April 14, 2025 • 39 mins
How did Preston-Webb Ritual become the standard for American Freemasonry? WB Nathan St. Pierre guides us through the origins of this ritual, its key features, and how two Freemasons formed the Work practiced in most American Lodges.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, Concordant Body, a pendant Body,
Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot Com.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey, welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only
Masonic podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge in New York.
I'm your host, right Orswell, Brother Michael Arsa And if
you ever asked the question, hey, how did our Masonic
ritual here in North America come to be what it
is like? Yeah, you can travel from jurisdiction to state
to state, from area to area. There's subtle differences, but
(00:50):
for the most part, if you go visit another lodge,
you can follow along. Thanks to two men, Preston and Webb,
and how that Preston Web ritual became the stand for
American Freemasonry. We turned to our guest this week, happy
to have him back, Worshipful Brother Nathan Saint Pierre.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
As always, we're about to tackle the heart of Freemasonry,
and I know that this is an episode that you
have been looking forward to for least the last year
and a half. You've gotten me excited about it. I
know we've got other brothers who have contributed some content,
so that at least for me, I can play a
little ketchup and maybe get off the kitty stairs of
Masonic education when it comes to our ritual. Let's start
(01:30):
at the very, very very beginning of this. For brothers
or just those with an interest in freemasonry, when they
hear Preston Webb, how many do you think feel that
that is one person?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I think it's most think gets one person. And I
only recently heard about the duo from the eighties rock
duo like Simon and Garfunkel, or like Hall n Oates right,
or I think even fewer people know it's a person.
We say Preston Weber or whatever. So William Preston, he's
(02:04):
a Scottish person born in seventeen forty two. His father
was a was a Greek and Latin scholar, and so
his father was all about making sure that he got
a very good education. Well, he ends up in London
in seventeen sixty because he was working for the King's printer.
So he was a bookbinder and a printer, right, and
(02:24):
so this is where he starts to get access to
all of the great stuff, and he just is like, oh, wow,
look at all. There's this book like so books on
architecture that he's reading, like I think Isaac Moore's Complete
Architecture or something or there was seventeen fifty nine, so
like this is a new book and he's like, ooh,
look at this. And pieces of that end up being
(02:48):
the Orders of Architecture in the five in the second
degree lecture because he like he's just pulling it straight
from textbook, saying like I'm going to teach you what
is the best stuff? Right, So this this goes in
Preston in seventeen seventy two create he he throws a
giant banquet called a Grand Gala of Masonry, and uh,
(03:09):
and I'm I'm desperate to do this again. I want
I want to for I want to say, twenty twenty
seven is like the two hundred and twenty fifth anniversary
of him doing this. I'm like, let's get some dudes
together and do blow for blow what press Preston's Grangela
because what it what essentially he was like, masonry isn't
as great as I think it should be. And but
(03:32):
like it could be. So he so he spends a
ton of his own money and he invites every grand
gobbledygook on the planet and he throws this giant party
and it's hours long. There's singing, there's a there's a
clarinet quartet, there's like our trio rather, there's like all
the toasts and everything. And this is where he first
(03:55):
gives what we know as the historical lectures of the
three degrees. So essentially he's there and he gives remarks
on the three degrees to everybody that's there, and everybody
is so absolutely blown away by this that they start
to go, can we get copies of that? Because at
(04:16):
this time the master would be just giving lectures. Like
so the work was really the catechetical work, and then
the lectures was anything you had to offer for the
benefit of the craft on that.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Topic, quick question, the ritual that would have been performed
there you're kind of teasing a little bit about that.
There would have been the ceremonial, the obligation ritual that
we're familiar with with the floor work and the officers
and chairs, and then when the brother would come back
into the lodge for quote unquote further instruction. This is
when you're saying the Master would get up in the
(04:50):
east and just pontificate either prepared thoughts that he had
or whatever was going through his mind at that moment.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Back then, No, so that the lodge would have been
the what you described. We're gonna do the ceremony. When
the ceremony is done, we're gonna wipe everything off the floor,
and now the tables are brought in and we're gonna
have a feast. We're gonna have a festive board. And
at the festive board, you're going to be the Master's
gonna be going back and forth. He's gonna be asking
people different things. What is a square? Oh okay, well
(05:21):
let's look up like see procliss and euclid Like there's
there's different like footnotes and stuff like the thing it
tells you where to look to get the stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
So it was more interactive, less memorization back then.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, so this is why it was called the communication
was that you're at there and you're communicating the degree
back and forth. The reason why Preston is misunderstood is
because there is no one Prestonian work. He was constantly
writing new stuff. You can't do it in a day,
you can't do it in a week. You might do
all of one degree in a year.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Because I think anyone that's that's that sat through our
degrees as a brother, you can tell the dif like
the first is I call it. The first half is
very structured. There's floor work, there's question answer explanations, this,
that and the other, and then the second half is
more kind of Greek style of education with dramas and
speaking and lecture and more verbose.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Right, my friend, you have you have Thomas Smith Webb
to thank for that.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
So if brothers are trying to figure out, like what
was it like back on those early days, like sure,
I like the picture that you've painted where yeah, we
got together, we did the serious floor work, and then
the master had everybody sit down for dinner. We had
a nice little festive board and he would ask questions
and then we would all share our answers. But there
wasn't really anything quote unquote written down back then.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
No, if it was really good, then you would write
it down. So like Preston was constantly writing and rewriting
and all that sort of stuff because it was like, oh,
we found the good stuff like in other words, they're citing,
they're citing the talmid they're talking about like, oh here's
here's like here's the the etymology of this Hebrew word
that we traced back through like blah blah, blah blah,
and so like in other words, like when they find
the really good stuff, to keep it and so that
(06:59):
would keep keep going, you know, which is why so
many of the catechetical answers have survived up to now,
is because we're like, oh, that's a very good way
of putting that, and that's a nice mnemonic and that
sort of way of going about it.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Well, I dig this because I've always wondered personally, like
if you go through our standard work is what we
call it in New York. I'm sure in other jurisdictions
it's a cipher, it's the monitor. I've heard it given
a bunch of different things. But if you're able to
get a print copy in your jurisdiction and you really
get a chance to examine all of this, you're circling
certain words and you're like, oh, interesting, I wonder what
(07:36):
influenced that. And what I like to hear with what
you're telling me, is that a lot of this was
influenced by what men were actually discussing, learning, or thinking
about in that time. That is still survived through all
of these generations to get filtered down to us idiots
who now have to go ask, you know, Siri or ai,
what does this stuff mean?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yes, but Preston says that like William pressed, that is
in seventeen seventy two, and he does the Grand Gala.
This is where he gives the first like the lapse
of time, the ruthless hand of ignorance, the Blaid waste
and destroyed many valuable monuments of antiquity on which the
so on and so forth, right, that that so many
(08:14):
of us know. And then he says freemasonry itself, notwithstanding,
has still survived. He is saying that it is the
fraternity that exists as a means of perpetuating knowledge, which
is its purpose. That is the thing that we are preserving, Okay,
(08:36):
and so and so he hides that in the lecture
to show that it's it's it's this thing itself that
is that is more important than anything that I would say. Right. So,
later on you're gonna get people like Mackie in the
in the Victorians that are going to rip apart Preston
like and be like, oh, he wasn't a very good lecturer.
He bloviated a lot. His history is so wrong. He
(08:58):
didn't know about like it he made all the time,
and they just sort of like do this nitpicky pick apart.
And what they're missing is that he would have also
said like, thank you for teaching me, and now we
build and go on like that. That idea of masonry
as a thing to be memorized is that's that's Thomas
(09:19):
Smith Webb. And we'll we'll get there in it. We'll
get there in a minute. Right. But if you're interested in,
if you're interested in, like what ritual Preston would have
been initiated into. The Three Distinct Knocks was published in
seventeen sixty and that is the ancient's work, and so
he was initiated into an ancient's lodge. And so you
(09:41):
can look at you like, this is this is what
Preston got, and it's it's pretty A lot of people
will see it as pretty close to what they may
have done. Now. Preston's also I call Preston punk rock
because in the seventeen seventy eight or so he got
(10:02):
kicked out of the Grand Lodge because he was making
people mad because like he was, you know, he was
kind of becoming a what do you call it, a celebrity, right,
and he made people mad. In seventeen seventy four, he
was elected to membership in one of the Big Four,
(10:25):
the four that started the whole thing. In seventeen seventeen,
he was elected to membership. He wasn't even there, and
then the next meeting when he did show up, they
installed him his master that night, and he served the
chair for three and a half years. So he was
becoming sort of bigger than and whatever. So there was
one night when he and his buddy left the lodge room.
(10:47):
They were still wearing their aprons, and they ran across
the street into the place where where they were going
because they saw their aprons on. They were brought up
on Masonic charges for having an unauthorized procession in Masonic
regalia outside of the lodge hall. And so William Preston
that this was like there they thought this was so funny. Okay,
(11:08):
so you're not in the moderns anymore. And then he
was like cool, I don't need you. And then he
started his own grand lodge, like like he went to
the ancient so that they were like, yeah, okay, give
you a thing. So he became the head of the
Grand Lodge of all of England south of the River Trent,
like as only William Preston could name, could name a
(11:29):
grand lodge, and then they chartered four lodges or three
lodges or something like that. So like he basically became
his own brand lodge in his own right.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Hey, it's right worship for brother Michael Ars. Thanks again
for listening to the crass Butan online podcast. I listened
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(12:05):
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(12:28):
You are ad free on Patreon and the Final Thing,
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(12:49):
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Patreon free for the first seven days. And thanks in
advance for supporting the show. Before I jumped in with
(13:17):
that question, we were on the timeline and Preston was, Hey,
you know what I'm done being a modern you don't
want me. I'm going to run over to the ancients
and they're gonna love me.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
And then they did, and then but the moderns were like,
can you come back please? He's like, okay, and then
he did, and then but he's still like in other
words at that point, like he's I don't want to
say tarnished, but like I don't think he was involved
in the ritual talks in eighteen thirteen when they did
the unification, even though he was very much alive, you know.
(13:50):
But he was a big influence on the Lodge of Promulgation,
which was a thing that was created in eighteen oh
nine as like a precursor to the Unification. So there's
a good deal of Preston that's still done in England
as well. Right, So Webb, Thomas Smith Webb is on
(14:16):
the other side of the Atlantic. He's born in seventeen
seventy one in Boston, right, so he's one year old
when Preston's doing his gala, like he's like, they're very
I mean, there are contemporaries, but like it's it's it's
very different in terms of timeline. Right. But he's born
in Boston. He's proficient in Greek, French, and he's a musician.
(14:39):
He's a polymath, right, He's he's outgoings, he's what do
you call it, he's extroverted, Like he's just he's the
life of every party, is this Thomas Smith Web And he,
like Preston, was a bookbinder, and and he was an author,
(15:00):
an editor, and he ran a wallpaper company. But he's
mostly known because he basically created what we know as
the York right and what is everywhere else in the
world known as the American right. So Webb was very
much focused on national ritual unity, so a very different
(15:20):
philosophy to William Preston, who was essentially saying masonry is
about learning as much as a man can Thomas Smith.
Webb was very much like, masonry is a really great system.
Here's that should be set up in this order. In
seventeen ninety six, in Albany, New York, Preston's eighth edition
(15:41):
of Illustrations of Masonry that became available. So that's where
Web got this. The seventeen ninety Copyright Act for the
United States established that anything that was English language could
be published under an American copyright, regardless of whether the
person was in a marria. It was their way of
(16:01):
saying f you to the crown that they had just
gotten away from. So Webb takes Preston, he chops it up,
he reformats it, he takes out all the references to
the monarchy. He tries to make it simple and tries
to make it look like what he knew to be
the way that the lodges were doing it. And then
he prints that as illustrations pardon me, as a Freemason's monitor,
(16:27):
in two parts, and so on and so forth, one
of which was illustrated with masonry. And what's hilarious is
when he sends that to the printer, the printer still
had the plate from the seventeen ninety six Preston, so
he just takes that and uses that, and so there's
included in the seventeen ninety seven Web. There's like a
(16:47):
whole letter to some guy in England that Web's never
heard of, but it's because the printer had it. They
didn't use the So the eighteen oh two second edition
of Web's Monitor is very different. The eighteen oh two
that's the one that basically becomes the basis of all
American ritual to follow.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I have said this, and maybe I have spoken incorrectly,
and so I'd love to get corrected on this, where
I have felt that there's so many variations in our
ritual because it is the longest game of telephone, because
it depended on which English soldier was in what part
of them the colonies of the now United States, And
how did those locals decide they wanted to use those
(17:28):
words or put this together or say this or do
that or have that like local flavor or flair, so
to speak. Is that relatively how it worked out?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
So to answer that question will require another podcast on
the Baltimore convention and the post and what and what
the fraternity tried to do post Morgan affair to save itself.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Deal, let's get him booked for that.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
People of our generation often when we were coming in,
they would say like, oh, is that an f F
and AM or is that an AF and am? And
they would talk as though these things meant anything, right,
And it was in England, yeah, that they might have right,
but essentially once you get to the States, it all
becomes a wash. Because of Thomas Smith Webb. And so
(18:10):
what he was doing was he was selling his his
monitor and then he was also selling the English exposure
Jackin and Boaz, and he was saying, so, this one
is the ciphered portions, and this one is the monitored portions.
Here you go go out and do whatever and so
(18:34):
like you. So what's really interesting about that is that's
the ancient work. So regardless of whether a place had
its charter from an ancient grand Lodge or a moderns
Grand Lodge, they all ended up doing ancients work in America.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Before I interrupted, Preston had his lectures that he was
constantly rewriting with the idea of, hey, let's get everything
in here, let's make it all known to everyone. It
took a different approach you were mentioning. He had his
ritual disciples, the original AGLs that were sent down to
the world.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
That's right, that's exactly, that's right. So he's got a
few and so a few of the big names are
Jeremy Ladd Cross and John snow Right. So Jeremy Ladd
Cross is I'm going to describe these guys for you.
So Jeremy lad Cross has been described as quote an
(19:27):
unlettered man whose quote knowledge even of the English tongue
was extremely limited. Gotcha, his his quote orthography was bad,
his grammar execrable, and quote he knew nothing of the
history of masonry and cared nothing for it. Cross himself
(19:52):
admitted that when you memorize what he is teaching, you
will know as much about masonry as he does.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Okay, so it sounds like a great guy.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yes, and we are so in debt to him ritual
being No, we're so in debt to him for ritual
being as unanimous or being as alike as it is
cross jurisdictions, because he's the one who created in eighteen sixteen,
he created the monitor that had pictures in it. In
(20:27):
other words, he wanted to find a way to make
money off of what Web had done, to make money
off of what Preston had done, and you can't change
the copyright, you know, without changing the book all that much.
So he was like, I know what I'll do. I'll
take wood engravings from all the tracing boards and I'll
add those to Webb's work, and then I can republish
(20:48):
that as the true cross of what do you call it?
The true Monitor and hieroglyphic chart, That's what he called it,
hieroglyphic chart. And now he can make his money off
of the book.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Makes jokes funny, is that there's truth behind every joke.
And I sit here and I think of these people
that talk about the Illuminati, that it's they're all about
trying to like make money in freemasonry. And here's literal
examples of guys trying to make money off of the
craft of freemason.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
No, no, I want to let's let's let's back it up, okay,
because I'm going to tell you something that what of
our our anenter dipprentices said to me, which is really brilliant.
He was asking, as we're doing the catechetical work, and
he would ask a question about why something is that
I would I would answer with a thoughtful answer about
why something is, and he would go, thank you. That's
really nice because I asked somebody else and he didn't know.
(21:35):
He said, I don't know, just memorize it. And then
the AA was like, just memorize it. That's something cults do,
Like that's right. So so the idea, it's that's so
true man. So like so this idea that we've got
like the Disciples of Masonry going out and there's like,
(21:55):
I don't know. I just memorized what what Thomas Webb
taught me and that and that's all I need to know,
right mm hm. So So now I'll talk about John snow, right,
So John's no relation to the TV job, well, well
probably not, but but but so he this is this
is he's referred to as not as pronounced an extrovert
(22:17):
as was Web. Snow did not have the organizing genius
that characterized his friend. His perceptive ability was less acute,
his mind more that of an average mechanic or shopkeeper.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Right, mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
So he and Thomas Smith Web are good friends. So
I I I love this because I have to imagine
that sometime un ironically Thomas Smith Webb must have said,
you know nothing, John Snow, and and that that must
have happened.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Probably right, He's got great salespeople, that's a life and
say obviously they did their job. And that's what we're
all kind of, you know, I don't want to say
stuck acting with practicing today, but we eve embraced it wholeheartedly,
like we were like, yeah, well we'll do it this way,
let's do it.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Come on, guys. Actually, you know what's funny is the
the ones who do it the most pure are the
ones who like who Web didn't want? So I think
so it was. I want to say, John Burley is
his name? My Vermont brothers are gonna are gonna rip
me a part if I don't if I don't get
this right. But but essentially he went to Web because
Web was doing the whole like certify lecturer thing right,
(23:27):
because you know, why not? And uh, he went to
Web and he was like, I want to I got
to learn the work from you. And he's like, no,
I'm not going to teach you. I'll send out snow
or you know, send out one of my minions. He
was like, heck, no, you won't. I'm learning from you.
And and like anyway, threw up a lot of arm pulling
(23:48):
and negotiation. He ends up being like the he learns
the work and then he goes back to Vermont and
uh and teaches it to them, and every other attempt
to change things, all the people in Vermont are just
like Nope, no, thank you mm and they they have
the longest uninterrupted American ritual in terms of, like, if
(24:11):
we were to pull back at that thread to see
when the changes were made, I think I think most
worst of Bob Davis puts them at the the most unimpaired,
so to speak, if we're talking about web, you know,
if we're talking about the web work.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
So I'm left with kind of two questions after everything
that we've talked about in this episode, and I'll start
with the first one. I mean after hearing Preston, who
had these great lectures and just kept writing and writing
and writing and writing, and was like, hey, you know what,
I've got more, let's talk about more. And then you
have Web that's like, oh, these were great, and I'm
going to put this in a book, but I need to,
(24:50):
you know, kind of chop things up here a little
bit and make it fit and boom boom booms. And
then that's how we literally get the Preston and Web ritual.
It's not like they worked together. They did not, And
they corresponded, yeah they didn't know. Yeah, those romantic ideas
of one influencing the other and somebody so not.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
The case here.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
What's stopping modern men today in the craft from saying, hey,
you know what, I would like to write or rewrite
or contribute or tweak our ritual and make it this
way now instead of what we now know.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Permit no innovation in the body of masonry. That's an
old charge. So it really comes down to a philosophy.
What is freemasonry is freemasonry going to a building and
doing a meeting and reading minutes is freemasonry participating in
a degree one time on one night, wearing a ring
on your finger for the rest of your life and
never going back. What is a freemason? Right, So like
(25:49):
if you're if you define it by the the number
of degrees that you collect, you're you're doing homage to
a sort of Thomas Smith web system. But if it's
like this, the perpetual seek of knowledge, that's Prestonian like.
(26:11):
That's so I see them as as what is your
north star like? Rather than because Preston was collecting old charges,
old rituals, old things, So a lot of stuff that
he was writing, he's quoting Charles Leslie from seventeen forty one,
he's quoting other stuff, you know, and he's putting it
(26:32):
in there because he's trying to He's trying to compile
as much of the the old, like back when we
actually believed that we had anti d'luvian knowledge that we
needed to perpetuate, back when we back when we gave
a damn That's what he was trying to bring back
now to steal man Thomas Smith Webb. I don't think
(26:52):
he was completely a Charlatan. I think instead it was wow,
masonry over here is not quite what it could be
I found these really great lectures from England. What if
we did these like I don't ascribe necessarily ill faith
our to our dear brother Web, In fact the opposite.
Like what he did, especially if you're a royal arch mason,
what he did for the York Right in America was unparalleled,
(27:16):
like and the fact that we that it's known elsewhere
as the American Right is such a testament to him
and what he did right. I don't want to diminish
Thomas Smith Web at all, especially given that he had
such a short life.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
And for our listener, it's like, you know, Nathan and
I have had a lot of fun about this particular
topic and in this episode, because ritual can be dry
and history sometimes can be boring, and I've appreciated the
tone that you've taken. And as a proud New York Freemason,
I would never speak poorly of Thomas Webb because I
know the wonderful contributions. I know our Grand Lodge in
New York's We're the One that follows things is close
(27:50):
to what the ritual is supposed to be. And I
know that kind of leads into my second question, where
each Grand jurisdiction makes those claims that we are the
one that's most aligned to this. With that, then you
look at and I was recently at their Unity Day
and the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania, and you see their
ritual and you're like, whoa, this is nothing like I've
(28:10):
seen before in a lodge room.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Right, So the Pennsylvania thing is is is actually is related,
but it's because they have had two provincial Grand Lodges.
So seventeen thirty one, you get the Provincial Grand Lodge
of Pennsylvania through the Moderns, okay, and this is the
lodge into which Benjamin Franklin is initiated and later serves
(28:37):
as Provincial Grand Master. Okay, so this is a provincial
Grand Lodge of Moderns. And then Pennsylvania also gets a
provincial Grand Master for the Ancients in seventeen fifty one. Okay.
They Pennsylvania unify into its independent Grand Lodge in seventeen
(28:58):
eighty six, so they have So Pennsylvania took the moderns
the ancients reunified them together before Web even got Preston's lectures, right, Okay,
So when in the early eighteen hundreds, Web and his
and his people are going to Pennsylvania and they're saying,
(29:20):
we have the ancient working. Pennsylvania is like, no, we
have the ancients working, and then they weren't able to
come together. Now there's conflicting reports. Some say that at
that time in Pennsylvania, they're like, they were really only
(29:41):
referring to the ceremonial portions and there weren't any lectures there.
And then that was what web was trying to establish,
was was a lecture system. But I don't come down
on any either side of that. But the reason why
Pennsylvania doesn't look like anywhere else is because they had
(30:01):
two provincial grand Lodges set up from England that both
unified prior to they're even being in the United States
of America. I have that math, right. I just so.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
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(31:30):
To bring it back to Preston Web, because I know
that you're a scholar, You're an enthusiast, You're a researcher,
like this is your thing or one of many of
your things, but one of your main focuses. Are there
misconceptions about the Preston Web ritual that you'd like to
kind of clear up on this episode or address?
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Sure, So, one misconception is that Web invented these rituals
whole cloth, right, that they came from Web, which you
didn't create them. He synthesized, you know, various different things,
and what we can credit him with is a systematization,
not an invention. Okay. Another misconception is that any I
(32:11):
hate to break it to you, but every single one
of your grand jurisdictions has changed something like So this
idea that the rituals have gone continuously like unimpaired is
very silly. And that's that's the honest answer to the
question about like, why is this so different because someone
(32:32):
changed it. That's the It's like candidates, and that's fine, right.
Another misconception is that Web introduced the all seeing eye,
that this is a later symbol and is not ancient,
and that's that's that's actually not true. So he's credited
with adding things like that because in the eighteen oh
(32:54):
two he adds pieces of those emblematic work, But these
are old symbols that he was adding in as he
became aware of the lectures. Another misconception is that the
monitor contains secret rituals. I wanted to talk about this
because you actually you were talking about it earlier, like
sometimes you get confused it's the sliphers the monitor or whatever.
(33:15):
So these are actually two different books. So remember I
had mentioned earlier that that he was selling he was
selling his book, but then it was like wing wing
nudge's not buy this book, but don't really because I'm
not supposed to let you buy an exposure or whatever.
But right, So the idea was the exposure was what
we would consider the ciphered portions or the esoteric work,
(33:37):
and then the monitor was the exoteric work. And this
is why plaintext portions of your ritual are referred to
as monitorial because it comes from a monitor. So okay,
that's so those are two separate documents.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
So I'll get you out of here on this question, Nathan,
because I know you know this has been I love
when you come on. I learn so much from you,
and I really appreciate you sharing your wealth of knowledge,
especially on Masonic ritual. I feel that I didn't really
start quote unquote bonding with ritual, not when I had
to memorize it to learn it, to be to go
(34:18):
through the degrees, but when I actually got to sit
back as a mastermation that start learning it and really
getting into it. The parts that appeal the most to
me are the lectures that come after the conferral of
the degree. Let's say, sure, is there a part of
the ritual that is memorable or meaningful for you where
you can say, you know what, this is kind of
(34:38):
the best blend of Preston and Web's works and words
and wisdom together that can be found in our ritual.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Yes, so ill, because I'll give you. I'll give you
one from each. Right. So okay, So here's Preston and
it's and it's not from a lecture, and I'll bet
you'll love it. But the blessings of Heaven rest on
us in all regular masons. My brotherly love prevail every
moral and social virtue. Cement us. Amen. That's Preston. Ah.
(35:12):
I'm going to give flowers to Jeremy lad Cross because
I picked on him earlier. But there's something he added that,
or I mean, Web maybe added it, but he didn't
publish it, crossed it. Cross is the one who gives
us charity extends beyond the grave, the boundless realms, eternity.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
It's one of my favorites. And for Web, this one
has has a it's a personal story. So when I
was memorizing the the lectures, sometimes my wife would have
difficulty sleeping at night, and that she'd go tell me
a story.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Well, I can tell you what happened in Lost.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
No, no, no, no, it's better than that. It's even better
than that. So so we'd be laying there and she'd
go tell me a story, and then I would always
start with the part that I knew that was playing Texas.
This famous fabric was situated on not Mariah, near the
place where Abraham was about to offer, and I just started.
I would just start going with a with a monitorial
(36:11):
part of the third degree and the pretty suit you
would and it was, but it was it was always
the same story, no matter what. Like anytime she'd say, like,
tell me a story, it was always this famous fabric situation.
So the funny thing was I always thought that was Preston.
And then when I moved to Florida, Uh, I noticed
it wasn't in the degree. And then I was like,
(36:34):
holy cow, you can't change Preston. You could change lots
of things, but you can't change Preston. I got so
mad that I went looking, and sure enough I couldn't
find it, and pressed found it found in Webb and uh.
And but what was interesting is it was part of
Webb's roy Larch because they used because again like it's
was that this used to be part of the same thing,
(36:56):
so so pieces would like would come out. So so anyways,
so there's I got to give a flower to Thomas
Smith Webb that one of the you know, pieces of
ritual that is deeply ingrained in my brain and unfortunately
my wife's as well, because it's matty sleepless nights. I
(37:19):
secretly like to think she got insomnia so that way
she could listen to my lectures of the time.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Mmm, that's it. Yes, well no, and I hope for
the brother listening, you're carrying that passion, you're enjoying, you know,
getting into the ritual and reading it, and you know
you're finding you're being moved by these words. I know
the first time I work with a brother and we
hit that certain Shakespeare line in our catechism and they're like, oh,
that sounds familiar. That came from I'm like, yeah, that
(37:45):
came from that, dude.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
How did it end up.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
In our Masonic ritual. That's a really good question. Let's
find that one out together. I don't know myself, but
you know, to hear how these works were kind of
incorporated and have survived through all these changes and through
all these generations and are still being passed down. And
the words I think most importantly, whether it's to help
our wife fall asleep at night or just something we
repeat to ourselves, the value of that is still kind
(38:10):
of what the promise is of all of the structure
of freemasonry and the craft that we know and love.
So I appreciate you shining a lot of light on.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
That the hermetic art of memory as a practice that
they believed, and this is very masonic that what you
memorize literally becomes a part of you because it's now
inside of you. Like so it's so you want to memorize.
So the whole idea of we memorize these important things
to improve our character, prove our virtue, and improve ourselves
(38:42):
is is the memory work is the work. This is
why the rituals referred to as the work, because by
learning these things that actually physically becomes a part of you.
So that way, when you're out and about in the world,
you are able to stand as a just an upright
man and mason and to all outward appearances be such
(39:03):
thank you as always right worshipful sir.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Thanks again to my guest this week, worship of Brother
Nathan Saint Pierre. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure
you follow us on Spotify or subscribe on Apple Podcasts
or however and wherever you listen to our podcast. That
way you get the latest episode every Monday morning. Also
a quick reminder, you could skip all the commercials, get
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(39:28):
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get your seven day free trial is in the notes
for this episode. I'm right, worshipful Brother Michael Arsa. I
always enjoy our time together. Man, this is the best
way to start the week, and I hope you have
an amazing one Until next time. But peace and harmony prevail.
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
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Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey, welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only
Masonic podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge in New York.
I'm your host, right Orswell, Brother Michael Arsa And if
you ever asked the question, hey, how did our Masonic
ritual here in North America come to be what it
is like? Yeah, you can travel from jurisdiction to state
to state, from area to area. There's subtle differences, but
(00:50):
for the most part, if you go visit another lodge,
you can follow along. Thanks to two men, Preston and Webb,
and how that Preston Web ritual became the stand for
American Freemasonry. We turned to our guest this week, happy
to have him back, Worshipful Brother Nathan Saint Pierre.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
As always, we're about to tackle the heart of Freemasonry,
and I know that this is an episode that you
have been looking forward to for least the last year
and a half. You've gotten me excited about it. I
know we've got other brothers who have contributed some content,
so that at least for me, I can play a
little ketchup and maybe get off the kitty stairs of
Masonic education when it comes to our ritual. Let's start
(01:30):
at the very, very very beginning of this. For brothers
or just those with an interest in freemasonry, when they
hear Preston Webb, how many do you think feel that
that is one person?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I think it's most think gets one person. And I
only recently heard about the duo from the eighties rock
duo like Simon and Garfunkel, or like Hall n Oates right,
or I think even fewer people know it's a person.
We say Preston Weber or whatever. So William Preston, he's
(02:04):
a Scottish person born in seventeen forty two. His father
was a was a Greek and Latin scholar, and so
his father was all about making sure that he got
a very good education. Well, he ends up in London
in seventeen sixty because he was working for the King's printer.
So he was a bookbinder and a printer, right, and
(02:24):
so this is where he starts to get access to
all of the great stuff, and he just is like, oh, wow,
look at all. There's this book like so books on
architecture that he's reading, like I think Isaac Moore's Complete
Architecture or something or there was seventeen fifty nine, so
like this is a new book and he's like, ooh,
look at this. And pieces of that end up being
(02:48):
the Orders of Architecture in the five in the second
degree lecture because he like he's just pulling it straight
from textbook, saying like I'm going to teach you what
is the best stuff? Right, So this this goes in
Preston in seventeen seventy two create he he throws a
giant banquet called a Grand Gala of Masonry, and uh,
(03:09):
and I'm I'm desperate to do this again. I want
I want to for I want to say, twenty twenty
seven is like the two hundred and twenty fifth anniversary
of him doing this. I'm like, let's get some dudes
together and do blow for blow what press Preston's Grangela
because what it what essentially he was like, masonry isn't
as great as I think it should be. And but
(03:32):
like it could be. So he so he spends a
ton of his own money and he invites every grand
gobbledygook on the planet and he throws this giant party
and it's hours long. There's singing, there's a there's a
clarinet quartet, there's like our trio rather, there's like all
the toasts and everything. And this is where he first
(03:55):
gives what we know as the historical lectures of the
three degrees. So essentially he's there and he gives remarks
on the three degrees to everybody that's there, and everybody
is so absolutely blown away by this that they start
to go, can we get copies of that? Because at
(04:16):
this time the master would be just giving lectures. Like
so the work was really the catechetical work, and then
the lectures was anything you had to offer for the
benefit of the craft on that.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Topic, quick question, the ritual that would have been performed
there you're kind of teasing a little bit about that.
There would have been the ceremonial, the obligation ritual that
we're familiar with with the floor work and the officers
and chairs, and then when the brother would come back
into the lodge for quote unquote further instruction. This is
when you're saying the Master would get up in the
(04:50):
east and just pontificate either prepared thoughts that he had
or whatever was going through his mind at that moment.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Back then, No, so that the lodge would have been
the what you described. We're gonna do the ceremony. When
the ceremony is done, we're gonna wipe everything off the floor,
and now the tables are brought in and we're gonna
have a feast. We're gonna have a festive board. And
at the festive board, you're going to be the Master's
gonna be going back and forth. He's gonna be asking
people different things. What is a square? Oh okay, well
(05:21):
let's look up like see procliss and euclid Like there's
there's different like footnotes and stuff like the thing it
tells you where to look to get the stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
So it was more interactive, less memorization back then.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, so this is why it was called the communication
was that you're at there and you're communicating the degree
back and forth. The reason why Preston is misunderstood is
because there is no one Prestonian work. He was constantly
writing new stuff. You can't do it in a day,
you can't do it in a week. You might do
all of one degree in a year.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Because I think anyone that's that's that sat through our
degrees as a brother, you can tell the dif like
the first is I call it. The first half is
very structured. There's floor work, there's question answer explanations, this,
that and the other, and then the second half is
more kind of Greek style of education with dramas and
speaking and lecture and more verbose.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Right, my friend, you have you have Thomas Smith Webb
to thank for that.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
So if brothers are trying to figure out, like what
was it like back on those early days, like sure,
I like the picture that you've painted where yeah, we
got together, we did the serious floor work, and then
the master had everybody sit down for dinner. We had
a nice little festive board and he would ask questions
and then we would all share our answers. But there
wasn't really anything quote unquote written down back then.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
No, if it was really good, then you would write
it down. So like Preston was constantly writing and rewriting
and all that sort of stuff because it was like, oh,
we found the good stuff like in other words, they're citing,
they're citing the talmid they're talking about like, oh here's
here's like here's the the etymology of this Hebrew word
that we traced back through like blah blah, blah blah,
and so like in other words, like when they find
the really good stuff, to keep it and so that
(06:59):
would keep keep going, you know, which is why so
many of the catechetical answers have survived up to now,
is because we're like, oh, that's a very good way
of putting that, and that's a nice mnemonic and that
sort of way of going about it.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Well, I dig this because I've always wondered personally, like
if you go through our standard work is what we
call it in New York. I'm sure in other jurisdictions
it's a cipher, it's the monitor. I've heard it given
a bunch of different things. But if you're able to
get a print copy in your jurisdiction and you really
get a chance to examine all of this, you're circling
certain words and you're like, oh, interesting, I wonder what
(07:36):
influenced that. And what I like to hear with what
you're telling me, is that a lot of this was
influenced by what men were actually discussing, learning, or thinking
about in that time. That is still survived through all
of these generations to get filtered down to us idiots
who now have to go ask, you know, Siri or ai,
what does this stuff mean?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yes, but Preston says that like William pressed, that is
in seventeen seventy two, and he does the Grand Gala.
This is where he gives the first like the lapse
of time, the ruthless hand of ignorance, the Blaid waste
and destroyed many valuable monuments of antiquity on which the
so on and so forth, right, that that so many
(08:14):
of us know. And then he says freemasonry itself, notwithstanding,
has still survived. He is saying that it is the
fraternity that exists as a means of perpetuating knowledge, which
is its purpose. That is the thing that we are preserving, Okay,
(08:36):
and so and so he hides that in the lecture
to show that it's it's it's this thing itself that
is that is more important than anything that I would say. Right. So,
later on you're gonna get people like Mackie in the
in the Victorians that are going to rip apart Preston
like and be like, oh, he wasn't a very good lecturer.
He bloviated a lot. His history is so wrong. He
(08:58):
didn't know about like it he made all the time,
and they just sort of like do this nitpicky pick apart.
And what they're missing is that he would have also
said like, thank you for teaching me, and now we
build and go on like that. That idea of masonry
as a thing to be memorized is that's that's Thomas
(09:19):
Smith Webb. And we'll we'll get there in it. We'll
get there in a minute. Right. But if you're interested in,
if you're interested in, like what ritual Preston would have
been initiated into. The Three Distinct Knocks was published in
seventeen sixty and that is the ancient's work, and so
he was initiated into an ancient's lodge. And so you
(09:41):
can look at you like, this is this is what
Preston got, and it's it's pretty A lot of people
will see it as pretty close to what they may
have done. Now. Preston's also I call Preston punk rock
because in the seventeen seventy eight or so he got
(10:02):
kicked out of the Grand Lodge because he was making
people mad because like he was, you know, he was
kind of becoming a what do you call it, a celebrity, right,
and he made people mad. In seventeen seventy four, he
was elected to membership in one of the Big Four,
(10:25):
the four that started the whole thing. In seventeen seventeen,
he was elected to membership. He wasn't even there, and
then the next meeting when he did show up, they
installed him his master that night, and he served the
chair for three and a half years. So he was
becoming sort of bigger than and whatever. So there was
one night when he and his buddy left the lodge room.
(10:47):
They were still wearing their aprons, and they ran across
the street into the place where where they were going
because they saw their aprons on. They were brought up
on Masonic charges for having an unauthorized procession in Masonic
regalia outside of the lodge hall. And so William Preston
that this was like there they thought this was so funny. Okay,
(11:08):
so you're not in the moderns anymore. And then he
was like cool, I don't need you. And then he
started his own grand lodge, like like he went to
the ancient so that they were like, yeah, okay, give
you a thing. So he became the head of the
Grand Lodge of all of England south of the River Trent,
like as only William Preston could name, could name a
(11:29):
grand lodge, and then they chartered four lodges or three
lodges or something like that. So like he basically became
his own brand lodge in his own right.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Hey, it's right worship for brother Michael Ars. Thanks again
for listening to the crass Butan online podcast. I listened
to a lot of podcasts and I always hear them
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Every year our show gets big and better because we're
able to invest in better software for production, better equipment,
(12:05):
and we were able to start running ads on social
media to get bigger guests on the show. And that
all comes not out of my pocket, but thanks to
our Patreon subscribers. One hundred percent of our revenue goes
right back in to The Craftsman Online Podcast Number two.
Why you should join us on Patreon if you're like me,
I freaking hate commercials. I find myself having to skip
through them so much. On the other podcasts I listen to.
(12:28):
You are ad free on Patreon and the Final Thing,
And this is a bonus for you. You get access
to some of our extra content. We get extra time
with some of our top guests, like Brother Chris Rouley
if you like Masonic history, our friend Angel Mallar, editor
from The Paternal Review, drops in and gives us updates
on the latest publication that's coming out, and of course
the all time favorite Brother John Nagy who doesn't want
(12:49):
extra time with Brother John again. You can pop open
your player you'll see the link to join us on
Patreon free for the first seven days. And thanks in
advance for supporting the show. Before I jumped in with
(13:17):
that question, we were on the timeline and Preston was, Hey,
you know what I'm done being a modern you don't
want me. I'm going to run over to the ancients
and they're gonna love me.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
And then they did, and then but the moderns were like,
can you come back please? He's like, okay, and then
he did, and then but he's still like in other
words at that point, like he's I don't want to
say tarnished, but like I don't think he was involved
in the ritual talks in eighteen thirteen when they did
the unification, even though he was very much alive, you know.
(13:50):
But he was a big influence on the Lodge of Promulgation,
which was a thing that was created in eighteen oh
nine as like a precursor to the Unification. So there's
a good deal of Preston that's still done in England
as well. Right, So Webb, Thomas Smith Webb is on
(14:16):
the other side of the Atlantic. He's born in seventeen
seventy one in Boston, right, so he's one year old
when Preston's doing his gala, like he's like, they're very
I mean, there are contemporaries, but like it's it's it's
very different in terms of timeline. Right. But he's born
in Boston. He's proficient in Greek, French, and he's a musician.
(14:39):
He's a polymath, right, He's he's outgoings, he's what do
you call it, he's extroverted, Like he's just he's the
life of every party, is this Thomas Smith Web And he,
like Preston, was a bookbinder, and and he was an author,
(15:00):
an editor, and he ran a wallpaper company. But he's
mostly known because he basically created what we know as
the York right and what is everywhere else in the
world known as the American right. So Webb was very
much focused on national ritual unity, so a very different
(15:20):
philosophy to William Preston, who was essentially saying masonry is
about learning as much as a man can Thomas Smith.
Webb was very much like, masonry is a really great system.
Here's that should be set up in this order. In
seventeen ninety six, in Albany, New York, Preston's eighth edition
(15:41):
of Illustrations of Masonry that became available. So that's where
Web got this. The seventeen ninety Copyright Act for the
United States established that anything that was English language could
be published under an American copyright, regardless of whether the
person was in a marria. It was their way of
(16:01):
saying f you to the crown that they had just
gotten away from. So Webb takes Preston, he chops it up,
he reformats it, he takes out all the references to
the monarchy. He tries to make it simple and tries
to make it look like what he knew to be
the way that the lodges were doing it. And then
he prints that as illustrations pardon me, as a Freemason's monitor,
(16:27):
in two parts, and so on and so forth, one
of which was illustrated with masonry. And what's hilarious is
when he sends that to the printer, the printer still
had the plate from the seventeen ninety six Preston, so
he just takes that and uses that, and so there's
included in the seventeen ninety seven Web. There's like a
(16:47):
whole letter to some guy in England that Web's never
heard of, but it's because the printer had it. They
didn't use the So the eighteen oh two second edition
of Web's Monitor is very different. The eighteen oh two
that's the one that basically becomes the basis of all
American ritual to follow.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I have said this, and maybe I have spoken incorrectly,
and so I'd love to get corrected on this, where
I have felt that there's so many variations in our
ritual because it is the longest game of telephone, because
it depended on which English soldier was in what part
of them the colonies of the now United States, And
how did those locals decide they wanted to use those
(17:28):
words or put this together or say this or do
that or have that like local flavor or flair, so
to speak. Is that relatively how it worked out?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
So to answer that question will require another podcast on
the Baltimore convention and the post and what and what
the fraternity tried to do post Morgan affair to save itself.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Deal, let's get him booked for that.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
People of our generation often when we were coming in,
they would say like, oh, is that an f F
and AM or is that an AF and am? And
they would talk as though these things meant anything, right,
And it was in England, yeah, that they might have right,
but essentially once you get to the States, it all
becomes a wash. Because of Thomas Smith Webb. And so
(18:10):
what he was doing was he was selling his his
monitor and then he was also selling the English exposure
Jackin and Boaz, and he was saying, so, this one
is the ciphered portions, and this one is the monitored portions.
Here you go go out and do whatever and so
(18:34):
like you. So what's really interesting about that is that's
the ancient work. So regardless of whether a place had
its charter from an ancient grand Lodge or a moderns
Grand Lodge, they all ended up doing ancients work in America.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Before I interrupted, Preston had his lectures that he was
constantly rewriting with the idea of, hey, let's get everything
in here, let's make it all known to everyone. It
took a different approach you were mentioning. He had his
ritual disciples, the original AGLs that were sent down to
the world.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
That's right, that's exactly, that's right. So he's got a
few and so a few of the big names are
Jeremy Ladd Cross and John snow Right. So Jeremy Ladd
Cross is I'm going to describe these guys for you.
So Jeremy lad Cross has been described as quote an
(19:27):
unlettered man whose quote knowledge even of the English tongue
was extremely limited. Gotcha, his his quote orthography was bad,
his grammar execrable, and quote he knew nothing of the
history of masonry and cared nothing for it. Cross himself
(19:52):
admitted that when you memorize what he is teaching, you
will know as much about masonry as he does.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Okay, so it sounds like a great guy.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yes, and we are so in debt to him ritual
being No, we're so in debt to him for ritual
being as unanimous or being as alike as it is
cross jurisdictions, because he's the one who created in eighteen sixteen,
he created the monitor that had pictures in it. In
(20:27):
other words, he wanted to find a way to make
money off of what Web had done, to make money
off of what Preston had done, and you can't change
the copyright, you know, without changing the book all that much.
So he was like, I know what I'll do. I'll
take wood engravings from all the tracing boards and I'll
add those to Webb's work, and then I can republish
(20:48):
that as the true cross of what do you call it?
The true Monitor and hieroglyphic chart, That's what he called it,
hieroglyphic chart. And now he can make his money off
of the book.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Makes jokes funny, is that there's truth behind every joke.
And I sit here and I think of these people
that talk about the Illuminati, that it's they're all about
trying to like make money in freemasonry. And here's literal
examples of guys trying to make money off of the
craft of freemason.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
No, no, I want to let's let's let's back it up, okay,
because I'm going to tell you something that what of
our our anenter dipprentices said to me, which is really brilliant.
He was asking, as we're doing the catechetical work, and
he would ask a question about why something is that
I would I would answer with a thoughtful answer about
why something is, and he would go, thank you. That's
really nice because I asked somebody else and he didn't know.
(21:35):
He said, I don't know, just memorize it. And then
the AA was like, just memorize it. That's something cults do,
Like that's right. So so the idea, it's that's so
true man. So like so this idea that we've got
like the Disciples of Masonry going out and there's like,
(21:55):
I don't know. I just memorized what what Thomas Webb
taught me and that and that's all I need to know,
right mm hm. So So now I'll talk about John snow, right,
So John's no relation to the TV job, well, well
probably not, but but but so he this is this
is he's referred to as not as pronounced an extrovert
(22:17):
as was Web. Snow did not have the organizing genius
that characterized his friend. His perceptive ability was less acute,
his mind more that of an average mechanic or shopkeeper.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Right, mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
So he and Thomas Smith Web are good friends. So
I I I love this because I have to imagine
that sometime un ironically Thomas Smith Webb must have said,
you know nothing, John Snow, and and that that must
have happened.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Probably right, He's got great salespeople, that's a life and
say obviously they did their job. And that's what we're
all kind of, you know, I don't want to say
stuck acting with practicing today, but we eve embraced it wholeheartedly,
like we were like, yeah, well we'll do it this way,
let's do it.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Come on, guys. Actually, you know what's funny is the
the ones who do it the most pure are the
ones who like who Web didn't want? So I think
so it was. I want to say, John Burley is
his name? My Vermont brothers are gonna are gonna rip
me a part if I don't if I don't get
this right. But but essentially he went to Web because
Web was doing the whole like certify lecturer thing right,
(23:27):
because you know, why not? And uh, he went to
Web and he was like, I want to I got
to learn the work from you. And he's like, no,
I'm not going to teach you. I'll send out snow
or you know, send out one of my minions. He
was like, heck, no, you won't. I'm learning from you.
And and like anyway, threw up a lot of arm pulling
(23:48):
and negotiation. He ends up being like the he learns
the work and then he goes back to Vermont and
uh and teaches it to them, and every other attempt
to change things, all the people in Vermont are just
like Nope, no, thank you mm and they they have
the longest uninterrupted American ritual in terms of, like, if
(24:11):
we were to pull back at that thread to see
when the changes were made, I think I think most
worst of Bob Davis puts them at the the most unimpaired,
so to speak, if we're talking about web, you know,
if we're talking about the web work.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
So I'm left with kind of two questions after everything
that we've talked about in this episode, and I'll start
with the first one. I mean after hearing Preston, who
had these great lectures and just kept writing and writing
and writing and writing, and was like, hey, you know what,
I've got more, let's talk about more. And then you
have Web that's like, oh, these were great, and I'm
going to put this in a book, but I need to,
(24:50):
you know, kind of chop things up here a little
bit and make it fit and boom boom booms. And
then that's how we literally get the Preston and Web ritual.
It's not like they worked together. They did not, And
they corresponded, yeah they didn't know. Yeah, those romantic ideas
of one influencing the other and somebody so not.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
The case here.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
What's stopping modern men today in the craft from saying, hey,
you know what, I would like to write or rewrite
or contribute or tweak our ritual and make it this
way now instead of what we now know.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Permit no innovation in the body of masonry. That's an
old charge. So it really comes down to a philosophy.
What is freemasonry is freemasonry going to a building and
doing a meeting and reading minutes is freemasonry participating in
a degree one time on one night, wearing a ring
on your finger for the rest of your life and
never going back. What is a freemason? Right, So like
(25:49):
if you're if you define it by the the number
of degrees that you collect, you're you're doing homage to
a sort of Thomas Smith web system. But if it's
like this, the perpetual seek of knowledge, that's Prestonian like.
(26:11):
That's so I see them as as what is your
north star like? Rather than because Preston was collecting old charges,
old rituals, old things, So a lot of stuff that
he was writing, he's quoting Charles Leslie from seventeen forty one,
he's quoting other stuff, you know, and he's putting it
(26:32):
in there because he's trying to He's trying to compile
as much of the the old, like back when we
actually believed that we had anti d'luvian knowledge that we
needed to perpetuate, back when we back when we gave
a damn That's what he was trying to bring back
now to steal man Thomas Smith Webb. I don't think
(26:52):
he was completely a Charlatan. I think instead it was wow,
masonry over here is not quite what it could be
I found these really great lectures from England. What if
we did these like I don't ascribe necessarily ill faith
our to our dear brother Web, In fact the opposite.
Like what he did, especially if you're a royal arch mason,
what he did for the York Right in America was unparalleled,
(27:16):
like and the fact that we that it's known elsewhere
as the American Right is such a testament to him
and what he did right. I don't want to diminish
Thomas Smith Web at all, especially given that he had
such a short life.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
And for our listener, it's like, you know, Nathan and
I have had a lot of fun about this particular
topic and in this episode, because ritual can be dry
and history sometimes can be boring, and I've appreciated the
tone that you've taken. And as a proud New York Freemason,
I would never speak poorly of Thomas Webb because I
know the wonderful contributions. I know our Grand Lodge in
New York's We're the One that follows things is close
(27:50):
to what the ritual is supposed to be. And I
know that kind of leads into my second question, where
each Grand jurisdiction makes those claims that we are the
one that's most aligned to this. With that, then you
look at and I was recently at their Unity Day
and the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania, and you see their
ritual and you're like, whoa, this is nothing like I've
(28:10):
seen before in a lodge room.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Right, So the Pennsylvania thing is is is actually is related,
but it's because they have had two provincial Grand Lodges.
So seventeen thirty one, you get the Provincial Grand Lodge
of Pennsylvania through the Moderns, okay, and this is the
lodge into which Benjamin Franklin is initiated and later serves
(28:37):
as Provincial Grand Master. Okay, so this is a provincial
Grand Lodge of Moderns. And then Pennsylvania also gets a
provincial Grand Master for the Ancients in seventeen fifty one. Okay.
They Pennsylvania unify into its independent Grand Lodge in seventeen
(28:58):
eighty six, so they have So Pennsylvania took the moderns
the ancients reunified them together before Web even got Preston's lectures, right, Okay,
So when in the early eighteen hundreds, Web and his
and his people are going to Pennsylvania and they're saying,
(29:20):
we have the ancient working. Pennsylvania is like, no, we
have the ancients working, and then they weren't able to
come together. Now there's conflicting reports. Some say that at
that time in Pennsylvania, they're like, they were really only
(29:41):
referring to the ceremonial portions and there weren't any lectures there.
And then that was what web was trying to establish,
was was a lecture system. But I don't come down
on any either side of that. But the reason why
Pennsylvania doesn't look like anywhere else is because they had
(30:01):
two provincial grand Lodges set up from England that both
unified prior to they're even being in the United States
of America. I have that math, right. I just so.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
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(31:08):
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(31:30):
To bring it back to Preston Web, because I know
that you're a scholar, You're an enthusiast, You're a researcher,
like this is your thing or one of many of
your things, but one of your main focuses. Are there
misconceptions about the Preston Web ritual that you'd like to
kind of clear up on this episode or address?
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Sure, So, one misconception is that Web invented these rituals
whole cloth, right, that they came from Web, which you
didn't create them. He synthesized, you know, various different things,
and what we can credit him with is a systematization,
not an invention. Okay. Another misconception is that any I
(32:11):
hate to break it to you, but every single one
of your grand jurisdictions has changed something like So this
idea that the rituals have gone continuously like unimpaired is
very silly. And that's that's the honest answer to the
question about like, why is this so different because someone
(32:32):
changed it. That's the It's like candidates, and that's fine, right.
Another misconception is that Web introduced the all seeing eye,
that this is a later symbol and is not ancient,
and that's that's that's actually not true. So he's credited
with adding things like that because in the eighteen oh
(32:54):
two he adds pieces of those emblematic work, But these
are old symbols that he was adding in as he
became aware of the lectures. Another misconception is that the
monitor contains secret rituals. I wanted to talk about this
because you actually you were talking about it earlier, like
sometimes you get confused it's the sliphers the monitor or whatever.
(33:15):
So these are actually two different books. So remember I
had mentioned earlier that that he was selling he was
selling his book, but then it was like wing wing
nudge's not buy this book, but don't really because I'm
not supposed to let you buy an exposure or whatever.
But right, So the idea was the exposure was what
we would consider the ciphered portions or the esoteric work,
(33:37):
and then the monitor was the exoteric work. And this
is why plaintext portions of your ritual are referred to
as monitorial because it comes from a monitor. So okay,
that's so those are two separate documents.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
So I'll get you out of here on this question, Nathan,
because I know you know this has been I love
when you come on. I learn so much from you,
and I really appreciate you sharing your wealth of knowledge,
especially on Masonic ritual. I feel that I didn't really
start quote unquote bonding with ritual, not when I had
to memorize it to learn it, to be to go
(34:18):
through the degrees, but when I actually got to sit
back as a mastermation that start learning it and really
getting into it. The parts that appeal the most to
me are the lectures that come after the conferral of
the degree. Let's say, sure, is there a part of
the ritual that is memorable or meaningful for you where
you can say, you know what, this is kind of
(34:38):
the best blend of Preston and Web's works and words
and wisdom together that can be found in our ritual.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Yes, so ill, because I'll give you. I'll give you
one from each. Right. So okay, So here's Preston and
it's and it's not from a lecture, and I'll bet
you'll love it. But the blessings of Heaven rest on
us in all regular masons. My brotherly love prevail every
moral and social virtue. Cement us. Amen. That's Preston. Ah.
(35:12):
I'm going to give flowers to Jeremy lad Cross because
I picked on him earlier. But there's something he added that,
or I mean, Web maybe added it, but he didn't
publish it, crossed it. Cross is the one who gives
us charity extends beyond the grave, the boundless realms, eternity.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
It's one of my favorites. And for Web, this one
has has a it's a personal story. So when I
was memorizing the the lectures, sometimes my wife would have
difficulty sleeping at night, and that she'd go tell me
a story.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Well, I can tell you what happened in Lost.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
No, no, no, no, it's better than that. It's even better
than that. So so we'd be laying there and she'd
go tell me a story, and then I would always
start with the part that I knew that was playing Texas.
This famous fabric was situated on not Mariah, near the
place where Abraham was about to offer, and I just started.
I would just start going with a with a monitorial
(36:11):
part of the third degree and the pretty suit you
would and it was, but it was it was always
the same story, no matter what. Like anytime she'd say, like,
tell me a story, it was always this famous fabric situation.
So the funny thing was I always thought that was Preston.
And then when I moved to Florida, Uh, I noticed
it wasn't in the degree. And then I was like,
(36:34):
holy cow, you can't change Preston. You could change lots
of things, but you can't change Preston. I got so
mad that I went looking, and sure enough I couldn't
find it, and pressed found it found in Webb and uh.
And but what was interesting is it was part of
Webb's roy Larch because they used because again like it's
was that this used to be part of the same thing,
(36:56):
so so pieces would like would come out. So so anyways,
so there's I got to give a flower to Thomas
Smith Webb that one of the you know, pieces of
ritual that is deeply ingrained in my brain and unfortunately
my wife's as well, because it's matty sleepless nights. I
(37:19):
secretly like to think she got insomnia so that way
she could listen to my lectures of the time.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Mmm, that's it. Yes, well no, and I hope for
the brother listening, you're carrying that passion, you're enjoying, you know,
getting into the ritual and reading it, and you know
you're finding you're being moved by these words. I know
the first time I work with a brother and we
hit that certain Shakespeare line in our catechism and they're like, oh,
that sounds familiar. That came from I'm like, yeah, that
(37:45):
came from that, dude.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
How did it end up.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
In our Masonic ritual. That's a really good question. Let's
find that one out together. I don't know myself, but
you know, to hear how these works were kind of
incorporated and have survived through all these changes and through
all these generations and are still being passed down. And
the words I think most importantly, whether it's to help
our wife fall asleep at night or just something we
repeat to ourselves, the value of that is still kind
(38:10):
of what the promise is of all of the structure
of freemasonry and the craft that we know and love.
So I appreciate you shining a lot of light on.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
That the hermetic art of memory as a practice that
they believed, and this is very masonic that what you
memorize literally becomes a part of you because it's now
inside of you. Like so it's so you want to memorize.
So the whole idea of we memorize these important things
to improve our character, prove our virtue, and improve ourselves
(38:42):
is is the memory work is the work. This is
why the rituals referred to as the work, because by
learning these things that actually physically becomes a part of you.
So that way, when you're out and about in the world,
you are able to stand as a just an upright
man and mason and to all outward appearances be such
(39:03):
thank you as always right worshipful sir.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Thanks again to my guest this week, worship of Brother
Nathan Saint Pierre. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure
you follow us on Spotify or subscribe on Apple Podcasts
or however and wherever you listen to our podcast. That
way you get the latest episode every Monday morning. Also
a quick reminder, you could skip all the commercials, get
some bonus content, and most importantly help the podcast. Support
(39:28):
the show by visiting us on Patreon. The link to
get your seven day free trial is in the notes
for this episode. I'm right, worshipful Brother Michael Arsa. I
always enjoy our time together. Man, this is the best
way to start the week, and I hope you have
an amazing one Until next time. But peace and harmony prevail.
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