December 1, 2025 • 31 mins
Join us for a fascinating exploration of human motivation and the Masonic path with WB Bull Garlington, author of the insightful paper ‘Maybe Maslow's Pyramid Could Work...' We'll discuss how Abraham Maslow's theory of human development aligns with the stages of growth within Freemasonry. Discover how the pursuit of belonging, esteem, and self-actualization resonates with the journey from Entered Apprentice to Master Mason.
Show notes:
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/craftsmen-online-podcast--4822031/support.
Show notes:
- Join us on Patreon. Start your FREE seven day trial to the Craftsmen Online Podcast and get instant access to our bonus content! Whether it's a one time donation or you become a Patreon Subscriber, we appreciate your support.
- Visit the Craftsmen Online website to learn more about our next Reading Room event, New York Masonic History, and our Masonic Education blog!
- Follow the Craftsmen Online Podcast on Spotify.
- Subscribe to the Craftsmen Online Podcast on Apple Podcasts.
- Follow Craftsmen Online on YouTube, hit subscribe and get notified the next time we go LIVE with a podcast recording!
- Yes, we're on Instagram.
- Get our latest announcements and important updates in your inbox with the Craftsmen Online Newsletter.
- Email the host, RW Michael Arce! Yes, we will read your email and may even reach out to be a guest on a future episode.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/craftsmen-online-podcast--4822031/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Launch, Concordant Body, a Pendant Body,
a Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey, welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only
Masonic podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York.
I'm your host, right worship of Brother Michael Arsa. It
is good to have you back on this Monday morning.
We are still looking to close out this year strong
on Patreon. A reminder we're trying to get twenty new
subscribers before the end of the year. Craftsman Online is
(00:50):
on Patreon. Here's what you get. AD free episodes and
access to the full back catalog of all of our
subscriber extra episodes.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
That's whall.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
We get some extra time some of our favorite guests,
like this week's guest, Worshipful Brother Bull Garlington, will be
expanding on his discussion of maybe Maslow's pyramid couldwork dot
dot dot. You support the show five dollars a month.
We thank you so much for an advance for that
and our thank you to you. AD free episodes and
more content. It's a win win. So, as we mentioned
(01:21):
this week, we have a returning champion as we get
ready to talk about Maslow's hierarchy and the Masonic Journey.
He's one of my favorite brothers to talk about. I'm
so proud of him as he is an Oxford Man
now and making time to join us on the Craftsman
Online podcast. Worshipful brother Bull Garlington, Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Back, Thank you, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So the last time we had you on the podcast,
we talked about our friend Joseph Campbell. We got into
the hero's journey. You teased a little bit about Maslow
and the pyramid and the his theory of the hierarchy
of needs. We're going to get into that, and you're like,
I gotta share this paper with you. Then I read
it and I was like, Oh, this.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Guy, this is why it's going to Oxford. Come on.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
So I want to dive into this, but I want
to help our listener out who may be unfamiliar with
the pyramid with the theory, give us a quick overview.
But you got to do it in the bowl Garlington perspective.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I mean, that's the only one I have. So when
I began to look at this because I learned about
it because another mason mentioned it to me and he was,
you know, mansplaining something and he mentioned Maslow's pyramid. I'm like,
I never heard of that, and he, you know, sent
me a link and everything, blah blah. I read about it.
I'm like, that sounds familiar, and so I looked into it.
(02:29):
First of all, it's not really a pyramid, and Maslow
never Maslow was a was an early twentieth century of
social social science social scientist, and he developed a theory
called Maslow's theory of needs or Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
(02:52):
And what it is is when he says needs, he's
talking about the most basic needs that humans have in
order to divel It's the basic path of human development
expressed through what we need in each stage. And he
did a lot of work on this, and he boiled
it down to three basic stages, and you can and
(03:15):
those are broken apart a little more, and that's how
people get the pyramid part. But it basically is Stage
one is making sure you have a roof over your
head and you've got food. The second section is about
socialization and connecting with people and belonging, which is important,
and then the final section is self actualization, and I
thought that sounds just like three degrees.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
For our YouTube live streamer. You've got the triangle there
as part of Bull's research paper. But for the listener,
you'll see where there's a quick parallel. Why he mentioned
it during the Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey because there's that
one part in the arc of the hero's journey where
there's that self actualization moment, that awakening AHA moment in life.
(04:00):
And Maslow kind of lists this at the top of
his hierarchy. Is why is that? And then everything else
comes from that? Or is it from the ground to
the top.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
It's the final It's the final part of human development.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Gotcha?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Okay, it's basically it's basically our goal is.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
To find is to have that AHA moment in life
to answer the question of why am I here? What
am I supposed to be doing? What's my purpose?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Right?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
And now for our listener that may have gone through
the secrets that you and I share, now I can
start to see that moment lining up with you and
why a brother would say, oh, this is just like
Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and you're like, what are you
talking about? So how do you explain that in your
way connecting to our Masonic experience.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Really, part of the needs that Maslow talks about are
usually already taken care of when someone decides to join
our viternity, because most guys join between twenty five and
thirty five, and they usually already have a career, they've
got a job, they've got a family. They kind of
have their basic needs met. They're not struggling in the
(05:05):
sense that they have a roof over their head, they're safe,
and so they've had the first part of Maslow's hierarchy
of needs satisfied. Although there is a lot of criticism
about the simplification or how simple Maslow's needs are stated,
I feel that there's a purpose in that because it
(05:27):
allows people to interpret them in broader circumstances, and I
think that's a very good People talk about how the
first section with the roof over your head, that there's
much more to it than just having food and shelter,
to which I reply, of course, every generation develops new needs.
And Maslow didn't talk about psychological safety, and he didn't
(05:51):
talk about, you know, social safety because those things really
hadn't weren't part of his regular day, so to speak.
But the next section, the next phase of the hierarchy
of needs is to me, one of the most important,
and that is that that once those needs are met,
(06:13):
a human being needs to belong to a group that
accepts them. And to me, that's automatically the first and
first and second degree right there. And then so they
have to spend a long time being part of a
group whose tenets and principles and precepts they respect and
(06:34):
admire and and it reflects who they are. At the
same time they need to be part of that need
is they need to be simultaneously accepted and respected by
the people in that group. So you have to recognize them,
and then you have to be recognized by them, and
then you have to maintain your membership in that group
(06:54):
by exemplifying the ideals that that group represents. And so
that's a huge part of the second phase, and it's
a big and long part of our life. We tend
to belong to more than one group, and we you know,
we come out of a group and go into another group. Finally,
after that is the final part of Maslow's hierarchy needs,
(07:18):
and that is self actualization. And to me, that's absolutely
what the third degree is all about, and that is
about answering the age old and enduring and constant question
the foundation of philosophy, and that is why am I here?
What is my purpose? And when you do fulfill all
the hierachyve needs prior to that, you are on the
(07:40):
path to answer that question. Typically, from what I've read
in Maslow and in some of the other social scientists
and psychologists is that self actualization tends to happen later
in life. Not many people get it early. There's a
lot that has to happen in your life to sort
of opened up that channel.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, you got to have experiences.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yeah, absolutely, And that that whole thing about in Maso's
higher needs, about belonging to a group and exemplifying the
principles of those groups. That's not an immediate thing, and
and so that takes a long time. But once you
have achieved that that second phase, it's still a long
(08:25):
road to actual self actualization. Even though people painted is
a little tip of the pyramid. First of all, Maso
hated the idea of the pyramid. He'd never called it
the pyramid. Ever, to him it was it was more
like smoke. Even though it's represented as very small, it's
an enormous and long period of effort and uh. And
(08:48):
to me, I think it represents the richest part of
a person's life. And since we're talking about what we're
talking about, I'm just going to say, at the richest
part of a man's life, I think happens in section
where he is trying to determine why he is here.
I think that that is one of the most important
and during questions we.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Have So knowing you you didn't get this explanation while
you were going through the degrees, I'd liked for you
to tell us, like, how did this has just come out?
Because no one's going to say at the bar one
night over a drink, Oh, you should have investigate Maslow.
He talked all about the needs and that's what's going on,
that's not happening. So if you could just the readers
(09:27):
digest like what led into this conversation. And then most importantly,
I'm interested in knowing once you hear this and it
comes into your brain and you're like, well, let me
steal on this for a while when you were chewing
on it. What was your thought process of trying to go, yeah,
he's onto something here. Now I'm seeing it, now I'm
living it.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
When I wrote this paper a while back, I was
still operating. I was still in an early part of
my self actualization, and so in a lot of ways,
Mike talks and my presentations were really about me. And
what I really enjoyed doing was finding templates and overlays
(10:05):
from culture that fit directly over Freemasonry in order to
constantly point out its universality, you know, like with the
Hero's Journey Boy hatted Is. It failed nicely on that
and then on Maso's hieracypedies, Gee whiz. It kind of
dubtails mass that we change every seven years, a kid
at seven, a kid at fourteen, a kid at twenty one,
(10:28):
each part each we tend to have, you know, in general,
seven year phases. And I mean it's not to the
day or anything. But Maslow and Ingel and some of
these other guys were philosophers. They weren't lab scientists, and
they weren't really social scientists or psychologists. They were more
like philosophers. That doesn't mean that what they talked about
(10:49):
was incorrect, but it does mean that in most cases,
I don't think they did a lot of hard science
field testing of their ideas. I think that they thought
to themselves, that they gave it critical think, and that
they moled over with the tools of logic and rhetoric
and et cetera, and thought themselves this holds water.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Worship of Brother Pulck Garlington is our guest on the
Craftsman Online podcast. He's graciously offered up his paper on
Maslow's hierarchy and the Masonic Journey. If you're interested in
getting that, just open the show notes for this episode. Bang,
you're going to find the link right there that connects
back to it for those that have read the paper
or those that are just interested. One of the concepts
(11:52):
that you introduce is peak experiences. And as you were
talking about your Oxford going back to school working on
that degree at sixty, does that qualify as a peak experience?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I think a peak First of all. I hope no
one believes that I came up with the idea of
a peak experience. I definitely did not, and it wasn't Maso.
It was somebody else that British guy came up with
that and to clarify what a peak experience is is
it's a moment in your life where it transcends all
your entire life up into that moment. A lot of
(12:26):
people equate it with the birth of a child, but
I think that I think it's greater than that. To me,
it's more similar to a religious experience, and it doesn't
have to be religion at all. Mountain climbers talk about
it a lot. I mean, they're on a peak, so
whatever it's, it's when it's when something happens and for
a brief moment, you're sort of outside time and you're
(12:50):
sort of having an experience that is untranslatable, and when
you're finished with it, you want to share with everybody
and you are definitely a different person after that.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Absolutely, that would easily apply to the initiation process, that
the being raised process, the first and the third degrees
in freemasonry.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Well, I think there's a very specific moment it applies to.
But I'm not sure if we can talk about it here.
I mean, can you depause for mantor let me tell
you what it is and you can edit that part
out if if it's not appropriate. Right, So, so, if
I have to explain this. I'm going to be talking
about that moment and the first degree where they where
(13:31):
they remove the blindfold. All right, And so I don't
know if I can. I don't know who listens to
your podcast, and I don't.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Know that is that is out there, that is in
all the ritual that's online.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
So right, that's you could you could buy that book, yeah,
get in the library. So to me, that is one
of the most transcendent moments of a free issue when
and here I go again, when it's properly managed and curated. Yes,
and this is the most important part. Candidate should take
a long time to get there, a long time. And
(14:05):
my lodge, it's eighteen months. And in that time, that
guy has many opportunities to walk away, and sometimes that happens,
but if they don't, they become such an integral part
of everyone's life. They've been in our homes and we've
given them a ride, We've bought them drinks. So if
we've hung out till two in the morning talking about
all kinds of stuff, life and everything, and you know,
(14:27):
we've recommended books, they've recommended books. I know what they
like in music, they know what I like. We are friends.
Now we're in each other's lives, not just me, but
every guy in the launch. All right, we love this
person now and they love us. We've all fallen in
love together. When that moment happens and they say, let
there be light. When that person looks up, they know
(14:50):
every single person that they're looking at in that room,
and every one of those people represents this society, and
every one of them is beaming in them and saying welcome,
and that is send and experience in our lodge. It
is typically the time where someone is brought to tears,
and not just a guy kneeling. It is a heartfelt moment.
(15:13):
To me, that is definitely a peak moment.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
As you're describing that. For me, I was still wondering
what the hell was going on in the first degree
because it was completely different than what I thought. And
I had watched all the YouTube videos so I knew everything.
But the one that really got to me was physically
being raised in the third degree and seeing those people
(15:37):
that I've respected in the room, those men looking at
me and me looking at them, and just realizing we
just made a lifelong bond, like this just happened, and
I would never have met this person, I would probably
never have interacted with them if it wasn't for this
shared experience, like right here, right now, and I'll never
forget them for the rest of my life. There's no
way to wipe that. And it shapes you. I do
(15:58):
want to talk about the things that you have written,
because your paper is full of the good bowl, as
I like to say. And when you talk about living
our virtues, and that's kind of the theme here. You
write freemasonry is not relegated to the period when one
is satisfying the minimum requirements to progress to the next degree,
but observed and engaged for the rest of one's light.
(16:22):
What was the experience that shaped that quote and brought
it out.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
I was an asshole one day. I was. I was
just one day.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
There was a particular day while I was being an asshole.
I was we were redoing our kitchen and I was
at the tile place. It had these special tiles that
we'd picked out that we're ready, and I was going
to go load them up or bring them to the
guys or at my house. On the clock. Tigo is
impossible to part and so there's the loading dock and
I'm waiting for the people in the loading dock to leave.
(16:58):
And finally they leave and I get ready to get
in the dock and somebody just swoops in and parks here.
And I've been there for forty five minutes, and I'm like, oh,
oh no. And so I found some actual parking and
I parked there, and I just I stalked into that
store and I said, who's got the red Hyundi? And
I goes, that's me. I'm like, what kind of an
(17:19):
asshole are you? I was there, I've been waiting for
forty five minutes. And then he goes, he goes, hey,
he goes, I'm so sorry. I didn't know you'd been waiting.
I thought you were just parked on the street. You
want me to go move my car? And then I
was like, uh cramp. And as I'm stalking away, I'm like,
oh man, what a turd, you know? And it suddenly
(17:43):
just it just showed up in my head and it
was like not very prudent of you, not really temperate either,
you know. And then and then it was like is
that just? And I was like God. And so I
went back in and I found them. I go, hey,
I'm so sorry. About that. I'd have no right to
(18:07):
talk to you that way, and that was not who
I normally am. And I want to apologize for being
a jerk. And the guy goes, hey, man, I understand,
don't worry about it. He goes, We're almost done. And
then when he came out, he held the space for me,
you know. And so so that's how that was the
first time I realized that the virtues don't matter until
(18:29):
you use them, and you don't own them until you
use them. And that is that is a an important
thing to learn, and it's something we should talk about
all the time. You should have. You should have when
guys are in the first degree their mentors, besides teaching
the Catechism, they should be sitting around going, tell me
(18:49):
about how you use temperance this week, tell me about
something where you had to employ engage with fortitude. They
should be talking about that. You know, the guy I
told you about, Scott, he oh, I.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Thought you meant the asshole at the Red Hunter.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Sorry, now he is the one that gave me the nickname.
He introduces me like that. He goes, this is bull
the shit asylum.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So oh man, next episode, here we go.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
So he is infinitely more educated than I am, and
Brilliant reads Greek and Latin, and I hate his guts.
He talks about and he's writing about this right now
in its application to our fraternity, that before the rise
of organized religion, and in particular the Big One, all
the people that learned, people in that whole area around
(19:40):
Alexandria and Greece and all the Mediterranean, they guided their
lives by the daily employment of philosophy. For them, it
wasn't just a thing they studied. It wasn't just an
intangible discipline or study. It was an actual discipline that
they employed it regularly. And so the cardinal virtues, you know,
(20:02):
they didn't come from Constantine. They existed long before that,
and people had their own little philosophical toolboxes and they
used them to make decisions and to determine what they
should do next, and how they should behave and how
they should react things and had a deal with something
that happened to them. We didn't give it a toolbox.
Right there, you can read it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I want to talk about that point because it's explained
the hierarchy of needs, the self actualization and the awakening
moment that you have and all the wonderful thing. I'm
curious if the reader when you get it, when you
officially get that, is it the same feeling when you
(20:44):
accept Maslow's needs and go, Okay, I'm going to understand this,
I'm going to start living my life. I'm going to
recognize this, I'm going to be looking for the next step.
Is it the same as like when you get the
working tools explained to you and then you actually go, hey,
this is how they could practically apply these lessons or
the symbology into my every day life.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I think so. Yeah, And I think that that's another
gift that we get like that. You know, it's it's
a if you think about it, it's it's one of
the first places where people were given time management tools
and and you know, and and and de escalation tools.
That's what those things are, you know, they are they're
not only are they symbols and everything, but of philosophical ideas.
(21:22):
They're management tools when you think about it, they're very
pragmatic and very practically And yeah, I think I think that. Uh,
I think the moment is very similar to that.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
One other thing I wanted to get to is you
do an excellent job of connecting the degree works, especially
in this episode, as you've outlined with everyday life, and
one of the other quotables from you is quote the
work of exemplifying prudence does not occur when one is
studying the virtue, but when one is confronted in daily
life by a choice which requires a prudent judgment. The
(22:20):
work of performings one duty to one's neighbor is not
fulfilled by resuscitation or recitation sorry it's reset reciting a ritual,
but by actually assisting one's neighbor. The monastery of Freemasonry
is ordinary life. It is wherever it exists. The more
often one does this work, the more often one may
(22:41):
experience it. You were kind of speaking to Maslow's everyday epiphanies,
and you did kind of talk about one of those
instances with the Hundi and the guy and prudence and virtue.
But I really like the idea of coming to the
aid of one's neighbor, especially when we live in a
time and it just seems to be a lot of relationships,
(23:02):
especially with people that we call neighbors, are transactional. Many
of us don't live in those communities that we grew
up in anymore. We've moved to other parts of the country.
We have neighbors that are constantly on the coming and
the going. We don't even know their last names, or
as you have said, we don't know the music they like.
We don't know anything about this person. We haven't had
those up until two am meetings or conversations. So I
(23:26):
want to kind of get to that point about what
makes freemasonry different in that mindset, and that it's the
guy who's been it's the guy from Alabama who has
raised the right way, who is taught to open the
door for someone, not because you're waiting for them to
say thank you for opening the door, but because you
know it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Also, you're first, you know, you're the first guy there,
so old the door for the people behind you. Hmm. No,
it's just a simple courtesy.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
These little everyday moments. Because that recently happened to me
where we were. We were in Greece and we're you know,
not to sound bougie or you're on a cruise. My
wife and.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
I this is a big rich guy here.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, I was just renting the yacht for the week.
But no, I was sitting in the hot tub, and
I realized, you know, there was this couple that was
sitting acrossrom me. They were speaking a different language. I
noticed out of the corner of my eye that they
connected with another group that was coming to the hot tub.
I was sitting next to them. I got up and
(24:26):
offered my seat to the lady that, you know, the
new person that came in. And then all of a sudden,
the guy looks over to me and says, in perfect English,
almost like you must be an American. And I'm like,
uh yeah, it turns out there South African. And I'm
like why, and he's like, because nobody else does that
that offers these seats, And I'm like, well, I was
just raised right. I don't think it has anything to
do with being an American. I'm not they are your
(24:48):
friends now, I'm not going to sit in the middle
of people in a conversation. I can gladly offer up
my seat. And to me, it was one of those
everyday epiphanies where it's like, I'm living by a code
as a man in a Mason that I choose to
live by. I'm not expecting other people to live by this.
It doesn't make me better than them. It's just that
the old it's the golden it's the ultimate golden rule.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Thing.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
I'm just doing to other people how I would want
to be treated, because I believe that that's that's what's right.
And I felt like your quote speaks to that that
it's these everyday, little life moments that show you that
you're on the right path. We get tested in a way, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
We do. We're tested from the moment we wake up
to the moment we go back to sleep, and maybe
even in our dreams. I suppose we're always in the
middle of being tested, because that's what life is. You're
always you're always with the living of it. And having
a handy tool box around is a good thing to do.
And there's a reason why prudence is first. And I
think I'm stealing from my friend Scott right now. You
(25:50):
need to have him on Prudence is first because prudence
is the most important of the virtues. And prudence is
about discernment, it's about making good decisions, is about understanding
what your effect, what the effect of your actions are
going to be, not only on yourself and your life,
(26:10):
but in other people involved, even the people that I
don't know if you're in a lawsuit, even the people
that are on the other side. Prudence is about understanding
what you're doing and making making a good decision. Mostly,
you can think of it as discernment. Without prudence, how
can you be temperate because you don't know, you don't
know who to chastise, and you don't know why is
(26:32):
it yourself? Is it somebody else? Without prudence, don't you
don't know that this is a moment to engage fortitude.
And without prudence, you don't realize that you're in a
moment that requires justice. Prudence is the most important of
the virtues, and it is the foundation of a good
social biology, good social philosophy. And in terms of the
(26:53):
things happening every day, this is the hardest part of
making a good and better you know, the hardest part
is for you to work on yourself and recognize that.
You know, if you look in our charge and it
comes to duties and all that stuff, we're last, right,
(27:14):
we're last, and and our neighbors are right before us,
and God is right before that and and so I
think people need to pay attention. There's nothing in a
ritual that is that is accidental. It's all it's it's
all purposefully written, and it's all meticulously written, and people
should pay attention to it that way. When when you
(27:36):
recognize that, then you are able to to apply the
virtues and any other tools we have in various times
in your life to give yourself enough time in the
moment to decide how to act, and to decide how
to act in such a way that fulfills those virtues,
that you act prudently and you act temperately, and you
(27:59):
delivered just to you know, as it is required. And
and so that's what the toolboxes give you, is that
is that ability to have a moment. There's a buffer
between the stimulation that you receive, you know, the comment
on Facebook that enrages you, okay, and and then the
(28:19):
time when you begin to bang on the keys and response.
There's a moment right there, and in that moment is
when the virtue should automatically show up in your mind.
And you know, the first one should be hey is
this proven? And the answers them as always know. So
to me, that's that's what it's about, is is living
it that way, and it's it's not just about our
(28:40):
interactions with other people. It's about everything you know. I mean,
you can even apply to such simple things as watching television,
you know, because the things that you pay attention to
become who you are. So maybe ask yourself, should I
be watching Rick and Morty? The answer is yes, because
I am pickled Rick. And you know, should I be
(29:01):
spending so much time surfing Reddit down this rabbit hole?
Would it be more prudent to spend a little bit
to spend that time doing something that's more real?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
You know, you actually have a much brighter and nicer
way of putting it. I sit here and go, Okay,
of course I love my wife, of course, of course
I do. But ultimately, when I'm filling my pants, or
I'm not feeling well or i can barely get out
of bed, I'm going to need her to want to
take care of me. So should I go back and
(29:36):
play in my PS five for a few hours or
would it kill me to just sit here and watch
Real Housewives of filling whatever area it is for an hour?
Just Yeah, you talk about quality time and making moments count,
but those are like the little things. But seriously to
what you're saying, like, yeah, you learn as a mason.
When we talk about you know the twenty four inch gage.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
No wait, no eight, I want to go back real housewives.
Don't forget because for me, it's ninety day fiance. My wife. Oh,
take her discuss. Oh Jesus, don't forget when you're sitting
there and you decided that this is what we're gonna
watch because I love her and I married her on
purpose and she deserves this. Remember this. Ask questions about
(30:16):
the cast because it matters to her. All right.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
We had to get separate internet in our house so
that when I'm doing these podcast episodes, she can watch
what is it? Ninety day fiance? Ninety day? The other way,
the ninety something. I didn't know they made all of those. Hey,
if you've enjoyed this time with our guest, Worshipful Brother
Bull Garlington, you are gonna love Thursday Subscriber extra episode
(30:41):
on Patreon. You can join us for just five dollars
a month, get ad free episodes and the subscriber extra episodes.
I'll even give you a test drive right now. Find
the link to sign up for your seven day trial
and the notes for this episode. I'm right, Worshipful Brother
Michael Arsa. Until our time together next week. Let peace
and harmony prevail.
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Launch, Concordant Body, a Pendant Body,
a Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey, welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only
Masonic podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York.
I'm your host, right worship of Brother Michael Arsa. It
is good to have you back on this Monday morning.
We are still looking to close out this year strong
on Patreon. A reminder we're trying to get twenty new
subscribers before the end of the year. Craftsman Online is
(00:50):
on Patreon. Here's what you get. AD free episodes and
access to the full back catalog of all of our
subscriber extra episodes.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
That's whall.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
We get some extra time some of our favorite guests,
like this week's guest, Worshipful Brother Bull Garlington, will be
expanding on his discussion of maybe Maslow's pyramid couldwork dot
dot dot. You support the show five dollars a month.
We thank you so much for an advance for that
and our thank you to you. AD free episodes and
more content. It's a win win. So, as we mentioned
(01:21):
this week, we have a returning champion as we get
ready to talk about Maslow's hierarchy and the Masonic Journey.
He's one of my favorite brothers to talk about. I'm
so proud of him as he is an Oxford Man
now and making time to join us on the Craftsman
Online podcast. Worshipful brother Bull Garlington, Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Back, Thank you, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So the last time we had you on the podcast,
we talked about our friend Joseph Campbell. We got into
the hero's journey. You teased a little bit about Maslow
and the pyramid and the his theory of the hierarchy
of needs. We're going to get into that, and you're like,
I gotta share this paper with you. Then I read
it and I was like, Oh, this.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Guy, this is why it's going to Oxford. Come on.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
So I want to dive into this, but I want
to help our listener out who may be unfamiliar with
the pyramid with the theory, give us a quick overview.
But you got to do it in the bowl Garlington perspective.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I mean, that's the only one I have. So when
I began to look at this because I learned about
it because another mason mentioned it to me and he was,
you know, mansplaining something and he mentioned Maslow's pyramid. I'm like,
I never heard of that, and he, you know, sent
me a link and everything, blah blah. I read about it.
I'm like, that sounds familiar, and so I looked into it.
(02:29):
First of all, it's not really a pyramid, and Maslow
never Maslow was a was an early twentieth century of
social social science social scientist, and he developed a theory
called Maslow's theory of needs or Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
(02:52):
And what it is is when he says needs, he's
talking about the most basic needs that humans have in
order to divel It's the basic path of human development
expressed through what we need in each stage. And he
did a lot of work on this, and he boiled
it down to three basic stages, and you can and
(03:15):
those are broken apart a little more, and that's how
people get the pyramid part. But it basically is Stage
one is making sure you have a roof over your
head and you've got food. The second section is about
socialization and connecting with people and belonging, which is important,
and then the final section is self actualization, and I
thought that sounds just like three degrees.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
For our YouTube live streamer. You've got the triangle there
as part of Bull's research paper. But for the listener,
you'll see where there's a quick parallel. Why he mentioned
it during the Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey because there's that
one part in the arc of the hero's journey where
there's that self actualization moment, that awakening AHA moment in life.
(04:00):
And Maslow kind of lists this at the top of
his hierarchy. Is why is that? And then everything else
comes from that? Or is it from the ground to
the top.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
It's the final It's the final part of human development.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Gotcha?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Okay, it's basically it's basically our goal is.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
To find is to have that AHA moment in life
to answer the question of why am I here? What
am I supposed to be doing? What's my purpose?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Right?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
And now for our listener that may have gone through
the secrets that you and I share, now I can
start to see that moment lining up with you and
why a brother would say, oh, this is just like
Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and you're like, what are you
talking about? So how do you explain that in your
way connecting to our Masonic experience.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Really, part of the needs that Maslow talks about are
usually already taken care of when someone decides to join
our viternity, because most guys join between twenty five and
thirty five, and they usually already have a career, they've
got a job, they've got a family. They kind of
have their basic needs met. They're not struggling in the
(05:05):
sense that they have a roof over their head, they're safe,
and so they've had the first part of Maslow's hierarchy
of needs satisfied. Although there is a lot of criticism
about the simplification or how simple Maslow's needs are stated,
I feel that there's a purpose in that because it
(05:27):
allows people to interpret them in broader circumstances, and I
think that's a very good People talk about how the
first section with the roof over your head, that there's
much more to it than just having food and shelter,
to which I reply, of course, every generation develops new needs.
And Maslow didn't talk about psychological safety, and he didn't
(05:51):
talk about, you know, social safety because those things really
hadn't weren't part of his regular day, so to speak.
But the next section, the next phase of the hierarchy
of needs is to me, one of the most important,
and that is that that once those needs are met,
(06:13):
a human being needs to belong to a group that
accepts them. And to me, that's automatically the first and
first and second degree right there. And then so they
have to spend a long time being part of a
group whose tenets and principles and precepts they respect and
(06:34):
admire and and it reflects who they are. At the
same time they need to be part of that need
is they need to be simultaneously accepted and respected by
the people in that group. So you have to recognize them,
and then you have to be recognized by them, and
then you have to maintain your membership in that group
(06:54):
by exemplifying the ideals that that group represents. And so
that's a huge part of the second phase, and it's
a big and long part of our life. We tend
to belong to more than one group, and we you know,
we come out of a group and go into another group. Finally,
after that is the final part of Maslow's hierarchy needs,
(07:18):
and that is self actualization. And to me, that's absolutely
what the third degree is all about, and that is
about answering the age old and enduring and constant question
the foundation of philosophy, and that is why am I here?
What is my purpose? And when you do fulfill all
the hierachyve needs prior to that, you are on the
(07:40):
path to answer that question. Typically, from what I've read
in Maslow and in some of the other social scientists
and psychologists is that self actualization tends to happen later
in life. Not many people get it early. There's a
lot that has to happen in your life to sort
of opened up that channel.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, you got to have experiences.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yeah, absolutely, And that that whole thing about in Maso's
higher needs, about belonging to a group and exemplifying the
principles of those groups. That's not an immediate thing, and
and so that takes a long time. But once you
have achieved that that second phase, it's still a long
(08:25):
road to actual self actualization. Even though people painted is
a little tip of the pyramid. First of all, Maso
hated the idea of the pyramid. He'd never called it
the pyramid. Ever, to him it was it was more
like smoke. Even though it's represented as very small, it's
an enormous and long period of effort and uh. And
(08:48):
to me, I think it represents the richest part of
a person's life. And since we're talking about what we're
talking about, I'm just going to say, at the richest
part of a man's life, I think happens in section
where he is trying to determine why he is here.
I think that that is one of the most important
and during questions we.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Have So knowing you you didn't get this explanation while
you were going through the degrees, I'd liked for you
to tell us, like, how did this has just come out?
Because no one's going to say at the bar one
night over a drink, Oh, you should have investigate Maslow.
He talked all about the needs and that's what's going on,
that's not happening. So if you could just the readers
(09:27):
digest like what led into this conversation. And then most importantly,
I'm interested in knowing once you hear this and it
comes into your brain and you're like, well, let me
steal on this for a while when you were chewing
on it. What was your thought process of trying to go, yeah,
he's onto something here. Now I'm seeing it, now I'm
living it.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
When I wrote this paper a while back, I was
still operating. I was still in an early part of
my self actualization, and so in a lot of ways,
Mike talks and my presentations were really about me. And
what I really enjoyed doing was finding templates and overlays
(10:05):
from culture that fit directly over Freemasonry in order to
constantly point out its universality, you know, like with the
Hero's Journey Boy hatted Is. It failed nicely on that
and then on Maso's hieracypedies, Gee whiz. It kind of
dubtails mass that we change every seven years, a kid
at seven, a kid at fourteen, a kid at twenty one,
(10:28):
each part each we tend to have, you know, in general,
seven year phases. And I mean it's not to the
day or anything. But Maslow and Ingel and some of
these other guys were philosophers. They weren't lab scientists, and
they weren't really social scientists or psychologists. They were more
like philosophers. That doesn't mean that what they talked about
(10:49):
was incorrect, but it does mean that in most cases,
I don't think they did a lot of hard science
field testing of their ideas. I think that they thought
to themselves, that they gave it critical think, and that
they moled over with the tools of logic and rhetoric
and et cetera, and thought themselves this holds water.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Worship of Brother Pulck Garlington is our guest on the
Craftsman Online podcast. He's graciously offered up his paper on
Maslow's hierarchy and the Masonic Journey. If you're interested in
getting that, just open the show notes for this episode. Bang,
you're going to find the link right there that connects
back to it for those that have read the paper
or those that are just interested. One of the concepts
(11:52):
that you introduce is peak experiences. And as you were
talking about your Oxford going back to school working on
that degree at sixty, does that qualify as a peak experience?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I think a peak First of all. I hope no
one believes that I came up with the idea of
a peak experience. I definitely did not, and it wasn't Maso.
It was somebody else that British guy came up with
that and to clarify what a peak experience is is
it's a moment in your life where it transcends all
your entire life up into that moment. A lot of
(12:26):
people equate it with the birth of a child, but
I think that I think it's greater than that. To me,
it's more similar to a religious experience, and it doesn't
have to be religion at all. Mountain climbers talk about
it a lot. I mean, they're on a peak, so
whatever it's, it's when it's when something happens and for
a brief moment, you're sort of outside time and you're
(12:50):
sort of having an experience that is untranslatable, and when
you're finished with it, you want to share with everybody
and you are definitely a different person after that.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Absolutely, that would easily apply to the initiation process, that
the being raised process, the first and the third degrees
in freemasonry.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Well, I think there's a very specific moment it applies to.
But I'm not sure if we can talk about it here.
I mean, can you depause for mantor let me tell
you what it is and you can edit that part
out if if it's not appropriate. Right, So, so, if
I have to explain this. I'm going to be talking
about that moment and the first degree where they where
(13:31):
they remove the blindfold. All right, And so I don't
know if I can. I don't know who listens to
your podcast, and I don't.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Know that is that is out there, that is in
all the ritual that's online.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
So right, that's you could you could buy that book, yeah,
get in the library. So to me, that is one
of the most transcendent moments of a free issue when
and here I go again, when it's properly managed and curated. Yes,
and this is the most important part. Candidate should take
a long time to get there, a long time. And
(14:05):
my lodge, it's eighteen months. And in that time, that
guy has many opportunities to walk away, and sometimes that happens,
but if they don't, they become such an integral part
of everyone's life. They've been in our homes and we've
given them a ride, We've bought them drinks. So if
we've hung out till two in the morning talking about
all kinds of stuff, life and everything, and you know,
(14:27):
we've recommended books, they've recommended books. I know what they
like in music, they know what I like. We are friends.
Now we're in each other's lives, not just me, but
every guy in the launch. All right, we love this
person now and they love us. We've all fallen in
love together. When that moment happens and they say, let
there be light. When that person looks up, they know
(14:50):
every single person that they're looking at in that room,
and every one of those people represents this society, and
every one of them is beaming in them and saying welcome,
and that is send and experience in our lodge. It
is typically the time where someone is brought to tears,
and not just a guy kneeling. It is a heartfelt moment.
(15:13):
To me, that is definitely a peak moment.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
As you're describing that. For me, I was still wondering
what the hell was going on in the first degree
because it was completely different than what I thought. And
I had watched all the YouTube videos so I knew everything.
But the one that really got to me was physically
being raised in the third degree and seeing those people
(15:37):
that I've respected in the room, those men looking at
me and me looking at them, and just realizing we
just made a lifelong bond, like this just happened, and
I would never have met this person, I would probably
never have interacted with them if it wasn't for this
shared experience, like right here, right now, and I'll never
forget them for the rest of my life. There's no
way to wipe that. And it shapes you. I do
(15:58):
want to talk about the things that you have written,
because your paper is full of the good bowl, as
I like to say. And when you talk about living
our virtues, and that's kind of the theme here. You
write freemasonry is not relegated to the period when one
is satisfying the minimum requirements to progress to the next degree,
but observed and engaged for the rest of one's light.
(16:22):
What was the experience that shaped that quote and brought
it out.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
I was an asshole one day. I was. I was
just one day.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
There was a particular day while I was being an asshole.
I was we were redoing our kitchen and I was
at the tile place. It had these special tiles that
we'd picked out that we're ready, and I was going
to go load them up or bring them to the
guys or at my house. On the clock. Tigo is
impossible to part and so there's the loading dock and
I'm waiting for the people in the loading dock to leave.
(16:58):
And finally they leave and I get ready to get
in the dock and somebody just swoops in and parks here.
And I've been there for forty five minutes, and I'm like, oh,
oh no. And so I found some actual parking and
I parked there, and I just I stalked into that
store and I said, who's got the red Hyundi? And
I goes, that's me. I'm like, what kind of an
(17:19):
asshole are you? I was there, I've been waiting for
forty five minutes. And then he goes, he goes, hey,
he goes, I'm so sorry. I didn't know you'd been waiting.
I thought you were just parked on the street. You
want me to go move my car? And then I
was like, uh cramp. And as I'm stalking away, I'm like,
oh man, what a turd, you know? And it suddenly
(17:43):
just it just showed up in my head and it
was like not very prudent of you, not really temperate either,
you know. And then and then it was like is
that just? And I was like God. And so I
went back in and I found them. I go, hey,
I'm so sorry. About that. I'd have no right to
(18:07):
talk to you that way, and that was not who
I normally am. And I want to apologize for being
a jerk. And the guy goes, hey, man, I understand,
don't worry about it. He goes, We're almost done. And
then when he came out, he held the space for me,
you know. And so so that's how that was the
first time I realized that the virtues don't matter until
(18:29):
you use them, and you don't own them until you
use them. And that is that is a an important
thing to learn, and it's something we should talk about
all the time. You should have. You should have when
guys are in the first degree their mentors, besides teaching
the Catechism, they should be sitting around going, tell me
(18:49):
about how you use temperance this week, tell me about
something where you had to employ engage with fortitude. They
should be talking about that. You know, the guy I
told you about, Scott, he oh, I.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Thought you meant the asshole at the Red Hunter.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Sorry, now he is the one that gave me the nickname.
He introduces me like that. He goes, this is bull
the shit asylum.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So oh man, next episode, here we go.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
So he is infinitely more educated than I am, and
Brilliant reads Greek and Latin, and I hate his guts.
He talks about and he's writing about this right now
in its application to our fraternity, that before the rise
of organized religion, and in particular the Big One, all
the people that learned, people in that whole area around
(19:40):
Alexandria and Greece and all the Mediterranean, they guided their
lives by the daily employment of philosophy. For them, it
wasn't just a thing they studied. It wasn't just an
intangible discipline or study. It was an actual discipline that
they employed it regularly. And so the cardinal virtues, you know,
(20:02):
they didn't come from Constantine. They existed long before that,
and people had their own little philosophical toolboxes and they
used them to make decisions and to determine what they
should do next, and how they should behave and how
they should react things and had a deal with something
that happened to them. We didn't give it a toolbox.
Right there, you can read it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I want to talk about that point because it's explained
the hierarchy of needs, the self actualization and the awakening
moment that you have and all the wonderful thing. I'm
curious if the reader when you get it, when you
officially get that, is it the same feeling when you
(20:44):
accept Maslow's needs and go, Okay, I'm going to understand this,
I'm going to start living my life. I'm going to
recognize this, I'm going to be looking for the next step.
Is it the same as like when you get the
working tools explained to you and then you actually go, hey,
this is how they could practically apply these lessons or
the symbology into my every day life.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I think so. Yeah, And I think that that's another
gift that we get like that. You know, it's it's
a if you think about it, it's it's one of
the first places where people were given time management tools
and and you know, and and and de escalation tools.
That's what those things are, you know, they are they're
not only are they symbols and everything, but of philosophical ideas.
(21:22):
They're management tools when you think about it, they're very
pragmatic and very practically And yeah, I think I think that. Uh,
I think the moment is very similar to that.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
One other thing I wanted to get to is you
do an excellent job of connecting the degree works, especially
in this episode, as you've outlined with everyday life, and
one of the other quotables from you is quote the
work of exemplifying prudence does not occur when one is
studying the virtue, but when one is confronted in daily
life by a choice which requires a prudent judgment. The
(22:20):
work of performings one duty to one's neighbor is not
fulfilled by resuscitation or recitation sorry it's reset reciting a ritual,
but by actually assisting one's neighbor. The monastery of Freemasonry
is ordinary life. It is wherever it exists. The more
often one does this work, the more often one may
(22:41):
experience it. You were kind of speaking to Maslow's everyday epiphanies,
and you did kind of talk about one of those
instances with the Hundi and the guy and prudence and virtue.
But I really like the idea of coming to the
aid of one's neighbor, especially when we live in a
time and it just seems to be a lot of relationships,
(23:02):
especially with people that we call neighbors, are transactional. Many
of us don't live in those communities that we grew
up in anymore. We've moved to other parts of the country.
We have neighbors that are constantly on the coming and
the going. We don't even know their last names, or
as you have said, we don't know the music they like.
We don't know anything about this person. We haven't had
those up until two am meetings or conversations. So I
(23:26):
want to kind of get to that point about what
makes freemasonry different in that mindset, and that it's the
guy who's been it's the guy from Alabama who has
raised the right way, who is taught to open the
door for someone, not because you're waiting for them to
say thank you for opening the door, but because you
know it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Also, you're first, you know, you're the first guy there,
so old the door for the people behind you. Hmm. No,
it's just a simple courtesy.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
These little everyday moments. Because that recently happened to me
where we were. We were in Greece and we're you know,
not to sound bougie or you're on a cruise. My
wife and.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
I this is a big rich guy here.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, I was just renting the yacht for the week.
But no, I was sitting in the hot tub, and
I realized, you know, there was this couple that was
sitting acrossrom me. They were speaking a different language. I
noticed out of the corner of my eye that they
connected with another group that was coming to the hot tub.
I was sitting next to them. I got up and
(24:26):
offered my seat to the lady that, you know, the
new person that came in. And then all of a sudden,
the guy looks over to me and says, in perfect English,
almost like you must be an American. And I'm like,
uh yeah, it turns out there South African. And I'm
like why, and he's like, because nobody else does that
that offers these seats, And I'm like, well, I was
just raised right. I don't think it has anything to
do with being an American. I'm not they are your
(24:48):
friends now, I'm not going to sit in the middle
of people in a conversation. I can gladly offer up
my seat. And to me, it was one of those
everyday epiphanies where it's like, I'm living by a code
as a man in a Mason that I choose to
live by. I'm not expecting other people to live by this.
It doesn't make me better than them. It's just that
the old it's the golden it's the ultimate golden rule.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Thing.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
I'm just doing to other people how I would want
to be treated, because I believe that that's that's what's right.
And I felt like your quote speaks to that that
it's these everyday, little life moments that show you that
you're on the right path. We get tested in a way, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
We do. We're tested from the moment we wake up
to the moment we go back to sleep, and maybe
even in our dreams. I suppose we're always in the
middle of being tested, because that's what life is. You're
always you're always with the living of it. And having
a handy tool box around is a good thing to do.
And there's a reason why prudence is first. And I
think I'm stealing from my friend Scott right now. You
(25:50):
need to have him on Prudence is first because prudence
is the most important of the virtues. And prudence is
about discernment, it's about making good decisions, is about understanding
what your effect, what the effect of your actions are
going to be, not only on yourself and your life,
(26:10):
but in other people involved, even the people that I
don't know if you're in a lawsuit, even the people
that are on the other side. Prudence is about understanding
what you're doing and making making a good decision. Mostly,
you can think of it as discernment. Without prudence, how
can you be temperate because you don't know, you don't
know who to chastise, and you don't know why is
(26:32):
it yourself? Is it somebody else? Without prudence, don't you
don't know that this is a moment to engage fortitude.
And without prudence, you don't realize that you're in a
moment that requires justice. Prudence is the most important of
the virtues, and it is the foundation of a good
social biology, good social philosophy. And in terms of the
(26:53):
things happening every day, this is the hardest part of
making a good and better you know, the hardest part
is for you to work on yourself and recognize that.
You know, if you look in our charge and it
comes to duties and all that stuff, we're last, right,
(27:14):
we're last, and and our neighbors are right before us,
and God is right before that and and so I
think people need to pay attention. There's nothing in a
ritual that is that is accidental. It's all it's it's
all purposefully written, and it's all meticulously written, and people
should pay attention to it that way. When when you
(27:36):
recognize that, then you are able to to apply the
virtues and any other tools we have in various times
in your life to give yourself enough time in the
moment to decide how to act, and to decide how
to act in such a way that fulfills those virtues,
that you act prudently and you act temperately, and you
(27:59):
delivered just to you know, as it is required. And
and so that's what the toolboxes give you, is that
is that ability to have a moment. There's a buffer
between the stimulation that you receive, you know, the comment
on Facebook that enrages you, okay, and and then the
(28:19):
time when you begin to bang on the keys and response.
There's a moment right there, and in that moment is
when the virtue should automatically show up in your mind.
And you know, the first one should be hey is
this proven? And the answers them as always know. So
to me, that's that's what it's about, is is living
it that way, and it's it's not just about our
(28:40):
interactions with other people. It's about everything you know. I mean,
you can even apply to such simple things as watching television,
you know, because the things that you pay attention to
become who you are. So maybe ask yourself, should I
be watching Rick and Morty? The answer is yes, because
I am pickled Rick. And you know, should I be
(29:01):
spending so much time surfing Reddit down this rabbit hole?
Would it be more prudent to spend a little bit
to spend that time doing something that's more real?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
You know, you actually have a much brighter and nicer
way of putting it. I sit here and go, Okay,
of course I love my wife, of course, of course
I do. But ultimately, when I'm filling my pants, or
I'm not feeling well or i can barely get out
of bed, I'm going to need her to want to
take care of me. So should I go back and
(29:36):
play in my PS five for a few hours or
would it kill me to just sit here and watch
Real Housewives of filling whatever area it is for an hour?
Just Yeah, you talk about quality time and making moments count,
but those are like the little things. But seriously to
what you're saying, like, yeah, you learn as a mason.
When we talk about you know the twenty four inch gage.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
No wait, no eight, I want to go back real housewives.
Don't forget because for me, it's ninety day fiance. My wife. Oh,
take her discuss. Oh Jesus, don't forget when you're sitting
there and you decided that this is what we're gonna
watch because I love her and I married her on
purpose and she deserves this. Remember this. Ask questions about
(30:16):
the cast because it matters to her. All right.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
We had to get separate internet in our house so
that when I'm doing these podcast episodes, she can watch
what is it? Ninety day fiance? Ninety day? The other way,
the ninety something. I didn't know they made all of those. Hey,
if you've enjoyed this time with our guest, Worshipful Brother
Bull Garlington, you are gonna love Thursday Subscriber extra episode
(30:41):
on Patreon. You can join us for just five dollars
a month, get ad free episodes and the subscriber extra episodes.
I'll even give you a test drive right now. Find
the link to sign up for your seven day trial
and the notes for this episode. I'm right, Worshipful Brother
Michael Arsa. Until our time together next week. Let peace
and harmony prevail.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.