March 12, 2024 • 35 mins
David C. Smalley joins. Why is God using his full name at AA meetings? Extended show includes, "what happened to the atheist movement?" https://www.patreon.com/davidcsmalley
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(00:00):
I'm Neil de grat Tyson. Hey, I'm Adam Carola Gillette. Not only
listening, I'm the guest. I'ma pet and teller, and I am
a fourth listener and I am thefourth listener, and that must make me
at least the fourth listener. Tokeep our three listeners coming back, we
must be doing something right. Andif you're the fourth listener, we thank
(00:20):
you for the support. You canget every episode with no ads at patreon
dot com. Slash David C.Smalley and take advantage of your fourth listener
status. And we're gonna sue Davidsmalley for slender. With a world divided,
(00:41):
it's time to resurrect a nuance andremember the importance of conversation. He's
an actor, he's a comedian,and he'll make you think this is David
C. Smallly that, as weall know, is a lie in the
pits of hell. This is notDavid C. Small. I mean,
(01:03):
it kind of is a little bitwoh, but it's oh yeah, I
mean I mean that one isn't totallya lie. I mean I'm not in
the in the you know, theCaptain's chair, you're in the you're in
this in the boss chair. Butthat's right, I mean this is kind
of still David C. Smalling Well, it is and it isn't in that
debate host, It's Dogma Debate withyour host Michael Rigillio. Hi, welcome.
(01:26):
You know what I'm gonna ask thehost to could you we actually co
we mute the guests mic real quickwhile because I'm still InTru but introducing the
show at so you guys, uh, this is can we man? I
wasn't really ready for this. Iwould have hired security to escort the guest
(01:47):
out of the building if I knewhe was going to get quite this rowdy.
But we're gonna do new host theold host episode here and we're going
to catch up with everyone's old friend, David C. Smalley. David,
Welcome to the show. Thanks somuch. I don't know that I've ever
been a guest on Dogma Debate before, but I'm happy to be here.
(02:08):
I love what you've done with theplace. Oh thank you. I can't
assure you you will never be aguest again. Really. Yeah, You've
already ninety seconds in closed the dooron Wow, and I've I've heard some
of the people you've talked to.So that's shocking that I'm now banned.
Yeah, can you believe it?The crazy uh crazy Trump supporters were my
(02:29):
god, they were. They wereless unruly than you, sir, shouting
we as I'm trying. Yeah,we're here. You have Have you listened?
Is that true? Are you?Uh? Are you? Are you
just are you just being are youjust being an old flatterer? So you
know how people can listen at likeone point five and two speed? Yeah?
I upgraded my iPhone and I listenedat thirty seven Wow, and gets
(02:53):
high enough as it is, andI know it naisily at one point five.
I've never done it, but Ibet my voice would be no,
it doesn't change the pitch. Ibet my voice would be on no,
it doesn't change the pitch. Andit doesn't really Yeah, so it just
mean me I would just turn intoBen Shapiro again, yep, yep.
And And here's the thing. Doesit sound like Ben Shapiro at all?
(03:16):
A little? And and it's notsignificant. I mean if you touch the
entire role of the that's that's yeah. I think that's uh George Julia Child's
oh no, going through all theI was gonna do all my right wing
uh celebrities. But David, Yeah, you hosted the show for fourteen years.
(03:37):
Yeah, fourteen years and you cutand your last show with you as
host was six six six on purpose, on purpose that was you said,
Sign of the Devil, I'm outat six sixty six. Did you make
any declaration of this or anything ordid did anyone pick up on the fact
that, hey, this is sixsixty six and then David exited? You?
You already you always kind of lookedlike what Hollywood told the Devil would
(04:00):
look like, thank you? Yeah? Is there an end to your question
or it didn't? Do you justramble until someone interrupts you, like,
how is this going to go?Exactly? Okay, we're gonna mute the
mic again. We might you area little power drunk, just not just
no, man, I look they'reokay. So I'm not totally done done
right, Like, I don't wantpeople thinking that I'm just gone forever.
(04:24):
I don't know right now. AndI'll say this too, I've actually had
an idea for an episode that Iwant to come back and do, and
I will I will walk into mystudio soon. And there's been something on
my heart recently that I want toshare that has to do with atheism and
belief and addiction recovery. No,I'm not addicted or struggling with anything.
(04:46):
I've recently been spending some time witha friend of mine who goes to AA
meetings, and so I've been goingto support that person, and I've been
hearing a lot of God talk.It's a very spiritual program. It's very
much you're powerless over alcohol. Therefore, let God take over your life,
give your life over to God.They say God. Just out of here
(05:09):
they do they do, and thisI heard Higher Power was with these right.
So in the actual steps, itsays God capital g and then it
says something along that I don't wantto misquote and upset people who were in
AA, because the program can beeffective and I've seen it do good things.
But it says things along the linesthat I'm paraphrasing because I don't know
the steps because I'm not in recovery, But it says something along the lines
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of came, you know, cameto turn our lives over to God as
we understood him or as we understandhim. The age's capitalize. It's very
christian esque but they will never callthemselves a Christian organization. They call themselves
a spiritual organization. And so severalof the steps have to do with giving
(05:53):
things over to the higher power,living according to your higher powers. Will.
It never says higher power in thesteps. It says God. Every
time the book says higher power.I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that's
true. It might say higher powerin one of the steps, but I'm
pretty sure it's God. The actualsteps say God. And then there's also
twelve traditions as well as twelve Steps. And there's even a book in the
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it's what's called the Big Book.It's like the AA Bible, if you
will. There's a chapter called weAgnostics that directly addresses the non believer.
And I was in a meeting.Most of the meetings are private, or
a lot of the meetings are private, but they do also have what's called
open meetings. And if it's anopen meeting, there are psychologists, reporters,
(06:40):
doctors, supporters, family members ofpeople struggling with alcoholism that can come
and be supportive, like this isonly their third day sober, let me
be here for them or whatever,and so learning about it, keep in
mind too that my entire experience inthis started as like interestingly studying the like
I wanted to understand the believer.I wanted to know where they came from.
(07:02):
I was a psych major in college, and I was like, what
makes How is it that we bothread the same Bible and walk away feeling
completely differently about about its its contentsand interpretation? And so I started diving
into this and I read the chapterwe Agnostics and I was in a meeting.
(07:24):
I was in a meeting just scare. That's the chapter in the AA
Bible, as you called it calledit's called the Big Book r J.
There's a chapter called we Agnostics wherethey identify people who don't have a higher
power. They haven't they address likewhat to do, Like here's what you
do if you don't have a higherpower or if you're struggling to believe,
okay. And I was really hopefulwhen the meeting started that this was going
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to be like it's okay not tobelieve, just follow these steps and this
step or maybe my interpretation was likewhat if you know kind of like me,
like I know I should work out, but when I'm not motivated and
I don't give a damn. I'mstill dedicated and determined, so I kind
(08:07):
of check in with what I callmy CEO. It's a it's a it's
a portion of me that I've sectionedoff as the responsible one. And I
go, you know what, likewhen I used to tell people be kind
to future you, you know,just just know that there's a there's another
part of you that exists, andthat's kind of like your mission statement.
Right, here's how I'm gonna live. I know this is right. So
whenever I'm you know, ordering,you know, a basket of fries,
(08:30):
I go, maybe I should havea side salad. I'm checking in with
my inner CEO. Maybe I wasthinking, maybe there's a way of them
referring to that as God or higherpower, so that the atheists can do
a little mental gymnastics and be like, you know what, I don't really
believe in the traditional god, butmaybe there's a part of me I can
section off as my higher power.And the book does none of that.
It's basically bulldozing you into being likeyou'll you'll believe eventually because you're powerless.
(08:58):
And I I was just so offendedby the chapter. And there are some
there's so many interesting pieces in therethat I want to address, and so
what I'm gonna do. What Iwant to do is walk into the studio
with the book and read the entirechapter making commentary on it. It's a
very short chapter. I want toread it and do my commentary on it.
(09:18):
But I think what I'm gonna do, as I feel compelled to share
called to give my blessing on dogmDebate, I think I'll do it for
patrons only. I'll come in here, I'll do it. I'll release them
as what I used to call smallyshorts, and I will just pop these
episodes out for patrons only. Soif you're out there listening and you still
want to hear some episodes from meoccasionally, you know, you can sign
(09:41):
up at Dogma Debate dot com.It all. You could also go to
Patreon dot com slash David csmaly,but because you've been hosting so many episodes,
I think it's fair to just callit Dogma Debate dot com and then
you click extended shows I think,or extended episodes or something like that,
and that takes you to the Patreon. So yeah, I'm gonna do for
patrons. I might still occasionally popin and do stuff also, as you
(10:03):
have desires to be like David.This thing just happened with Donald Trump or
whatever. I'd love to have aco host. Do you want to join
me? If I've got the time, sure, I will sit down with
you and do the episode. Iappreciate that. I do want to push
back on the AA thing a littlebit because I'm curious. I've heard,
and I don't have any research atmy fingertips, that they do that because
(10:26):
addiction is about replacing one compulsion withanother. That religious organizations, scientology,
religion of all sects have these reallygreat recovery track records. They help addicts
because of the fact that you canfill the alcohol hole in your soul with
(10:46):
Jesus. Do you think that's true? Again, I don't have the facts
on this, but it does seemto be that you have to and I
know fitness is a big one.You fall out of drug addiction and you
become a sessed with working out inyou know, wheat, grass, et
cetera. Do you think there's somethingto the higher power in addiction recovery.
(11:07):
I've said for years on this verypodcast that belief can be very powerful,
even if what you believe is false. I think I told a story one
time about working out with a friendof mine who was much much stronger than
me, and we took a break. When we came back, I thought
the weights were set for me.So I did a rep and it was
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way harder than I expected it tobe, and I put it up and
I sit up and look at it, and it turns out it was what
he was lifting, which I hadpreviously thought was just out of reach for
me. And so because I believedit, I didn't question myself, and
I was able to do something andpush myself further than I thought I could
physically be put in Tempo's feather.Sure, so I don't call me names.
(11:54):
I got to the point of talkingwith people in AA and I really,
I really hope people to listen tothis and think that I've been absent
from the show because I've been strugglingwhen alcoholism or something. This is totally
a coincidence. I met someone whowas like, Hey, I've been struggling
to go to meetings. Do youwant to go with me? And I
(12:15):
was like, yeah, absolutely,and then I went and then I was
like, holy shit, this isfascinating, and it's just been cool to
kind of immerse myself in this cultureand learn about it. And also I
see people walk up and say,I used to not believe, but because
of AA now I'm saved, andI'm like, oh God, like this
is not There's got to be abetter way, you know. But there's
(12:41):
something to what you said. AndI mentioned this to my friend who goes
to the meetings. I said,I said, it's interesting how much we
talk about alcoholics being delusional in themeetings, and the delusion is I can
have just one. I can havejust two, sure, every day,
but I can only have a coupleor three won't hurt. Or I didn't
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drink for four days, so Ican binge right now. Whatever you keep
telling yourself over and over, youcan handle it. And then you wake
up with your you know, blackedout on your front lawn and you can't
find your car, and then yougo the next day you're like, but
I can have just one. Justalcoholics just constantly lie to themselves because they're
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delusional. And so what I toldmy friend was it seems that many alcoholics
trade one delusion for another, whereyou say, well, I don't really
believe in a god. But sure, I'll accept the doorknob as my higher
power, and the doorknob will stopme from drinking, right like, okay,
(13:50):
But all of their coins say tothine own self be true. Every
time they get a chip for twentyfour hours, thirty days, sixty days,
ninety days, they all say,to thy own self be true.
But they constantly encourage people to justjust believe in anything. It doesn't matter
what it is. Take a lightingfixture, take a light pole, take
a street lamp, whatever it is. Point at that. That's your higher
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power. If that thing lets youdrink, you can drink. Some of
them take marbles on their first day, and the leader of the meeting will
hand them a marble and they'll say, because it's been less than twenty four
hours since you had a drink,you're not allowed to speak at an AA
meeting, But take this marble.And the person holds out their hand.
(14:31):
They take the marble, and thenthey say, here's what you do.
If you feel like having a drink, go order one. Go order one,
and then put this marble in thedrink, and if it melts,
you can drink. Interesting, ofcourse, it's not gonna melt. It's
a marble, right. But theidea is if you haven't hit your bottom,
(14:54):
you're not ready to be here.And the idea of being at your
bottom is when you're vulnerable and willingto accept the higher power. And the
concept is you're powerless over alcohol.Therefore you've got to admit that and then
turn your life over to this higherpower. Now. I had a guy
on the show a long time ago, and I did the voiceover for an
audiobook called Powerless No Longer. He'san atheist who went through AA constantly,
(15:16):
felt shamed for not believing, leftAA and joined something called Smart Recovery,
which is a science based program ofreprogramming your addictive behavior. Addictive behavior through
like literally carving out new neural pathwaysin your brain, and he gives you
tools on how to do it.It's wonderful book. I, like I
said, did the voiceover for It'savailable on Amazon. Pete Soderman, I
(15:37):
believe, is the guy's name.He talks a lot of shit about AA
and his book. But now thatI've seen from the AA side, what
they mean by powerless is not thatyou're weak. It's that abstinence only is
the way to go, not forsex, but for alcohol. For sure.
If if three times out of tenthat you drink, you're blacking out,
(15:58):
getting DUI, hurting people in yourfamily, you are powerless over alcohol.
It's this idea that you're gonna trickyourself into drinking one or two drinks
and then you can totally control it. I've seen it. I've seen people
in my family go through it.I've seen people die from it. I
know people right now that are thatare lying to themselves about being able to
control their alcohol. And it's sad. And so there's a lot of good
(16:22):
that AA does there really really is. But the couching it in this you're
gonna believe one way or another isso off putting, especially when their success
rate is below ten percent. Soit's I mean, if you if you
had a ninety something, you knowpercent success rate, yeah, I'd say
(16:44):
whatever you're doing is working. It'squite the opposite. And then then they
go, well it works if youwork it, yeah, because it says
don't drink, Yeah, of course. I mean if my plan was if
I came out with the Lego alcoholprogram and every time you thought about drinking,
you played with legos and didn't drink. That's a one page It doesn't
even have to be a book ora program. And I'd say, what,
(17:07):
it works if you work it,Yeah, because not working it means
not drinking. That's that's part ofthe system. So they blame the people
for not doing it, and thenwhen you know, when they do well,
it's like, well, my higherpower helped me with this, right,
And if you drank, then youweren't doing the program. Then you
failed. Then you failed, andyou don't count as somebody. You didn't
do the steps right. You didn'treally do the steps right, so you're
(17:27):
kind of ignored. When in fact, my argument to that is part of
the program is supposed to be tokeep you engage with the program, and
so if you're not engaging, theprogram has some culpability into that. Yeah,
and they should do a better jobof reaching out to atheists and agnostics.
And so I don't want to havethe episode now, and we're gonna
we can get into other stuff.But that's something that has been that I've
been passionate about. Here later Ilook forward to it in helping one of
(17:49):
my friends with recovery. I've beenI haven't been through it. But I
had an ex girlfriend who was clearlyan alcoholic, and I broke up with
her over it. I said,it's the booze or me wow, And
she chose the booze and anyone wouldhave. And I ran into her like
(18:10):
a year later, and it wasso funny where she was like, she
went through AA and one of thesteps is to call up everybody that you've
wronged and apologized. Are you awareof this, Yes, it's called making
amends. Yep. It's not justcalling. A lot of times they write
letters, yeah, yeah. Andshe was telling me about all the steps
she had gone through and all theprogress she had made against her alcoholism.
(18:33):
And she got to that step andshe was like, and it was really
difficult. I'd call everybody I hadwronged and make amends, to which I
was like, yeah, my phonedidn't ring. She was like, I
just I just I can't. Ican't. I was like, then,
you haven't done the work. Shewas like, she she was so still
(18:55):
angry at me for being the guythat said you're an alcoholic. UNI help
in her calling me every name inthe book that she was unable to ever
bring herself to uh to actually takethat step on me. So anyway,
I don't know what the relevance ofthat is other than I guess I am
(19:17):
the exception to the rule in AAyou can go sober and not apologize.
To Michael Riggilio. She's also theperson that once got out of a moving
car while drunk, and when Iasked her why, she told me she
was going for a walk. Shejust wanted to get a head start on
(19:37):
the walk. Yeah, she said, I said, you jumped out of
a movie car. She was like, what, Michael, I was going
for a walk. People go forwalks all the time. Well, let's
understand how let's start them from amoving car. Let's understand too that that
people can have can be struggling withalcoholism and also have borderline personality disorder bipolar
(20:00):
fresh and ADHD schizophrenia. They couldstruggle with other you know, personality disorders
as well, So sometimes the twoare running parallel and they might not even
be all that related. So,you know, someone's got a drink in
their hand or recently had a drink, sometimes their behavior is also just you
know, personality related, you knowwhat I mean. Yeah, I can't
(20:23):
blame the booze for everything right,there might be more going on and you
might be self medicating. Yeah,and that's why you're drinking, for sure.
So it sounds like a good episode. So things like that I might
still pop in into for sure.We're looking forward to But what have you
been doing? I'm sure everyone wantsto know where did David see Smalley Go?
(20:44):
So TikTok has been keeping me busy. I recently filmed a movie in
Colorado that's supposed to be out Ihope in Halloween by Halloween this year,
doing lots of odd editions, doinglots of stand up comedy touring for the
first I've done four tours now,and this, as you know, as
(21:06):
a comedian usually you either lose money. You usually just lose money. You
end up paying to be on tour, and my first three tours were like
that. And for the first timeever, I had a profitable comedy tour
this past October and it was lifechanging. I mean I was literally selling
(21:27):
out full sized comedy clubs and peoplewere coming to see me for stand up
and had no idea that I hadan atheist podcast. It's also very confusing
for my brand. People would meetme Hollywood Talk folks. Oh you would
you like to explain what I meanby confusing for my brand? Well,
(21:48):
no, you translate for the commonfolks, since apparently I'm up here with
my nosebleed in the mountains of Hollywood. I actually do. Is your your
POV? But it is that peoplethink when they think of David C.
Smalley. Well, so, firstof all, I'm just tired. Most
(22:11):
of my episodes have been over threehours long. I started this show in
twenty ten, and I personally recordedsix hundred and sixty six episodes. Scratch
that I released six hundred and sixtysix episodes recorded, probably three or four
(22:33):
that never made it to air forone reason or another. Either I realized
part of the way through or anhour in that the person had a severe
mental disability that I that I justcouldn't. I would have just felt like
I was a the hell is that? Oh, it's some pipes in the
wall, pipes in the wall,Like I just I would have just felt
(22:55):
like that I was exploiting someone byby releasing it. And so I'm winning
this debate and I feel like I'mdoing great, and then I get,
you know, seventeen minutes in andgo oh no, this is not this
is not a fair discussion at all, And so I just I humor the
person and finish talking for an hourand then just never release it anyway.
(23:17):
There's been other times where I doan entire episode and then the person gets
to the end and goes, man, you kicked my ass. I feel
so stupid. Please don't release that. I'm gonna look like an idiot,
and I go but that, butpeople can learn from it, please man,
please, man, please please.I've had people, you know,
threaten to sue and I'm just like, it's not worth it, like whatever,
even if they sign releases it.Just you know, at the end
(23:37):
of the day, I feel likeI'm a humanist more than I'm an atheist.
And if the person feels that awfulabout their performance, I don't want
to I don't want my platform tobe an embarrassment to anybody. I don't
want my platform to be seen asbullying anyone. So I would just be
like, fine, I'm not gonnarelease it. So yeah, really,
six hundred and sixty six episodes,and I was about to record another one.
(24:00):
And when I say confusing for mybrand, I mean that people would
follow me on TikTok. Meet meout in public at a comedy show,
ask for a picture, ask meto sign something. I would sign it,
and then someone else will be standingthere and be like, oh,
are you a fourth listener? Andthe person would go what is that?
(24:22):
What are you talking about? Andthey're like, oh, he's this great
atheist podcast. The person be like, you're an atheist? What do you
mean? And I'm like, okay, just stop for a second, like,
no, I'm not ashamed of beingan atheist. The problem is when
I say confusing for the brand.People find out I have a podcast,
and they see me as a comedian. They assume the podcast is a comedy
podcast. So they come and listento this and I'm having a three hour
(24:44):
argument with somebody about biblical slavery,and they're like what is your deal?
Like are you a comedian? Areyou not? Are you what are you
doing? And so for a longtime I really struggled. I would have
meetings with my publicists, my agents, my managers, my confidants. I
would sit down with my team andgo, I don't it's really hard to
marry these two. It's really hardto marry the comedy with these serious discussions,
(25:06):
because you know, when you sitdown or do comedy, there's gonna
be someone being the butt of ajoke. And if I'm this comedian who
is roasting religion or making fun ofreligion, no more Christians are gonna join
me on the show. I'm justgonna look like any old atheist podcast that
just wants to beat up on people. And so if i'm if I approach
(25:30):
it seriously and try to have areal discussion that I think is gonna help
change lives, which is what Idid, people were like, this dude's
not funny at all, and thenI fall out of graces with the comedy
fans. So I feel like Ihad a good run. I feel like
it was really productive. It wasreally helpful for a lot of people.
But other parts of my career wouldrather it be acting, television, movies,
(25:52):
stand up comedy, social media influencingthese things. And you know,
I'm a business owner as well,managing and producing as well. I've written
a couple of things that you arefamiliar with that I can't talk about right
now, and I've got an announcementcoming up that you know about that I
can't share with anybody right now.A whole other aspect of my life that
(26:15):
most people probably don't even know thatI'm a part of. I'm just ready
for a new chapter of my life. And it doesn't mean I want to
be fully away from Dogma Debate.So I'm still here as executive producer.
Dogma Debate is still an intellectual propertyof mine that's owned by my parent company,
and so it's always been a balanceof like, how how can I
(26:40):
be serious and provide a solid frameworkfor making people challenge their beliefs while also
providing comedy and entertainment that I thatI want to provide. And that's why
my parent company is called Serious CircusIncorporated. It's that's that's my that's my
dichotomy. And so I talk aboutGod and religion in my stand up on
(27:04):
some level, but I don't wantto be known as the atheist comedian.
And so here I am building afollowing as a comedian selling out comedy clubs.
Not all of them were seld soldout, trust me. There were
some shows where I barely had peopleshow up, but there were still a
few shows that I literally packed theplace and there was a line out front
of people waiting for standby tickets andnever got in, and I'd still go
(27:26):
out and meet them and talk tothem, and it was it really just
let me know, I can shiftinto another part of entertainment and I'll be
okay. And so this show takesa lot out of you, like it
just does, and I'm I'm witnessing, I'm preparing you. But dude,
(27:48):
there were times where I would finisha three hour episode and just just go
collapse. I mean, I wouldjust I would just want I would want
to eat like shit, watch somethingstupid, veg out, and just not
think. Because listening listening to ashow while you're driving is nothing like being
(28:11):
engaged, I to I with someonewho's literally trying to convince you that owning
another human being is okay as longas God says so, Like it is
mentally and physically exhausting, and doingit for three or more hours, week
after week after week, fifty twoepisodes a year for fourteen years, and
(28:36):
on top of that, the planning, emailing back and forth, getting their
schedule, dealing with last minute cancelations, and then editing after having to do
the mastering, all the audio engineering, and then logging into the distribution platforms
and uploading and then having a differentversion for the public versus a different version
(28:56):
for patrons, and then being expectedto engage with patrons not only in the
comments, but in direct messages,and then getting emails from the contact from
on the website of people just wantingto talk, sending literally eight ten thousand
word emails telling me their life story, challenging some of my viewpoints, saying
they kind of agree, but they'repushing back. I'm like, I would
(29:19):
read, you know, one paragraphand reply and say, if you want
to be a guest on the show, I'm happy to talk to you about
it. But I just can't sithere and read your biography. I'm sorry,
you're your autobiography and so then ohyou're such an asshole. Oh you're
a dick. Oh I bet ifI had a movie role, you'd reply.
And it's just like it's it becameso much to manage that I just
(29:41):
started leaning into other aspects of myskill set, and dogma debate means the
world to me. But of allthe things that I do and have done,
rather it be movie, stand upcomedy, TikTok, all the other
things that I have going on thatI can't mention dogm debate is the smallest
(30:04):
contributor to my life financially, andso no, I'm not leaving because of
money. It's that these other thingsbring me pure joy and happiness. And
I feel at peace when I'm onstage doing stand up, when I am
sitting across from someone who's telling mea woman's place is barefoot in the kitchen
having babies, because god, Idon't have a good feeling in myself.
(30:30):
And I did it first. Ifelt like I was fighting the good foot.
I feel I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did
it first. I did for along time, and this last maybe one
to three years, I've really juststarted getting burnout on it. So I'm
not saying I'm gone. I'm sayingthat I'm gonna take a back seat right
now. Let you drive. Isaw you doing it on TikTok, on
(30:52):
your own. I saw the passion. I saw you arguing with drump supporters,
and so when we had our discussion, I was like this, you
know, there's not another person Icould say that I would trust to take
the show over and do it,and you're not just doing whatever you want.
You know, I'm still executive producerand I'm helping guide you. But
I think you're doing a great job, and there's gonna be a learning curve
(31:14):
you're gonna have. You know,people are gonna have their opinions about the
show. But I'm glad that it'sliving on. I'm glad that it's still
a platform I can pop in andjoin every now and then. And I'm
glad you're at the helm driving theship Man. I love being at the
helm Man, and I hope,I hope people are enjoying the content.
I have whatever passion it was thatyou had in the early days, I
am experiencing. This is exciting tome. And the interaction with the patrons
(31:37):
is super fun and I appreciate them. And I'm looking forward to Dogma Debating
for fourteen years myself. That'd begreat. Yeah, it'd be great.
I go. Yeah. I hadpeople offer to buy the brand. They
wanted to buy Dogma Debate. Atone point, Dogma Debate LLC was a
thing. The brand is, Ibelieve, trademarked and read and people were
(32:00):
offering to buy it, and Ijust I never wanted to let it go.
So people are like, oh,yeah, ended an episode in two
weeks, you new sell it I'mlike no, I think you know,
I've been offering quite a bit ofmoney for it, like a lot of
money, and I just was like, no, this it means too much
to me. The brand is socool, the logo is beautiful. I
love the color scheme. I justyou know, it took me a long
(32:21):
time to come up with it.I'm very happy with it, and I
don't want to let it go.It's been the fourth listeners mean too much
to me to just sell the brandand leave. I want to make sure
it's taken care of. And so, you know, being a part of,
you know, helping you take overthe show has been really fun for
me. It's kind of reignited mypassion for the production side of it.
(32:42):
You know. Nice, Well,here's too many great episodes to come absolutely
clink them cups cheers. Okay,so, but you have lived through the
Atheist heyday, David what I startedlistening to Dogma Debate fourteen years ago when
you started out and you were inTexas and I was in Los Angeles.
(33:06):
In case anybody doesn't know, Imet David Smalley when I was booked on
a comedy show with him, andwhen I first got notification. I saw
the lineup. I thought, oh, that's funny, David Smalley. That's
the name of an atheist. Dude. I'll have to tell this comedian like,
there's another dude out there using thename. And then they sent me
(33:27):
the poster for the show and Ilooked at it. I went, no,
that's that is David Small. Andthen I thought, wait a second,
have I been booked on the wrongshow? Is this like a speaking
engagement? Is this like, oh, prime example of brand confusion, that's
an exact example. I was completelyconfused. I was like, wait,
because I did tell the booker atthat particular club. I was like telling
(33:50):
them that I, you know,I was an atheist and everything. I
was like, did they book meon like a speaking engagement? Is this
just gonna be? I don't haveanything ready to go for that? And
then I that I realized, wait, David C. Smalley, the atheist
is a comedian. And I metyou that night, and for whatever reason,
we became fast friends. And butyeah, so you have lived through
(34:12):
what I considered to be an atheist. Heyday Hitchens, Harris Dawkins. It
really felt like something was happening.We were about to bust this thing wide
open and make the world skeptical.I don't believe that anymore. And I
want to go into the Patreon sectionwith that question. I want your answer,
(34:34):
what happened to the atheist movement?Do you have an answer to that
question? I know exactly what happenedto the atheist Okay, so if you
want to hear his answer, we'regoing to Dogma debate dot com. Now
right, Dogma Debate dot com.Click on the Patreon link. Follow us
on Patreon's shows, right, yeah, extended shows. Follow us on Patreon.
Uh, and you're gonna get alot of extra content. You're gonna
(34:57):
get a lot of great stuff ifyou you come over to Patreon. And
if you're not coming over to Patreon, because I do not say this man's
catchphrase, I refuse, so forat least a little while, this is
the last time you'll hear it.If you're not coming with us, please
at least drive like you know eachother. There you go.
I'm Neil de grat Tyson. Hey, I'm Adam Carola Gillette. Not only
listening, I'm the guest. I'ma pet and teller, and I am
a fourth listener and I am thefourth listener, and that must make me
at least the fourth listener. Tokeep our three listeners coming back, we
must be doing something right. Andif you're the fourth listener, we thank
(00:20):
you for the support. You canget every episode with no ads at patreon
dot com. Slash David C.Smalley and take advantage of your fourth listener
status. And we're gonna sue Davidsmalley for slender. With a world divided,
(00:41):
it's time to resurrect a nuance andremember the importance of conversation. He's
an actor, he's a comedian,and he'll make you think this is David
C. Smallly that, as weall know, is a lie in the
pits of hell. This is notDavid C. Small. I mean,
(01:03):
it kind of is a little bitwoh, but it's oh yeah, I
mean I mean that one isn't totallya lie. I mean I'm not in
the in the you know, theCaptain's chair, you're in the you're in
this in the boss chair. Butthat's right, I mean this is kind
of still David C. Smalling Well, it is and it isn't in that
debate host, It's Dogma Debate withyour host Michael Rigillio. Hi, welcome.
(01:26):
You know what I'm gonna ask thehost to could you we actually co
we mute the guests mic real quickwhile because I'm still InTru but introducing the
show at so you guys, uh, this is can we man? I
wasn't really ready for this. Iwould have hired security to escort the guest
(01:47):
out of the building if I knewhe was going to get quite this rowdy.
But we're gonna do new host theold host episode here and we're going
to catch up with everyone's old friend, David C. Smalley. David,
Welcome to the show. Thanks somuch. I don't know that I've ever
been a guest on Dogma Debate before, but I'm happy to be here.
(02:08):
I love what you've done with theplace. Oh thank you. I can't
assure you you will never be aguest again. Really. Yeah, You've
already ninety seconds in closed the dooron Wow, and I've I've heard some
of the people you've talked to.So that's shocking that I'm now banned.
Yeah, can you believe it?The crazy uh crazy Trump supporters were my
(02:29):
god, they were. They wereless unruly than you, sir, shouting
we as I'm trying. Yeah,we're here. You have Have you listened?
Is that true? Are you?Uh? Are you? Are you
just are you just being are youjust being an old flatterer? So you
know how people can listen at likeone point five and two speed? Yeah?
I upgraded my iPhone and I listenedat thirty seven Wow, and gets
(02:53):
high enough as it is, andI know it naisily at one point five.
I've never done it, but Ibet my voice would be no,
it doesn't change the pitch. Ibet my voice would be on no,
it doesn't change the pitch. Andit doesn't really Yeah, so it just
mean me I would just turn intoBen Shapiro again, yep, yep.
And And here's the thing. Doesit sound like Ben Shapiro at all?
(03:16):
A little? And and it's notsignificant. I mean if you touch the
entire role of the that's that's yeah. I think that's uh George Julia Child's
oh no, going through all theI was gonna do all my right wing
uh celebrities. But David, Yeah, you hosted the show for fourteen years.
(03:37):
Yeah, fourteen years and you cutand your last show with you as
host was six six six on purpose, on purpose that was you said,
Sign of the Devil, I'm outat six sixty six. Did you make
any declaration of this or anything ordid did anyone pick up on the fact
that, hey, this is sixsixty six and then David exited? You?
You already you always kind of lookedlike what Hollywood told the Devil would
(04:00):
look like, thank you? Yeah? Is there an end to your question
or it didn't? Do you justramble until someone interrupts you, like,
how is this going to go?Exactly? Okay, we're gonna mute the
mic again. We might you area little power drunk, just not just
no, man, I look they'reokay. So I'm not totally done done
right, Like, I don't wantpeople thinking that I'm just gone forever.
(04:24):
I don't know right now. AndI'll say this too, I've actually had
an idea for an episode that Iwant to come back and do, and
I will I will walk into mystudio soon. And there's been something on
my heart recently that I want toshare that has to do with atheism and
belief and addiction recovery. No,I'm not addicted or struggling with anything.
(04:46):
I've recently been spending some time witha friend of mine who goes to AA
meetings, and so I've been goingto support that person, and I've been
hearing a lot of God talk.It's a very spiritual program. It's very
much you're powerless over alcohol. Therefore, let God take over your life,
give your life over to God.They say God. Just out of here
(05:09):
they do they do, and thisI heard Higher Power was with these right.
So in the actual steps, itsays God capital g and then it
says something along that I don't wantto misquote and upset people who were in
AA, because the program can beeffective and I've seen it do good things.
But it says things along the linesthat I'm paraphrasing because I don't know
the steps because I'm not in recovery, But it says something along the lines
(05:32):
of came, you know, cameto turn our lives over to God as
we understood him or as we understandhim. The age's capitalize. It's very
christian esque but they will never callthemselves a Christian organization. They call themselves
a spiritual organization. And so severalof the steps have to do with giving
(05:53):
things over to the higher power,living according to your higher powers. Will.
It never says higher power in thesteps. It says God. Every
time the book says higher power.I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that's
true. It might say higher powerin one of the steps, but I'm
pretty sure it's God. The actualsteps say God. And then there's also
twelve traditions as well as twelve Steps. And there's even a book in the
(06:16):
it's what's called the Big Book.It's like the AA Bible, if you
will. There's a chapter called weAgnostics that directly addresses the non believer.
And I was in a meeting.Most of the meetings are private, or
a lot of the meetings are private, but they do also have what's called
open meetings. And if it's anopen meeting, there are psychologists, reporters,
(06:40):
doctors, supporters, family members ofpeople struggling with alcoholism that can come
and be supportive, like this isonly their third day sober, let me
be here for them or whatever,and so learning about it, keep in
mind too that my entire experience inthis started as like interestingly studying the like
I wanted to understand the believer.I wanted to know where they came from.
(07:02):
I was a psych major in college, and I was like, what
makes How is it that we bothread the same Bible and walk away feeling
completely differently about about its its contentsand interpretation? And so I started diving
into this and I read the chapterwe Agnostics and I was in a meeting.
(07:24):
I was in a meeting just scare. That's the chapter in the AA
Bible, as you called it calledit's called the Big Book r J.
There's a chapter called we Agnostics wherethey identify people who don't have a higher
power. They haven't they address likewhat to do, Like here's what you
do if you don't have a higherpower or if you're struggling to believe,
okay. And I was really hopefulwhen the meeting started that this was going
(07:45):
to be like it's okay not tobelieve, just follow these steps and this
step or maybe my interpretation was likewhat if you know kind of like me,
like I know I should work out, but when I'm not motivated and
I don't give a damn. I'mstill dedicated and determined, so I kind
(08:07):
of check in with what I callmy CEO. It's a it's a it's
a portion of me that I've sectionedoff as the responsible one. And I
go, you know what, likewhen I used to tell people be kind
to future you, you know,just just know that there's a there's another
part of you that exists, andthat's kind of like your mission statement.
Right, here's how I'm gonna live. I know this is right. So
whenever I'm you know, ordering,you know, a basket of fries,
(08:30):
I go, maybe I should havea side salad. I'm checking in with
my inner CEO. Maybe I wasthinking, maybe there's a way of them
referring to that as God or higherpower, so that the atheists can do
a little mental gymnastics and be like, you know what, I don't really
believe in the traditional god, butmaybe there's a part of me I can
section off as my higher power.And the book does none of that.
It's basically bulldozing you into being likeyou'll you'll believe eventually because you're powerless.
(08:58):
And I I was just so offendedby the chapter. And there are some
there's so many interesting pieces in therethat I want to address, and so
what I'm gonna do. What Iwant to do is walk into the studio
with the book and read the entirechapter making commentary on it. It's a
very short chapter. I want toread it and do my commentary on it.
(09:18):
But I think what I'm gonna do, as I feel compelled to share
called to give my blessing on dogmDebate, I think I'll do it for
patrons only. I'll come in here, I'll do it. I'll release them
as what I used to call smallyshorts, and I will just pop these
episodes out for patrons only. Soif you're out there listening and you still
want to hear some episodes from meoccasionally, you know, you can sign
(09:41):
up at Dogma Debate dot com.It all. You could also go to
Patreon dot com slash David csmaly,but because you've been hosting so many episodes,
I think it's fair to just callit Dogma Debate dot com and then
you click extended shows I think,or extended episodes or something like that,
and that takes you to the Patreon. So yeah, I'm gonna do for
patrons. I might still occasionally popin and do stuff also, as you
(10:03):
have desires to be like David.This thing just happened with Donald Trump or
whatever. I'd love to have aco host. Do you want to join
me? If I've got the time, sure, I will sit down with
you and do the episode. Iappreciate that. I do want to push
back on the AA thing a littlebit because I'm curious. I've heard,
and I don't have any research atmy fingertips, that they do that because
(10:26):
addiction is about replacing one compulsion withanother. That religious organizations, scientology,
religion of all sects have these reallygreat recovery track records. They help addicts
because of the fact that you canfill the alcohol hole in your soul with
(10:46):
Jesus. Do you think that's true? Again, I don't have the facts
on this, but it does seemto be that you have to and I
know fitness is a big one.You fall out of drug addiction and you
become a sessed with working out inyou know, wheat, grass, et
cetera. Do you think there's somethingto the higher power in addiction recovery.
(11:07):
I've said for years on this verypodcast that belief can be very powerful,
even if what you believe is false. I think I told a story one
time about working out with a friendof mine who was much much stronger than
me, and we took a break. When we came back, I thought
the weights were set for me.So I did a rep and it was
(11:31):
way harder than I expected it tobe, and I put it up and
I sit up and look at it, and it turns out it was what
he was lifting, which I hadpreviously thought was just out of reach for
me. And so because I believedit, I didn't question myself, and
I was able to do something andpush myself further than I thought I could
physically be put in Tempo's feather.Sure, so I don't call me names.
(11:54):
I got to the point of talkingwith people in AA and I really,
I really hope people to listen tothis and think that I've been absent
from the show because I've been strugglingwhen alcoholism or something. This is totally
a coincidence. I met someone whowas like, Hey, I've been struggling
to go to meetings. Do youwant to go with me? And I
(12:15):
was like, yeah, absolutely,and then I went and then I was
like, holy shit, this isfascinating, and it's just been cool to
kind of immerse myself in this cultureand learn about it. And also I
see people walk up and say,I used to not believe, but because
of AA now I'm saved, andI'm like, oh God, like this
is not There's got to be abetter way, you know. But there's
(12:41):
something to what you said. AndI mentioned this to my friend who goes
to the meetings. I said,I said, it's interesting how much we
talk about alcoholics being delusional in themeetings, and the delusion is I can
have just one. I can havejust two, sure, every day,
but I can only have a coupleor three won't hurt. Or I didn't
(13:07):
drink for four days, so Ican binge right now. Whatever you keep
telling yourself over and over, youcan handle it. And then you wake
up with your you know, blackedout on your front lawn and you can't
find your car, and then yougo the next day you're like, but
I can have just one. Justalcoholics just constantly lie to themselves because they're
(13:28):
delusional. And so what I toldmy friend was it seems that many alcoholics
trade one delusion for another, whereyou say, well, I don't really
believe in a god. But sure, I'll accept the doorknob as my higher
power, and the doorknob will stopme from drinking, right like, okay,
(13:50):
But all of their coins say tothine own self be true. Every
time they get a chip for twentyfour hours, thirty days, sixty days,
ninety days, they all say,to thy own self be true.
But they constantly encourage people to justjust believe in anything. It doesn't matter
what it is. Take a lightingfixture, take a light pole, take
a street lamp, whatever it is. Point at that. That's your higher
(14:11):
power. If that thing lets youdrink, you can drink. Some of
them take marbles on their first day, and the leader of the meeting will
hand them a marble and they'll say, because it's been less than twenty four
hours since you had a drink,you're not allowed to speak at an AA
meeting, But take this marble.And the person holds out their hand.
(14:31):
They take the marble, and thenthey say, here's what you do.
If you feel like having a drink, go order one. Go order one,
and then put this marble in thedrink, and if it melts,
you can drink. Interesting, ofcourse, it's not gonna melt. It's
a marble, right. But theidea is if you haven't hit your bottom,
(14:54):
you're not ready to be here.And the idea of being at your
bottom is when you're vulnerable and willingto accept the higher power. And the
concept is you're powerless over alcohol.Therefore you've got to admit that and then
turn your life over to this higherpower. Now. I had a guy
on the show a long time ago, and I did the voiceover for an
audiobook called Powerless No Longer. He'san atheist who went through AA constantly,
(15:16):
felt shamed for not believing, leftAA and joined something called Smart Recovery,
which is a science based program ofreprogramming your addictive behavior. Addictive behavior through
like literally carving out new neural pathwaysin your brain, and he gives you
tools on how to do it.It's wonderful book. I, like I
said, did the voiceover for It'savailable on Amazon. Pete Soderman, I
(15:37):
believe, is the guy's name.He talks a lot of shit about AA
and his book. But now thatI've seen from the AA side, what
they mean by powerless is not thatyou're weak. It's that abstinence only is
the way to go, not forsex, but for alcohol. For sure.
If if three times out of tenthat you drink, you're blacking out,
(15:58):
getting DUI, hurting people in yourfamily, you are powerless over alcohol.
It's this idea that you're gonna trickyourself into drinking one or two drinks
and then you can totally control it. I've seen it. I've seen people
in my family go through it.I've seen people die from it. I
know people right now that are thatare lying to themselves about being able to
control their alcohol. And it's sad. And so there's a lot of good
(16:22):
that AA does there really really is. But the couching it in this you're
gonna believe one way or another isso off putting, especially when their success
rate is below ten percent. Soit's I mean, if you if you
had a ninety something, you knowpercent success rate, yeah, I'd say
(16:44):
whatever you're doing is working. It'squite the opposite. And then then they
go, well it works if youwork it, yeah, because it says
don't drink, Yeah, of course. I mean if my plan was if
I came out with the Lego alcoholprogram and every time you thought about drinking,
you played with legos and didn't drink. That's a one page It doesn't
even have to be a book ora program. And I'd say, what,
(17:07):
it works if you work it,Yeah, because not working it means
not drinking. That's that's part ofthe system. So they blame the people
for not doing it, and thenwhen you know, when they do well,
it's like, well, my higherpower helped me with this, right,
And if you drank, then youweren't doing the program. Then you
failed. Then you failed, andyou don't count as somebody. You didn't
do the steps right. You didn'treally do the steps right, so you're
(17:27):
kind of ignored. When in fact, my argument to that is part of
the program is supposed to be tokeep you engage with the program, and
so if you're not engaging, theprogram has some culpability into that. Yeah,
and they should do a better jobof reaching out to atheists and agnostics.
And so I don't want to havethe episode now, and we're gonna
we can get into other stuff.But that's something that has been that I've
been passionate about. Here later Ilook forward to it in helping one of
(17:49):
my friends with recovery. I've beenI haven't been through it. But I
had an ex girlfriend who was clearlyan alcoholic, and I broke up with
her over it. I said,it's the booze or me wow, And
she chose the booze and anyone wouldhave. And I ran into her like
(18:10):
a year later, and it wasso funny where she was like, she
went through AA and one of thesteps is to call up everybody that you've
wronged and apologized. Are you awareof this, Yes, it's called making
amends. Yep. It's not justcalling. A lot of times they write
letters, yeah, yeah. Andshe was telling me about all the steps
she had gone through and all theprogress she had made against her alcoholism.
(18:33):
And she got to that step andshe was like, and it was really
difficult. I'd call everybody I hadwronged and make amends, to which I
was like, yeah, my phonedidn't ring. She was like, I
just I just I can't. Ican't. I was like, then,
you haven't done the work. Shewas like, she she was so still
(18:55):
angry at me for being the guythat said you're an alcoholic. UNI help
in her calling me every name inthe book that she was unable to ever
bring herself to uh to actually takethat step on me. So anyway,
I don't know what the relevance ofthat is other than I guess I am
(19:17):
the exception to the rule in AAyou can go sober and not apologize.
To Michael Riggilio. She's also theperson that once got out of a moving
car while drunk, and when Iasked her why, she told me she
was going for a walk. Shejust wanted to get a head start on
(19:37):
the walk. Yeah, she said, I said, you jumped out of
a movie car. She was like, what, Michael, I was going
for a walk. People go forwalks all the time. Well, let's
understand how let's start them from amoving car. Let's understand too that that
people can have can be struggling withalcoholism and also have borderline personality disorder bipolar
(20:00):
fresh and ADHD schizophrenia. They couldstruggle with other you know, personality disorders
as well, So sometimes the twoare running parallel and they might not even
be all that related. So,you know, someone's got a drink in
their hand or recently had a drink, sometimes their behavior is also just you
know, personality related, you knowwhat I mean. Yeah, I can't
(20:23):
blame the booze for everything right,there might be more going on and you
might be self medicating. Yeah,and that's why you're drinking, for sure.
So it sounds like a good episode. So things like that I might
still pop in into for sure.We're looking forward to But what have you
been doing? I'm sure everyone wantsto know where did David see Smalley Go?
(20:44):
So TikTok has been keeping me busy. I recently filmed a movie in
Colorado that's supposed to be out Ihope in Halloween by Halloween this year,
doing lots of odd editions, doinglots of stand up comedy touring for the
first I've done four tours now,and this, as you know, as
(21:06):
a comedian usually you either lose money. You usually just lose money. You
end up paying to be on tour, and my first three tours were like
that. And for the first timeever, I had a profitable comedy tour
this past October and it was lifechanging. I mean I was literally selling
(21:27):
out full sized comedy clubs and peoplewere coming to see me for stand up
and had no idea that I hadan atheist podcast. It's also very confusing
for my brand. People would meetme Hollywood Talk folks. Oh you would
you like to explain what I meanby confusing for my brand? Well,
(21:48):
no, you translate for the commonfolks, since apparently I'm up here with
my nosebleed in the mountains of Hollywood. I actually do. Is your your
POV? But it is that peoplethink when they think of David C.
Smalley. Well, so, firstof all, I'm just tired. Most
(22:11):
of my episodes have been over threehours long. I started this show in
twenty ten, and I personally recordedsix hundred and sixty six episodes. Scratch
that I released six hundred and sixtysix episodes recorded, probably three or four
(22:33):
that never made it to air forone reason or another. Either I realized
part of the way through or anhour in that the person had a severe
mental disability that I that I justcouldn't. I would have just felt like
I was a the hell is that? Oh, it's some pipes in the
wall, pipes in the wall,Like I just I would have just felt
(22:55):
like that I was exploiting someone byby releasing it. And so I'm winning
this debate and I feel like I'mdoing great, and then I get,
you know, seventeen minutes in andgo oh no, this is not this
is not a fair discussion at all, And so I just I humor the
person and finish talking for an hourand then just never release it anyway.
(23:17):
There's been other times where I doan entire episode and then the person gets
to the end and goes, man, you kicked my ass. I feel
so stupid. Please don't release that. I'm gonna look like an idiot,
and I go but that, butpeople can learn from it, please man,
please, man, please please.I've had people, you know,
threaten to sue and I'm just like, it's not worth it, like whatever,
even if they sign releases it.Just you know, at the end
(23:37):
of the day, I feel likeI'm a humanist more than I'm an atheist.
And if the person feels that awfulabout their performance, I don't want
to I don't want my platform tobe an embarrassment to anybody. I don't
want my platform to be seen asbullying anyone. So I would just be
like, fine, I'm not gonnarelease it. So yeah, really,
six hundred and sixty six episodes,and I was about to record another one.
(24:00):
And when I say confusing for mybrand, I mean that people would
follow me on TikTok. Meet meout in public at a comedy show,
ask for a picture, ask meto sign something. I would sign it,
and then someone else will be standingthere and be like, oh,
are you a fourth listener? Andthe person would go what is that?
(24:22):
What are you talking about? Andthey're like, oh, he's this great
atheist podcast. The person be like, you're an atheist? What do you
mean? And I'm like, okay, just stop for a second, like,
no, I'm not ashamed of beingan atheist. The problem is when
I say confusing for the brand.People find out I have a podcast,
and they see me as a comedian. They assume the podcast is a comedy
podcast. So they come and listento this and I'm having a three hour
(24:44):
argument with somebody about biblical slavery,and they're like what is your deal?
Like are you a comedian? Areyou not? Are you what are you
doing? And so for a longtime I really struggled. I would have
meetings with my publicists, my agents, my managers, my confidants. I
would sit down with my team andgo, I don't it's really hard to
marry these two. It's really hardto marry the comedy with these serious discussions,
(25:06):
because you know, when you sitdown or do comedy, there's gonna
be someone being the butt of ajoke. And if I'm this comedian who
is roasting religion or making fun ofreligion, no more Christians are gonna join
me on the show. I'm justgonna look like any old atheist podcast that
just wants to beat up on people. And so if i'm if I approach
(25:30):
it seriously and try to have areal discussion that I think is gonna help
change lives, which is what Idid, people were like, this dude's
not funny at all, and thenI fall out of graces with the comedy
fans. So I feel like Ihad a good run. I feel like
it was really productive. It wasreally helpful for a lot of people.
But other parts of my career wouldrather it be acting, television, movies,
(25:52):
stand up comedy, social media influencingthese things. And you know,
I'm a business owner as well,managing and producing as well. I've written
a couple of things that you arefamiliar with that I can't talk about right
now, and I've got an announcementcoming up that you know about that I
can't share with anybody right now.A whole other aspect of my life that
(26:15):
most people probably don't even know thatI'm a part of. I'm just ready
for a new chapter of my life. And it doesn't mean I want to
be fully away from Dogma Debate.So I'm still here as executive producer.
Dogma Debate is still an intellectual propertyof mine that's owned by my parent company,
and so it's always been a balanceof like, how how can I
(26:40):
be serious and provide a solid frameworkfor making people challenge their beliefs while also
providing comedy and entertainment that I thatI want to provide. And that's why
my parent company is called Serious CircusIncorporated. It's that's that's my that's my
dichotomy. And so I talk aboutGod and religion in my stand up on
(27:04):
some level, but I don't wantto be known as the atheist comedian.
And so here I am building afollowing as a comedian selling out comedy clubs.
Not all of them were seld soldout, trust me. There were
some shows where I barely had peopleshow up, but there were still a
few shows that I literally packed theplace and there was a line out front
of people waiting for standby tickets andnever got in, and I'd still go
(27:26):
out and meet them and talk tothem, and it was it really just
let me know, I can shiftinto another part of entertainment and I'll be
okay. And so this show takesa lot out of you, like it
just does, and I'm I'm witnessing, I'm preparing you. But dude,
(27:48):
there were times where I would finisha three hour episode and just just go
collapse. I mean, I wouldjust I would just want I would want
to eat like shit, watch somethingstupid, veg out, and just not
think. Because listening listening to ashow while you're driving is nothing like being
(28:11):
engaged, I to I with someonewho's literally trying to convince you that owning
another human being is okay as longas God says so, Like it is
mentally and physically exhausting, and doingit for three or more hours, week
after week after week, fifty twoepisodes a year for fourteen years, and
(28:36):
on top of that, the planning, emailing back and forth, getting their
schedule, dealing with last minute cancelations, and then editing after having to do
the mastering, all the audio engineering, and then logging into the distribution platforms
and uploading and then having a differentversion for the public versus a different version
(28:56):
for patrons, and then being expectedto engage with patrons not only in the
comments, but in direct messages,and then getting emails from the contact from
on the website of people just wantingto talk, sending literally eight ten thousand
word emails telling me their life story, challenging some of my viewpoints, saying
they kind of agree, but they'repushing back. I'm like, I would
(29:19):
read, you know, one paragraphand reply and say, if you want
to be a guest on the show, I'm happy to talk to you about
it. But I just can't sithere and read your biography. I'm sorry,
you're your autobiography and so then ohyou're such an asshole. Oh you're
a dick. Oh I bet ifI had a movie role, you'd reply.
And it's just like it's it becameso much to manage that I just
(29:41):
started leaning into other aspects of myskill set, and dogma debate means the
world to me. But of allthe things that I do and have done,
rather it be movie, stand upcomedy, TikTok, all the other
things that I have going on thatI can't mention dogm debate is the smallest
(30:04):
contributor to my life financially, andso no, I'm not leaving because of
money. It's that these other thingsbring me pure joy and happiness. And
I feel at peace when I'm onstage doing stand up, when I am
sitting across from someone who's telling mea woman's place is barefoot in the kitchen
having babies, because god, Idon't have a good feeling in myself.
(30:30):
And I did it first. Ifelt like I was fighting the good foot.
I feel I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did
it first. I did for along time, and this last maybe one
to three years, I've really juststarted getting burnout on it. So I'm
not saying I'm gone. I'm sayingthat I'm gonna take a back seat right
now. Let you drive. Isaw you doing it on TikTok, on
(30:52):
your own. I saw the passion. I saw you arguing with drump supporters,
and so when we had our discussion, I was like this, you
know, there's not another person Icould say that I would trust to take
the show over and do it,and you're not just doing whatever you want.
You know, I'm still executive producerand I'm helping guide you. But
I think you're doing a great job, and there's gonna be a learning curve
(31:14):
you're gonna have. You know,people are gonna have their opinions about the
show. But I'm glad that it'sliving on. I'm glad that it's still
a platform I can pop in andjoin every now and then. And I'm
glad you're at the helm driving theship Man. I love being at the
helm Man, and I hope,I hope people are enjoying the content.
I have whatever passion it was thatyou had in the early days, I
am experiencing. This is exciting tome. And the interaction with the patrons
(31:37):
is super fun and I appreciate them. And I'm looking forward to Dogma Debating
for fourteen years myself. That'd begreat. Yeah, it'd be great.
I go. Yeah. I hadpeople offer to buy the brand. They
wanted to buy Dogma Debate. Atone point, Dogma Debate LLC was a
thing. The brand is, Ibelieve, trademarked and read and people were
(32:00):
offering to buy it, and Ijust I never wanted to let it go.
So people are like, oh,yeah, ended an episode in two
weeks, you new sell it I'mlike no, I think you know,
I've been offering quite a bit ofmoney for it, like a lot of
money, and I just was like, no, this it means too much
to me. The brand is socool, the logo is beautiful. I
love the color scheme. I justyou know, it took me a long
(32:21):
time to come up with it.I'm very happy with it, and I
don't want to let it go.It's been the fourth listeners mean too much
to me to just sell the brandand leave. I want to make sure
it's taken care of. And so, you know, being a part of,
you know, helping you take overthe show has been really fun for
me. It's kind of reignited mypassion for the production side of it.
(32:42):
You know. Nice, Well,here's too many great episodes to come absolutely
clink them cups cheers. Okay,so, but you have lived through the
Atheist heyday, David what I startedlistening to Dogma Debate fourteen years ago when
you started out and you were inTexas and I was in Los Angeles.
(33:06):
In case anybody doesn't know, Imet David Smalley when I was booked on
a comedy show with him, andwhen I first got notification. I saw
the lineup. I thought, oh, that's funny, David Smalley. That's
the name of an atheist. Dude. I'll have to tell this comedian like,
there's another dude out there using thename. And then they sent me
(33:27):
the poster for the show and Ilooked at it. I went, no,
that's that is David Small. Andthen I thought, wait a second,
have I been booked on the wrongshow? Is this like a speaking
engagement? Is this like, oh, prime example of brand confusion, that's
an exact example. I was completelyconfused. I was like, wait,
because I did tell the booker atthat particular club. I was like telling
(33:50):
them that I, you know,I was an atheist and everything. I
was like, did they book meon like a speaking engagement? Is this
just gonna be? I don't haveanything ready to go for that? And
then I that I realized, wait, David C. Smalley, the atheist
is a comedian. And I metyou that night, and for whatever reason,
we became fast friends. And butyeah, so you have lived through
(34:12):
what I considered to be an atheist. Heyday Hitchens, Harris Dawkins. It
really felt like something was happening.We were about to bust this thing wide
open and make the world skeptical.I don't believe that anymore. And I
want to go into the Patreon sectionwith that question. I want your answer,
(34:34):
what happened to the atheist movement?Do you have an answer to that
question? I know exactly what happenedto the atheist Okay, so if you
want to hear his answer, we'regoing to Dogma debate dot com. Now
right, Dogma Debate dot com.Click on the Patreon link. Follow us
on Patreon's shows, right, yeah, extended shows. Follow us on Patreon.
Uh, and you're gonna get alot of extra content. You're gonna
(34:57):
get a lot of great stuff ifyou you come over to Patreon. And
if you're not coming over to Patreon, because I do not say this man's
catchphrase, I refuse, so forat least a little while, this is
the last time you'll hear it.If you're not coming with us, please
at least drive like you know eachother. There you go.
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