to understand. And I think that really reading this book
(06:54):
was more of an emphasis on that same journey of
not only understanding why knowing yourself is important, but also
understanding how people can get drawn to different directions that
aren't necessarily wrong, but they're less difficult, but they sort
of avoid the fundamental existential questions that take a lot
(07:16):
of effort in time. And I would even argue some
discomfort in the sense of being exposed to things that
really challenge your perceptions and your own beliefs and being
able to come to terms with that discomfort.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
One of the themes in the book is You kind
of touched on was the concept of seeking, and it
got me thinking of one of our early Masonic truth seekers,
brother Manly P. Hall, who wrote Encyclopedias literally about his
search for light. How do you find that concept of
Sidhartha always seeking, going out, living aligning. Do you see
(07:57):
that at all with your Masonic journey?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
I would say yes, I think mine wasn't intentional. I
think it was more of I think looking at it
was being curious, but also sincere, because I think there's
people that can be curious but insincere, and they don't
necessarily go together. In other words, I think that what
(08:21):
it took for me was following my natural inclination to
learn and understand, but then finding other people within the
lodge or outside that could guide that in directions that
I didn't expect Nora really understood until I started reading
and reflecting on things myself, and I think the benefit
(08:41):
of what they did was they didn't say, read this
book because it will tell you this. It was read
this book and let me know what you think. Pointing
the direction, but then letting yourself be able to take
time to think about it within your own life and circumstances.
I think gives the best out come with not forcing
(09:01):
an interpretation, but allowing you to find what you need
to learn at your particular stage. And I think that's
maybe the biggest lesson I've learned, is that Ruth is
sometimes there in front of you, but you're not able
to see it because you're not ready to understand it,
because you're still dealing with other things that are as
(09:24):
important but not necessarily what you need at that moment.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Throughout the story, Sidhartha and I can already see in
their parallel Here he encounters a lot of different teachers
and paths. And you know, one of the things I
loved about this book is that the Joseph Campbell, you know,
Hero of a Thousand Journeys, that hero arc is somewhat familiar. Here.
There's that structure that we get. But then there's also
(09:48):
just like the concept of various teachers and paths, and
I immediately started thinking of Okay, obviously, there's the path
that you follow to knock on the first Masonic lodge
that you want to seek to become a member of.
There's steps that you take through our ritual when you're
doing the obligations and going through the degrees, and then
there's everything that happens after that, like the true paths
(10:08):
of enlightenment that begin to present themselves once you become
a master Mason. That one I can understand it. How
about the various teachers? Can you speak to that like
the important role of mentors and how they help Sidhartha
through his journey.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
It's interesting because Siddartha, unlike the other characters, starts out
initially looking for I wouldn't say a mentor, but some guidance.
In other words, he's looking for a group of people
or someone to give him some answer. And he goes
(10:44):
to the aesthetics initially in the story, and he goes
with a friend of his, and through all that he
becomes more disenchanted with it because he realizes that their
own philosophical system is never ending. There's never really a
solid answer. It becomes sort of this, uh, you could
(11:05):
even say philosophically, it's more of, you know, it is
a redundant answer in that the question gives an answer
that then goes back and it just it's circular reasoning almost,
And he wasn't satisfied. He's not satisfied with that. And
as he goes along the journey and meets initially at
one point he sees the Buddha his friend was, you know,
(11:29):
becomes drawn to and says, well, I want to follow this.
This is the path that will lead me to where
I need to go. And the Buddha has that same discussion.
He's like, do you want to stay? And the conversation
that really stood out to me was the line where
he tells the Buddha, if I stay with you, my
fear is I will lose myself and I will no
longer be who I am and what I need to learn.
(11:53):
And that was kind of counterintuitive for the Buddha. He
wasn't expecting that answer, But it was the idea that
if I became your student, I would be trying to
learn your truth, but it wouldn't necessarily be the truth
that I need to learn for what I was here
to learn. In other words, it would be I'm learning
something that is important and probably true, but it's not
(12:17):
the truth that I need to learn myself and the
one that probably other people need to learn. But it's
not something that this teacher can give me. It's something
that I have to experience in my own life and
story rather than trying to follow the story of another
person to give me that meaning. And I think that
was an interesting theme for a person in the eighteen
(12:40):
hundreds to actually write this at that time in the
culture he was originally from. I thought that was very
interesting on how he had that insight into himself as
well as the underlying story that he was trying to
tell within Sadartha.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Hey, it's right worship for Brother Michael Lars. Before you
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(13:26):
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(13:47):
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(14:08):
let's make this happen. Looking at this through the Masonic
lens and the way that we structure a lot of
(14:30):
our Masonic education, especially when it's the portion of you
go in, you take your first degree, here's what you
need to know about that so that you can get
passed and take your Fellowcraft degree, so that you can
eventually go through that and then become race to the
sublime degree of Master Mason. There's nothing, officially, I would say,
across all of the jurisdictions that we say, oh, you
(14:51):
must do this. You must each lodge, and each jurisdiction
has its own way of providing that path of education.
But there are key things that we touch on which
I think are really interesting. And that's the part that
got to me masonically speaking. It's that, yeah, you can
work with a mentor who can help you work on
(15:12):
your catechism so that you can you know, prove up
and go from an EA to a Fellowcraft degree. Fantastic.
But then you're going to interact with another brother in
the lodge who may not present himself as a mentor
or a teacher, but he could be, you know, parallel
to what said Heartha was looking for somebody with some
experience and they could talk about something completely different, and
(15:34):
that first degree or that second degree or even the
third degree wasn't on your radar because it wasn't the
quote unquote prescribed learning you know lesson that you were
going through at that time. And that's when you're just like, Wow,
I feel like I just got a gem. I feel
like I just discovered a treasure chest full of new ideas.
Like there's this energy that comes. And that's one of
(15:56):
the things I like to hear you talk about is
you've travel a lot now as a new master Mason
who've been doing this for a few years, and you're
coming across and meeting all these new brothers with all
these new ideas. How is that changing or enhancing or
improving or how's that affecting your path that you're walking.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
I think it's given me a lot more to learn.
I think that it's more of an awareness of how
each person you meet teaches you by simply being themselves
a lot of lessons or even skills, or I would
even say, more of an awareness of areas to improve
(16:37):
on that you wouldn't otherwise learn within your own group
of people that you commonly associate with. The problem is,
what I've noticed is that the more that you become
silent into your profession. It inherently limits your perceptions and
you start to have this idea or this belief that
(17:00):
your perspective almost encompasses everything. That you view everything through
that one lens. You almost restrict yourself and your ability
to not only look at things from a different perspective,
but looking at it from a wider range to where
you can accurately assess what you're seeing. So if, for instance,
(17:20):
if all I ever associated myself was around other people
within my field, then would have I wouldn't meet people
in the lodge that were lawyers, people that were government officials,
people that were writers, people who are artists. You wouldn't
have the full spectrum of people to learn from. And
based on my experience, the benefit of the lodge as
(17:41):
a whole is that you are not only exposed to
a white group of people, but you're able to learn
from their individual journeys that have changed throughout time and
lessons that they've learned.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
We're going inside hermann Has's timeless classic, Saidhartha with brother
Jonathan Copple on this episode to the Craftsman Online podcast.
You'll notice that the title for this one talks about
the River of Wisdom and we're going to get into
some of the symbolism that can be found inside this book,
and again how that overlays with Masonic lessons. The river
plays a crucial symbolic role in this book. How do
(18:16):
you see the concept of stream of tradition or flow
of knowledge that gets mentioned connecting with Freemasonry?
Speaker 3 (18:25):
That I think is a good question. I would say
that if you took the ritual as is without context,
I don't think you would have that perception initially for
different reasons. I think that the flow of all these
different things, like the perceptions that you talked about going together.
(18:47):
I think that comes through taking a step back, even
from our own religious perspective, and looking at it from
a more I'd rather not say terrek because that has
a lot of connotations in different ways, but I would
say maybe probably a more mystical perspective, in other words,
looking at from more of an experiential perspective of what
(19:11):
we define as God or what we define as something
beyond what we typically perceive. I think that the more
you look at it from that perspective, it's much easier
to see how religion has not only changed, but also
looking at how our understandings in different faith traditions, even
in things like shamanism or I've been exposed to things
(19:35):
in you know, like Haitian voodoo. Have you ever met
any you know, any of the brothers in DC that practice.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
That I have met them. Yes, I've not seen it
or been exposed. It's something I'd be interested in learning
or even observing. But I've heard them talk about it yet.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, I've only I've only seen one time, like the
way that they practice vadu or vodu to hand, how
you But I bring them up because it's an interesting
overlap to having that exposure to a different religious and
spiritual perspective and how they practice that. What I realize
is that there's not only a lot of overlap to
(20:15):
Christianity and some of the types of ideas presented, but
there's also different things that are emphasized that you can
pull from that. Then when you reflect on your own
tradition or different traditions, you can see a little bit
clearer different ideas that we're there, but you had those
Sometimes that flow of perception in general is less about
(20:37):
gaining more knowledge as having a few ideas that stimulate
your awareness to where you then perceive everything that was
already there to begin with, but you hadn't been queue
to perceive it yet.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
The other thing that I was thinking about about the
stream of tradition and kind of like the flow of knowledge,
just in a very simple context, is the idea of
you know, set heart, that kind of saying, hey, look,
I have to go take my own steps. I have
to learn by myself. I have to experience life to
really understand what it is like. I can't follow your
truth or follow your path right, And so many times
(21:09):
with things like well how come candidates have to walk
around the floor in this way? Because this is how
it's always been done. That's that's the tradition of our ritual,
Like our ritual is tradition. And I feel like the
flow of knowledge is kind of the way that we
as Master Masons communicate the quote unquote deeper meanings or
(21:31):
you know, hey, do you know what this symbol over
here in this area? Why we do this or why
we do that? And it's those little like sideline conversations,
those little microdoses of Masonic education that you get. And
I feel like that kind of also plays into the
flow of knowledge, and that the idea is is that
you know, as much as we say, oh, you're a
master mason, it's like, but I haven't really fully mastered
(21:54):
all of the craft I've I've basically mastered being really
good at being open to learning things is how I
describe it.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
What's interesting is that in a general lodge a lot
of people don't necessarily those conversations aren't necessarily had within
like a general massage meeting. But if you look at
the DC ritual, it specifically mentions at one point that
you're encouraged to learn about this outside of a general
lodge kind of arena. You're actually supposed to be having
(22:25):
these those discussions with older mentors to be able to
learn and to grow. And I think that's one of
the things that really stod out to me was a
good mentor in that regard is one that is open
to having those discussions outside the log in a way
that not only stimulates your appreciation for the ritual, but
(22:46):
lets you know the importance of learning and seeking yourself
so that if you have that question, that becomes an
opportunity for yourself to learn. And quite frankly, I've had
other mentors who are way more knowledgeable than me, experienced masonically,
I've done more degrees whatever, But I'll mention something and
(23:07):
they'll say, oh, I've never thought of it that way,
And the first time they've actually been exposed to someone
else saying a different perspective. And even they still are
learning after decades of practicing the ritual or working within
different lodges to perfect their knowledge and their understand.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
And that's a big theme, as you pointed out in
this books at heart, the role of individual enlightenment, the
importance of doing the quote unquote inner work of self actualization,
discovery and improvement. Another big one is the concept of listening,
and not so much as like being spatially aware that
things are happening in your life, but like really listening
(23:48):
as in Buddhism, as they say it, like seeks seek
to understand, Except in this one they talk about finding
the OM I don't know if I'm saying that correctly,
or the.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Om yeah the arm or yeah, so what is that?
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And what is I'm guessing that has something to do
with the concept of like inter reflection or contemplation, and
do we do any of that in our lodges or
in our Masonic.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Work the word, you know, when you think about it's
it's more of the idea. I actually have the quote
from the book, and it's about the idea of perfection
and in a lot of and this is where I
find interesting differences between Eastern and Western philosophies. And Western
philosophies there is a very odd tendency to label things
(24:37):
as that's objectively good and that's objectively bad. You know,
there's good and evil and there's just one thing that
you have to you know, always go for good. The
Eastern philosophies, interestingly, will take a perspective that's much more inclusive,
and they'll say, well, is it really all bad or good?
Or is it really the way that you perceive it
(24:57):
and you understand its purpose and how even what we
perceive as being bad for another person can be good.
And the way I kind of view this as a
doctor saying, you know, yes, I get to treat people.
For them, it sucks they have to go to the
hospital and they have to go to the doctor. For me,
it's more of all this opportunity for me to learn
(25:18):
it helps someone who's actually meet So is it really
good or bad? It's kind of hard to really say,
it's more of it is what it is. And I
think the idea of on of being this kind of
perfection is being at peace with having these dichotomies in
life and saying it is what it is. But it's
(25:38):
more about what I do with this moment, this experience
to then project that forward into something good. In other words,
it's less about labeling it. It's more about accepting what
happens and then using that experience to guide how you
love and care for other people. At least that's one
way I think you could interpret it. Now, how we
(26:00):
do that in the lodge. One of the ways that
I see this is more about how we do the ritual,
and that you may have some people that are more
experienced and people that are less experienced, and everybody's learning
at their own pace. Even though there can be some
mishaps when you're doing the ritual, things aren't always perfect,
(26:21):
even people have done it for a long time. The
whole thing, as long as there's an order and that
people are helping and that things progress forward, eventually it ends.
And even when we've done rituals or degrees, as long
as you hit the ending right amongst all the different
things than usually most people leave feeling very well able,
(26:42):
And I think of that as sort of the ultimate
ideas that despite all the imperfections or perfections, that we
find satisfaction in being in the experience and in the
moments that we're able to and not necessarily drifting off
to what's happening outside the lodge, which is again one
of the things that they do at the beginning of
(27:04):
Lodge is opening and closing the lodge. Is that side
of behavior is to establish that. So I think in
one way you can think of am as that kind
of being in the moment, being present with what happens,
and not necessarily focusing on labeling, well, that was really
good at really that and just saying well, people are
learning at their own pace and all time, and we're
(27:24):
all working together towards a common goal.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
The Craftsman online podcast probably sponsored by Bricksmasons dot com Man,
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ton of variety in styles, starting at less than ten bucks.
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(28:25):
inner piece, you touched on that a few times. That's
a big major theme. It's kind of like the last
thing I wanted to close out for this book discussion.
I think that's the goal. As you look at the
allegory of building your symbolic temple, there's a lot of
discussion around that, like, oh, well, I don't know if
my temple got completed. I'm a master Mason. No, I
don't understand. It's like, no, you wouldn't have been able
(28:46):
to become a master Mason unless you did this work.
I mean yes, in a practical sense, you know, is
it possible to complete your Masonic temple in three months
from when you took your last degree? To do you
have to put work in to perfect this or you know,
to get the job complete, so to speak. But I
(29:09):
like the idea of achieving inner peace, and I like
the idea of tranquility of mind, and a lot of
that is kind of to what you're touching on as well,
is the idea of accepting and forgiving and that I
not just in others, but also in yourself. And I
think of the you know, the Masonic tools that we have,
the working tools that are made available to us to
(29:30):
kind of understand this. So you've got the square, you've
got the compasses, and the idea of your passions and
due bounds and you know, regulating things, being aware of
what your weaknesses are and trying to be present and
with the intent of being better, being cautious and being
respectful and mindful. Can you elaborate a little bit? Were
(29:50):
you picking up any of those gems while you were
reading Saidhartha and hitting some of those key points.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Ultimately, pre masonry is not about end goals, about process,
And I think that was That's the word I always
think about someone disguised as freemasonry, I says freemasonry is
a process, non And because I think that's why we
talk about in the lodge about you know, the end goal,
about going to the east or all those things. But
(30:20):
like you mentioned something I just thought of, you know,
heimrobif you know, or not even hybridvit. But a lot
of the Ruffians they never get the secret word of
a master Mason. The just think that it's never revealed.
There's certain things that are never discussed, right. The question is, well,
why is that? You know, if we're supposed to be
seeking perfection, then why aren't these things completed? And the
(30:42):
common theme amongst all these things is that the tools
and everything that you're given, the immortality sold All these
things are about saying, it's not the end goal that matters,
it's the process that you're in the current moment working
on and that's what matters most of all. And it's
the same thing about who you are as a person
(31:03):
that is being discovered through whateverthing that you're working on
at that and that's a different way of perceiving it
than looking for an ultimate goal, but saying I'm going
to focus on the process by which I'm trying to
understand who I am, and it reminds me about the
habits and the tools that we're given. In a way,
(31:25):
I think of it more as these are the tools
in the process by which you try to attempt to
understand what's going on in the present without necessarily expecting
there to be a final endpoint to it all. And
so I think that's where I would say you find
a greater depth of meaning is by viewing freemasonry, life,
(31:48):
whatever you look at, even God. It's a process of
being in the moments of being in that continued search
and understanding than saying, oh, well, this is the final
answer or this is the achievement. Because think about that,
when you become a master, even within your lodge, there's
not much else you can really point to, right, there's
(32:11):
not an escalation. You go highest to the highest point. Right,
then the question becomes what do I do next after
I've achieved everything? And for me it's always a reminder
of learning how to be in the moment, but then
also in conjunction with that understanding what process is going
(32:33):
on and how can I facilitate myself being in harmony
with that process. So, in other words, in the lodge
we talked about different members. There's different positions in the
lodge that all have their specific function. Each one has
an important point or important role to fit that if
it's not done right, the whole lodge can't operate even
(32:57):
the least like, for instance, the role of me being
master of ceremonies. Yes, you're not the Worshill Master, you're
not any of like the three major wardens. But at
the same time, if you don't do your job right,
nothing can go. You can't proceed with the opening and
closing the lodge like it will completely stop. The master
(33:18):
can't do that, you know, the junior and senior warnings
can't do those things. You have to be able to
do your position well. And it's only with understanding how
you fin the harmony of the process that you start
seeing the bigger picture of it. If you look at
a lot of traditions, especially in Siddhartha, the idea of
understanding the process and the flow of life is by
(33:39):
taking a bigger step beyond yourself and seeing how you're
small contributions in life fin to something larger.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Dude, I was just going to go there. That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
I saw your thunder though I'm.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
No, no, no, no, you just threw the match on
the gas because I was already like, man, I can't
wait to get into this part of it with you.
Because we hear a lot in freemasonry, a lot of
the lessons are how to interact with our fellow man
or in our communities or just other people. Right, and
we're taught to be gracious and forgiving, and you know,
(34:12):
all of these wonderful, great qualities. But there's one person
that we don't really learn directly about how to really
listen to or be better to, and that's to ourself.
And that's the one point that we're making is I
feel too often men today and probably throughout time we were,
we can become overly critical of ourselves, like, oh my gosh,
(34:34):
I can't believe I did this. I totally let myself down.
I forgot about you know, my partner's birthday. I bounced,
you know my check. My checking account is overdrawn. I
hit a curb trying to parallel park the other day.
You know, these little dumb things that we do, and
we're like, a man, I'm just beating myself up because
I've made a mistake. But then we don't sit there
(34:56):
and go, man, you know what, you really, if you
could hug yourself today, you probably should because you spent
however many months memorizing thirty minutes of a ritual part
or you worked with this one guy who really needed
someone just to listen to a tough day or a
loss of a family member, and you were there for them,
(35:16):
Like good for you being a good and we to
what you're saying is like these little moments where we
do make impacts in the lives of others and we
never see it, We never really take a step back
and be like that provides I know it's a different
kind of tranquility of mind, but it's it's the accepting
of I'm doing good because I am good, because being
(35:38):
good is also a part of what's inside of me.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I was writing about this today. If you look at
you know, sometimes in Christianity or other traditions they talk
about human beings being a reflection of God, or you know,
in Eastern traditions they talk about like you being divine itself.
I can't create the universe. I'm not this all powerful being.
But the more I thought about it's more of it's
(36:01):
not about you somehow being God. It's the idea of
you're in process of being aware of those qualities that
matter the most, and that's the part that is the
most important. And like you were saying, is that we
focus on all of the imperfections. But then at the
same time, what I realized is that those imperfections are
(36:23):
often where you learn the most important lessons. If you're
always constantly thinking of perfection, you're basically not looking at
anything that is meaningful. It's sort of like having a
bright light shining on you. If everything is bright, you're
not going to see anything. It's the contrast that teach
you the most important lessons. Overall, what I realize is
(36:46):
that most of the time we discount the simple acts
of listening and realizing how even the very fact of
not saying anything and just listening to someone can have
more impact for that entire person's life they knew spouting
off a million different lessons, right, because I think sometimes
(37:07):
especially in our culture, we think, oh, I need to
know the technique or I need to know just the
data to get me through. Most of the time, what
I've seen is that people are so busy they just think, thankful,
let someone listen, because they've had all these thoughts, they've
had all these problems, and sometimes they just need someone
to sit there, regardless of who they are, and to
(37:29):
really just soak in what they're going through and sometimes say, hey,
that sounds really rough. What is it that you're really
looking for? It's questions like that that I found lead
to the best headway of fixing problems, because most of
the time, the real problem is not what we think
the problem. It's the underlying, unspoken existential question that no
(37:54):
one's really poked. That once you get there, I think
for us all that's where we find the greatest piece
and relief.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Again. If you enjoyed our conversation on Sidhartha, you can
read Brother Jonathan's book review at Craftsman online dot com.
Just go to the blog. You can also help us
out and our goal to get Patreon subscribers. No more
commercials from me, more Craftsman Online podcast for you. That's
the offer. Just five dollars a month to support the
(38:25):
show on Patreon, and we thank you in advance. I'm
right worship for Brother Michael Lars until next time. But
peace and harmony prevail.
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