August 4, 2025 • 32 mins
Are you on a quest for a little more joy, a dash more contentment, and maybe even a whole lot more well-being in your life? Well, you're in the right place. WB Ted Cross is our guest this week. He shares his insight on the fascinating science of happiness while also addressing the age old myths on what makes us happy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, Concordant Body, a pendant Body,
Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only Masonic
podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York. I'm
your host, right worshe for Brother Michael Arsay. I can't
believe we are into the month of August. Wow, where
is this summer and this year going?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
These days?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
You hear the term I'm searching for my happy, I'm
searching for my joy, and that's all good, But would
you understand that there's a science behind happiness and a
meaning to life. Yeah, if you're looking for more than
just a dash of contentment or a little bit more
than just well being in your life, this is the
episode just for you. As I feel like I'm getting
(01:07):
a little flashback of deja vu here as we welcome
in this week's guest, Worshipful Brother Ted Cross. Welcome to
the Craftsman Online Podcast.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Thanks for having me excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It's not that you and Nathan look the same and
you don't sound the same either, but on my screen
and for those watching on YouTube live they can see
the streaming feed your background very similar. And then when
we started talking about Arizona, I was like, wait a second,
didn't I just talk to you? So you do work
with Nathan? There is a connection here.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Yeah, Nathan works at Arizona State University and I work
at Arizona State University as well. I lead character education
across the university, and I'm a professor of practice and
the College of Humanities, and Nathan teaches in the School
of Historical, Religious, and Philosophical Studies. I think I got
(01:58):
that right.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Wow, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And do you guys ever cross paths at work or.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Is it just in lodge?
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Justin Lodge? He comes. He has presented at Ascension our
Lodge a number of times, and he also works with
Tria Prima Press, which put out his book, and also
Jamie Paul Lamb who is also in that group.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
See you can see where the circle of trust is here.
But it's also interesting because I say this all the time.
You know, we will get into talking about the science
of happiness and meaning. That's why worschalvil Brother crosses here.
But it's fascinating to me this circle of life and
how in Freemasonry. I mean, you work with worsch for
Brother Chick on campus, paths don't really cross there, but
(02:43):
they cross in a Masonic lodge and you're like, Wow,
I'm in this fraternity of like minded men and I
get to meet all of these people that even if
I work on the same grounds or in the same
town or live in the same area, I never would
come across them in everyday life.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
It's awesome.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Yeah, that is one of the advantages, right of Freemasonry
being what sociologists call a third space, a place that
it isn't work and it isn't home, and we're like
minded people can gather and share ideas. There's even theories
going back to twelve the seventeen hundreds that one of
(03:18):
the reasons the Enlightenment accelerated was because of coffeehouses starting
to show up and Mason's getting together. And of course
we know that the first lodges were held in taverns,
and there's probably I would say functional reason for that.
Brings people together who wouldn't normally get together.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Right, these are like minded men, and it leads perfectly
into our discussion here this science those seeking happiness and meaning.
You gave us your background as far as being a
teacher a professor at unfortunately Arizona State University. I'm not
going to hold that against you as a u of alum,
but when did you first make these we I'd like
(03:57):
to ask, like the Masonic connection between personal life in
these studies and maybe a lesson or a part of
our ritual or the degrees that you're like, hmm, interesting,
there's a happiness meaning here with freemasonry too.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Well, my journey into Freemasonry is a bit unique. So
I am a Mormon, and I was going to graduate
school at the University of Pennsylvania, and there's lodges everywhere there,
and I had thought back, you know, when I was
nineteen years old, the Mormon Church sent me on a
mission to Brazil. And I was down in Brazil for
(04:31):
two years, and all these prominent guys were giving me
handshakes that I recognized having been an initiated Mormon in
the Mormon Temple. And so I was a little curious
about that. And so once I got to Philadelphia, I
sought out a lodge and it was a small Lodge
hiring number eighty one in Chestnut Hill, Philadelphia. It's now
(04:55):
called Mitchell Lodge something or other and joined a great
group of brothers there in Philadelphia. And really for me,
it was one wanting to understand the deeper symbolism of
Freemasonry that also, frankly is transported into Mormon tradition, but
(05:15):
also wanting to get outside of my regular group of
friends and my bubble that was, you know, everyone talked
about the same things, not the same things, and how
could I get with some other people to hear some
new ideas beyond the university that I was attending. And
I thought Pree mainstream would be a great place. Do
(05:36):
you have some of that inter group contact and learn
from others. That laws that I joined was predominantly populated
by Jewish brothers, and so I got to learn a lot.
And when the first gifts that they gave me was
the first five books of the Old Testament and said, hey,
(05:56):
take a look at this chapter. In this chapter related
to our to our ritual, and it was exciting to
be able to learn from others.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
It's interesting because each of us approach a Masonic lodge
or even the beginning of our Masonic journey from different angles, right,
and then there's that thing that calls us and draws
us near, and then we meet this whole host of
like other people that have this tremendous impact in our lives.
We're going to get into that a little bit here
with your presentation on the meaning of science and happiness,
(06:25):
especially as it relates to Freemasonry. One of the things
you can help me out with is you open up
with an introduction on the perma model. What is that
and how does it kind of serve as a backbone
of like what helps us feel happiness?
Speaker 4 (06:40):
These ideas are coming out of you know, Socrates playdown Aristotle,
particularly Aristotle's conception of what happiness is, and it is
translated as happiness, But the Greek word is you diemonia.
And if you want to break that down to what
it literally means, it means having a good spirit, or
(07:02):
if you want to get more esoteric about it, it
means having the good demon. It's more than happiness, it's not.
Happiness has a couple things inside of it. One, the
word of happiness is the same root word of happenstance,
So there's some sort of luck involved. If you're happy,
and scientifically, in positive psychology, which is where I come
(07:24):
out of, happiness is an effective description. So it's how
you feel when you have good feelings. But what Aristol
and others meant by daemonia is something more akin to flourishing,
like as a plant would flourish. So this involves, yes,
(07:44):
having happy feelings, but also having a bunch of other
components that make up what a happy or good life
that looked like. And that brings us to this idea
of the perma model. And this is invented by Martin
Selgman at the University of Pennsylvania. He's known as the
father of positive psychology. And I was introduced to it
(08:08):
first my wife and I were living in Philadelphia. I
was going to pen She was working at the Templeton
Foundation at the time, and she said we need to
go to this dinner worked in. I said, okay, I said,
what is it about. She said, we're funding this guy's
research on happiness. And I got to meet Martin Seligman
for the first time. This is, you know, almost twenty
(08:30):
years ago, and started reading some of his material, particularly
in this book called Authentic Happiness.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Bonus points for the visual aids for the YouTube live
streamers too, good job with that.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Okayk problem? And so basically what Selgman And he was
the former president of the American Psychological Association, and he said,
we've done a great job of making miserable people less miserable.
So that's good and a lot of all. You know,
(09:02):
we've done a lot of good stuff with therapies and
medications and stuff like that. But what about taking people
from negative one to plus three on the happiness scale,
if you will. Psychology should be more than just about
pathology what's wrong with you? But how can we scientifically
(09:25):
study and quantify the best parts of the human experience?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
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(10:39):
And it's also fascinating to me when you talk about
meaning and this has been like an underlying theme I
think on the podcast with several of our guests, but
also just in writing, is the whole male loneliness epidemic
that is existing out there? And it got me thinking
to the specific interested gentlemen who come to Masonic lodges.
And it's a variation, I would say, of the same
(11:00):
answer to the same question, which is why are you
interested in freemasonry. They're looking for some sort of purpose,
they want to have a meaningful life, they're looking for
a better group of men to be around. And you've
touched on all of those with those points. So is
that kind of where our phrase of making good men better?
I guess that is perma friendly. It works.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
I wrote my dissertation on something called grit, which is
like true grit, that's a passion and persistence for long
term goals. But when I started zooming out a bit
and then seeing the connections between freemasonry and sort of
living the good life if you would like it, and
especially since we have four pardon more virtues for instance
(11:44):
in our second degree, there starts to be some real overlap.
And you're right the motto of making good men better.
The question for me was, well, how are we actually
doing that? How are we actually delivering on that brand
promise if you will, that we will make good men better.
And a lot of the things that we do, such
(12:07):
as you've been mentioning relationships with men of quillw the
men that you might not have met before. That social
connections and social networking that happens is very helpful, can
be found in other organizations like the Rotary Club or
(12:30):
some belts or something else. So then my next question
always is, well, what makes me masonry different than those
And we can get into that, I think second half
of our discussion, But there is My argument is there's
an exoteric part of the equation of making good men better,
which we're going to talk about the cause of the
(12:51):
psychology lend. And then there's an esoteric version of making
good men better with the internal work that we do
and involves no religion, as we always say, but spiritual
growth and some form of encountering transcendent experience.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Another bonus of first guest to give a long tease
on the podcast of what is to come next? And
I'm guessing we're about to enter into the area here,
Worship Brother across On. As my dad used to say
in his generation, money can't buy you happiness, he used
to say, but it can buy you the things that
make you happy. Today we live in this instant gratification
(13:30):
world where we see it now as Master Mason's. You'll
have a new guy that comes and he wants to
give the petition. He wants to get all the degrees,
and he wants to be in the club, so to speak.
And you're like, whoa, there's a staggered approach. There's a
timeline here.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
It's totally worth it.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
So, in your opinion, how do we learn the difference,
the healthy difference between happiness and satisfaction and why is
it important to know that there is a difference between
these two things?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Well, one is to know that effective happiness, meaning the
way you feel at any given moment, is fleeting. And
we have we want to increase positive emotions, but if
we're only chasing positive emotions, we get on something that
the philosopher's called the hedonic treadmill. So hedonism was all about,
(14:18):
you know, chasing after the next pleasurable thing. But it's
a treadmill because once you get to that pleasurable goal,
it's unsatisfying, and so you're going for the next thing
and you're stuck running after the next moon and next thing.
So that's the first thing to mention. But I also
say that life satisfaction is more about how satisfied are
(14:43):
you with your life? And I would say it's easier
to do looking backwards than forwards. How satisfied do you
feel just with your life, whether or not you're feeling
happy at any given moment, are you feeling satisfied? It's
more of a cognitive judge of how satisfied you are
as your life as a whole. Now, what they found
(15:04):
and to your question, this is one of the first
reason I often bring this up at the beginning, is
can money buying me happiness? Right? That's a question, and
answer is yes to a certain extent. Now, the studies
they've done on these and money by your happiness are
like ten years old now, so we need adjust these amounts.
And I'm about to say for inflation. But once you
(15:26):
get to an income level depending on where you live,
somewhere between seventy five thousand dollars and one hundred thousand
dollars a year ten years ago. Now, let's adjust that
up right, I'm making up numbers. Now, let's say it's
one hundred and fifty to two fifty or something like that.
Once you hit those points, your effective happiness sort of
(15:46):
levels off. So your good feelings, the hedonic treadmill effect
doesn't work anymore. But life satisfaction scores actually continue to
rise the more money you may because you feel more
accomplished and more satis. So it's a nuanced answer I
just gave you, which is you're not going to feel
any better, but you might have praised that your life
is more successful and you're more satisfied with it the
(16:09):
more money you make, which is often a confusing route
for people because they are chasing the good feeling part.
The affect of happiness and then they're going to hit
a plateau, so.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
They're kind of connected the two. Like, you can be happy,
but it doesn't mean anything to you because it's just
a temporary, fleeting thing. You can feel like you have
meaning in your life, but if it's not long term
or shared with others, you're just not going to feel
the genuine happiness. So you're always going to be seeking
that feeling. Am I hearing this right?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Yeah? It's more like flourishing is the goal, and these
perma components are components. They are pieces that can help
make a more well rounded, flourishing life. So if you
have no positive emotions in your life, that's going to
(17:00):
be really hard to have a flourishing sort of lifestyle.
The phrase pursuit of happiness did not mean feeling good.
It meant being good. That's what they meant. They meant
the classical sense of being good. Sure, we want to
have some of these, you know, pleasurable experiences, but they've
(17:21):
done studies, for example, that after the first four spoonfuls
of ice cream, the pleasurable effect as a diminishing in turn, right,
So that we don't just want to focus on that,
we want to make sure that we're also including engagement
relationship meaning achievement, and tierpoint health underbirding that in some way.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Well, it's interesting too, because you know, we're just coming
out of at the time of this podcast recording, George
Went the actor who played Norm from Cheers, and we're
probably dating ourselves a little bit with some of this generation.
But he was well known for walking in and away
is being offered a beer and saying, hey, why not,
And that's where he found his happiness was in beer.
And it's interesting because we use that term in a
(18:01):
modern sense, but really joy is probably the better expression
of how we feel about certain things because, as you said,
happiness is kind of raising yourself up, which goes to again,
congratulations being the first guest to ever long tease themselves.
The conversation you wanted to have about exo exoteric or
external factors and then internal inherent factors of where we
(18:24):
can seek happiness to then find that meaning connection.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Well, since I'm I've often taught in business schools, I
like to think of things as through a breato analysis.
In eighty twenty breato analysis, what's the least amount of
work to get the most results? And when I look
at the Prima model, I say you should probably focus
on relationships and meaning. So this is the exoteric conversation.
(18:47):
And if you look back at those clips that have
been going around on social media about Norm and the
last scene of Tears where he says I love beer
and that's why I come here, that's actually not the
real answer. The real answer is in the beginning intro
song of cheers that I want to go where everyone
(19:10):
knows my name. It's a community component, and so the
reason why those folks are gathering in this third space
safe to express different ideas and make friends. So when
I look at the Prima model, I'm looking for my
eighty twenty analysis, and I would say, practically, if you
(19:31):
want to get the most out of this model, focus
on relationships and focus on meaning. And Timothy Wilson at
the University of Virginia and in his famous book Redirect,
he sort of summarized all the literature happiness and flourishing.
He said, if we want to be happy and have
(19:51):
a flourishing life, relationships is the number one thing, and
it also matters for longevity as well. There's studies that
show who is a lie at the end of ten
years and what factors predicted that? And the top two
were social integration, which means do I know my pharmacists,
(20:13):
do I know my neighbor? That was the number one
predictor of whether or not someone be alive in ten years.
The second one was close relationships, no surprise as we
just talked about that, and then three, four and five
were sort of interesting but obvious like quit smoking, quit drinking,
and get a flu vaccine. I would expect, you know,
(20:36):
quit smoking to be number one, but it's not. It's
about for health, even it's about sociality. And you mentioned
for example, this loneliness pandemic post pandemic, and so masonry
can help with that.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I want to talk about a couple of other points
that you touch on in your presentation on good Men
Being Better, as we talk about the science behind happiness
and meaningness, and you talk about the benefits of journaling.
This is something that I've started to do on my
phone because the new iPhone app, I think it's just
called journal. You can actually lock these thoughts, so you
(21:39):
don't have to worry about your wife or your kids,
who may even know your password, being able to get
to this. Can you talk a little bit about how
journaling is effective and how to do it more effectively
and part of the process of our pursuit of happiness
or to happiness.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Well, one of the number one interventions that has robust
evidence behind it is gratitude journals. So, if you want
to feel more grateful, write down things every day that
you're grateful for. And if you find yourself falling into
the trap that you're a ard writing list of things
you're grateful for, or you start thinking, oh, well, look
(22:19):
at all these things I earned myself and I'm grateful
for them, there's another protocol where they ask you, instead
of just writing what you're grateful for every day, right,
sort of the miraculous things that happened to you that
day or in your life, things that were undeserved if
you will, that you have observed in your life, like
(22:42):
a chance meeting with someone, or I didn't get hit
by the bus, you know that when I was crossing
the streets. If these things, these things that were not
in my control, whether that I'm even more grateful for.
They found that that is even more active. I've heard
it all to use in a gratitude journaling space.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
And one of the things I like about the iPhone app.
Not like I'm trying to plug it or anything or
push this on our listener, but I do it frequently.
And what I find fascinating about it is it's kind
of tied into your calendar and other communications that you
have with people, so it will prompt you. And if
there's really nothing going on in your life that you
want to specifically journal on, these are great ways to
(23:26):
kind of recall, like, oh my gosh, this is what
the biggest thing was on my mind back in February
of this year, and imagine where I'm thinking about things
that are important now. And it is neat to go
back and see, as you said, it's kind of like
that self progressive. How did I overcome that? And wow
that that was such a big urdle or challenge for
me at that time, and I did it, And now
(23:48):
I'm onto this other thing and I can't wait to
see six months from now where I'm going to be
in life.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
In America. Dan McAdams, who's the father of narrative of psychology,
but he says, in America we love a redemptive narrative.
So like you're talking about, my grandparents came from nothing.
Now we've redeemed ourselves that way, or sort of if
(24:14):
you think about the hero's journey just of Campbell type
of stuff, Novice become encounters something hard and there's a tragedy,
and there's a low point, usually a double low point
as Kirk Bonnaguet would say, and then there's the rising
action at the end, right, And so writing things down
is it's really important because we have these stories running
(24:36):
in our heads all these times, self and psychology.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I want to close out with this last question because
you kind of wrap up your presentation with the real
focus on relationships. And to me, relationships are the most
important things in my life, not the actual physical, my car,
any prize, possessions. It's the moments and the meaningful people
that are like in my circle of trust, in my
(25:00):
circle of love, that just they mean the most to
me and that's what makes me happy, That's what drives
my joy. However, we live in this world which you
have congratulations now joined this list of people that I've
made a connection with or even interacted with, but in
a digital or virtual space, what is the challenge and
(25:20):
how are there healthy ways to pursue these kind of
relationships with this technology, and is there anything that you
see in this new space that's promising or even exciting.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
I think is very exciting. I'm very pro online digital,
even probably more optimistic than most about AI and what's
coming for us or is already here. But that said,
there is no replacement for some face to face interact.
(25:53):
There's just something different about that. So, you know, Robin Dunbar,
are these the famous researcher out of the UK talked
about friendship and he came up with Dunbar's number, which
says that humans, evolutionarily, we can't handle more than one
hundred and fifty relationships and there's really only maybe, let's
(26:19):
say ten people that you can be kind of close with,
and there's only really one person you can be really
intimate relationship with, and so fostering those are important and
those have to be nurtured. So could it be through
a digital means that daily contact that is needed to
(26:41):
maintain the relationship of an intimate partner. Yes, they could be,
but it's probably better that some of these things happen.
If you just think about the lage structure, like or
even most religions, over time, there's a reason we as
humans have figured out if we get together once a
week or once a month, we can sort of keep
(27:03):
our social eyes pretty strong. Longer than that you start
to to dissipate a bit. So I would say you
can supplement a majority of my meetings, of course are
on zoom as yours are or others, but intentionally make
(27:25):
what I would call punctuated in person meanings. I wrote, hiord,
what follow up question on that?
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Because I'm sure there's people that are listening and going,
oh well, this could be easier for some and harder
for others Like myself. I'm a natural extrovert, which makes
me a fantastic brother and Mason because I can easily
walk into a room and make friends with people, other
folks introverts may struggle with this. Does that mean that
those that have a harder time making relationships are going
(27:54):
to have a more narrow or challenging path to finding
happiness and meaning?
Speaker 4 (27:59):
So then interesting thing is that Adam Grant has just
been Adam Grant from the Warden School Business has been
commenting on the misunderstanding of what an extrovert and introvert is.
I'm actually an intro I'm an introvert has learned to
be an extrot to make it in the world, if
you will. And the distinction usually described between extroverts and
(28:21):
introverts is extroverts get their energy from being around people
and talking to people, and introverts get their energy by
being more solitude and those kinds of things. But the
actual answer is what the research says. It's a number
of people you're around. So everybody extrovert introvert needs some sociology,
(28:45):
if you will. It's just that if I go to
Costco on Saturday, that drains my energy real me too, right.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
There's a lot of things I'd rather do.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Stay in line at the DMV, for example, they go
to Costco on Saturday or Sunday.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
That's right, exactly exactly. So for introverts, it's not that
they will have a harder time, is that they need
to curate who is that very small group of people
they want to interact with on a regular basis, whereas
extroverts would be more happy with interacting with large groups
(29:25):
of people more often.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
So I'm a big point within a circle. Guy, We're
going to get a little esoteric. It's a symbol that
gets introduced at the end of the intert apprentice degree
and kind of gets buried with a bunch of other
things you hear about how lodges are formed, and kind
of a little bit of a history of Freemasonry. And
I love it. And one of the many interpretations of
the point within a circle, as I always as we talk,
(29:48):
as we learn about us being in the center of
the point and the circle is our relationships with other
people is. And it always gets a laugh when I
give this presentation or say this line, and lodges is
that some guys have bigger circles than other guys, right,
some people are more open in summers, and it's important
on us as Freemasons when we interact with other brothers
(30:09):
to recognize that and also to understand that the point
isn't always sometimes directly in the center of the circles.
Some people could be closer to one aid wedge edge
or further to the other. So I can see on
YouTube like you're shaking your head, So pick up from there,
like where do you go with this? And the point
within the circle, Well.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
I would say it's many points within many circles, even
in the same lodge, right, So, and I think one
of the jobs of the senior war in particular, sometimes
the worst master, but senior warden in particular is to
match make friends inside of a lodge. It's also interesting
(30:50):
that I belong to a lodge that has a cap
on the number of members we will ever allow to
be in, and that's that they made it up before
I joined, of course, But that is based on sort
of this research from Dunbar that if you want to
have he has three levels intimate friends, close friends, best friends.
(31:10):
You know. I belong to big lodges and those are fine,
but then there needs to be a concerted effort to
create affinity groups or something inside of those huge lodges.
I work at a very large institution university I work at,
and we found ways to make smaller groups inside a
(31:33):
large organization. I think that's really important. So I would
say my interpretation is, yes, it could be that the
point is leaning over towards one side of that circle,
but maybe it's lots of points and lots of circles
been diagram.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Thanks again to my guest this week, Worship of Brother
Ted Cross, for helping us understand the difference between happy
meaning and in life. If you've enjoyed this episode, I
know you'd enjoy hearing it ad free.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, no commercials from me. That's what happens.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
If you're a Patreon subscriber the Craftsman Online Podcast, Yep,
we're on Patreon, and for five dollars a month you
can support the show, which, oh.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Thank you so much in advance for that.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Plus get access to the full catalog of all of
our past episodes and all that secret extra bonus footage
we're always talking about. Get the link down the notes
for this episode, I'm right worship of Brother Michael Lars
until our time together next week.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
But peace and harmony prevail
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, Concordant Body, a pendant Body,
Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only Masonic
podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York. I'm
your host, right worshe for Brother Michael Arsay. I can't
believe we are into the month of August. Wow, where
is this summer and this year going?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
These days?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
You hear the term I'm searching for my happy, I'm
searching for my joy, and that's all good, But would
you understand that there's a science behind happiness and a
meaning to life. Yeah, if you're looking for more than
just a dash of contentment or a little bit more
than just well being in your life, this is the
episode just for you. As I feel like I'm getting
(01:07):
a little flashback of deja vu here as we welcome
in this week's guest, Worshipful Brother Ted Cross. Welcome to
the Craftsman Online Podcast.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Thanks for having me excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It's not that you and Nathan look the same and
you don't sound the same either, but on my screen
and for those watching on YouTube live they can see
the streaming feed your background very similar. And then when
we started talking about Arizona, I was like, wait a second,
didn't I just talk to you? So you do work
with Nathan? There is a connection here.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Yeah, Nathan works at Arizona State University and I work
at Arizona State University as well. I lead character education
across the university, and I'm a professor of practice and
the College of Humanities, and Nathan teaches in the School
of Historical, Religious, and Philosophical Studies. I think I got
(01:58):
that right.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Wow, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And do you guys ever cross paths at work or.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Is it just in lodge?
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Justin Lodge? He comes. He has presented at Ascension our
Lodge a number of times, and he also works with
Tria Prima Press, which put out his book, and also
Jamie Paul Lamb who is also in that group.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
See you can see where the circle of trust is here.
But it's also interesting because I say this all the time.
You know, we will get into talking about the science
of happiness and meaning. That's why worschalvil Brother crosses here.
But it's fascinating to me this circle of life and
how in Freemasonry. I mean, you work with worsch for
Brother Chick on campus, paths don't really cross there, but
(02:43):
they cross in a Masonic lodge and you're like, Wow,
I'm in this fraternity of like minded men and I
get to meet all of these people that even if
I work on the same grounds or in the same
town or live in the same area, I never would
come across them in everyday life.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
It's awesome.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Yeah, that is one of the advantages, right of Freemasonry
being what sociologists call a third space, a place that
it isn't work and it isn't home, and we're like
minded people can gather and share ideas. There's even theories
going back to twelve the seventeen hundreds that one of
(03:18):
the reasons the Enlightenment accelerated was because of coffeehouses starting
to show up and Mason's getting together. And of course
we know that the first lodges were held in taverns,
and there's probably I would say functional reason for that.
Brings people together who wouldn't normally get together.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Right, these are like minded men, and it leads perfectly
into our discussion here this science those seeking happiness and meaning.
You gave us your background as far as being a
teacher a professor at unfortunately Arizona State University. I'm not
going to hold that against you as a u of alum,
but when did you first make these we I'd like
(03:57):
to ask, like the Masonic connection between personal life in
these studies and maybe a lesson or a part of
our ritual or the degrees that you're like, hmm, interesting,
there's a happiness meaning here with freemasonry too.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Well, my journey into Freemasonry is a bit unique. So
I am a Mormon, and I was going to graduate
school at the University of Pennsylvania, and there's lodges everywhere there,
and I had thought back, you know, when I was
nineteen years old, the Mormon Church sent me on a
mission to Brazil. And I was down in Brazil for
(04:31):
two years, and all these prominent guys were giving me
handshakes that I recognized having been an initiated Mormon in
the Mormon Temple. And so I was a little curious
about that. And so once I got to Philadelphia, I
sought out a lodge and it was a small Lodge
hiring number eighty one in Chestnut Hill, Philadelphia. It's now
(04:55):
called Mitchell Lodge something or other and joined a great
group of brothers there in Philadelphia. And really for me,
it was one wanting to understand the deeper symbolism of
Freemasonry that also, frankly is transported into Mormon tradition, but
(05:15):
also wanting to get outside of my regular group of
friends and my bubble that was, you know, everyone talked
about the same things, not the same things, and how
could I get with some other people to hear some
new ideas beyond the university that I was attending. And
I thought Pree mainstream would be a great place. Do
(05:36):
you have some of that inter group contact and learn
from others. That laws that I joined was predominantly populated
by Jewish brothers, and so I got to learn a lot.
And when the first gifts that they gave me was
the first five books of the Old Testament and said, hey,
(05:56):
take a look at this chapter. In this chapter related
to our to our ritual, and it was exciting to
be able to learn from others.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
It's interesting because each of us approach a Masonic lodge
or even the beginning of our Masonic journey from different angles, right,
and then there's that thing that calls us and draws
us near, and then we meet this whole host of
like other people that have this tremendous impact in our lives.
We're going to get into that a little bit here
with your presentation on the meaning of science and happiness,
(06:25):
especially as it relates to Freemasonry. One of the things
you can help me out with is you open up
with an introduction on the perma model. What is that
and how does it kind of serve as a backbone
of like what helps us feel happiness?
Speaker 4 (06:40):
These ideas are coming out of you know, Socrates playdown Aristotle,
particularly Aristotle's conception of what happiness is, and it is
translated as happiness, But the Greek word is you diemonia.
And if you want to break that down to what
it literally means, it means having a good spirit, or
(07:02):
if you want to get more esoteric about it, it
means having the good demon. It's more than happiness, it's not.
Happiness has a couple things inside of it. One, the
word of happiness is the same root word of happenstance,
So there's some sort of luck involved. If you're happy,
and scientifically, in positive psychology, which is where I come
(07:24):
out of, happiness is an effective description. So it's how
you feel when you have good feelings. But what Aristol
and others meant by daemonia is something more akin to flourishing,
like as a plant would flourish. So this involves, yes,
(07:44):
having happy feelings, but also having a bunch of other
components that make up what a happy or good life
that looked like. And that brings us to this idea
of the perma model. And this is invented by Martin
Selgman at the University of Pennsylvania. He's known as the
father of positive psychology. And I was introduced to it
(08:08):
first my wife and I were living in Philadelphia. I
was going to pen She was working at the Templeton
Foundation at the time, and she said we need to
go to this dinner worked in. I said, okay, I said,
what is it about. She said, we're funding this guy's
research on happiness. And I got to meet Martin Seligman
for the first time. This is, you know, almost twenty
(08:30):
years ago, and started reading some of his material, particularly
in this book called Authentic Happiness.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Bonus points for the visual aids for the YouTube live
streamers too, good job with that.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Okayk problem? And so basically what Selgman And he was
the former president of the American Psychological Association, and he said,
we've done a great job of making miserable people less miserable.
So that's good and a lot of all. You know,
(09:02):
we've done a lot of good stuff with therapies and
medications and stuff like that. But what about taking people
from negative one to plus three on the happiness scale,
if you will. Psychology should be more than just about
pathology what's wrong with you? But how can we scientifically
(09:25):
study and quantify the best parts of the human experience?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
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(10:39):
And it's also fascinating to me when you talk about
meaning and this has been like an underlying theme I
think on the podcast with several of our guests, but
also just in writing, is the whole male loneliness epidemic
that is existing out there? And it got me thinking
to the specific interested gentlemen who come to Masonic lodges.
And it's a variation, I would say, of the same
(11:00):
answer to the same question, which is why are you
interested in freemasonry. They're looking for some sort of purpose,
they want to have a meaningful life, they're looking for
a better group of men to be around. And you've
touched on all of those with those points. So is
that kind of where our phrase of making good men better?
I guess that is perma friendly. It works.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
I wrote my dissertation on something called grit, which is
like true grit, that's a passion and persistence for long
term goals. But when I started zooming out a bit
and then seeing the connections between freemasonry and sort of
living the good life if you would like it, and
especially since we have four pardon more virtues for instance
(11:44):
in our second degree, there starts to be some real overlap.
And you're right the motto of making good men better.
The question for me was, well, how are we actually
doing that? How are we actually delivering on that brand
promise if you will, that we will make good men better.
And a lot of the things that we do, such
(12:07):
as you've been mentioning relationships with men of quillw the
men that you might not have met before. That social
connections and social networking that happens is very helpful, can
be found in other organizations like the Rotary Club or
(12:30):
some belts or something else. So then my next question
always is, well, what makes me masonry different than those
And we can get into that, I think second half
of our discussion, But there is My argument is there's
an exoteric part of the equation of making good men better,
which we're going to talk about the cause of the
(12:51):
psychology lend. And then there's an esoteric version of making
good men better with the internal work that we do
and involves no religion, as we always say, but spiritual
growth and some form of encountering transcendent experience.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Another bonus of first guest to give a long tease
on the podcast of what is to come next? And
I'm guessing we're about to enter into the area here,
Worship Brother across On. As my dad used to say
in his generation, money can't buy you happiness, he used
to say, but it can buy you the things that
make you happy. Today we live in this instant gratification
(13:30):
world where we see it now as Master Mason's. You'll
have a new guy that comes and he wants to
give the petition. He wants to get all the degrees,
and he wants to be in the club, so to speak.
And you're like, whoa, there's a staggered approach. There's a
timeline here.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
It's totally worth it.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
So, in your opinion, how do we learn the difference,
the healthy difference between happiness and satisfaction and why is
it important to know that there is a difference between
these two things?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Well, one is to know that effective happiness, meaning the
way you feel at any given moment, is fleeting. And
we have we want to increase positive emotions, but if
we're only chasing positive emotions, we get on something that
the philosopher's called the hedonic treadmill. So hedonism was all about,
(14:18):
you know, chasing after the next pleasurable thing. But it's
a treadmill because once you get to that pleasurable goal,
it's unsatisfying, and so you're going for the next thing
and you're stuck running after the next moon and next thing.
So that's the first thing to mention. But I also
say that life satisfaction is more about how satisfied are
(14:43):
you with your life? And I would say it's easier
to do looking backwards than forwards. How satisfied do you
feel just with your life, whether or not you're feeling
happy at any given moment, are you feeling satisfied? It's
more of a cognitive judge of how satisfied you are
as your life as a whole. Now, what they found
(15:04):
and to your question, this is one of the first
reason I often bring this up at the beginning, is
can money buying me happiness? Right? That's a question, and
answer is yes to a certain extent. Now, the studies
they've done on these and money by your happiness are
like ten years old now, so we need adjust these amounts.
And I'm about to say for inflation. But once you
(15:26):
get to an income level depending on where you live,
somewhere between seventy five thousand dollars and one hundred thousand
dollars a year ten years ago. Now, let's adjust that
up right, I'm making up numbers. Now, let's say it's
one hundred and fifty to two fifty or something like that.
Once you hit those points, your effective happiness sort of
(15:46):
levels off. So your good feelings, the hedonic treadmill effect
doesn't work anymore. But life satisfaction scores actually continue to
rise the more money you may because you feel more
accomplished and more satis. So it's a nuanced answer I
just gave you, which is you're not going to feel
any better, but you might have praised that your life
is more successful and you're more satisfied with it the
(16:09):
more money you make, which is often a confusing route
for people because they are chasing the good feeling part.
The affect of happiness and then they're going to hit
a plateau, so.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
They're kind of connected the two. Like, you can be happy,
but it doesn't mean anything to you because it's just
a temporary, fleeting thing. You can feel like you have
meaning in your life, but if it's not long term
or shared with others, you're just not going to feel
the genuine happiness. So you're always going to be seeking
that feeling. Am I hearing this right?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Yeah? It's more like flourishing is the goal, and these
perma components are components. They are pieces that can help
make a more well rounded, flourishing life. So if you
have no positive emotions in your life, that's going to
(17:00):
be really hard to have a flourishing sort of lifestyle.
The phrase pursuit of happiness did not mean feeling good.
It meant being good. That's what they meant. They meant
the classical sense of being good. Sure, we want to
have some of these, you know, pleasurable experiences, but they've
(17:21):
done studies, for example, that after the first four spoonfuls
of ice cream, the pleasurable effect as a diminishing in turn, right,
So that we don't just want to focus on that,
we want to make sure that we're also including engagement
relationship meaning achievement, and tierpoint health underbirding that in some way.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Well, it's interesting too, because you know, we're just coming
out of at the time of this podcast recording, George
Went the actor who played Norm from Cheers, and we're
probably dating ourselves a little bit with some of this generation.
But he was well known for walking in and away
is being offered a beer and saying, hey, why not,
And that's where he found his happiness was in beer.
And it's interesting because we use that term in a
(18:01):
modern sense, but really joy is probably the better expression
of how we feel about certain things because, as you said,
happiness is kind of raising yourself up, which goes to again,
congratulations being the first guest to ever long tease themselves.
The conversation you wanted to have about exo exoteric or
external factors and then internal inherent factors of where we
(18:24):
can seek happiness to then find that meaning connection.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Well, since I'm I've often taught in business schools, I
like to think of things as through a breato analysis.
In eighty twenty breato analysis, what's the least amount of
work to get the most results? And when I look
at the Prima model, I say you should probably focus
on relationships and meaning. So this is the exoteric conversation.
(18:47):
And if you look back at those clips that have
been going around on social media about Norm and the
last scene of Tears where he says I love beer
and that's why I come here, that's actually not the
real answer. The real answer is in the beginning intro
song of cheers that I want to go where everyone
(19:10):
knows my name. It's a community component, and so the
reason why those folks are gathering in this third space
safe to express different ideas and make friends. So when
I look at the Prima model, I'm looking for my
eighty twenty analysis, and I would say, practically, if you
(19:31):
want to get the most out of this model, focus
on relationships and focus on meaning. And Timothy Wilson at
the University of Virginia and in his famous book Redirect,
he sort of summarized all the literature happiness and flourishing.
He said, if we want to be happy and have
(19:51):
a flourishing life, relationships is the number one thing, and
it also matters for longevity as well. There's studies that
show who is a lie at the end of ten
years and what factors predicted that? And the top two
were social integration, which means do I know my pharmacists,
(20:13):
do I know my neighbor? That was the number one
predictor of whether or not someone be alive in ten years.
The second one was close relationships, no surprise as we
just talked about that, and then three, four and five
were sort of interesting but obvious like quit smoking, quit drinking,
and get a flu vaccine. I would expect, you know,
(20:36):
quit smoking to be number one, but it's not. It's
about for health, even it's about sociality. And you mentioned
for example, this loneliness pandemic post pandemic, and so masonry
can help with that.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I want to talk about a couple of other points
that you touch on in your presentation on good Men
Being Better, as we talk about the science behind happiness
and meaningness, and you talk about the benefits of journaling.
This is something that I've started to do on my
phone because the new iPhone app, I think it's just
called journal. You can actually lock these thoughts, so you
(21:39):
don't have to worry about your wife or your kids,
who may even know your password, being able to get
to this. Can you talk a little bit about how
journaling is effective and how to do it more effectively
and part of the process of our pursuit of happiness
or to happiness.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Well, one of the number one interventions that has robust
evidence behind it is gratitude journals. So, if you want
to feel more grateful, write down things every day that
you're grateful for. And if you find yourself falling into
the trap that you're a ard writing list of things
you're grateful for, or you start thinking, oh, well, look
(22:19):
at all these things I earned myself and I'm grateful
for them, there's another protocol where they ask you, instead
of just writing what you're grateful for every day, right,
sort of the miraculous things that happened to you that
day or in your life, things that were undeserved if
you will, that you have observed in your life, like
(22:42):
a chance meeting with someone, or I didn't get hit
by the bus, you know that when I was crossing
the streets. If these things, these things that were not
in my control, whether that I'm even more grateful for.
They found that that is even more active. I've heard
it all to use in a gratitude journaling space.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
And one of the things I like about the iPhone app.
Not like I'm trying to plug it or anything or
push this on our listener, but I do it frequently.
And what I find fascinating about it is it's kind
of tied into your calendar and other communications that you
have with people, so it will prompt you. And if
there's really nothing going on in your life that you
want to specifically journal on, these are great ways to
(23:26):
kind of recall, like, oh my gosh, this is what
the biggest thing was on my mind back in February
of this year, and imagine where I'm thinking about things
that are important now. And it is neat to go
back and see, as you said, it's kind of like
that self progressive. How did I overcome that? And wow
that that was such a big urdle or challenge for
me at that time, and I did it, And now
(23:48):
I'm onto this other thing and I can't wait to
see six months from now where I'm going to be
in life.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
In America. Dan McAdams, who's the father of narrative of psychology,
but he says, in America we love a redemptive narrative.
So like you're talking about, my grandparents came from nothing.
Now we've redeemed ourselves that way, or sort of if
(24:14):
you think about the hero's journey just of Campbell type
of stuff, Novice become encounters something hard and there's a tragedy,
and there's a low point, usually a double low point
as Kirk Bonnaguet would say, and then there's the rising
action at the end, right, And so writing things down
is it's really important because we have these stories running
(24:36):
in our heads all these times, self and psychology.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I want to close out with this last question because
you kind of wrap up your presentation with the real
focus on relationships. And to me, relationships are the most
important things in my life, not the actual physical, my car,
any prize, possessions. It's the moments and the meaningful people
that are like in my circle of trust, in my
(25:00):
circle of love, that just they mean the most to
me and that's what makes me happy, That's what drives
my joy. However, we live in this world which you
have congratulations now joined this list of people that I've
made a connection with or even interacted with, but in
a digital or virtual space, what is the challenge and
(25:20):
how are there healthy ways to pursue these kind of
relationships with this technology, and is there anything that you
see in this new space that's promising or even exciting.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
I think is very exciting. I'm very pro online digital,
even probably more optimistic than most about AI and what's
coming for us or is already here. But that said,
there is no replacement for some face to face interact.
(25:53):
There's just something different about that. So, you know, Robin Dunbar,
are these the famous researcher out of the UK talked
about friendship and he came up with Dunbar's number, which
says that humans, evolutionarily, we can't handle more than one
hundred and fifty relationships and there's really only maybe, let's
(26:19):
say ten people that you can be kind of close with,
and there's only really one person you can be really
intimate relationship with, and so fostering those are important and
those have to be nurtured. So could it be through
a digital means that daily contact that is needed to
(26:41):
maintain the relationship of an intimate partner. Yes, they could be,
but it's probably better that some of these things happen.
If you just think about the lage structure, like or
even most religions, over time, there's a reason we as
humans have figured out if we get together once a
week or once a month, we can sort of keep
(27:03):
our social eyes pretty strong. Longer than that you start
to to dissipate a bit. So I would say you
can supplement a majority of my meetings, of course are
on zoom as yours are or others, but intentionally make
(27:25):
what I would call punctuated in person meanings. I wrote, hiord,
what follow up question on that?
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Because I'm sure there's people that are listening and going,
oh well, this could be easier for some and harder
for others Like myself. I'm a natural extrovert, which makes
me a fantastic brother and Mason because I can easily
walk into a room and make friends with people, other
folks introverts may struggle with this. Does that mean that
those that have a harder time making relationships are going
(27:54):
to have a more narrow or challenging path to finding
happiness and meaning?
Speaker 4 (27:59):
So then interesting thing is that Adam Grant has just
been Adam Grant from the Warden School Business has been
commenting on the misunderstanding of what an extrovert and introvert is.
I'm actually an intro I'm an introvert has learned to
be an extrot to make it in the world, if
you will. And the distinction usually described between extroverts and
(28:21):
introverts is extroverts get their energy from being around people
and talking to people, and introverts get their energy by
being more solitude and those kinds of things. But the
actual answer is what the research says. It's a number
of people you're around. So everybody extrovert introvert needs some sociology,
(28:45):
if you will. It's just that if I go to
Costco on Saturday, that drains my energy real me too, right.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
There's a lot of things I'd rather do.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Stay in line at the DMV, for example, they go
to Costco on Saturday or Sunday.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
That's right, exactly exactly. So for introverts, it's not that
they will have a harder time, is that they need
to curate who is that very small group of people
they want to interact with on a regular basis, whereas
extroverts would be more happy with interacting with large groups
(29:25):
of people more often.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
So I'm a big point within a circle. Guy, We're
going to get a little esoteric. It's a symbol that
gets introduced at the end of the intert apprentice degree
and kind of gets buried with a bunch of other
things you hear about how lodges are formed, and kind
of a little bit of a history of Freemasonry. And
I love it. And one of the many interpretations of
the point within a circle, as I always as we talk,
(29:48):
as we learn about us being in the center of
the point and the circle is our relationships with other
people is. And it always gets a laugh when I
give this presentation or say this line, and lodges is
that some guys have bigger circles than other guys, right,
some people are more open in summers, and it's important
on us as Freemasons when we interact with other brothers
(30:09):
to recognize that and also to understand that the point
isn't always sometimes directly in the center of the circles.
Some people could be closer to one aid wedge edge
or further to the other. So I can see on
YouTube like you're shaking your head, So pick up from there,
like where do you go with this? And the point
within the circle, Well.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
I would say it's many points within many circles, even
in the same lodge, right, So, and I think one
of the jobs of the senior war in particular, sometimes
the worst master, but senior warden in particular is to
match make friends inside of a lodge. It's also interesting
(30:50):
that I belong to a lodge that has a cap
on the number of members we will ever allow to
be in, and that's that they made it up before
I joined, of course, But that is based on sort
of this research from Dunbar that if you want to
have he has three levels intimate friends, close friends, best friends.
(31:10):
You know. I belong to big lodges and those are fine,
but then there needs to be a concerted effort to
create affinity groups or something inside of those huge lodges.
I work at a very large institution university I work at,
and we found ways to make smaller groups inside a
(31:33):
large organization. I think that's really important. So I would
say my interpretation is, yes, it could be that the
point is leaning over towards one side of that circle,
but maybe it's lots of points and lots of circles
been diagram.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Thanks again to my guest this week, Worship of Brother
Ted Cross, for helping us understand the difference between happy
meaning and in life. If you've enjoyed this episode, I
know you'd enjoy hearing it ad free.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, no commercials from me. That's what happens.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
If you're a Patreon subscriber the Craftsman Online Podcast, Yep,
we're on Patreon, and for five dollars a month you
can support the show, which, oh.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Thank you so much in advance for that.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Plus get access to the full catalog of all of
our past episodes and all that secret extra bonus footage
we're always talking about. Get the link down the notes
for this episode, I'm right worship of Brother Michael Lars
until our time together next week.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
But peace and harmony prevail
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