A fascinating chat with the author and baseball hostorian, whose new book "Interstate '85-The Royals, The Cardinals, and the Show-Me World Series" provide a fresh look at the iconic matchup four decades on. Great new details and insights to soak in!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Danny Clinkscale, Reasonably Irreverent podcast, insightful and
witty commentary, probing interviews and detours from the beaten.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Path, Welcome to Kansas City Profiles presented by Easton Roofing,
and a Fascinating trip down Baseball Memory Lane with Marshall Garvey.
He is a writer with over two decades of experience.
He's a baseball historian, He's a historian period and his
new book is Interstate eighty five The Royals, the Cardinals
(00:35):
and the Show Me World Series and it has received
a lot of praise. He did twenty seven different interviews
with the participants in the World Series and those around it,
and it's really an outstanding book out this year and
he'll be in the Kansas City area a few times
to promote it. He also has a background in other
baseball endeavors, including The Hidden History of Sacramento Baseball that
(00:56):
is his native area and it captures the overlook history
of the sport in California's capital. And he also co
authored a novel based on the Korean War, Elwood's Odyssey,
with his friend J. D.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Weaver.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
He works full time as an immigration case writer and
lives in the Greater Sacramento area in Citrus Heights, California.
It's the fortieth anniversary of the eighty five World Series,
and this is chronicled in a brand new way, in
an in depth way, and it's a lot of fun
to talk to Marshall Garvey. It's a great storyteller, a
lot of baseball to consume. Right here, Marshall Garvey is
(01:31):
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Speaker 1 (01:35):
More of Danny's Reasonably Irreverend podcast after this.
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Speaker 3 (04:23):
Look forward to working with you.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Marshall. You were born in southern California, but you're really
a Northern California person and often spent time in Truckee, California.
I'm a golf fan, so I'm familiar with that. They
play a PGA Tour event in Truckee. Actually, so I know.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
I know that.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
That's what I know about Trucky. But tell me about
being a young boy growing up in No Cow.
Speaker 6 (04:45):
Uh, Well, just a really comfortable living Trucky especially, I
got to grow up with authentic snow, and I realize
a lot of people in the state, especially down south.
Speaker 7 (04:55):
Have never experienced that. So yeah, just a.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
Really comfortable, happy childhood growing again of grown up primarily
and Sacramento. Came of age there in the two thousands,
still live in the Sacramento.
Speaker 7 (05:08):
Area, so very very stable up bringing.
Speaker 6 (05:12):
Growing up in Sacramento's is a really good calm place
to live and seen all of my endeavor's take off here,
including being an author and baseball historians.
Speaker 7 (05:20):
So happy living here.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Now, obviously you're a baseball historian. We'll talk about the
great book Interstate eighty five and in a little bit.
But did you play much baseball when you're a kid.
Speaker 7 (05:33):
That's the thing I didn't. I definitely played some.
Speaker 6 (05:36):
T ball when I was really young, but no, I
did not, excuse me, not.
Speaker 7 (05:42):
A proper baseball player. I have played.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
Vintage baseball by eighteen sixties rules with some friends. We
do that every now and then, right, But no, I
was not a baseball player like in high school or college.
I'm very much a baseball nerd a baseball Historian's that's
the role I fell in the overall scheme of things.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well, I fit into that too, although I did play baseball.
But anyway, so when as you were growing up, what
was your thought process I don't know, seven, eight, nine,
ten years old. Did you have dreams and aspirations of
doing something besides what you did? Or you were always
thinking about being a writer and a historian.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
Well, it's funny you ass around that specific age range.
I actually really wanted to be a pharmacist when I
was a kid.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I don't know if I've ever heard I don't know
if I've ever heard anybody say that.
Speaker 7 (06:32):
Very esoteric.
Speaker 6 (06:33):
Indeed, because my dad worked as a pharmacist, my grandfather,
his father worked as a pharmacist. A lot of pharmaceutical
and pharmacists and doctors in.
Speaker 7 (06:42):
My family, especially on my dad's side.
Speaker 6 (06:45):
But I think being a writer took off more in
the early two thousands, when I was in middle school,
I really got into movies and started writing movie reviews, right,
So that really, I think that's what really cemented in
my mind how much I loved writing and expanded my
repertoire to write about many other things, including baseball in
the years to come.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
So when I was coming time to head to college,
what was your thought process then, Well, when it came.
Speaker 6 (07:11):
Time to add to college, Well, I started out in
junior college not really.
Speaker 7 (07:15):
Knowing what to do.
Speaker 6 (07:17):
I graduated high school in two thousand and eight, which
is the year of the Great Recession and all that,
and I think I had vague ideas maybe being a
journalism major, but it really wasn't clicking there, you know.
I just there wasn't a journalism school in nearby. I
think the closest was like University of Nevada Reno. But
then I reoriented it.
Speaker 7 (07:37):
I thought, what if I become a history major.
Speaker 6 (07:39):
I love history. That's a very innaging thing that goes
back to my childhood as well. My dad and works
as a history teaching He's done that for a long time.
So I reoriented and became a history major. Transferred to UC.
Speaker 7 (07:51):
Davis and that really was kind of another big piece
of the puzzle.
Speaker 6 (07:57):
You know, improved my historical understanding, improved my writing, and
as luck would have it, I got a history writing
internship just before I graduated UC Davis, so that worked
out really nicely.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Well, you would go on to write a novel about
the Korean War, so that obviously fits in. We'll talk
a little bit about that. So you go to UC Davis,
you graduate, you get this internship. Is where does the
path take you?
Speaker 7 (08:20):
Now?
Speaker 6 (08:22):
Well, that internship was based on an idea for a
book about the history of baseball and Sacramento. The original
plan was that I would write it for the Sacramento
Historical Society, but eventually, around the time I actually got
promoted from intern to being a member of the board
of directors, they officially decided to just let me have
(08:43):
the book for my own like, not for the Historical Society.
So that became The Hidden History of Sacramento Baseball, which
I self published through Amazon KDP in twenty nineteen. And
that was my first book, and I really showed that
Sacramento has been a pioneer for baseball in California since
before the Civil War, hasn't really gotten the credit that
(09:05):
it deserves for that.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Hopefully well, now Sacramento probably is undervalued in many ways.
But tell us a few nuggets about Sacramento baseball, which
of course now is enjoying Major League Baseball.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Oh well, Sacramento baseball, there's so many great milestones. They
hosted the first Sacramento hosted the first league game in
Pacific Coast League history in March of nineteen oh three.
Sacramento had night baseball, five years before.
Speaker 7 (09:31):
The majors did. Sacramento. The Sacramento Solon Senators.
Speaker 6 (09:36):
Had a night game in nineteen thirty and of course
the first night game in MLB was nineteen thirty five
at Crosley Field in Cincinnati. Many great players were born
in Sacramento.
Speaker 7 (09:46):
Or grew up here.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
As I discussed with others, you could put together a
World Series team out of Sacramento grown players, and Dusty Baker,
Larry Boa, Steve sachs Now, Brad Lidge, Bob and ken
Ford Bob of course Germaine in the Cheney five, which
we'll get to.
Speaker 7 (10:04):
Yeah, Sacramento's just an overlooked pioneer and baseball training ground,
and now that it's.
Speaker 6 (10:09):
Got Major League baseball whirredess that situation is, you know,
I should get some more attention.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Now, let's talk a little bit about the historical aspect.
The next book you would do in full would be
the co authoring of a novel based on the Korean
War called Elwood's Odyssey. What was the germination of that?
Speaker 6 (10:27):
So Elwood's Odyssey is that's an odyssey you know of
itself so to speak. That was conceived by my friend
and co author JD.
Speaker 7 (10:35):
Weaver.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
He actually conceived the book before I was even born,
and it was just after I had self published The
Hidden History of Sacramento Baseball that he started messaging me saying,
I've got an idea for a novel which I like
to help me wriote. It's based on the Korean War.
And it ended up working out great because then pandemic
and lockdown hit, and you know, I lost a little
bit of income, so I was able to stay afloat financially.
Speaker 7 (10:59):
You know, helped him write this novel, and.
Speaker 6 (11:02):
I was honestly surprised at how well it turned out,
because I told myself for years I would never write
a novel, but this but Elw's honesty, even though it
centers around fictional characters. It incorporates a lot of fascinating
and often overlooked history. It includes the Korean War, it
incorporates actually more Pacific Coast League baseball history. I was
(11:22):
able to build on that proclivity from my first book,
and it's just it was a really, really interesting journey,
and I'm grateful to have had that chance, and it
turned out a lot better than I could have imagined.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Has that changed any of your thoughts about in the
future writing novels, You know.
Speaker 7 (11:40):
That is a great question. I think about that a lot.
Speaker 6 (11:43):
My preference is non fiction by far, but I cannot
rule out doing another novel. It would probably be another
situation maybe where someone recruits me, because I don't see
myself conceiving a novel, right, you know, just entirely on
my own. But I know I can collaborate at least,
so we'll see, we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Your biography mentions video games. Is that something that was
a passion of yours and remains your passion of yours
growing up? And now?
Speaker 6 (12:13):
Oh yes, absolutely very much so. A big video game guy.
My friend Terry Randolph and I he's a close friend
of mine, lives in Sacramento. The co founded a gaming
blog called Last Token Gaming in twenty thirteen and still
running strong. And so, yeah, gaming is I've written a
lot of reviews about that and.
Speaker 7 (12:33):
In other places.
Speaker 6 (12:34):
It's a big part of my creative process. And I'm
even actually making a game with another friend named Alice.
So that's a whole other story, a whole other endevor there.
But yeah, gaming is a big part of my big
hobby and a big part of my writing and like
I said, brainstorming process.
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Speaker 2 (15:19):
Our guest is Marshall Garvey. His new book is Interstate
eighty five, The Royals, the Cardinals and the Show Me
World Series. It's obviously an anniversary year for that particular
World Series. Forty years on, a lot of celebrations at
Kaufman Stadium and the like, and it's obviously known nationally,
maybe more for the just one call in it, but
(15:40):
of course for Cardinals fans, for Royals fans, they remember
far more of the details. Forty years on now it's
been explored in many different ways. What was the inspiration
for you to revisit this fascinating topic.
Speaker 6 (15:53):
Well, that was prompted. For one, it was prompted by
history itself. It was April fifteenth, twenty twenty. It was
a month into lockdown again. I've already finished the Sacrament
of Baseball book. I started writing a novel. I know,
I got to get hunkered down, and I knew and
I have a lot more time to write on my hand,
so I thought, I got to get to my next
baseball book. My friend Jay Daniels writing a book about
(16:15):
the eighty two World Series at that time. That's Cardinals
and Brewers. So that's the beginning of my train of thought.
On my daily run and I go to eighty five and.
Speaker 7 (16:22):
It just hit me right then and there.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
I was like, wait a minute, eighty five Royals, Cardinals,
no one's really written about this. I've known about the
eighty five World Series since I was a kid, you know,
like being especially in a baseball history and world series history,
and it always kind of stuck in my mind in
a weird way because everyone just situates on the call.
But I was like, started on this run, it started really.
Speaker 7 (16:45):
Thinking about it.
Speaker 6 (16:45):
I was like, there's got to be more to this
World series than just Stinkmier's call.
Speaker 7 (16:49):
It's always kind of bugged me. There's gotta be more.
So I basically just I conceived. I basically decided that.
Speaker 6 (16:55):
Would be my dream. I'm going to write the definitive
book about the I seventy series. I'm going to find
and a lot of great stories, especially by interviewing players,
and to make a very long story short, it was
a lifetime in itself writing this book.
Speaker 7 (17:09):
Honestly, that turned out to be.
Speaker 6 (17:10):
True, and the eighty five series really is a jem
that has so much more than just one errant call.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
You mentioned the interviews, and you've done almost thirty new interviews.
Talk about flagging down all the subjects, from George Brett
to Don Danka jer himself, Mark Ubaza, Ricky Horton, on
and on.
Speaker 6 (17:28):
Oh, it was an absolute joy. I conducted all my
interviews in twenty twenty one and then twenty twenty three.
Speaker 7 (17:36):
It was just amazing.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
I basically and I did twenties. I did them all,
you know, remotely, twenty six by phone and one by
email basically in a sense, taking me all around the
country to find where everyone was.
Speaker 7 (17:51):
It would come in different ways. Some people are just
easy to get through by email.
Speaker 6 (17:54):
Others I was Facebook friends, but it's like I had
been Facebook Friends with Jim Sundbergh for.
Speaker 7 (17:57):
A long time, and so that was that.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
Others like, you know, a lot of networking and connecting,
like can interview Frank White. My last interview, I had
to submit a form on the Jackson County government website
Jackson County Executive. So getting each one came in generally
different ways and at different times, but each one was
an absolute joy.
Speaker 7 (18:21):
And it was especially.
Speaker 6 (18:22):
After spending so long developing the book in twenty twenty,
during quarantine and all that, to start talking to these
guys and for all these people and getting their stories
was just.
Speaker 7 (18:33):
A dream come true. I wouldn't trade it in for anything.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Was there anyone who surprised you with the depth of
their information or funny stories or interesting personality that you
might not have expected.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
Oh. Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
A big rule of thumb I found was that the
lesser known or like forgotten guys had some of the
best stories and the most detailed ones. One example would
be a Kirk kept Shire, a starting pitcher for the Cardinals.
He was left off the playoff roster entirely for the
eight to five postseason, but he ended up having one
of the best and most moving stories where he described
(19:06):
his regret over not being able to pitch Game five
of the eighty five series and his guilt over watching
Bob forsch Ge get shelled by the Royals, And he
told me he believes to say if he had pitched
that game, that would have been the end of the series.
Joe beckwe Royal's reliever, rust his soul. I talked to
him just two weeks before he died of colon cancer. Boy,
(19:27):
he told me a story about how Sandy Kopax helped
turn around his season in nineteen.
Speaker 7 (19:31):
Eighty five, and I'm very confident he never told that
to anyone else. So Yeah, the all.
Speaker 6 (19:37):
Twenty seven were great. They all had unique stories and
perspectives and wording. But I did find that it was
the lesser known guides that had the most, that honestly
had some of the best stories, and that just blew
me away.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
One of the interesting dynamics of this time, as you
mentioned the call, which isn't the biggest thing, but you know,
has taken on a life of its own, is that
Don Denkinger has we even woven a path of you know,
probably real regret to acceptance to celebrity almost and he
release has kind of embraced the mistake.
Speaker 7 (20:13):
Oh absolutely well.
Speaker 6 (20:14):
I detail that in the book, particularly at the beginning
of chapter eleven, like he came home to his house
in Waterloo.
Speaker 7 (20:20):
Iowa, to find that there was tons of hate mail,
tons of crane calls.
Speaker 6 (20:24):
You know, it was really stressful for him and his family,
but he got wise to it. He realized the call
was not going to go down the memory hole, so
he started just embracing it. He started doing speeches all
around the Midwest, and as the you know, he still
had a lot.
Speaker 7 (20:36):
Of umpiring to do.
Speaker 6 (20:37):
But after he retired in nineteen ninety eight, then he
starts going to events in Saint Louis. You know, he
starts going to reunion events with the eighty five Cardinals.
No one could have predicted that back in eighty five.
He even goes to a Royals reunion in twenty fifteen.
So Don, like, you know, he didn't deserve to be
crucified for one call. I really don't think that's the
thing that costs the Cardinals that series or even that game.
(21:00):
But Don, was this a great guy out a blast
interviewing him and the way that he embraced the call,
and you know, yeah, like you said, is just embrace
his own mystique, you know, and was good natured about it.
Speaker 7 (21:12):
I really respected that about him.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Do you find that in talking to the Cardinals that
maybe the fact that they just absolutely got annihilated in
Game seven made the call less significant to them or not?
Speaker 6 (21:26):
It kind of varied from person to person. For the
most part, I got a really interesting variety of reflections
on eighty five as far as the call is concerned.
Ricky Horton just told me he thinks the Cardinals should
have just won Game six even with the call.
Speaker 7 (21:43):
And they had many chances to do so.
Speaker 6 (21:45):
After the fact that He's right about that, and I
described that in great detail in the book. Others are
just kind of balanced. Jeff Lottie, another reliever, told me
he was just happy to be there. He had already
wont to ring in eighty two and he got to
see it from the losing side in eighty five, and
he just said.
Speaker 7 (22:00):
It was a blessing to be there. So I think
I kind of I know eighty five is a.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Deep wound for a lot of the eighty five Cardinals
and a lot of fans, but the ones I talked to,
for the most part, seemed pretty tempered about it.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Now, of course, you're not going to do a book
about the eighty five World Series without talking to George Brett.
He's an imposing personality and still in an iconic figure
in Kansas City Baseball and he's around all the time.
Anything unusual or different about speaking with him.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
Well, I mean, just talking to someone that legendary, I mean,
that's life changing. I still it's been four years since
I interviewed George, and I just not come down from
that and the fact that he was so eager to talk,
I still leave me speechless. George was a great interview. Obviously,
(22:50):
it was, you know, super exciting.
Speaker 7 (22:52):
Maybe a little anxiety and you seem.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
To talk to someone so so legendary. I particularly loved
his perspectives on the royals renaissance in twenty fourteen and fifteen, which.
Speaker 7 (23:03):
I write about in the last chapter of the book.
Speaker 6 (23:05):
I loved his stories about seeing all the alumni come
back during twenty fourteen, and you know, his speech at
the twenty fifteen parade. Those were my favorite moments from
George because it showed how proud he is to be
a lifelong Royal and how much that renaissance meant to him.
Speaker 7 (23:21):
I thought that was really special.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Well, I think it was important to him and to
the members of the eighty five World Series the World
Series team, because because the roads were bad so often subsequently,
they just kept trotting out the eighty five guys as
their only moment of glory, and they needed some They
needed some other glory in order to take you know,
they probably got a little weary of it.
Speaker 6 (23:43):
Oh, absolutely, well, I mean, gosh, I can relate to that.
Speaker 7 (23:47):
Being from a Dodgers family.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
How long we had to live off of Kirk Gibson
until Freddie Freeman, you know, mirrored and exhumed.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
That more or less last year. Yeah, I do think
Kansas City got pretty.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
Weary of having to just live off of the Dane
or shit and all that. And Steve Farr actually told me,
and this is in the book too, Steve far said,
once the Royals won it again, he said, all of
a sudden, it seemed like they didn't have I mean,
of course they have the fortieth anniversary reunion this year,
but Steve Farr said, like, wow, it seems like they
don't have us for reunions as much now. It's like, yeah,
thirty years was a little long to keep us around. Yeah,
(24:19):
it was it was time to pass the torch.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I have to ask you, and we'll get back to
the book in some details about it here to conclude,
but let me ask you about what Sacramento baseball having
it as a major league year or two or three
or we don't know going on right now. It must
be an incredibly interesting, weird dynamic. The A's have been surprising,
(24:42):
or the Athletics that that's all they're called now. You know,
they were really good at early and then they were
terrible for a while, and now they're you know, playing
good baseball and there's a lot of exciting young players.
It must be kind of a cool thing for Sacramento.
Speaker 6 (24:57):
It really is, and it's obviously overshadowed by all the
with John Fisher and just how what he did to Oakland.
That's obviously a separate discussion, but.
Speaker 7 (25:06):
It's still undeniably cool.
Speaker 6 (25:08):
As I always say to everyone, whenever you think of
the whole situation and when we all gree John Fisher's
terrible and Oakland deserves better.
Speaker 7 (25:15):
But Sacramento has.
Speaker 6 (25:16):
Always been a great baseball town since before the Civil War.
Speaker 7 (25:19):
So like for all of the.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
Weirdness and complexities of it having major League Baseball and Sacramento,
you can't, can't, and I the River City deserves it.
So it's still pretty pretty pretty special.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
So tell me about how people access the book Coorse,
I'm looking at Amazon. That's the where anybody can always
get a book. That's a good thing, that's always a
good go to, and I imagine this is going to
be you'll probably spend some time in the Midwest doing
book signings. I wrote a book that was centered around
well part of it was centered around the fourteen and
fifteen World Series, which I covered, and so I did
a lot of speaking, including fortunately at the Baseball Hall
(25:52):
of Fame. But tell me about what your plans are
now that the book is out and how people can
access it.
Speaker 6 (26:00):
Well, first, you can access it through any major bookseller, Amazon,
Barnes and Noble, whatever your preference. It's published by University
of Missouri Press, great people, great publisher. You can get
it through their store as well. I've got many plans
for it. The main thing right now is to get
a paperback edition as soon as possible, and then after
that focused on getting the audio book. But I have
(26:21):
a lot of events, a lot of speaking events and
engagements planned on podcasts and radio stations.
Speaker 7 (26:29):
All the time.
Speaker 6 (26:30):
I actually did a panel in Columbia, Missouri a few
months ago with Darren Hellwedge, a great radio host in Columbia,
and I plan on coming back to Kansas City and
Missouri whenever i can.
Speaker 7 (26:41):
And I'm aiming to, just like you, speak.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
At the Baseball Hall of Fame as part of their
Author's Speaker series next year.
Speaker 7 (26:48):
So yeah, that's a lot of this.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
Book has long legs, you know, not just for the
four year anniversary, but just periods.
Speaker 7 (26:54):
So yeah, just all in on the push for paperback
again to everyone.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
You can get it through any bookseller you like it,
of a good review there on Amazon or good Reads
and be part of this amazing journey. I'm really really
grateful to pull the story of eighty five.
Speaker 7 (27:08):
I'm glad to see the book doing well.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Well through the pandemic and all the interviews and everything else.
It sounds like it's been an absolutely wonderful experience to
look back on, hasn't it.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
Oh yes, it's emotional. The five year journey was so
so challenging, so amazing.
Speaker 7 (27:27):
Couldn't describe it all on one go. Actually, I'm going.
Speaker 6 (27:30):
To write an article at last Token Gaming telling the
story of how of how that journey went, but that's
for another day. But yeah, looking back, I'm just blessed,
and I'm especially blessed to call the eighty five Royals friends.
Got to meet them at the Union Station reunion in
May and that was just a blest.
Speaker 7 (27:48):
So yeah, I'm very grateful.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
We hope you enjoyed the latest Danny Kling Scale Reasonably
irreverent podcast. Come back soon for something fresh and new.
This podcast was made possible by our great sponsors like
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Handle with honesty and craftsmanship. Visit them at Easternroofing dot com.
Welcome to the Danny Clinkscale, Reasonably Irreverent podcast, insightful and
witty commentary, probing interviews and detours from the beaten.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Path, Welcome to Kansas City Profiles presented by Easton Roofing,
and a Fascinating trip down Baseball Memory Lane with Marshall Garvey.
He is a writer with over two decades of experience.
He's a baseball historian, He's a historian period and his
new book is Interstate eighty five The Royals, the Cardinals
(00:35):
and the Show Me World Series and it has received
a lot of praise. He did twenty seven different interviews
with the participants in the World Series and those around it,
and it's really an outstanding book out this year and
he'll be in the Kansas City area a few times
to promote it. He also has a background in other
baseball endeavors, including The Hidden History of Sacramento Baseball that
(00:56):
is his native area and it captures the overlook history
of the sport in California's capital. And he also co
authored a novel based on the Korean War, Elwood's Odyssey,
with his friend J. D.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Weaver.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
He works full time as an immigration case writer and
lives in the Greater Sacramento area in Citrus Heights, California.
It's the fortieth anniversary of the eighty five World Series,
and this is chronicled in a brand new way, in
an in depth way, and it's a lot of fun
to talk to Marshall Garvey. It's a great storyteller, a
lot of baseball to consume. Right here, Marshall Garvey is
(01:31):
our Kansas City profile presented by Eastern Roofing.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
More of Danny's Reasonably Irreverend podcast after this.
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Speaker 3 (04:23):
Look forward to working with you.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Marshall. You were born in southern California, but you're really
a Northern California person and often spent time in Truckee, California.
I'm a golf fan, so I'm familiar with that. They
play a PGA Tour event in Truckee. Actually, so I know.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
I know that.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
That's what I know about Trucky. But tell me about
being a young boy growing up in No Cow.
Speaker 6 (04:45):
Uh, Well, just a really comfortable living Trucky especially, I
got to grow up with authentic snow, and I realize
a lot of people in the state, especially down south.
Speaker 7 (04:55):
Have never experienced that. So yeah, just a.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
Really comfortable, happy childhood growing again of grown up primarily
and Sacramento. Came of age there in the two thousands,
still live in the Sacramento.
Speaker 7 (05:08):
Area, so very very stable up bringing.
Speaker 6 (05:12):
Growing up in Sacramento's is a really good calm place
to live and seen all of my endeavor's take off here,
including being an author and baseball historians.
Speaker 7 (05:20):
So happy living here.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Now, obviously you're a baseball historian. We'll talk about the
great book Interstate eighty five and in a little bit.
But did you play much baseball when you're a kid.
Speaker 7 (05:33):
That's the thing I didn't. I definitely played some.
Speaker 6 (05:36):
T ball when I was really young, but no, I
did not, excuse me, not.
Speaker 7 (05:42):
A proper baseball player. I have played.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
Vintage baseball by eighteen sixties rules with some friends. We
do that every now and then, right, But no, I
was not a baseball player like in high school or college.
I'm very much a baseball nerd a baseball Historian's that's
the role I fell in the overall scheme of things.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well, I fit into that too, although I did play baseball.
But anyway, so when as you were growing up, what
was your thought process I don't know, seven, eight, nine,
ten years old. Did you have dreams and aspirations of
doing something besides what you did? Or you were always
thinking about being a writer and a historian.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
Well, it's funny you ass around that specific age range.
I actually really wanted to be a pharmacist when I
was a kid.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I don't know if I've ever heard I don't know
if I've ever heard anybody say that.
Speaker 7 (06:32):
Very esoteric.
Speaker 6 (06:33):
Indeed, because my dad worked as a pharmacist, my grandfather,
his father worked as a pharmacist. A lot of pharmaceutical
and pharmacists and doctors in.
Speaker 7 (06:42):
My family, especially on my dad's side.
Speaker 6 (06:45):
But I think being a writer took off more in
the early two thousands, when I was in middle school,
I really got into movies and started writing movie reviews, right,
So that really, I think that's what really cemented in
my mind how much I loved writing and expanded my
repertoire to write about many other things, including baseball in
the years to come.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
So when I was coming time to head to college,
what was your thought process then, Well, when it came.
Speaker 6 (07:11):
Time to add to college, Well, I started out in
junior college not really.
Speaker 7 (07:15):
Knowing what to do.
Speaker 6 (07:17):
I graduated high school in two thousand and eight, which
is the year of the Great Recession and all that,
and I think I had vague ideas maybe being a
journalism major, but it really wasn't clicking there, you know.
I just there wasn't a journalism school in nearby. I
think the closest was like University of Nevada Reno. But
then I reoriented it.
Speaker 7 (07:37):
I thought, what if I become a history major.
Speaker 6 (07:39):
I love history. That's a very innaging thing that goes
back to my childhood as well. My dad and works
as a history teaching He's done that for a long time.
So I reoriented and became a history major. Transferred to UC.
Speaker 7 (07:51):
Davis and that really was kind of another big piece
of the puzzle.
Speaker 6 (07:57):
You know, improved my historical understanding, improved my writing, and
as luck would have it, I got a history writing
internship just before I graduated UC Davis, so that worked
out really nicely.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Well, you would go on to write a novel about
the Korean War, so that obviously fits in. We'll talk
a little bit about that. So you go to UC Davis,
you graduate, you get this internship. Is where does the
path take you?
Speaker 7 (08:20):
Now?
Speaker 6 (08:22):
Well, that internship was based on an idea for a
book about the history of baseball and Sacramento. The original
plan was that I would write it for the Sacramento
Historical Society, but eventually, around the time I actually got
promoted from intern to being a member of the board
of directors, they officially decided to just let me have
(08:43):
the book for my own like, not for the Historical Society.
So that became The Hidden History of Sacramento Baseball, which
I self published through Amazon KDP in twenty nineteen. And
that was my first book, and I really showed that
Sacramento has been a pioneer for baseball in California since
before the Civil War, hasn't really gotten the credit that
(09:05):
it deserves for that.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Hopefully well, now Sacramento probably is undervalued in many ways.
But tell us a few nuggets about Sacramento baseball, which
of course now is enjoying Major League Baseball.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Oh well, Sacramento baseball, there's so many great milestones. They
hosted the first Sacramento hosted the first league game in
Pacific Coast League history in March of nineteen oh three.
Sacramento had night baseball, five years before.
Speaker 7 (09:31):
The majors did. Sacramento. The Sacramento Solon Senators.
Speaker 6 (09:36):
Had a night game in nineteen thirty and of course
the first night game in MLB was nineteen thirty five
at Crosley Field in Cincinnati. Many great players were born
in Sacramento.
Speaker 7 (09:46):
Or grew up here.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
As I discussed with others, you could put together a
World Series team out of Sacramento grown players, and Dusty Baker,
Larry Boa, Steve sachs Now, Brad Lidge, Bob and ken
Ford Bob of course Germaine in the Cheney five, which
we'll get to.
Speaker 7 (10:04):
Yeah, Sacramento's just an overlooked pioneer and baseball training ground,
and now that it's.
Speaker 6 (10:09):
Got Major League baseball whirredess that situation is, you know,
I should get some more attention.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Now, let's talk a little bit about the historical aspect.
The next book you would do in full would be
the co authoring of a novel based on the Korean
War called Elwood's Odyssey. What was the germination of that?
Speaker 6 (10:27):
So Elwood's Odyssey is that's an odyssey you know of
itself so to speak. That was conceived by my friend
and co author JD.
Speaker 7 (10:35):
Weaver.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
He actually conceived the book before I was even born,
and it was just after I had self published The
Hidden History of Sacramento Baseball that he started messaging me saying,
I've got an idea for a novel which I like
to help me wriote. It's based on the Korean War.
And it ended up working out great because then pandemic
and lockdown hit, and you know, I lost a little
bit of income, so I was able to stay afloat financially.
Speaker 7 (10:59):
You know, helped him write this novel, and.
Speaker 6 (11:02):
I was honestly surprised at how well it turned out,
because I told myself for years I would never write
a novel, but this but Elw's honesty, even though it
centers around fictional characters. It incorporates a lot of fascinating
and often overlooked history. It includes the Korean War, it
incorporates actually more Pacific Coast League baseball history. I was
(11:22):
able to build on that proclivity from my first book,
and it's just it was a really, really interesting journey,
and I'm grateful to have had that chance, and it
turned out a lot better than I could have imagined.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Has that changed any of your thoughts about in the
future writing novels, You know.
Speaker 7 (11:40):
That is a great question. I think about that a lot.
Speaker 6 (11:43):
My preference is non fiction by far, but I cannot
rule out doing another novel. It would probably be another
situation maybe where someone recruits me, because I don't see
myself conceiving a novel, right, you know, just entirely on
my own. But I know I can collaborate at least,
so we'll see, we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Your biography mentions video games. Is that something that was
a passion of yours and remains your passion of yours
growing up? And now?
Speaker 6 (12:13):
Oh yes, absolutely very much so. A big video game guy.
My friend Terry Randolph and I he's a close friend
of mine, lives in Sacramento. The co founded a gaming
blog called Last Token Gaming in twenty thirteen and still
running strong. And so, yeah, gaming is I've written a
lot of reviews about that and.
Speaker 7 (12:33):
In other places.
Speaker 6 (12:34):
It's a big part of my creative process. And I'm
even actually making a game with another friend named Alice.
So that's a whole other story, a whole other endevor there.
But yeah, gaming is a big part of my big
hobby and a big part of my writing and like
I said, brainstorming process.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
More of Danny's Reasonably Irreverend podcast after this.
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Speaker 8 (13:39):
Oh Danny, this is a really exciting time at the brewery.
We're starting at New Bryn Saturdays and Sundays, starting at
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Speaker 2 (15:19):
Our guest is Marshall Garvey. His new book is Interstate
eighty five, The Royals, the Cardinals and the Show Me
World Series. It's obviously an anniversary year for that particular
World Series. Forty years on, a lot of celebrations at
Kaufman Stadium and the like, and it's obviously known nationally,
maybe more for the just one call in it, but
(15:40):
of course for Cardinals fans, for Royals fans, they remember
far more of the details. Forty years on now it's
been explored in many different ways. What was the inspiration
for you to revisit this fascinating topic.
Speaker 6 (15:53):
Well, that was prompted. For one, it was prompted by
history itself. It was April fifteenth, twenty twenty. It was
a month into lockdown again. I've already finished the Sacrament
of Baseball book. I started writing a novel. I know,
I got to get hunkered down, and I knew and
I have a lot more time to write on my hand,
so I thought, I got to get to my next
baseball book. My friend Jay Daniels writing a book about
(16:15):
the eighty two World Series at that time. That's Cardinals
and Brewers. So that's the beginning of my train of thought.
On my daily run and I go to eighty five and.
Speaker 7 (16:22):
It just hit me right then and there.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
I was like, wait a minute, eighty five Royals, Cardinals,
no one's really written about this. I've known about the
eighty five World Series since I was a kid, you know,
like being especially in a baseball history and world series history,
and it always kind of stuck in my mind in
a weird way because everyone just situates on the call.
But I was like, started on this run, it started really.
Speaker 7 (16:45):
Thinking about it.
Speaker 6 (16:45):
I was like, there's got to be more to this
World series than just Stinkmier's call.
Speaker 7 (16:49):
It's always kind of bugged me. There's gotta be more.
So I basically just I conceived. I basically decided that.
Speaker 6 (16:55):
Would be my dream. I'm going to write the definitive
book about the I seventy series. I'm going to find
and a lot of great stories, especially by interviewing players,
and to make a very long story short, it was
a lifetime in itself writing this book.
Speaker 7 (17:09):
Honestly, that turned out to be.
Speaker 6 (17:10):
True, and the eighty five series really is a jem
that has so much more than just one errant call.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
You mentioned the interviews, and you've done almost thirty new interviews.
Talk about flagging down all the subjects, from George Brett
to Don Danka jer himself, Mark Ubaza, Ricky Horton, on
and on.
Speaker 6 (17:28):
Oh, it was an absolute joy. I conducted all my
interviews in twenty twenty one and then twenty twenty three.
Speaker 7 (17:36):
It was just amazing.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
I basically and I did twenties. I did them all,
you know, remotely, twenty six by phone and one by
email basically in a sense, taking me all around the
country to find where everyone was.
Speaker 7 (17:51):
It would come in different ways. Some people are just
easy to get through by email.
Speaker 6 (17:54):
Others I was Facebook friends, but it's like I had
been Facebook Friends with Jim Sundbergh for.
Speaker 7 (17:57):
A long time, and so that was that.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
Others like, you know, a lot of networking and connecting,
like can interview Frank White. My last interview, I had
to submit a form on the Jackson County government website
Jackson County Executive. So getting each one came in generally
different ways and at different times, but each one was
an absolute joy.
Speaker 7 (18:21):
And it was especially.
Speaker 6 (18:22):
After spending so long developing the book in twenty twenty,
during quarantine and all that, to start talking to these
guys and for all these people and getting their stories
was just.
Speaker 7 (18:33):
A dream come true. I wouldn't trade it in for anything.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Was there anyone who surprised you with the depth of
their information or funny stories or interesting personality that you
might not have expected.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
Oh. Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
A big rule of thumb I found was that the
lesser known or like forgotten guys had some of the
best stories and the most detailed ones. One example would
be a Kirk kept Shire, a starting pitcher for the Cardinals.
He was left off the playoff roster entirely for the
eight to five postseason, but he ended up having one
of the best and most moving stories where he described
(19:06):
his regret over not being able to pitch Game five
of the eighty five series and his guilt over watching
Bob forsch Ge get shelled by the Royals, And he
told me he believes to say if he had pitched
that game, that would have been the end of the series.
Joe beckwe Royal's reliever, rust his soul. I talked to
him just two weeks before he died of colon cancer. Boy,
(19:27):
he told me a story about how Sandy Kopax helped
turn around his season in nineteen.
Speaker 7 (19:31):
Eighty five, and I'm very confident he never told that
to anyone else. So Yeah, the all.
Speaker 6 (19:37):
Twenty seven were great. They all had unique stories and
perspectives and wording. But I did find that it was
the lesser known guides that had the most, that honestly
had some of the best stories, and that just blew
me away.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
One of the interesting dynamics of this time, as you
mentioned the call, which isn't the biggest thing, but you know,
has taken on a life of its own, is that
Don Denkinger has we even woven a path of you know,
probably real regret to acceptance to celebrity almost and he
release has kind of embraced the mistake.
Speaker 7 (20:13):
Oh absolutely well.
Speaker 6 (20:14):
I detail that in the book, particularly at the beginning
of chapter eleven, like he came home to his house
in Waterloo.
Speaker 7 (20:20):
Iowa, to find that there was tons of hate mail,
tons of crane calls.
Speaker 6 (20:24):
You know, it was really stressful for him and his family,
but he got wise to it. He realized the call
was not going to go down the memory hole, so
he started just embracing it. He started doing speeches all
around the Midwest, and as the you know, he still
had a lot.
Speaker 7 (20:36):
Of umpiring to do.
Speaker 6 (20:37):
But after he retired in nineteen ninety eight, then he
starts going to events in Saint Louis. You know, he
starts going to reunion events with the eighty five Cardinals.
No one could have predicted that back in eighty five.
He even goes to a Royals reunion in twenty fifteen.
So Don, like, you know, he didn't deserve to be
crucified for one call. I really don't think that's the
thing that costs the Cardinals that series or even that game.
(21:00):
But Don, was this a great guy out a blast
interviewing him and the way that he embraced the call,
and you know, yeah, like you said, is just embrace
his own mystique, you know, and was good natured about it.
Speaker 7 (21:12):
I really respected that about him.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Do you find that in talking to the Cardinals that
maybe the fact that they just absolutely got annihilated in
Game seven made the call less significant to them or not?
Speaker 6 (21:26):
It kind of varied from person to person. For the
most part, I got a really interesting variety of reflections
on eighty five as far as the call is concerned.
Ricky Horton just told me he thinks the Cardinals should
have just won Game six even with the call.
Speaker 7 (21:43):
And they had many chances to do so.
Speaker 6 (21:45):
After the fact that He's right about that, and I
described that in great detail in the book. Others are
just kind of balanced. Jeff Lottie, another reliever, told me
he was just happy to be there. He had already
wont to ring in eighty two and he got to
see it from the losing side in eighty five, and
he just said.
Speaker 7 (22:00):
It was a blessing to be there. So I think
I kind of I know eighty five is a.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Deep wound for a lot of the eighty five Cardinals
and a lot of fans, but the ones I talked to,
for the most part, seemed pretty tempered about it.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Now, of course, you're not going to do a book
about the eighty five World Series without talking to George Brett.
He's an imposing personality and still in an iconic figure
in Kansas City Baseball and he's around all the time.
Anything unusual or different about speaking with him.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
Well, I mean, just talking to someone that legendary, I mean,
that's life changing. I still it's been four years since
I interviewed George, and I just not come down from
that and the fact that he was so eager to talk,
I still leave me speechless. George was a great interview. Obviously,
(22:50):
it was, you know, super exciting.
Speaker 7 (22:52):
Maybe a little anxiety and you seem.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
To talk to someone so so legendary. I particularly loved
his perspectives on the royals renaissance in twenty fourteen and fifteen, which.
Speaker 7 (23:03):
I write about in the last chapter of the book.
Speaker 6 (23:05):
I loved his stories about seeing all the alumni come
back during twenty fourteen, and you know, his speech at
the twenty fifteen parade. Those were my favorite moments from
George because it showed how proud he is to be
a lifelong Royal and how much that renaissance meant to him.
Speaker 7 (23:21):
I thought that was really special.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Well, I think it was important to him and to
the members of the eighty five World Series the World
Series team, because because the roads were bad so often subsequently,
they just kept trotting out the eighty five guys as
their only moment of glory, and they needed some They
needed some other glory in order to take you know,
they probably got a little weary of it.
Speaker 6 (23:43):
Oh, absolutely, well, I mean, gosh, I can relate to that.
Speaker 7 (23:47):
Being from a Dodgers family.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
How long we had to live off of Kirk Gibson
until Freddie Freeman, you know, mirrored and exhumed.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
That more or less last year. Yeah, I do think
Kansas City got pretty.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
Weary of having to just live off of the Dane
or shit and all that. And Steve Farr actually told me,
and this is in the book too, Steve far said,
once the Royals won it again, he said, all of
a sudden, it seemed like they didn't have I mean,
of course they have the fortieth anniversary reunion this year,
but Steve Farr said, like, wow, it seems like they
don't have us for reunions as much now. It's like, yeah,
thirty years was a little long to keep us around. Yeah,
(24:19):
it was it was time to pass the torch.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I have to ask you, and we'll get back to
the book in some details about it here to conclude,
but let me ask you about what Sacramento baseball having
it as a major league year or two or three
or we don't know going on right now. It must
be an incredibly interesting, weird dynamic. The A's have been surprising,
(24:42):
or the Athletics that that's all they're called now. You know,
they were really good at early and then they were
terrible for a while, and now they're you know, playing
good baseball and there's a lot of exciting young players.
It must be kind of a cool thing for Sacramento.
Speaker 6 (24:57):
It really is, and it's obviously overshadowed by all the
with John Fisher and just how what he did to Oakland.
That's obviously a separate discussion, but.
Speaker 7 (25:06):
It's still undeniably cool.
Speaker 6 (25:08):
As I always say to everyone, whenever you think of
the whole situation and when we all gree John Fisher's
terrible and Oakland deserves better.
Speaker 7 (25:15):
But Sacramento has.
Speaker 6 (25:16):
Always been a great baseball town since before the Civil War.
Speaker 7 (25:19):
So like for all of the.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
Weirdness and complexities of it having major League Baseball and Sacramento,
you can't, can't, and I the River City deserves it.
So it's still pretty pretty pretty special.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
So tell me about how people access the book Coorse,
I'm looking at Amazon. That's the where anybody can always
get a book. That's a good thing, that's always a
good go to, and I imagine this is going to
be you'll probably spend some time in the Midwest doing
book signings. I wrote a book that was centered around
well part of it was centered around the fourteen and
fifteen World Series, which I covered, and so I did
a lot of speaking, including fortunately at the Baseball Hall
(25:52):
of Fame. But tell me about what your plans are
now that the book is out and how people can
access it.
Speaker 6 (26:00):
Well, first, you can access it through any major bookseller, Amazon,
Barnes and Noble, whatever your preference. It's published by University
of Missouri Press, great people, great publisher. You can get
it through their store as well. I've got many plans
for it. The main thing right now is to get
a paperback edition as soon as possible, and then after
that focused on getting the audio book. But I have
(26:21):
a lot of events, a lot of speaking events and
engagements planned on podcasts and radio stations.
Speaker 7 (26:29):
All the time.
Speaker 6 (26:30):
I actually did a panel in Columbia, Missouri a few
months ago with Darren Hellwedge, a great radio host in Columbia,
and I plan on coming back to Kansas City and
Missouri whenever i can.
Speaker 7 (26:41):
And I'm aiming to, just like you, speak.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
At the Baseball Hall of Fame as part of their
Author's Speaker series next year.
Speaker 7 (26:48):
So yeah, that's a lot of this.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
Book has long legs, you know, not just for the
four year anniversary, but just periods.
Speaker 7 (26:54):
So yeah, just all in on the push for paperback
again to everyone.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
You can get it through any bookseller you like it,
of a good review there on Amazon or good Reads
and be part of this amazing journey. I'm really really
grateful to pull the story of eighty five.
Speaker 7 (27:08):
I'm glad to see the book doing well.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Well through the pandemic and all the interviews and everything else.
It sounds like it's been an absolutely wonderful experience to
look back on, hasn't it.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
Oh yes, it's emotional. The five year journey was so
so challenging, so amazing.
Speaker 7 (27:27):
Couldn't describe it all on one go. Actually, I'm going.
Speaker 6 (27:30):
To write an article at last Token Gaming telling the
story of how of how that journey went, but that's
for another day. But yeah, looking back, I'm just blessed,
and I'm especially blessed to call the eighty five Royals friends.
Got to meet them at the Union Station reunion in
May and that was just a blest.
Speaker 7 (27:48):
So yeah, I'm very grateful.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
We hope you enjoyed the latest Danny Kling Scale Reasonably
irreverent podcast. Come back soon for something fresh and new.
This podcast was made possible by our great sponsors like
Eastern Roofing, where integrity matters. Joe Spiker and his team
are the best in the business for all your roofing needs.
(28:23):
Handle with honesty and craftsmanship. Visit them at Easternroofing dot com.
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