June 4, 2025 • 34 mins
Chef and PhD Public Health Nutritionist, Dr. Deborah Kennedy, joins Dr. Falquier to explore the evolving role of food as medicine programs in healthcare, what current financial structures support these programs and what funding mechanisms need to change. Whether you’re a healthcare professional, policymaker, or simply passionate about nutrition and wellness, this episode offers valuable insights into what systemic shifts are necessary to make nutrition-based healthcare more accessible and sustainable.
In this episode you’ll hear:
2:50 – Difference between food as medicine and culinary medicine
5:45 – What happens when medically tailored meals or produce prescriptions come to an end?
6:45 – How can culinary medicine outcomes be measured to show clinical and cost effectiveness? 11:00 – Who’s funding food prescriptions, medically tailored meals and nutrition education?
16:45 – Are there food as medicine programs outside the U.S.?
23:00 – Who pays for culinary medicine coaching?
24:30 – The future of culinary medicine
28:00 – Book series: Culinary Medicine From Clinic to Kitchen
31:00 – Dr. Kennedy’s Food Coach Academy
Resource
Health Affairs Journal, April 2025 I Food, Nutrition & Health
Credits:
Host – Dr. Sabrina Falquier, MD, CCMS, DipABLM
Sound and Editing – Will Crann
Executive Producer – Esther Garfin
©2025 Alternative Food Network Inc.
In this episode you’ll hear:
2:50 – Difference between food as medicine and culinary medicine
5:45 – What happens when medically tailored meals or produce prescriptions come to an end?
6:45 – How can culinary medicine outcomes be measured to show clinical and cost effectiveness? 11:00 – Who’s funding food prescriptions, medically tailored meals and nutrition education?
16:45 – Are there food as medicine programs outside the U.S.?
23:00 – Who pays for culinary medicine coaching?
24:30 – The future of culinary medicine
28:00 – Book series: Culinary Medicine From Clinic to Kitchen
31:00 – Dr. Kennedy’s Food Coach Academy
Resource
Health Affairs Journal, April 2025 I Food, Nutrition & Health
Credits:
Host – Dr. Sabrina Falquier, MD, CCMS, DipABLM
Sound and Editing – Will Crann
Executive Producer – Esther Garfin
©2025 Alternative Food Network Inc.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When the medically tailored meals and food and grocery goes away.
If you haven't taught your patient self efficacy how to
make that meal themselves taste good. Because it doesn't taste good,
they're not going to do it, then you've left them
more dependent on the medical system. And what I love
about food is medicine. It's about taking control of your
health in a very foundational way.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to Culinary Medicine Recipe. I'm so happy you're here.
I'm your host, doctor Sabrina Falke. I was a primary
care doctor for sixteen years and went to school for
four years to specialize in culinary medicine. In this work,
I get to combine my passionate expertise in both medicine
and food to teach people about food is medicine and
to empower them to understand what ingredients optimize health and
(00:45):
also how to cook those ingredients.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
To make delicious meals.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
On the show, I interviewed top chefs, doctors, healthcare visionaries,
and food service professionals who are making great strides in
the field of culinary medicine. Join me as we continue
to explore the amazing world culinary medicine where I will
empower you to make changes to your health and wellness
with great food right away. Welcome to today's episode. I'm
(01:10):
really excited to be here with doctor Deb Kennedy. She
is a PhD in nutrition and also a chef. Welcome,
doctor Deb. I'm really excited that we're having this conversation
as I read your bio and see all the different
alignments that we have not only with the work that
you do, but also so many different hats that you
wear universities, community settings, and I really really thank you
(01:31):
for being here today to chat food is medicine and
culinary medicine.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Welcome.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I love it when I meet somebody who loves food
as much as I do and loves to get in
the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yes, this is getting ahead, but I love your last
It's like, if you're not finding me doing all the
million hats and I'm wearing, I'm most likely in the
kitchen experimenting or perfecting.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I don't know if one can ever.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Perpect it please. I don't know about you, but the
more stressed I am, it's you know, some people meditate.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
I cook because.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I just think about one thing when I'm cooking and
it's real mindfulness for me and it always has been
ever since I was little, growing up in a stressful family,
that was the one safe, peaceful place, and I love it.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
That is fantastic that you discover that at an early
time in your life.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
That's so good.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
It's funny because I'm totally digressing before even get started.
But I find it so interesting when I talk about
the pillars of wellness and finding that activity that is zen,
and yes, for me it's chopping vegetables, and I realize
for other people that may be the opposite of zen.
So our goal here is to help maybe maybe nudge
a few people over toworth getting in the kitchen and
chopping away.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yes, we've been doing it for a million years, so
you're welcome. Everybody's welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Okay, we're gonna get to business. So food is medicine,
culinary medicine. These terms are buzzing around and I feel
like they are more than they were before, which is
really great.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
And sometimes we can get lust in in the buzzwords.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So I would love for people to understand what is
what is the difference, what is food is medicine?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
And where does culinary medicine fit into that.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Well, I will start by saying in twenty twenty two,
when the Harris Biden administration created that Hunger and Nutrition
and Health Strategy Plan, that's when food is medicine took off.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's there was one physician who had created a book
on it, but no one really knew about it. But
once that started, I mean, it rose. And I was
part of the complementary Alternative medicine in the early nineties
and the same thing happened. It's shot like a rocket, right,
And you know, food is medicine is really I and
I wrote down the official definition from toughs because there's
(03:43):
some nuances in it. So it's food based nutrition interventions
in healthcare intended to treat or prevent disease, centered in
food equity, which I love, with a focus on nutrition security.
So what we tend to see is that food is medicine.
You can't like slice it away from food insecurity. The
(04:05):
two are really inter woven together, and it really is
about providing food education, skill building in the realm of food.
So I like to say, when someone is given a
recommendation or a prescription by their clinician, a dietitian or
(04:26):
a medical doctor. How do you translate that into what
shows up on the plate. That's the culinary medicine piece.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
So the doc says.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
You need to eat more vegetables, what is it you
need to learn to do in your kitchen with your
individual palette, what you've got in your fridge, and your
cultural heritage to have that show up on the plate.
So right now, food is medicine is getting a lot
of attention. Culinary medicine still is kind of within the
medical world. And again it's the same thing we saw
in the nineteen nineties when complementary alternative medicines started. The
(04:58):
docs wanted to learn how to be the act upuncturists
and the herbalists and all that, and then I'll fade away,
and then you'll have people who actually can be the
at the elbow support because clinicians are so busy you
know it as well as I that they aren't going
to be out there in the community with individuals. So
culinary medicine has kind of been pushed to the side.
So I've been really loud about it, because when the
(05:19):
medically tailored meals and food and grocery goes away, if
you haven't taught your patient self efficacy how to make
that meal themselves taste good.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Because it doesn't taste good, they're not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Then you've left them more dependent on the medical system.
And what I love about food is medicine. It's about
taking control of your health in a very foundational way.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
So when you said, you just mentioned that it goes away.
So can you like a medically tailored meal.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Or produce prescriptions? What is it? What do you mean
when you say it goes away?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Right?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So in some states there are a hand like about
a dozen states that actually give medically tailored or medically
supportive meals, groceries and produce. And what the government and
research is asking us to do right now is dose
and duration. So if you come in and you have diabetes,
(06:16):
how long do you need to receive that food for
your hemoglobin A one C to come down? And we
know that happens quick because that's why everyone's studying diabetes
and food is medicine right now, and your blood sugar levels,
how long do we need to do it? And then
when you reach clinical parameters, that food no longer is
(06:38):
being given to you.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
For a lot of people in the healthcare field or
outside the healthcare field.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
This is incredibly confusing.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
And what I have found, and I'd love to hear
your take on this, doctor deb is there's this concrete Okay,
we give a meal, so medically tailored meals. Someone gets
a meal they have to heat up in their house.
Everything has been done for them, and you can measure
like you mentioned the parameter so hemoglobin a once see
that being the measure for diabetes. It's harder to measure
how many meals somebody cooked at home or what ingredients
(07:09):
they may have chosen to cook said meals with. And
in my experience with the work kind of nationwide and
working on advocacy and really pushing things forward, that's been
trickier with culinary medicine is looking at outcomes.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
How do you measure the outcomes.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
So people see that there's a decrease in healthcare costs
in the big picture.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Have you had that experience, Well, yeah, this is all
about So I have a background of value based medicine,
and so you're touching on value based medicine, which is
we're not just looking at the short term effect dropping
in hemoglobin a once see, We're looking at the long
term effect, right, is the patient going to become healthier
and be sustainable when we look at it from you know,
(07:53):
a healthcare standpoint. That's why it's hard for there to
be a cost structure that is sustainable because insurers and
healthcare systems need the money now. They don't want to
wait the year, two years, five years, ten years to
see these billions of dollars of savings. If you look
(08:14):
at the toughs research, I mean, we're talking billions of
dollars of savings. It will happen, It is there, but
they want to see it now. And you know, we
talked a little bit beforehand, and you're a specialist in
lifestyle medicine.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
It doesn't happen just now, you know. And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
And I just want to bring up just a personal story.
So when I was in my doctor program in my twenties,
I was diagnosed with non Hodgkins limb foma and I
was given two weeks to live because there was no
treatment back then. And so I did a bit of
chemo when it didn't work, and then I went and
did holistic complementary alternative medicine and that took years. That
(08:56):
took years. That wasn't a quick fix. And so I
always say to people like your decision to go on
that healing path can take a while, but a lot
of people like to look at it through the western
medical lens of you take a pill and you're better,
and I don't know, you take a Z pack, what
you're going to feel better in about forty eight hours
and it's ten days. But that's not what it's like
(09:16):
when you take ownership over your own health. It is
a choice that you make each and every day. It's
actually two hundred and twenty choices you make each and
every day, and if the majority go towards health, well
that's where you're going.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Thank you for sharing that story.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I am really the word happy is not the right word.
I am thrilled and honored that you are here in
this world to have this conversation, and.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
To think that you were so young.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
I mean, you think of being in your twenties and
all that was in front of you and what you
were faced with, and I commend you for choosing the
enduring path that has that you lived and are here
thriving to talk about, but also being able to then.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Carry that forward in your work. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, I don't want anyone ever to struggle like I did.
I mean I was, I took my doctoral orals. No
one knew more about nutrition than I did. I'm sorry.
The person that knows the most about nutrition is the
person who's just about to get their PhD in nutrition,
and I did. I was a scientist, so I'm like carbs, fat, protein, good, bad.
It was all over the place, and I wished for
(10:20):
someone to be there with me to let me know that, Yes,
after chemo, all I could stomach was tutsuro lollipops and
Pepper's Farm goldfish. But that was just for a couple
of days, and I didn't have to feel guilty about it.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
And you've touched on this a few times. That sense
of the goal is.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
To empower people to be able to do for themselves,
and that skill set takes longer. Yet we do have
outcomes that show it that improves outcomes, and that is
the goal. With culinary medicine and also with lifestyle medicine,
with CAM so complementary and alternative medicine, there's so much
movement towards prevention improvement. When someone has a diagnosis and
(10:59):
someone sometimes even reversal of diseases, which.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Is really good.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
And continuing down the road of who pays for this,
sometimes people think of preventive medicine or complementary ultrar medicine
or lifestyle medicine is something that is only for certain
people that can have that extra income to spend on these.
So how is it playing out? And I realized this
conversation and the answer to this is going to be
(11:25):
very different even six months a year from now. But
how is that playing out with payers? So insurance companies,
medicare medical.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, so up until very recently, there were states that
got what was called the eleven fifteen waiver, which is
a medicaid waiver, and you're allowed to use that those
funds from medicaid to buy the food that you want
to put in medically tailored meals or produce prescriptions or
medically tailored groceries. And it's supposed to be for a
year and you decide whether or not that's efficacious and
(11:56):
feasible and sustainable and all that, and then it's supposed
to go away. And the best I mean, if you
want to look where it's being done really well, look
at Massachusetts.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Now.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
The thing is just because your state has an eleven
fifteen waiver and there are nineteen states that do and
use it. With food is medicine, you have to get
the state to agree. So I'm in Vermont and I'm
almost finishing up a statewide survey of what food is
medicine is happening here. Now we've had an eleven fifteen
waiver for decades, but doesn't mean the money's there. This
state has to pony up and say, okay, you can
(12:26):
use this money from the state to pay so state
pain is one option. In medicine, you have what's called
a shared medical appointment. Now this was known back in
the days of cam right. So you as a physician,
Let's say you're a breast surgeon and you know you're
working with people with breast cancer, and so you invite
(12:49):
ten of your patients in. They're around a table and
there might be an RD there and a chef who
are talking about nutrition education, and the chef's translating that
into what shows up in your plate. And you have
the patient all talking and use the doc pulled one
out one at a time for maybe five minutes, look
at prescriptions and blood pressure and all.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
That that you need to do.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
And then they go back and everybody's around the table
talking about what works and didn't work for them. So
shared medical appointments is another one. We also, my favorite
is the one out of North Carolina. So that is
doctor Lumpkin, who is in charge of the Blue Cross
Blue Shield in North Carolina. And they have what's called
the farm Share, so you have a coordination between the farms,
(13:32):
the community centers, and healthcare. That's the trifecta, right, those
that grow it, and you know, the healthcare provider and
the community based organizations are the one that kind of
combine it all. What he went in and said was, Okay,
who has the most to gain here? I mean, it's
insurers in saving money and still in it's healthcare. So
who should be paying?
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Right now? I'll tell you. In Vermont, we've got farmers.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Who are working like fifty hour weeks because ten of
those hours they're writing great to provide the food for
the clinician to give to his patient, and that's backwards.
So whoever has the most to gain, I say, should
be the ones to pay. So he looked around and
he goes, right, who's already giving food to people in
North Carolina and it was dozens of community based organizations.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
He's like, why don't we fund them?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Because that system's already in place, And so Blue Cross
Blue Shields in North Carolina is paying the community based
organizations to reach out and provide that food, that support
that culinary medicine skill building piece.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
That to me is my favorite because I always look
at who is the most to gain.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
I'm not talking in terms of how them.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
We're just talking finances right now, and it's the organizations
that are are overseen at all, and we already have
a system in place within our communities, but we shouldn't
also put the burden of all the financial burden on
these local not for profits. It's food banks, food shelves,
and that's what we're seeing happening here in Vermont. It's
(15:05):
not sustainable. People will get a CSA, a share you know,
for a season, and then it goes away, and that's
not fair for anybody.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
In this scenario that you are talking about in North Carolina.
That's really great. Like you mentioned this trifecta.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
So then if the community centers are receiving the money,
are they receiving it.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
From the insurers?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yes, okay, the insurers supporting them. So Health Affairs April
twenty twenty five was totally dedicated to food is Medicine
and you definitely want to go pick that up. It's
actually free online. Health Affairs April twenty twenty five. And
(15:48):
so doctor Lumpkin, he has an article in there just
about this. It's the newest, greatest. We're starting to see
trickles of research. You know, what's working, what's not working,
because we have to remember this is a very early
phase development of a whole new system of you call
it medicine.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
I call it connection.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, so we don't know it all, no.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
And I actually I like that you're bringing up the
work because some people don't like the word food is
medicine because you think of medicine, you think of a pill,
or you think of the sterile environment of the healthcare system.
And a lot of this work and where people are
spending their time are in their community setting.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
So bringing people.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
And the resources, so this just sounds absolutely incredible, really
makes a lot of sense. So we're deep diving into
the United States, but of course there are people all
over the world and culinary medicine and food is medicine
is being talked about. And I know, Deb you've had
a lot of many years in your life that you
lived in Canada, so I don't know if you've had
any experience of how this is playing out in a
(16:54):
place like Canada or elsewhere where the healthcare system is different.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yes, So I spoke I'm actually going to speak at
the Canadian Nutrition Society. I actually gave a talk there
on culinary medicine and a thousand people showed up and
I was like, wow, definitely the interest is there. And
then I spoke to an organization and I don't remember
(17:20):
the name of it right now, but in Canada. It's
what I love about how they're looking at it is
they're looking at the different cultures and the essence of
the food in those different cultures and really eating based
on your cultural heritage, and they're looking at it more
about connection to food versus medicine. So I don't think
(17:42):
it's maybe it's food as medicine, but it's like food
as cultural something and I don't remember exactly what it is,
but they reframed it and they're at the very very
beginnings of starting to look into this. So I do
know that there are like the University of Alberta is
part of the Teaching Kitchen Collaborative, so that they're doing
work with that's a CIA Culinary Institute of America and
(18:05):
Harvard can partnership with the Teaching Kitchen Collaborative, so they're
they're providing some research there. So there's a research hub
out in Alberta. But there's there. They're a little bit behind,
but maybe they're forward, right, you know, they're not calling
in medicine, so maybe they're way ahead of us.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Also, I know in in uh United Kingdom, there's a
company called ned pro ne E d Pro and the
physician there he reminds me of you.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
He is he has a rounded black bag.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Of all these wonderful like food and you know, mindfulness
and exercise and all that kind of thing. So he
does a teaching kitchen where and he's in India Africa
coming to the United States where it's called Sea one
Do one and then they go back to their community.
(19:02):
So they'll go for a day of cooking demonstrations. They'll
then the next day do the cooking themselves, and then
they go back to their villages and they will actually
make the healthful food for their villagers. So it's a
way to provide healthful food and it's a way for
community members to make a living. So we see it
(19:24):
happening with different flavors in different countries.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
In medicine, we have you know, see one, do one,
teach one.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
So it's the same concept and I know it too,
Lane at the teaching kitchen at gold Ring, that is
a big piece.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
So the med students are taught how to make.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
These meals, and then community members come and the med
students are the teachers for it. And that's of course
still in the medical setting, yes, with community members and
what you're describing sounds just that much more reality based
and a lot of ways of going into people's own
spaces and homes. And that is one thing that I
(20:05):
hope is coming through in our conversation for our listeners
is that it's not one size fits all.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And I think that's the.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Part that there's such sterility of kind of this rubber
stamp of this is the healthy meal. And I'm doing
kind of air quotes with that and realizing that what
feels like love and home to me and you and
every person who's listening is going to be different. And
I was born and raised in Mexico City, and the
food that feels like love to me, it's gonna be
(20:32):
very different than someone else who grew up in a
different part of Mexico or who moved to different parts
of the country. And to help people be empowered. And
I know this is a lot of the basis of
your work to empower people to then be able to
take that information. So teach the teacher essentially, or I
don't know what term you use for it, but I'm
hearing from you that a lot of it is that
(20:53):
individuality that it really is to help understand the big
pieces and then adding one spices the spice of life
that again will be individual right.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
So you know, COVID really showed the lack of trust
that a lot of what we call the end of
the road, the individuals that live at the end of
the road, they're typically historically underserved, had very little faith
in the medical system. I took a note on that.
But also I'm going to mention the Food Coach Academy
(21:25):
because I've been working on that for six years and
instead of a recipe, I do a master recipe. So,
for instance, build a stew build a taco, build a casada,
build a soup. You choose what type of protein you want,
what type of grain, what type of vegetable, and what
type of herbs and spices. That way, I'm not asking
(21:45):
you to go out and get something you can't afford,
might not like, and are going to end up wasting.
Also for me, I really you know, and I've been
around the block. I've been doing this for like thirty
five years, and it all comes down to that connective piece.
And I know in every community there are leaders, and
(22:06):
if we can train them to go train their neighbors,
that's how we get to the places that we've not
been able to get to in population health. Yeah, and
so I train these food coaches to honor an individual's
decision making. So it's all based on motivational interviewing, which
I'm sure you know about in lifestyle medicine. And when
(22:26):
I started the Weight and Wellness Center at Dartmouth, that
was one of the first things I did. I trained
everyone from the front desk staff to the clinician in
motivational interviewing, and most of our patients cried because they said,
no one ever asked me what I wanted to do.
People I usually I get yelled at because of my weight,
and they were so relieved, and I'm like, check, remember this, that's.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Gold right there. Okay, So if we're going back to
who's paying for this?
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Right?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
So you mentioned your coaching academy. Do you feel like
it's been able to fit into our current healthcare system
or who ends up paying for this?
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Yes, I'm shaking my head.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
No, people not yet, just like health coaches weren't yet.
You know, it took health coaches about thirteen years to
create a certification to allow them to be able to
be billed right, and we're almost there, some of us
are there a little. So I knew it took time,
and I watched what was happening with health coaches, and
I already started working with the American Culinary Federation to
(23:31):
create this certification. If something has to get into medicine,
you know you have to be certified. And if Medicaid
Medicare picks you up, you know your golden and you're
ready to go because you can have insurance base. So
our students come from different walks of life. I have
some that come to me that can't afford it, and
I work with them to identify a local not for
profit to pay for them to come, and I have
(23:53):
and it's wonderful because they can start serving their community
within the first class. They can do some cooking demonstrations
and it is so powerful. So who would end up
paying for them? It would basically be again in that
shared medical visit. You know, that's a way you can
capture several different experts at the table and pay them
(24:14):
at once. It's also philanthropy work. We're not where we
are yet. We're following health coaches and they're not there
yet either, so it's kind of the same trajectory.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I so appreciate your growth mindset, not yet, because we
are moving forward, and I really appreciate that you see
this as a long road. It is so taking these
greater conversations and the empowerment being a piece of it.
So if someone is being discharged from the hospital and
they have congestive heart failure or diabetes, and they do
(24:47):
qualify for a medically tailored meal, and then the goal
then is slowly migrate to where they start making more
decisions on their own and are empowered.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
With the tools to be able to cook for themselves.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
So whether it goes from a medically tailored meal to
then a produce prescription. So for them to know what
is in that box, what is the vegetable, how do
I cook it? How does it fit into my cultural
tastes and taste buds, and ultimately with culinary medicine, to
be able to cook on a regular basis for themselves.
That's what I see as the beautiful spectrum of the movement. Yes,
(25:25):
how about you, deb what is your optimistic outlook?
Speaker 4 (25:28):
Right?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
So, but you are absolutely one hundred percent correct. It
is a movement with a moving target. So our medical
system right now is imploding in and of itself and
that is not news to anybody, right, And how we
can survive as a medical system is huge. That's above
everything else. That's like the background noise. And here comes
(25:51):
this new initiative trying to fit in. But the foundation
is like wobb league because we don't know where the
medical system's going. And you know, it really is is
going to take time. Just like you said about the prescription,
Your healing journey with food will take time, and you
(26:13):
will eat things you love and things that you wish
you didn't have to eat, But you're gonna learn how
to make them tasty, and you're gonna mess up sometimes, right,
And the same thing's happening with culinary medicine and food
is medicine because the voice right now is mostly coming
from a clinical point of view.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
When we look at the.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Progression, So what happens when someone gets on a medically
tailored meal or medically tailored grocery. It starts with the clinician.
It starts with that prescription, and so we look at
that step one. Clinicians need to be trained in nutrition
to know the importance and all of that, so we've
got something to do on step one. It then goes
to the registered dietitian if they need something medically tailored,
(26:57):
because the dietitian is the one in the medical system
who knows how to do that, they're pretty much they
got that covered.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
We don't have to train them in anything new.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
They know how to do that already, and then they'll
pass it off to And what my research shows is
one of several different types of individuals. It'll either go
to the community based organization, or it'll go to a
coordinator within the office, or it goes straight to the farms,
the CSAs and so we see in each part, each
step there needs to be some training. Some of my
(27:26):
farmers are coming in to me saying they come to me,
but they didn't have a talk with their clinician. They're
asking me all these medical questions.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I don't know how to answer them right. And we're learning.
We have to learn each step of the way. But
you can have fun along the journey because I know
we all want to be like better now.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
I want to be better now.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Oh that's the nuance in life, people, I can tell you,
and yes, I want it to be better now right away.
And that's not how it happened. But I have good
stories along the way.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Oh that's good. That's really a good way to start
wrapping up. Now you've mentioned a couple of your hats.
I am holding one of your incredible books here, The
Culinary Medicine from Clinic to Kitchen, and it is an
incredible resource. I know it's one of many of your books.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
So when I was part of the teaching kitchen collaborative
that we've brought up many times, I was the first
person in charge with the first cohort. My job was
director of best Practices, so I was to find out
what curricula already existed, what competencies already existed. There were crickets,
there was little to know. So I asked them at
(28:32):
the time if they wanted to take that on and
I would lead it, and they said no, and they
had so much else going on. So I'm like, Okay,
I'll go do it myself, because that's what a stubborn
iris from and does. I'll go do it myself. So
I gathered forty experts from around the world in nutrition, medicine, dietetics, flavor,
motivational interviewing, mindfulness, all of that, and we came up
(28:56):
with nutrition recommendations and then we bunted it over to
a dozen chefs and said, okay, chefs, the docs are
the experts are saying they need that people need to
eat more fruit. What is it they need to learn
to do in the kitchen? And so together they all
called over twenty five hundred articles. So it's very research based,
and we came up with culinary competencies for nutrition recommendations
(29:20):
and the one that you just went through from clinic
to kitchen, the essential foods, that's the first one, and
then the second one is maximize flavors, and then we
have one called in the Kitchen if you want to
learn how to build a teaching kitchen. The diets and
the basics, The basics, The basics I love because that's
everything from what goes into influencing someone when they eat.
(29:42):
Everything from the music that's played behind you in the
restaurant to did you just exercise? Are you smoking? Are
you male? Are you female? There are so many factors
that go into it, and that's what I love because
I like the science and the art when it comes together.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
So that is I birth those babies.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Let me tell you that was a four year project,
a labor of love, and I just hope people get
as much out of it as I did in my whole.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Team Lucky World, Thank you for your birthing. I can't
imagine what that must have been like. That's many children,
very very quickly, back to back.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
I wanted thirteen, but that didn't work out because of
my cancer. I did end up having two, so I
think big all the time.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
I love it. Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
The TKC just a few weeks ago launched a toolkit
that they've they've birth into the world.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
So I don't know if you take a look at that.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
Yes, I saw that on teaching kitchens. Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
So as we finish up, I'm going to ask you,
so you mentioned the books.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
When you think back to.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
These thirty years and counting of the work that you've done,
what is one that you are incredibly proud of that
you just that you just sit in all your career
years and say, wow. Maybe it could be the books,
but what else other than the books?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
I was listening to a podcast. What would your younger
self say of where you are now? Would she know
that where you are? And to me, while we have
our students going through the Food Coach Academy, I had
somebody reach out who just joined, who was fifty years
of age and had four heart attacks already, and he
wants to do this before he thinks, you know whatever,
(31:30):
and that he wants to give back. This is everything
coming together for me. It's about loving everybody for who
they are and seeing beyond it all and just the
connection piece. It takes my science mind, my medicine mind,
my cooking mind, and my just can't we all get
a long mind? And it came together in the Food
Coach Academy and I didn't realize it till I'm getting
(31:51):
feedback from students and people that they're helping.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
I got there. I wanted to be a.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Clinician like nobody's business, but I I didn't know I
had non Hodgkins lymphoma for ten years before, and I
knew I couldn't stay up for the twenty four hours,
so I'm like, oh, I'll just go get a PhD instead.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
That's easier. Not people.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
But it all led to the place that was supposed
to lead to, where we're healing people through food, through
their ability to heal themselves because they can.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
They can.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I have nothing else to add to those beautiful finishing words.
How can people reach you?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
So my website is probably the best way. Doctor DEEB.
Kennedy dot com. That's Dr dB Kennedy all one word
dot com. And I'm also on LinkedIn. I got a
lot of followers on LinkedIn. I'm very worthy on LinkedIn,
very opinionated. So if you want to hear some of that,
follow me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
This has been really insightful and really a joy to
have this time together.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Thank you, Thank you so much for inviting me. This
was a real treat.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I hope you got as much out of it as
I did. We will be taking a short pause for summer,
and if you missed any of the first or second
season episodes up to this point, it's a great time
to catch up on what you've missed. I hope you
are able to enjoy a pause and a change in
your routine over the summer, and we'll be back with
further episodes. Please leave us a rating and a review,
(33:32):
and mention our show to others who you think could
use this information. That could be your doctor, It could
be somebody who works in the food service industry who's
interested in the health components.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
It could be a friend that is working on their
health journey. If you want to hear more, please remember to.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Follow Culinary Medicine Recipe on your favorite podcast listening platform.
Until next time, Sanud and Bona Pettie. All content provided
our opinions expressed in this up episode art for informational
purposes only and are not a substitute for professional medical advice.
Please take advice from your doctor or other qualified healthcare professional.
When the medically tailored meals and food and grocery goes away.
If you haven't taught your patient self efficacy how to
make that meal themselves taste good. Because it doesn't taste good,
they're not going to do it, then you've left them
more dependent on the medical system. And what I love
about food is medicine. It's about taking control of your
health in a very foundational way.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to Culinary Medicine Recipe. I'm so happy you're here.
I'm your host, doctor Sabrina Falke. I was a primary
care doctor for sixteen years and went to school for
four years to specialize in culinary medicine. In this work,
I get to combine my passionate expertise in both medicine
and food to teach people about food is medicine and
to empower them to understand what ingredients optimize health and
(00:45):
also how to cook those ingredients.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
To make delicious meals.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
On the show, I interviewed top chefs, doctors, healthcare visionaries,
and food service professionals who are making great strides in
the field of culinary medicine. Join me as we continue
to explore the amazing world culinary medicine where I will
empower you to make changes to your health and wellness
with great food right away. Welcome to today's episode. I'm
(01:10):
really excited to be here with doctor Deb Kennedy. She
is a PhD in nutrition and also a chef. Welcome,
doctor Deb. I'm really excited that we're having this conversation
as I read your bio and see all the different
alignments that we have not only with the work that
you do, but also so many different hats that you
wear universities, community settings, and I really really thank you
(01:31):
for being here today to chat food is medicine and
culinary medicine.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Welcome.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I love it when I meet somebody who loves food
as much as I do and loves to get in
the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yes, this is getting ahead, but I love your last
It's like, if you're not finding me doing all the
million hats and I'm wearing, I'm most likely in the
kitchen experimenting or perfecting.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I don't know if one can ever.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Perpect it please. I don't know about you, but the
more stressed I am, it's you know, some people meditate.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
I cook because.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I just think about one thing when I'm cooking and
it's real mindfulness for me and it always has been
ever since I was little, growing up in a stressful family,
that was the one safe, peaceful place, and I love it.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
That is fantastic that you discover that at an early
time in your life.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
That's so good.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
It's funny because I'm totally digressing before even get started.
But I find it so interesting when I talk about
the pillars of wellness and finding that activity that is zen,
and yes, for me it's chopping vegetables, and I realize
for other people that may be the opposite of zen.
So our goal here is to help maybe maybe nudge
a few people over toworth getting in the kitchen and
chopping away.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yes, we've been doing it for a million years, so
you're welcome. Everybody's welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Okay, we're gonna get to business. So food is medicine,
culinary medicine. These terms are buzzing around and I feel
like they are more than they were before, which is
really great.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
And sometimes we can get lust in in the buzzwords.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So I would love for people to understand what is
what is the difference, what is food is medicine?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
And where does culinary medicine fit into that.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Well, I will start by saying in twenty twenty two,
when the Harris Biden administration created that Hunger and Nutrition
and Health Strategy Plan, that's when food is medicine took off.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's there was one physician who had created a book
on it, but no one really knew about it. But
once that started, I mean, it rose. And I was
part of the complementary Alternative medicine in the early nineties
and the same thing happened. It's shot like a rocket, right,
And you know, food is medicine is really I and
I wrote down the official definition from toughs because there's
(03:43):
some nuances in it. So it's food based nutrition interventions
in healthcare intended to treat or prevent disease, centered in
food equity, which I love, with a focus on nutrition security.
So what we tend to see is that food is medicine.
You can't like slice it away from food insecurity. The
(04:05):
two are really inter woven together, and it really is
about providing food education, skill building in the realm of food.
So I like to say, when someone is given a
recommendation or a prescription by their clinician, a dietitian or
(04:26):
a medical doctor. How do you translate that into what
shows up on the plate. That's the culinary medicine piece.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
So the doc says.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
You need to eat more vegetables, what is it you
need to learn to do in your kitchen with your
individual palette, what you've got in your fridge, and your
cultural heritage to have that show up on the plate.
So right now, food is medicine is getting a lot
of attention. Culinary medicine still is kind of within the
medical world. And again it's the same thing we saw
in the nineteen nineties when complementary alternative medicines started. The
(04:58):
docs wanted to learn how to be the act upuncturists
and the herbalists and all that, and then I'll fade away,
and then you'll have people who actually can be the
at the elbow support because clinicians are so busy you
know it as well as I that they aren't going
to be out there in the community with individuals. So
culinary medicine has kind of been pushed to the side.
So I've been really loud about it, because when the
(05:19):
medically tailored meals and food and grocery goes away, if
you haven't taught your patient self efficacy how to make
that meal themselves taste good.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Because it doesn't taste good, they're not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Then you've left them more dependent on the medical system.
And what I love about food is medicine. It's about
taking control of your health in a very foundational way.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
So when you said, you just mentioned that it goes away.
So can you like a medically tailored meal.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Or produce prescriptions? What is it? What do you mean
when you say it goes away?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Right?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So in some states there are a hand like about
a dozen states that actually give medically tailored or medically
supportive meals, groceries and produce. And what the government and
research is asking us to do right now is dose
and duration. So if you come in and you have diabetes,
(06:16):
how long do you need to receive that food for
your hemoglobin A one C to come down? And we
know that happens quick because that's why everyone's studying diabetes
and food is medicine right now, and your blood sugar levels,
how long do we need to do it? And then
when you reach clinical parameters, that food no longer is
(06:38):
being given to you.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
For a lot of people in the healthcare field or
outside the healthcare field.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
This is incredibly confusing.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
And what I have found, and I'd love to hear
your take on this, doctor deb is there's this concrete Okay,
we give a meal, so medically tailored meals. Someone gets
a meal they have to heat up in their house.
Everything has been done for them, and you can measure
like you mentioned the parameter so hemoglobin a once see
that being the measure for diabetes. It's harder to measure
how many meals somebody cooked at home or what ingredients
(07:09):
they may have chosen to cook said meals with. And
in my experience with the work kind of nationwide and
working on advocacy and really pushing things forward, that's been
trickier with culinary medicine is looking at outcomes.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
How do you measure the outcomes.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
So people see that there's a decrease in healthcare costs
in the big picture.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Have you had that experience, Well, yeah, this is all
about So I have a background of value based medicine,
and so you're touching on value based medicine, which is
we're not just looking at the short term effect dropping
in hemoglobin a once see, We're looking at the long
term effect, right, is the patient going to become healthier
and be sustainable when we look at it from you know,
(07:53):
a healthcare standpoint. That's why it's hard for there to
be a cost structure that is sustainable because insurers and
healthcare systems need the money now. They don't want to
wait the year, two years, five years, ten years to
see these billions of dollars of savings. If you look
(08:14):
at the toughs research, I mean, we're talking billions of
dollars of savings. It will happen, It is there, but
they want to see it now. And you know, we
talked a little bit beforehand, and you're a specialist in
lifestyle medicine.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
It doesn't happen just now, you know. And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
And I just want to bring up just a personal story.
So when I was in my doctor program in my twenties,
I was diagnosed with non Hodgkins limb foma and I
was given two weeks to live because there was no
treatment back then. And so I did a bit of
chemo when it didn't work, and then I went and
did holistic complementary alternative medicine and that took years. That
(08:56):
took years. That wasn't a quick fix. And so I
always say to people like your decision to go on
that healing path can take a while, but a lot
of people like to look at it through the western
medical lens of you take a pill and you're better,
and I don't know, you take a Z pack, what
you're going to feel better in about forty eight hours
and it's ten days. But that's not what it's like
(09:16):
when you take ownership over your own health. It is
a choice that you make each and every day. It's
actually two hundred and twenty choices you make each and
every day, and if the majority go towards health, well
that's where you're going.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Thank you for sharing that story.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I am really the word happy is not the right word.
I am thrilled and honored that you are here in
this world to have this conversation, and.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
To think that you were so young.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
I mean, you think of being in your twenties and
all that was in front of you and what you
were faced with, and I commend you for choosing the
enduring path that has that you lived and are here
thriving to talk about, but also being able to then.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Carry that forward in your work. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, I don't want anyone ever to struggle like I did.
I mean I was, I took my doctoral orals. No
one knew more about nutrition than I did. I'm sorry.
The person that knows the most about nutrition is the
person who's just about to get their PhD in nutrition,
and I did. I was a scientist, so I'm like carbs, fat, protein, good, bad.
It was all over the place, and I wished for
(10:20):
someone to be there with me to let me know that, Yes,
after chemo, all I could stomach was tutsuro lollipops and
Pepper's Farm goldfish. But that was just for a couple
of days, and I didn't have to feel guilty about it.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
And you've touched on this a few times. That sense
of the goal is.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
To empower people to be able to do for themselves,
and that skill set takes longer. Yet we do have
outcomes that show it that improves outcomes, and that is
the goal. With culinary medicine and also with lifestyle medicine,
with CAM so complementary and alternative medicine, there's so much
movement towards prevention improvement. When someone has a diagnosis and
(10:59):
someone sometimes even reversal of diseases, which.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Is really good.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
And continuing down the road of who pays for this,
sometimes people think of preventive medicine or complementary ultrar medicine
or lifestyle medicine is something that is only for certain
people that can have that extra income to spend on these.
So how is it playing out? And I realized this
conversation and the answer to this is going to be
(11:25):
very different even six months a year from now. But
how is that playing out with payers? So insurance companies,
medicare medical.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, so up until very recently, there were states that
got what was called the eleven fifteen waiver, which is
a medicaid waiver, and you're allowed to use that those
funds from medicaid to buy the food that you want
to put in medically tailored meals or produce prescriptions or
medically tailored groceries. And it's supposed to be for a
year and you decide whether or not that's efficacious and
(11:56):
feasible and sustainable and all that, and then it's supposed
to go away. And the best I mean, if you
want to look where it's being done really well, look
at Massachusetts.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Now.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
The thing is just because your state has an eleven
fifteen waiver and there are nineteen states that do and
use it. With food is medicine, you have to get
the state to agree. So I'm in Vermont and I'm
almost finishing up a statewide survey of what food is
medicine is happening here. Now we've had an eleven fifteen
waiver for decades, but doesn't mean the money's there. This
state has to pony up and say, okay, you can
(12:26):
use this money from the state to pay so state
pain is one option. In medicine, you have what's called
a shared medical appointment. Now this was known back in
the days of cam right. So you as a physician,
Let's say you're a breast surgeon and you know you're
working with people with breast cancer, and so you invite
(12:49):
ten of your patients in. They're around a table and
there might be an RD there and a chef who
are talking about nutrition education, and the chef's translating that
into what shows up in your plate. And you have
the patient all talking and use the doc pulled one
out one at a time for maybe five minutes, look
at prescriptions and blood pressure and all.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
That that you need to do.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
And then they go back and everybody's around the table
talking about what works and didn't work for them. So
shared medical appointments is another one. We also, my favorite
is the one out of North Carolina. So that is
doctor Lumpkin, who is in charge of the Blue Cross
Blue Shield in North Carolina. And they have what's called
the farm Share, so you have a coordination between the farms,
(13:32):
the community centers, and healthcare. That's the trifecta, right, those
that grow it, and you know, the healthcare provider and
the community based organizations are the one that kind of
combine it all. What he went in and said was, Okay,
who has the most to gain here? I mean, it's
insurers in saving money and still in it's healthcare. So
who should be paying?
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Right now? I'll tell you. In Vermont, we've got farmers.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Who are working like fifty hour weeks because ten of
those hours they're writing great to provide the food for
the clinician to give to his patient, and that's backwards.
So whoever has the most to gain, I say, should
be the ones to pay. So he looked around and
he goes, right, who's already giving food to people in
North Carolina and it was dozens of community based organizations.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
He's like, why don't we fund them?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Because that system's already in place, And so Blue Cross
Blue Shields in North Carolina is paying the community based
organizations to reach out and provide that food, that support
that culinary medicine skill building piece.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
That to me is my favorite because I always look
at who is the most to gain.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
I'm not talking in terms of how them.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
We're just talking finances right now, and it's the organizations
that are are overseen at all, and we already have
a system in place within our communities, but we shouldn't
also put the burden of all the financial burden on
these local not for profits. It's food banks, food shelves,
and that's what we're seeing happening here in Vermont. It's
(15:05):
not sustainable. People will get a CSA, a share you know,
for a season, and then it goes away, and that's
not fair for anybody.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
In this scenario that you are talking about in North Carolina.
That's really great. Like you mentioned this trifecta.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
So then if the community centers are receiving the money,
are they receiving it.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
From the insurers?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yes, okay, the insurers supporting them. So Health Affairs April
twenty twenty five was totally dedicated to food is Medicine
and you definitely want to go pick that up. It's
actually free online. Health Affairs April twenty twenty five. And
(15:48):
so doctor Lumpkin, he has an article in there just
about this. It's the newest, greatest. We're starting to see
trickles of research. You know, what's working, what's not working,
because we have to remember this is a very early
phase development of a whole new system of you call
it medicine.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
I call it connection.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, so we don't know it all, no.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
And I actually I like that you're bringing up the
work because some people don't like the word food is
medicine because you think of medicine, you think of a pill,
or you think of the sterile environment of the healthcare system.
And a lot of this work and where people are
spending their time are in their community setting.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
So bringing people.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
And the resources, so this just sounds absolutely incredible, really
makes a lot of sense. So we're deep diving into
the United States, but of course there are people all
over the world and culinary medicine and food is medicine
is being talked about. And I know, Deb you've had
a lot of many years in your life that you
lived in Canada, so I don't know if you've had
any experience of how this is playing out in a
(16:54):
place like Canada or elsewhere where the healthcare system is different.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yes, So I spoke I'm actually going to speak at
the Canadian Nutrition Society. I actually gave a talk there
on culinary medicine and a thousand people showed up and
I was like, wow, definitely the interest is there. And
then I spoke to an organization and I don't remember
(17:20):
the name of it right now, but in Canada. It's
what I love about how they're looking at it is
they're looking at the different cultures and the essence of
the food in those different cultures and really eating based
on your cultural heritage, and they're looking at it more
about connection to food versus medicine. So I don't think
(17:42):
it's maybe it's food as medicine, but it's like food
as cultural something and I don't remember exactly what it is,
but they reframed it and they're at the very very
beginnings of starting to look into this. So I do
know that there are like the University of Alberta is
part of the Teaching Kitchen Collaborative, so that they're doing
work with that's a CIA Culinary Institute of America and
(18:05):
Harvard can partnership with the Teaching Kitchen Collaborative, so they're
they're providing some research there. So there's a research hub
out in Alberta. But there's there. They're a little bit behind,
but maybe they're forward, right, you know, they're not calling
in medicine, so maybe they're way ahead of us.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Also, I know in in uh United Kingdom, there's a
company called ned pro ne E d Pro and the
physician there he reminds me of you.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
He is he has a rounded black bag.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Of all these wonderful like food and you know, mindfulness
and exercise and all that kind of thing. So he
does a teaching kitchen where and he's in India Africa
coming to the United States where it's called Sea one
Do one and then they go back to their community.
(19:02):
So they'll go for a day of cooking demonstrations. They'll
then the next day do the cooking themselves, and then
they go back to their villages and they will actually
make the healthful food for their villagers. So it's a
way to provide healthful food and it's a way for
community members to make a living. So we see it
(19:24):
happening with different flavors in different countries.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
In medicine, we have you know, see one, do one,
teach one.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
So it's the same concept and I know it too,
Lane at the teaching kitchen at gold Ring, that is
a big piece.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
So the med students are taught how to make.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
These meals, and then community members come and the med
students are the teachers for it. And that's of course
still in the medical setting, yes, with community members and
what you're describing sounds just that much more reality based
and a lot of ways of going into people's own
spaces and homes. And that is one thing that I
(20:05):
hope is coming through in our conversation for our listeners
is that it's not one size fits all.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And I think that's the.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Part that there's such sterility of kind of this rubber
stamp of this is the healthy meal. And I'm doing
kind of air quotes with that and realizing that what
feels like love and home to me and you and
every person who's listening is going to be different. And
I was born and raised in Mexico City, and the
food that feels like love to me, it's gonna be
(20:32):
very different than someone else who grew up in a
different part of Mexico or who moved to different parts
of the country. And to help people be empowered. And
I know this is a lot of the basis of
your work to empower people to then be able to
take that information. So teach the teacher essentially, or I
don't know what term you use for it, but I'm
hearing from you that a lot of it is that
(20:53):
individuality that it really is to help understand the big
pieces and then adding one spices the spice of life
that again will be individual right.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
So you know, COVID really showed the lack of trust
that a lot of what we call the end of
the road, the individuals that live at the end of
the road, they're typically historically underserved, had very little faith
in the medical system. I took a note on that.
But also I'm going to mention the Food Coach Academy
(21:25):
because I've been working on that for six years and
instead of a recipe, I do a master recipe. So,
for instance, build a stew build a taco, build a casada,
build a soup. You choose what type of protein you want,
what type of grain, what type of vegetable, and what
type of herbs and spices. That way, I'm not asking
(21:45):
you to go out and get something you can't afford,
might not like, and are going to end up wasting.
Also for me, I really you know, and I've been
around the block. I've been doing this for like thirty
five years, and it all comes down to that connective piece.
And I know in every community there are leaders, and
(22:06):
if we can train them to go train their neighbors,
that's how we get to the places that we've not
been able to get to in population health. Yeah, and
so I train these food coaches to honor an individual's
decision making. So it's all based on motivational interviewing, which
I'm sure you know about in lifestyle medicine. And when
(22:26):
I started the Weight and Wellness Center at Dartmouth, that
was one of the first things I did. I trained
everyone from the front desk staff to the clinician in
motivational interviewing, and most of our patients cried because they said,
no one ever asked me what I wanted to do.
People I usually I get yelled at because of my weight,
and they were so relieved, and I'm like, check, remember this, that's.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Gold right there. Okay, So if we're going back to
who's paying for this?
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Right?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
So you mentioned your coaching academy. Do you feel like
it's been able to fit into our current healthcare system
or who ends up paying for this?
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Yes, I'm shaking my head.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
No, people not yet, just like health coaches weren't yet.
You know, it took health coaches about thirteen years to
create a certification to allow them to be able to
be billed right, and we're almost there, some of us
are there a little. So I knew it took time,
and I watched what was happening with health coaches, and
I already started working with the American Culinary Federation to
(23:31):
create this certification. If something has to get into medicine,
you know you have to be certified. And if Medicaid
Medicare picks you up, you know your golden and you're
ready to go because you can have insurance base. So
our students come from different walks of life. I have
some that come to me that can't afford it, and
I work with them to identify a local not for
profit to pay for them to come, and I have
(23:53):
and it's wonderful because they can start serving their community
within the first class. They can do some cooking demonstrations
and it is so powerful. So who would end up
paying for them? It would basically be again in that
shared medical visit. You know, that's a way you can
capture several different experts at the table and pay them
(24:14):
at once. It's also philanthropy work. We're not where we
are yet. We're following health coaches and they're not there
yet either, so it's kind of the same trajectory.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I so appreciate your growth mindset, not yet, because we
are moving forward, and I really appreciate that you see
this as a long road. It is so taking these
greater conversations and the empowerment being a piece of it.
So if someone is being discharged from the hospital and
they have congestive heart failure or diabetes, and they do
(24:47):
qualify for a medically tailored meal, and then the goal
then is slowly migrate to where they start making more
decisions on their own and are empowered.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
With the tools to be able to cook for themselves.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
So whether it goes from a medically tailored meal to
then a produce prescription. So for them to know what
is in that box, what is the vegetable, how do
I cook it? How does it fit into my cultural
tastes and taste buds, and ultimately with culinary medicine, to
be able to cook on a regular basis for themselves.
That's what I see as the beautiful spectrum of the movement. Yes,
(25:25):
how about you, deb what is your optimistic outlook?
Speaker 4 (25:28):
Right?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
So, but you are absolutely one hundred percent correct. It
is a movement with a moving target. So our medical
system right now is imploding in and of itself and
that is not news to anybody, right, And how we
can survive as a medical system is huge. That's above
everything else. That's like the background noise. And here comes
(25:51):
this new initiative trying to fit in. But the foundation
is like wobb league because we don't know where the
medical system's going. And you know, it really is is
going to take time. Just like you said about the prescription,
Your healing journey with food will take time, and you
(26:13):
will eat things you love and things that you wish
you didn't have to eat, But you're gonna learn how
to make them tasty, and you're gonna mess up sometimes, right,
And the same thing's happening with culinary medicine and food
is medicine because the voice right now is mostly coming
from a clinical point of view.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
When we look at the.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Progression, So what happens when someone gets on a medically
tailored meal or medically tailored grocery. It starts with the clinician.
It starts with that prescription, and so we look at
that step one. Clinicians need to be trained in nutrition
to know the importance and all of that, so we've
got something to do on step one. It then goes
to the registered dietitian if they need something medically tailored,
(26:57):
because the dietitian is the one in the medical system
who knows how to do that, they're pretty much they
got that covered.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
We don't have to train them in anything new.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
They know how to do that already, and then they'll
pass it off to And what my research shows is
one of several different types of individuals. It'll either go
to the community based organization, or it'll go to a
coordinator within the office, or it goes straight to the farms,
the CSAs and so we see in each part, each
step there needs to be some training. Some of my
(27:26):
farmers are coming in to me saying they come to me,
but they didn't have a talk with their clinician. They're
asking me all these medical questions.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I don't know how to answer them right. And we're learning.
We have to learn each step of the way. But
you can have fun along the journey because I know
we all want to be like better now.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
I want to be better now.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Oh that's the nuance in life, people, I can tell you,
and yes, I want it to be better now right away.
And that's not how it happened. But I have good
stories along the way.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Oh that's good. That's really a good way to start
wrapping up. Now you've mentioned a couple of your hats.
I am holding one of your incredible books here, The
Culinary Medicine from Clinic to Kitchen, and it is an
incredible resource. I know it's one of many of your books.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
So when I was part of the teaching kitchen collaborative
that we've brought up many times, I was the first
person in charge with the first cohort. My job was
director of best Practices, so I was to find out
what curricula already existed, what competencies already existed. There were crickets,
there was little to know. So I asked them at
(28:32):
the time if they wanted to take that on and
I would lead it, and they said no, and they
had so much else going on. So I'm like, Okay,
I'll go do it myself, because that's what a stubborn
iris from and does. I'll go do it myself. So
I gathered forty experts from around the world in nutrition, medicine, dietetics, flavor,
motivational interviewing, mindfulness, all of that, and we came up
(28:56):
with nutrition recommendations and then we bunted it over to
a dozen chefs and said, okay, chefs, the docs are
the experts are saying they need that people need to
eat more fruit. What is it they need to learn
to do in the kitchen? And so together they all
called over twenty five hundred articles. So it's very research based,
and we came up with culinary competencies for nutrition recommendations
(29:20):
and the one that you just went through from clinic
to kitchen, the essential foods, that's the first one, and
then the second one is maximize flavors, and then we
have one called in the Kitchen if you want to
learn how to build a teaching kitchen. The diets and
the basics, The basics, The basics I love because that's
everything from what goes into influencing someone when they eat.
(29:42):
Everything from the music that's played behind you in the
restaurant to did you just exercise? Are you smoking? Are
you male? Are you female? There are so many factors
that go into it, and that's what I love because
I like the science and the art when it comes together.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
So that is I birth those babies.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Let me tell you that was a four year project,
a labor of love, and I just hope people get
as much out of it as I did in my whole.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Team Lucky World, Thank you for your birthing. I can't
imagine what that must have been like. That's many children,
very very quickly, back to back.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
I wanted thirteen, but that didn't work out because of
my cancer. I did end up having two, so I
think big all the time.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
I love it. Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
The TKC just a few weeks ago launched a toolkit
that they've they've birth into the world.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
So I don't know if you take a look at that.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
Yes, I saw that on teaching kitchens. Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
So as we finish up, I'm going to ask you,
so you mentioned the books.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
When you think back to.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
These thirty years and counting of the work that you've done,
what is one that you are incredibly proud of that
you just that you just sit in all your career
years and say, wow. Maybe it could be the books,
but what else other than the books?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
I was listening to a podcast. What would your younger
self say of where you are now? Would she know
that where you are? And to me, while we have
our students going through the Food Coach Academy, I had
somebody reach out who just joined, who was fifty years
of age and had four heart attacks already, and he
wants to do this before he thinks, you know whatever,
(31:30):
and that he wants to give back. This is everything
coming together for me. It's about loving everybody for who
they are and seeing beyond it all and just the
connection piece. It takes my science mind, my medicine mind,
my cooking mind, and my just can't we all get
a long mind? And it came together in the Food
Coach Academy and I didn't realize it till I'm getting
(31:51):
feedback from students and people that they're helping.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
I got there. I wanted to be a.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Clinician like nobody's business, but I I didn't know I
had non Hodgkins lymphoma for ten years before, and I
knew I couldn't stay up for the twenty four hours,
so I'm like, oh, I'll just go get a PhD instead.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
That's easier. Not people.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
But it all led to the place that was supposed
to lead to, where we're healing people through food, through
their ability to heal themselves because they can.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
They can.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I have nothing else to add to those beautiful finishing words.
How can people reach you?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
So my website is probably the best way. Doctor DEEB.
Kennedy dot com. That's Dr dB Kennedy all one word
dot com. And I'm also on LinkedIn. I got a
lot of followers on LinkedIn. I'm very worthy on LinkedIn,
very opinionated. So if you want to hear some of that,
follow me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
This has been really insightful and really a joy to
have this time together.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Thank you, Thank you so much for inviting me. This
was a real treat.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I hope you got as much out of it as
I did. We will be taking a short pause for summer,
and if you missed any of the first or second
season episodes up to this point, it's a great time
to catch up on what you've missed. I hope you
are able to enjoy a pause and a change in
your routine over the summer, and we'll be back with
further episodes. Please leave us a rating and a review,
(33:32):
and mention our show to others who you think could
use this information. That could be your doctor, It could
be somebody who works in the food service industry who's
interested in the health components.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
It could be a friend that is working on their
health journey. If you want to hear more, please remember to.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Follow Culinary Medicine Recipe on your favorite podcast listening platform.
Until next time, Sanud and Bona Pettie. All content provided
our opinions expressed in this up episode art for informational
purposes only and are not a substitute for professional medical advice.
Please take advice from your doctor or other qualified healthcare professional.
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