September 29, 2025 • 30 mins
In this fascinating episode of the Craftsmen Online Podcast, we welcome WB James Frederique, PM, L’Haitienne Lodge No. 925, Washington, DC, for a candid and insightful discussion on two traditions often seen as disparate: Haitian Vodou and Freemasonry. WB Frederique, a respected DC Freemason with deep roots in Haitian culture, will illuminate the surprising intersections, shared philosophical underpinnings, and historical connections between these complex systems of belief and practice. We'll discuss common misconceptions, explore the symbolic parallels, and examine how individuals navigate both paths.
Show notes:
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/craftsmen-online-podcast--4822031/support.
Show notes:
- Order "The Vodou Quantum Leap: Alternate Realities, Power and Mysticism" by Reginald Crosley on Amazon.
- Join us on Patreon. Start your FREE seven day trial to the Craftsmen Online Podcast and get instant access to our bonus content! Whether it's a one time donation or you become a Patreon Subscriber, we appreciate your support.
- Visit the Craftsmen Online website to learn more about our next Reading Room event, New York Masonic History, and our Masonic Education blog!
- Follow the Craftsmen Online Podcast on Spotify.
- Subscribe to the Craftsmen Online Podcast on Apple Podcasts.
- Follow Craftsmen Online on YouTube, hit subscribe and get notified the next time we go LIVE with a podcast recording!
- Yes, we're on Tik Tok and Instagram.
- Get our latest announcements and important updates in your inbox with the Craftsmen Online Newsletter.
- Email the host, RW Michael Arce! Yes, we will read your email and may even reach out to be a guest on a future episode.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/craftsmen-online-podcast--4822031/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Launch, Concordant Body, a pendant Body,
Asonic Authority, or Craftsman Online dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only Masonic
podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York. I'm
your host, right worship for Brother Michael Arsa. Welcome, Welcome,
welcome back. Before we jump into our episode this week,
a reminder you can get your questions asked and answered
on our upcoming Listener Questions and Answers episode in October.
Email any question you have, maybe it's about Freemasonry, maybe
(00:51):
it's about our podcast. It could even be a personal
question for me. Get them answered my email address. Podcast
at Craftsman online dot com. That's podcast at Craftsmen online
dot com, and we'll get those answered in our special episode.
I would love to tease some of the questions we've
gotten already. They're awesome, but I don't want to give
(01:11):
away the surprise. It's going to be fun. We're also
pushing for twenty new subscribers on Patreon this fall. Yes,
the Craftsman Online podcast is on Patreon. What you get
you get ad free episodes, you get early access, and
you get to browse our full catalog of all of
our subscriber extra episodes with select guests, plus the warm
feeling in your heart of supporting the mission of this podcast.
(01:34):
And I don't want to downplay that at all, because
so many of the guys I know that are doing
this and I appreciate your support, are doing it because
they're like, yo, RSI, we believe in you, we want
to help you out, we want to get you to
stop talking about all these commercials. And I'm like, yes,
So thank you to worshipful brother Anna Trevetti, who is
one of our Patreon subscribers. He joined us over the summertime,
(01:55):
and we really appreciate your love and support, my brother.
All right, let's get to but we're going to jump
into a very fascinating episode on a subject that could
be one of the most controversial that we've ever talked about,
Haitian voodoo or vodoo. You're going to learn the difference
between the two and how there are some surprising connections
to Freemasonry. Let me welcome in our guest this week.
(02:17):
He's the Past Master of Lysian Lodge number nine twenty
five from the Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia.
Worshipful Brother James Frederic joining us with cigar in hand.
Welcome to the Craftsman Online podcast that.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Works for It's a pleasure to be here and have
a conversation with you. I am honored and the spirits
I please because we are able to let people know
what they've been hearing from, not just social media, the
movies or whatever. There is a big difference between vodoo
(02:52):
what we spelled b D and the actual tradition that
we call vote do, which is spelled v O d O.
You in Hollywood, we've had we've seen some of those movies.
You know, there's a James Bond movie where the bios
coming from the grave coming up and that right there
(03:13):
is commercialized and it talks about zombies and how there's
poison that could administer to someone and turn you into
a zombie versus when you dive into the v O
d o U voter tradition, you learned the therapeutic side
of voter, the side that can help someone with mental illness,
the side that could you know if you see you
(03:35):
have a headache and you don't have an ivory porteen.
You know, they actually go out in the fields, grab
some herbs, come back and steep it and administer it
just to help you with that headache. So these two
are very different. Again, the voted tradition is a way
of life, and it's not just for patients. Like I've
(04:00):
said before, it is for anyone that has the connection.
And that connection is not up to me to decide
who has it. It's up to the spirit because we
are all spiritual beings.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Earlier this year, I was able to watch your presentation
on voodoo and what drew me was, Hey, we're going
to have somebody come in and not only talk about it,
but also perform some of the ritual and some of
the traditions that happened there. How did you get involved
with this and how did you find a connection to say, hey,
(04:34):
we're going to talk about this at launch.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Well, initially I discovered patient tradition or voodoo through Freemason,
because I said I have very often. If it wasn't
for Freemasonry, I would have never become part of the
voodoo tradition. Because we opened my eyes and let me
understand the different world, the different philosophies, and what it
(05:00):
means to be a true mystic. So growing up, I
grew up Lutherorn, I went to church. I had no
involvement in voodoo whatsoever until I became a mason. Probably
seven years into being a mason, I met a brother
(05:22):
and he always saw something and he kept telling me
you got something special? Does your mom? What have you practiced?
I've never seen that, but stories from family members said
way back before I was born, my mother was involved,
but by the time I came around, she was converted
(05:43):
into Christianity. I've never seen any of it. Again. I
owe this discovery my own discovery to freemasonry.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Part of this is interesting to me because it took
being away and going into a new place to find
something that you have a family and traditional connection to.
That's fascinating.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Indeed, something inde because I can't talk about anything go
do before diving first into farmaconry. Because when I came
into formasonry, I had never put in an application. I
just so happened. I got a phone call on a
Wednesday afternoon and it was someone that introduced theirselves. He said,
(06:30):
I'm work for Master so and so from rising some
thirteen in Kansas City, Missouri, and we've had your application
for over five years. And I said, oh you sure?
Are you? Are you sure you're looking for James said, yes, yes,
I've had it. And what happened our lodge building burnt down,
and the wool is if you don't have an actual building,
(06:50):
you cannot make any Masons in Missouri. So they taped
that application for about five years until they rebuilt. Then
he called me. We had a very pleasant talk and
he invited me to come to the lodge the very
evening for a tour. The first thing I did, I
(07:10):
picked up the phone. I called my brother, he's a
Lutheran pastor, and I said, you won't believe this. I
just got a phone call and I'm invited to come
see the Masonic Lodge in Kansas City. He's like, do
not go. Wow, he's more aware. He knows a lot.
He's not initiated in voted, but he knows a lot.
(07:32):
That very evening I got off work. I used to
work in Olatha, Kansas, so I drove from Kansas to
Kansas City, Missouri, where I went straight to the lodge building,
met the words for master. He gave me a tour,
and first he talked to me about for me to sin,
what to expect, what not to expect. And when I
got in there is when he dawned on me fifteen
(07:55):
or so days prior to him calling me a dream
And in that dream, I was being chased by a
bunch of people and I was running, running for my life,
and they led me into a big forest with a
bunch of trees, like very very tall trees, and I
kept running. They're running, you know, after me, and as
(08:17):
I'm going deeper and deeper, I could see what seems
to be a bush, like a blazing burning bush, and
I'm going towards it, so and at that point, the
line of people behind me they split and encircled. Like
we're running, I'm in the middle. Now they're ranting to
(08:38):
encircle me in there. And as I drew closer to
the burning bush, I just saw something that I could
describe as a maybe a very very bright light that
just snapped. And when I recognized myself, I was inside
of a room that I then recognized be very similar,
(09:01):
if not the same, as what the worst fore master
was showing me. When I went to the lodge building,
that Thursday night.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
We could do a whole episode just on that dream.
What do you think that the dream meant or what
do you think it was all about?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
See, that's where the interconnectedness of bo do information may
comes in. It took me years to understand that spirituality.
As you know as a Mason, you know, some of
us come in for the mystical aspect, but yet a
lot of Lodge don't do much of anything mystic and
(09:38):
some of us come in for the fraternity side of it.
But some of us do come because we fill this
connection with something higher than what we are, something we
don't understand, but we say, you know what, I want
to keep going. I want to find out what am I,
What is it that's drawn me into freemas henry or mysticism.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Everything that you're lying out, it totally makes sense. We
talk about it in New York and our ritual and
the first Degree. We say that your acceptance of faith
is going to be challenged by becoming a freemasonry, so
you have that foundation. One must believe in deity, one
must believe in a higher power, one must believe in
the existence of the immortality of a soul. In New
(10:49):
York State. Those are the things you agree to when
you petition to join a lodge. And there's other necessary
requirements that you have to have, and I will let
you as the interests a gentleman who wants to become
a free Mason, figure out if you check all those boxes.
But those are the three things that we've talked about
a lot on this podcast. Is what leads you to
knock on the door of a Masonic plot. It's interesting
(11:10):
to hear that your concerns about voodoo, the tradition, the
culture of it was just what most of us have
about Freemasonry is that we just weren't exposed to it,
so we don't know. It's just the fear of the unknown.
It's not all the negative stuff that's out there. It's
just the things that you're just I just don't know
what it's about. It just never really turned on for me.
(11:30):
It was just never something that I entertained. But I
would like to talk with you about some of the connections.
So let's start first with the belief in deity or
a higher power. Who or what is that in the
Voodoo tradition.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Well, in Voto tradition, the higher power, the deity. It's
very similar in Freemason we say the Grand Architect of
universe and slated into pat Creole we say or the
Grand Master of the Universe. So that's already one big
(12:06):
similarity between the two. Now jump back into the dream
and when I recognized myself in the lodge building, one
key occurring occurrence, sorry, was that I was made to
(12:26):
kneel at the altar element in front of me at
a very very big sword. When I tell you, the
sword was huge, at least i'd say about six seven feet,
hold it up, put it on my left shoulder, my
right shoulder, and in my forehead, and I woke up
from the dream. And ever since then I have been
(12:50):
trying to understand what just happened, now only with the
help offormation. Because I went there that Thursday. I got
initiated early morning Saturday, So just a day after I
visited the lodge is when I got initiated to premasonry.
(13:11):
And I took it very seriously because to me at
that point, it's not something that I was looking for,
and it came to me similar to the path that
I've taken in voodoo. And I later you know, later
on understand it's because a lot of times, I mean,
(13:33):
for the Vooded tradition, you have to be chosen. You
can't just decide, okay, I'm I'm I'm just gonna go
get initiated into the Vooded tradition. That's not the way
it works. You have to be chosen and again to
be chosen, you know, to be a chosen one, you
don't necessarily have to be of Haitian descent. Because I
(13:56):
have met a brother from Colorado past master that was
fascinated by the Haitian tradition, and he went to Haiti
on three separate occasions trying to get initiated, and every
time they turned him down occasion, he never got initiated
until on the fourth time he went to the northern
(14:17):
part of eighty and when he got there, he went
to a temple just to see what was going on.
And he his plan was to talk to somebody and
see if it's possible for them to initiate. And while
he was there, the spirit came up. One of the
spirit we do we have, it's ogu Ogueri. And if
(14:41):
you ever see his regalia whatever in Vodo, he's got
the color. The thirty third degree, the three to three
on there and everything that's aliating voted. And so that
spirit came that night and told the priests I have
chosen and this. He cannot live here without being made
(15:05):
an adoment of the Voodhed tradition. So he got initiated
and I met him in DC. I didn't know him,
and it was during the conference. It was one of
our leadership conferences. And I was clear across the room
and he he spotted me. He just walked up to
me and he asked me one question. He said, where
did you get the cut? And it was kind of
(15:27):
you know, I was taken aback because I'm like, okay,
how this You know, stranger would know to ask me
something like that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Okay. So it's similar to like Masons identifying each other
either by a ring or some sort of symbolism, Like
we can tell except you guys have Yes, we don't
have a spiritual deeper higher.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, it's just the aura. As far as Freemasonry and
VO do, a lot of us can become free Mason,
and it can happen that you find your purpose in
the voted tradition. Your path is already lined up, it's
already laid out in front of you before, because you
(16:07):
can only come if you are called.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
I mean a lot of this is parallel to other religions,
other belief systems, other faiths. So it's not an extreme
jump for me to get this. And it's interesting because
your journey from one to the other started by becoming
a Freemason first. So I'm curious when you hear brothers
who are practicing voodoo and then want to become a Freemason,
(16:35):
what do you feel like freemason does to enrich or
enhance or quote unquote make them a better man? How
does freemasonry help someone who's practicing voter Already.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
We have no philosophy in Vodo, there is no philosophy
at all. Not that is not important because there's a
lot of tradition, there's a lot of history that you
could learn. And I find that freemasonry give you the faculty,
give you the ability if you become a Mason first.
And that's why I said I'm always going to be
thankful to for Masonry, because through freemasonry, I was already
(17:12):
prepared to understand what I would have to undergo as
a priest in agony because the philosophy. Part the it
opened my mind to other Now, I won't say religion
because permission is not a religion, and I don't take
(17:34):
good as a religion. Now a lot of people would
disagree with me, and that's just my personal belief. It's
actually a state religion in Haiti, but we don't have
the dogma. We don't have, you know, some of the
key components that would qualify it as a religion. Nonetheless,
it is a religion, but to me, it's more of
(17:55):
a way of life. It's a way of life because
you have to go back to the origin. Now, Haitian
voter is completely different from the tradition you have in
Africa and West Africa, very different because a lot of
things mutated, a lot of things changed. Before the Africans came.
(18:18):
We already had the native, the Tinos, and they had
their own belief and you have the Spaniards they believed
in Catholics, sus and you have a good amount of
Poles Polish people that were fighting in the Napoleon army
and at some point they switched side and started fighting
(18:41):
with the slaves because they felt like they were not
treated any different. Although they were Polish so they had
their own thing. Because right now in Vodu, we do
have certain traditions, especially the synchronization. Our main spirit, the
female and is actually Polish.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
What's the name of that spirit.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
That's Elserly d'anti. And if you ever go to a
Polish Catholic church, that's their main patron, that's the patron
saint of Poland. There is a reason why some of
the Vudhoo spirits are hidden behind the Catholic saints or pictures,
because back then a slave would not open a practice,
(19:26):
so when they needed to do their thing, they would
just disguise it and hide everything they were doing behind
a Catholic saint a picture, but they were actually addressing
a different energy. I say all this just to get
to the point of when we talk about freemasonry being
freemasonry and Voodo being voted, there is a lot of
(19:49):
things and I'm gonna tell you one quick side story.
I was already a knight templer when I went to
Haiti to become a priest. I was in awe because
everything unless someone is a knights templar, they might have
an idea what I'm talking about. I'm not giving any
secarets out here. But the very thing, the way you
(20:12):
get dressed, the symbolism in there was the it is
the very thing that they do as you are being
prepared to become a Voodu priest. The two traditions share
a lot of coming practices, and that is only due
to the fact that back in the days Freemasonry came
(20:34):
to the island. Back in the seventeen seventeen hundreds or so,
they started having French lodges on the island. Although they
were they didn't have like a Haitian lodge because they
were still under the Grand Organ of French back then,
the Grand Lodge of France. But they did have a
(20:54):
couple lodges and a few prominent Blacks were made members
because there were probably mixed and so if you were
a freed black, you were actually allowed to become a Mason.
So if your dad was a white plantation owner and
(21:15):
you are his son, it was okay for you to
become a Mason. And we have a lot of these
sons of white plantation owners that went on to become Firmason,
and they are the one that started the revolution in hate.
They were the generals and the army the officers, so
they already knew a lot about from Mason. They have
(21:38):
come to teamed up with the maroons, and those are
the hard or slaves that wanted to not be subdued anymore.
They went into the mountains hiding and now they were
practicing good And you have the two that you know
come together.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
We talk about pursuing the Master's word in free masonry
and what is that? And it's a way of validation
saying hey, I'm a Mason because I can prove it
to you this way. It means different things to different people,
but I can see why in this situation, being able
to say I am a free Mason makes a man
feel extremely proud of himself. That's the highest form of validation.
(22:48):
Almost yes.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
And it's the same thing in voted because just as
we have for masonry as a fraternity to where once
you become a Mason, you are a brother, same tradition,
we are a community. Once you become part of that family,
we are one. And to talk about some of the misconceptions,
(23:12):
people think, okay, if there is a dance or if
there's a ceremony and then they killed a cow or
boats or chicken. These are being done as a devil
worshiping or sacrifice. It couldn't be apart from the truth
because they only do that because after they killed an animal,
(23:35):
they do not dig a big hole or put it
on fire or whatever as a sacrifice. It's actually cut up.
They cooked a big portion, and everyone in attendance actually
is able to grab whatever they need go home so
they could eat the next following couple of days. Because
(23:55):
it's a community, we come together as one, because that's
the main principle being a voodoo, not just the priests,
because you could become a conzo. That's how you become
part of the tradition, not having to be a priest,
but you just become a conzo. It only means you
are in perfect harmony with the earth, everything on earth,
(24:21):
the plants, the air, water. The four elements are the
core of what happens in voting, just as we do
have the four elements, because when you become initiated, a
lot of us probably never realize it because I only
know after the fact. When you become a mason, you
(24:44):
go through the initiations through the four elements, same thing
in voted.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
This has been just a fascinating walkthrough, and I really
really appreciate your time. I kind of want to get
you out of here on this question because we end
up talking about rituals so much on this podcast and
it only kind of dawned on me with a guess
we had on a little bit earlier this year where
he was like, you know, quit giving all this firewood
(25:10):
for all the haters out there, because you say the
word ritual and people immediately start thinking, as you're saying,
like sacrificial, something that's unholy, that's not pure, and could
be further from the truth, especially in Freemasonry. But of
course being this secret society or society with secrets, as
we prefer to say it, it doesn't help our case.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
The same thing can be true with voodoo. When you
talk about voodoo ritual, people start thinking of this dark
magic or this scary thing, or you know, resurrecting the
dead or just crazy stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
So, you performed a Haitian ritual ceremony for us, a
cleansing in the lodge, kind of walk us through that
basic ceremony and what was happening, What were you trying
to invoke, what was the purpose of it?
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Who were not actually invoke in any particular spirit. This
there was a ceremony of veneration, because we do believe
in our ancestors. Just like you would see a Jewish person,
you know in Brooklyn, what do they get the chicken
slit the throat for the blood, and then you see
they ask the chicken over the body. So essentially it's
(26:22):
the same thing. However, what I did in the lodge
was you seeing the fire the air, not the earth
was there as well in the water. So it was
indeed a harmonization of the four elements. And again it's
part of the voodoo ceremonies or ritual, and there could
(26:45):
not be a ritual without drumming, singing, and people that
are open, people that are brave enough to want to
be what we call well I translate into English a horse,
which means you are a vessel. You have opened up
(27:05):
yourself to the energy. Now it's it's where a lot
of people get confused because if someone is mounted by
one of the loires, people don't understand because you start
doing things that you normally would do. You know, stuff
that you don't know how you know it. The person
that you're talking to you telling him certain things about
sell their family, what is going on? Those are things
(27:29):
unless you were part of their family or a few generations,
you would know. And again it's because once you have
harmonized the four element, it opens the door for different entities.
Nothing negative, more or less. The spirits the louise because
(27:51):
we have about four hundred and one. There's more, but
we know of four hundred and one, and some of
them are close to human beings and those are the
gid is, the by ones. Those are the ones family
members that have passed and now they are in the
spiritual in the spirit world world. So there they are
(28:14):
able to connect with you and bring messages and sort
of what the Catholic would call you a guardian and right,
and as you see, you know we do have information.
We have two patrons saints, and we do have both
of them in the Haitian tradition as well, and each
one of them represent a different connection to us pretty
(28:37):
much what we know they do informationy. They do the
same thing in the Haitian tradition as well.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I have learned so much in this conversation. I'm hoping
the same is true for our listener. If anything, I
think it helps hearing brothers like you talk helps us
put our guards down and just like accept, understand and
want to learn more. So my last question, Worship is
if there's a listener right now who's like, hey, you
know what, I would like to learn more about this,
(29:06):
but I know there's so much stuff out there that's
it's not good. Where would you recommend someone go to
learn more about Haitian voodoo or the culture or the tradition.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
On a very philosophical and high level, I would recommend
a book called Voodoo One Time Leap, and it's by
doctor Reginald Crossley. He actually lived here in Maryland. He
wrote a book where he explained what Aitian voodoo really is,
(29:39):
what it's not, and what it can be, and it's
so deep. I would definitely recommend again. It's called Voodoo
One Time Leap and the author is doctor Reginald Crossley,
a Haitian born African American.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Thanks again to my guest this week, Worshipful Brother James Frederic.
If you've enjoyed this episode, you want to get that
book or you want to start your seven day free
trial with the Craftsman Online podcast on Patreon. You get
all of those links in the show notes for this episode. Yeah,
just open it up on your browser, your player, whatever
you're watching for episode description. Bang, you'll see it right there.
(30:23):
I'm right, worshipful brother Michael Lars, until our time together
next Monday. But peace and harmony prevail
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Launch, Concordant Body, a pendant Body,
Asonic Authority, or Craftsman Online dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only Masonic
podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York. I'm
your host, right worship for Brother Michael Arsa. Welcome, Welcome,
welcome back. Before we jump into our episode this week,
a reminder you can get your questions asked and answered
on our upcoming Listener Questions and Answers episode in October.
Email any question you have, maybe it's about Freemasonry, maybe
(00:51):
it's about our podcast. It could even be a personal
question for me. Get them answered my email address. Podcast
at Craftsman online dot com. That's podcast at Craftsmen online
dot com, and we'll get those answered in our special episode.
I would love to tease some of the questions we've
gotten already. They're awesome, but I don't want to give
(01:11):
away the surprise. It's going to be fun. We're also
pushing for twenty new subscribers on Patreon this fall. Yes,
the Craftsman Online podcast is on Patreon. What you get
you get ad free episodes, you get early access, and
you get to browse our full catalog of all of
our subscriber extra episodes with select guests, plus the warm
feeling in your heart of supporting the mission of this podcast.
(01:34):
And I don't want to downplay that at all, because
so many of the guys I know that are doing
this and I appreciate your support, are doing it because
they're like, yo, RSI, we believe in you, we want
to help you out, we want to get you to
stop talking about all these commercials. And I'm like, yes,
So thank you to worshipful brother Anna Trevetti, who is
one of our Patreon subscribers. He joined us over the summertime,
(01:55):
and we really appreciate your love and support, my brother.
All right, let's get to but we're going to jump
into a very fascinating episode on a subject that could
be one of the most controversial that we've ever talked about,
Haitian voodoo or vodoo. You're going to learn the difference
between the two and how there are some surprising connections
to Freemasonry. Let me welcome in our guest this week.
(02:17):
He's the Past Master of Lysian Lodge number nine twenty
five from the Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia.
Worshipful Brother James Frederic joining us with cigar in hand.
Welcome to the Craftsman Online podcast that.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Works for It's a pleasure to be here and have
a conversation with you. I am honored and the spirits
I please because we are able to let people know
what they've been hearing from, not just social media, the
movies or whatever. There is a big difference between vodoo
(02:52):
what we spelled b D and the actual tradition that
we call vote do, which is spelled v O d O.
You in Hollywood, we've had we've seen some of those movies.
You know, there's a James Bond movie where the bios
coming from the grave coming up and that right there
(03:13):
is commercialized and it talks about zombies and how there's
poison that could administer to someone and turn you into
a zombie versus when you dive into the v O
d o U voter tradition, you learned the therapeutic side
of voter, the side that can help someone with mental illness,
the side that could you know if you see you
(03:35):
have a headache and you don't have an ivory porteen.
You know, they actually go out in the fields, grab
some herbs, come back and steep it and administer it
just to help you with that headache. So these two
are very different. Again, the voted tradition is a way
of life, and it's not just for patients. Like I've
(04:00):
said before, it is for anyone that has the connection.
And that connection is not up to me to decide
who has it. It's up to the spirit because we
are all spiritual beings.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Earlier this year, I was able to watch your presentation
on voodoo and what drew me was, Hey, we're going
to have somebody come in and not only talk about it,
but also perform some of the ritual and some of
the traditions that happened there. How did you get involved
with this and how did you find a connection to say, hey,
(04:34):
we're going to talk about this at launch.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Well, initially I discovered patient tradition or voodoo through Freemason,
because I said I have very often. If it wasn't
for Freemasonry, I would have never become part of the
voodoo tradition. Because we opened my eyes and let me
understand the different world, the different philosophies, and what it
(05:00):
means to be a true mystic. So growing up, I
grew up Lutherorn, I went to church. I had no
involvement in voodoo whatsoever until I became a mason. Probably
seven years into being a mason, I met a brother
(05:22):
and he always saw something and he kept telling me
you got something special? Does your mom? What have you practiced?
I've never seen that, but stories from family members said
way back before I was born, my mother was involved,
but by the time I came around, she was converted
(05:43):
into Christianity. I've never seen any of it. Again. I
owe this discovery my own discovery to freemasonry.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Part of this is interesting to me because it took
being away and going into a new place to find
something that you have a family and traditional connection to.
That's fascinating.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Indeed, something inde because I can't talk about anything go
do before diving first into farmaconry. Because when I came
into formasonry, I had never put in an application. I
just so happened. I got a phone call on a
Wednesday afternoon and it was someone that introduced theirselves. He said,
(06:30):
I'm work for Master so and so from rising some
thirteen in Kansas City, Missouri, and we've had your application
for over five years. And I said, oh you sure?
Are you? Are you sure you're looking for James said, yes, yes,
I've had it. And what happened our lodge building burnt down,
and the wool is if you don't have an actual building,
(06:50):
you cannot make any Masons in Missouri. So they taped
that application for about five years until they rebuilt. Then
he called me. We had a very pleasant talk and
he invited me to come to the lodge the very
evening for a tour. The first thing I did, I
(07:10):
picked up the phone. I called my brother, he's a
Lutheran pastor, and I said, you won't believe this. I
just got a phone call and I'm invited to come
see the Masonic Lodge in Kansas City. He's like, do
not go. Wow, he's more aware. He knows a lot.
He's not initiated in voted, but he knows a lot.
(07:32):
That very evening I got off work. I used to
work in Olatha, Kansas, so I drove from Kansas to
Kansas City, Missouri, where I went straight to the lodge building,
met the words for master. He gave me a tour,
and first he talked to me about for me to sin,
what to expect, what not to expect. And when I
got in there is when he dawned on me fifteen
(07:55):
or so days prior to him calling me a dream
And in that dream, I was being chased by a
bunch of people and I was running, running for my life,
and they led me into a big forest with a
bunch of trees, like very very tall trees, and I
kept running. They're running, you know, after me, and as
(08:17):
I'm going deeper and deeper, I could see what seems
to be a bush, like a blazing burning bush, and
I'm going towards it, so and at that point, the
line of people behind me they split and encircled. Like
we're running, I'm in the middle. Now they're ranting to
(08:38):
encircle me in there. And as I drew closer to
the burning bush, I just saw something that I could
describe as a maybe a very very bright light that
just snapped. And when I recognized myself, I was inside
of a room that I then recognized be very similar,
(09:01):
if not the same, as what the worst fore master
was showing me. When I went to the lodge building,
that Thursday night.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
We could do a whole episode just on that dream.
What do you think that the dream meant or what
do you think it was all about?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
See, that's where the interconnectedness of bo do information may
comes in. It took me years to understand that spirituality.
As you know as a Mason, you know, some of
us come in for the mystical aspect, but yet a
lot of Lodge don't do much of anything mystic and
(09:38):
some of us come in for the fraternity side of it.
But some of us do come because we fill this
connection with something higher than what we are, something we
don't understand, but we say, you know what, I want
to keep going. I want to find out what am I,
What is it that's drawn me into freemas henry or mysticism.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Everything that you're lying out, it totally makes sense. We
talk about it in New York and our ritual and
the first Degree. We say that your acceptance of faith
is going to be challenged by becoming a freemasonry, so
you have that foundation. One must believe in deity, one
must believe in a higher power, one must believe in
the existence of the immortality of a soul. In New
(10:49):
York State. Those are the things you agree to when
you petition to join a lodge. And there's other necessary
requirements that you have to have, and I will let
you as the interests a gentleman who wants to become
a free Mason, figure out if you check all those boxes.
But those are the three things that we've talked about
a lot on this podcast. Is what leads you to
knock on the door of a Masonic plot. It's interesting
(11:10):
to hear that your concerns about voodoo, the tradition, the
culture of it was just what most of us have
about Freemasonry is that we just weren't exposed to it,
so we don't know. It's just the fear of the unknown.
It's not all the negative stuff that's out there. It's
just the things that you're just I just don't know
what it's about. It just never really turned on for me.
(11:30):
It was just never something that I entertained. But I
would like to talk with you about some of the connections.
So let's start first with the belief in deity or
a higher power. Who or what is that in the
Voodoo tradition.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Well, in Voto tradition, the higher power, the deity. It's
very similar in Freemason we say the Grand Architect of
universe and slated into pat Creole we say or the
Grand Master of the Universe. So that's already one big
(12:06):
similarity between the two. Now jump back into the dream
and when I recognized myself in the lodge building, one
key occurring occurrence, sorry, was that I was made to
(12:26):
kneel at the altar element in front of me at
a very very big sword. When I tell you, the
sword was huge, at least i'd say about six seven feet,
hold it up, put it on my left shoulder, my
right shoulder, and in my forehead, and I woke up
from the dream. And ever since then I have been
(12:50):
trying to understand what just happened, now only with the
help offormation. Because I went there that Thursday. I got
initiated early morning Saturday, So just a day after I
visited the lodge is when I got initiated to premasonry.
(13:11):
And I took it very seriously because to me at
that point, it's not something that I was looking for,
and it came to me similar to the path that
I've taken in voodoo. And I later you know, later
on understand it's because a lot of times, I mean,
(13:33):
for the Vooded tradition, you have to be chosen. You
can't just decide, okay, I'm I'm I'm just gonna go
get initiated into the Vooded tradition. That's not the way
it works. You have to be chosen and again to
be chosen, you know, to be a chosen one, you
don't necessarily have to be of Haitian descent. Because I
(13:56):
have met a brother from Colorado past master that was
fascinated by the Haitian tradition, and he went to Haiti
on three separate occasions trying to get initiated, and every
time they turned him down occasion, he never got initiated
until on the fourth time he went to the northern
(14:17):
part of eighty and when he got there, he went
to a temple just to see what was going on.
And he his plan was to talk to somebody and
see if it's possible for them to initiate. And while
he was there, the spirit came up. One of the
spirit we do we have, it's ogu Ogueri. And if
(14:41):
you ever see his regalia whatever in Vodo, he's got
the color. The thirty third degree, the three to three
on there and everything that's aliating voted. And so that
spirit came that night and told the priests I have
chosen and this. He cannot live here without being made
(15:05):
an adoment of the Voodhed tradition. So he got initiated
and I met him in DC. I didn't know him,
and it was during the conference. It was one of
our leadership conferences. And I was clear across the room
and he he spotted me. He just walked up to
me and he asked me one question. He said, where
did you get the cut? And it was kind of
(15:27):
you know, I was taken aback because I'm like, okay,
how this You know, stranger would know to ask me
something like that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Okay. So it's similar to like Masons identifying each other
either by a ring or some sort of symbolism, Like
we can tell except you guys have Yes, we don't
have a spiritual deeper higher.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, it's just the aura. As far as Freemasonry and
VO do, a lot of us can become free Mason,
and it can happen that you find your purpose in
the voted tradition. Your path is already lined up, it's
already laid out in front of you before, because you
(16:07):
can only come if you are called.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
I mean a lot of this is parallel to other religions,
other belief systems, other faiths. So it's not an extreme
jump for me to get this. And it's interesting because
your journey from one to the other started by becoming
a Freemason first. So I'm curious when you hear brothers
who are practicing voodoo and then want to become a Freemason,
(16:35):
what do you feel like freemason does to enrich or
enhance or quote unquote make them a better man? How
does freemasonry help someone who's practicing voter Already.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
We have no philosophy in Vodo, there is no philosophy
at all. Not that is not important because there's a
lot of tradition, there's a lot of history that you
could learn. And I find that freemasonry give you the faculty,
give you the ability if you become a Mason first.
And that's why I said I'm always going to be
thankful to for Masonry, because through freemasonry, I was already
(17:12):
prepared to understand what I would have to undergo as
a priest in agony because the philosophy. Part the it
opened my mind to other Now, I won't say religion
because permission is not a religion, and I don't take
(17:34):
good as a religion. Now a lot of people would
disagree with me, and that's just my personal belief. It's
actually a state religion in Haiti, but we don't have
the dogma. We don't have, you know, some of the
key components that would qualify it as a religion. Nonetheless,
it is a religion, but to me, it's more of
(17:55):
a way of life. It's a way of life because
you have to go back to the origin. Now, Haitian
voter is completely different from the tradition you have in
Africa and West Africa, very different because a lot of
things mutated, a lot of things changed. Before the Africans came.
(18:18):
We already had the native, the Tinos, and they had
their own belief and you have the Spaniards they believed
in Catholics, sus and you have a good amount of
Poles Polish people that were fighting in the Napoleon army
and at some point they switched side and started fighting
(18:41):
with the slaves because they felt like they were not
treated any different. Although they were Polish so they had
their own thing. Because right now in Vodu, we do
have certain traditions, especially the synchronization. Our main spirit, the
female and is actually Polish.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
What's the name of that spirit.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
That's Elserly d'anti. And if you ever go to a
Polish Catholic church, that's their main patron, that's the patron
saint of Poland. There is a reason why some of
the Vudhoo spirits are hidden behind the Catholic saints or pictures,
because back then a slave would not open a practice,
(19:26):
so when they needed to do their thing, they would
just disguise it and hide everything they were doing behind
a Catholic saint a picture, but they were actually addressing
a different energy. I say all this just to get
to the point of when we talk about freemasonry being
freemasonry and Voodo being voted, there is a lot of
(19:49):
things and I'm gonna tell you one quick side story.
I was already a knight templer when I went to
Haiti to become a priest. I was in awe because
everything unless someone is a knights templar, they might have
an idea what I'm talking about. I'm not giving any
secarets out here. But the very thing, the way you
(20:12):
get dressed, the symbolism in there was the it is
the very thing that they do as you are being
prepared to become a Voodu priest. The two traditions share
a lot of coming practices, and that is only due
to the fact that back in the days Freemasonry came
(20:34):
to the island. Back in the seventeen seventeen hundreds or so,
they started having French lodges on the island. Although they
were they didn't have like a Haitian lodge because they
were still under the Grand Organ of French back then,
the Grand Lodge of France. But they did have a
(20:54):
couple lodges and a few prominent Blacks were made members
because there were probably mixed and so if you were
a freed black, you were actually allowed to become a Mason.
So if your dad was a white plantation owner and
(21:15):
you are his son, it was okay for you to
become a Mason. And we have a lot of these
sons of white plantation owners that went on to become Firmason,
and they are the one that started the revolution in hate.
They were the generals and the army the officers, so
they already knew a lot about from Mason. They have
(21:38):
come to teamed up with the maroons, and those are
the hard or slaves that wanted to not be subdued anymore.
They went into the mountains hiding and now they were
practicing good And you have the two that you know
come together.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
We talk about pursuing the Master's word in free masonry
and what is that? And it's a way of validation
saying hey, I'm a Mason because I can prove it
to you this way. It means different things to different people,
but I can see why in this situation, being able
to say I am a free Mason makes a man
feel extremely proud of himself. That's the highest form of validation.
(22:48):
Almost yes.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
And it's the same thing in voted because just as
we have for masonry as a fraternity to where once
you become a Mason, you are a brother, same tradition,
we are a community. Once you become part of that family,
we are one. And to talk about some of the misconceptions,
(23:12):
people think, okay, if there is a dance or if
there's a ceremony and then they killed a cow or
boats or chicken. These are being done as a devil
worshiping or sacrifice. It couldn't be apart from the truth
because they only do that because after they killed an animal,
(23:35):
they do not dig a big hole or put it
on fire or whatever as a sacrifice. It's actually cut up.
They cooked a big portion, and everyone in attendance actually
is able to grab whatever they need go home so
they could eat the next following couple of days. Because
(23:55):
it's a community, we come together as one, because that's
the main principle being a voodoo, not just the priests,
because you could become a conzo. That's how you become
part of the tradition, not having to be a priest,
but you just become a conzo. It only means you
are in perfect harmony with the earth, everything on earth,
(24:21):
the plants, the air, water. The four elements are the
core of what happens in voting, just as we do
have the four elements, because when you become initiated, a
lot of us probably never realize it because I only
know after the fact. When you become a mason, you
(24:44):
go through the initiations through the four elements, same thing
in voted.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
This has been just a fascinating walkthrough, and I really
really appreciate your time. I kind of want to get
you out of here on this question because we end
up talking about rituals so much on this podcast and
it only kind of dawned on me with a guess
we had on a little bit earlier this year where
he was like, you know, quit giving all this firewood
(25:10):
for all the haters out there, because you say the
word ritual and people immediately start thinking, as you're saying,
like sacrificial, something that's unholy, that's not pure, and could
be further from the truth, especially in Freemasonry. But of
course being this secret society or society with secrets, as
we prefer to say it, it doesn't help our case.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
The same thing can be true with voodoo. When you
talk about voodoo ritual, people start thinking of this dark
magic or this scary thing, or you know, resurrecting the
dead or just crazy stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
So, you performed a Haitian ritual ceremony for us, a
cleansing in the lodge, kind of walk us through that
basic ceremony and what was happening, What were you trying
to invoke, what was the purpose of it?
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Who were not actually invoke in any particular spirit. This
there was a ceremony of veneration, because we do believe
in our ancestors. Just like you would see a Jewish person,
you know in Brooklyn, what do they get the chicken
slit the throat for the blood, and then you see
they ask the chicken over the body. So essentially it's
(26:22):
the same thing. However, what I did in the lodge
was you seeing the fire the air, not the earth
was there as well in the water. So it was
indeed a harmonization of the four elements. And again it's
part of the voodoo ceremonies or ritual, and there could
(26:45):
not be a ritual without drumming, singing, and people that
are open, people that are brave enough to want to
be what we call well I translate into English a horse,
which means you are a vessel. You have opened up
(27:05):
yourself to the energy. Now it's it's where a lot
of people get confused because if someone is mounted by
one of the loires, people don't understand because you start
doing things that you normally would do. You know, stuff
that you don't know how you know it. The person
that you're talking to you telling him certain things about
sell their family, what is going on? Those are things
(27:29):
unless you were part of their family or a few generations,
you would know. And again it's because once you have
harmonized the four element, it opens the door for different entities.
Nothing negative, more or less. The spirits the louise because
(27:51):
we have about four hundred and one. There's more, but
we know of four hundred and one, and some of
them are close to human beings and those are the
gid is, the by ones. Those are the ones family
members that have passed and now they are in the
spiritual in the spirit world world. So there they are
(28:14):
able to connect with you and bring messages and sort
of what the Catholic would call you a guardian and right,
and as you see, you know we do have information.
We have two patrons saints, and we do have both
of them in the Haitian tradition as well, and each
one of them represent a different connection to us pretty
(28:37):
much what we know they do informationy. They do the
same thing in the Haitian tradition as well.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I have learned so much in this conversation. I'm hoping
the same is true for our listener. If anything, I
think it helps hearing brothers like you talk helps us
put our guards down and just like accept, understand and
want to learn more. So my last question, Worship is
if there's a listener right now who's like, hey, you
know what, I would like to learn more about this,
(29:06):
but I know there's so much stuff out there that's
it's not good. Where would you recommend someone go to
learn more about Haitian voodoo or the culture or the tradition.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
On a very philosophical and high level, I would recommend
a book called Voodoo One Time Leap, and it's by
doctor Reginald Crossley. He actually lived here in Maryland. He
wrote a book where he explained what Aitian voodoo really is,
(29:39):
what it's not, and what it can be, and it's
so deep. I would definitely recommend again. It's called Voodoo
One Time Leap and the author is doctor Reginald Crossley,
a Haitian born African American.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Thanks again to my guest this week, Worshipful Brother James Frederic.
If you've enjoyed this episode, you want to get that
book or you want to start your seven day free
trial with the Craftsman Online podcast on Patreon. You get
all of those links in the show notes for this episode. Yeah,
just open it up on your browser, your player, whatever
you're watching for episode description. Bang, you'll see it right there.
(30:23):
I'm right, worshipful brother Michael Lars, until our time together
next Monday. But peace and harmony prevail
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.