February 17, 2022 • 24 mins
Jordan discusses the utter madness in former Manson Family member Leslie Van Houten's ongoing fight for parole.
Check out Jordan and Ed's previous episode on Charles Manson and The Family: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7aVFcRHlocDAVbACnvPMRd?si=q9gmspjMSqqkqZlq4YULfA
To support Dark Dark World: http://www.patreon.com/darkdarkworld
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Thank you for listening!
Check out Jordan and Ed's previous episode on Charles Manson and The Family: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7aVFcRHlocDAVbACnvPMRd?si=q9gmspjMSqqkqZlq4YULfA
To support Dark Dark World: http://www.patreon.com/darkdarkworld
Web: http://www.darkdarkworld.com
Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/DDWstore
Twitter: @darkworldpod
Instagram: @darkdarkworldpodcast
Email: darkworldpod@gmail.com
Thank you for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hello, listeners, geordiec here comingat you with something a little bit different
today. Now, if you don'tfollow Dark Dark World on YouTube, if
you're not subscribed over there, andyou've never checked us out over there,
then you may not know that I'vebeen doing something off and on called the
(00:25):
Dark Dark Vlog, where I'm usuallyin my car, but sometimes not chatting
to the camera for like ten minutestalking about something, usually from current events
in the true crime world that hascaused me to think about something or whatnot.
And I've done another one of thosevlogs discussing the topic that I'm going
(00:48):
to be discussing here right now,I guess because I just thought, well,
some of our audience is different.We have some podcast only listeners,
we have some YouTube only we havethat follow us on both, So why
not make the Dark Dark vlog accessibleto podcast only listeners? And so here
(01:08):
I am bringing you an audio versionof the Dark Dark vlog as it were.
Of course, since it's audio only, it is not a vlog at
all in this particular format. It'sjust a podcast. But this will be
pretty short and sweet. What Ilike best about doing the Dark Dark vlog
over on YouTube is that the audience, you all can interact with me much
(01:34):
more efficiently. On YouTube. Thecomments section is a great way to discuss
with you whatever I've discussed in thevideo and hear your opinions and questions and
whatnot. You can sort of dothat through the podcast. You can write
me an email at darkworldpod at gmaildot com and let me know your thoughts
that way, or you can alwaysgo over to the YouTube channel dark dark
(02:00):
World on YouTube and find the videoversion of this podcast and let me know
your thoughts there, because I willwant to know your thoughts on this.
All right, let's cut to thechase here. I'm getting into Ramble territory
already, So today I'm going tobe talking about Leslie van Houghton or van
(02:21):
Houghton, depending on your preference,I'm gonna say Houghton. Leslie van Houghton
infamous murderer and former member of thefamily, the Manson family. That is,
Leslie Van Houghton, along with otherfamily members, fatally and brutally stabbed
(02:43):
Leno and Rosemary lo Bianca in Augustof nineteen sixty nine. Leslie was nineteen
at the time. She was sentencedto death along with her co defendants Charles
Manson, Susan Atkins, and PatriciaKrenwinkle. Her death sentence, along with
(03:04):
the death sentences for her co defendants, was commuted to life imprisonment with the
possibility of parole because at that time, interestingly, California didn't sentence anyone to
life in prison without parole. Itsimply wasn't an option. If you were
sentenced to life in prison, youhad the possibility of parole. Today,
(03:27):
in twenty twenty two, Leslie VanHoughton is seventy two years old. She's
been in prison for nearly fifty oneyears, making her, along with her
co defendant Patricia Krenwinkle, California's longestserving female prisoner. While in prison,
Leslie Van Houghton earned a bachelor's degreeand then she earned a master's degree in
(03:50):
counseling, and to this day sheleads programs in prison to help rehabilitate fellow
inmates. The Parole Board has recommendedLeslie for parole five times, most recently
in November of last year, althoughthat particular recommendation is currently under review.
(04:15):
And what we're going to be talkingabout here today is actually the fourth time
that she was recommended for parole.It's a little confusing, but it's not
entirely important, as you'll see.But in twenty twenty, the Parole Board
recommended parole for Leslie for the fourthtime, stating that she quote does not
pose an unreasonable risk to public safetyend quote, and that she has shown
(04:41):
deep remorse for her crimes, aswell as a comprehensive understanding of the pain
and suffering she has caused. However, California Governor Gavin Newsom reversed this twenty
twenty decision from the Parole Board,stating that Leslie does in fact pos an
unreasonable danger if she's released. Sosince twenty sixteen, every Parole Board recommendation
(05:09):
that Leslie van Houghton be released hasbeen blocked by either then Governor Jerry Brown
or current Governor Gavin Newsom. Somaybe you're wondering, Jordan, why are
you bringing this up now? Thiswas twenty twenty. Okay, The most
recent development in all this happened lastweek on Wednesday, February ninth. I
(05:30):
was aware of it then thought aboutcovering it then, but I was traveling,
and then we had the Super Bowland lots going on, so I
wanted to circle back to it thisweek, and here we are. See
on Wednesday of last week, onthe ninth, the California Supreme Court refused
to hear Leslie van Houghton's appeal ofa lower court ruling from back in December
(05:55):
that had denied her petition for areview. So basically, Leslie and her
legal team had said, well,this is unfair. These governors keep stepping
in and denying me an opportunity tobe paroled. It's not fair, and
we want to appeal it. Sothat's what they did, and they appealed
(06:15):
it by creating this petition for reviewwhich was denied by the lower courts,
and then to be heard by theSupreme Court. But the California Supreme Court
refused to hear this appeal. That'swhat happened last week. Now, the
appeal alleges that Leslie van Houghten wasdenied due process by Governor Newsom, and
(06:35):
it also gets into some sort ofpettier legal stuff. I guess you could
say, like, you know,the possibility that maybe Gavin K. Newsom
broke protocol, didn't file his rulingin the allotted time, you know,
stuff like that. But that stuffthe nitty gritty like that is really important
(06:56):
in the appellate process. This iswhat you know. You've got to split
hairs, you gotta find the thinmargins. That's how this stuff gets done.
So understandable that they're trying to findthings like that didn't matter in the
end anyway, because the California SupremeCourt refused to hear it. And so
here I am just saying, whatare we doing here? I mean,
(07:20):
honestly, the woman's been in prisonfor fifty years. She was nineteen when
these murders took place, or Iwon't say it like that. She was
nineteen when she killed these people.She was a kid, she was in
a cult. Now maybe you don'tagree with that. I know that's sort
(07:42):
of a controversial topic these days.There are a lot of differing takes about
Charles Manson and the degree of influencehe had, and a lot of people
are influenced by Helter Skelter, whichthere's a growing group of people who say
that's all hyperbole and basically fiction andBoogliosi went way over the top with it
(08:05):
and that's not the real stuff.So there are a lot of different takes
on that. But I think you'llat least grant me that, you know,
the family was off living a verydifferent life, and there was certainly
at least some sphere of influence goingon there with Charles Manson at the helm.
(08:26):
And when you're a teenager living inthat sort of a situation, it's
even easier to be influenced. You'reyoung and impressionable and naive. Leslie in
particular came from a very straight laced, middle class family and then at this
tender young age she meets Charlie Mansonand the family and is whisked off to
(08:50):
the outskirts of society, living avery different life than most people, very
different in many ways, including takingLSD all day every day. I mean,
by her own admission and by theaccounts of several others, hallucinogenic drugs
were just commonplace for the family outthere on spawn ranch. They're just taking
(09:13):
LSD every day. So I thinkwe need to factor that in as well.
I mean, in this country,we don't even let people drink alcohol
until they're twenty one. Now.I know, you can be younger in
other countries. Other countries have differentlaws, but this is the country where
Leslie van Houghten was sentenced to lifein prison. So we're going to talk
(09:35):
about this country and here in theUnited States, we don't let people drink
until they're twenty one. Why becausekids do dumb things and make bad decisions.
Right, So, Leslie was nineteen, two years shy of drinking age,
and yet we think it's reasonable tohold her accountable for the rest of
(09:56):
her life for choices she made whenshe was nineteen. She's had nearly fifty
one years to change, to evolve, to learn, to become a different
person, and by literally all accounts, she has changed. Now, most
(10:16):
of you probably aren't seventy two,but just think about how different you were
when you were nineteen. Hell,even if you're only twenty five, you've
probably changed a great deal since youwere nineteen. Imagine if you were evaluated
for the rest of your life basedon how you were and what you did
(10:37):
when you were nineteen. It wouldbe wild, right, It would just
be unfair and unreasonable. Now,maybe you're thinking, well, yeah,
it is kind of unfair and unreasonable, but what she did was just to
hainous. Okay, I understand thatperspective. Some will say that none of
that matters her crimes were so heinousthat it's just too bad. One of
(11:01):
those deputy district attorney at the timeof Leslie's case, Stephen Kay, who
we also know on this channel fromthe Toolbox Killer's case, gave a statement
at Leslie's most recent parole board hearing, and Stephen Kay acknowledged what a model
prisoner Leslie is, but he saidthat's just too bad because the law Biancas
(11:26):
didn't get parole, their lives werecut short. There's no parole for them,
so there shouldn't be for Leslie either. God, that's dumb. That
is just such a dumb argument tome. I mean, first off,
the lab Biancas would probably be deadby now anyway. I guess that sort
of depends on their health. Lenola Bianca was forty four when he was
(11:50):
killed, and Rosemary I think wasthirty six, so they'd be pushing it
for sure. But you know,maybe if they were super healthy and stayed
in great shape, they'd still bekicking around. My point being that,
you know, Okay, yes,they didn't get parole, their lives were
cut short, but now Leslie hasserved more time than they probably would have
(12:13):
lived in the best of circumstances.Anyway. But also nobody's arguing that Leslie
Van Houghton shouldn't have been punished forwhat she did to the La Bianca's.
It was terrible. We all agreewith that, and she went to prison.
She's been there for fifty years.Okay, she's done time, and
(12:33):
it's been productive time as well.I listed the things that she's done and
she's achieved. Again, the paroleboard are recommending that this woman be released.
I listened to a radio show thatwas discussing this topic, and people
had been calling in talking about theirmemories of the Abianca murders and the Tate
(12:58):
murders and just the general man andfamily crimes, and they were talking about
Leslie's, you know, this currentevent that Leslie had been denied again,
and I was sort of surprised thatmost people that at least they called into
this particular show, were saying thatshe shouldn't be let out, that they
agreed with Governor Newsom that she shouldbe there for the rest of her life
(13:22):
and rot in prison. A lotof these callers were older people in their
late sixties early seventies, like LeslieVan Houghten herself, and they were talking
about their their memories of these crimesand how it was such a scary time
and people didn't know what to think. Remember, the family weren't caught for
(13:45):
these crimes like the next day oranything. There was a period of time
where the police didn't know what hadhappened, they didn't know who they were
looking for. People were frightened.It was all over the news. It
was a huge deal. Some peoplesay that this brought on the death of
this sixties. Everything changed after that. Of course, it was August of
sixty nine. The sixties were aboutto die anyway, to be fair,
(14:09):
And I think Gavin Newsom is lookingat that too, just like Stephen Kage
is saying, no, you don'tunderstand these crimes were so horrible that she
can't be let out. Well,yes, they were shocking and horrible,
especially in nineteen sixty nine, butlook we've come a long way. We've
seen a lot worse since then.It might be different if Leslie van Houghten
(14:31):
had killed twenty people was a serialkiller, maybe we can get into some
different discussion there. But this wasone event. This was a double homicide
when she was nineteen years old.All happened on one night and if we're
splitting hairs, most of the damagethat Leslie herself did in these crimes was
(14:52):
done posthumously. Most of the stabwounds that she inflicted on the La Biancas
came after they had already been killedby other Manson family members. But I
won't use that as like, oh, so she didn't really do anything.
I'm fully going to acknowledge that sheis a murderer and she killed those people.
(15:13):
I've heard another argument that's basically like, well, keep in mind here,
Leslie van Houghton was taught by thegreatest manipulator of our lifetime, Charles
Manson. Okay, maybe you takethat view. That's debatable for me.
But the leap then that people takewith this is so she's manipulating the parole
(15:39):
board. This has been her planall along, is to seem like she's
doing well and she's okay and she'snot a threat, and then she's going
to get out and continue Charlie's vision. To me, that's absolutely absurd.
One one person that called into thatradio show went as far as to say,
oh, she'll get out. Yeah, she's seventy two, so she's
(16:02):
not really a threat herself. Wedon't need to fear her going killing people,
but she might teach others young peopleto be a threat. She could
influence them and manipulate them with allof her manipulation tactics that she learned under
Manson. She was nineteen, she'sseventy two. Now you think this woman
(16:26):
has been sitting in prison for fiftyyears, just waiting to get out to
continue Charlie's work, that she's playingsome kind of long game where she's like,
I'm going to get a college educationand I'm going to totally pull the
wool over the eyes of the administration. I'm going to help fellow inmates.
I'm going to get people rehabilitated.I'm going to become a counselor. I'm
(16:47):
going to do all this stuff sothat maybe when I'm like seventy seventy two
something like that, I'll get outand I can go murder more people or
teach young people how to murder people. Absolutely ridiculous. If you ask me,
you may disagree. And that's whatI want to hear about. I
want discussion about this. Okay,So again this is the podcast version.
(17:08):
You may not be able to reallyrespond to me other than sending emails,
but I do urge you to goover to the YouTube channel, find the
video that's related to this episode hereand interact with it there in the comments
section, and while you're at it, like and subscribe. Thanks, but
(17:29):
check this out. So in twentynineteen, the University of Newcastle in Australia
down on that did a study onrecidivism of paroled murderers. Did they reoffend
once they were paroled? And basicallywhat they did in the study was they
took data from Australia, the UnitedKingdom and the United States and looked at
(17:52):
murderers who were convicted of a singleinstance murder. Right, So sort of
what I was talking about just aminute ago about how this was one event.
Yes there were two killings, butit was one one event, two
people in the same house, samenight. So we're going to call that
a single instance murder. For Leslievan Houghton, she's a single instance murderer.
(18:15):
And of these single instance murderers whowent on to receive a full parole,
just seven percent reoffended by committing anycrime, so that includes shoplifting or
dui, petty theft, anything.Just zero point three percent went on to
commit another murder. Okay, that'sbasically no one. You know, it's
(18:41):
a few people, right, AndI'm willing to bet that that zero point
three percent of these single instance murderers, I'm willing to bet that none of
them had as exemplary a record inprison as Leslie Van Houghton. I bet
most of them did not get amaster's degree in counseling and develop programs to
help fellow inmates. Going out ona limb there, But that's just my
(19:04):
thought. They also probably weren't inprison for as long as Leslie van Houghton.
I remember hearing just on the radiothe other day and thinking about it
in this context that you know,Derek Chauvin, who killed George Floyd,
got twenty two years in prison.Right, that's just one example, But
we see all sorts of murderers getmuch, much, much less time than
(19:27):
Leslie Van Houghton. So I thinkwe're still trying to make an example of
her because it was so shocking atthat time fifty years ago. If this
happens today, a single instance murderlike this, she probably would get like
a twenty five to life kind ofthing, and parole would be much easier
(19:49):
to come by. I just thinkthis is appalling, as you can probably
tell. I just you know,what are we doing? What are we
saying here? I mean, we'reclearly saying that prison is just punishment,
right, I mean it's naive,I think anyway. And you know,
I don't really think that prison isa really rehabilitative place, certainly not in
(20:11):
this country. But if we wereeven going to entertain the idea that it
might be rehabilitative, we would haveto give Leslie van Houghten parole, right,
I mean, one could say toGovernor Newsome, Look, this should
be a testament to how well theCalifornia justice system works. Look what it's
(20:32):
done. It's rehabilitated one of themost heinous murderers of all time, right,
think of it from that angle.But no, no, of course
not, because prison is just punishment. We know that, and that's why
so many people that go into prisonend up being hopeless and maybe committing more
crimes in prison than going down deeperinto a spiral and getting out maybe in
(20:56):
committing more crimes. And it's thisendless cycle of awful Leslie didn't do that
though, right now, I'm suresome of you disagree, because, as
I say, most of the takesI hear disagree, which I still find
baffling or at least very interesting.I'm sure there are some people that must
agree with me here again, reallywant to hear your feedback on this,
(21:19):
But I don't know. Maybe thisis why I am not charged with making
these sorts of decisions. None ofus are. If only we had a
panel, you know, like apanel of experts whose job it was to
determine when an individual is ready forparole. If we had something like that,
(21:44):
Oh wait, we do. They'recalled parole boards. And in California,
in Leslie's case, the parole boarddecided five different times that Leslie van
Houghton has in fact pay her debtto society and is a perfect candidate for
parole. But Gavin Newsom and theCalifornia Supreme Court don't care about that.
(22:11):
Maybe you don't either, and that'sokay. As I say, I really
do want to hear your thoughts onthis. I know it's a controversial issue.
A lot of people are going tohave different takes. I'm sure.
Just keep it respectful with each otherin the comments section, please, So
I think that's it from me,Gang, I'll be back next time with
(22:34):
the standard fare more regular content foryou. Let me know if you like
this format though, if you wantme to keep it going like this on
the podcast, as they say,I'll be doing the vlogs anyway. That's
been something going on on YouTube fora little while now, and I can
just as easily do this as well. I found this to be kind of
fun, and I hope you dotoo. And this is actually, as
(22:56):
I mentioned in the video version,this has got me wanting to cover the
family again. In some way.Edse and I did cover the family a
couple of years ago. I thinkmight have been slightly less than a couple
of years ago. That episode,for whatever reason, didn't get as many
downloads or listens as some of ourothers, so I'm not sure why.
(23:17):
Maybe it got lost in the shufflethere, or maybe people are sick of
Manson. I don't know. Thatcould be a too, but we enjoyed
doing that episode. We thought itwas pretty good. I will leave the
link to that episode in the descriptionhere for you in case you're curious to
hear it. But yeah, Ithink I might just revisit the old Manson
(23:37):
family. Let me know if you'dlike that, maybe I could just do
a full episode on the life andcrimes of miss Leslie Van Houghton, who
I believe should be paroled.
Hello, listeners, geordiec here comingat you with something a little bit different
today. Now, if you don'tfollow Dark Dark World on YouTube, if
you're not subscribed over there, andyou've never checked us out over there,
then you may not know that I'vebeen doing something off and on called the
(00:25):
Dark Dark Vlog, where I'm usuallyin my car, but sometimes not chatting
to the camera for like ten minutestalking about something, usually from current events
in the true crime world that hascaused me to think about something or whatnot.
And I've done another one of thosevlogs discussing the topic that I'm going
(00:48):
to be discussing here right now,I guess because I just thought, well,
some of our audience is different.We have some podcast only listeners,
we have some YouTube only we havethat follow us on both, So why
not make the Dark Dark vlog accessibleto podcast only listeners? And so here
(01:08):
I am bringing you an audio versionof the Dark Dark vlog as it were.
Of course, since it's audio only, it is not a vlog at
all in this particular format. It'sjust a podcast. But this will be
pretty short and sweet. What Ilike best about doing the Dark Dark vlog
over on YouTube is that the audience, you all can interact with me much
(01:34):
more efficiently. On YouTube. Thecomments section is a great way to discuss
with you whatever I've discussed in thevideo and hear your opinions and questions and
whatnot. You can sort of dothat through the podcast. You can write
me an email at darkworldpod at gmaildot com and let me know your thoughts
that way, or you can alwaysgo over to the YouTube channel dark dark
(02:00):
World on YouTube and find the videoversion of this podcast and let me know
your thoughts there, because I willwant to know your thoughts on this.
All right, let's cut to thechase here. I'm getting into Ramble territory
already, So today I'm going tobe talking about Leslie van Houghton or van
(02:21):
Houghton, depending on your preference,I'm gonna say Houghton. Leslie van Houghton
infamous murderer and former member of thefamily, the Manson family. That is,
Leslie Van Houghton, along with otherfamily members, fatally and brutally stabbed
(02:43):
Leno and Rosemary lo Bianca in Augustof nineteen sixty nine. Leslie was nineteen
at the time. She was sentencedto death along with her co defendants Charles
Manson, Susan Atkins, and PatriciaKrenwinkle. Her death sentence, along with
(03:04):
the death sentences for her co defendants, was commuted to life imprisonment with the
possibility of parole because at that time, interestingly, California didn't sentence anyone to
life in prison without parole. Itsimply wasn't an option. If you were
sentenced to life in prison, youhad the possibility of parole. Today,
(03:27):
in twenty twenty two, Leslie VanHoughton is seventy two years old. She's
been in prison for nearly fifty oneyears, making her, along with her
co defendant Patricia Krenwinkle, California's longestserving female prisoner. While in prison,
Leslie Van Houghton earned a bachelor's degreeand then she earned a master's degree in
(03:50):
counseling, and to this day sheleads programs in prison to help rehabilitate fellow
inmates. The Parole Board has recommendedLeslie for parole five times, most recently
in November of last year, althoughthat particular recommendation is currently under review.
(04:15):
And what we're going to be talkingabout here today is actually the fourth time
that she was recommended for parole.It's a little confusing, but it's not
entirely important, as you'll see.But in twenty twenty, the Parole Board
recommended parole for Leslie for the fourthtime, stating that she quote does not
pose an unreasonable risk to public safetyend quote, and that she has shown
(04:41):
deep remorse for her crimes, aswell as a comprehensive understanding of the pain
and suffering she has caused. However, California Governor Gavin Newsom reversed this twenty
twenty decision from the Parole Board,stating that Leslie does in fact pos an
unreasonable danger if she's released. Sosince twenty sixteen, every Parole Board recommendation
(05:09):
that Leslie van Houghton be released hasbeen blocked by either then Governor Jerry Brown
or current Governor Gavin Newsom. Somaybe you're wondering, Jordan, why are
you bringing this up now? Thiswas twenty twenty. Okay, The most
recent development in all this happened lastweek on Wednesday, February ninth. I
(05:30):
was aware of it then thought aboutcovering it then, but I was traveling,
and then we had the Super Bowland lots going on, so I
wanted to circle back to it thisweek, and here we are. See
on Wednesday of last week, onthe ninth, the California Supreme Court refused
to hear Leslie van Houghton's appeal ofa lower court ruling from back in December
(05:55):
that had denied her petition for areview. So basically, Leslie and her
legal team had said, well,this is unfair. These governors keep stepping
in and denying me an opportunity tobe paroled. It's not fair, and
we want to appeal it. Sothat's what they did, and they appealed
(06:15):
it by creating this petition for reviewwhich was denied by the lower courts,
and then to be heard by theSupreme Court. But the California Supreme Court
refused to hear this appeal. That'swhat happened last week. Now, the
appeal alleges that Leslie van Houghten wasdenied due process by Governor Newsom, and
(06:35):
it also gets into some sort ofpettier legal stuff. I guess you could
say, like, you know,the possibility that maybe Gavin K. Newsom
broke protocol, didn't file his rulingin the allotted time, you know,
stuff like that. But that stuffthe nitty gritty like that is really important
(06:56):
in the appellate process. This iswhat you know. You've got to split
hairs, you gotta find the thinmargins. That's how this stuff gets done.
So understandable that they're trying to findthings like that didn't matter in the
end anyway, because the California SupremeCourt refused to hear it. And so
here I am just saying, whatare we doing here? I mean,
(07:20):
honestly, the woman's been in prisonfor fifty years. She was nineteen when
these murders took place, or Iwon't say it like that. She was
nineteen when she killed these people.She was a kid, she was in
a cult. Now maybe you don'tagree with that. I know that's sort
(07:42):
of a controversial topic these days.There are a lot of differing takes about
Charles Manson and the degree of influencehe had, and a lot of people
are influenced by Helter Skelter, whichthere's a growing group of people who say
that's all hyperbole and basically fiction andBoogliosi went way over the top with it
(08:05):
and that's not the real stuff.So there are a lot of different takes
on that. But I think you'llat least grant me that, you know,
the family was off living a verydifferent life, and there was certainly
at least some sphere of influence goingon there with Charles Manson at the helm.
(08:26):
And when you're a teenager living inthat sort of a situation, it's
even easier to be influenced. You'reyoung and impressionable and naive. Leslie in
particular came from a very straight laced, middle class family and then at this
tender young age she meets Charlie Mansonand the family and is whisked off to
(08:50):
the outskirts of society, living avery different life than most people, very
different in many ways, including takingLSD all day every day. I mean,
by her own admission and by theaccounts of several others, hallucinogenic drugs
were just commonplace for the family outthere on spawn ranch. They're just taking
(09:13):
LSD every day. So I thinkwe need to factor that in as well.
I mean, in this country,we don't even let people drink alcohol
until they're twenty one. Now.I know, you can be younger in
other countries. Other countries have differentlaws, but this is the country where
Leslie van Houghten was sentenced to lifein prison. So we're going to talk
(09:35):
about this country and here in theUnited States, we don't let people drink
until they're twenty one. Why becausekids do dumb things and make bad decisions.
Right, So, Leslie was nineteen, two years shy of drinking age,
and yet we think it's reasonable tohold her accountable for the rest of
(09:56):
her life for choices she made whenshe was nineteen. She's had nearly fifty
one years to change, to evolve, to learn, to become a different
person, and by literally all accounts, she has changed. Now, most
(10:16):
of you probably aren't seventy two,but just think about how different you were
when you were nineteen. Hell,even if you're only twenty five, you've
probably changed a great deal since youwere nineteen. Imagine if you were evaluated
for the rest of your life basedon how you were and what you did
(10:37):
when you were nineteen. It wouldbe wild, right, It would just
be unfair and unreasonable. Now,maybe you're thinking, well, yeah,
it is kind of unfair and unreasonable, but what she did was just to
hainous. Okay, I understand thatperspective. Some will say that none of
that matters her crimes were so heinousthat it's just too bad. One of
(11:01):
those deputy district attorney at the timeof Leslie's case, Stephen Kay, who
we also know on this channel fromthe Toolbox Killer's case, gave a statement
at Leslie's most recent parole board hearing, and Stephen Kay acknowledged what a model
prisoner Leslie is, but he saidthat's just too bad because the law Biancas
(11:26):
didn't get parole, their lives werecut short. There's no parole for them,
so there shouldn't be for Leslie either. God, that's dumb. That
is just such a dumb argument tome. I mean, first off,
the lab Biancas would probably be deadby now anyway. I guess that sort
of depends on their health. Lenola Bianca was forty four when he was
(11:50):
killed, and Rosemary I think wasthirty six, so they'd be pushing it
for sure. But you know,maybe if they were super healthy and stayed
in great shape, they'd still bekicking around. My point being that,
you know, Okay, yes,they didn't get parole, their lives were
cut short, but now Leslie hasserved more time than they probably would have
(12:13):
lived in the best of circumstances.Anyway. But also nobody's arguing that Leslie
Van Houghton shouldn't have been punished forwhat she did to the La Bianca's.
It was terrible. We all agreewith that, and she went to prison.
She's been there for fifty years.Okay, she's done time, and
(12:33):
it's been productive time as well.I listed the things that she's done and
she's achieved. Again, the paroleboard are recommending that this woman be released.
I listened to a radio show thatwas discussing this topic, and people
had been calling in talking about theirmemories of the Abianca murders and the Tate
(12:58):
murders and just the general man andfamily crimes, and they were talking about
Leslie's, you know, this currentevent that Leslie had been denied again,
and I was sort of surprised thatmost people that at least they called into
this particular show, were saying thatshe shouldn't be let out, that they
agreed with Governor Newsom that she shouldbe there for the rest of her life
(13:22):
and rot in prison. A lotof these callers were older people in their
late sixties early seventies, like LeslieVan Houghten herself, and they were talking
about their their memories of these crimesand how it was such a scary time
and people didn't know what to think. Remember, the family weren't caught for
(13:45):
these crimes like the next day oranything. There was a period of time
where the police didn't know what hadhappened, they didn't know who they were
looking for. People were frightened.It was all over the news. It
was a huge deal. Some peoplesay that this brought on the death of
this sixties. Everything changed after that. Of course, it was August of
sixty nine. The sixties were aboutto die anyway, to be fair,
(14:09):
And I think Gavin Newsom is lookingat that too, just like Stephen Kage
is saying, no, you don'tunderstand these crimes were so horrible that she
can't be let out. Well,yes, they were shocking and horrible,
especially in nineteen sixty nine, butlook we've come a long way. We've
seen a lot worse since then.It might be different if Leslie van Houghten
(14:31):
had killed twenty people was a serialkiller, maybe we can get into some
different discussion there. But this wasone event. This was a double homicide
when she was nineteen years old.All happened on one night and if we're
splitting hairs, most of the damagethat Leslie herself did in these crimes was
(14:52):
done posthumously. Most of the stabwounds that she inflicted on the La Biancas
came after they had already been killedby other Manson family members. But I
won't use that as like, oh, so she didn't really do anything.
I'm fully going to acknowledge that sheis a murderer and she killed those people.
(15:13):
I've heard another argument that's basically like, well, keep in mind here,
Leslie van Houghton was taught by thegreatest manipulator of our lifetime, Charles
Manson. Okay, maybe you takethat view. That's debatable for me.
But the leap then that people takewith this is so she's manipulating the parole
(15:39):
board. This has been her planall along, is to seem like she's
doing well and she's okay and she'snot a threat, and then she's going
to get out and continue Charlie's vision. To me, that's absolutely absurd.
One one person that called into thatradio show went as far as to say,
oh, she'll get out. Yeah, she's seventy two, so she's
(16:02):
not really a threat herself. Wedon't need to fear her going killing people,
but she might teach others young peopleto be a threat. She could
influence them and manipulate them with allof her manipulation tactics that she learned under
Manson. She was nineteen, she'sseventy two. Now you think this woman
(16:26):
has been sitting in prison for fiftyyears, just waiting to get out to
continue Charlie's work, that she's playingsome kind of long game where she's like,
I'm going to get a college educationand I'm going to totally pull the
wool over the eyes of the administration. I'm going to help fellow inmates.
I'm going to get people rehabilitated.I'm going to become a counselor. I'm
(16:47):
going to do all this stuff sothat maybe when I'm like seventy seventy two
something like that, I'll get outand I can go murder more people or
teach young people how to murder people. Absolutely ridiculous. If you ask me,
you may disagree. And that's whatI want to hear about. I
want discussion about this. Okay,So again this is the podcast version.
(17:08):
You may not be able to reallyrespond to me other than sending emails,
but I do urge you to goover to the YouTube channel, find the
video that's related to this episode hereand interact with it there in the comments
section, and while you're at it, like and subscribe. Thanks, but
(17:29):
check this out. So in twentynineteen, the University of Newcastle in Australia
down on that did a study onrecidivism of paroled murderers. Did they reoffend
once they were paroled? And basicallywhat they did in the study was they
took data from Australia, the UnitedKingdom and the United States and looked at
(17:52):
murderers who were convicted of a singleinstance murder. Right, So sort of
what I was talking about just aminute ago about how this was one event.
Yes there were two killings, butit was one one event, two
people in the same house, samenight. So we're going to call that
a single instance murder. For Leslievan Houghton, she's a single instance murderer.
(18:15):
And of these single instance murderers whowent on to receive a full parole,
just seven percent reoffended by committing anycrime, so that includes shoplifting or
dui, petty theft, anything.Just zero point three percent went on to
commit another murder. Okay, that'sbasically no one. You know, it's
(18:41):
a few people, right, AndI'm willing to bet that that zero point
three percent of these single instance murderers, I'm willing to bet that none of
them had as exemplary a record inprison as Leslie Van Houghton. I bet
most of them did not get amaster's degree in counseling and develop programs to
help fellow inmates. Going out ona limb there, But that's just my
(19:04):
thought. They also probably weren't inprison for as long as Leslie van Houghton.
I remember hearing just on the radiothe other day and thinking about it
in this context that you know,Derek Chauvin, who killed George Floyd,
got twenty two years in prison.Right, that's just one example, But
we see all sorts of murderers getmuch, much, much less time than
(19:27):
Leslie Van Houghton. So I thinkwe're still trying to make an example of
her because it was so shocking atthat time fifty years ago. If this
happens today, a single instance murderlike this, she probably would get like
a twenty five to life kind ofthing, and parole would be much easier
(19:49):
to come by. I just thinkthis is appalling, as you can probably
tell. I just you know,what are we doing? What are we
saying here? I mean, we'reclearly saying that prison is just punishment,
right, I mean it's naive,I think anyway. And you know,
I don't really think that prison isa really rehabilitative place, certainly not in
(20:11):
this country. But if we wereeven going to entertain the idea that it
might be rehabilitative, we would haveto give Leslie van Houghten parole, right,
I mean, one could say toGovernor Newsome, Look, this should
be a testament to how well theCalifornia justice system works. Look what it's
(20:32):
done. It's rehabilitated one of themost heinous murderers of all time, right,
think of it from that angle.But no, no, of course
not, because prison is just punishment. We know that, and that's why
so many people that go into prisonend up being hopeless and maybe committing more
crimes in prison than going down deeperinto a spiral and getting out maybe in
(20:56):
committing more crimes. And it's thisendless cycle of awful Leslie didn't do that
though, right now, I'm suresome of you disagree, because, as
I say, most of the takesI hear disagree, which I still find
baffling or at least very interesting.I'm sure there are some people that must
agree with me here again, reallywant to hear your feedback on this,
(21:19):
But I don't know. Maybe thisis why I am not charged with making
these sorts of decisions. None ofus are. If only we had a
panel, you know, like apanel of experts whose job it was to
determine when an individual is ready forparole. If we had something like that,
(21:44):
Oh wait, we do. They'recalled parole boards. And in California,
in Leslie's case, the parole boarddecided five different times that Leslie van
Houghton has in fact pay her debtto society and is a perfect candidate for
parole. But Gavin Newsom and theCalifornia Supreme Court don't care about that.
(22:11):
Maybe you don't either, and that'sokay. As I say, I really
do want to hear your thoughts onthis. I know it's a controversial issue.
A lot of people are going tohave different takes. I'm sure.
Just keep it respectful with each otherin the comments section, please, So
I think that's it from me,Gang, I'll be back next time with
(22:34):
the standard fare more regular content foryou. Let me know if you like
this format though, if you wantme to keep it going like this on
the podcast, as they say,I'll be doing the vlogs anyway. That's
been something going on on YouTube fora little while now, and I can
just as easily do this as well. I found this to be kind of
fun, and I hope you dotoo. And this is actually, as
(22:56):
I mentioned in the video version,this has got me wanting to cover the
family again. In some way.Edse and I did cover the family a
couple of years ago. I thinkmight have been slightly less than a couple
of years ago. That episode,for whatever reason, didn't get as many
downloads or listens as some of ourothers, so I'm not sure why.
(23:17):
Maybe it got lost in the shufflethere, or maybe people are sick of
Manson. I don't know. Thatcould be a too, but we enjoyed
doing that episode. We thought itwas pretty good. I will leave the
link to that episode in the descriptionhere for you in case you're curious to
hear it. But yeah, Ithink I might just revisit the old Manson
(23:37):
family. Let me know if you'dlike that, maybe I could just do
a full episode on the life andcrimes of miss Leslie Van Houghton, who
I believe should be paroled.
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