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March 6, 2024 • 69 mins
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(00:04):
Thank you for listening to Pictures.Media Radio. Welcome to Policy and Rights,
the show about the government, policyand human rights. Welcome back to

(01:04):
Policy, It writes her own depictionsMedia Radio. I'm your host, Michael
Cloggs. Yesterday there was a reportfrom Prime Lina Patent, Special Representative to
the UN about violence and women,and she did a report on what is

(01:33):
going on in Gaza between Palestine andIsrael and violence against women. And while
she was giving the report on thepress room floor to many reporters, there
was a protest outside and one ofthe signs in that protest was me too,

(01:57):
I guess, except for if youare a Jew. And it brings
about the question of why Ms Pattendidn't want to share the names and some

(02:19):
of the more personal details about thosewho were reporting the crimes and what was
going to happen to those who perpetratedthe crimes. She said it was not
an investigation, that it was afactfinding mission, but factfinding to what end.
She never really described to what endthe fact finding was going to happen,

(02:46):
she said, She kept repeating,it's not an investigation, and we
don't know if they're going to beany charges laid. She said that they
gathered no real evidence, but theygathered the story of these women who had
had been victims to the violence.So we're going to play that particular piece

(03:13):
all over again and its entirety,and you're going to get to hear what
some of the reporters actually asked thatwe had clipped out in a previous podcast.
Along with that, I want wantedto report a couple other things today
that in the news today there wereother things reported on in Canada that an

(03:49):
inquiry into why some live workers inWinnipeg were fired was defeated. Demotion for
the inquiry was heated by the LiberalParty and the NDP party jointly. The
Conservatives want to know what was goingon and what was shared, what wasn't

(04:13):
shared, and what protocols were actuallybroken, as I think the public really
wants to know what happened that thisparticular worker was just simply let go,
what happened, Why was he letgo, especially since it was an infectious

(04:33):
disease laboratory in Winnipeg. Along withthat, we have that in the news
in the United States that the SupremeCourt has ruled that Donald Trump can remain
on the ballots in all states,and then it will be illegal to remove

(04:57):
him from the ballot by any state. My question is, how is it
that Donald Trump is allowed to beon the ballots when he is subject to
a criminal investigation for inciting a riotas his last term as president ended.

(05:29):
So transparency reasoning from the government iswhat we're actually looking for. We went
all victims of violence to be ableto share their stories safely and equitably.

(05:50):
So why don't we listen to ProbablinaPatten as she reported on what is going
on in Israel with her fact findingmission. It was not an investigation.
All right, good afternoon. Weare delighted that you here. We're delighted

(06:13):
to be joined by Promeila Patten,who is, as you know, the
Secretariginal Special Representative for Sexual Violence inConflict. She is joined by Chloe Morte
Basse, who is an expert inher office, and Miss pat and Cloyer
here to brief you on their recenttravels to Israel and the occupied Pascian territory.
I believe Miss Pan will have someopening remarks and then we will take

(06:36):
your questions. Miss thank you Stefan. Good afternoon, members of the press,
and thank you for being here.I know you've all been waiting for
this briefing for a while. Ijust want to start by the mission dates
to say that, following an invitationthat I received from the Government of Israel

(07:00):
to first handed their quote here andsee the testimonies and evidence of these heinous
acts of conflicrated sexual violence, Iled an official visit to Israel from the
twenty ninth of January to the fourteenthof February, and I was supported by
a technical team with relevant expertise suchas a forensic pathologist, digital and open

(07:26):
source information and analysts, in additionto specialist in the safe and ethical interviewing
of victim, survivors and witnesses ofsexual violence crimes. I'm stress that my
mission was neither intended nor mandated tobe investigative in nature. This is a

(07:46):
mandate vested in other UN bodies Priorto the mission. The scope and parameters
of the visit were agreed in advancewith the Israeli authorities, the objective being
to gather, analyze, and verifyreports of conflict related sexual violence related to
the Hamas led terror attacks of seventhof October and in there after month in

(08:11):
order to inform reporting in the exerciseof my mandate, including to the UN
Security Council, considering that prior tothe mission, I had received reports allegedly
committed by Israeli security forces and settlers. One of the parameters of the visit,

(08:33):
which I insisted upon with the Governmentof Israel, was a visit to
the occupied West Bank to engage withthe Palestine authorities, Hevil society, organizations,
release detainees, and other relevant actors, and to raise these allegations with
the Israeli government, to which theyagreed. Considering the ongoing hostilities, I

(08:56):
did not request to visit the datastrips, where I must say there are
several other UN entities present and operational, including some that actually monitor in address
sexual and gender based violence, andwho will send information to my office as
is the usual practice for its inclusionin the annual Report of the Secretary General.

(09:20):
In terms of standard of proof,the visit adhered to standard UN methodology,
and we conducted our work in accordancewith the principles of independence, impartiality,
objectivity, transparency, integrity, andthe principle of do no harm,
including in relation to guarantees of confidentialityand the protection of victims and witnesses.

(09:43):
We also followed a survivor victims centeredand trauma inform approach. The standard of
proof we adopted is one of reasonablegrounds to believe, consistent with the practice
of other investigative bodies, and ourconclusions were based on our own assessment of

(10:03):
the credibility and reliability of the witnesseswe met, verifying the sources, cross
referencing the relevant material and information,and assessing whether in all the circumstances there
was sufficient credible and reliable information tomake a finding in fact. But I

(10:24):
must say that where more information hassupported a finding of fact, we have
made a finding of clear and convincinginformation which is above reasonable grounds to believe
and beyond the threshold of beyond thereasonable doubt. And you will see in
the report that this is the casewith regard to our findings related to hostages.

(10:46):
We regard to our findings of circumstantialinformation, it has the ordinary definition
of that term, which is thatsuch information is indirect and does not on
its face proved the fact in issue, but gives rise to a logical inference
that the fact exists. The teamconducted a total of thirty three meetings with

(11:11):
Israeli institutions, including relevant line ministriesas well as Israeli defense forces. But
it's all in the report. Iwill not go over it. We conducted
confidential interviews with thirty four people,including with survivors and witnesses of the seventh
of October attacks, released hostages,first responders, and service providers, and

(11:35):
we also met with families and relativesof hostages still held in captivity. In
addition to some other actors. Theteam reviewed over five thousand photographic images and
some fifty hours of footage of theattacks, provided partly by various state agencies,
but also through our own independent onlinereview of various open sources. Though

(12:03):
I must add that we found thematerial provided by the national agencies to be
authentic and unmanipulated, and a lotof those footage was captured through militants body
cams and dashcoms, individual cell phoneCCTV and traffic surveillance cameras. I will
go over the challenges that we metbecause that will help you to understand our

(12:24):
findings. So we encountered a numberof challenges in both the gathering and verification
of incidents of sexual violence, andthese include limited professionally gathered forensic material,
inaccurate and unreliable forensic interpretation by somenon professionals, the extremely limited availability of

(12:48):
victims and survivors and witnesses of sexualviolence due partly to the internal displacement of
affected communities, the lack of publictrust and confidence in that and international institutions,
including the UN, but also thequestioning by some interlocutors of the narrow
focus of the mission on crimes ofsexual violence, given the range of other

(13:11):
grave crimes committed on the seventh ofOctober and it's aftermath, and of course
the length of time of the missionwe were there for only two and a
half weeks. I also need tosay that in that context, we did
not meet with any survivor of sexualviolence of the seventh of October attacks,
despite our efforts. On the veryfirst they are made a call for survivors

(13:31):
to come forward, but we receivedinformation that a handful of them were receiving
very specialized trauma treatment and were notprepared to come forward. The mission was
a difficult one in terms of whatwe heard and the details of the most

(13:52):
shocking brutality of the attacks by Hamasand other arm groups that we received.
We saw a catalog of the mostextreme inhumane forms of torture and other horrors,
but the mission helped us to betterunderstand the context of the attacks,
how it was coordinated attack by Hamasand other armed groups including Palestine and Istamic
Jihad, popular resistance committees, otherarm elements, and armed and armed civilians.

(14:18):
It helped us to understand the complexhow the complexity and murders operanti of
these attacks, which included multiple civilianand military targets, demonstrated a significant level
of planning, coordination, and priorknowledge of the targets selected. The report
also sets how it sets out howAmass and the other armed elements came very

(14:41):
well equipped with a range of highcaliber and military grade weapons. Interviews with
stakeholders and materials reviewed described an indiscriminatecampaign to kill, inflict, suffering,
and abduct the maximum number possible ofmen, women and children, soldiers and
civilians alike in the minimum possible amountof time. Coming to the findings.

(15:07):
With regard to the hostages taken toGaza, we found clear and convincing information
that sexual violence, including rape,sexualized torture, cruel in human and degrading
treatment has been committed against captives,and we also have reasonable grounds to believe
that such violence may still be ongoingagainst those still held in captivity. I

(15:33):
pause and must add that I amof the strong opinion that this finding does
not in any way legitimize further violence, but actually reinforces the need for en
ergencies fire. US continuing this warwill not serve or protect will we not
serve to protect hostages from risk offurther sexual violence. And I think,

(15:56):
on the contrary, for the sakeof the hostel is a ceasefire should be
a priority. And I also wantto raiterate that eradicating sexual violence is fundamentally
an agent for peace, and asthe SG, other UN colleagues, and
I have continuously reiterated, the endgoal of this mandai is not a war

(16:17):
without rape, but a world withoutwar. And in this regard I greater
rate the sg's consistent call for urgenthumanitarian seas fire. Another finding, we
also found that there are reasonable groundsto believe that conflict related sexual violence,
including rape and gang rape, occurredduring the seventh of October attacks in at

(16:42):
least three locations, namely the NovaMusic Festival site and its surroundings Road two
three to two and kibutz Ragin andin most of these incidents victims were first
subjected to rape and then killed,and at least two incidents relate to the
rape of women's corpses. And asyou know, the Nova Music Festival we

(17:06):
found was a site of grave violations, including brutal mass murders, with several
hundreds of bodies recovered from the site. In addition to many abductions, bodies
were also found with extensive burn damage. Then, a third set of findings
is that across multiple locations, wefound a recurring pattern of victims found fully

(17:30):
or partially undressed, bound and shot, and we found that, although circumstantial,
such a pattern may be indicative ofsome forms of sexual violence, including
sexualized torture, cruel inhuman and degradingtreatment. At the same time, with
regard to kibutz Bery, I mentionedKibutzbery because it was firstly severely affected by

(17:56):
the seventh of October attacks, havingsuffered a significant number of casualties, over
ten percent of its population killed,including children, and some fifty people taken
hostage. To gather some allegations ofsexual violence previously reported and highly publicized in
the media were determined by us tobe unfounded, and I'm here I'll just

(18:21):
give one example referring to the allegationof a pregnant woman whose womb had reportedly
been ripped open before she was killed, with her feet as stabbed while still
inside her. You will also seein the report that there are many references
to reported incidents of sexual violence withrespect to different locations which we could not

(18:42):
verify for many different reasons. Comingto my visit to the occupied West Bank.
With regard to that visit whose purposewas different, considering that we have
you and verified information on conflict relatedsexual violence, which will be as I
mentioned, included in the Annual Reportof the Secretary General. We nevertheless received

(19:04):
whilst there from several interlocutors information aboutcruel, in human and degrading treatment of
Palestinians men and women in detention alsounder the administrative detention, including sexual violence
in the forms of invasive body searches, threats of rape, and prolonged forced

(19:25):
nudity. Concerns were also raised aboutdisproportionate physical and sexual violence, including sexual
harassment and threats of rape during houseraids, including at night and at checkpoints.
But again other un entities present inthe occupied West Bank have collected more
in depth information in this regard.In the Reporter, I have made a

(19:48):
number of recommendations, including encouraging theGovernment of Israel to grant access to the
Office of the High Commissioner for HumanRights and the Independent International Commission of Inquiry
to conduct a fully fledged, fullyfledged independent investigations, calling on Hamas to
immediately and unconditionally release all individuals heldin captivity and to ensure their protection,

(20:11):
including from sexual violence. Encouraging theGovernment of Israel to consider signing a framework
of cooperation with my office to strengthencapacity on justice and accountability for conflict related
sexual violence, but also security sectorengagement, training and oversight to prevent and
address conflict related sexual violence. Andof course I echo again the course of

(20:34):
the Secretary General for Humanitarian Seas fireto alleviate the suffering of civilians in Gaza.
But before I come quite amus addthat the true prevalence of sexual violence
during the Seventh of October attacks andthereafter mouth may take months or years to
emerge and may never be fully known, given that sexual violence remains chronically under

(20:59):
reported climate in every conflict affected settingdue to trauma, stigma and fear phase
by survivors, but also in thecontext of Israel, where many did not
survive the sexual violence, and asin other conflict affected context there is a

(21:21):
significant likelihood that the findings of mymission, the mission that I led,
in terms of verified valuations, onlypartially reflect the crimes actually committed. And
that is why there is a dedicatedrecommendation for for access to h HR and
this I'll be very happy to takesome of your questions. Thank you very

(21:42):
much, EDI. Please, thankyou very much. Mss Patten Edith letter
off from the Associated Press on behalfof the United Nations Correspondence Association. Welcome
and thank you for doing this briefingwhich I know many of us have been

(22:03):
waiting for. A couple of followup questions. First, you use the
words reasonable grounds quite often. Isthere a scale of how that ranks in
terms of credibility and how would youdescribe that? And secondly, was there

(22:33):
any evidence that you saw that youbelieve could lead to the identification of specific
perpetrators of this sexual violence? Thankyou? I think okay, okay,

(22:53):
perfectly well, and I think youmissed it because I need to address the
standard of proof that we used,that we adopted being of reasonable grounds to
believe consistent with the practice of investigativebodies, and how did we draw our
conclusion. We base based on ourown assessment of the credibility and reliability of

(23:15):
the witnesses that we met, butwe also verified the sources, cross reference
the relevant material and information and assessingwhether, in all the circumstances that there
was sufficient credible and reliable information tomake a finding. With regard to your

(23:36):
question about attribution. Not being aninvestigative body, and given the short period
of time that we were on theground, and given the purpose of the
mission being to gather verify information forits inclusion in the annual Report of the
Secretary General and briefing to the SecurityCouncil, we did not go into attribution.

(24:00):
And but that doesn't mean that it'sI mean, I think attribution is
not an impossible exercise. That's that'swhy I make a call for a proper
for a fully fledged investigation that couldactually focus on attribution and accountability. What
I was really trying to get atwas, is there a higher standard than

(24:27):
reasonable grounds, what would be evenmore compelling well again, I explained this
in my presentation that where we receivedmore more information that for example, in
the case of the hostages, havingmet hostages firsthand, we made a finding

(24:51):
of clear and convincing information, whichis higher than reasonable grounds to believe,
but lower than the standard beyond thereasonable doubt for a criminal case. And
then the last one is the circumstantial, the circumstantial information and in any case
rape being what it is, leavingno tangible visible injuries, in many instances

(25:18):
one has to rely on circumstantial evidenceand witness testimony. Thank you Ji,
Yes, miss Patton. Should youwith China Central Television here, please help
me comprehend this. The objective ofthis visit was to gather, analysis and
analyze, verify allegations. And yetit's not an investigative nature. You interviewed

(25:45):
more than thirty four people, hadthirty three meetings, review over five thousand
photos, fifty hours of video.Then what is the nature of this?
These are not investigations? Is thatit one question? One question? One

(26:07):
question? Yes, I mean,like maybe I'll tell you what did not
what an investigation would entail that wedid not do. Like I said,
we went to gather, not justto collect in terms of being handing over
being given information. So we wentto cognizance of what the Israeli authorities had

(26:32):
to present to us with the verificationprocess and the analysis process, but we
also gathered independent information. Unlike aninvestigation, which would contains clear terms of
reference and would include tasks like investigatingall alleged violations of international humanitarian law and

(26:55):
abuses of international human rights law,we looked at sexual violence pretty much in
a vacuum the way an investigation wouldcollect and analyze evidence of such violations and
crimes perpetrated. We collected information,which is which is completely a different threshold.
We we did not record or preserveinformation, documentation and evidence, including

(27:19):
interviews withitness, testimony, and forensicmaterial. We did not identify those responsible
with a view to ensuring that perpetratorsof violations are held accountable. We did
not make recommendations on accountability. Weconducted a mission over over two and a

(27:40):
half weeks, and we did notlook at the root causes to miss still
like an investigation, Sorry it soundsto miss. Still like an investigation.
I mean, you got you havethe result, you have all those working
methods, right, Okay, maybecorrect, you can add a few ads.

(28:00):
I'll add a few elements to tryto kind of make the difference.
There are different threshold of standards interms of how you deal with events of
such type as the SRSG has mentioned. You know, we gathered but we
did not collect. It might notmake sense to you, but it's quite
important for the lawyer that I am. It makes very much difference also if

(28:26):
you collect or gather information or ifyou collect or gather evidence. We did
not collect or gather evidences. Similarly, also, we looked only at one
crime. We didn't look at thenexus of crime. If you're doing an
investigation, you need to look atthe full fledge of the fact. In
the case of an international investigation,you would need to basically look at the

(28:51):
way the attack was conducted, therelevant command control of those who were conducting
the attack. We did not lookinto this. Why we cannot make attribution
which an investigation like the COI,for example, on the same region would
be doing and is doing. Ingenerally speaking, we also did not have

(29:12):
a number of specialized capacity that youwould require if you had investigation, for
example, no military expert, andobviously an investigation takes month because you're corroborating
individual crimes as individual crimes. Thisexercise looks at and you will see that

(29:32):
reference in the report a finding offact, not a finding of law,
which means we also did not saywhat kind of crime. We did not
make a leal assessment of it,which an investigation would do. So there
is a number of very significant differencesbetween the two types of exercises, so
legally speaking, So legally speaking,this report, the finding of this report

(29:53):
cannot be evidence, not at all. Like I said, the finding is
will be used for the purpose ofthe Annual Report of the Sectary General,
which will be debated before the Councilon the twenty fifth of April. And
given the methodology of our work,we need you and verified information in in

(30:14):
information that we pass onto the SecurityCouncil. Thank you, Michelle. Thank
you Michelle Nichols from Reuters, thanksfor the briefing. I just wanted to
quickly ask about some of the dates. You were first invited at the start
of November and then you accepted atthe end of November. Why did it

(30:37):
sort of take another two months foryou on the ground, and then with
regard to your call for or yousaying that you know a fully fully fledged
investigation is needed to sort of lookat the scope and attribution and whatnot.
Who do you think might be bestplace to carry out such an investigation?
Thanks right. Indeed, I receivean invitation on the AID for November,

(31:02):
and I responded positively on the twentyseventh of November, and because in the
letter of invitation they wanted me tocome as soon as possible, and I
responded on the twenty seventh of Novemberindicating that I would be able to come
with a team on the eighth ofDecember, the week of the eighth of
December, but that did not happenbecause the permanent representative did not meet with

(31:30):
me until the twelfth in spite ofreceiving the letter on the twenty seventh in
which I proposed those dates. Themeeting we had was on the eleventh or
twelfth of December, when he wasthen suggesting the week the Christmas week or
the New Years. He suggested theweek of the twenty sixth of December or

(31:52):
the second of January, and Iindicated to him that that would not be
possible because I'll be on leave andso will be many members of my team
and then we had to then wesettle for the dates of the twenty eighth
In terms of I think, oh, and the Commission of Inquiry has the

(32:17):
relevant mandate. I mean, likeyou would know that the Human Rights Council
on the twenty seventh of May twentytwenty one established this ongoing independent international Commission
of Inquiry and it has a broadmandate to look into all Allied valiations of

(32:39):
international humanitarian and abusers of international humanrights law in Israel but also in a
pit in a pit including East Jerusalemsince thirteenth of April twenty twenty one.
So I think the COI is thebest place to do this work. Bill,

(33:04):
thank you. Nobilla's a lot ofe TV stations, so maybe I
missed it. But have you metsurvivors or victims? And you said that
some of the bodies were shot ormaybe were subject to sexual violence and then
they were killed after that. Haveyou seen these bodies yourself? And also

(33:30):
you said that you still believe thatsexual violence is perpetrated in against the captives
in Gaza. What makes you believethat they're sexual violence hostage against the hostages?

(33:51):
Yes, so what makes you believethat they are still subject to sexual
violence. But as you will seein the report, we say that we
I did not meet with any survivorsof sexual violence of the seventh of October
attacks or it's aftermath. We tried, We tried, but we received information

(34:12):
that a handful of survivors were receivingvery specialized trauma treatment and were too traumatized
to speak. And you know,I know from experience that survivors of sexual
violence that is it's, it's,it's, it's a very sensitive issue and
that they need to come forward intheir own time, on their own terms.

(34:37):
So we did not We did notpush, but we had credible evidence
for a number of cases, whichwhich I have mentioned and which are in
the report. With regards to hostages, we met with hostages and received firsthand
information, and that's what we baseour finding upon. So you mean your

(34:58):
conclusion is based on medical reports orwitnesses or what kind of information exactly firsthand
with regard to the hostages, firsthandcredible information in terms of my assessment of
credibility, and were verifying and crossreferencing a habit and John. My name

(35:22):
is Abdurrahmids. I am from theArabic Daily alkotzil Aarabi. I hope,
I hope you will be patient withsome of my questions. First, I
expected you to say a few wordsabout the one hundred thousand Palestinians who were
killed and maimed and buried under theRabel and the destruction of the people,
of the lives of the people inGaza completely. So going to the issue

(35:47):
now, I wish you could comparehow many the hours you spent in Israel
and the hours you spend in theWest Bank. And did you meet with
those Israeli released hostages who spoke inpublic, how they were respected, how
they were treated. One of themsaid they protected us with their bodies.

(36:12):
Did you see the Israeli hostage wholift the captivity with her puppy in her
arms. Did you see that theycame out with their mineral waters in their
hand healthy? Did you talk tothem? Did you talk to the Palestinians
who were also released. Did youtalk to Adit Tamimi, who came out
broken cannot now talk to anyone.Did you talk to the people who are

(36:37):
involved with these I see this reportwith I apologize for saying it's only a
validation of the Israeli narrative and wejust got the report. We just got
the report recently. We didn't havetime to read it well. But can
you just address that there is awoman being raped and she bent the finger

(37:00):
of her rapist. How could youstand with the rapist? Thank you.
In terms of the hours that Ispent in Ramallah, I was in Israel
for one week and I arrived onthe twenty I started my work on the
twenty ninth, and the last dayof work was the fourth of February,

(37:22):
and I was in Ramala for oneday, one full day, and my
technical team went back for another day. So I was just there for a
week, and they were there foran extra one week and a half.
The hours of time, in termsof the amount of time spent in occupied
Palestian territory and Israel would determined.It is the fact that the purpose of

(37:45):
the mission, the purpose of theI don't have to go to occupied Palestinian
territory to collect or to gather informationbecause I received U and verified information.
The specificity of the mission in Israelis because of the absence of any UN
agencies and the need for you andverified information for its inclusion into the Annual

(38:09):
Report of the Secret General. Hencethe distinction between between between in terms of
the amount of time spent there.And I can tell you that there is
an abundance of information from the otherside that we have already received. Because
we launched our as for our usualmethodology for the purpose of preparing the Annual

(38:34):
Report of the Secretary General, wesent Kashunair out in the field, and
we did send our Kashnair back inOctober to to UNUA unsco H THEACHR for
information for information to be included inthe sg's report. But because I had
some information already in December, whenI was like considering the the to accept

(39:00):
the invitation of the Israeli authorities,I said this as a parameter, as
I explained, and wanted to raiseit with the Israeli authorities, which which
I which I did. In termsof the hostages, I cannot disclose who
I have met because I have topreserve and that is why we have only
issued an edited version of the confidentialreport that I gave to the Secret channeral

(39:25):
last week because it's it's out.It's to to in the spirit of preserving
the confidentiality of those that I metand the sources. I can only tell
you that I have met released hostagesand that I found their version to be
extremely credible. I have met forPalestinian detainees recently released, and I got

(39:53):
very disturbing information from from them whichI have which I have mentioned, uh,
physical threats of rape, which whichI have, which I have highlighted.
Thank you? Would Israel allow NAVPLAto enter and investigate? Chance?
You should? You should? You? Should? You should ask this?

(40:14):
Rady? Yeah, like you amaware that they have and that is why
one of the first recommendations, ifyou look at the recommendation section at the
very end of the report, oneof the first recommendations that I make to
the Israeli government is to give accessto OHDHR and or Commission of Inquiry to
conduct fully fledged investigations. Down thenit's to some Thank you for the briefing,

(40:37):
Don Clancy with past Lou I havea follow up and then a question.
You mentioned the survivors that you didn'tget to meet with, that you
were told that they are seeking specializedtreatment, they're too traumatized. How do
you how do you know that whotold you that they're seeking I'm sorry I
cannot disclose that information. Okay,then my other questionsn't forgive me it because

(41:02):
I feel like with this report,I'm now a little bit more confused than
I was before I read it.I noticed on social media that you had
met with a ZAKA volunteer. Hisname's Yosi Landau. Yosi Landau has been
in the media. He was theNew York Times investigation that was that has

(41:24):
been through the shredder at this pointas far as figuring out what's accurate and
what's not. In this report,you mentioned that there was a media report
about a woman who was pregnant.Her stomach was ripped open, the baby
was ripped out, it was stabbedthe umbilical cord. That story came from
Yosie Landau, who on social mediayou can see on their ZAKA Instagram page

(41:46):
you met with. So when Isee that and then I read this report,
I'm lost to what extent do Ibelieve this? This isn't an investigation,
but it kind of is. Sothen how is this any different than
the New York Times story? Ifyou're just collecting evidence, I'm just really

(42:06):
trying to I mean, if I'mnot being clear, please let me know
it now, Well, you're indeednot very clear. But what wasn't clear?
Well, I mean like I don'tget the gist of the question.
I mean like, I think myreport is pretty straightforward. We explained that

(42:27):
we went to four different locations basedon on on my question, is you
met with Yoland? He's the creatorof that I will? I know,
I get your question. I mean, first of all, yeah, I
mean, like, first of all, I you because you're talking about social
media. Yes, indeed you've seenyou've seen the photo and it was at

(42:49):
Keybootsberry. It was at Keybootsberry.And if you read the section of the
report starting with paragraph paragraph sixty two, we say what we have been able
to verify and that we went therebecause of the attention paid paid to keep

(43:12):
it very and sexual violence. AndI have mentioned in my report at least
two allegations previously reported that we foundto be to be unfounded, and we
explain that it's due to either newsuperseding information or inconsistency in the information gathered,
including first responded testimonies, photographic evidence, and other information. And I

(43:37):
give two examples. Yes, wefound it to be to be unfounded.
Can I can I just call upreally quick. Please. The reason I'm
asking this is because there are realconsequences to this report. I mean,
I know you keep saying the Commissionof Inquiry they need to go and do
their investigation, which I believe they'redoing, but the Israeli ambassador to the

(43:59):
UN has said publicly we're not goingto cooperate with that, so that that
recommendation is already d A. Iguess you could say, are you at
all concerned that this report sexual violenceagainst women? This is being weaponized as
a way to continue violence in Gaza. That's that's why I'm asking these questions,

(44:22):
because it's this is this is animportant report. Well, I understand
that the invitation to me came asa result of pressure from civil society organizations
in Israel and academia, and Ido hope and I can tell you that

(44:42):
when I was there, no onetold me it's too too, too late,
or you came too late. Onthe contrary, many interlocutors told me
we are still moaning, why whyare you here and why this narrow focus
on on on sexual violence? Andeverywhere throughout the report you see that I

(45:02):
mentioned that could not be verified andverification would entail a proper investigation, a
proper investigation, and I hope thatthe relevant stakeholders in Israel would pick it
up and put pressure on their governmentto have a fully fledged investigation that would
be able to cast real light onwhat really happened or close to get as

(45:28):
close as possible to what happened.And I fully, fully agree with what
you're saying. I mean that iswhy, in spite of not being an
investigation, I did not want togo and to rubber stamp anything that's given
to me. And I took thetrouble of including I'm a small office,
I am totally almost totally dependent onextra vedgetary resources, but still found it

(45:52):
necessary to equip myself with some expertisethat included a forensic pathologist, a digital
analyst. If to something might andthen we'll have to go online. Hi
maniames some as a Larabi newspaper.I have a few follow ups. First

(46:13):
regarding the issue that touched up youtouched upon at the end and the issue
of the fact that your mandate wasnot of investigative mandate. And the question
for me is then if it wasn'tinvestigative, why then issuing the report,

(46:34):
if you could clarify that, Andthen there are several issues that you both
talked about, and if you couldclarify the issue of information and evidence,
because you keep talking about you gotinformation, but I'm not sure it's if
it's the same as evidence or myimpression was that you're making a differentiation.

(46:57):
If you could please clarify that.And then also the videos that you saw
and the information that you got,were you able to like collect that in
order to pass this to the COIcommittee for their investigation. And last thing

(47:20):
about your paragraph regarding Postingian women thespecial there was a statement issued by Special
Reporteurs about two weeks ago that theysaid that at least two female Palastinian detainees
were reportedly raped, while others werereportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence,

(47:43):
et cetera. So my question here, I don't see in your paragraph regarding
posting and detenees, I don't seeany talk about rape, but you talked
about other stuff of course. Butalso so if you could clarify this,
thank you. Sure. Yeah.Coming back to the fact that the mandate
is not investigative in nature and thatthe purpose of the mission was to was

(48:08):
to gather, analyze and verify informationfor its potential inclusion in reporting to the
Security Council. I think I haveexplained this because otherwise, without this mission,
there will be a total blackout inthe report of the Secretary Journal with

(48:29):
regard to to the seventh of Octoberattacks. And and that that was that
was the context information versus evidence.I mean, like I think you've answered
it yourself. I mean, likewe're not talking evidence will stand in a
code of law. We did not, We did not collect, we did

(48:53):
not. We are not the custodianof any material from this and and your
question is about the raw footage orthe photos. We did not. So
we have nothing. We have nothingexcept for this report to pass on.
It's a public report, so wehave nothing to pass on to the Commission

(49:15):
of Inquiry because we have not collectedany anything, no witness testimony, no
footage, no photos that we canwe can handle. But we're not the
custodian of of of any any anymaterial. But if I may ask,
why not, because it's not clear, because that is not that that is

(49:37):
not because it's not an investigation becauseI did not call it. But weren't
you suppose also to partly bring thisevidence to the committee. Not not at
all. I've explained what was thepurpose of the mission. The purpose of
the mission was to gather and verifythe information for its potential inclusion in the
annual report of the Sectary General,which is a prerogative. The information base

(49:58):
is there. It is for thesecond in General to to to decide on
what goes in into into his report. But he needed that you went verified
information. So verification part was waswas crucial and that is why in the
report wherever we were not in aposition to verify, we have been very
candid to say that we got reportsof a number of incidents, but we

(50:22):
were not able to verify and thebulk and we have explained. I also
explained all the challenges that we encounteredlinked to the fact that there was no
proper crime processing because of all theyou know of the challenges posed to the
Israeli authorities. You know, multiplelocations, multiple perpetrators, high mass casualties,

(50:45):
uh and and the priority they prioritizedrescue operation over for collection of forensic
evidence. They prioritized identify, recovery, identification and burial because of according to
religious practices over over collection of forensicevidence that there was. There was very

(51:09):
little, There was very very littleforensic forensic evidence. So these are the
challenge. These are some of thechallenges that that that we face, and
that's why we found we found becauselike I said, rape does not leave
tangible visible traces of injuries, noteven loss of blood, and so we

(51:32):
we we that's why in the reportwe we take the stand that this is
circumstantial because you see a photo ofa woman naked, it does not come
be rare, but it is circumstantial. It is circumstantial indicators which require further

(51:52):
That's that's why I'm going to comeback to the to the investigation, to
a fully fully fledged investigation. There'sa lot of lot of circumstantial information that
we that we that we gathered whenit comes to the Palestinian women. As
I said, I engaged with thePalestinian ambassador before before going on two occasions

(52:16):
before going on mission and ask himto facilitate access to a number of recently
released detainees. And we were ableto meet before recently released detainees. I
did not receive, but I didn'tgo to gather information again. I met

(52:37):
I stressed that I did not goto but I met with them, as
I met with civil society organization,Independent Human Rights Commission, a number of
line ministries and a large number ofcivil society organizations. And I did not
get any information about rape. Igot information about threats of rape. I

(53:00):
have taken cognizance of the report ofthe Special Reporter on Violence against Women,
who is an independent expert. Butwe we went on on on on a
mission and we we are we.I am here to report what I found.
So I have told you what Ihave in terms of information received and

(53:22):
from from my visit to Ramallah,and I will take into account the un
verified information that I would receive fromfrom relevant un entities task to document and
monitor and monitor cases. Mike,Mike Wagon, I'm with I twenty four
News. Firstly, thank you fordoing the briefing today. Has the door

(53:45):
been left open at all? Firstquestions? Has door been left open at
all to go back and speak withthose victims that are currently undergoing a traumatic
treatment after their treatment is over?Has that possibility been left open? I
have made a recommendation in the reportto encourage the government of Israel to sign

(54:07):
a framework of cooperation with my office, which then could if there is such
a framework of cooperation that would includecertainty support to survivors of sexual violence,
that could eventually pave the way becausevictims take time. I mean like I
have come across victims reporting after twentyfive years in Bosnia, you know,

(54:29):
and they will come forward in theirown time, on their own terms.
Understandable. Second question, I understandfully the recommendations to turn an investigation over
to the COI and the Office ofthe Commissioner of Human Rights. But in
the meantime, your report is goingto the Secretary General, your report to
the Security Council. What advice asa professional, as an advocate would you

(54:50):
give them to do with this report? What course of action would you recommend
to them? Having gathered this information? Them is who the secret Very General
and the UN Security Council. Yourreport, your reports will go to them.
Correct, Yes, my report hasgone already to the to the Secretary
General. So what do you feelis a proper course of action for them

(55:12):
to take at this point? Wellto certainty to to reinforce my recommendation regarding
fully fledged information, a fully fledgedinvestigation by competent you and U n bodies
otherwise, I echo his called thatof the Secretary General for for Humanitarian cease
fire and in the context as Isaid of the findings regarding the hostages,

(55:35):
I think more than ever a ceasefire is should be should be a priority,
So that that would be that wouldbe my call, because uh,
this is what can can protect thethat that's what can protect the hostages still
in captivity a cease fire. Lastquestion, is there an on Is there

(55:58):
an ongoing conversation about framework of cooperation? No? No, I mean,
like my report is being made publictoday. When I discussed it in uh
in Israel, I did not getany any any, any any sense,
any feedback, any any any positivefeedback. I mean, like it was

(56:20):
it was left in the open.But now it's it is in the form
of a recommendation. So the ballis in the court of the government of
Israel. We're going to take twoquick online questions foreign as FACILITI foreigners.
So thank you very much, canyou hear me, thank you very much
for doing this thing. This isfar as I see from the New York

(56:42):
Times. I have two questions onthe issue of your meetings in the West
Bank and the references to some ofthe allegations about sexual violence on Palestinian women.
The report only says that you heardthis from the people you interview.
It doesn't make any conclusions about whatyou find what you found in the same

(57:04):
way that it made Did you findcredible, like you said, credible and
clear information? Did you find groundsto believe? What is the term?
So what is your founding? Uh? In terms of the Palestinians. The
other question I have is would yousay that that that you found a pattern

(57:30):
of sexual violence? Uh? Uh? That was a strategy of Hamas both
in the October seventh attacks and inregards to the hostages. Uh. And
the third question I have, sorryis kibut Sperry. The report says that
you couldn't verify incidents of rape andsexual violence. Uh. And and then

(57:52):
you specifically point to two cases mentionedby media and say they were unfounded.
Do you mean that only these twoincidents in Keywoodsbury you couldn't verify, or
do you mean that you couldn't verifyany incidence of sexual violence in Keboardsbury?
Thank you very much. Right,yeah, precisely because the purpose of the

(58:17):
visit in the West Bank was completelydifferent to the visit in Israel, which
was precisely to collect and verify informationin the West Bank. I went because
I had received u and verified informationabout some reports of sexual violence allegedly perpetrated

(58:38):
by idea of soldiers and settlers.And as I said earlier, I made
this point to insist as one ofthe parameters of the visit that I am
allowed to go, that I'm ableto go to the West Bank and to
raise all reports with So that's exactlywhat I did. There was no point

(58:59):
for me to to gather, toverify, to come to any any any
any conclusion. And as I saidso, information for the occupied West Bank,
for Gaza will come from the relevantun entities, and we have asked
this information since October in line withour methodology for the preparation of the Annual

(59:24):
Report of the of the Secretary General. With regard to the question of verification,
maybe I'll give the floor to toChloe, because she was there for
an extra and a half week.The verification work was done mostly by by
the technical team led by her,So I'll let her. But I just

(59:49):
want to come to know we didnot make make any finding us to any
pattern, because we did not lookinto We did not look into attribution and
you can imagine that, but itis hard to to do a serious attribution
exercise in two and a half weeks, given the multiple locations, the multiple

(01:00:15):
perpetrators, and the high high casualtieswith this Chloe, Yeah, just done.
Okay on Barry. Just to clarify, what we found was that there
were two allegations we looked into thatwere unfounded, and they're very well described

(01:00:37):
in the report and you'll recognize thembecause they were highly publicized in the press.
The rest we could not verify.So, in short, to answer
your question, no, we couldnot verify any sexual violence in Berry at
this point, which does not meannecessarily it didn't occur. It means we

(01:00:58):
couldn't verify it. And two ofthe cases we were that were reported were
found to be unfounded. In fact, I just wanted to work. There's
a third one, Chloe, wherewhere we there was an allegation that there
were objects like knives inserted in thegenitalia of a woman. I mean,

(01:01:19):
the team reviewed the photos and wedid not find anything anything anything like that.
And I did mention like one ofthe challenges faced by of course by
the Israeli government, but which impactedour own work was the fact that inaccurate,
unreliable conclusion, forensic conclusions were drawnby untrained volunteer first responders, and

(01:01:49):
we give some examples. We givesome examples in the reports, such as
interpreting an anal dilation anal penetration whenaccording to our forensic expert, it's it's
we we've extensive burn damage. Thisis this is what you get in dilation,

(01:02:10):
and and the position of the bodyas a result of severe burn damage
again interpreted as being sexual violence.We've spread legs, et cetera, so
so that that also it may notbe in battery. I don't know,
but it is a fact that wefound many instances of unreliable, inaccurate forensic

(01:02:34):
interpretation by untrained, untrained people fromparts online and their fraind Yes. Hello,
miss Paton, thank you very muchfor the briefing. I think Fornas
actually ask this question, but Iam not sure. You're addressed quite directly,

(01:02:59):
and my correct that you cannot attributespecific sexual violence to the specifically to
the Hamas. And am I correctthat you cannot conclude that the sexual violence
was of a systematic character. Iit's not that I cannot attribute. Is

(01:03:25):
that I did not go into attribution. Given the multiple actors. It was
Hamas, it was the Palestinian IslamicJiad, there were other armed groups.
There were civilians, armed and unarmed. I did not go into attribution.
Given the time and given the factthat I was not conducting an investigation.

(01:03:46):
That's that's what I want to see. The question the systematic character, Oh,
the systematic No. Like Chloe mentioned, the distinguishing factor from the exercise
that we out to do the gatheringand verification of information for the purpose of
its inclusion in the in the annualreport of the Secretary General versus and an

(01:04:09):
investigation. That's where you would doan analysis and you would come up with
finding. You would qualify the crimeswhether it is it constitute a crime against
humanity or war crime, and youwould go into elements of widespread or systematic.
Now there is we did not gointo that. We did not do
that kind of exercise. Ran,Thank you so much, Afrom, because

(01:04:31):
I fee with Arab News daily.I have two quick follow ups and then
a question, why can't you tellus who spoke in the names of the
victims? Is it the families theytold you you can't see them the centers
where they're being treated, or isit the Israeli authorities? Why can't you
tell us? So I'm not goingto answer your question because again I'll go

(01:04:54):
back to what's very clear in ourreport, which is the methodology of do
No Harm work. As the SRHGsaid, on a trauma informed and victim
centric approach. We do that notin Israel and Palestine, we do that
everywhere in the world. And asa result, basically we have to respect.
We do seek to meet with survivorsbecause as the srih you mentioned,

(01:05:18):
first hand account or obviously of aparticular weight. However, we're not going
to force or pressure anybody to comeforward. We're not going to add to
the stigmatization that may already have occurred, and so we do the work we
do both. In the case ofIsrael, we were presented and I'll go

(01:05:40):
back to the point about yocilando,we were presented with a number of you
know, person material, etc.From the national authorities. We reviewed those,
we assess their credibility and discarded thosethat we didn't find to be credible,
and we also gathered and went anddid our own independence and gathering of

(01:06:00):
information from other sources. And thosesources are privileged sources because they can sent
to speak to us on the basisthat they will not be trouble so organized
Identi authorities who told you you can'tmeet with the victims or somebody else,
you can tell us that you've hadenough freedom on your mission. Were you're

(01:06:23):
moving around freely? Did you interviewpeople separately or were you always accompanied by
Israeli authorities? Thank you for thequestion, because that was one of the
parameters that I set out in theletter of acceptance for a visit, was
freedom, freedom of movement, andfor myself and my technical team after I

(01:06:46):
leave. And I must say thatthe and and that's why I also issued
a press statement setting out those parametersbefore going on mission, a few days
before going on missions, so thatthe whole world knows what are the greed
parameters. And I must say thatthe government of Israel fully cooperated. And

(01:07:09):
although the permanent Representative of Israel wasin Israel at the time, he only
attended a meeting the first meeting,part of the first meeting that I had
with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs becausehe came in late, but I was
not chaperoned. Okay, my questionfinal parts. As the public, we

(01:07:34):
want to know what is going onin our world. We want all levels
of government, rather it be local, provincial, state, national, as
well as global representatives to just simplytell us the truth and be transparent about

(01:07:58):
the truth. That we should beable to provide a safe environment for report
violence from the victims, and thatthe government be able to clearly tell us

(01:08:19):
what is going on in our worldso that we have a better understanding.
And that if justice is going tobe served, then everybody should have to
follow the rules and not be ableto buy their way out of those rules

(01:08:42):
just because they're a billionaire. Thankyou for listening today. You're listening to
policy and rights and I've been toyour host, Michael Klauss. I not
subscribe button wherever it may be.The show has been produced by Depictions Media.

(01:09:32):
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