August 18, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode, we speak with RW Robert Seibold of the Scottish Rite Northern Masonic Jurisdiction about their in-depth research into the Masonic membership challenge. We'll discuss how their findings, influenced by works like Robert Putnam's "Bowling Alone" and "Join or Die," are providing crucial insights. Bro. Seibold also sheds light on his work with the Grand Lodge of New York's Strategic Planning committee, which is formulating a comprehensive recommendation to the Grand Master on how to navigate this critical issue.
Show notes:
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/craftsmen-online-podcast--4822031/support.
Show notes:
- Join us on Patreon. Start your FREE seven day trial to the Craftsmen Online Podcast and get instant access to our bonus content! Whether it's a one time donation or you become a Patreon Subscriber, we appreciate your support.
- Visit the Craftsmen Online website to learn more about our next Reading Room event, New York Masonic History and our Masonic Education blog!
- Follow the Craftsmen Online Podcast on Spotify.
- Subscribe to the Craftsmen Online Podcast on Apple Podcasts.
- Follow Craftsmen Online on YouTube, hit subscribe and get notified the next time we go LIVE with a podcast recording!
- Yes, we're on Tik Tok and Instagram.
- Get our latest announcements and important updates in your inbox with the Craftsmen Online Newsletter.
- Email the host, RW Michael Arce! Yes, we will read your email and may even reach out to be a guest on a future episode.
- Don't forget to use the promo code CRAFTSMEN to receive free shipping with your first order from Bricks Masons!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/craftsmen-online-podcast--4822031/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Launch, Concordant Body, a Pendant Body,
Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot Com.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only Masonic
podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York. I'm
your host, right Worshipful Brother, Michael Lars. You probably saw
the show title for this episode. You're like, Wow, these
guys are getting a hardcore here.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Join or Die.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
No, No, No, not like that. We're going to be
borrowing some themes here. One is Yes. If you're a
fan of Robert Putnam, The Bowling Alone book, or you've
seen the documentary Joiner Die on Netflix, you're really gonna
dig this conversation with our guests this week. Who joins
us from the Scottish Rite, Northern Masonic Jurisdiction. He is
the Assistant Director of Membership Development for the Supreme Council.
(01:04):
He's a thirty third degree Mason. He's an MSA. He
is a newly minted Right Worshipful at Large for the
Grand Lodge of New York, and he's an all around.
Great guy. He's a man with several titles, but just
one name, Bob Siebold. Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I am totally just call me Bob when I travel.
Greatest title ever received his brother. Just call me Bob
and show me where the bathroom is because I've been
in my car for four hours, so you know. And
they'll all say, sure, you know, so it's we're in
good shade. But no, absolutely call me Bob.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
And I have to say the newly minted part. I
was there at the Grand Lodge of New York Session
GEEZ back in May early May when Bob was announced
on the spot as one of our new right Worshipful
Brothers at Large for Most Worshipful Stephen Adam Rubin. And
a lot of the reason why you got that special
title is because of the work that you put into
(01:53):
the subject for this podcast. As we get ready to
talk about retention membership development, however you want to look
at it based on a lot of the research that's
been going on with the Scottish righte Northern Masonic jurisdiction.
For our listeners in the know, they'll kind of recognize
you from a few years ago where you came on
the podcast to talk about this initiative. What are some
(02:14):
of the trends that you've now seen at the Scottish
Right when it comes to the work going into increased
membership or improve retention.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
The big thing at fraternity today is everyone's saying that
Freemasonry is dying because of death, and that is partially true,
partially true. Well, what we're finding is is that we
can bring men into fraternity, but we're not so great
at retaining them in fraternity. We looked at that very,
very hard. I actually worked with several people at the
(02:45):
Supreme Council, some of our actives and whatnot, and we
realize that if we don't start retaining our members, that's
a bigger problem than actually losing them to death or MPD.
So retention has really risen to the top of our conversation.
Realize that retention and quite frankly restoration of men who
have gone sideways in their Masonic membership for whatever reason,
(03:08):
they lose their job, they move away, there's a loss
of interest, whatever it might be. If they do rekindle
that membership back, we have a great opportunity to bring
them back not only into the craft, but also bring
them back into Scottish Ride if they previously had a
Scottish Ride membership. So recruitment is a big piece. We
can talk about that certainly tonight, but restoration is huge
and also you know that whole retention piece of making
(03:31):
sure that we retain our members and give them the
kind of journey that they're looking for. Quite frankly, what's.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Always fascinating to me is there's many different camps on
the membership or the decline or the contraction or whatever
you want to call it that's happening in freemasonry. Some
people try to explain it away as like, oh, well,
it's just part of the natural ebb and flow of
any kind of membership that would happen in any kind
of organization, which, okay, there could be some fact and
(03:57):
some numbers that would support that. It's going back to
what masonry was. It wasn't really meant for everybody. There
was these explosions that were happening with the baby boomer
generation and those that fought in World War Two, and
they came home and those men wanted to join something,
and they came to Missono calls and it became more
of a social setting and it changed. And then there's
the rest of us that are going, well, hey, we're
(04:18):
closing the doors literally on histories in communities. There's men
who have been a part of this organization, this fraternity
for over one hundred years or more. We have generations
invested in this, and we're just going to say, well,
you know, this is just a natural part of things.
And there's some of us that are standing up and saying, well,
what can we do.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
One of the things that really scares me a lot, Michael,
is what I call a generational transfer of knowledge. I
hope thirty years from now that there's not five guys
sitting in this beautiful lodge room going okay, now we're Masons.
Now what do we do because there's no one there
to transfer that knowledge of how does a lodge work,
how does a value work, how does a York right
body work? What does the shrine? Really?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Do?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We need to have men in place that have can
transfer that knowledge when they're still with us. All right,
So these new men coming in understand, you know, how
do you stand in a in a Masonic lodge? How
do you vote? All? Right? When do we use signs
of recognition? Why does one someone called right worshiple and
anyone called worshiple. You know, why do we have a
(05:21):
worshiple master? What does all that mean? So we need
to have that transfer of knowledge from one generation to
the other, and that truly what scares me, and I
agree with what you're saying, that could be lost to antiquity,
and that's what we don't want to do. And quite frankly,
I think freemasonry has touched so many facets of society.
We've done so much for the world, quite frankly, and
and it's all been good. With the hospitals that we've built,
(05:43):
the foundations that we have, we've made, we've we've created,
the people that we have, we have touched positively in
the world. I think that Freemasonry is a great story
to tell. And if we're not telling that story and
we're not talking about our legacy and our traditions, that
can that can be an issue. So that's where the
retention piece and the mentoring piece really plays a big
part in that because you know, I'll often say to
(06:05):
a lodge or to a Scottish ripe valley, if you're
not retaining your members, eventually, I don't know if you
got the memo we're all going to die, all right,
what that's going to happen? Okay, at the end of
the day, what we've really got to think about is,
you know, why we're here and why we have the opportunity.
How do we mentor these young men? How do we
mentor this new generation that really wants to embrace what
we have? Quite frankly, and I'm kind of leaning into
(06:27):
what the millennials are thinking, but we want to make
sure that we're doing that. So because we don't, we
really will be a footnote in history. Well, we're going
to be a special on the History Channel thirty from now.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And one of the other things that's really fascinating to
me about this is that it kind of is a
Blue Lodge centric problem. And when I say blue Lodge
centric problem is that it starts there that if we
can't attract and engage and retain this brother through those
first three degrees and then beyond, there is no future
for our concordant and appendent bodies. But when it comes
(06:58):
to trying to provide a roadmap or doing the tough
work of the research and getting it's the scottishipe Northern
Masonic Jurisdiction that seems to be rolling up their sleeves
and taking an active lead in this.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yes, well, I mean you take our not just a
man of Mason program. I mean that's a phenomenal program
where this collateral material that we will give you a
lodge with the support of a valley, and there's printic collateral,
there's social media collateral, there's banners that you can get
and it's all free of chart. Because we know that
the pool that we pull from is getting smaller and smaller,
(07:33):
and spar I can't go down to the Lions Club
and say, hey, you want to become a Scottish righte Mason.
I can't go to a rotary meeting and say, hey,
guess what would you like to become a Scottish righte Mason.
It just doesn't work, all right. So I've got a
specific pool that my ambassador is what we call them,
and the ones who go to the blue lodges and
really tuk up Scottish ripe for or membership. These men
only have a very very small pool to pull from,
(07:54):
and unfortunately, year over a year, Arrear, it's gotten smaller.
So one of our first charges, quite frankly, I think,
is to help build those blue lodges. I was just
some training over the weekend. I did it with the
Valley of Michigan and we talked about, you know, one
of the first things that a Scottish Ride ambassador does
there are there really are frontline, frontline man. They're the
ones that are going into the blue lodges and saying,
(08:16):
you know, let me talk to you about the value
of Scottish righte membership. And I said to him, I said,
you know, your number one priority is to create Scottish
ripe Masons. But I said, in a linear perspective, you
also really need to say, Okay, what can I do
to help those fledgling and those those weak lodges. Let
me talk about them, not just a man of Mason program,
what can we do to partner with them, to go
(08:37):
into their communities and start to really talk about blue
lodge freemasoning. And that's you're right, that's where it all starts.
That's where it all starts. And the Scottish Ride has
done a phenomenal job at finding out, you know, where
are those areas that want to embrace freemasonry, that have
a synergistic relationship with what we're all about I mean,
I can tell you I just wrote something today about this.
(08:58):
You know, we've got first response wonders. They love what
we're about. First responders love freemas ring. The overarching question
is is are we going to them and talking to
them about the attributes of membership. Then you've got military
active military, and you've got military veterans. They love the structure,
they love the history, they love the Order of Freemasonry.
But are we going out and a again, we are
(09:20):
we talking to them? And then certainly, you know, the
millennials are Our marketing communications group did a phenomenal job
at finding out research about millennials. There really are sweet spot.
The millennials like what we're about. They like the charitable aspect,
they like the historical aspect, They like the journey that
Freemasonry is created. What we've got to do, though, is
reach out to them and say, you know what, it's
(09:40):
not going to be your granddad's lodge. We're going to
open up our doors because we want to open up
our hearts and minds to what you want to do,
just like someone did for me. I've been a Mason
over forty years. You know, forty years ago I was
allowed to come in and have my own ideas. We
ought to allow these these younger, younger folks, these this
new generation, the millennials, to do the same thing because
freemasonry is changing, it's apps for changing.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And brother Bobby did such a good job of setting
up asking and answering your own question. I was like,
I'm not going to be able to use this analogy
for someone who's just listening that has an interest in freemasonry, like,
what are they talking about? Blue Lodge Freemasonry Scottish write like,
here's how I would describe it to where I think
ninety percent of people listening will get. It's the difference
(10:22):
between being a white card Costco member and the black
executive card Costco member.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I love that that's one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
At the end of the day, you're all Costco members, right.
But in Blue Lodge, which is where the first three
degrees of Freemasonry take place, I would say you do
have very engaged brothers. So you will have some guys
that are the black card VIPs man. They are in
there every weekend shop and they buy everything. They're so
brand loyal. But a majority are probably also going to
be the white card holders. That this is all they
(10:52):
do in freemasonry. They may be passively attending meetings or
not fully engaged with all of the functions of their lodge,
which is fine. What makes it interesting is when you
go up to the Scottish Right that's where all the
that's like the black part VIP club level there for
costco members. So what I find fascinating is that maybe
(11:12):
what we're doing if we stay in that costco membership analogy,
is are we just not doing a good enough job
of explaining the benefits of being a more engaged members
that part of the problem.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Well, it could be. I think you know, one of
the things that I teach my ambassadors might have them
in training, is I say, you know, when I first
joined Scottish ars, hey, you know you got to join.
You know, let me let me bunch in the ribs
and let's move on. You know you've got to do this,
sign the petition to get me on a rippey buck.
You know those days are over. I mean, now, when
when you're talking to a millennial or whoever it might be,
(11:44):
you've got to explain the value of what our program
is about, all right, Because the Scottish righte is tremendously
value you know, value rich. If you think about the
programs that we have, the self development programs that we offer,
the charitable endeavors that we're involved in, the national programs
that we're involved. Then how we touch freemasonry as a family,
for instance, with the not just a Man of Macon
(12:04):
program Beafreemason dot org, we had a we spend a
lot of time and resources on those things. We care
about the whole thing. So I agree with you that that,
you know, it's somebody who's very serious about about fraternity
and wants to get the big picture and wants to
really really throw more light on that journey. I couldn't
agree with you more. You know, It's it's interesting when
(12:24):
I do presentations for Lodges and I took you know,
Scottish ode is twenty nine degrees, six core values, what
extraordinary life and and guys will go raise their handle
to go. Does that mean I get twenty nine degrees
in a weekend? And I'm like, well, no, that's not
what we're saying. It's a marathon. It's it's it's certainly
not a sprint. But but you know, each one of those,
each one of those degrees is going to tell you
something a little bit different about yourself and about the
(12:46):
fraternity and how you should acton walk and talk as
a man. I said, I've watched all those degrees multiple
times and they always teach me something different, literally every
time I watched. So so that I think is what
embraces these men and say, you know what I want
that I want to learn more. The other thing that's
interesting is to the converse of what you're saying. I
go into lodges where I'll do a presentation and I'll
(13:09):
say what you know, if you'd like to see me
after the meeting, Robert downstairs, you know, having coffee and cake,
please come up with me and I talk to you
about you know, the value of membership and how you
join and you know the secretary is I'm walking out
of the room and go you're not going to get
anybody to join. I'll go, why you know, because you know,
you know, we know that if you Scottish white guys
come in, you're going to You're gonna suck the life
out of these guys and are not going to come back.
(13:30):
You know that means we're going to lose them, you know,
And I'll be like, well, that's not necessarily true. I said,
you know, what we find in our research is that
men who actually are very involved in a concordant body
not only stay in the fraternity longer, but they're actually
more dedicated to their blue lodge than they were before
joining a concording body. So really, what you're cementing is
is you're cementing men for life as opposed to five, six, seven,
(13:53):
maybe ten years and they go, I've had enough, you know,
I'm out. So actually I agree with you. I see
where you're coming from. But the concordant body story, I
think is it's really the foothold that keeps men involved.
You know, I truly believe that whatever whatever your passion is,
whether it's Scottish Wrighte where there's the shrine, when it's
the yourk right bodies broad out, I don't care what
it is. Pick your poison, but at the end of
(14:14):
the day, you're gonna stay with your blue lodge. You're
gonna be more active because of that comportant body connection.
So I know that for a fact. I've got the
data to prove that. So that's one hundred percent for sure.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Hey, it's right worship for Brother Michael RS. Before you
hit skip, please hear me out. I am doing a
commercial about not wanting to do commercials anymore, and this
is where I need your help. Not sure if you
know this, but the Craftsman Online podcast is on Patreon
at Craftsmen Online. And here's the deal. I'm hoping to
get twenty Patreon subscribers this month and then you'll hear
(14:54):
more of our podcasts and less commercials like this. So
can you help me get there? It's five bucks a
month to support the Craftsman Online Podcast on Patreon. Seriously,
that's less than a cost to buy anything to eat
right now, drinks out with the friend or parking for
one lodge meeting. You're gonna get ad free episodes yep,
(15:15):
You'll never hear another commercial for home internet, fava beans
or some wacky political ad that I have no control over.
And you'll get access to our full back catalog of
subscriber extra episodes with select guests. Get the link to
start your free seven day trial. Join us this month
for just five dollars on Patreon. It's the Craftsman Online podcast.
(15:36):
All right, let's make this happen. We've got up with
(15:57):
right Worshiplip brother, the newly minted Right Worshiplip Brother Bob Siebold,
who's also a thirty third degree Freemason and most importantly,
the Assistant Director of Membership and Retention for the Scottish
Right Northern Masonic Jurisdiction Supreme Council. I think I got
that and somewhat of an order we're.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Going to get. He's a Masonic bling for that, so
you can walk around with a new metal.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
My goodness, I'm going to need a Masonic breath match.
That's some oxygen, and we're here to talk about the
membership issue. I am lucky to work with him on
the Grand Lodge of New York Strategic Planning Committee, and
I should say we're all lucky that he's sharing his
information that he's taking from Scottish Right and seeing how
we can address this issue on a Blue Lodge level.
(16:38):
If you're watching us on YouTube live one of our streamers,
don't worry. We're going to have some charts and numbers
that Bob has provided walk us through some of these
data points.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
So what you're going to be looking at is the
first round is data from the Grand Lodge of New York.
And what you'll notice is, and I apologize a bit
of an eye chart, but if you work from the
my spreed from the left to the right, So if
you work from twenty twenty five or to nineteen ninety,
this is the Grand Lodge of New York percentage of
retain members by year joined. So if we look at
(17:07):
twenty twenty four, all right, we retained of all the
men that joined Freemason in the Grand Lodge of New
York in twenty twenty four, we retained ninety nine percent
of all right, because you're always going to have that
one percent that said, you know what, I thought, this
was something different. This isn't for me. I lost my job,
I'm moving out of state, and Wednesdays is the lodge night.
I got to wash my air. Who knows. There's a
(17:27):
bunch of different reasons why they're not going to come
to it a lot. What's interesting though about this graphic,
and we'll show the Northern Masoonic jurisdiction as well, And
this is where you'll see how the story doesn't really
change quite frankly. What's interesting, and it's also disturbing at
the same time, is from twenty twenty four to nineteen
ninety will work back or either way, it doesn't matter.
We actually, year over year over year over year, lose
(17:51):
more men in fraternity in the Grand Lodge of New
York to retention than we do to death or or
we lose or to other losses as we put it.
All right, So for instance, when you go this starts
in twenty twenty four, forty five percent of our men
are gone gone, all right, because the retention is just
it's just not there, all right. And you'll see the
(18:12):
numbers fluctuate, but they're get around fifty percent. Now, someone
can look at this graph and say, well, as the
years go backwards and they go to nineteen ninety, you
know men are going to be passing away. That's correct, however,
and that line does go up. However, though the retention
story still stays the same. We're not retaining members as
well as we could. That's why when I when I
(18:33):
go through this slide deck with anyone, whether it's a
Scottish write audience or a Grand Lodge audience, I'll say,
you know, it's not a death problem. It's a retention problem.
And that sounds kind of kind of strange when I
say that, but when I show them these slides, unfortunately
you can't hear a cricket in the room because everyone
is like, wow, you know this is this is unbelieve.
It's almost a gasp when you show them this. But
(18:53):
it's the truth.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
If I could just jump in real quick. When we
talk about NPD for people unfamiliar with it, is Bob
mentioned that's non payment of dues and yes it's something
that you could drop because it's not that you didn't
just pay this year, but you also didn't pay for
many years beforehand, and the Lodge has been trying to
get in touch with you to find out what's going on.
So people that get dropped from non payment of dues,
(19:16):
they are basically as the kids these days say they
are ghosting the fraternity.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
That's exactly correct. That's a great analogy. And I'm not
above pleasures or so I'm stealing that. I love that,
So that's awesome. You know about one hundred percent, you're right,
they're ghosting. Again, this is just not about Freemasonrainy with
the Blue Lodge. It's also affects, you know, the concordant bodies.
So again this is the NMJ twenty twenty four to
(19:41):
nineteen ninety, and you'll notice it's almost identical. It's almost
identical some time. What I wish what I should do
is I should do a layover a lay of NMJ
versus the Grand Lodge, and I'd be curious to see
how close they are. But the percentages are there, and
it's that downward slow, which is unfortunate. And you'll se
see the same story. It was interesting when I was
(20:03):
talking about this. I was we have a thing at
the Supreme Council called Midiweek, and that's when all our
committees come in they talk about all different aspects of
or keeps the fraternity moving. And when we were talking
about this, I'm on two membership committees, and it was interesting.
The Sovereign Grand Commander, Illustrious wal Wheeler was in the
room and he looked at this. He's seen this data
and I'm going through it, and he goes, Bob, can
(20:24):
you stop for a minute, And I said sure, and
he said, you know, Bob's being kind. He's only talking
about the suspension line, the blue line. He says, you
really want to know what keeps me up at night?
What makes me sleep with the light on is take
the orange line death and the deceased line. Now that's
a problem. And what he's one hundred percent right? Death
we can't stop, all right, that's going to happen. It's
the natural cycle of life. However, we do know that
(20:48):
the suspension line we can stop. And I'll tell you something.
It's it's very simple. We know that if we communicate
with brothers, they're going to stay. We know that if
we offer them a strong program, they're going to stay,
all right. We know that if we offer them value,
they're going to stay. And it's as simple as that.
That's why in the NMG we have a program called
(21:08):
the Brother or Brother Calling program. We make sure that
our values are calling all their members at least once
or twice a year to check in and say, hey,
how are you doing, what's going on? How are you?
How are you? You? And I have been in the
Grand Lodge Building of New York City down in New
York City, our own Grand Lodge Building, and you can
tell a lodge that's striving because there's chatter in the room.
You can tell a lodge that's dying because it's quiet.
(21:30):
All right, there's nothing going on, and what they're doing
is is they're engaging their members with great public speakers,
They're engaging their their their members with great programming. They're
bringing something into the lodge that everyone says. You know what,
I'll put on a suit and I'll drive down to
twenty third Street in Manhattan. I'll find a place to park,
you know, I'll deal with congestion pricing, and I'll go
to the city. And you know what, because I really
(21:51):
want to I really want to be at my lodge.
I want to be around these men, but also I
also want to hear what's what's going to go on tonight.
I commonly kid around and I say, you know, no
one wants to put on a suit, drive out in
a cold winter night, go to a lodge building, sit
there and you know, seventy five dollars at a rainbow girls,
pay the heating bill, complain that the oil prices are
too high, close the lodge, and then go downstairs in
(22:13):
the plum cake and drink coffee. Nobody wants to do that,
all right, And if you do that consistently, you're going
to lose people. You're absolutely going to lose people. So
it's simple, it's just simple communication. Great programming asking these
members what do you want? What are you here for?
What are you looking for? Especially with the new generation
that's coming in these listen. I have three kids and
two of them are millennials, and when I ask them
(22:34):
about Freemason, that's what they'll say to me, Dad, I'm
really interested and what your degrees are all about. I'm
really interested in the historical aspect of what the degree
is about. You know, I'm interested in the philosophical side
of what your degrees are about. So if my lodge,
my mother lodge, if they come into my lodge, we've
got to change up the way we do things one
hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
If you're looking for some way to turn this battleship around,
and we know it takes a mile to do that
in open water or aircraft carrier, here's a quick way
to do it. Get back to the basic, you know,
talk about the experience, the ritual, what it means. Give
those simple lessons for launches. You know you'll hear guys say, well,
we can't afford to this, we can't understandable. You don't
have to do a table lodge or fest the board
before or after. You know, there are other things that
(23:13):
you can accomplish. My question is I look at this
and I hear I've been a Mason for ten years
now myself. I've heard about this membership issue since you know,
I finished taking that third degree obligation. It seemed like
everybody had been talking about it. I kind of equated
to other things that are natural phenomenons that are occurring,
some of them man made others maybe it's just the
(23:35):
environment or or God putting his thumb on the scale.
But where are we when it comes to the scale
in this membership crisis? You deal with this every day,
like how much time or is there time for us
to turn this around?
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I will often say, and I mean this with every
fiber in my body, I think Freemasony's best days are
still ahead of us, all right. And I look at
life from a I'm a the glass is always half full,
it's not half him, right. I think that the days
of let me break this down, I think the days
of us having you know, one hundred and ninety thousand,
you know, Masons in a grand lodge. I think those
(24:09):
are those days are gone. I'll wave that white flag,
all right, but I'll tell you something. I think a
lot of those men joined Freemasonry because it was just
the thing to do, all right. I remember the night
I joined DEVAA. I'll never forget this. I joined in Brooklyn,
New York. I belonged, to tell you, Roosevelt Chapter in Bayridge, Brooklyn.
And I walked into the lodge building and I'm looking
up at the past masters of bay Ridge Lodge and
(24:30):
I go, that's our butcher. That's my post man, that's
our milkman. That's my father's that's my father's lawyer, that's
the man who owns the store next to my father's
shoudl home. And I'm like, I had no idea that
these were men were Masons, all right. I don't even
know if they were really acted. They were probably active
at one time as they were master of the lodge,
but I never knew they were Masons. And it was
it almost fogged my brain that I literally knew like
(24:53):
an entire row of these men because I knew them
outside in my in my world as a kid growing up.
But I don't know if and I'm not saying it
didn't mean something to be for them to be a Mason.
But I think today what we've done is we're there's
a there's a sub section of people that are now saying,
you know what, I'm not joining this because I have to.
I'm joining this because I want to. In my lodge.
(25:15):
I'd rather have a hundred guys who go you know,
I really want to be part of this because I
really love what freemasonry is about. I love the community
aspect of it. I love the ritual aspect of it,
I love the historical aspect of it. And those are
the kind of men I think we need to reach
out to. Are there one hundred and ninety thousand of them?
I'm not sure. Maybe there is that there is. Well,
that's awesome. I think the way we find them and
the way we make our membership roles go up, is
(25:37):
by presenting Freemasonry in a modern way. We've got to
say to individuals who are interested in our fraternity, you
know what, this is the way we used to do things.
Our core competencies are going to stay the same, but
we want your opinion. We want you to help us
make the lodge, lodge journey better, the lodge in the
community better.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
All Right, The Craftsman on my podcast proudly sponsored by
Bricksmasons dot Com I've actually boughten one of these from
bricks Mason so I can testify their aprons are very
nice quality. They're crafted for comfort, durability, and of course elegance.
(26:17):
I got one of their all white leather aprons with
the nice officer style belt so that I can bring
it and wear it to lodges and I go to visit.
You can get yours at twenty percent off right now
at bricksmasons dot com. You don't need a code, just
drop what you like in your shopping cart and the
sale price is already applied at checkout. Twenty percent off
aprons at start at just thirty dollars now at bricksmasons
(26:41):
dot com. That's interesting you went there, because I went.
(27:01):
I was going back to the Joiner Die with Bob
Putnam and you know, as a Freemason, as someone this
inerfraternal organization, watching his whole outline of like step step step,
that charts are all going down and it was that
last light. He's like, well, but yet while we're in
decline and we might be in this, nobody wants to
join the non Joiners. He's like, the good news is
(27:23):
we're going to be bottom out. And then we'll start
to go back up. Do you feel that we have
this verge that there'll be a return to groups and
the call to want to be a part of a
social organization.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I think everyone got real tired after the pandemic. I
think everyone didn't like being in their houses. I think
everybody looks Zoom was great and all these different profile
or software programs that we have to talk to one another.
But I think everyone now wants to get out and
experience the world. I was talking to a young lady
who's involved in travel industry, and she said to me,
(27:58):
she said, try to bok a hotel in a major
city like Vegas or Dallas, Texas. Basically he can't get
a hotel room because people are traveling, and they're saying,
you know what I had all those years missed during COVID,
Now I want to catch up. I think that there
are men that are saying, you know what I put
off being a part of something. My great grandfather was
amazing because I have his ring, Or my dad was
a mason, or my next door neighbor was a mason,
(28:20):
or my science teacher in high school was amazing. You
know what? They had to be something to this, I
want to find out more about it. They I don't
think they understand how to go about finding out about
who we are. And I think sometimes unless someone is
actually trained or really good in public speaking to present
who we are in a logical, strategic way, that's that's
quite frankly something that someone would want to gravitate towards.
(28:43):
I mean, I truly let's let's let let me let's
think of it this way. If you and I were
to knock on a lodge door and we said to
a lodge, what do you do? And we heard nothing?
When I joined that group, probably not all right. But
if we went down the street and we knocked on
another lodge door and they said, oh, yeah, come on in.
We have people invested in the community. We're part of
(29:03):
the community day. You know, we help clean up a part,
we have a reading program for children. You know, we
we work with what we call concordant bodies, and you know,
it's a way you can, you know, expand your horizons
within the fraternity. And you know what, we want younger
members to come in. You know, they're they're welcome. It's
a big difference to those two lodges. Let's be honest.
I mean, that's the kind of lodge I would want
(29:24):
to join. Oh you get a laugh at this. When
I was a young Mason, I remember, before I actually
became a Mason, I remember somebody said to me which
lodge you're joining? And I told him and he said,
it's a good lodge, he says, but you want to
know the truth, I said, what's that? He goes, find
out from your friends who are Masons the lodge it
has the most money and the oldest guys, And just
be really patient, he says, and then you'll be able
(29:44):
to run it the way you want. And I said, well,
you know, I don't want to wait around ten years
for everybody to die. I don't want that. I said,
you know, I want this to be a great experience
and a great journey from day one. And I was
very blessed to get into a really terrific lodge, so
I mean, which was a which is a great lodge
in Brooklyn, New York. So you know, very very lucky
to do that. So you know, I think again, when
(30:06):
I joined, and I was a DMA guy, I thought
I knew for current, but Freemason was a totally different bag.
And you know what. I was very blessed to have
a great mentor. I was very blessed to join a
great lodge that embraced me and said what are you
looking for? What do you want out of it? I
knew a lot of guys in the lodge, so it
was it was a great experience.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Thanks again to my guest this week, right worship of
Brother Bob Seabald for joining us on the Craftsman Online podcast.
We've got a goal this month and you can help us.
I am trying to no longer have to read commercials
anymore for our audience. And what do you get, Well,
you get ad free listening and access to a huge
back catalog of extra subscriber episodes like this one. We
have one with Bob Seabald where he talks more about
(30:46):
Join or Die And if you enjoyed this conversation, you'll
dig it on Thursday when the bonus hits. It's just
five dollars a month to support us on Patreon and
you can start your free seven day trial and the
notes for this episode until next Monday. Let peace and
harmon prevail.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
H
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Launch, Concordant Body, a Pendant Body,
Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot Com.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only Masonic
podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York. I'm
your host, right Worshipful Brother, Michael Lars. You probably saw
the show title for this episode. You're like, Wow, these
guys are getting a hardcore here.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Join or Die.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
No, No, No, not like that. We're going to be
borrowing some themes here. One is Yes. If you're a
fan of Robert Putnam, The Bowling Alone book, or you've
seen the documentary Joiner Die on Netflix, you're really gonna
dig this conversation with our guests this week. Who joins
us from the Scottish Rite, Northern Masonic Jurisdiction. He is
the Assistant Director of Membership Development for the Supreme Council.
(01:04):
He's a thirty third degree Mason. He's an MSA. He
is a newly minted Right Worshipful at Large for the
Grand Lodge of New York, and he's an all around.
Great guy. He's a man with several titles, but just
one name, Bob Siebold. Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I am totally just call me Bob when I travel.
Greatest title ever received his brother. Just call me Bob
and show me where the bathroom is because I've been
in my car for four hours, so you know. And
they'll all say, sure, you know, so it's we're in
good shade. But no, absolutely call me Bob.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
And I have to say the newly minted part. I
was there at the Grand Lodge of New York Session
GEEZ back in May early May when Bob was announced
on the spot as one of our new right Worshipful
Brothers at Large for Most Worshipful Stephen Adam Rubin. And
a lot of the reason why you got that special
title is because of the work that you put into
(01:53):
the subject for this podcast. As we get ready to
talk about retention membership development, however you want to look
at it based on a lot of the research that's
been going on with the Scottish righte Northern Masonic jurisdiction.
For our listeners in the know, they'll kind of recognize
you from a few years ago where you came on
the podcast to talk about this initiative. What are some
(02:14):
of the trends that you've now seen at the Scottish
Right when it comes to the work going into increased
membership or improve retention.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
The big thing at fraternity today is everyone's saying that
Freemasonry is dying because of death, and that is partially true,
partially true. Well, what we're finding is is that we
can bring men into fraternity, but we're not so great
at retaining them in fraternity. We looked at that very,
very hard. I actually worked with several people at the
(02:45):
Supreme Council, some of our actives and whatnot, and we
realize that if we don't start retaining our members, that's
a bigger problem than actually losing them to death or MPD.
So retention has really risen to the top of our conversation.
Realize that retention and quite frankly restoration of men who
have gone sideways in their Masonic membership for whatever reason,
(03:08):
they lose their job, they move away, there's a loss
of interest, whatever it might be. If they do rekindle
that membership back, we have a great opportunity to bring
them back not only into the craft, but also bring
them back into Scottish Ride if they previously had a
Scottish Ride membership. So recruitment is a big piece. We
can talk about that certainly tonight, but restoration is huge
and also you know that whole retention piece of making
(03:31):
sure that we retain our members and give them the
kind of journey that they're looking for. Quite frankly, what's.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Always fascinating to me is there's many different camps on
the membership or the decline or the contraction or whatever
you want to call it that's happening in freemasonry. Some
people try to explain it away as like, oh, well,
it's just part of the natural ebb and flow of
any kind of membership that would happen in any kind
of organization, which, okay, there could be some fact and
(03:57):
some numbers that would support that. It's going back to
what masonry was. It wasn't really meant for everybody. There
was these explosions that were happening with the baby boomer
generation and those that fought in World War Two, and
they came home and those men wanted to join something,
and they came to Missono calls and it became more
of a social setting and it changed. And then there's
the rest of us that are going, well, hey, we're
(04:18):
closing the doors literally on histories in communities. There's men
who have been a part of this organization, this fraternity
for over one hundred years or more. We have generations
invested in this, and we're just going to say, well,
you know, this is just a natural part of things.
And there's some of us that are standing up and saying, well,
what can we do.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
One of the things that really scares me a lot, Michael,
is what I call a generational transfer of knowledge. I
hope thirty years from now that there's not five guys
sitting in this beautiful lodge room going okay, now we're Masons.
Now what do we do because there's no one there
to transfer that knowledge of how does a lodge work,
how does a value work, how does a York right
body work? What does the shrine? Really?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Do?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We need to have men in place that have can
transfer that knowledge when they're still with us. All right,
So these new men coming in understand, you know, how
do you stand in a in a Masonic lodge? How
do you vote? All? Right? When do we use signs
of recognition? Why does one someone called right worshiple and
anyone called worshiple. You know, why do we have a
(05:21):
worshiple master? What does all that mean? So we need
to have that transfer of knowledge from one generation to
the other, and that truly what scares me, and I
agree with what you're saying, that could be lost to antiquity,
and that's what we don't want to do. And quite frankly,
I think freemasonry has touched so many facets of society.
We've done so much for the world, quite frankly, and
and it's all been good. With the hospitals that we've built,
(05:43):
the foundations that we have, we've made, we've we've created,
the people that we have, we have touched positively in
the world. I think that Freemasonry is a great story
to tell. And if we're not telling that story and
we're not talking about our legacy and our traditions, that
can that can be an issue. So that's where the
retention piece and the mentoring piece really plays a big
part in that because you know, I'll often say to
(06:05):
a lodge or to a Scottish ripe valley, if you're
not retaining your members, eventually, I don't know if you
got the memo we're all going to die, all right,
what that's going to happen? Okay, at the end of
the day, what we've really got to think about is,
you know, why we're here and why we have the opportunity.
How do we mentor these young men? How do we
mentor this new generation that really wants to embrace what
we have? Quite frankly, and I'm kind of leaning into
(06:27):
what the millennials are thinking, but we want to make
sure that we're doing that. So because we don't, we
really will be a footnote in history. Well, we're going
to be a special on the History Channel thirty from now.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And one of the other things that's really fascinating to
me about this is that it kind of is a
Blue Lodge centric problem. And when I say blue Lodge
centric problem is that it starts there that if we
can't attract and engage and retain this brother through those
first three degrees and then beyond, there is no future
for our concordant and appendent bodies. But when it comes
(06:58):
to trying to provide a roadmap or doing the tough
work of the research and getting it's the scottishipe Northern
Masonic Jurisdiction that seems to be rolling up their sleeves
and taking an active lead in this.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yes, well, I mean you take our not just a
man of Mason program. I mean that's a phenomenal program
where this collateral material that we will give you a
lodge with the support of a valley, and there's printic collateral,
there's social media collateral, there's banners that you can get
and it's all free of chart. Because we know that
the pool that we pull from is getting smaller and smaller,
(07:33):
and spar I can't go down to the Lions Club
and say, hey, you want to become a Scottish righte Mason.
I can't go to a rotary meeting and say, hey,
guess what would you like to become a Scottish righte Mason.
It just doesn't work, all right. So I've got a
specific pool that my ambassador is what we call them,
and the ones who go to the blue lodges and
really tuk up Scottish ripe for or membership. These men
only have a very very small pool to pull from,
(07:54):
and unfortunately, year over a year, Arrear, it's gotten smaller.
So one of our first charges, quite frankly, I think,
is to help build those blue lodges. I was just
some training over the weekend. I did it with the
Valley of Michigan and we talked about, you know, one
of the first things that a Scottish Ride ambassador does
there are there really are frontline, frontline man. They're the
ones that are going into the blue lodges and saying,
(08:16):
you know, let me talk to you about the value
of Scottish righte membership. And I said to him, I said,
you know, your number one priority is to create Scottish
ripe Masons. But I said, in a linear perspective, you
also really need to say, Okay, what can I do
to help those fledgling and those those weak lodges. Let
me talk about them, not just a man of Mason program,
what can we do to partner with them, to go
(08:37):
into their communities and start to really talk about blue
lodge freemasoning. And that's you're right, that's where it all starts.
That's where it all starts. And the Scottish Ride has
done a phenomenal job at finding out, you know, where
are those areas that want to embrace freemasonry, that have
a synergistic relationship with what we're all about I mean,
I can tell you I just wrote something today about this.
(08:58):
You know, we've got first response wonders. They love what
we're about. First responders love freemas ring. The overarching question
is is are we going to them and talking to
them about the attributes of membership. Then you've got military
active military, and you've got military veterans. They love the structure,
they love the history, they love the Order of Freemasonry.
But are we going out and a again, we are
(09:20):
we talking to them? And then certainly, you know, the
millennials are Our marketing communications group did a phenomenal job
at finding out research about millennials. There really are sweet spot.
The millennials like what we're about. They like the charitable aspect,
they like the historical aspect, They like the journey that
Freemasonry is created. What we've got to do, though, is
reach out to them and say, you know what, it's
(09:40):
not going to be your granddad's lodge. We're going to
open up our doors because we want to open up
our hearts and minds to what you want to do,
just like someone did for me. I've been a Mason
over forty years. You know, forty years ago I was
allowed to come in and have my own ideas. We
ought to allow these these younger, younger folks, these this
new generation, the millennials, to do the same thing because
freemasonry is changing, it's apps for changing.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And brother Bobby did such a good job of setting
up asking and answering your own question. I was like,
I'm not going to be able to use this analogy
for someone who's just listening that has an interest in freemasonry, like,
what are they talking about? Blue Lodge Freemasonry Scottish write like,
here's how I would describe it to where I think
ninety percent of people listening will get. It's the difference
(10:22):
between being a white card Costco member and the black
executive card Costco member.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I love that that's one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
At the end of the day, you're all Costco members, right.
But in Blue Lodge, which is where the first three
degrees of Freemasonry take place, I would say you do
have very engaged brothers. So you will have some guys
that are the black card VIPs man. They are in
there every weekend shop and they buy everything. They're so
brand loyal. But a majority are probably also going to
be the white card holders. That this is all they
(10:52):
do in freemasonry. They may be passively attending meetings or
not fully engaged with all of the functions of their lodge,
which is fine. What makes it interesting is when you
go up to the Scottish Right that's where all the
that's like the black part VIP club level there for
costco members. So what I find fascinating is that maybe
(11:12):
what we're doing if we stay in that costco membership analogy,
is are we just not doing a good enough job
of explaining the benefits of being a more engaged members
that part of the problem.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Well, it could be. I think you know, one of
the things that I teach my ambassadors might have them
in training, is I say, you know, when I first
joined Scottish ars, hey, you know you got to join.
You know, let me let me bunch in the ribs
and let's move on. You know you've got to do this,
sign the petition to get me on a rippey buck.
You know those days are over. I mean, now, when
when you're talking to a millennial or whoever it might be,
(11:44):
you've got to explain the value of what our program
is about, all right, Because the Scottish righte is tremendously
value you know, value rich. If you think about the
programs that we have, the self development programs that we offer,
the charitable endeavors that we're involved in, the national programs
that we're involved. Then how we touch freemasonry as a family,
for instance, with the not just a Man of Macon
(12:04):
program Beafreemason dot org, we had a we spend a
lot of time and resources on those things. We care
about the whole thing. So I agree with you that that,
you know, it's somebody who's very serious about about fraternity
and wants to get the big picture and wants to
really really throw more light on that journey. I couldn't
agree with you more. You know, It's it's interesting when
(12:24):
I do presentations for Lodges and I took you know,
Scottish ode is twenty nine degrees, six core values, what
extraordinary life and and guys will go raise their handle
to go. Does that mean I get twenty nine degrees
in a weekend? And I'm like, well, no, that's not
what we're saying. It's a marathon. It's it's it's certainly
not a sprint. But but you know, each one of those,
each one of those degrees is going to tell you
something a little bit different about yourself and about the
(12:46):
fraternity and how you should acton walk and talk as
a man. I said, I've watched all those degrees multiple
times and they always teach me something different, literally every
time I watched. So so that I think is what
embraces these men and say, you know what I want
that I want to learn more. The other thing that's
interesting is to the converse of what you're saying. I
go into lodges where I'll do a presentation and I'll
(13:09):
say what you know, if you'd like to see me
after the meeting, Robert downstairs, you know, having coffee and cake,
please come up with me and I talk to you
about you know, the value of membership and how you
join and you know the secretary is I'm walking out
of the room and go you're not going to get
anybody to join. I'll go, why you know, because you know,
you know, we know that if you Scottish white guys
come in, you're going to You're gonna suck the life
out of these guys and are not going to come back.
(13:30):
You know that means we're going to lose them, you know,
And I'll be like, well, that's not necessarily true. I said,
you know, what we find in our research is that
men who actually are very involved in a concordant body
not only stay in the fraternity longer, but they're actually
more dedicated to their blue lodge than they were before
joining a concording body. So really, what you're cementing is
is you're cementing men for life as opposed to five, six, seven,
(13:53):
maybe ten years and they go, I've had enough, you know,
I'm out. So actually I agree with you. I see
where you're coming from. But the concordant body story, I
think is it's really the foothold that keeps men involved.
You know, I truly believe that whatever whatever your passion is,
whether it's Scottish Wrighte where there's the shrine, when it's
the yourk right bodies broad out, I don't care what
it is. Pick your poison, but at the end of
(14:14):
the day, you're gonna stay with your blue lodge. You're
gonna be more active because of that comportant body connection.
So I know that for a fact. I've got the
data to prove that. So that's one hundred percent for sure.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Hey, it's right worship for Brother Michael RS. Before you
hit skip, please hear me out. I am doing a
commercial about not wanting to do commercials anymore, and this
is where I need your help. Not sure if you
know this, but the Craftsman Online podcast is on Patreon
at Craftsmen Online. And here's the deal. I'm hoping to
get twenty Patreon subscribers this month and then you'll hear
(14:54):
more of our podcasts and less commercials like this. So
can you help me get there? It's five bucks a
month to support the Craftsman Online Podcast on Patreon. Seriously,
that's less than a cost to buy anything to eat
right now, drinks out with the friend or parking for
one lodge meeting. You're gonna get ad free episodes yep,
(15:15):
You'll never hear another commercial for home internet, fava beans
or some wacky political ad that I have no control over.
And you'll get access to our full back catalog of
subscriber extra episodes with select guests. Get the link to
start your free seven day trial. Join us this month
for just five dollars on Patreon. It's the Craftsman Online podcast.
(15:36):
All right, let's make this happen. We've got up with
(15:57):
right Worshiplip brother, the newly minted Right Worshiplip Brother Bob Siebold,
who's also a thirty third degree Freemason and most importantly,
the Assistant Director of Membership and Retention for the Scottish
Right Northern Masonic Jurisdiction Supreme Council. I think I got
that and somewhat of an order we're.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Going to get. He's a Masonic bling for that, so
you can walk around with a new metal.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
My goodness, I'm going to need a Masonic breath match.
That's some oxygen, and we're here to talk about the
membership issue. I am lucky to work with him on
the Grand Lodge of New York Strategic Planning Committee, and
I should say we're all lucky that he's sharing his
information that he's taking from Scottish Right and seeing how
we can address this issue on a Blue Lodge level.
(16:38):
If you're watching us on YouTube live one of our streamers,
don't worry. We're going to have some charts and numbers
that Bob has provided walk us through some of these
data points.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
So what you're going to be looking at is the
first round is data from the Grand Lodge of New York.
And what you'll notice is, and I apologize a bit
of an eye chart, but if you work from the
my spreed from the left to the right, So if
you work from twenty twenty five or to nineteen ninety,
this is the Grand Lodge of New York percentage of
retain members by year joined. So if we look at
(17:07):
twenty twenty four, all right, we retained of all the
men that joined Freemason in the Grand Lodge of New
York in twenty twenty four, we retained ninety nine percent
of all right, because you're always going to have that
one percent that said, you know what, I thought, this
was something different. This isn't for me. I lost my job,
I'm moving out of state, and Wednesdays is the lodge night.
I got to wash my air. Who knows. There's a
(17:27):
bunch of different reasons why they're not going to come
to it a lot. What's interesting though about this graphic,
and we'll show the Northern Masoonic jurisdiction as well, And
this is where you'll see how the story doesn't really
change quite frankly. What's interesting, and it's also disturbing at
the same time, is from twenty twenty four to nineteen
ninety will work back or either way, it doesn't matter.
We actually, year over year over year over year, lose
(17:51):
more men in fraternity in the Grand Lodge of New
York to retention than we do to death or or
we lose or to other losses as we put it.
All right, So for instance, when you go this starts
in twenty twenty four, forty five percent of our men
are gone gone, all right, because the retention is just
it's just not there, all right. And you'll see the
(18:12):
numbers fluctuate, but they're get around fifty percent. Now, someone
can look at this graph and say, well, as the
years go backwards and they go to nineteen ninety, you
know men are going to be passing away. That's correct, however,
and that line does go up. However, though the retention
story still stays the same. We're not retaining members as
well as we could. That's why when I when I
(18:33):
go through this slide deck with anyone, whether it's a
Scottish write audience or a Grand Lodge audience, I'll say,
you know, it's not a death problem. It's a retention problem.
And that sounds kind of kind of strange when I
say that, but when I show them these slides, unfortunately
you can't hear a cricket in the room because everyone
is like, wow, you know this is this is unbelieve.
It's almost a gasp when you show them this. But
(18:53):
it's the truth.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
If I could just jump in real quick. When we
talk about NPD for people unfamiliar with it, is Bob
mentioned that's non payment of dues and yes it's something
that you could drop because it's not that you didn't
just pay this year, but you also didn't pay for
many years beforehand, and the Lodge has been trying to
get in touch with you to find out what's going on.
So people that get dropped from non payment of dues,
(19:16):
they are basically as the kids these days say they
are ghosting the fraternity.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
That's exactly correct. That's a great analogy. And I'm not
above pleasures or so I'm stealing that. I love that,
So that's awesome. You know about one hundred percent, you're right,
they're ghosting. Again, this is just not about Freemasonrainy with
the Blue Lodge. It's also affects, you know, the concordant bodies.
So again this is the NMJ twenty twenty four to
(19:41):
nineteen ninety, and you'll notice it's almost identical. It's almost
identical some time. What I wish what I should do
is I should do a layover a lay of NMJ
versus the Grand Lodge, and I'd be curious to see
how close they are. But the percentages are there, and
it's that downward slow, which is unfortunate. And you'll se
see the same story. It was interesting when I was
(20:03):
talking about this. I was we have a thing at
the Supreme Council called Midiweek, and that's when all our
committees come in they talk about all different aspects of
or keeps the fraternity moving. And when we were talking
about this, I'm on two membership committees, and it was interesting.
The Sovereign Grand Commander, Illustrious wal Wheeler was in the
room and he looked at this. He's seen this data
and I'm going through it, and he goes, Bob, can
(20:24):
you stop for a minute, And I said sure, and
he said, you know, Bob's being kind. He's only talking
about the suspension line, the blue line. He says, you
really want to know what keeps me up at night?
What makes me sleep with the light on is take
the orange line death and the deceased line. Now that's
a problem. And what he's one hundred percent right? Death
we can't stop, all right, that's going to happen. It's
the natural cycle of life. However, we do know that
(20:48):
the suspension line we can stop. And I'll tell you something.
It's it's very simple. We know that if we communicate
with brothers, they're going to stay. We know that if
we offer them a strong program, they're going to stay,
all right. We know that if we offer them value,
they're going to stay. And it's as simple as that.
That's why in the NMG we have a program called
(21:08):
the Brother or Brother Calling program. We make sure that
our values are calling all their members at least once
or twice a year to check in and say, hey,
how are you doing, what's going on? How are you?
How are you? You? And I have been in the
Grand Lodge Building of New York City down in New
York City, our own Grand Lodge Building, and you can
tell a lodge that's striving because there's chatter in the room.
You can tell a lodge that's dying because it's quiet.
(21:30):
All right, there's nothing going on, and what they're doing
is is they're engaging their members with great public speakers,
They're engaging their their their members with great programming. They're
bringing something into the lodge that everyone says. You know what,
I'll put on a suit and I'll drive down to
twenty third Street in Manhattan. I'll find a place to park,
you know, I'll deal with congestion pricing, and I'll go
to the city. And you know what, because I really
(21:51):
want to I really want to be at my lodge.
I want to be around these men, but also I
also want to hear what's what's going to go on tonight.
I commonly kid around and I say, you know, no
one wants to put on a suit, drive out in
a cold winter night, go to a lodge building, sit
there and you know, seventy five dollars at a rainbow girls,
pay the heating bill, complain that the oil prices are
too high, close the lodge, and then go downstairs in
(22:13):
the plum cake and drink coffee. Nobody wants to do that,
all right, And if you do that consistently, you're going
to lose people. You're absolutely going to lose people. So
it's simple, it's just simple communication. Great programming asking these
members what do you want? What are you here for?
What are you looking for? Especially with the new generation
that's coming in these listen. I have three kids and
two of them are millennials, and when I ask them
(22:34):
about Freemason, that's what they'll say to me, Dad, I'm
really interested and what your degrees are all about. I'm
really interested in the historical aspect of what the degree
is about. You know, I'm interested in the philosophical side
of what your degrees are about. So if my lodge,
my mother lodge, if they come into my lodge, we've
got to change up the way we do things one
hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
If you're looking for some way to turn this battleship around,
and we know it takes a mile to do that
in open water or aircraft carrier, here's a quick way
to do it. Get back to the basic, you know,
talk about the experience, the ritual, what it means. Give
those simple lessons for launches. You know you'll hear guys say, well,
we can't afford to this, we can't understandable. You don't
have to do a table lodge or fest the board
before or after. You know, there are other things that
(23:13):
you can accomplish. My question is I look at this
and I hear I've been a Mason for ten years
now myself. I've heard about this membership issue since you know,
I finished taking that third degree obligation. It seemed like
everybody had been talking about it. I kind of equated
to other things that are natural phenomenons that are occurring,
some of them man made others maybe it's just the
(23:35):
environment or or God putting his thumb on the scale.
But where are we when it comes to the scale
in this membership crisis? You deal with this every day,
like how much time or is there time for us
to turn this around?
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I will often say, and I mean this with every
fiber in my body, I think Freemasony's best days are
still ahead of us, all right. And I look at
life from a I'm a the glass is always half full,
it's not half him, right. I think that the days
of let me break this down, I think the days
of us having you know, one hundred and ninety thousand,
you know, Masons in a grand lodge. I think those
(24:09):
are those days are gone. I'll wave that white flag,
all right, but I'll tell you something. I think a
lot of those men joined Freemasonry because it was just
the thing to do, all right. I remember the night
I joined DEVAA. I'll never forget this. I joined in Brooklyn,
New York. I belonged, to tell you, Roosevelt Chapter in Bayridge, Brooklyn.
And I walked into the lodge building and I'm looking
up at the past masters of bay Ridge Lodge and
(24:30):
I go, that's our butcher. That's my post man, that's
our milkman. That's my father's that's my father's lawyer, that's
the man who owns the store next to my father's
shoudl home. And I'm like, I had no idea that
these were men were Masons, all right. I don't even
know if they were really acted. They were probably active
at one time as they were master of the lodge,
but I never knew they were Masons. And it was
it almost fogged my brain that I literally knew like
(24:53):
an entire row of these men because I knew them
outside in my in my world as a kid growing up.
But I don't know if and I'm not saying it
didn't mean something to be for them to be a Mason.
But I think today what we've done is we're there's
a there's a sub section of people that are now saying,
you know what, I'm not joining this because I have to.
I'm joining this because I want to. In my lodge.
(25:15):
I'd rather have a hundred guys who go you know,
I really want to be part of this because I
really love what freemasonry is about. I love the community
aspect of it. I love the ritual aspect of it,
I love the historical aspect of it. And those are
the kind of men I think we need to reach
out to. Are there one hundred and ninety thousand of them?
I'm not sure. Maybe there is that there is. Well,
that's awesome. I think the way we find them and
the way we make our membership roles go up, is
(25:37):
by presenting Freemasonry in a modern way. We've got to
say to individuals who are interested in our fraternity, you
know what, this is the way we used to do things.
Our core competencies are going to stay the same, but
we want your opinion. We want you to help us
make the lodge, lodge journey better, the lodge in the
community better.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
All Right, The Craftsman on my podcast proudly sponsored by
Bricksmasons dot Com I've actually boughten one of these from
bricks Mason so I can testify their aprons are very
nice quality. They're crafted for comfort, durability, and of course elegance.
(26:17):
I got one of their all white leather aprons with
the nice officer style belt so that I can bring
it and wear it to lodges and I go to visit.
You can get yours at twenty percent off right now
at bricksmasons dot com. You don't need a code, just
drop what you like in your shopping cart and the
sale price is already applied at checkout. Twenty percent off
aprons at start at just thirty dollars now at bricksmasons
(26:41):
dot com. That's interesting you went there, because I went.
(27:01):
I was going back to the Joiner Die with Bob
Putnam and you know, as a Freemason, as someone this
inerfraternal organization, watching his whole outline of like step step step,
that charts are all going down and it was that
last light. He's like, well, but yet while we're in
decline and we might be in this, nobody wants to
join the non Joiners. He's like, the good news is
(27:23):
we're going to be bottom out. And then we'll start
to go back up. Do you feel that we have
this verge that there'll be a return to groups and
the call to want to be a part of a
social organization.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I think everyone got real tired after the pandemic. I
think everyone didn't like being in their houses. I think
everybody looks Zoom was great and all these different profile
or software programs that we have to talk to one another.
But I think everyone now wants to get out and
experience the world. I was talking to a young lady
who's involved in travel industry, and she said to me,
(27:58):
she said, try to bok a hotel in a major
city like Vegas or Dallas, Texas. Basically he can't get
a hotel room because people are traveling, and they're saying,
you know what I had all those years missed during COVID,
Now I want to catch up. I think that there
are men that are saying, you know what I put
off being a part of something. My great grandfather was
amazing because I have his ring, Or my dad was
a mason, or my next door neighbor was a mason,
(28:20):
or my science teacher in high school was amazing. You
know what? They had to be something to this, I
want to find out more about it. They I don't
think they understand how to go about finding out about
who we are. And I think sometimes unless someone is
actually trained or really good in public speaking to present
who we are in a logical, strategic way, that's that's
quite frankly something that someone would want to gravitate towards.
(28:43):
I mean, I truly let's let's let let me let's
think of it this way. If you and I were
to knock on a lodge door and we said to
a lodge, what do you do? And we heard nothing?
When I joined that group, probably not all right. But
if we went down the street and we knocked on
another lodge door and they said, oh, yeah, come on in.
We have people invested in the community. We're part of
(29:03):
the community day. You know, we help clean up a part,
we have a reading program for children. You know, we
we work with what we call concordant bodies, and you know,
it's a way you can, you know, expand your horizons
within the fraternity. And you know what, we want younger
members to come in. You know, they're they're welcome. It's
a big difference to those two lodges. Let's be honest.
I mean, that's the kind of lodge I would want
(29:24):
to join. Oh you get a laugh at this. When
I was a young Mason, I remember, before I actually
became a Mason, I remember somebody said to me which
lodge you're joining? And I told him and he said,
it's a good lodge, he says, but you want to
know the truth, I said, what's that? He goes, find
out from your friends who are Masons the lodge it
has the most money and the oldest guys, And just
be really patient, he says, and then you'll be able
(29:44):
to run it the way you want. And I said, well,
you know, I don't want to wait around ten years
for everybody to die. I don't want that. I said,
you know, I want this to be a great experience
and a great journey from day one. And I was
very blessed to get into a really terrific lodge, so
I mean, which was a which is a great lodge
in Brooklyn, New York. So you know, very very lucky
to do that. So you know, I think again, when
(30:06):
I joined, and I was a DMA guy, I thought
I knew for current, but Freemason was a totally different bag.
And you know what. I was very blessed to have
a great mentor. I was very blessed to join a
great lodge that embraced me and said what are you
looking for? What do you want out of it? I
knew a lot of guys in the lodge, so it
was it was a great experience.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Thanks again to my guest this week, right worship of
Brother Bob Seabald for joining us on the Craftsman Online podcast.
We've got a goal this month and you can help us.
I am trying to no longer have to read commercials
anymore for our audience. And what do you get, Well,
you get ad free listening and access to a huge
back catalog of extra subscriber episodes like this one. We
have one with Bob Seabald where he talks more about
(30:46):
Join or Die And if you enjoyed this conversation, you'll
dig it on Thursday when the bonus hits. It's just
five dollars a month to support us on Patreon and
you can start your free seven day trial and the
notes for this episode until next Monday. Let peace and
harmon prevail.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
H
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.