Episode 404: Something's Wrong With Your Teeth

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Hi, Christina, Hey, Chelsea, how's it going.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
They can go at the end of the podcast. I
could always put them at the end of the podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Because he can, but he do. Listener, you're entering into
the mid conversation.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
We have been talking for ten minutes about about the sea.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
The sea, ye see, but various things.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
But the see things about dangerous jobs, weddings, weddings Australia,
and I'm going to put some of that at the
end of this episode as the bits.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
That's what I do, fair enough, It's what you can do,
it's what I should do more.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Sure, Yeah, that's what I'm I'm done. I have done
at a time.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
In the points in the past. Yes, you have done this, correct?
Hey Christina? Yeah? Chi want to hear a grocery store
cryptid story? Sure? All right, Well who's the cryptid in
this tale? Me? Okay, it was gonna be one of you.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
I was just wondering, which I feel like we haven't
had one of these in a while.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
It's been a hot minute.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
So right after right after we recorded the podcast last week,
Mal and I went to Costco. Okay, oh yeah, we
needed to go to Costco. I was weird traversing because
I don't know listener, I don't know about you. But
when I go to Costco, which Mal thinks is weird,
it's like, even if I have a list, I gotta
go through all the isles.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
No, it's too big, there's too much to look at.
You get lost.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
I gotta go through all the aisles when I go
to Costco. You pick to Costco with me, you understand.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
I mean, I know what you mean. I don't share
the same thought process, but I know what you mean.
I was so.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Artically put to say.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
No, I'm just saying Chelsea. Chelsea is a completionist when
it comes to Costco. My personal shopping habits are direct strikes.
But there are also times when I know my brain
will forget what I need and I need to see
it to remember that I need something.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
And there's been I have, Yeah, there's been occasions when
I'm in Costco and I'm like, oh shit, they have
this thing we need.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
I didn't know that, and then we get it more
money than but it's for what they want. That's how
they get you. But that is how they want.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
So we were or seeing the Costco aisles and like
we get to the coffee aisle, which doesn't really have
a whole lot of things I need, So we're kind
of going down it quickly. There's no one there, and
I don't know what possessed me, but I see this
coffee to the right of me.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Okay, and she says, and I go the flavor out.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
I say, I see the flavor out loud. Now in
my head, I'm thinking I'm just gonna say it so
that mal can hear me. Okay, And then I accidentally
yell in the middle of Costco vanilla no.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
One.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
We don't. People must have heard us, but no, sure,
idnowledge my mistake.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
As soon as I say it, No one's no one's
going to like come at you and yeah, be like,
did you just say vanilla nut real loud? No one's
gonna do that. The thing is, I saw the look.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
In her face.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
She was like, oh no, yeah, I didn't mean to
say it loudly, but I did say it loudly, and.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
I was just like, say it with your chest, pat, Yeah,
go for it.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
So if anyone was in a southern California Costco and
you heard someone yell vanilla no, that was me really loud.
That was Chelsea. Yeah, that was me. That was me,
very good, very good. Yeah, I don't know what possessed
me to do that, you possessed you.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
It's just fair.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
Sometimes the demons come out, you know what I'm saying.
The demons do come out. Sometimes the demons just come
out of you. I say you that the royal you
as in all of humanity.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
Now Mel thinks we gotta get that coffee the next
time we're in Costco.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
I think it'd be funny.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
It probably tastes good. It probably does. It's probably like
vanilla hazel nut. Probably imagine. I think Cinder's asking for permission.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, she's on your lap.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Knowledge sure, I'd given her pets. So I was like,
if you want to hop up more, can There are
only three people in this world that she trusts.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
That's it are the room.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
They are all in this room, right, I got a
cat on my lap. Listeners, But welcome to cold scryptids
and Costco. I was going to say something about where
you said cryptids, that's the second thing we can't do,
could scryptids and cryptids? I was trying to think of
something weny or like word smithy to say about just

(04:31):
violating the social contract. Cold scripts in the social contract,
cold scryptids and the devons that come out of you,
sometimes involuntary shouting something like that. I don't know there's
something in there. I'm not known for words. I think
you words good. Thank you. I appreciate that. I will

(04:52):
say I didn't go to school for it. Nope, I did,
and I'm still bad at it. We're all doing our
best out here. Yeah, We're all just little guys doing
our best. I went to school for words. I have
a words degree. I didn't go to school end of statement. Yep, yeah,
I mean you did.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
You graduated high school and you went to some community college.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Listen, I don't have a diploma in my hand, all right.
I took courses according to the State of California. No
one's come for me yet.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
I I've told you you can go back to school
if you want, and you've said very emphatically, absolutely the
funk not good.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Use the word emphatically.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
And there's times in your life where just like I'm
kind of done. Like it was like when I was
doing my master's degree. Originally I had gone to grad
school with the intent of getting a PhD. And then
after like two years, I was like I physically cannot
do this anymore. Yeah, So I was like, I'm bailing
with the masters. That's it, everybody.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
I got my bail with.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
My bachelor's and then I signed up for community college
to like get a degree, and I don't even know
fucking what I was planning on getting a degree in again,
and I like went to like a month of community
college in San Francisco. My roommate Savannah, who was also
your roommate at different times, I was like, I'm so tired.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
I don't know if I.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
Can do this, and she was like, then why are
you Yeah, you have your bachelor's degree.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
You can't just stop. You can just stop going to school.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
And it was like a really weird moment because I
was twenty two years old and didn't like fathom life
outside of school. Yeah, But then I realized she was right,
and I just dropped all the classes and went, you
know what, I don't need to do this anymore. And
now you're free, and now, well, I still have dreams,
I think all this, will constantly always have dreams about school.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
And then for a while I was a teacher like nightmares.
I thought you were saying aspirations, Oh, I have those too,
but that's beside the point. No, I have night well
nightmares dreams, they're not all nightmares. I don't think all right.
I just when you said I still have dreams, I
thought you meant it like I still dream about going
back one day, where I was like, no, never, I'm good.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yeah, I've considered it a couple of times. There's it's
really funny because I knew a lot of the masters
students in cinema and like all the undergraduates because I
was in the thesis course my last year of school,
and so we got to converse with the graduate students
a lot, and we asked them like, how do you
feel about graduates grad school?

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Like should we go?

Speaker 3 (07:09):
And they're like, the only reason to go to grad
school is if you want to get funding to keep
doing your own films, because then you can just get
loans and do them.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
Other than that, don't do it fair, And we were
all like, okay, fair. I mean, when it comes to
the arts, especially, getting higher education is not necessarily because
it's a it's a very like it's it's a field
where you like a numbers or not numbers letters at
the end of your name don't really help you, Like June,

(07:40):
it's more about your your actionable skill.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, yeah, I boy, Can I touch my ankles?

Speaker 1 (07:48):
You can?

Speaker 2 (07:49):
You damn it?

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Maybe not? I can't. I do not realize that doubt.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, Am I about to stand up and hold on?
If I stand up and touch my ankles? Now, what's
going to happen?

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Well, you're gonna do without an your knees. No one
said I had to do that. I'm doing right now,
right now, okay?

Speaker 2 (08:04):
But if I try? Am I going to get in
and out?

Speaker 4 (08:06):
Later?

Speaker 1 (08:07):
I will give you nothing.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
You successfully touch your ankles without bending your knees.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
Sure, he's getting up, mouth standing. I don't know how
we got here, but we're here. Mouth standing up all right,
No shoulder fade shoulder with the part you're bending at
the waist. The only bend in your knee is the
light bend to not lock your legs. Get limber. He's
limbering up. He's bending down, all right, he's so so close,
Oh so close. He's touching front of legs. Knees are bent, babe,

(08:39):
your touch side touch such sorry wigs? Yeah, keep your knee.
He's extending your knees. He's extended. He's so close. I mean,
I'm going to I'm going to give it to him.
He's he's bending his knees.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
Also, my back is bending that way backwards, like you're
falling backwards.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
We got to you gotta get him against a wall.
I think, are are we just showing off? You're Chelsea,
you're hyper mobile. That doesn't count. Get back in your chair.
I didn't say it was today. Chelsea and Mal welcome
everyone to Cold Scripts and Conspiracies, the podcast where we
don't do this, I promise. The whole time, it.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Was astounding to me as a kid that like everyone
else had such hard times with like putting their hands
around their feet when they're sitting with like. I was
always like, why is this hard for everyone? I don't understand.
And it wasn't until I was like late twenties, early
thirties that someone was that. A doctor was like, hey,
you're hyper mobile, and I'm like, that explains a lot actually,

(09:50):
And then I talked to my mom about it, and
she was like, that explains a lot actually, because she's
also hyper mobile. But it was like, no one ever
gave us the word for it. It also explains apparently,
why I could never do push ups.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Welcome everyone to Cults, Cryptids and Conspiracies, the podcasts where
we talk about cults, cryptids, and conspiracies, and also other
things like religious miscellanea, mysterious happenings, mysterious phenomenon, mysterious insert
thing here.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
This is sort of today is just kind of a
fun topic. It's gonna be a lot of talking.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
Honestly, isn't the whole Isn't that what a podcast is?
It is what a podcast is.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
But unfortunately I was like, I'm gonna do this thing,
and then I looked and I was like, there's not
a whole lot of research on this, but I think
there's a lot to be discussed about it.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Okay, so this is gonna be a shorty, is what
you're saying.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
Probably maybe not, though I still have scientific papers.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
Okay, yeah, all right, yeah, okay, Well we're here at
the beginning. Are you ready to begin your podcat your
your topic? Stay cool out there, everyone, Yeah, they're a
heat wave not here. Weirdly, I'm going to disassociate while
Chelsea talks about the weather. That's it. That was my
only thing. Well, because we're in a heat dome. We
are not in a heat dome. Well, we're not always

(11:05):
The people who listen to this in the future may
not be in a heat dome. That's true. The world
has already ended.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
I found out something today that he disturbs me.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, the world catching fire. I found out something today
that disturbed me.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
Apparently New York is now being reclassified as a tropical
weather zone.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
Isn't that just like the whole country at this point? Maybe?
But I don't like it. That's climate change, baby, I know,
climate change. Baby. I'm going to steer us away from
discussing the weather because you all know how much I
hate it. So we're gonna now go on to Chelsea's
topic for today, but first let's have a brief word
from our sponsors. Christina, Chelsea, Matt Hello told you what

(11:55):
this topic is going to be last week and I forgot,
But can you guess do you remember what your top was?
I was the not dear, the not dear. I did
the not dear.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yes, everyone go to the last week's episode, who was
really funky?

Speaker 1 (12:07):
It was very funky, And I said, hey, this reminds
me of this topic that I want to do, and
you were like, you should do it, and I'm like,
maybe I will. And so today we're doing it.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
Okay, we're talking about the Uncanny Valley, all right, And
there's act. What's really fun about this is I so
I got some scientific papers, mostly psychology papers, and the
whole thing, like this is going to be mostly a
discussion episode more so than like a fully researched episode,
because there just isn't like a whole lot of the
information that I wanted there to be, probably because not

(12:39):
a whole lot of scientists are actually delving deep into
the what if we were all trying to hide from
some kind of not human in our early years? Apparently
that is not a thing that scientists have wrote papers
on that I should.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Well, here's the thing is, how the hell do you
prove that that's fair? Well, and I realized that I was.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
I was looking for these scientific papers.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, that's more like an inner theory than it is.
There's like a game theory, not like an actual psychologist
out there studying.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Would the study of parapsychology be in a similar bucket?

Speaker 1 (13:09):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
I don't think parapsychology would actually come into into this
at all.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
No, I don't mean okay, I don't mean related to
your topic, I mean, just not as scientifically researched.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Well, parapsychology is a field of research.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
Yeah, so it actually there's a lot of information on psychology.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
I thought parapsychology was the one that we're like, but
that's not real.

Speaker 3 (13:28):
I mean, yeah, it's kind of not but it's still
like heavily researched, and there's a lot of papers and
books that we can read about it.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
I see, I see.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Okay, so in this instance, it's more of a thing,
is like, we are speculating about behavior, psychological behavior of
our ancestors who are no longer like here to weigh
in and have left no records talking about their experience.
Because this is like before written language existed.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
I mean even in cave paintings, it's like it's hard
to know they just they did paintings about the rotations
of d in the summers and the changes of the
seasons and all that.

Speaker 3 (14:03):
But what's fun about this topic, and I didn't realize
it until I was doing research on it, is funnily enough.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
It does actually go into me using my degree for.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Knowledge screenwriting, well specifically cinema actually okay, okay, okay, which
is gonna be a fun thing to talk about. But anyway,
so if you don't know, the Uncanny Valley effect is
a hypothesized psychological and esthetic relation between an object's degree
of resemblance to a human being and the emotional response

(14:33):
to the object. Now, the thing is, the official definition
is about a human beings relation to other things that
look like human beings. But we're actually going to go
into it a little bit in this episode where that
actually kind of extends to other things outside of human beings,
including animals and plants.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
Okay, which is fun.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
So the Uncanny Valley hypothesis predicts that an entity appearing
almost human will risk eliciting, earring eerie feelings and viewers.
Examples of the phenomena exist among robotics, three D computer animations,
and lifelike dolls and visuals produced by artificial intelligence. The
increasing prevalence of digital technologies has propagated discussions and citations
of the valley. Such conversation has enhanced the constructs ver

(15:18):
versus similitude.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Fuck your guy who's mostly.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
There, very similitude. No, I think it is very similitude. Okay,
verse I think you're right the first time. Yeah, And
The reason it's called the Uncanny Valley is because there's
literally a chart that they can kind of like tell you, like, okay,
when it resembles a human being this much, This is
how we feel about it.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
This is a This is a qualitative graph, not a
quantitative graph. There's no hard numbers or percentage of hard numbers.
But there has been scientific research done on No, for sure.
I'm just saying that, like, when we're discussing this chart,
it's more of this idea that the value it refers
to is on one axis. There's like human beings positive
response to a thing versus how much like a person

(15:59):
it looks. And the closer you get to a person
looking like a person, the more the better a person's
response to it is up until you get right up
to looks like just like a person. The moment right
before you know this, I'm explaining for the listener's benefit,
the right before you get to this looks just like
a person. There's a big drop off of it looks

(16:22):
almost but not quite like a person, and people don't
like it. It's not close enough, so is the thing. Yeah,
it's actually too close and not close enough.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yes, yeah, because like it's that dip you're just mentioning
is right between those two statements, because the thing.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Is, it's not just a drop off.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
As soon as it gets to a point where it's
almost human, it's a drop off, and then it goes
back up when something starts to resemble things that are
more human like.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
And that's the really uncomfortable feeling.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Well, it's like it's a sense. Yeah, the valley is
that dip. It's that like, if it's almost but not
quite human, we don't like it, yet if it looks
like a person, we like it. Again.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
I think that's why. I don't know if it's necessarily
off topic or not, but the concepts of like elderish
horror like things that look like they're natural but then
suddenly aren't.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Well, that's the whole thing with the not dear Yeah exactly.

Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah, to bring it back around.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
But actually, that is a really good point that you're
making that we're actually gonna bring up great later.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
Wonderful.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
So anyway, if for an example of things that it
seemed to be the uncanny valley, So something I will
tell you right now is what is considered the uncanny
valley actually changes with time because as humans become more
accustomed to things we're we're more and more forgiving of
certain aspects of like digital animation and things like that.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Oh, for sure, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
However, a Pixar movie, Fine, it does look humanoid. We understand,
like inside out this is a human, but it doesn't
look so much like a human that it unsettles us.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
It is very cartoony, stylized. Yes.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
The biggest example I think that keeps getting thrown about
as far as like movies are concerned, is the biggest
example of the uncanny Valley is a movie that came
out in two thousand and four called The Polar Express.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Oh, I thought you were gonna say, BeO Wolf.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
That's my favorite movie.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
You know that it's not your favorite movie, but you
do love it. I know that I do.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Love that movie.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
I thought you were gonna say Beowolf action. I don't
know if you guys have seen the digital Beowolf that
came out creepy. It is creepy. It's creepy, but the
same reason.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
I mean, Pans Labminth is creepy. Similar like Buget Pans Labyrinth.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
It's meant to be creepy. It's meant to Yeah, also
Pans Labyrinth isn't animated, so it's a little bit different.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
And well, again we're gonna get into the Pans Labyrinth.
And also the movie called Smile of It All.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
What is Tom Hanks's fault.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
It's not his fault.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
I'm not saying it's his fault, but the animation at
the time made it so that it's like, you're clearly
trying so hard to appear human, but something is off,
are you saying.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Because it was leaking into like the three D animation
kind of sphere and.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
Think of yeah, and the time of two thousand and four,
and again this is something again that shifts with time.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
But in two.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
Thousand and four, that was the main reason why that
movie didn't actually do that well, is because people felt
it was too close to the Uncanny Valley.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
So it's the teeth. It's the teeth is a lot
of it. They never get the teeth quite right.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
I mean, we're also speaking of nowadays with the AI shoot,
where it's like it just never gets the hands right too.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
For me, because when I also think of on Canny Valley,
I think of a lot of like Triple A video
games where they're trying to do a very hyper realistic style. Again,
they can never get the teeth quite right. Something about
the way that they're rendered where they're like a little
bit too much detail is put on them, but they
still don't look read.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
There was a movie watched, well if I can consume
the video game part, But like, teeth are so interesting
because everyone's teeths are so unique. I feel everyone's jaw
I'm so different. So like Cyberpunk came out as example,
and it had its own issues with technical stuff, but
like the teeth where it was like I also felt
like this looks too good.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
If you guys have either played or know the video
game until Dawn, I was yep, I was about to
bring that up until anybody in that game smiles. I
think they look fine. Yeah, the second anybody in that
game smiles, I'm like, I don't like that. Nope.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, the motion capture is very good. The way that
they're rendered is very realistic, but to the point you
know that it's not real, but it doesn't bother you
up until they show their teeth. Yeah, I'm like, I
don't like tired.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
I don't like that interesting because if it's mo capped,
you'd think that they would then also be mo capping
their job, moving to see.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
But it's the rendering.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
It's the rendering of the teeth, Because the animation itself
is fine. It's the rendering of the teeth itself. And
a lo cap isn't doing that.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
And I think that has to do with the fact
that there is like a primal, instinctual part of us
that does see bearing teeth as potentially like a threat thing, sure,
like the ape part of our brain.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
I was actually gonna say, I think you're right, but
I was actually gonna say, also, the bearing of your
teeth is a common sign of like, I'm friendly and
you're like, I don't know if I trust that you are.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Actually, what's weird is that it's only humans who do that,
only human beings and also dogs because domestic we've domesticated
dogs who view smiling as a positive thing, as this
positive thing. Yeah, yeah, no, we are the only as
far as I'm aware, domestic like humans and domesticated animals
are the only creatures that view bearing teeth in a
smile as a positive thing. Every other species, including species

(21:14):
of apes, views it as a thread. Yes, where did it? Like,
where did this term come? From so.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
It actually was coined in the nineteen seventies by a
man named Masahiro Morey, who was a professor at the
Tokyo Institute of Technology. He was a roboticist, wasn't he possibly?
I mean that makes sense, but everything I have just
as professor fair. Yeah, so probably a roboticist professor or something.
So Maury coined the term uncanny valley to describe his

(21:40):
observation that as a robots appear more human like to
become more appealing, but only up to a certain point.
Upon reaching the uncanny valley, our affinity descends into a
feeling of strangeness, a sense of unease, and a tendency
to be scared or freaked out. The uncanny valley can
be defined as people's negative reaction to certain lifelike robots,
and an example of.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
This actually in media.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
It's actually a lot of stuff from media is gonna
come up today Blade Runner, where they're.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Kind of which one the original?

Speaker 3 (22:11):
Okay, this isn't to say that Blade Runner itself falls
in that uncanny valves.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
That's Spike Lee.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
Nope.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
I need you listeners to know that my wife has
a film degree and I know nothing about film.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
I'm gonna sorry, I have to contend with the fact
that you just asked me if Blade Runner was directed
by Spike Lee, and I'm gonna give myself a second
and then I'm gonna let it go.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Who is the actor Harrison Ford?

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Wait? What what are you thinking thinking of?

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Never mind? I'm like, Harrison Ford's not Black, Like, what
do you mean.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Not Blade Blade Runner? The sci fi one? There's no
vampires and Blade Runner.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
I like Blade Runner.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, he's a good movie because when you ask which
one there are two blades. Yeah, yeah, they made a
new one Ken the new one did have Ken. Yeah,
it did have Ken.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Because I'm just ca Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
Anyway, So there isn't an example of our perception of
the Uncanny Valley and Blade Runner, but the idea of
the replicants and trying to find out who is a
replicant and who is not is definitely within that perception
of what is the Uncanny Valley?

Speaker 1 (23:14):
And like, how do you get past that? Because even the.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
Replicants within the film, I mean, there's a whole debate
on whether or not Harrison Ford's character is a replicant
or not, and they don't answer that by I actually
never saw Blader Oner twenty forty nine, so I don't
know if they answered it in that movie, but there's
a whole thing where it's like, you don't know at
the end of the movie for sure if he is
or not.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
But it's like a huge fucking.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
Debate in media classes, like people have written their theses
on whether or not and I can't remember his fucking name,
Harrison Ford's character is a replicant or not, But anyway, fascinating.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah, I've now remembered the plot of Blade Runner.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
You're welcome. It's come back to him. He's coming back.
The coming back anyway.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
So in the nineteen seventies, where bodicists were trying to
figure out, like, well, how do we the theory was
first posited to the technical community in the nineteen seventies
because they were asking, like, okay, in decades, when we
do have robots, how do we make it so that
they are human like but not reaching that uncanny valley area?

(24:17):
And while the term was not coined until the nineteen seventies, which,
by the way, uncanny valley is a translation of the
original Japanese which I'm not even going to try and
pronounce because I will Butcher it we had this concept
of things that were human, but not before the Uncanny
Valley and its theory was positive to the public. And
the reason I'm saying that is because and this is

(24:38):
where it was fun that I got to use my
film degree. Is one of the first instances that we
know of people kind of perceiving this idea of the
Uncanny Valley, just not having a word for it. Was
actually when film went from moving pictures to sound interesting
because the way people and this wasn't so much a

(24:58):
site thing as it was an audible thing. But it's
still kind of the same idea. The sound of people
in films, especially like early films with sound, was very
different sounding. I keep saying that word a lot, and
I'm sorry, than a human being talking to you in
real life. Oh sure, yeah, so, and that really fucked

(25:19):
with people's perception of what was real and what was not.
I mean, film in general has actually always fucked with
people's perception of what is sometimes on purpose. There's the
infamous example of when moving pictures was first introduced to
the public. There is the short film of the Train
and when it was first being presented to people, like
when the train was coming at them. People would duck

(25:40):
in the audience because they had never seen something like
that before.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Well, I honestly don't think that that phenomenon is much
different now to the jump scare phenomenon in film. Yes,
I think it's the same. Concept, is the primal part
of our brain. Yeah, there's a level of buy in.
There's a level of immersion that people have for film
because it is like you are watching events happen in
front of you, regardless of the realism, and that will

(26:06):
hijack certain responses.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, I mean, the human brain is geared to have
responses and behavioral patterns based on stimuli, and with those
being replicated in film, it's completely understandable how that happens.
Like the spine tingling effect in horror films. Yeah, if you,
you know, make a film really well, I'm trying to
get a point across. You can create fear in your audience.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
But the example of when we first got moving pictures
and then when we first got talking pictures, the example
is that in that instance it was not intentional, and
it was because the public was not used to things
like that, and their public perception was trying to get
used to that being a normal thing.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
I wonder did things change them when we started doing
surround sound too.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
I don't know, actually, because theaters always kind of had
surround sound.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Oh yeah, because they had like speakers on all the walls. Yeah,
So I don't know if that's not exactly surround sound
as we know it today.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
But that wasn't a thing that came up. It was
really sort of it was. There were three points in
particular that came up in the discussion of the Uncannon Valley,
and one was, you know, moving pictures being introduced, so
movies actually being introduced audio in film that wasn't just
music being introduced, so talkies is the old term for them.

(27:18):
And then the next instance, so the Uncanny Valley was
presented in the nineteen seventies, it was used as a
robotics thing, and it was also used to kind of like,
like I said, Blade Runner came out and it was
sort of playing off of that, you know, what is
a replicant and what isn't, like that sort of Uncanny
Valley thing of like what is human and what is not.
But one of the first instances of it being unintentionally
done in a film is a nineteen eighty eight short

(27:40):
film that was I think the first thing Picks Are
ever made, and it was about an infant baby, and
people were very unsettled by this infant baby.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
You know what you're talking about. Yes, that baby's creepy.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yes, because it's an Uncanny Valley. And now we look
at it and we still kind of think it's creepy,
but we're also looking at it as like, Wow, that's
really shitty animation.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Which, for the time though had never been done before.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Essentially, does that mean our perception of the Uncanny Valley
is being warped because of animation.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
Our perception of the Uncannon Valley is being warped because
of the advancements of technology.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
I would say that it's being warped because of familiarity. Yes,
because the whole part of the Uncanny Valley is that
it is something that is supposed to be familiar but
is not. And the more familiar become with it, the
less it bothers you. I would actually like to argue,
and I know this probably isn't backed up by any
actual research that has been done, but it is something
that I was discussing with my therapist actually, because this

(28:34):
is the phenomenon that I experienced, and I think that
likely other people experience it as well. Where I can
find photographs to be uncanny because it is a person.
The longer that I look at a picture, the more
uncanny I find it because the person is not moving.
I find the absolute stillness of an image of a
person to be kind of uncanny, because in real life

(28:58):
people aren't that still. Do you think it also has
something to do with the fact that you don't create
images in your head. Possibly I can't speak on that. Yeah,
I mean that's very possible.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
I will say I can totally see that being a thing.
But also when Apple Photos did that thing, we could
put your finger on it and then it moved because
Apple Photos take a couple of seconds. That creeped me
the fuck out.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
I mean, that's that's very fair too. But what I
want to say is I think that the experience of
the uncanny Valley actually goes back even further than like
that idea of sound being introduced into photos. I think
it even goes back before the idea of moving pictures.
I think it is introduced at first with the concept
of pictures, probably not even at first, because there's a

(29:38):
whole idea that cultural idea that people had that taking
a photo is going to steal part of your soul. Yes,
that speaks to this idea that people found something disturbing
about photographs and to begin with.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
And that wasn't just one culture. That was like across
the globe, a lot of different cultures were like, I
don't like that.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
And I think that part. I think that I'm probably
not alone in that feeling that the longer you look
at an image, the less familiar it becomes, because in
real life, like a real living person is never that
still for that long.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Or also like our visions and our memories of people
change as we actually also grow older and get to
know people like.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
That, I would know about that.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Okay, I've known Chelsea for like eight years, and if
I saw a picture of her from eight years ago,
like I could look at one of the first pictures
I saw we were dating, I'd be like, I know
that's my wife, but that's definitely not my wife today.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
That's not the person I know.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
That's not the person I know today.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Again, as we have had the technology of photographs for
so long, the concept of it is so familiar to
the point where we don't worry about it as much,
and yes, that whole idea of like graphics and special
effects and things aging, well like we view it as
less and less actually human like. The more familiar and
the more advanced the replication of human like appearance becomes. Yeah,

(30:54):
so it's it's up. I think exactly what Chelsea was
saying is like the older that something gets, the more
advanced our technology gets to replicating a human like appearance.
In contrast, the old stuff looks super far away from
person line. It doesn't bother us as much, or even
maybe it does just because it's I think it bothers.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Us in a different way now, because it's like, eugh,
that's weird, that's creepy, but not like I'm alarmed and
afraid of this creature. It's more like, eh, that doesn't
look good.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
Yeah, which is still actually considered that same kind of feeling.
But I don't know if it's necessarily the Uncanne Valley
because at the point you're mentioning, it's like it, yeah,
it no longer is close to human.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
So, In his seminal essay for Japanese journal Energy, Morey wrote,
I've noticed that in climbing toward the goal of making
robots up pure human. Our affinity for them increases until
we come to a valley, which I call the uncanny Valley.
One might say that the prosthetic hand has achieved a
degree of resemblance to the human form, perhaps on a
par with false teeth. However, when we realize the hand,
which at first site looked real, is in fact artificial,

(31:58):
we experience an eerie sensation. For example, we could be
startled during a handshake by its limp, boneless gript together
with its texture and coldness. When this happens, we lose
our sense of affinity and the hand becomes uncanny. In
another interview with I EE Spectrum, Morey explained how he
came up with the idea for the Uncanny Valley.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
Since I was a.

Speaker 3 (32:17):
Child, I have never looked I have never liked looking
at wax figures. They looked somewhat creepy to me. At
the time, electric electronic prosthetic hands were being developed, and
they triggered in me some kind of sensation. These experiences
had made me start thinking about robots in general, which
led me to write the essay. The Uncanny Valley was
my intuition. It was one of my ideas.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
I was actually going to bring up wax figures in
that same vein of a thing that looks like a person,
but it is too still. Yeah, and also there is
probably a phenomenon that people have also noticed. If you've
ever been to a wax museum, pictures of wax figures
look better than they do in real life. Again, I've
never been to a wax museum because it doesn't interest me.
That's fair. I've been to like a Madame Tussaud's kin

(32:56):
and vibe.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Could you move that image ever screens? So stop freaking
me the fuck out. She has an image that definitely
replicates the feeling of Uncanny Valley, and I was just like,
dear God, make it stop a picture.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
Oh yeah, I know I've seen that. Again. I have
to bring this up because I have a degree in robotics,
So this is a really fun convergence of both of
our degrees. This is something that I have a lot
of education about. Actually hit us Yeah but no, but
Chelsea's the one leading discussion, and she's hitting all the points,
hi jacket. But it's it's that thing of like again,

(33:30):
the thing that is different is the stillness, the unnatural
behavior of the thing and when you remove that unnatural
like if you take a picture of a wax figure,
it doesn't look as freaky as it does an actual
real life Is the vibe interesting? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (33:43):
That makes me wonder if the mo sorry, I'm just
thinking of tangential stuff. Was the movie was the movie
I Robot and Uncanny Valley effects?

Speaker 1 (33:49):
No, because the robots and I Robot didn't look like people. No,
they very much did not look like yea, even though
they had like a face. They were humanoid, but they
were not in tended to be mimicking.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
People, gotcha? Okay, okay, And that's where the rub is.
If it's something that's intending to be human, yes, but isn't.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
So Actually a better example which is not an example
I saw anywhere, which I was surprised at. But if
you have seen the movie Rogue One, Peter Cushing is dead,
has been dead for a while, but his character needed
to be alive in Rogue One because he doesn't die
until the first death star blows up, and so it
was actually both him and they did the same thing

(34:30):
for Carrie Fisher Princess Leah, where they had a stand
in and then animated over it. I thought the Princess
Leia One looked actually really good, that Peter, And it's
possible that Peter crushing it was just because he was
on screen for so long, but a lot of people
were like, the longer I look at him.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
The weirder I feel about it. He was stiff, yes.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
But not in the old man kind of way you
to expect because he was an old man.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
It was weird. Yeah, which again I think that a
large a large like, uh, what makes it so uncanny
is about movement largely. Yes, there is a certain amount
of appearance that we can forgive, but when something does
not move as a human being is like normally moves,

(35:16):
then that will like make us feel weird.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
There is also the thing with because specifically with General Tarkin,
he is existing in a space where everyone else around
him is human like.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
So in contrast, is more obvious. Yes, so there's that.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
So there was this really interesting example which is not
something I'd ever heard of before, but apparently it's like the.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
First Shrek movie they they started doing. I know, I'm
just sla I'm smiled about Shrek. Please continue, I'm here.
I don't know about that.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
I don't know about that away from capitalism.

Speaker 1 (35:59):
God please continue shows.

Speaker 3 (36:01):
Anyway, So they did a test screening of the first
Shrek movie and they actually had to rework it because
children were afraid of the original Fiona animation. It was
too uncanny Valley, and like that actually prompted them to
do more. Like a lot of movies now do a
lot more test screenings than they used to do in
times previous. For some, I think it's to a detriment,

(36:23):
like for example, changing the ending of I Am Legend
made the movie suck more.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
But you know, sometimes it does work in our favor.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
So like, for example, the original test screening of the
pilot of bobs Burger's, originally the whole family was supposed
to be cannibals, and then the producers were like, hey,
why yeah, so anyway, but yeah, the original test screenings
of Shrek actually terrified children because they didn't like how
uncanny Fiona looked in the film. And things like that

(36:57):
has been very common with animation. As animation has we
have gotten things like the two thousand and four Polar
Express And I'm so sorry now that I keep picking
on it. It's just the biggest example. Actually another example
was like them, I know There was another movie in
two thousand and one that was like a Final Fantasy
movie that apparently is also a big.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Exam Advan Children one hundred percent. I watch that when
it came out. I love Final Fantasy. I watch Advent
Children one hundred percent. It is on Candy Valley because
they are doing the similar thing of the hypo hyper
photorealistic rendering of the characters. Yet the characters are still
like anime stylized, so they don't look right. Yeah, and

(37:37):
the way that they move and the proportions of their
face are not quite right to a normal human face,
and so it just it doesn't look right. And there
are times when you are immersed in it, and then
there are times when it is jarringly, like a little
thing will happen that will throw you out of the
immersion completely and it feels very jarring. Advant children still

(37:57):
slap though.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
So it's a study that has been done originally and
still to this day is being done tech in tech
companies where they're trying to develop actual robots, and that's
actually one of the reasons why, like, for example, the
Honda robot which I can't remember its.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Name asmo Ya asthmo doesn't look like a human at all. No, they.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
Product tested that shit and they were like, you know what,
we don't need this to look like a human whereas
other Okay, and then there was this example that I
had never heard of, and I fucking hated it. Someone
at a robotics convention somewhere decided to make a life
like robot of Philip K. Dick, and I'm like, Okay,
there's layers to this. Yeah, there's layers to you deciding

(38:39):
to do this. For those of you who don't know
out there, Philip K. Dick is the original writer of
Do Androids Dream of Electric Cheap, which is what Blade
Runner is based off of.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah, it's there's a lot of layers there, for sure.
It's like, do you think he would endorse this? Yeah?
I think.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
The funniest part about this, however, is that so a
lot of people who went and saw the Philip K.
Dick robot and conversed with it, because that was its
whole deal, as it was supposed to be like kind
of an AI thing that could converse with you, would
take pictures of it and be like, this was the
creepiest thing I've ever seen. And then apparently it was stolen.
Oh okay, And so one person posted on social media

(39:16):
that they heard that it had been stolen and that
they hope it's not coming to get them later because
he had had an interaction with him. Yeah, so, which
also leads to the whole thing of like part of
the uncanny valley is also our fascination with dolls, which
was really funny because the video I watched actually referenced
American girl dolls as being that uncanny valley, and I
fucking loved American girl dolls as a kid.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
I would still have my American girl dolls. I think
it's a familiarity thing again, where they are now familiar
enough that we are used to how they look and
we don't perceive them as trying to look exactly human anymore. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah, but in a sense something you mentioned earlier about horror,
actually a lot of horror movie directors and writers have
actually decided to take this concept of the uncannon valley
and manipula so that people who are watching their films
get that uncanny, like that unsettling sense.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
The sense of unsettled is I think a way better
like bar for horror than just jump scared.

Speaker 3 (40:13):
I prefer it to jump scares, because jump scares feel
cheap to me.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Also, gore is also not scary either.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
In my mind.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
Now, gore horror is like a different feeling to me.
It's like Final Destination is like, it's not scary to me.
It's just like.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
It's a shock.

Speaker 3 (40:27):
I mean, it's also like Final Destination is sort of
in that area of like the screen franchise where it's
sort of satire also, but anyway, one of the best
examples recently of a use of the uncanny valley in
a horror film is a film.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
There are two films, one Smile.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
And Smile Too, where it's a horror film where it's
literally like the horror aspect of it is there's like
I haven't seen them, but I know about them, and
I've seen the second one. Okay, so correct me if
I am wrong. But it's essentially like this psychological disease
essentially that someone smiles at you and power.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Oh no, it's literally a demon. Oh it's a demon.
It's literally a demon. The premise of Smile is that
there is a demon that can travel disease, Like what
happens is you witness somebody who is possessed by the
demon who has killed themselves, and then by you witnessing
this person die, the demon jumps into you, okay, and
then it warps your perception of reality with the intention

(41:22):
of trying to get you to kill yourself in front
of someone else so that it can spread in a
parasitic kind of way. Geez, that makes me think of
that happening too. Uh yeah, in a sense, but it's
it's more psychological. It's more psychological because it's literally it's
literally about like how your perception of reality is altered

(41:43):
by this thing. And the purpose of the movies is
to make you question what is actually happening, yes, because
you are often seeing things from the perspective of the
possessed person, and that makes you you have to literally
take everything that's happening with a grain of salt, because
some of the events are not actually true. And one

(42:04):
of the main things that I think that you're getting
at is that when someone is infected, quote unquote, when
they are possessed, the way that they look to other people.
And there's a great example of this because I can
speak on because I saw a smile too. I didn't
see the first one. But you don't need to. Apparently
the second one is better. I like the second one.
Oh yeah, it was really long, but I liked it still.

(42:26):
I thought it was effective.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
We're finally getting more of those psychological horror movies, and
I really appreciate it because for a while there we
were stuck in the like jump Scare.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
I to very heavily leans on Jump Scare. Still really interesting,
very much so. And there also is a lot of
like Gore, and there also is a lot of body
horror like It's It's pretty broad across the genres there,
I would say. But one of the main things that
occurs in the movie is at the beginning of it,
there is a man who is possessed and the woman

(42:53):
who later becomes possessed sees him kill himself. But right
before when he's fully possessed by the demon, he gets
this really broad smile that looks unnatural. It looks like
I don't know if they actually use CGI to change
the appearance of it at all I've seen it. I
think they'd have to. I mean, I'm not sure because

(43:14):
it is just a very broad like because.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
It definitely looks stretched beyond what the human face should be.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
Cap Yeah, it's not a natural smile. It's it's something
that if you're doing it, it would have to be
a very like. This is non an actual like natural
expression a person would make. This is an intentional expression,
and it's meant to look like a smile, but it
is not a happy.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Expression again to make someone disarmed or like you were saying,
the other opposite effect is that had the effect on
the people of I now and feel threatened because someone
just bare their teeth of me sort of.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
It's yeah, it's it's it appears to be like a
cruel smile because the intention in universe is that this
is the demon who is one, and so they are
smiling in victory, and it is not a happy expression.
For it's like it's not like a haha, we're happy.
It's like, ohh I'm happy because I'm about to do
a violence to you a gas exactly. But from a

(44:06):
narrative perspective, from a meta perspective, the unnatural appearance of
the expression makes it more unsettling for the viewer, which
I think is what Chelsea was getting at.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Yes, and so that's the thing that that horror has
actually capital yeah, capitalized upon, especially with more recent horror
especially since, like I would say, since this paper came
out apparently it was nineteen seventy eight, is when the
paper from I know Morey's is this last time? I
just want to make sure, Yeah, massa hero, Maury. This
phenomena is something that roboticists have been obviously taking into

(44:40):
account and studying at least since nineteen seventy eight, but
it's also something that has been studied in film programs now,
especially since animation has become such a huge medium.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
Computer animation specifically.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
Has become such a huge medium. And one of the
things that one of the YouTube videos which I'll give
you all my st this is at the end of
this one of the youtubvity as we're talking about how
animation students Now, there's this one school and I can't
remember which one, probably cal Arts.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
That's where all the Pixar people come from. But they when.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
They're doing their animation classes, one of the things they
do is like you have to pick an animal out
of a hat and animate it. And they're saying that like,
if you are someone who picks like a dog or
a cat, you're actually at a disadvantage because people see
dogs and cats every day and know how they're supposed
to act and know how they're supposed to move, and
so it's harder for you to replicate that to a

(45:33):
sense that doesn't put you in that uncanny valley. So
this isn't just something that we see as human to human.
This is also something that we've been perceiving in animals
and also plants. So this is where the conspiracy part's
gonna come in. Okay a little bit, Christina, Yeah, you
know what a stealth tower is, right?

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Is that those cell phone towers that are mental leg trees? Yep? Okay, yes,
I know what those are.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
There's one in the four or five I think of
every time in our past. I'm just like, that's not
a tree.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
So this article's pretty short, so I'm just gonna read
it in full Oka And it's called the Conspiracy Tree
Tower by Jeremy Markovich.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Out there along Interstate forty.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
Five between Rhya and Providence Roads, a cell tower is
described as a tree. It's not fooling anyone. At one
hundred and seventy five feet tall, it's much taller than
the real trees surrounding it. It's spindley branches just out
of a gray metal trunk. It sticks out like a
freshman at a college Keger. In mid September, a post
on a website called Daily Paul, which overtly messaged mentions
that has nothing to do with Ron Paul, showed a

(46:30):
picture of a tower tree with the headline I have
uncovered something mysterious about a tree calm tower in Charlotte.
The tower, it seems, was nefarious for the past few months.
I believe this was a cell phone tower, the blogger said.
I now have a growing suspicion on this tower, as
you will come to see.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Why go on.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
The owner of the tower mysteriously stopped responding to emails,
the blogger wrote, and the tower doesn't seem to show
up on tower mapping websites.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
It just so happens. The post continued that there are
reports of rogue towers popping up.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
Those same reports say those rogue towers are designed for
the government or police or someone to snag data from
your phone as you unsuspectedly.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Drive by the kicker. It's obvious this is not a
real tree, the blog reported.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
The tone you just had, It's obvious this is not
a real tree.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
They're not trying to make it look like okay. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
Not long after that post went up, a guy who's
a contributor to Infoworlds dot com InfoWars dot com, a
tinfoil had of a website with a high production values,
made a YouTube video about the blog and the tower.
This article, by the way, it was written in twenty fourteen.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Can I I'll just put the Alex Jones class it
in right here there. Yeah, I'll admit it. I will
eat my neighbors.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
I'll do it.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
I'm starting to think about having to eat my neighbors.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
The video drew more than sixty thousand views. I had
to get to the bottom of this. I had to
know what they don't want you to know. So I
reached in deep into my journalistic toolbox and made one
phone call. That's all it took to uncover the truth.
The cell phone tower that looks like a tree, it's
a cell phone tower that looks like a tree.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
Bonnie Newell, who runs the Berkeley Groups as her company,
built the tower in twenty thirteen. It's now owned by
Crowncastle International. AT and T is the only company that
leases equipment on it. And it kind of resembles a
long leaf pine because Weirdly, Charlotte's zoning rules say that
if you build a cell tower within four hundred feet
of a neighborhood, it has to be a stealth tower
that blends in with the natural environment. One way to

(48:19):
make it stealthy stick a freight stick a bunch of
fake branches on it. If you look at public records,
I told her, the word stealth is on it.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Yes, it absolutely is, she replied, And then it dawned
in her that perhaps some people are misinterpreting the word stealth. Oh,
she said.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Bonnie said she's responded to everyone who's contacted her. When
I first called her, she didn't know why she was
getting strange emails and phone calls. I told her about
the Info Wars video, and she gasped. She had no idea.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
Can we block that? She asked.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
It's like one day the Internet wakes up and points
at you and says, hey, you're up. Bonnie hasn't been overwhelmed,
but each nervous demand to prove that she's not in
cahoots with the wrong people is worrisome.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
It's given me a lot of stress. She told me.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
I don't like getting random emails of one or two
sentences saying what are you doing. Bonnie's fallen victim to
the new culture of first post, first at, asked questions later.
There's just enough information out there to get part of
the story via Google. But we expect answers to everything now,
and when we don't get them now, it feels like
someone doesn't want us to have the answers now, so
then the public finishes the story for us.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
This seems strange. What is it.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
I'm not saying it's part of a massive secret government plot,
but I'm not saying it's not. The small vacuum of
information quickly fills with speculation. That's how conspiracy theories get started,
and that's why Bonnie gets weird emails.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
In the middle of the night.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
I had to see the evidence. I met Bonnie under
the fake tree among the real long leaf pines. She
started pointing at things. There's an AT and T lock
next to an AT and T sign labeling this as
an AT and T tower.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
She said, there, it is.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
All in the open, all available to you if you
leave the Internet for a while and go out and
see things for yourself.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
That's such a way to say, touch grass, touch grass,
touch real tree. Yeah, it is the freeze Stealth tree
very much is stealth in the same way that Disney
paints their fences a certain shade of green so you
kind of glaze over them. Yes, because it's like the
point is not to be an I sore versus for
you to actually not know what was there.

Speaker 3 (50:13):
But it's another one of those things where the reason
this came up in a discussion about the Uncanny Valley,
it's another one of those things where it's like, it
feels like you're trying to hide this from us by
like making it look like something that it clearly does
not look like. I get that, which I don't agree with,
but that is where the conspiracy comes from, and that
is why it was brought up in conjuncture with the

(50:33):
Uncanny Valley.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
I think that the Uncanny Valley is a con I
understand what you're saying. I think that is fair, and
I think that the point that you're making, where it's
like the Uncanny Valley applies to more than just humans,
is a good one. It is true the Uncanny Valley,
to me, as a phenomenon, very much feels like a
tool that can be unintentionally done or can be intentionally
done in the purpose is like too unnerve. But generally speaking,

(50:59):
most people who are delving into the Uncanny Valley are
doing so unintentionally. They are trying to be on the
other side of it, but they can't make it the
whole way, and they land in the valley. Yeah. So
like when it comes to sure, I don't know for me,
the stealth towers are so far from actual tree, like

(51:20):
this can't be like, no one's being fooled by this. Yeah,
So it doesn't seem nefarious because it's like, if it
was actually something you were trying hard to hide, you
would have done a better job.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
I agree with you, but I think it's interesting that
this came up in a discussion about the Uncannon Valley,
as in saying like, look, it doesn't necessarily all apply
just to humans, where because people are applying It's like,
it's not necessarily that it is an Uncanny Valley thing,
it's that people are kind of applying those same principles
to something else. Yeah, no, for sure, and creating conspiracies
based upon it.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
The human mind likes patterns, yeah, And also that's the
problem with the Uncanny Valley is because we like patterns
and when something doesn't fit, we freak out about it.
Yeah yeah so.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
In a series of experiments reported in the Journal of Neuroscience,
neuroscientists and psychologists in the UK and Germany have identified
mechanisms within the brain that they say help explain how
the uncanny value occurs and may even suggest ways to
help developers improve how people responded. For a neuroscientist, the
uncanny value is an interesting phenomena, explains I'm so sorry

(52:18):
to Germans doctor Fabian Gravenhorschtd. I'm so sorry to all
of Germany, a Sir Henry Dale Fellow and lecturer in
the Department of Psychology, Physiology, Development and Neuroscience at the
University of Cambridge. It implies a neural mechanism that first
judges how close a given sensory input, such as the
image of a robot, lies to the boundary of what

(52:38):
we perceive as a human or non human agent. This
information would then be used by a separate valuation system
to determine the agent's like ability. To investigate these mechanisms,
the researchers studied brain patterns and twenty one healthy individuals
doing two different tests using functional magnetic resonance imaging fMRI,
which measures changes in blood flow within the brain as
a proxy for how active different regions are are. In

(53:01):
the first test, participants were shown a number of images
that included humans, artificial humans, android robots, human eyd robots,
and mechanoid robots, and were asked to rate them in
terms of likability and human likeness. Then, in a second test,
the participants were asked to decide which of these agents
they would trust to select a personal gift for them,
a gift that a human would like. Here, the researchers
found that participants generally prefer gifts from humans or from

(53:23):
the more human like artificial agents, except those that were
closest to the human non human boundary and keeping with
the Uncanny Valley phenomena.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
By measuring brain.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Activity during these tasks, the researchers were able to identify
which brain regions were involved in creating the sense of
the Uncanny Valley. They trace this back to brain circuits
that are important in processing and evaluating social cues, such
as facial expressions. Some of the brain areas close to
the visual cortex, which deciphers visual images, tracked how human
like the images were by changing their activity. The more human,

(53:52):
like an artificial agent became in a sense creating a
spectrum of human likeness. So so while I came into
this top with the preconceived notion of like, the thing
I wanted to research is if there had been any
studies done on like was there like a human but
not human like ancestor of ours that hunted us down
or not necessarily ancestor, but like something that existed with us.

(54:14):
And obviously I didn't find any papers on that because
that's not something you can scientific scientifically actually try and research.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
You can try, it's just I feel like it'd be
really hard.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
Yeah, But something we can do is we could research
where in the mind you are actually like getting these
neurons firing off. And I thought it was really interesting
and it actually makes a lot of sense now that
the part that the uncanning valley kind of enters in
your brain is the same part that tries to decipher
like human like what emotion you're trying to perceive to
me on your face, Like yeah, social cues that you're

(54:45):
trying to process, which in turn actually makes me very
interested in like people with uh autism or ADHD who
do sometimes have issues processing people's emotions based on what's
on their face. I'm wondering how their reaction to the
Uncanny Valley is. But there have been no studies based
on that.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
But I would actually be really interested in is people
have face blindness and their perception if they experience any
kind of uncandy valley.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
We'll just walk into an alley and be like, oh,
puppy and it kills them.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
That's a that's a different thing. No, I know, Like, Okay,
one thing I did learn recently about people with face
blindness is that it also applies to cars. Huh. They
often can't tell cars apart because the front of a
car is it registers in the same part of our
brain as a face. Hence the entire Cars movie franchise.
But yeah, that's just a fun fact. That is a

(55:35):
fun fact. Yeah. No. I said in the previous episode
that I have a counter theory to the we had
a human like being that lived at the same time
as us in the Way Back Past and hundred us down,
which is that I believe that the Uncanny Valley grew
as an instinctual response to people who were sick behaving different.

Speaker 3 (55:56):
And that's also something that they've posited in some of
the scientific antific papers that I read that yes, but
it's just not something that they can necessarily like study
for sure, but it is a theory that is positive
that like, oh, I guess, like if someone was sick.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
There was also examples.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
Given for like animals, like if an animal has rabies,
because that's also a thing that it's like they behave
really weirdly, hence the not deer, hence the not deer.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
But also again, humans can get rabies and that used
to be a much bigger problem in the past when
we didn't have a vacuution for it. But also like
a whole bunch there were a whole bunch of diseases
that were a much bigger problem in the past, and
even diseases that we might not even have anymore because
human beings have been alive for a very long time.
That may have affected the way that people behaved and

(56:43):
may have been a threat to the continued existence of
a community because they were communicable or high we contagious whatever,
you know, diseases that made a person dangerous, and so
as a method of survival you learn, oh, I need
to stay away from that, yeah, because that could kill me.
The disease this person has, this person was Raby's and
is suddenly acting real weird rabies terrifies me so much.

(57:07):
Rabi's is terrifying as a concept. But yes, that's again,
as you said, something that we can't definitively prove because
it's something that happened before written history. Yeah, so.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
They did these They did these studies because they're trying
to figure out a way. They were trying to help
tech companies figure out a way to make robotics that
wasn't finding that spot in the Uncanny Valley. So the
doctor whose name I will not butcher again explains, we
know that valuation signals in these brain regions can be
changed through social experience. So if you experience it an
artificial agent makes the right choice for you, such as

(57:42):
choosing the best gift, then your venture medial prefrontal cortex
might respond more favorably to this new social partner. This
is the first study to show individual differences in the
strengths of the Uncanny Valley effect, meaning that some individuals
react overly and others less sensitively to human like artificial agents.
That this is profess Sir Rosenthal von der putin is

(58:02):
christ this means that there are there's no one robot
design that fits or scares all users. And my view,
small robot behavior is of great importance because users will
abandon robots that do not prove to be smart or useful. So,
which is what kind of what we were saying since
the beginning of this, which is essentially that where what
the uncanny valley is changes between generations, between decades, with

(58:26):
time because of the way we perceive it. For example,
video games. Video games is probably the best example because
it's the it's the easiest one that we can look
to as like a more gradual change because the video Okay,
here's here's an interesting thing about video games.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
A video game.

Speaker 3 (58:46):
Made today and a video game made five years ago
kind of look similar. We've gotten to a point in
gaming where like changes definitely occur, but we've reached the
point where it's like, where do graphics.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Go from here? Right?

Speaker 3 (59:03):
Whereas a PS two game looks very different than a
video game from today.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
And I think that that has to do with a
bottleneck and computing power than it does in a bottleneck
of like design.

Speaker 3 (59:16):
Yes, so, but what I'm saying is that it's interesting
that those PS two games though, when they came out,
were like, look at this realistic landscape, and like people
would be like, holy shit, that's so realistic.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
We look at that now and go, this shit sucks. Yeah,
because our familiarity change exactly for sure. That's what I'm saying.
It's easier.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
It's easier to track in video games because so many
games come out per year. And the other thing is
like I would actually say it's easier to track with
video games than it is with animation because animation can
be stylized. Games can be too, but animation like between developers,
can be very stylized, whereas a lot of video game
development it'll happen with like the same few engines, cross

(01:00:00):
developers and studios. Yeah, so it's a lot easier to
track with video games that it is with animation. Personally,
that's how I feel. Other people may have different thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
On the stylization topic. I want to kind of talk
about intentional stylistic choices that are made to because this
is the thing, is that there are intentional stylistic changes
that are made to hijack human psychology in a way
similar to the Uncanny Valley, but with opposite effect. We
talk about how people will try and hijack human psychology
to unnerve in horror, there is the opposite effect where

(01:00:33):
people will attempt to make silistic choices to endear, which
is something that Chelsea, you will probably be aware of,
but anybody who thinks about it for longer than two
seconds is probably aware of this as well. Is that
there huh Stardi Valley? What started? It's pixelated and it's anyway,
go on. It's it's making things look like babies, oh,

(01:00:56):
like the human, the human, like animal, the human beast. Yeah,
is hardwired to a certain extent to be endeared to
something that appears infant like. It's why we love baby animals.
It's why a lot of creatures, especially cats for instance,
have domestic cats over time have evolved a method of
communicating with humans which is like a cute, little high

(01:01:16):
pitched noise that mimics the cry of a human infant,
and that's why we love them so much. But not
doing it on purpose, but it is something scenario, so
you know, so that as far as I'm aware, But
this is also something that is done in both robotics
and in animation, where a stylistic choice is made to
try and make something more endearing to the viewer. Did

(01:01:37):
you have your hand raise moult?

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
I was trying to find myself against the dog, but
I say, so, why is your face wet? But also
human beings have a tendency to like look at a
chair and be like, oh, it's got a face, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
But I'm more talking about like the Disney big eyes exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
There are certain features of infants that we can kind
of steal and use to make something look cute. Generally speaking,
it is like the big eyes phenomenon, like Clydie withalls
kind of Yeah. I'm more thinking about how like every
Disney princess in the last few years looks the same,
has same face, the same face thing. For sure. There

(01:02:14):
is a very specific incense that I want to bring
up again talking about like a Pixar movie, which is
Wally Ah. Yeah, the movie Wai, the robot. Wai himself
is immediately incredibly endearing. What would you say, his major
facial feature is eyebrows.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
Okay, it's the eyes and there's yeah, I know what
you're trying to say.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
He's got He does have expressive eyes, which are because
of the eye motion that is brow like. But the
fact is that the biggest thing Wally doesn't have a face,
He just has eyes. Yeah. Yeah, But also there's another
thing that happened recently that for instance, you guys have
seen Boston Boston Dynamics, the robotics company. You guys are
familiar with their Big Dog robot.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
I hate them, the one with the flame on, the
one with the flanthrower.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
They have probably put flanthrows on it, sure, but I
think when it originally came out, it was just this
robot that had legs, and people didn't like it because
it moved in an animal like way. It was mimicking
again a dog's movement, but it was very clearly a robot.
And that is the thing is it looked like a
robot but moved like a dog, and people didn't like that, yeah,

(01:03:20):
because it was moving right but looked wrong, which is
the opposite of the uncanny valley usually but still fits
in that niche Yeah. There were However, not too long
after the first big Dog video came out and everyone's like, oh,
that's creepy, they did another video about it where they
made one change that changed how a lot of people
thought about it, and you know what that change was.
They put it freaking googly eyes on it. They literally

(01:03:44):
had a little grabber hand and they put googly eyes
on it. And suddenly everyone's like, hah, that's funny. Which,
by the way, if you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
Send me a Boston Dynamics video and you're like, look
at this cool thing, I'm gonna be.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
That's a they wore profiteering. Stop it. They're making those
things to go into war. Yeah, I mean again, But
that's as I was talking before we came on to
the podcast. God, it's hard to find an engineering job
where the company doesn't kill people. Man, why is that
so hard? I want to find a specific robot that

(01:04:20):
we were taught about in school that is not your
stabby robot. It's not the stabby robot didn't have a face.
You should have put googly eyes on it. It didn't
have a face where I was supposed to google eyes.
I don't know. Okay, So here's the thing. Here's the thing.
I don't know if I can find exact images of this,
of this phenomenon. There is and I think I've said
this on the podcast before when I was learning about it,

(01:04:41):
there is a case study that was shown to us
about trying to take that baby hijack of the brain
for a positive, positive usage where okay, we're still good
because I saw pulled it. Yeah, where someone was trying

(01:05:01):
to invent a device that would help elderly people remember
to take their medicine. It was supposed to be like
a friendly interface for somebody who was not necessarily the
most technically literate that they would want to interact with
that would help them remember to take daily medication. And
the way that they tried to make this creature, this robot,
I shouldn't say creature, because it was a machine, this robot.

(01:05:22):
The way they tried to make it look friendly was
by making it look like a baby, because people love babies.
Here's the thing, though, did not work. It just looked
creepy and I can't find an exact image of it,
but I can show you things that kind of looked
like it, and like, for instance that, oh I hate that.

(01:05:45):
Yeah no, where it was too detailed but not quite right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Yeah, get it away, I get it away.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
And people didn't want to interact with that because they
were making it look like a baby. But it hit
the uncanny valley and the solution was to make something
that had similar features proportionally to a baby, but looked
very far from a human, something like and I'm now
showing them a different interface of that where it's just

(01:06:12):
like a kind of cartoony little face on a vaguely
humanoid shape. It's like a little robot waiters at restaurants.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Yes, the ones that look like cats sometimes too, the.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
One that looked like cats. Yeah. And this is something
that Japan's great about because they've embraced the thing of like, oh,
let's just make technology cute. Well, they coined the term
the uncanny valley, they did. But their solution, they came
to the solution very quickly, which is like, let's not
I'm sorry she is. She's wetter than I expected her
to be. They came to a solution to the uncanny
Valley problem because they're willing to embrace the idea of

(01:06:42):
things just being cute. It's like, let's just make it
look kind of cute. See, let's not try and make
it look realistic. I don't know why we in the
West are so afraid of things being cute. Look at
Mark Zuckerberg.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
He's he is the uncanny It's actually really funny because
they used Mark Zuckerberg as an example of like an
uncanny valley human, and.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
That's something that you can get into. There's a certain
ableism when it comes. I'm not saying that you were
being able to, don't want to say that, but there
is a certain ablism that comes into this discussion when
people start pointing it, like like there are some people
who are like, h this person's uncanny. Yeah, when it's
like that's that is an autistic person or that is
a person with like a we're discussing diseases, but you

(01:07:22):
can have brain damages that cause you to behave in
different ways or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:07:26):
What's funny about so the videos and I'll go through
the videos I watched when they were talking about Mark
Zuckerberg and being like, ha ha, he's a robot. What's
interesting is that I watched that and then read the
scientific paper about like where we're thinking the neurons in
our brain, like what they're doing, and where it is
when we perceive the uncanny valley. And the thing that

(01:07:47):
they actually did point out in the video that I
think even more so like leads us to the psychology
paper that I read, is that what was uncanny about
For specifically, it was zuckerbergs uh testimony to Congress, And
what's like canny.

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
About it is that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
There are points when he's smiling, but he's not like
he's only smiling with the bottom half of his face.
And it's because he very clearly is upset about being there, right,
And so it has.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
Nothing to do with any kind of like there's it's
it's he's faking an emotion, yes, and he's not faking
it convincingly, and that makes it uncanny.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Yes, And it goes back into that. The whole thing
with the Uncanny Valley is it reacts in the same
part of our brain that tries to receive social cues.
Whereas we can look at Mark Zuckerberg and without knowing
that information, we still know that, like his testimony to Congress,
something was off, and it's because he clearly is like
smiling but not really smiling.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Right, And it's it's coming across as deceptive, and thus
it's queuing as danger in our brains because we're like,
this person is not being they're not expressing themselves in
a genuine manner.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
But yeah, that's a that's my information on the Uncanny Valley.
I would like to thank the YouTube YouTubers Stooky, Strucky Movies, Clover,
the y Files and Romeister are all the ones that
I watched, and then thank you too. Let me bring
up all the scientific papers.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
Yeah, why did you close it? I don't know, I'm dumb.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
It's an article from the University of Cambridge called Scientists
identify possible source of the Uncanny Valley in the brain
I EE spectrum? What is the Uncanny Valley? And simply psychology?
And this one says by Aisha Pereira, Uncanny Valley examples
effects in theory.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
That was the paper that I read. And then also
thank you too.

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):
Charlotte Magazine for the conspiracy Tree Tower by Jeremy Markovic.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
I would like to add on a thing which is
sort of just like places to go from here as
a thought for me research I want to be done
because we have also seen evidence that the Uncanny Valley
is not just a phenomenon humans experience. It is a
phenomenon that animals experience. Anybody who's ever approached their dog
while wearing a mask, yes knows.

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
I will say they also did Uncanny Valley experiments on apes.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
That for sure Yeah, it is something that animals experience,
and I'm interested to know if it is something that
animals that don't live collectively experience. So, for instance, there
are a lot of animals that are very solitary, that
only meet up with other members of their species at
very specific times. Yeah, do those creatures experience the uncanny Valley? Yeah?

(01:10:33):
Interesting because they are not as hardwired for the social
interaction as community living creatures are. So just a question
that I now have. I think that's a fair question. Yeah, yeah,
so yeah, any takeaways besides that being a question you have?
The uncanny Valley I think is something that, regardless of why,

(01:10:54):
is an instinctual response. I think it is a protective
response in some form or another, and it's really interesting
what sets it off. I'm interested to see how it
evolves over time because I think, as we've discussed.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
Until we're defenseless and the creature that's been waiting for
all the millennia kills us all, well, I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Really interested to see if it ever goes away. Is
my thing? Is the valley ever going to become so
narrow that we step right over it? You know, that's
a great question because it used to be so wide
that like a person in a talkie movie would set
it off. Now it is, it's to the point where
it's like the friacking teeth until dawn don't look right,

(01:11:35):
or like the big dog robot don't look right because
it's moving too much like a creature, even though it
doesn't look like one. It's that kind of thing. Is
there going to be a point where our familiarity with things,
our familiarity with things is so great that we are
so close to actually replicating a real person.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
That makes me wonder. Also, you know, going back in time,
we can't talk to our ancestors because dead obviously, but
what if their version of what if it was not
so thin? What if it was so wide that apes,
Oh my god man, what if apes were the thing
that actually triggered the uncanny valley.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
That there's a discussion about.

Speaker 3 (01:12:16):
I don't know about that, because apes they have human
like features, but they don't.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
They don't.

Speaker 3 (01:12:23):
They're not in that valley of like so humanoid, but
something is still off, there's still very much animal.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
Well, I think that's what Matl was asking, is was
there ever a point where somebody who perhaps is not
familiar with how they look, because there is a thing
that used to be done where there. I don't know
if this is like a real thing or an apocryphal story,
but they used to like shave bears in the circus
and then people would mistake them for people, right, and
that was like a whole thing. I don't know. Again,

(01:12:52):
it's all to do with familiarity.

Speaker 2 (01:12:53):
Yeah, familiarity because like back then, they didn't have talkies
and stuff like that, movies and all that. So I'm
wondering it's like their version of that's the closest thing
to me, and I don't like it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
Maybe who's who's to say?

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
Minnie says, we're recording.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
There is just one last thing talking about You mentioned
a robot that was way too similar to a person,
And again I do feel like I mentioned this on
the podcast before, but when I was learning about the
Uncanny Valley, another case study we were shown was a
very famous roboticist in Japan who has a passion project
of making a hyper realistic scarlet Johansson android to the

(01:13:29):
point where it had individual hair follicles. Uh. And you
know that that man, so he was having sex with
for sure, he was having sex with the robot. You
just know it that. I know that. I'm sorry that
that's the thing that we'll have to reckon with. But yeah,

(01:13:50):
it was like really realistic to the point where it
was deeply unsettling. And that's the thing that exists in
the world. It's the hyper realistic scarlet your Hanson robe.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
We wish. How does scholeto Hanson.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
Feel about that? We badly doesn't like it? Good for her,
doesn't like it? You know what, She's right, Yeah, shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:14:08):
Yeah, And she's right, She's right.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Creepy. So Tom Manks did nothing wrong. No one ever
said he didn't he did anything wrong. I'm just is
it a.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
Good Christmas movie?

Speaker 1 (01:14:17):
And I don't like Christmas?

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
It was a good Christmas movie?

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
Ever want to watch that? Yeah? I know you. I
want you to see the animated BeO Wolf movie. Okay,
because it's a weird movie. It's have you seen it?

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
I have?

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
Okay, so you can I agree. I agree it's creepy
in it, right, Oh Jesus, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:38):
I started saying something earlier, and then we went off
at a tangent. I think Minna was doing something and
we stopped. But I want to talk the teeth thing.
We watched a movie together that had what's his name
fuck the Hobbit, what's his name?

Speaker 1 (01:14:51):
What? The actor who played Bilbo Elijah or not Bilbo?
Which which the old the old Bilbo or the young
bilbil young one? Oh? Martin Martin Freeman.

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
Yeah, there was a movie that we watched that had
Martin Freeman in it, uh huh, where he was a
bad guy and they put dentures on him to make
him look even more creepy. They made because they it's
that whole like, his teeth are two white kind of thing.
They look fake and that's intentional.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
Yeah. I was just thinking of that freaking fake teeth
for whatever reason, spikes everybody's spikes all of our instincts.
Intentional hijacking of the uncanny valley to get a response
out of people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fun facts. All Right,
Well that was neat. Thank you, Chelsea, You're welcome. I
just love that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:34):
I want to find more topics that have both of
our degrees converging into something.

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
I mean, the entire field of animatronics and film is that.
I know.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
But there's not a whole lot more we can do
about that, I feel. Besides what we've talked about in
this today. I don't know em yeah, me, maybe one
day we'll find something else. May I just love that
I accidentally stumbled upon something that used both of our degrees.

Speaker 1 (01:15:58):
I don't know if what was an accident. I didn't
think film would come up. I don't know why I
didn't think film come up. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
Well, I knew animation was going to because I already
knew about like the animated films that had that were
in the Uncannon Valley. I don't know why I didn't
think more on why how it would converge in both
of our special not special interests, both of our expertise.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Welly has yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:21):
Yeah, we're all trying to remember the human experience and
doing it badly and doing it badly and doing it badly.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
We're gonna move on now to our final section of
the podcast, which is correspondence and corrections. But first let's
have one last word from our sponsors. All right, let's
start with Blue Sky, Blue Sky. First, we have that
blank space is eighty four, who sends us a video

(01:16:48):
that I did just watch because it was sewing and
I was like, I need to know what this is.
And it's a cryptid fabric. Oh nice prints. Yeah, cue
love that it's dorrible? Is the Fox sent us a
screenshot of a Wikipedia page which says list of rebellions
in the United States. This list isn't complete, but you
can help by expanding it. Yes, then it's George Washington

(01:17:11):
slightly motion blurred with glowing eyes. Yep. Blank.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
Spaces eighty four also sends this book is also similar,
which is Zoo by James Patterson.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
Oh that idea of like infected creatures that are not
actually what they're pretending to be kind of vibe Yeah,
ye oh boy. American Amando sent us an eighth an
eight part tweet thread or not tweet blue sky post thread, whatever,
So here we go. Zombies as being based on rabies
or whatnot is more a function of movies than mythology.

(01:17:40):
The original Haitian stories have them as basically magical robots
controlled by a sorcer or something, which is something that
I was aware of as well. I don't know if
you're aware of, like the hoodoo practice. I think I
was aware of it, but it wasn't at the forefront
of my mind. We have changed. Western culture has changed
the concept of zombie so far from the original, the
idea of them reproducing through murderous cannibalism is different. Danny

(01:18:03):
Boyle or someone connected with twenty eight days later and
said that rage virus was a what if Rabi's but
also ebola. She says, decisions since Raby's doesn't make you
throw a blood and a Bola plus other hemorrhaget fevers does.
I didn't know that Bola did that. Bola liquefies all
of your organs and then makes them oo's out of
every orifice. She's crast that's why people are so afraid

(01:18:25):
of a bola. I mean, yeah, yeah, there is a movie.
I think it's one of the death note movies where
there's like super Ebola that's gonna be released. It's like
a whole thing. I man didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:18:38):
So I didn't mention this part because I wasn't as
familiar with it. But one of the videos that I
watched did go into the anime of it all with
the uncannon valley and how some anime uses it more
of like a comedic effect, also a horror effect, but
it was the comedic effect one that was funny, where
it's like something will be happening and then it'll zoom
it on someone's face and it'll be hyper realistic.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
Well that's also the SpongeBob of it, that's true. Yeah,
and that's again that's the the whole like the shocking
jarring difference kind of thing, or.

Speaker 3 (01:19:06):
The opposite for comedic effect, where they gave the example
of one punch Man where oh yeah, we're in hyperrealism,
but then some reaction stots will.

Speaker 1 (01:19:14):
Just be like, I want simplified face. I want to
say that the it was the creator the manga cuff
for full mental Alchemists, who I think popularized that style
to the best effect of like hyper realism. And then
something happens and suddenly it's like a little chibby two
dy Like Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:32):
Every time I see that though, I just think of
like the difference between a Pokemon and a Ditto imitating
a Pokemon.

Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
Yeah, same vibe, same vibe. Sorry, back to American random yes,
but no, Yeah. I think George Ramiro or someone who
really likes his movies said that the thing about zombies
murdering and cannonbizing people was quote social commentary on conspicuous consumerism,
consumption and consumerism, which is why one of his movies
happens in the mall. I believe that is the dub
that's Dater Tomorrow would not adapt Tomorrow the Day Donn

(01:20:00):
of the Dead, whichever one is first. I think Donna
the Dead is the first one, which is meant to
be a satire, a commentary upon consumption, which is most
good zombie media. Now. I don't know what The Walking
Dead is doing anymore, but The Walking Dead originally was
playing off of the fear of disease, the fear of
the othering of humanity, the idea of what if the

(01:20:21):
world ended? And who is the monster in that situation?
Because over time with The Walking Dead, the zombies become
more of like an environmental threat. They're not something. The
humans are more threatening than the zombies are. Yeah, and
so it's more of a commentary again, It's like, who
is the monster in this scenario? Right? That's what The
Walking Dead was up to. And then the plot, God,

(01:20:43):
are we're still going? No? We almost? The spin offs
are yeah, yeah crazy. Will I watch the one just
for Norman ritis about Hidero and Paris? Maybe I will.

Speaker 3 (01:20:53):
It's funny because I was texting one of our friends
earlier about the movies that are being or video games
that are being turned into movies, and death straining came
up and she was like, they better put Norman Ritas
in there, and I'm like, I think it depends on
his schedule with The Walking Dead, which is somehow still going.

Speaker 1 (01:21:09):
He's got to make that zombie money. Yeah, okay, American
Man continues, and since I hate everything to do with
all zombie media, that isn't twenty eight Days Later not
the sequel, which, other than the pre credit scene was
absolutely terrible. T bed on the New one time for
a change of subject. As someone who's spent a significant
chunk of life around Boone, it does not surprise me
in the least that someone would see a deer with

(01:21:29):
problems and rather than give it a name like Cannibal, Bambi,
Canabambie default too, not deer. Also, the army parade was pathetic.
This is talking about the recent US Army but Trump
berthdayym Sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:21:43):
But the lone tank with the squeaky wheels will be
forever ingrained in my mind and That's what I'll be
thinking of as our fast to just assent into fascism
continues to happen.

Speaker 1 (01:21:55):
The Army parade was pathetic. Anyone who's ever been in
the military can tell that everyone was funoning it in.
Nobody was happy to be there. There were no rehearsals,
and nobody gave one tin, not dear turd for make
to make it look good. Normally, anything that the president
is going to be at, especially with this much media exposure,
will be rigorously planned, practice, rehearsed, and synchronized. So remarkable

(01:22:16):
how disjointed and out of sync everything was. Trump allegedly
yelled at Hegzeth over it, which you know fair, he
was probably too drunk to remember it. Also, Yeah, conservatives
completely failing to understand fortunate son, go figure. I bet
Johnny John Fogerty, John Fogerty, Sorry my brain stopped. I
was like, I didn't say that right, John Fogerty said,
quote that song is basically about Trump being.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):
A goddamn coward, you incompetent jackasses when he heard about it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:40):
Yeah, end of thread.

Speaker 3 (01:22:43):
Kenzie Fox says, Hey, guys, mouths and pals, you guys
absolutely made my day when you read my post on
the podcast was legit not expecting you guys see me.
So I'd like to thank you with two things. The
first is a cat. The second is an exerpt from
a book I'm writing at the moment.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
Ooh a book, you say.

Speaker 3 (01:22:59):
Oh, we can't uh, oh boy, we can't read that
because it's like too long, but it says something I
like to do in writing is incorporate little things from
little things, from things I love. Oh, c's from artists
I follow, altered so is not to be theft, and
a bunch of other Easter eggs. So I decided to
insert you guys into my universe. Oh, I can't wait
to read this far.

Speaker 1 (01:23:18):
We're gonna have to read that's cute. We'll have to
read this. Thank you. I love that. Also, your orange
cat is very delightful. We do thank you for showing
us this cat. I love this cat. Issa the Fox says,
ICE agents are complaining that every time they go out
wearing masks and unmarked cars with no uniforms or identification
as law enforcement to abduct people, protests keep dumping pounds

(01:23:39):
of glitter on them so that everyone can tell their
ICE for days afterwards. And then it's the guy in
front of the whiteboard from Cavin in the Woods, Yes,
saying who had glitter bombing the Geschapo on their Bingo.

Speaker 3 (01:23:50):
Car that is La is unmatched. Like we see a problem,
We're gonna fix it with glitter.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
Glitter is the problem to the answer to so many problems.
I should say yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
And then app Like spaces eighty four sens is a
TikTok of someone visiting Mothman, the Caked Mothman.

Speaker 1 (01:24:07):
We also have another video of uh Big Big a
go pro. There's a lot of these, like I think
that they're like AI like cryptid uh It's it's it's
really funny that this is like a growing trend trend.
It's a growing genre on TikTok.

Speaker 3 (01:24:24):
Yeah, and then moonlit t says grew up in North
Carolina but never heard of the not Dear New Fear Unlocked.

Speaker 1 (01:24:31):
I'm sorry that I gave this to you. Yep, share
my fear with me.

Speaker 3 (01:24:34):
And then I think we have time for an email,
an email you say, all right, So to start, we
have a couple shorties that we got this week that
I want to shout out.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
So first they signed their name.

Speaker 3 (01:24:46):
Ryan, Ryan sends us Hi Galsan mal. I wanted to
reach out and say that your podcast is one of
my absolute favorites. It really helps me get through my workday.
You all do a fantastic job, so please keep up
the great work.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
Yeah. I also wanted to share a picture of my kittens,
Riley and Finn, and they are the best kittens. Oh ok.

Speaker 3 (01:25:03):
We went out for Male's birthday last week. We did
board game night, yeah local, they're called geek Te's gas
Tazing Games, and they have cats to adopt and they
had like four or five kittens, and I wanted to
come home with one so badly.

Speaker 1 (01:25:19):
The allure of kittens is incredibly strong, and the allure
of kitties. Yes, Cinder, you're very cute too. Even though
you're grown up, you're still adorable. She is still adorable.

Speaker 3 (01:25:29):
And then we have one of our common longtime listeners
and correspondents who didn't sign. So I just don't want
to assume, but says I just realized that our fiance's uncle,
the guy who believes the moon is a death star
and Democrats control weather machines, believes in rationalism.

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
I am so sorry. It's wild how many people will
be like I am a rationalist. I do think the
moon is fake. It's like we have come full circle,
haven't we. Yeah, we've rationalized ourselves into a circle, haven't we.
All Right, Chelsea, So how I read you something? I
would love for you to read me a something. So
this is from Nipping the Third Hello, another frequent correspondent

(01:26:07):
on the podcast, usually in tweet slash blue sky format. Yeah,
but now we're getting email. Yeah, Hi, goals, moles and
all manner of pals. I like that. That is a
thing that people We've never asked for that that people
to start doing that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
Carson did it, and then we said it on the podcast,
and now, like.

Speaker 1 (01:26:23):
It's been forever, it is, in fact the formula now
to greet the goals, the mouths and the pals. And
we're good with that. Yeah, it's it tickles. Sometimes it's
furry pals, sometimes it's free pals. I'm tickled by it.
I just it's just funny that it evolved. Yeah, organically,
just wanted to drop you a quick note to thank
you for continuing the podcast through the horrors. Every time

(01:26:44):
a new episode drops, it's a treat. Also, for the
first time in a seven question mark exclamation point years,
I've been listening to you guys that actually have pets
of my own with which to pay the pets. Yay,
this is Sandro Light twenty months old and her daughter
Jane dark tabby, eight months old. And I adopted them

(01:27:05):
two days ago. This was in February, so they've spend
more than two days now. Yes, but we're still delighted
by this. God, oh my god. Ked Cassie turns out
to be a massive cuddle bug and took less than
twenty four hours to decide my lap was one of
her top five sleep spots. Jane is more wary, not
surprising as she's never been in a house before, but

(01:27:26):
even already she's started to come out of her shell
a little bit. Anyway, hope these pics cover at least
some of my back taxes. Rest assured there are plenty
more where they came from. If you want more, I
want many more. Keep up the excellent work. Thank you.
They're so cute. I love it. I'm glad they love you. Yeah,
there is I will say, Uh, Cassandra, I think, and

(01:27:47):
I think this is a thing about every cat named Cassandra,
because we have a friend Kay, Kay has a cat
name in Sandra. They all kind of look a little haunted. Yes,
Cassie looks so fun and I think that this is
a thing. I don't know if it's like you get
a cat that looks haunted and kind of instinctually name
it Cassandra, or if it's like a reverse where they

(01:28:09):
start looking haunted. Either.

Speaker 3 (01:28:10):
The funny thing about Kate's Cassandra is she's actually she's
named after the character in Wicked and Divide, but.

Speaker 1 (01:28:16):
The who is who is an allegory mythical Cassandra. Yes,
it's basically the same thing.

Speaker 3 (01:28:22):
I wicktive Cassandra is not nearly as haunted, questionable, not fair, questionable,
haunted in different ways.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
That's fair. I just think it's hilarious. And I also
have a friend. I think it's like anytime you name
a cat after like a mythical being. Because we also
have a friend. Bones's cat Tregle, he was named after
a Norse goddess, also looks haunted as hell. Yeah, Like,
I don't know what it is. I love Trigle though
she's so cute, she's very cute. Haunted as hell. I

(01:28:51):
gotta say, like it is a different kind of haunted
because Egg looks haunted. Yes, but he doesn't look hanted
in like he's seen too much. He looks haunted in
the way it's like, oh, that's the ghost of a
Victorian child. Yes, it's a different kind of haunted. Do
we have time for one more? No? Okay, okay, now
is definitive. Maul checked out a while ago. I loved Jill.
Mal was like, oh, so this will be a short one.
I just stared at him.

Speaker 3 (01:29:12):
You you agreed, I said, possibly, knowing full well that
we can yap.

Speaker 1 (01:29:18):
Yapping's fine, everybody, all of us here at the podcast
and you at home, Thank you so much for participating
in the show. We love it. When you send us
your thoughts, we love it. And you send us your opinions.
We love it when you send us pictures of your pets.
If you have any of those things.

Speaker 5 (01:29:33):
Feel free to email them to us at Cult Scripteds
Conspiracies at gmail dot com. Alternatively, you can reach out
to us via our social medias. You could send us
if you wanted examples of the Uncanny Valley.

Speaker 1 (01:29:45):
No, you could, you could do it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
I don't look at the emails.

Speaker 3 (01:29:49):
Don't't look at the emails or the blue sky. We
do and I want them.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
Don't tag Mal specifically. Mal doesn't have a blue sky.
I'm gonna make him get a blue He's got some
from fine mail.

Speaker 3 (01:29:57):
On social media find yeah, he got You can't really
find him many places.

Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
I don't need social media.

Speaker 1 (01:30:04):
Find mal in Final Fantasy fourteen. Yes, you can do
Downy Fantasy fourteen.

Speaker 2 (01:30:11):
Here's a hint. I'm on Cactoir. If that helps you find.

Speaker 1 (01:30:14):
Me, I feel like doesn't narrow I mean they get
kind of narrows down, but in the same way of
like saying somewhere in China.

Speaker 2 (01:30:21):
No, that's like saying I'm somewhere in the West Coast
of the United States.

Speaker 1 (01:30:26):
Still does not help a lot. If you can find him,
show him examples of the Uncanny Valley, I got.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
A house, my free company in the miss What's up?

Speaker 1 (01:30:36):
Which plot? You'll never know around his neighbors know him. Yes,
this is true. They do find mal in Final Fantasy fourteen.
That is your new that's the mission we're assigning you,
your uh, your mission if you choose to accept it,
to find mal in Final Fantasy fourteen and then bombard
him with psychological warfare.

Speaker 2 (01:30:57):
This is so funny because no one you don't want
my character looks like vaguely, vaguely, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:31:03):
I know what your character looks like literally literally is
the freaking screen backdrop. Yeah, it's a self insert character
that he tried to make us all love in his campaign.

Speaker 1 (01:31:13):
I know what you're about, DND self insert campaigner.

Speaker 2 (01:31:16):
With booths women are hot, that's true.

Speaker 1 (01:31:19):
You can find us on social media. We have a
Blue Sky which is at Safety Podcast. We also have
a Patreon Patreon dot com slash cult Script's Conspiracies Never
required but always appreciated. Yeah, we also have a website
where you can find everything except Formal's Final Fantasy four
team user name, which is cult Scripted Conspiracies dot com
for we could put it on there. Hang on as

(01:31:43):
an easter egg.

Speaker 3 (01:31:45):
I'm going to see how quickly Celeste can respond to
me about what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):
Yeah, are we going to hide it as an easter
egg in the website to make it easier to find
him to say, that's so funny to say, maybe we will,
maybe we won't. You will find out at some point
in the future when somebody does it. Uh. Anyway, that's
all we got for this episode. What you could do
is you could create a character that is like reverse

(01:32:09):
on Canny Valley, which looks so far away from a
human that we love it, which is uh, I think
cats can't well, but I said, like cats are hard
cats and dogs are hard because people know them too well.
But also like again, kats, babies kind of thing. What
I'm saying is like it needs to be like anti
person but still.

Speaker 2 (01:32:29):
Lovable aunt man, like a man, like an ant that
has become humanoid, not man the superhero.

Speaker 1 (01:32:35):
But we don't like bugs. You have to still love it.
Find that would would she say? She did?

Speaker 3 (01:32:40):
Oh, okay, the creature Celest responded and says, I don't know,
but I know his character's name, which is different than
user names. Let's see if she responds with the character name.

Speaker 1 (01:32:53):
We're no, we're not gonna say we don't make it
easy docs me. We're not gonna make it easy on them.
Do me a challenge if we just see what his
character name is, that makes a.

Speaker 2 (01:33:02):
Game hints well.

Speaker 1 (01:33:04):
Also, I don't think you're going to find him with this. No,
don't say we're not going to give anoditional information. It
starts the why. That's okay, she's gonna do it anyway. Whatever.
We're going to move on now to end the podcast.
Goodbye listeners, Goodbye Chelsea, right, goodbye Chelsea, Christina, Bye, mel,
I can still hear his voice.

Speaker 2 (01:33:25):
Bye, ladies.

Speaker 1 (01:33:29):
How to like.

Speaker 3 (01:33:30):
Make that out of the way when we're not used?

Speaker 2 (01:33:32):
Actually we could probably put what.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):
We gotta function the room?

Speaker 2 (01:33:35):
Make what the treadmill? Oh, I just have accepted that
it exists there. To be honest, I knew when we
got it three years ago, four years ago, that this
was going to be its result. I knew.

Speaker 3 (01:33:48):
I mean it's tomorrow when I get my desk fully
set up, it's going to go here when I use it,
and then I'm not.

Speaker 2 (01:33:53):
Going to put it like there you're setting up for your.

Speaker 1 (01:33:56):
Desk because I'm getting the laptop.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, have a functional desk. I
mean you, I mean that's a laptop stand too, right there.

Speaker 3 (01:34:06):
Yeah, but it's a laptop stand that makes it difficult
for me to use a keyboard in a mouse.

Speaker 1 (01:34:10):
I don't know what you want.

Speaker 2 (01:34:11):
I don't I don't know what you want from life,
but I don't know how to provide is what I'm getting.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
It too, I already got it.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
What if we go to internet after this? I didn't
ask what you wanted anyway, I'm just here.

Speaker 3 (01:34:26):
I know, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
Christina I'll got it in and out with you. I'm good.

Speaker 2 (01:34:31):
Can I get in and out cooked over here?

Speaker 1 (01:34:33):
It kind of seems like it, but I'm not really
like I'm not into that. That's not my cank So
I'm gonna no. But I love the variations of the cuckchair.
I don't know if I've shared with those memes where
you like the cuckstoal memes. There's there's a bunch of
memes where it's like somebody using cockchair in different languages,
and it's like you don't need to know what's being said,

(01:34:55):
Like you don't need to understand language. Like for instance,
there was like again, I saw a tweet in Iceland
which was just like a picture of a hotel room
and the only in the middle of a sentence it
just said cuckstool, And I was like, I don't need
to understand to know what's happening. Like I don't speak Icelanding,
but I know exactly what you're trying to convey.

Speaker 3 (01:35:15):
I don't know who runs the Democratic National Party like
right now, but I would vote for them for president.

Speaker 1 (01:35:21):
Yeah I saw that tweet. Yeah, but no, somebody also
sent a picture of a different hotel room, which was
like Western themed on Twitter somewhere, and they had a
picture of instead of a chair, it was like it
was like a saddle stool, and so the tweet just
said like the cuck saddle is savage because it was

(01:35:42):
literally it's a stool but instead of like a flat
top with a saddle in the corner of the room
facing the bed. My god, and it's like, yeah, the
cuck saddle is savage.

Speaker 2 (01:35:51):
That's when you want to get themed about your culd.

Speaker 1 (01:35:54):
You want to be themed about when you want to
be he haw about it. Sender's coming in to investigate.

Speaker 2 (01:35:58):
I think, oh, my god, Santa, did you come in
to talk about cuckoldure. No, okay,

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