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January 25, 2022 • 40 mins
Toolbox Killers expert, Laura Brand, returns to Dark Dark World! Jordan asks Laura about the making of her documentary, The Toolbox Killer, before answering some listener questions and looking ahead to Laura's upcoming projects.

Follow Laura Brand on Instagram: @siren_of_san_quentin

Music by Jordan Crittenden

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hello, listeners, welcome back toDark Dark World. I'm your host,
Jordan Crittenden and it's my great privilegetoday to welcome back to the podcast The
Siren of San Quentin, the SerialKiller Whisperer investigator Laura Brand. Laura,

(00:25):
welcome back, and thank you forjoining me. Oh, thank you for
having me. And it was suchan introduction. Thank you well. Always
a pleasure, So very happy thatwe could talk again. Yeah, the
first podcast I've gone back on afterpeople have seen the doc Oh is that
right? Cool? Yeah, soit's really cool and I'm excited to answer

(00:47):
someone like the viewers questions. Yeah. Yeah, they're pretty into it.
So it's one of the I thinkmost commented on episodes that I've done was
our previous interview, so a lotof traction on it. So that's cool.
Awesome. Well, so last wespoke when you came on before,
I don't think you had started shootingthe documentary yet. The documentary, by

(01:10):
the way, Listeners, is calledThe Toolbox Killer Singular, and we just
discussed before the recording that it isavailable on Peacock and Oxygen as well as
Hulu Premium, so you could checkit out there. But so you were
gearing up for that, you wereexcited, and so how did the process

(01:30):
of making it go, Like didit live up to your expectations and your
excitement? Oh yeah, I justloved it. I wish we had more
time, and you know, wedidn't get to cover by investigation. It's
the case, the new findings Ifound. But you know, it was
really you know, we had tocover the whole case, my interviews of

(01:51):
Vinegar and the trial. It's somassive, it's massive amounts, you know,
fit into an hour and twenty nineminutes. But we did a really
good job of getting it all compriseddown to that. We are it's a
different production company. I'm actually partneringup now with FT Productions. It's run
by the Clemente Brothers or FBI profilers. Um, they did the show Criminal

(02:13):
Minds. We're now going to bepitching a series for the next series which
is focused on the investigation of thecase, the new findings and the searches
for the girls as our hope forit. Uh huh okay, So that
that that was going to be oneof the big questions, right that a
lot of people have asked about,like, well, you know, I
thought that they were going to goand try and find the remains and stuff,

(02:36):
and that didn't happen, so peoplefelt misled, and I was like,
well, I think it's possible thatthat's still coming, right it is.
I thought very hard, very veryhard to get it done with this
one, to get the funding forit, to get it done, but
unfortunately they just wouldn't sign off onit. So we're doing it again,

(02:58):
and we're going to keep you know, fighting for it, which is so
now on with the new production company. And I talked to Injurias to serve
weekly and where you are still,you know, actively we went up into
the mountains, the same Gabriel Mountains. We've with a local law enforcement,
we've located the spots, we've takenmetal detectors up there, and we have
gotten a hit in the place thatHitteker has said where he put the girls.

(03:23):
So I sent that over to youknow, Clemente, and I said,
you know, it's not proof,but we do have the meter going
off, and these girls still havemetal in their bones, you know,
the six were left inside of them, which you actually saw on the show.
The photograph of Jackie Gillian Skull atthe ice Peck. So we are
working towards it. We're fighting.It's a daily fight, trust me,

(03:44):
we're fighting to get it done.Yeah, and I figured that. I
even made a note that, youknow, when I watched it again just
before today, I noticed I can'tremember which family member it was. I
should have written that in my note, but one of the family members had
said something like, I'm hoping thatwith these new locations will be able to

(04:06):
get some more answers, And justthe way she said it made it pretty
clear to me that this isn't over. It's still coming. So I'm glad
that that's I was right about that, and I'm excited for that. So
when you say the Clemente's Clemente brotheris Jim Clemente, is that yeah?
Oh okay, so FBI profiler dude, Yeah, yeah, okay, cool,

(04:29):
very familiar with him. Yeah,he's great. The profilers also doing
the production. But also have youknow, they have the background in knowledge
of searches and that aspect. SoI think it's a really good just a
perfect combination of us coming together toget this search done. And I'm really
hopeful this is gonna get picked up. And you know, this gets done.
Yeah. Absolutely, that's I mean, it's it's pretty uh that's the

(04:55):
word I'm looking for. It's apretty ringing endorsement right to get, you
know, to be working with peoplelike that, it makes you definitely feel
like you're doing something right. I'msure. Oh yeah, yeah, We've
been so lucky with them, youknow, the experts that have jumped on
to help. It's really I'm reallyblessed that I've been able to get some
of these people, you know,just galvanize and caring about these girls and

(05:16):
wants these searches done and willing tohop on board. I've got a message
today just from a girl on Instagramwho said, you know, i'll help
fundraise. Do you need extra bodiesfor searches? Like I get those messages
all the time, and I'm likeit just fills my heart of like,
oh, finally, like people arestarting to care that these girls are up
there and they haven't been properly searchedfor, you know, back in nineteen

(05:38):
eighties, and people really do careabout finding them and bring them home for
their families. Yeah, for sure, that's really awesome. Is that something
you're going to need people to helpor is it not that kind of a
thing. I don't think so,because I think if we do, if
we go through with it where Jimwants to pull like FBI resources and experts,

(06:00):
I think it's going to be avery um forensic like experts in the
field will come out and be veryprofessional and kind of closed off. But
it is I mean, it's massiveterrain, so I honestly don't know if
we're going to need extra bodies orthey're just gonna have, like the forensic
experts come on exactly how it's goingto go down yet, but as the
mountains are massive, the area wehave to search, we have it located

(06:25):
down to a pretty good area thoughwhere the metal detectors got off, but
we still have to go down theincline. And also one thing that I
really want to do is actually goall the way down through these mountains because
if this is a spot where theyactually put the other body for more victims,
and if we can try to evenrecover their remains as well, Wow,

(06:46):
yeah, that's that's huge. Ithink a lot of people don't realize
just what goes into something like this. You know, it's easy to be
like, oh I was misled.They didn't end up finding anything. It
was all a hoax or whatever it'sBut you already mentioned, you know,
there's funding that plays a role.There are people producing this stuff. All

(07:06):
of it takes money and time andresources, and it's not just some easy
thing where you're like, oh,cool, I have the locations, let's
go dig it up tomorrow. Youknow. Yeah, No, I would
never even just go with a shoveland do that. I would never even
god forbid I found something or destroysomething. Just don't please, don't ever

(07:27):
if you get a location for abody, don't think you can just go
dig, get the experts involved,get the funding, have it done properly.
And that's what we're doing too.We want to make sure that everything's
contained and this is handled and executed, you know, properly, And that's
our biggest hope is to actually getthis done properly. And the funding is
definitely the biggest aspect of it formost people. Do understand, it's in

(07:51):
the hundreds of thousands of dollars,like really high, in the hundreds of
thousands, depending on how extensive youwant to get. You know, you
have to fly in the experts,you have to get a specialized gabb dogs
that they need to be flown inas well. You need ground penetration radar,
you need the metal detectors, anextensive a lot for an extensive amount
of you know, people searching.I mean it adds up very very quickly,

(08:16):
the amount of money needed. Yeah, I mean that's wild. I
mean even some of the things youjust mentioned I never would have thought of.
So yeah, take take it easy. People who feel like that you
didn't get the stuff yet, youknow, every day, trust me,
I've been a god almost a fouryear fighting now to get these searches done.
But yeah, it's slow moving,but it's we're still fighting. Yeah,

(08:39):
And it seems like from the documentarythat you know, you have all
the families support one hundred percent,and I imagine for them, look,
they've been waiting, you know,fifty years or whatever. It's not going
to be too much more of aweight, you know, to wait just
a little bit longer to make sureit's done correctly. Well, Andrea's mother
is still alive. She's elderly,but she's still alive, and like she's

(09:03):
always just wanted to bury Andrea.And so I'm like, I really want
to get this done while she's alive. Like, I just want Andrew's mother
to be able to bury her beforeyou know she passes away. So there
is actually some sort of a littlebit of a clock for you then,
so you are really trying to hurryit along. Yeah, for her mother,
I really want to hurry it along, you know, I really want

(09:26):
to give that to her right beforeyou know, she passes, and just
to have that, you know,get her daughter back before you know she
leaves this world. Yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine what that's like.
Yeah, And I noticed, youknow in the documentary you got very emotional
about that aspect of it. AndI'm sure you know you really bonded with

(09:46):
these people. Yeah, I meanyou get so close to the victims and
the witnesses and the families as wellas the killers. Like I guess I
break the rule of like don't gettoo emotionally involved, like I don't full
out. I get very actually involvedin everybody and very close to the witnesses,
the victims' families. I was supposedto Vicker and Norris, but I
think that's also what made me sogood at this job and getting the information

(10:09):
I needed and getting this case allthe new findings that are about to come
out. If I hadn't gone thisseep with everybody, you know, this
stuff would have never come to light. I wish I could speak more about
this stuff that's going to come out, but it's pretty wild what is going
to come out in terms of theinvestigation, and a lot of stories,

(10:31):
Like a lot of witnesses have comeforward and told me things that they actually
never told the police. You gotto remember a lot of these witnesses where
teenagers, they never testified. Theysaw a lot of things, heard a
lot of things, they were scaredat the time, they didn't tell the
police. So there's a lot alot of information about to come out.
Yeah, and I remember, Imean, it makes sense you've got to
keep a lot of this stuff closeto the vest, so I understand that

(10:52):
you can't go into detail with that. But it's exciting to know that there's
there's stuff still coming. That waswhat I was most looking forward to hearing.
So I'm very excited, very happythat you're going to be able to
continue with this, and as Isaid before, with such legit people working
with you, that's great. I'mkind of like a pitbull once I get

(11:13):
a case like I'm seeing it allthe way through, like I have exhausted
every effort before I you know,walk away from a case, especially this
one. It's just it's, youknow, I'm so muchly involved, and
I'm really taking this to the endand going to you know, work it,
you know, and try to identifyall the other victims and find you
girls and them. I'm really justnot going to give up until I have

(11:35):
fully exhausted every effort. That's awesome. And I think this this documentary that
has just finished the Toolbox Killer,you know, even if the uncovering of
the or looking up at the newlocations and stuff and trying to uncover the
remains that hadn't been found yet,even if that stuff's not in there.

(11:56):
I mean, I've you know,thought I had seen sort of everything there
was to see about the tool BiasKillers. It's sort of one of my
pet cases that I've been into,and you know, even I felt that
it was completely worthwhile. You mentionedalready there were some photos I had never
seen. There was footage of Bittakerthat I had never seen, lots of

(12:18):
worthwhile stuff in there that I thoughtwas really cool. And in addition,
I mean, for me, whatthe best part of it was was getting
to hear the audio of your conversationswith Laurence Bittaker. I thought that stuff
was crazy. That's another point too. There's actually so I have over ten
hours with Bittaker, so you hearum probably about five minutes total, I

(12:41):
would say, like throughout the wholeof our audio recordings. So I'm hoping
it's the next thing, which projectwe do, people get to hear even
more of these of the audio recordingsbecause there was there's so I mean,
there's ten hours of just I can'teven um scrit every single interview. It
was pretty groundbreaking. For the nextseason, everyone's going to get these or
even more of the taps that youhadn't even heard from this special too.

(13:03):
Yeah. See, that's awesome becauseI thought that stuff was just fascinating because
even though it is just a littlebit the way it's sort of spread out,
as the story goes along, youfeel like you're really sort of getting
I mean, for me, sortof at least getting to know a little
bit of Bittacker the man as opposedto Bittaker the monster. That you know,

(13:24):
is all we've really been able tosee up until now. Yeah,
I think it was. I likedhow they really infused that they really had
like the homicide co exists with thehumanity side of it, Like it was
very handled, very arm empathetically Ithought all the way around, which was
I really wanted that too. That'swhat I really wanted to hit home is
a really empathetic based true crime show. And they really really nailed that,

(13:48):
and I'm hoping to continue that withany project they do. And I think
that totally came across him. Iagree they did nail it. I thought
it was great. And I'll tellyou so, I mentioned some of the
listeners. I didn't assign any specificcomments. I'll just leave everything anonymous,
but generally, like composites, likeseveral people right will comment on YouTube,

(14:11):
and YouTube can be a total cesspool. So some of it's just complete trolling,
but some of the you know,more respectful criticisms, I guess you
would say. People do say thingslike, you know, I think it's
completely inappropriate that Laura ended up sortof having a friendship with Bittaker and letting

(14:31):
him get that close. He wasjust leading her on because he was probably
lonely and just a lot of sortof criticism about sort of your methods,
I guess you would say, AndI completely disagree with that because, first
of all, and I think maybea lot of people might not agree with
this, some of my listeners becausewell, I guess because they told me

(14:52):
that they don't agree. But Idon't think that anyone necessarily is undeserving of
having a friendship or having sort ofmutually respectful conversations, even if they did
terrible things some time ago. Right, It's like the same thing you could
think of, you know, ina prison, you've got the prison chaplain

(15:16):
that comes around, even if guysaren't religious. It's someone to connect with
and speak to. And I don'tthink anyone is undeserving of that. So
for me personally, no matter whatBittaker has done, I found it pretty
poignant that you were able to developa friendship with him, and you call

(15:37):
it a friendship in the documentary,which I thought was important and I think
bold because you probably will get criticism. Oh yeah, there's definitely criticism for
it. I don't want to swearon tape, but I always joke with
my friends that I would describe mein Bittaker as I've really effed up tuesdays
with more kind of thing I woulddescribe it. You know, you're learning

(16:03):
from them and like you are buildingthat trustomerport. You know, a friendship
just authentically naturally evolved just from whenyou're spending so much time with someone and
you're working so closely with somebody.I mean, it's it's more like a
business partner or a co worker kindof like situation, like you're really working
together, but you you don't hateworking together. You you're having no I

(16:26):
enjoyed my time with Phittacker. Hewas actually a great U inmate to work
with. I gotta say. Hewould actually send me all the files already
filed. He'd highlight the points,make markers, like he did all this
like work for me that I wouldhave had to do from any other inmate.
Like he actually took a lot ofthe leg work out for me.
You know, he got everything tome promptly when I needed, you know,

(16:48):
the autost to report, when Ineeded court transcripts and I need to
police discovery was in the mail thenext day. Yeah, So I mean,
I don't I had a great workingrelationship with Whittaker, and as far
as I know, people might criticizethat, but really, if you think
about it, when he gave upthat information, and if you were ever
going to tell a secret to anybody, are you going to tell it to
somebody just meeting and passing or acasual friendship or acquaintance, or are you

(17:11):
going to tell somebody really trust,like a best friend, some that you're
every day talk to every day.Some of that you can really trust with
the secret, and that's how youget the information. That's how I was
able to get the bodies and veriedevidence. He trusted me. I built
that trust for report and it worked. You know, so part at it
for five years straight to build thatand that finally I did get it.

(17:32):
But it took years. I meanit's not overnight. Yeah, absolutely,
And people say that, you know, he doesn't deserve your kindness. I
just don't know what they would beexpecting. I mean, you can't just
go in there and be mean tohim and expect to get any sort of
results. And at the same time, it's like, I think what was
helpful about hearing some of the conversationsthat you two had was it's like,

(17:55):
Okay, he's still a human being, and it doesn't mean he can't behave
like a decent person in certain situations, Like he can still have a respectful
conversation with somebody and be a decenthuman and also have done some terrible things
that most of us consider a monstrous. Right, it's it's too separate.

(18:15):
It's like compartmentalized almost, right,Yeah, it's And I think that when
people hear serial killers speak, likeI know a lot of people have like
listened to Kemper and stuff and they'relike, whoa, like really blown away?
I think, you know, wehave this like persona from Hollywood.
If they're just these blood they're seepsychopathic monsters super then when you actually hear

(18:37):
them speak, you're like, oh, they're a human being too, Like
it's jarring for someone's like perceptions,you know, to get totally blindsided by
that when they, you know,encounter a serial killer talking. But I
mean, they are human, They'rejust human beings, and they're not like
they're crazy blood they're sea monster.That's the nature of it. So and

(18:57):
that's why I always focus on too, So when I'm talking to them,
I don't focus on their crimes.I'll get to their crimes. I always
focus on their background first. Theirchildhood. I start there. I started
the corps. I'm trying to lookfor the progression, the signs. It's
always like a perfect storm brewing.You know, they may have the psychopathic
nature, they may not. Notall seor killers do, but you want

(19:17):
to look into the psycho valves andsee if that was present. I have
Bitaker's psych evalves from when he wassixteen that are very telling. So he
definitely had a few personality disorders,even diagnosed at sixteen years old. That
twenty actually went to the mountains andwas the firefighter. He found most fire
roads. But yeah, I duginto his and Norris's background, you know,
going through you know, their entirechildhoods, in their early life and

(19:41):
then into their twenties. Their crimesare committing during their twenties up into the
crimes, and that's the progression.I always try to stay linear, going
all the way up and working myway up to the crimes. Huh,
yeah, that's that's fascinating. Ididn't realize it it went that way,
and that makes sense. It's likeyour methodology, right, yeah, yeah,
first into the crimes. I needto understand like everything and how we

(20:04):
got here totally and you know,another aspect of it too, Like it
was pretty clear to me, youknow, we have in this documentary we're
introduced to Mary Ellen O'Toole, Andwell, I say introduced to, I
think a lot of us in thetrue crime world definitely knew her already.
For those of you who don't knowMary Ellen O'Toole, very renowned former FBI

(20:27):
profiler. She's worked on tons ofbig cases, and she's in this documentary
and there's a part in it whereshe says, like, specifically, I
know, you know, Laura's methodsare different than mine. We don't have
the same approach. But she straightup comes out and says, but without

(20:48):
Laura's approach to this, we wouldn'tbe here, we wouldn't have this in
new Info that we're going to workwith. So for me, that's like
the most ringing endorsement you can getfrom someone like her to be saying that.
So, yeah, that was amazing. Yeah. So and anyone that's
skeptical of that, just look atthe people around Laura as well, Like,

(21:11):
these are legit people working together andyou know, towards a common goal
here. And I think it doessort of take all these different methods to
make it happen. Yeah, Ithink with my methods, I'm very new
trail blazing. You could even saymy methods are very different from you know,
what was what's been done in thepast, from like the eighties and

(21:33):
the you know seventies with the FBIprofilers and stuff. I take a whole
new approach with these guys, andI'm asking different questions. I have a
homicide study than I'm actually presenting itfor the first time in Green Bay at
a law enforcement conference with doctor White. So I've partnered with doctor White for
this study and I've consists of twentyfive serial killers and eighty questions and we're

(21:57):
going to be presenting it for thefirst time. It'll it will be published
as an academic study and possibly evena book. I think there's enough of
data for her book at this point, different unique questions that have not been
asked before. So my approach isalways is very very different from what people
are used to because I'm trying toapproaches because we've kind of exhausted what we've

(22:18):
done in the past and we needto actually go further with the research.
And I feel like we've been solvedin forensic psychology. So I've been trying
all these new questions, new approaches, and they have been working. There
are a lot of older people thatwe're doing this, you know, back
in the seventies and whatnot, andyou don't really know. I mean,
at least I can't think of alot of sort of up and coming young

(22:40):
people doing the same thing. SoI think you're right that it is something
that we need. Because everything elsein the world is moving forward, why
wouldn't this as well. I thinkwe need to. Like some of the
stuff from the past I don't thinkis accurate or right. But also,
you know, back in the seventies, I mean, the term serial killer

(23:00):
just came. That's when this termcame as out from wrestler. And I
mean so in many have this massiverise of serial killer in the seventies,
so you know, they're kind oflike scrambling to understand what a serial killer
is, their method, methodology andeverything like that. So you know,
we've now come forty years later,but we're still you know, going back
to the stuff we're in back inthe eighties and the seventies. When it's

(23:22):
forty years now, we need tostart going deeper with this research. We
need to really start asking different questions, throw away some of the old stuff,
and start doing new approaches with theseguys. I mean, the end
result that you always want to,you know, work towards is understanding the
progression to actually use it to actuallystop homicide, to prevent homicide from further.

(23:45):
We could start identifying it, youknow. And I looked at when
Bittaker was sixteen in his Psyche Valve, I saw homicide brewing. I could
see it plainist day because it statedon the thing that he was suicidal.
Now I always say I always lookout for suicide because if someone is suicide.
Even my serial becauses said this,if suicide does not occur, homicide

(24:07):
occurs, because once you're suicidal,you want to end your life. You're
not far off from ending others people'slife, especially if you have pain psychopathic
traits, you're not far off.So anytime I see suicide and the psychedelves,
they always take, you know,note of that. And then it
also said he's attention seeking, he'sbeen neglected, he wants to be somebody,

(24:27):
and it said this all in oneparagraph. He wants to be somebody,
he wants attention. Suicidal to methat screen comicide. But you know,
back then they didn't recognize it asthis person is going to go on
and commit homicide. But to me, you're looking at that report, I
was like, oh my god,it's this plain this day. So you
know, the hope is to dothis kind of research and start you know,

(24:48):
finding these things that we can actuallygive to you know, psychologists and
say hey, this is the warringsides, this is what we've got to
be looking for. We got tostart with the prevention, and it starts
us going back actually doing real researchand asking deeper questions, going deeper,
trying new approaches to gain more research. I mean, right now we have
the mass shootings in the school islike unbelievable, and it just keeps happening.

(25:11):
It breaks my heart every time Isee like a school, a mass
shooter at the schools, it's reallyreally sad, and everyone's like, well,
why weren't there's signs and why whyaren't people looking into this. I
don't think even the psychologists know whatto look out for. I don't think
they're prepped enough to know about homicide. You know, when someone goes for
a psychology degree doesn't necessarily mean thatthey've studied the forensic psychology or they understand

(25:33):
psychopathic traits. Not to say thateverybody does have psychopathic traits if you're a
killer, but again, the warringside for homicide, I feel like there's
a very huge lack in the fieldof prepping people for what to look out
for and understanding it as a whole. It makes perfect sense to me.
And actually it did have a listenerwho asked a question about that. I'll

(25:57):
just throw it in now because theypointed out that and you mentioned that there
was a huge rise of you know, serial killers in the sixties and seventies
and into the eighties and it's sortof has died off lately. We don't
see as much of the serial killer, but we see the school shooting thing
the matter, or not even schools, but just mass shootings. And that

(26:18):
was her question was do you seethe same patterns in the type of thinking,
in the psychopathy or just the generalpsychology of these people. It's just
a different sort of outlet for theviolence. Yeah. I've actually had some
really really deep talks about the massshooters, the school shooters with my serial

(26:38):
killers. I do want to dosomething with these recordings probably put them out
for people to hear because they hadsome really great insight into mass killing and
why we're seeing it, you know, with the kids nowadays. There's also
a true time author. His showis now on Netflix Prime Seeing Peter Vronsky
and very close to Oh yeah,yeah, and he's he's very well known.

(27:00):
Him and I have met, We'vegone into prison together. I actually
was sitting next to him when hewas interviewing Richard cutting him. Yeah,
that was cool to actually get togo in with another expert and actually you
know, do a duel. Yeah, right, that was the first.
But yeah, So in his book, sounds became you know, he has
a prediction. He's looked at,you know, the underlying currents of why

(27:22):
there was a rise in the seventies, and you know, there's a lot
of research done about the war thatwas having in the forties and very very
similar social circumstances from that rise,and that could be coming our way that
we've had in the early kind oflike millennium. And so I actually do
agree with what Peter saying. Ithink we are going to see another huge

(27:47):
rise. I think right now we'reseeing and I think seeing the math killing
now is a big indicator of it. All these kids going in and shooting
at the schools. I mean,they're teenagers. But you've got to think
twenty seven is the age that cerealis the typical age for a serial killer
to start. Um, So thekids that are in high school now,
um, that don't go on tobecome masters, that could potentially go on

(28:08):
to be serial killers, they're goingto be twenty seven in the next decade.
So him and I both actually believethat there's there could be a big
uprise in about a decade from now. Wow, that's a terrifying thought.
But yeah, and you know,I mean I think that sort of speaks
to what you're talking about from youknow, some of the old methods.

(28:30):
Like I remember, there used tobe a big distinction right between serial killers
and spree killers. I think theycalled them right that was sort of like
the mass killer type of thing backthen, mash spree cereal. Um,
okay, yeah. They the thingsthis branch of psychology too, is they

(28:51):
kind of put out definitions and theytake it away. Like some people now
say that spree and cereal the samething. I make this distinction. I
think there's mass spree Cereal. Okay, the three of them are different.
So what's the difference between spree andmass. So a mass is like someone
who goes into a school and justshoots up to school or like a mall
or a movie theater that day.A spree will happen within it. So

(29:14):
for a serial killer, there needsto be a one month cooling off period,
So a spree could take place withunder a month's period. But typically
we'll see a spree with a coupleof days, like maybe somebody's in the
car and they're shooting somebody one day, they drive, the next day,
they shoot somebody in the next day. That's that's kind of like a spree,
right, so like multiple events,whereas like a mass shooting is just

(29:36):
one event. Yeah, I gotyou, Yeah that makes sense. Yeah,
well that really is a scary,scary thought. But I guess that's
why we're thankful that you guys aredoing work like that. Right, Hopefully,
hopefully we're wrong, you know,in a decade praying we're wrong.
Actually, but you know, itgot for big because there is a next

(29:59):
you know up. I mean,we are seeing this past two years,
we've had a massive upspring in homicidethat we actually one of the largest rises
in homicide we've seen in UM inmodern day. It's been pretty bad.
Now. This is because of thepandemic and everything happening. That's why we're
seeing this uprise, but homicide UMfor the next ten years. Yes,

(30:22):
there is an upspring of serial killers, which I really hope there isn't.
I'm hoping by then we can haveenough data and research to actually, you
know, be able to tackle thisand save some lives. Yeah. Absolutely,
Well, glad that that you're onthe case. I'm glad the siren
is on the case. But youmentioned so you're going to be presenting that

(30:44):
study for the first time in GreenBay. When is that happening in April?
The end of April. Oh,okay, it's open to law enforcement.
Unfortunately, I wish it was likeopen to the public because I'm really
dying to show this work. It'salmost been years of work for the study,
and I really I'm excited for peopleto see it. Actually showed it

(31:06):
to somebody last night, a friendof mine, and he was blown away
and he loved it. He's like, I can't wait until this is like
fully out for the public. Itis going to be a really interesting study,
and it's really cool to see,you know, their answers and some
of the questions that I asked actuallykind of a through them in different ways.
So it's really interesting to see.I wish I could go more into

(31:27):
it, but I'm hoping by thespring or the summer it'll be out for
the public to seek. Oh yeah, that would be great. I personally
I would love something like that.I know a lot of people listening right
now would as well. And youmentioned that that could possibly be a book.
Is that different from the book thatyou've talked about before that is still

(31:47):
coming. What Hell is like isactually I've just got a book agent and
we are getting the proposal ready togo out actually as we're speaking, so
it's just going out to the publisherspretty soon. I'm about I would say,
sixty percent complete of the book.Um. It's it's really massive.
Um, for how much I've written, it's actually more like two books at
this point. I tell people like, expect helter skelter length. It's going

(32:13):
to be probing amount of words,like two hundred and seventy thousand words.
Um, I think I'm already atlike one fifty and I'm at you know,
only like sixty percent done. Um, the massive new findings they have
to you know, squeeze into thisbook. And that's just to be clear,
that's just Bittaker Norris like toolbox killerstuff. Yeah right, and then

(32:35):
you could potentially also turn this studyof all these other serial killers into another
book. I mean that's it's prettythat I wouldn't have to even write anything
because the study is pretty much done. So I would just, Um,
all we would do is right upto analyze finding on each offender and put
the study and you know, theanalysis in and yeah, so it would

(32:55):
be like as is, we couldjust view it as the study. Yeah
cool, awesome. And so youdon't have a specific timeline for for when
what Hell is Like would would bereleased. Um, I should be posting
soon after it goes out to publishers. I'll be putting. Um, I'll
definitely be putting an update. Soif we get a deal pretty quickly,

(33:17):
it's probably going to move really quicklybecause they're probably going to be you know,
we want it done now, soI'll probably have to really scramble to
get it all done. Um.So thankfully I'm so far along at this
point. But so just stay tunedfor um, you know, an update
once I hear back from the publishersand everything. Yeah, absolutely, we'll
look forward to it. Um.And and this new series, is it

(33:43):
a series that you're going to dowhen you're working with clements trying to recover
the missing girls? Being it asa series? So we pitched this last
one as a series too, Butyou know how it works, like in
Hollywood and the entertam of businesses youcould pitch for you know, you try
to pitch it for a series,they may come back and be like,

(34:04):
we think we can do this intwo hours, which is what they did
form with Oxygen there, like wethink we can fit it into two hours,
So you know it's we're pitching itas a series. I'm not sure
I'll get picked up as a series. I am hopeful it will because it's
going to be you know, thesearches and the new investigation. We're definitely
gonna be more than two hours tocover it. So yeah, I am
really hopeful this is going to bepicked up as a series. Yeah,

(34:25):
it seems like the kind of thingthat would fit, you know, perfectly
with it because it's probably gonna youknow, be a long process of having
cameras out there doing things, andI imagine it and it probably is a
better way to move the story along, I think. And you could see
people getting in like you know,sort of like Cliffhangers. Oh did they
find something there? And then it'sthe next episode. You know, I

(34:47):
can just envision it. See ILike, I don't like um just sitting
in a chair doing commentary, likeI keep saying, I kind of want
to do a show where that,you know, people actually get to see
me in action. People get tosee me out in the mouth, are
you know, working the case andyou know with my research partner Amy,
like when her and I are justgoing back and forth on theories and you
know, talk enaguring the witnesses.Like I want people to actually see the

(35:10):
work that goes into it and actually, you know, see the full investigation
and the work that we do.That's the type of show I would love
to you know, showcase for peopleis them actually seeing you know, everything
that's unfolding, kind of like behindthe scenes that people don't really see right
now. Yeah, I think thatwould help a lot too, you know,
with people misunderstanding what exactly it isyou do. I think it's pretty

(35:32):
clear that a lot of people don'tget it, and you know, then
if they watch the documentary and theydo just see you sort of as a
talking head and not realizing how muchactual field work you're doing. It's hard
because people don't get to see it, so it's hard for like people to
conceptually understand it. So that's whyI think a lot of people like,

(35:54):
well, what's going on? What'shappening? You know, you can't say
a lot and it's not on TVof us showing the work. So I'm
really hopeful, like if we doa series you people will actually get to
see the work that goes into itand a real investigation interviewing, the searches,
everything, so you've kind of getto see from point A to point
B to point C and how wegot there through the investigation. Yeah,

(36:16):
that sounds awesome. I definitely lookforward to that. And I mean,
even so, the Toolbox Killer wasgreat for me too. Even having known
a lot of that stuff, Istill found so many little new nuggets and
stuff, and as I mentioned before, just the new stuff of just getting
to hear Lawrence Bittaker as a humanand interacting with you too. Is really

(36:40):
cool, Like there are some partsin there where it's just you know,
I can picture you just like athome as a mom. You're dealing with
the kid, and you've also gotLarry on the phone. You know.
It's like it's like I think Ialways imagined it being just sort of a
sterile environment, like you were inan office or something, but then when
I saw the dock, it waslike, no, no, I can

(37:00):
see this. They're communicating just asanyone else would, and Laura's also just
absorbing all of this info as well. So just really cool to see.
And I think, I know,I am very excited for anything that comes
next, whether it be the book, whether you get a series, whether
they do another documentary. And Ibelieve the vast majority of my listeners are

(37:22):
as well, those who aren't toocritical about it. So I wonder,
is there anything else forthcoming that youwant to mention? Pretty much, that
is it right now? The study, you know what Hell is like,
the end told story, the ToolboxKillers, and the series. You know,
we're getting ready to do the pitchesand we're getting ready to actually put

(37:45):
the book out for the proposal forthe publishers. So it's all coming along.
Yeah, that sounds like plenty.Yeah, so that's all coming so
hopefully. Oh when I am doinga new podcast called True Evil, it's
only going to be a once amonth thing that people can check out.
Oh cool. So yeah, ifyou just follow me on Instagram Siren and

(38:06):
San quint and I'm always post updatesof what's coming and one is coming and
sometimes they only get twenty four hournotice. Like with the show dropping,
I wasn't allowed to ever say Ofstagenor NBC or a Pea talk until they
gave me to, you know,go ahead, and I got twenty four
hour notice. Yeah, so Iliterally get twenty four hours and then I

(38:27):
can finally say it. But sometimesunfortunately out of my control when I get
the green lights to say stuff.Yeah totally. Well, yeah that.
I also recommend that everyone follows Laura. You heard it there at Siren of
San Quentin, and I'll also putthat in the show notes listeners if you
want, it'll be in there soyou can follow her. Laura, thank

(38:49):
you so much for coming back andtalking with me. It was a pleasure
and I'm glad that I get thetitle of first to interview you post documentary
for the podcast. Had a lotof fun right on, so did I.
Well, I imagine this won't bethe last time we talk, because
you've got so much of them gonnawant to ask you about in the coming
months and weeks and years or whateverelse. Definitely, hopefully we can keep

(39:14):
going and after every project, ifI have more questions, I'd love to
come back and just you know,do another dive. Yeah. Absolutely,
Well, thank you, and we'lltalk to you next time. I'll send
everyone your way and make sure they'refollowing you for updates. Yeah, all
right, Well, thanks Laura,we'll talk soon. And I will also

(39:37):
let you know when this drops soyou'll be aware that it's coming out so
you can give it a listen.All right, thanks again, I really
really appreciate it. All right,awesome, all right, have a good one.
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