September 8, 2025 • 32 mins
RW Jason Short, and his guests, RW's Michael LaRocco, Cliff Jacobs, and Yatri Trivedi for a conversation on, “The Bhagavad Gita.“ Watch the FULL VERSION and share it with your Lodge on our YouTube channel.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:27):
The commons, opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Launch, Concordant Body, a Pendant Body,
a Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot Com.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only Masonic
endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York. I'm your
host Righte Worsche for Brother Michael Arsa, and you've joined
us for a special presentation of the Craftsman Online reading Room.
The doors for our reading Room opened at the end
of July with a new discussion hosted by right Worshe
for Brother Jason Short. He's going to be catching up
with Right worship for Brothers Michael Lorocco, Cliff Jacobs, and
(01:20):
Yatri Trevetti on the Boga of Agita. This has been
a particular topic, subject area, whatever you want to call it.
That since I have been a freemason, I have wanted
to learn more about this. I too have visited lodges
and my home lodge here in the nation's capital, Saint
John's Lodge number eleven, we display a boga of a
(01:40):
Gita on our altar. I've always wondered, what is the
story behind that? What is the amazing light that is
inside this tradition? And those questions and so many more
get answered. Now you are only getting a thirty minute
window of this reading room discussion. The full version is
available on the Craftsman Online YouTube channel, which is at
(02:04):
craftsmen Online. If you need help navigating there, just open
up the notes for this episode. I've got the link
to see it all. Without further ado, I'm gonna let
our guests introduce themselves.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
I'm brother Yatri Triveli. I'm a past master of Joshua
Lodge number eight hundred and ninety out of New York.
I have the distinct honor of being named as the
first Hindu Grand Chaplain for New York as well, and
I'm also a member of an Asserti Lodge in New
Jersey in Spioradus number three five seven. I've been amazing
(02:38):
about seven years, but a lot of it feels familiar.
Plotting on ahead because it just grabs me so much.
I'm also a pundit, so I perform religious services for
brothers and sisters of the Hindu faith. I get to
be a preceptor for whatever the ritual needs might be.
(03:01):
And I'm excited to talk about the Guita today. It
is just a phenomenal text. Remember the first time when
I heard the words of the Gita, I was young boy.
I was watching my grandmother. She had put on bier
Chopra's rendition of the Mahabharat on TV. I was watching
(03:21):
alongside with her, and the words with their gravitas in
scene really captured me. And from there I started studying
the text with her.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Greeting is everyone. My name is Michael Laracco. I am
by profession, the executive director of the Chancellor Robadol Livingston
Masonic Library of Grand Lodge and in Masony I am
currently the staff officer for Nassau District, meaning that I
am a grand Steward of the Grand Lodge and I
teach the education there. I'm really excited about this event
because the Bagavad Gita was part of a very powerful
(03:55):
spiritual journey for me. Meant a lot to me, helped
me on my my spiritual path. And to come here
and now find it in a place that we could
discuss with brother Masons and how it affected masonry and
how masonry is affected by it, I'm really excited.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (04:12):
Hello.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
My name is Clifford Jacobs, illustrious thirty third degree member
of the Scottish Rite Valley of New York City. Been
a Mason now for thirty seven years, and I have
a particular interest in as a terrorik freemasonry. But I'm
looking forward to tonight's discussion about the Bagavat Gita.
Speaker 7 (04:36):
You know, it was really difficult to beare down. There's
a lot what we were going to talk about this evening.
With your help, we were able to come up with
a few selections to discuss this evening from chapter two,
which was I think we got the most submissions from
(04:58):
chapter two Acts, one of the most quoted passages in
the Gida is considered verses fifty five through seventy two,
and Gandhi said that just understanding that passage alone would
help to encapsulate all of the teachings into your life.
(05:22):
You have the right to work, but never to the
fruit of work. You should never engage in action for
the sake of reward, nor should you long for inaction.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
So I love this verse, one of those verses that
I read and woke something in me. He says it very,
very plainly.
Speaker 6 (05:43):
I like that.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
You know, Isranji actually translates the word is work guttermany
means actions. Usually you see that translates actions, but he
uses it in the working, operative sense of work, and
I think that is correct in the situation he says,
you have a right to a degata. Is the word
a degada a degata. I think in a modern lens
(06:08):
the word entitle is a little bit more apt. You
are entitled to do the work that is in your life,
but you are not entitled to the results of that work.
And that, it's most basic tells you if it's worth doing,
it's worth doing, whether things good or bad happen. And
(06:29):
if it's not worth doing, then it's worth doing something
else right. And that it's that that last section, you know,
do not let do not be swayed by inaction or
do not give into not taking action right. That that
leg of the the last quarter of that verse is
(06:51):
really telling because oftentimes we think of action as something
that we do or do not do right. You have
to says do or do not, there's no try. But
there's an alternative here where instead of doing nothing right,
you can take a different action that maybe if you
realize this is wrong, I don't want to support, you know,
(07:15):
whatever this is, so I won't take an action that
supports it. But you could take that further and engage
in an action that helps fight against that or helps
support the people who are lacking from that action. Right.
It's a good pivoting device to understand what work really
means for you in your life.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
So when I was at this particular school, I was
talking about the way they used to phrase what their
interpretation of this text was was that and this seems
to radiate in every effective spiritual tradition that people have attained.
The Enlightenment is to work and have your your attention
(08:00):
on doing the job at hand as magnificently as possible,
but absolutely detached from the results. And they would explain
it in psychophysical terms that actually, this is what makes
performance to the highest degree, because you cannot hit a
baseball that's coming down to strike a line if you're
attached to the outcome. You have to be completely present
(08:23):
and your attention has to be completely in the moment.
Same thing like playing a musical instrument or doing any sport.
You have to practice it to the point where you're
doing it as perfectly and as excellent as you can,
completely free of the results. This is both extremely esoteric
and it's also extremely practical at the same time. I
believe a lot of people will interpret that this is
(08:44):
what Jesus meant when he said, don't let the left
hand know what the right hand is doing. Maybe this
is most potent in masonry today. Maybe a lot of
people in regards to retention are like what Cliff was
saying about entitlement on the negatives right of entitlement, about
not entitled to the fruits. When someone says, you know what,
my Lord should have got me a past master's apron.
(09:07):
Where's my past master's apron? They get disgruntled. Eventually they
leave the craft or other people looking for recognition when
they're doing it when we should be not doing it
for the recognition. We should not be doing it. We
should be doing it for the purity of the work.
And that was serving God and was serving man cut
And when you're in that space, a freedom of attachment,
that's when you actually get the most. Like what Saint
(09:28):
Francis said, to give is to receive.
Speaker 6 (09:32):
And the you know, with that. I remember the story.
I think it was open winfree and she was going
through a tollbooth and she paid for I don't know
how many cars behind it, and I remember, like, wow,
that's that was pretty cool, you know. So I think
one time I paid for one person behind me. But
(09:53):
the thing to resist is the payoff to to my
ego because I feel good about that. And the thing
is to just do the action and resist how good
it makes me feel.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
You know.
Speaker 6 (10:13):
The idea is to do it for the benefit of others,
not so that I could feel good, because then that's
just that's just stroking my own ego. And and that's
the hard part to resist. And it's probably hard for
probably a lot of Westerners to do.
Speaker 7 (10:29):
Yeah, I think, especially in the West, we're really tied
to this reward based program, capitalism, manifest destiny, it's all
very much tied into the fruits of your labor. But
here here Krishna is telling June that you have the
entitlement to do action. You have the entitlement to do things,
(10:55):
but do not forget me. Do not forget the present moment.
Always dwell in the present, and always remember that through
your labor you are an extension through me.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Saint Francis's prayer, Lord, let me be an instrument of yours, right, yeah,
which is literally the chapter. Yeah, it's about it's about
doing that.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
One of the greatest phrases I heard was from a
book called The Dragon Doesn't Live Here Anymore by Alan Cohen,
and he talked about service and investment. So if you
hold a door open for someone to what you were
saying and they don't say thank you, and you get upset,
well that's an indication that you didn't You weren't really
doing service. You were investing. Now, investing is good when
it comes to your finances, but when it comes to
(11:41):
doing service, it should have no place. So she says,
the next time you hold a door open to someone
and they don't say thank you, be grateful, because then
you've done it for God, and God will pay you
back much more than any human And I love that
that helps me.
Speaker 7 (12:20):
I think one of the things we noticed when we
were going through the selections for tonight a lot.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Of Yeah, there's a lot of the verses have the
meaning reflects what we believe in masonry, right, absolutely, we don't.
You know, we don't go out in the world seeking members.
We just do what we think is right. We live
our truth, We live the best to our abilities, and
people are drawn to that and those are the people
(12:46):
who find it right. Oh, if you guarantee anybody who
tries to do masonry to get members, those members won't.
Speaker 7 (12:54):
Stick trying to do again, it's a selfless service, like
when we're invest seeing ourselves without expectations of reward, without
expectations in general. Again, we're present and a lot of
the secret in life is remembering we're already here with God.
(13:14):
We don't need to go anywhere, we don't need to
get anything more than just being here with that, being
completely absorbed with the love of our creator. And that's
for me a lot of the heart of this text.
(13:35):
Let's move on to versus seventy one and seventy two,
which conclude chapter two. Krishna says, they are forever free
who renounce all selfish desires and break away from the
ego cage of I, me and mine to be united
(13:58):
with the Lord. This is the supreme state attained to
this and pass from death to immortality.
Speaker 6 (14:11):
M hm. That that passage, it reminded me of, you know,
the with our ancients called the eating of the eye.
And I've seen the Mevlana dervishes on a number of occasions,
(14:32):
and the last time I saw them, they gave a
little talk before and they wear these elongated fezes, and
he says, we wear these fethers, these long feathers, because
it's a tombstone to our ego. And I really like
that idea, the whole eating of the eye, and and
(14:54):
to try not to to to feed that that particular
animal again. And that's that's the battle within, I think
a lot of the times and for me is trying
not to feed the ego. The eating of the eye.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, it's called the fenna, I think in Sufism, the
burning away of that self. I like, at the risk
of getting a little too syncretic. We are talking about
the Gita, which I think echoes a lot of wisdom
from various religious traditions. You know, Buddhism they call it
nirirana that it's like that extinguishing right in Siviism, it's
(15:38):
that burning of the burning away of the soul. For
in the Git, a lot of the Gate at least,
it's about becoming free from what exists around you and
attaining something that is eternal. It's awakening to something that
you already have.
Speaker 7 (15:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
It's interesting because I think a lot of Western religious
traditions touch on this in various other ways. I wonder
if maybe they don't take it quite far enough, although
I would say most of the saints' writings definitely do
it justice. You know.
Speaker 7 (16:10):
Well, I wonder if that's just a cultural thing, because
I think that it's there, It's really there in the scripture.
I think though it's the practice. It's the scripture and
action versus the scripture for the sake of words. Yeah,
(16:31):
you know, but this brings us to just really holding
renunciation as a thematic element here. What do you guys
feel is renunciation? How is this explained outside of the
(16:51):
key to how is that practice today in our daily lives?
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Would you like to go first?
Speaker 4 (16:59):
I see we have a phrase and don't panic because
it's in English and the ritual book, it could be
said publicly when we divest our heart and consciousness of
all the vices and superfluities of life. And it seems
that one of the common denominators of all the paths
that have effectively led humans to enlightenment and self realization
(17:20):
has been the learning of morality on what really is
what should be renounced? Should it be sex or is
it sex only in marriage? And there's different nuances and
different levelsy these things. And then sort of like how
quantum physics just explodes the physical laws of Newton Nis
Serga Data, who I call my guru, you know, he
(17:41):
basically said that, Look, I sold cigarettes most of my
life and I'm pretty sure I've caused a lot of
harm for people. Yet he attained the highest state of
full self realization. So for me, renunciation and purity and
what this all means and how it all ties together
with freemasony is less about a dogmatic don't do this
(18:02):
and don't do that, but obtaining pure states of consciousness,
like to me, what I think is some of the
definitions of enlightenment versus full self realization or enlightenment versus nirvana,
it depending what tradition we're referring to. Is that in
the first part, enlightenment is that you awakened to your
true identity. Is there is no self, that all there
(18:24):
is is God shining through you. But that's not the end.
That's just the beginning. To learn to dissolve the nervous
system that's constantly distracting you from resting in that self
recognition is the rest of the journey, in which case
I think in India there would say full self realization
is is the end part of that, And in Buddhism
(18:45):
you would say nirvana the extinction of all impulses that
pull you out of that self recognition. And so you
can become enlightened and you could lose it, And it's
about getting it over and over again and doing all
these things over and over again until you lose it.
But again, like the Private Thing said, if you're attached
to it, it ain't gonna happen. So you got to
(19:07):
work for if once you be coome in line, you
gotta work for self realization on navana without wanting it.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
It's the practice. It's the practice, the daily practice of it. Yeah,
I mean, yeah, absolutely, you have to be you have
to that first glimpse, right, It's not meant to be
the reward or the showing the you know, the carrot.
I guess it's meant to show you that this it's
meant to give you that taste that this is real,
(19:35):
this does work. You have to keep at it. It's
that daily practice. And I like, I like that you
brought up the cigarettes as a as a vehicle. I
often think about drinking as a vehicle. Cheers is a
great example, right, Sam Malone is an alcoholic. He buys
a bar. Why because it proves to himself that he
(19:58):
is not ruled by the he has control over it. Right,
And I think this is the thing like the Gita
talks about sonyasa or like as renunciation and also thiaga, right,
so thagas Sonyasa is putting the action down, not doing
these things. So in this context, to be okay, I
(20:19):
have a drinking problem, I should not drink. I should
not put myself in situations where I'm tempted to drink.
And that is fine as a first step. That is
fine if that's what you need, right, But I would
say the ideal state is to not be influenced by
it in the first place, to be able to get
rid of that. And so for sam Malone, that's that statement.
(20:44):
I'm here, I'm not tempted by this. I set it aside,
and I'm able to continue to do my actions, which is,
you know, running a business providing service for local people,
et cetera.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
That fits in perfectly what you said about. So this
would that would be his method of dissolve of.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
The aversion right thought of desire.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
And Rewhids, You're being amazing, especially in Long Island. You're
around a lot of couple.
Speaker 7 (21:37):
Going back to western Western appreciation of scripture, and it's
more of like words as opposed to action. How are
we exemplifying the things that we're philosophizing on the Eastern
Eastern path, it's a lot about internalizing and doing the
work within the heart of the yoga tradition. I think too,
(22:01):
there's a misnomer as to what is yoga what it
pertains to, especially senyasa and taiaga. Are these two both
physical and mental practices of yoga that you could be
doing every day and ought to be doing every day.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Now.
Speaker 7 (22:26):
The mental state of detachment versus relinquish in attachment, I feel,
are just kind of steps. Do you think that you
can really relinquish attachment for everything without first physically separating
yourself from it.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
I think it's possible. I think there's a lot of
circumstances that we don't stop doing and then realize we
don't need to do it, but we can continue. I
think that is generally speaking, one way that we handle
difficulties that we have. We take a break or separate
ourselves from some of those actions when they have a
strong effect on us, to clear our minds to understand right.
(23:09):
But in day to day life, I don't think that's
the case most of the time, you know, I think
that this we're uncating, this giving up right. For me,
I think of the word yagna, meaning the fire right
or the sacrifice. We have a it's in our nature
(23:29):
to be attached to things, and so giving up the
attachment is a form of sacrifice, but you still but
continue to do it is also fulfillment of your derma.
You can do both at the same time. It's that practice,
you know, you have to pick your battles. Days can
(23:51):
be easier, days can be hard. Right, So each action
that we take in our day, you're not going to
be able to pro practice diaga on every single one.
You know, we're not beings of perfection, but in our journeys.
Speaker 7 (24:06):
Not with that attitude, not with that fair enough, but.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
In our journeys we can realize that these are two
tools that we have. Right, if we're feeling weakened or
I feel like we might be susceptible to some of
these temptations that are in life, then you know, Sonyasa,
setting it aside and not doing the action whatsoever is
(24:30):
better than not doing anything you know, or worse going
towards it. Right.
Speaker 7 (24:37):
It reminds me of the fourfold path of in Buddhism,
to understand suffering exists, but then understand it's possible to
remove that suffering, but you have to identify what that
is and actively stop doing it. And of course the
(24:58):
eightfold path gives you the process as to how to
conduct herself, how to mentally move away from it so
that you live by a much more righteous standard.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
But it's parable of two monks and the woman. Right,
two monks are out for the day into venture to
a city. They're leaving to get back to the monastery.
So they come across a river and a woman is
there saying, please, can you help me cross this river.
The one monk says, no, you know, it's against our custom.
(25:34):
You know, we have taken bows of celibacy, so I
can't touch you. The other monk basically says, sure, hop
on my shoulders, I'll carry you across, carries her across,
he sets her down, she goes on her way, and
the first monk wants to say something, but you know,
he holds back. You know, maybe it's a judgment called
that he that he had to make, or maybe it's
(25:55):
a you know, maybe a difference of opinion or something. Anyway,
they're walking back towards the monastery and several times along
this journey he stops and he wants to say something,
but he doesn't. So they get to the gate of
the monastery and the first month says, okay, hold on,
before we go in, I have to ask you why
did you pick up that woman. We're not supposed to
(26:16):
do that. And the other one says, well, woman, and
the first one says the one by the river and
he says, I put her down by the river. Why
are you still carrying her?
Speaker 7 (26:26):
It's brilliant. Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
It's such a simple and very clean way of talking
about renunciating this.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
It's so difficult to use words and scenarios sometimes because
what we're talking about really is transcends words and thoughts
and terms, and so there's so many different things to that.
You could say that, we'll you know, accentuate a point,
and then there's always a counteraction to that if you
(26:53):
hold on to that too much, you know.
Speaker 7 (26:57):
I think this is a great segue to our next quote,
which is from chapter five, verses twenty two through twenty five.
Pleasures conceived in the world of the senses have a
beginning and an end, and give birth to misery Arjuna.
(27:17):
The wise do not look for happiness in them, but
those who overcome the impulses of lust and anger which
arise in the body, are made whole and live in joy.
They find their joy, their rest, and their light completely
within themselves. Unified with the Lord, they attain nirvana in Brahmen,
(27:44):
healed of their sins and conflicts, working for the good
of all beings, the Holy Sages attain nirvana in Bramen.
So this passage resonates with me in a think largely
because it seems to peril well expects again a freemasonry.
(28:07):
And we've spoken about this already a little bit. I
wonder if you guys think it's more pertinent to discuss
that further, or is it more pertinent to talk about
Brahmin the godhead. I think that's another thing that a
lot of the Western audience may find a little bit
(28:28):
hard to embrace. What is Brahmin? Was that different than
brahm Man? What's what's exactly? What's exactly at the heart
of this passage Yatri?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
So Brahman is this state that's I think more clearly
elucidated in the vivid, the corpus and the opponishts of divinity.
When we look at Hinduism from the outside, it often
seems like we're polytheistic, you know, theistic, something like that.
But the secret of the Veda is Soudom, mak Vipra
(29:09):
souther make there's one truth, and the wise call it
by many names. So from this perspective, using different names
and different forms of deity is a tool is an
advantage for us because trying to use abstract ideas is
like we were just saying, difficult and having illustrations by
(29:31):
stories and other things helps us understand better. And so
Bruhman is that that one truth that underlies all things,
and so all other divinities are basically emanations from that
Brahmarna or Brahman Brahmin as we often say. Right, Obviously,
(29:55):
someone of the priestly gasts has a lot of other connotations,
but ultimately it's someone who knows or has seen Brahman.
We would say, someone who has brahmagyana, the knowledge of Brahman.
That's the way idealistically should be. Right. A teacher can
show you what they know, they can't directly show you
(30:18):
something that they don't know, right.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
I think it's an important distinction when brothers are considering
someone from the lodge. There's a misunderstanding that a lot
of people think that Hinduism is polytheistic. It's not. I
always tell them. It's polyomorphic, where they're all manifestations of
the same divine being. They believe in a supreme being.
They believe we're all one, Which seems to be the
precursor to this verse is saying that Look, when you're
(30:47):
seeking pleasure, right, it's because you're identifying as a fake
individual something that doesn't exist. But when you are identified
with God and you're thinking of God, well then you
transcend it all. And that's the whole underlining point that
if we're acting under the false identification as an individual
and we don't affect anything else and we're not connected
(31:08):
to anyone else, that's where the problem's thoughting. Like soccer
with you said, any action dedicated to pleasure always leads
back to pain and vice versa. And that's why is
because we're all one in God, and so it has
to always come back to that one central point of
worshiping God, which is only being that exists in the universe.
(31:29):
Everyone else is a manifestation.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
I hope you enjoyed this presentation of the Craftsman Online
reading Room. If you want to watch the full discussion
and share it in your launch, highly recommend you do that,
head on over to our YouTube channel at Craftsman Online
or click the link in the show notes for this
episode and enjoy I'm right worship for Brother Michael Arsai.
You can support this Craftsman Online podcast and the wonderful
(31:54):
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Until next time, let peace and harmony prevailed
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(00:23):
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Speaker 2 (00:27):
The commons, opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Launch, Concordant Body, a Pendant Body,
a Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot Com.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only Masonic
endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York. I'm your
host Righte Worsche for Brother Michael Arsa, and you've joined
us for a special presentation of the Craftsman Online reading Room.
The doors for our reading Room opened at the end
of July with a new discussion hosted by right Worshe
for Brother Jason Short. He's going to be catching up
with Right worship for Brothers Michael Lorocco, Cliff Jacobs, and
(01:20):
Yatri Trevetti on the Boga of Agita. This has been
a particular topic, subject area, whatever you want to call it.
That since I have been a freemason, I have wanted
to learn more about this. I too have visited lodges
and my home lodge here in the nation's capital, Saint
John's Lodge number eleven, we display a boga of a
(01:40):
Gita on our altar. I've always wondered, what is the
story behind that? What is the amazing light that is
inside this tradition? And those questions and so many more
get answered. Now you are only getting a thirty minute
window of this reading room discussion. The full version is
available on the Craftsman Online YouTube channel, which is at
(02:04):
craftsmen Online. If you need help navigating there, just open
up the notes for this episode. I've got the link
to see it all. Without further ado, I'm gonna let
our guests introduce themselves.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
I'm brother Yatri Triveli. I'm a past master of Joshua
Lodge number eight hundred and ninety out of New York.
I have the distinct honor of being named as the
first Hindu Grand Chaplain for New York as well, and
I'm also a member of an Asserti Lodge in New
Jersey in Spioradus number three five seven. I've been amazing
(02:38):
about seven years, but a lot of it feels familiar.
Plotting on ahead because it just grabs me so much.
I'm also a pundit, so I perform religious services for
brothers and sisters of the Hindu faith. I get to
be a preceptor for whatever the ritual needs might be.
(03:01):
And I'm excited to talk about the Guita today. It
is just a phenomenal text. Remember the first time when
I heard the words of the Gita, I was young boy.
I was watching my grandmother. She had put on bier
Chopra's rendition of the Mahabharat on TV. I was watching
(03:21):
alongside with her, and the words with their gravitas in
scene really captured me. And from there I started studying
the text with her.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Greeting is everyone. My name is Michael Laracco. I am
by profession, the executive director of the Chancellor Robadol Livingston
Masonic Library of Grand Lodge and in Masony I am
currently the staff officer for Nassau District, meaning that I
am a grand Steward of the Grand Lodge and I
teach the education there. I'm really excited about this event
because the Bagavad Gita was part of a very powerful
(03:55):
spiritual journey for me. Meant a lot to me, helped
me on my my spiritual path. And to come here
and now find it in a place that we could
discuss with brother Masons and how it affected masonry and
how masonry is affected by it, I'm really excited.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (04:12):
Hello.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
My name is Clifford Jacobs, illustrious thirty third degree member
of the Scottish Rite Valley of New York City. Been
a Mason now for thirty seven years, and I have
a particular interest in as a terrorik freemasonry. But I'm
looking forward to tonight's discussion about the Bagavat Gita.
Speaker 7 (04:36):
You know, it was really difficult to beare down. There's
a lot what we were going to talk about this evening.
With your help, we were able to come up with
a few selections to discuss this evening from chapter two,
which was I think we got the most submissions from
(04:58):
chapter two Acts, one of the most quoted passages in
the Gida is considered verses fifty five through seventy two,
and Gandhi said that just understanding that passage alone would
help to encapsulate all of the teachings into your life.
(05:22):
You have the right to work, but never to the
fruit of work. You should never engage in action for
the sake of reward, nor should you long for inaction.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
So I love this verse, one of those verses that
I read and woke something in me. He says it very,
very plainly.
Speaker 6 (05:43):
I like that.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
You know, Isranji actually translates the word is work guttermany
means actions. Usually you see that translates actions, but he
uses it in the working, operative sense of work, and
I think that is correct in the situation he says,
you have a right to a degata. Is the word
a degada a degata. I think in a modern lens
(06:08):
the word entitle is a little bit more apt. You
are entitled to do the work that is in your life,
but you are not entitled to the results of that work.
And that, it's most basic tells you if it's worth doing,
it's worth doing, whether things good or bad happen. And
(06:29):
if it's not worth doing, then it's worth doing something
else right. And that it's that that last section, you know,
do not let do not be swayed by inaction or
do not give into not taking action right. That that
leg of the the last quarter of that verse is
(06:51):
really telling because oftentimes we think of action as something
that we do or do not do right. You have
to says do or do not, there's no try. But
there's an alternative here where instead of doing nothing right,
you can take a different action that maybe if you
realize this is wrong, I don't want to support, you know,
(07:15):
whatever this is, so I won't take an action that
supports it. But you could take that further and engage
in an action that helps fight against that or helps
support the people who are lacking from that action. Right.
It's a good pivoting device to understand what work really
means for you in your life.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
So when I was at this particular school, I was
talking about the way they used to phrase what their
interpretation of this text was was that and this seems
to radiate in every effective spiritual tradition that people have attained.
The Enlightenment is to work and have your your attention
(08:00):
on doing the job at hand as magnificently as possible,
but absolutely detached from the results. And they would explain
it in psychophysical terms that actually, this is what makes
performance to the highest degree, because you cannot hit a
baseball that's coming down to strike a line if you're
attached to the outcome. You have to be completely present
(08:23):
and your attention has to be completely in the moment.
Same thing like playing a musical instrument or doing any sport.
You have to practice it to the point where you're
doing it as perfectly and as excellent as you can,
completely free of the results. This is both extremely esoteric
and it's also extremely practical at the same time. I
believe a lot of people will interpret that this is
(08:44):
what Jesus meant when he said, don't let the left
hand know what the right hand is doing. Maybe this
is most potent in masonry today. Maybe a lot of
people in regards to retention are like what Cliff was
saying about entitlement on the negatives right of entitlement, about
not entitled to the fruits. When someone says, you know what,
my Lord should have got me a past master's apron.
(09:07):
Where's my past master's apron? They get disgruntled. Eventually they
leave the craft or other people looking for recognition when
they're doing it when we should be not doing it
for the recognition. We should not be doing it. We
should be doing it for the purity of the work.
And that was serving God and was serving man cut
And when you're in that space, a freedom of attachment,
that's when you actually get the most. Like what Saint
(09:28):
Francis said, to give is to receive.
Speaker 6 (09:32):
And the you know, with that. I remember the story.
I think it was open winfree and she was going
through a tollbooth and she paid for I don't know
how many cars behind it, and I remember, like, wow,
that's that was pretty cool, you know. So I think
one time I paid for one person behind me. But
(09:53):
the thing to resist is the payoff to to my
ego because I feel good about that. And the thing
is to just do the action and resist how good
it makes me feel.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
You know.
Speaker 6 (10:13):
The idea is to do it for the benefit of others,
not so that I could feel good, because then that's
just that's just stroking my own ego. And and that's
the hard part to resist. And it's probably hard for
probably a lot of Westerners to do.
Speaker 7 (10:29):
Yeah, I think, especially in the West, we're really tied
to this reward based program, capitalism, manifest destiny, it's all
very much tied into the fruits of your labor. But
here here Krishna is telling June that you have the
entitlement to do action. You have the entitlement to do things,
(10:55):
but do not forget me. Do not forget the present moment.
Always dwell in the present, and always remember that through
your labor you are an extension through me.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Saint Francis's prayer, Lord, let me be an instrument of yours, right, yeah,
which is literally the chapter. Yeah, it's about it's about
doing that.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
One of the greatest phrases I heard was from a
book called The Dragon Doesn't Live Here Anymore by Alan Cohen,
and he talked about service and investment. So if you
hold a door open for someone to what you were
saying and they don't say thank you, and you get upset,
well that's an indication that you didn't You weren't really
doing service. You were investing. Now, investing is good when
it comes to your finances, but when it comes to
(11:41):
doing service, it should have no place. So she says,
the next time you hold a door open to someone
and they don't say thank you, be grateful, because then
you've done it for God, and God will pay you
back much more than any human And I love that
that helps me.
Speaker 7 (12:20):
I think one of the things we noticed when we
were going through the selections for tonight a lot.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Of Yeah, there's a lot of the verses have the
meaning reflects what we believe in masonry, right, absolutely, we don't.
You know, we don't go out in the world seeking members.
We just do what we think is right. We live
our truth, We live the best to our abilities, and
people are drawn to that and those are the people
(12:46):
who find it right. Oh, if you guarantee anybody who
tries to do masonry to get members, those members won't.
Speaker 7 (12:54):
Stick trying to do again, it's a selfless service, like
when we're invest seeing ourselves without expectations of reward, without
expectations in general. Again, we're present and a lot of
the secret in life is remembering we're already here with God.
(13:14):
We don't need to go anywhere, we don't need to
get anything more than just being here with that, being
completely absorbed with the love of our creator. And that's
for me a lot of the heart of this text.
(13:35):
Let's move on to versus seventy one and seventy two,
which conclude chapter two. Krishna says, they are forever free
who renounce all selfish desires and break away from the
ego cage of I, me and mine to be united
(13:58):
with the Lord. This is the supreme state attained to
this and pass from death to immortality.
Speaker 6 (14:11):
M hm. That that passage, it reminded me of, you know,
the with our ancients called the eating of the eye.
And I've seen the Mevlana dervishes on a number of occasions,
(14:32):
and the last time I saw them, they gave a
little talk before and they wear these elongated fezes, and
he says, we wear these fethers, these long feathers, because
it's a tombstone to our ego. And I really like
that idea, the whole eating of the eye, and and
(14:54):
to try not to to to feed that that particular
animal again. And that's that's the battle within, I think
a lot of the times and for me is trying
not to feed the ego. The eating of the eye.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, it's called the fenna, I think in Sufism, the
burning away of that self. I like, at the risk
of getting a little too syncretic. We are talking about
the Gita, which I think echoes a lot of wisdom
from various religious traditions. You know, Buddhism they call it
nirirana that it's like that extinguishing right in Siviism, it's
(15:38):
that burning of the burning away of the soul. For
in the Git, a lot of the Gate at least,
it's about becoming free from what exists around you and
attaining something that is eternal. It's awakening to something that
you already have.
Speaker 7 (15:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
It's interesting because I think a lot of Western religious
traditions touch on this in various other ways. I wonder
if maybe they don't take it quite far enough, although
I would say most of the saints' writings definitely do
it justice. You know.
Speaker 7 (16:10):
Well, I wonder if that's just a cultural thing, because
I think that it's there, It's really there in the scripture.
I think though it's the practice. It's the scripture and
action versus the scripture for the sake of words. Yeah,
(16:31):
you know, but this brings us to just really holding
renunciation as a thematic element here. What do you guys
feel is renunciation? How is this explained outside of the
(16:51):
key to how is that practice today in our daily lives?
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Would you like to go first?
Speaker 4 (16:59):
I see we have a phrase and don't panic because
it's in English and the ritual book, it could be
said publicly when we divest our heart and consciousness of
all the vices and superfluities of life. And it seems
that one of the common denominators of all the paths
that have effectively led humans to enlightenment and self realization
(17:20):
has been the learning of morality on what really is
what should be renounced? Should it be sex or is
it sex only in marriage? And there's different nuances and
different levelsy these things. And then sort of like how
quantum physics just explodes the physical laws of Newton Nis
Serga Data, who I call my guru, you know, he
(17:41):
basically said that, Look, I sold cigarettes most of my
life and I'm pretty sure I've caused a lot of
harm for people. Yet he attained the highest state of
full self realization. So for me, renunciation and purity and
what this all means and how it all ties together
with freemasony is less about a dogmatic don't do this
(18:02):
and don't do that, but obtaining pure states of consciousness,
like to me, what I think is some of the
definitions of enlightenment versus full self realization or enlightenment versus nirvana,
it depending what tradition we're referring to. Is that in
the first part, enlightenment is that you awakened to your
true identity. Is there is no self, that all there
(18:24):
is is God shining through you. But that's not the end.
That's just the beginning. To learn to dissolve the nervous
system that's constantly distracting you from resting in that self
recognition is the rest of the journey, in which case
I think in India there would say full self realization
is is the end part of that, And in Buddhism
(18:45):
you would say nirvana the extinction of all impulses that
pull you out of that self recognition. And so you
can become enlightened and you could lose it, And it's
about getting it over and over again and doing all
these things over and over again until you lose it.
But again, like the Private Thing said, if you're attached
to it, it ain't gonna happen. So you got to
(19:07):
work for if once you be coome in line, you
gotta work for self realization on navana without wanting it.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
It's the practice. It's the practice, the daily practice of it. Yeah,
I mean, yeah, absolutely, you have to be you have
to that first glimpse, right, It's not meant to be
the reward or the showing the you know, the carrot.
I guess it's meant to show you that this it's
meant to give you that taste that this is real,
(19:35):
this does work. You have to keep at it. It's
that daily practice. And I like, I like that you
brought up the cigarettes as a as a vehicle. I
often think about drinking as a vehicle. Cheers is a
great example, right, Sam Malone is an alcoholic. He buys
a bar. Why because it proves to himself that he
(19:58):
is not ruled by the he has control over it. Right,
And I think this is the thing like the Gita
talks about sonyasa or like as renunciation and also thiaga, right,
so thagas Sonyasa is putting the action down, not doing
these things. So in this context, to be okay, I
(20:19):
have a drinking problem, I should not drink. I should
not put myself in situations where I'm tempted to drink.
And that is fine as a first step. That is
fine if that's what you need, right, But I would
say the ideal state is to not be influenced by
it in the first place, to be able to get
rid of that. And so for sam Malone, that's that statement.
(20:44):
I'm here, I'm not tempted by this. I set it aside,
and I'm able to continue to do my actions, which is,
you know, running a business providing service for local people,
et cetera.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
That fits in perfectly what you said about. So this
would that would be his method of dissolve of.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
The aversion right thought of desire.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
And Rewhids, You're being amazing, especially in Long Island. You're
around a lot of couple.
Speaker 7 (21:37):
Going back to western Western appreciation of scripture, and it's
more of like words as opposed to action. How are
we exemplifying the things that we're philosophizing on the Eastern
Eastern path, it's a lot about internalizing and doing the
work within the heart of the yoga tradition. I think too,
(22:01):
there's a misnomer as to what is yoga what it
pertains to, especially senyasa and taiaga. Are these two both
physical and mental practices of yoga that you could be
doing every day and ought to be doing every day.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Now.
Speaker 7 (22:26):
The mental state of detachment versus relinquish in attachment, I feel,
are just kind of steps. Do you think that you
can really relinquish attachment for everything without first physically separating
yourself from it.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
I think it's possible. I think there's a lot of
circumstances that we don't stop doing and then realize we
don't need to do it, but we can continue. I
think that is generally speaking, one way that we handle
difficulties that we have. We take a break or separate
ourselves from some of those actions when they have a
strong effect on us, to clear our minds to understand right.
(23:09):
But in day to day life, I don't think that's
the case most of the time, you know, I think
that this we're uncating, this giving up right. For me,
I think of the word yagna, meaning the fire right
or the sacrifice. We have a it's in our nature
(23:29):
to be attached to things, and so giving up the
attachment is a form of sacrifice, but you still but
continue to do it is also fulfillment of your derma.
You can do both at the same time. It's that practice,
you know, you have to pick your battles. Days can
(23:51):
be easier, days can be hard. Right, So each action
that we take in our day, you're not going to
be able to pro practice diaga on every single one.
You know, we're not beings of perfection, but in our journeys.
Speaker 7 (24:06):
Not with that attitude, not with that fair enough, but.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
In our journeys we can realize that these are two
tools that we have. Right, if we're feeling weakened or
I feel like we might be susceptible to some of
these temptations that are in life, then you know, Sonyasa,
setting it aside and not doing the action whatsoever is
(24:30):
better than not doing anything you know, or worse going
towards it. Right.
Speaker 7 (24:37):
It reminds me of the fourfold path of in Buddhism,
to understand suffering exists, but then understand it's possible to
remove that suffering, but you have to identify what that
is and actively stop doing it. And of course the
(24:58):
eightfold path gives you the process as to how to
conduct herself, how to mentally move away from it so
that you live by a much more righteous standard.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
But it's parable of two monks and the woman. Right,
two monks are out for the day into venture to
a city. They're leaving to get back to the monastery.
So they come across a river and a woman is
there saying, please, can you help me cross this river.
The one monk says, no, you know, it's against our custom.
(25:34):
You know, we have taken bows of celibacy, so I
can't touch you. The other monk basically says, sure, hop
on my shoulders, I'll carry you across, carries her across,
he sets her down, she goes on her way, and
the first monk wants to say something, but you know,
he holds back. You know, maybe it's a judgment called
that he that he had to make, or maybe it's
(25:55):
a you know, maybe a difference of opinion or something. Anyway,
they're walking back towards the monastery and several times along
this journey he stops and he wants to say something,
but he doesn't. So they get to the gate of
the monastery and the first month says, okay, hold on,
before we go in, I have to ask you why
did you pick up that woman. We're not supposed to
(26:16):
do that. And the other one says, well, woman, and
the first one says the one by the river and
he says, I put her down by the river. Why
are you still carrying her?
Speaker 7 (26:26):
It's brilliant. Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
It's such a simple and very clean way of talking
about renunciating this.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
It's so difficult to use words and scenarios sometimes because
what we're talking about really is transcends words and thoughts
and terms, and so there's so many different things to that.
You could say that, we'll you know, accentuate a point,
and then there's always a counteraction to that if you
(26:53):
hold on to that too much, you know.
Speaker 7 (26:57):
I think this is a great segue to our next quote,
which is from chapter five, verses twenty two through twenty five.
Pleasures conceived in the world of the senses have a
beginning and an end, and give birth to misery Arjuna.
(27:17):
The wise do not look for happiness in them, but
those who overcome the impulses of lust and anger which
arise in the body, are made whole and live in joy.
They find their joy, their rest, and their light completely
within themselves. Unified with the Lord, they attain nirvana in Brahmen,
(27:44):
healed of their sins and conflicts, working for the good
of all beings, the Holy Sages attain nirvana in Bramen.
So this passage resonates with me in a think largely
because it seems to peril well expects again a freemasonry.
(28:07):
And we've spoken about this already a little bit. I
wonder if you guys think it's more pertinent to discuss
that further, or is it more pertinent to talk about
Brahmin the godhead. I think that's another thing that a
lot of the Western audience may find a little bit
(28:28):
hard to embrace. What is Brahmin? Was that different than
brahm Man? What's what's exactly? What's exactly at the heart
of this passage Yatri?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
So Brahman is this state that's I think more clearly
elucidated in the vivid, the corpus and the opponishts of divinity.
When we look at Hinduism from the outside, it often
seems like we're polytheistic, you know, theistic, something like that.
But the secret of the Veda is Soudom, mak Vipra
(29:09):
souther make there's one truth, and the wise call it
by many names. So from this perspective, using different names
and different forms of deity is a tool is an
advantage for us because trying to use abstract ideas is
like we were just saying, difficult and having illustrations by
(29:31):
stories and other things helps us understand better. And so
Bruhman is that that one truth that underlies all things,
and so all other divinities are basically emanations from that
Brahmarna or Brahman Brahmin as we often say. Right, Obviously,
(29:55):
someone of the priestly gasts has a lot of other connotations,
but ultimately it's someone who knows or has seen Brahman.
We would say, someone who has brahmagyana, the knowledge of Brahman.
That's the way idealistically should be. Right. A teacher can
show you what they know, they can't directly show you
(30:18):
something that they don't know, right.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
I think it's an important distinction when brothers are considering
someone from the lodge. There's a misunderstanding that a lot
of people think that Hinduism is polytheistic. It's not. I
always tell them. It's polyomorphic, where they're all manifestations of
the same divine being. They believe in a supreme being.
They believe we're all one, Which seems to be the
precursor to this verse is saying that Look, when you're
(30:47):
seeking pleasure, right, it's because you're identifying as a fake
individual something that doesn't exist. But when you are identified
with God and you're thinking of God, well then you
transcend it all. And that's the whole underlining point that
if we're acting under the false identification as an individual
and we don't affect anything else and we're not connected
(31:08):
to anyone else, that's where the problem's thoughting. Like soccer
with you said, any action dedicated to pleasure always leads
back to pain and vice versa. And that's why is
because we're all one in God, and so it has
to always come back to that one central point of
worshiping God, which is only being that exists in the universe.
(31:29):
Everyone else is a manifestation.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
I hope you enjoyed this presentation of the Craftsman Online
reading Room. If you want to watch the full discussion
and share it in your launch, highly recommend you do that,
head on over to our YouTube channel at Craftsman Online
or click the link in the show notes for this
episode and enjoy I'm right worship for Brother Michael Arsai.
You can support this Craftsman Online podcast and the wonderful
(31:54):
programs that we put together. By supporting us on Patreon,
it's just five dollars a month. We thank you in advance.
Until next time, let peace and harmony prevailed
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