April 15, 2025 • 33 mins
Joe Walsh was a Tea Party Republican. Today he is aligned with the Democrats in his effort to stop the tyranny that is the second Trump administration. Michael Regilio is a former Young Republican turned Bernie Sanders supporter. Joe and Michael discuss the dangerous times we live in and some possible solutions. More at dogmadebate.com
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hey, I'm Adam Carol Gillette.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Not only listening, I'm a guest.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm a teller, and I am a fourth listener, and
I am the fourth listener.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
And that must make me at least the fourth listener.
It's Dogma Debate with your host Michael Rigilio. For extra
content and to join the conversation, please head over to
Dogma Debate dot com and join our Patreon and welcome
to what absolutely pomps positively promises to be a fantastic
(00:34):
episode of Dogma Debate because I have none other than
former Tea Party congressman turned never trumper Joe Walsh with me. Joe,
thanks so much for joining.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hey, Michael, it's great to be with you. I mean it,
thank you, brother.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Absolutely, You and I had a great conversation here in
La I guess I was just over a week ago now,
and I mean, it's amazing we are so separate where
you are still a Republican, I'm a Bernie Sanders esque Democrat,
and yet I felt almost nothing but agreement with you
throughout the entire conversation. Trump has just pushed us to
(01:10):
a place where the important issues are so salient, and
the ones that we need to talk about immediately just
all agreement, and we can only hope that someday we'll
get into the nitty gritty about everything else, Like do
you believe we're trying we're here to save the republic?
Is that the is that where we're at as America?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I uh, And let me just make one correction. Michael
still a Tea Party conservative right. I formally left the
Republican Party when I ended my primary challenge to Trump
in February March of twenty so, almost five years ago.
I left the Republican Party have been an independent ever since.
(01:55):
I think we've lost our republic and now it's just
a question if we can get it back.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I think I would agree with that, And every day
it seems like we're getting closer and closer to just
here's something that kind of blew me away the other night.
I didn't hear a lot of other people talking about it.
Maybe you saw this, but Steve Bannon was on Bill Maher.
Did you happen to catch that? I did, and Bill
Maher read him the twenty second Amendment. The language could
(02:24):
not be more clear. Somebody cannot be elected president more
than twice period, And Steve Bannon said that's open to interpretation,
to which I was like, if that is open to interpretation,
the whole thing's open to interpretation. That means they are
(02:44):
not going to abide by the US Constitution anymore. The
whole thing could be interpreted however they want to interpret it.
And that was the sign to me that, like the Constitution,
was never the scaffolding around which they were going to
build their movement. It was the impediment to the movement.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Which, Michael is so ironic. Like you and I probably
disagree on most things politically, but I always considered myself
Tea Party because I revered the Constitution and I feared
I feared tyranny. And all of my former Tea Party
(03:23):
colleagues in Congress sold out and now they embrace a tyrant.
But so many of my former supporters and voters who
back in the day considered themselves proudly Tea Party. Here
they are, in twenty twenty five, embracing the king. Nothing
saddens me more than this.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, there's almost a poetry that America started as a
rebellion to a mad king, and we're going to end
by running back into the arms of a mad king.
But when you talk about your Tea Party former, you know, constituents,
and both those and your co workers in Congress. Yeah,
(04:06):
it seems to me when I heard them talk, it
seems like the scenarios that we've seen play out recently
are the exact ones they were freaking out about. Plane clothed,
masked men disappearing legal residents off the streets of America
with no due process into gulags in other countries. Seems
to be exactly what they were talking about with like Obama,
(04:28):
like where they were afraid of jack booted thugs, so
to speak, and now we're here and they're cheering for them.
They're on the side of the jack booted thugs, of
the plain clothed, masked men showing no credentials, just disappearing
people off the streets of America.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
I completely agree with all of that, Michael. And then
I'll take you in another direction. So I'm in Congress,
and don't get mad at me. Jim Jordan Ohio rep
used to be one of my good friends. And I'll
tell you what, Michael. Every time Barack Obama or you
remember these days, grabbed his pen or his phone and
(05:04):
even thought about writing out and executive signing an executive order.
We would go ballistic, and Jim Jordan and Joe Walsh
and all of us Tea Party guys in Congress would
hold a press conference and scream about Obama and executive overreach.
We've never seen anything like these first almost one hundred
(05:27):
days with Trump. Every day he signs about ten of them.
But again, Jim Jordan, all the Tea Party folk are
utterly silent, but your example hits home even more. I've
always considered myself a small government guy. Government is important
(05:51):
and it's necessary, but man, I fear, like our founders did,
big abusive government. And it just pains you and I
that we now have one political party, my former party,
and we don't say this enough, that has become authoritarian.
(06:14):
It's not conservative, doesn't believe in free markets, doesn't believe
in free trades. It is authoritarian. And that's finally come
to America, right.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
And I will say, though, that I don't believe it
is your former party. It's your former party died and
some avatar is in its place. And I'm reminded of
Mitt Romney, who said something along the lines of I'm
a wealthy man. I can afford security to protect myself
and my family. Not all of my coworkers, not all
(06:46):
my fellow Republicans are, and they actually fear speaking out
against Trump that the threat of violence is kind of
already there where people. It's not just that if you
don't fall in line, you get, you know, kicked out
of the party. But you're fearful for his most ardent followers.
Would you say that that's accurate?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Oh God, Michael spot On. Look, Adam Kinsinger and I
got elected in the same class. We both hail from Illinois.
He and I compare notes constantly. I came out against
Trump almost eight years ago. Now he came out after
January sixth. But the moment you publicly come out against
(07:30):
Trump as a Republican, everything bad happens, and your career
is over and your future as a Republican is over.
But you immediately put up with hate like I've never
seen on a regular basis, and you immediately put up
with threats to your life and so like I've had
(07:53):
to live with these for the last seven to eight years.
It's part of why Republicans don't stand up against him,
because you do have to live with this. It gets old,
it gets scary, it gets really tiring, and it sucks
because you are often under real threat.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
That is just crazy. And I saw one of your
videos and let's give you your YouTube channel a quick
plug for all the listeners right now. What would you
mind dropping that name?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Social Contract with Joe Walsh.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
That's right, Social Contract with Joe Walsh. And you were
talking about Pam Bondi and how and you call you
said something very interesting that you called her Trump's lawyer,
which it really feels like she is, which is what
he always wanted from his ags previously and was so
angry at them that they didn't provide that role to him.
(08:53):
But now the age who traditionally had almost nothing to
do with the executive branch. I often am reminded that
Komy refused to even play pick up basketball with Barack
Obama because he didn't want any association. He didn't want
it to seem like the Justice Department was in any
way being influenced by the executive branch. Now it seems
(09:14):
like the Trump is signing executive orders directing Pam Bondi
to investigate people, and she's doing it, including the former
staffers of his which he just did last week.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So, Michael, it's kind of weird. I'd be curious about
your take on this. In many ways, Trump is the
worst iteration of everything that's broken in our politics, everything,
and this is one example. So over the years, attorneys
general have become more political. A president can appoint the
(09:49):
attorney general, but the attorney general works for the country,
top law enforcement officer in the country. But look, we've
always had political attorney generals. JFK hired as brother ye.
I can remember in Congress Obama's first attorney general, Eric
holder Man. I'd go after Holder with a lot when
(10:09):
I even thought he was getting political. That just pales
in comparison to what this is. So along comes Trump
and it's just out in the open. I mean, Trump
basically says, Pam BONDI works for me. There's a lot
of corruption among politicians. What does Trump do? He just
throws his corruption out in the open. Bitcoin and my properties.
(10:32):
I'm going to use my office to make money. Most
politicians lie and they try to keep their lives quiet.
Trump lies out in the open every time he breathes.
In many ways, Michael, he's like this has been a
slow build, and then finally we elected somebody who's the
(10:55):
worst iteration of everything that's wrong with our politics.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
It's weird, right, it is weird. And I always wonder
to myself, though, is this in any way based on
Donald Trump's vision? Or is Donald Trump just the conduit
through which darker forces are pushing their vision on America
And he's just a guy that likes power, and he's like,
what do you want me to say? Deport American citizens
(11:19):
into third world gulags? You got it? Whatever it is.
I mean, do you think that Donald Trump is himself
this visionary, this fascist visionary, or is he just a
guy who likes power and has been utilized by these forces?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I think he's a fascist.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I think if he could be a tyrant and a
dictator and not have a constitutional laws tie him down,
he'd do that because I agree with you, he's all
about power, He's all about Trump. Trump has no philosophy,
He has no core philosophy. There's no policy bone in him.
He could be a Democrat, he could be a Republican.
(11:58):
He can be Hillary Clinton's best friend, and then he
wants to lock her up, So there's no philosophical core
to Trump, but the acquisition of power, and he does
though he does want to be an authoritarian. Absolutely, Republicans
fear him. But people around him, especially this term, they
(12:23):
know they've wised up this time. They know he doesn't
have a core, so they let him. They let him
just spew off about really two topics that he likes
to talk about, tariffs and Putin and all this other
stuff DEI, the transgender stuff, all the Project twenty twenty
(12:45):
five stuff. This is all beings driven by people around him.
And as you rightly said, they have their agenda. They
envision a real activist, nationalist, authoritarian.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Government, absolutely, and I think they've wanted it for a
long time. But now we're entering like the absolutely I mean,
and we're not even at one hundred days into this
man's term, but we're entering this incredibly dark time where
now we've gone from these were legal residents in the
United States that they were disappearing off the streets of America.
(13:19):
He is now openly talking about American citizens, as he
called them, home grown to Boukelly yesterday, and then Pam
Bondi's been asked about it, and Caroline Levitt's been asked
about it, and they're doubling down. We are looking into
the legality of taking It's so mind blowing that they
use this word deporting American citizens. Well, deep, they're in America,
(13:45):
is their home. You can't deport someone to another that's
not deporting, is it. I guess?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I mean no, Michael, this is such dark fucking stuff. Yesterday.
I had a bad time yesterday because if you're you're
an American and you listen to what he said in
the White House yesterday, you know, first off, you know
he could give a damn about due process for anybody.
(14:10):
But then to your point, I want to send American
citizens to foreign jails, man, I just that's just chilling.
It's against the law, it's unconstitutional. But he said he
wants to do it. It's not the first time he
said he wants to do it, you know. So, like,
(14:32):
I traveled the country every week and I hold conversations
and it was great to be out in La with
you last week. I had a conversation yesterday with a
really hardcore Trump supporter who used to be a big
supporter of mine, a good friend. We're no longer friends,
but we had a respectful conversation but Michael, he's just
(14:55):
enamored with this idea of sending American citizens down onto
l Salvador. And I said, but the law, but the Constitution.
I tried to walk him through all of this. Wanted
nothing to do with it. Made me so sad that again,
I think you mentioned this a few minutes ago. The right,
the Tea Party, these folks who claimed allegiance to a constitution,
(15:21):
and now so easily they'd abandon it because he's their guy,
He's their king. This is really really scary, and it's
going to get worse.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Absolutely, And it does raise a question, since we have
jails in America, what is the advantage And the only
thing I can think of is it's the skipping the
due process part. Why else would I mean, we have jails,
we do jail Americans in America. What is it that
he sees? What advantage does he see in deporting them
(15:57):
to El Salvador. Oh then.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, Michael, it's the cruelty. Let's remember he a big
part of what Trump does is advance cruelty and scare people.
You know my history, my friend, Right when I was
in right wing media, I engaged in this more than
(16:24):
I'm proud of cruelty sells on the right. It's why
he spent the campaign lying about immigrants crime rates, why
he lied about migrants eating cats and dogs. He uses
this issue to scare the fuck out of people. Donald
Trump in one phone call could get that Maryland guy
(16:46):
back up in America. He won't do it because he
wants to scare every immigrant even thinking about coming here.
In fact, he says, I'll even send American citizens down there.
I think that's designed to scare the hell out of
any immigrant even thinking about coming here.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, it's just it's also mind blowing. So I did
want to touch on another thing I've heard you talk about,
which is Elon Musk and what role do you think
he is playing in the Trump administration, because some point
to do you know, Curtis Jarvin.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, yeah, this is sort of.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
The Jarvinish vision of America, which is that democracy doesn't
work and we need something of a CEO, somebody who
is not encumbered by laws, and somebody that can be
you know, reined in by the Senate, in the House,
or even the judiciary. Do you see that as his role,
(17:46):
because I'm beginning to in addition to the fact that
he bankrolled Trump's election and every election for Republicans.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, I think he's probably the leading figure in that
Jarvin model. I can tell you, Michael that Republicans privately
despise Elon Musk. I can tell you that, and I
still engage with my former Republican colleagues in the House.
(18:12):
They can't stand him. They know he's hurting the Republican brand.
The people who work for Trump, the people in and
around the White House, just want Elon gone. They need
his money and they want they want his money for
the mid terms. So they're going to try to I mean,
if you think about it, Michael, he's been the last
(18:35):
few weeks. Ever since that loss in Wisconsin a couple
of weeks ago, Elon's been relatively quiet. There's a date
coming up in mid May where he either has to
shit or get off the pot. And if he stays
on beyond that, I think it's one hundred and twenty days,
it's made mid May something. Then he has to undergo
(18:56):
Senate hearings and undergo a full background check. He doesn't
want to do that. They don't want him to do that,
So I think they'll find a quiet way to transition
him before that mid May date.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Well, it seems like it's too late at this point anyway,
even if you could rain him in, because he's fired
all the inspector generals that look after all the agents
or all the agencies that would govern him and have
open investigations not only into him but into his cronies.
And this whole thing with the meme coin in the
bitcoin that you discussed earlier, this seems like the most
(19:31):
corrupt aspect of what they're all doing. And Trump, who
once called bitcoin a scam, then ran as I want
to be the crypto capital of the world, and now
has basically dropped all regulations against cryptocurrency as he himself
has launched World Liberty Financial USD one and his meme coin.
He has made it so that anybody anywhere, untraceable can
(19:55):
put money into his coffers.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Very close to him, Michael has told me and again,
I I think Trump's an idiot. I think he's an
utterly ignorant human being. But I do think he's he's
he's He's got some marketing abilities, and there are some
strategic strands. This guy close to Trump like truly believes
(20:21):
that Trump believes he if he's corrupt out in the open,
not behind closed doors. The American people won't think it's corruption.
And so part of his strategy Trump's is fuck it. Yeah,
I'm I'm gonna here's bitcoin, here's my this, here's my that.
(20:42):
I'm gonna build a property. I'm gonna build another property
in Saudi Arabia, and that will help our Middle East policy.
He believes that, and this is part of why he
lies so much. He believes if he just bombards people
with lies a thousand a day, people will just then
(21:06):
accept what he's saying. And I gotta admit, Michael, it's
a lot of his his strategy has been working, because
we we should be outraged at who he is and
what he does, and we're not.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah. No, I mean, it's the flooding the zone, it's
the Steve Bannon technique, which has proven to be absolutely effective.
And I can't believe how far are we fallen in
such a short amount of time.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
We we knowingly elected a really horrible human being. And
I'm always blown away by that, Michael, because tea Party guy,
I was out campaigning for Kamala Harrison every battleground state
last year. I said, and so many people would tell
me who voted for him? Hey, Joe, I know he's
(21:53):
a bad guy. I get it, I get it. I
would never do business with him. I get it. But
but but I don't care, Joe, because there was always
a reason, like the Democrats suck the borders, open eggs
are too expensive, whatever, the Democrats are wossies, whatever it was,
they knowingly voted for a bad man. We really did.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Do that, Yeah, because we wanted to go back to
the high stock market and the low prices of his
first term, or at least the first part of his
first term. And it was a devil's bargain and we lost.
We lost big time. And you were out there campaigning
for Kamala Harris, which brings me to my question about
the Democrats. You endorse the candidates, but I am assuming
(22:38):
you do not endorse the platform altogether.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Well, I got to be honest, so like I should
write the book from the Tea Party to the Democratic
Party in ten years. I mean, Michael, there's a part
of me that's thought about becoming a Democrat. I don't
know what their platform is. The Democrats are trying to
figure themselves out. Look, I am voting for Democrats, and
(23:04):
I'm helping Democrats win, probably for the rest of my life,
because I don't see my former party ever coming back.
I'll never be a Republican again. So whether I'm in
the party or out of the party, it's the only other.
They are the opposition party. I'd love a third party.
I'd love a fourth party. I've been talking about that
(23:25):
for a long long time. That ain't happening right now.
I don't think the Democrats know who they are, Michael. Like,
we're living and you may not like this, but we're
living in a populist moment. I'm a populist, so I
don't mind populism. There's good and bad. Donald Trump is
a bad populist, an evil populist. But man, Michael, the
(23:49):
Democrats have been asleep during this populist moment. They've been
in their ivory towers. They haven't understood the anger that
regular Americans feel. Democrats need to be fighters, and then
they need to figure out where they stand on regular issues.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Yeah, I would agree, And it gets into a little
bit of the conversation I had with you last week
here in La which is, you know the fire there
is energy right now, and it is definitely with Bernie
Sanders and AOC and their current tour that they're doing,
the End Alergarchy tour, but obviously Bernie's not running again.
(24:29):
And you asked me if I thought AOC could get elected.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, would you say, remind me?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I said I didn't. I didn't know. I don't think,
so I don't know. It seems to me, and not
because I don't support her and everything she stands for,
and the very tour that they're going on I think
is wonderful. But I want to win because I feel
like we have lost the republic. Getting back to what
we open the conversation with the I think the Republic
is gone and now it's a question of can we
(24:56):
get it back? Can we rebuild it? And therefore we
have to have to have to win not just the midterms,
but the presidential election in four years. So that's all
I'm focused on is winning. And yeah, you know, my
my pet projects aside as I'm talking to somebody who's
(25:17):
probably put a number of pet projects aside in the
name of just fighting to save America. So I'm not
sure who do you what? What? What conclusion? Because you
were doing a lot of asking of questions in your
in the discussion we had, which was great because you're
you're trying to get information, but we didn't get a
whole lot of your opinion on that particular matter. How
(25:37):
do you think the Democrats win in four years?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
So I'm somewhat agnostic on Oh, they need to move
to the middle, or they need to be hardcore progressive.
They need to have a fighter. I mean a fucking
balls through the wall fighter. I don't care where that
fighter comes from, the less left or the center left,
(26:02):
moderate wing of the party. I think it might be
better to have a moderate populist Democratic fighter. But if
it was AOC or Bernie twenty years ago, doesn't matter me.
I'd be all in with the fighter, don't. I don't
(26:24):
think AOC is ready for something like that. I don't
think she's got the gravitas. But Michael, if you put
a gun to my head, who do I think among
the Democrats? Do I want somebody who's a fighter and
I want somebody authentic. If the Democrats put up somebody
who sounds like a fucking politician, they're going to lose again. Yeah,
(26:48):
And I don't know. I don't know who that voice is.
Have you found it.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I don't know that I've found it, to be honest
with you, but I do know that that there's the
Republicans play so dirty that with Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen,
I was against her running for one reason and only
one reason, because there was no undecided voters. Fox News
had a ten year head start making sure everybody thought
she was the devil, that the people that couldn't conceivably
(27:17):
vote for Hillary Clinton against anybody, even including the actual
devil like Donald Trump, because they had spent ten years
poisoning that well. And I feel like they've done that
with AOC as well, where she's so divisive. There are
people on the right who don't understand her or her politics.
They understand that this this this chricature that the right
is created of her, of this dumb communist you know,
(27:40):
that's just going to destroy America.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
And so then you got to fight back, Michael. Then
you gotta fight back. If I agree with you, that's
what the right does. I was of the right, that's
what I would do. But then you got to fight back.
And Hillary, Yeah, she's been, you know, the mortal enemy
of the right forever. But Hillary was also the poster
(28:03):
child for kind of the tone deaf establishment politician. I
think you and I talked about it in LA I
think Bernie were the nominee in sixteen.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
He wins, he beats. I agree, and the numbers show that.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Too, because again, we were in a populous moment and
along comes Hillary whose misestablishment and she felt like she
was too good the campaign in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan with
regular people, so she really messed up a lot too.
You can't have that kind of candidate again. You need
(28:39):
a brawler.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, but I don't want in the country to remain divided.
But maybe that is just a wish that I will
never see realized because no matter who it is, I
think half the country is going to think America is dead.
And if we don't have a shared investment in how
this country, you know, turns out in the end, I
(29:01):
think we're screwed.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And another American, Yeah, Michael. So that's why I made
up my mind a few months ago after the campaign.
I don't want to sit in a TV studio in
New York City or DC for the next four years
commenting on Trump shoot me. If that's what I have
to do. I want to get out there, and so
(29:25):
I'm having conversations around the country because I agree with
what you just said. If the American people continue to
absolutely hate the people they disagree with, we're done no
matter who the president is. And so I want to
talk to the American people and listen to them, and Hey,
(29:47):
you want to stay together? Should we just say the
hell with it and get a divorce and break up?
And if we stay together, what does America look like?
What does that America look like? You all out in
LA you had some really fascinating I'm going everywhere. But
I agree with your thesis. Michael. I think I said
this in the second town hall back in twenty eleven
(30:09):
after I got elected my first second town hall is
a member of Congress. Back then I felt, I think
I don't know if America can stay together. And I
still believe that. I still worry. That drives me, and
I think it's going to be up to the people
to decide if we want to stay together.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, And I will just say that in closing, I
got a lot of Trump supporters in my life, a
lot of Trump supporters in my family, and shocker, when
we get together, we get along great. It doesn't have
to be like this. It's we're angry at this, this
online version of the other side that we think exists.
(30:51):
We are all, you know, the drivers on the freeway
who feel the safety of being in our car. And
you can give the finger to the guy that you
know cut you off and scream at him if you
were walking down the sidewalk. You wouldn't, you would never,
you would, you would engage them in a civil way.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Well, it's Michael, that's that's such a good fucking point.
And it's it's again why I'm doing what I'm doing
Because when I was campaigning for Harris, outside of the
political stuff, people would tell me. People would tell me
over and over and over they're dying to have face
to face conversations with people, to get away from their phones,
(31:28):
away from the internet.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
I think you're right, yeah, and so more of that.
And you're doing great work. And that's why I went
and met you last week in LA and why I
wanted to have you on because that it's this, This
is the exact right approach we should be talking and
if more less, you know, I asked you about that
Jubilee thing that I saw online and asked you if
you were interested, and which is where they take one
(31:52):
person of one point of view and they surround them
by about twenty other people and they they all come
up in debate. And you said, no, that you want it.
You're interested in bringing to people together and having good conversations,
and you're tired of all the debating and yelling. And
I don't know how we do it, but you're starting
to do it. And I say, more more of it.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Michael, But tell me if you disagree with me, the
old Joe Walsh, That's all I did was fight and
debate and debate and debate. Yeah, I'm I'm I just,
I'm I'm. I don't know that that moves the ball anymore.
Maybe I'm wrong. I just I want to engage people
just in conversation. Okay, there's not gonna be a winner
(32:31):
or a loser. Let's just have a conversation. But I
don't know. I'm always tempted to do a debate again
every now and then.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, I mean, I'll do them, and I do do
them all the time. But it is you know, a
psychologist will tell you that, you know, when you challenge
somebody's position, even with evidence, even if you undeniable evidence.
The first thing they do is double down on the
position it's just the psychological reality about being a human
being that it's easier to sucker a man than it
(32:59):
is to convince a man he's been suckered.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
And again, I'll just say for everybody listening to you
and I right now, you and I dabbled a little
bit of this with this in LA But if you
and I sat down, if we took the top twenty
public policy issues in this country right now, you and
I would disagree on the vast majority of them solutions
to them. But we've become friends and we're kind of
(33:24):
locked together here to help defeat what this threat is.
But you and I, you and I could have a
respectful conversation about immigration, tax policy, healthcare policy, you name it.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yep, we did. Yeah, yeah, more of that. Joe Walsh,
you're doing good work and I appreciate you man, and
I appreciate you coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Thanks so much, Michael, Thank you, my friend.
I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hey, I'm Adam Carol Gillette.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Not only listening, I'm a guest.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm a teller, and I am a fourth listener, and
I am the fourth listener.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
And that must make me at least the fourth listener.
It's Dogma Debate with your host Michael Rigilio. For extra
content and to join the conversation, please head over to
Dogma Debate dot com and join our Patreon and welcome
to what absolutely pomps positively promises to be a fantastic
(00:34):
episode of Dogma Debate because I have none other than
former Tea Party congressman turned never trumper Joe Walsh with me. Joe,
thanks so much for joining.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hey, Michael, it's great to be with you. I mean it,
thank you, brother.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Absolutely, You and I had a great conversation here in
La I guess I was just over a week ago now,
and I mean, it's amazing we are so separate where
you are still a Republican, I'm a Bernie Sanders esque Democrat,
and yet I felt almost nothing but agreement with you
throughout the entire conversation. Trump has just pushed us to
(01:10):
a place where the important issues are so salient, and
the ones that we need to talk about immediately just
all agreement, and we can only hope that someday we'll
get into the nitty gritty about everything else, Like do
you believe we're trying we're here to save the republic?
Is that the is that where we're at as America?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I uh, And let me just make one correction. Michael
still a Tea Party conservative right. I formally left the
Republican Party when I ended my primary challenge to Trump
in February March of twenty so, almost five years ago.
I left the Republican Party have been an independent ever since.
(01:55):
I think we've lost our republic and now it's just
a question if we can get it back.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I think I would agree with that, And every day
it seems like we're getting closer and closer to just
here's something that kind of blew me away the other night.
I didn't hear a lot of other people talking about it.
Maybe you saw this, but Steve Bannon was on Bill Maher.
Did you happen to catch that? I did, and Bill
Maher read him the twenty second Amendment. The language could
(02:24):
not be more clear. Somebody cannot be elected president more
than twice period, And Steve Bannon said that's open to interpretation,
to which I was like, if that is open to interpretation,
the whole thing's open to interpretation. That means they are
(02:44):
not going to abide by the US Constitution anymore. The
whole thing could be interpreted however they want to interpret it.
And that was the sign to me that, like the Constitution,
was never the scaffolding around which they were going to
build their movement. It was the impediment to the movement.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Which, Michael is so ironic. Like you and I probably
disagree on most things politically, but I always considered myself
Tea Party because I revered the Constitution and I feared
I feared tyranny. And all of my former Tea Party
(03:23):
colleagues in Congress sold out and now they embrace a tyrant.
But so many of my former supporters and voters who
back in the day considered themselves proudly Tea Party. Here
they are, in twenty twenty five, embracing the king. Nothing
saddens me more than this.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, there's almost a poetry that America started as a
rebellion to a mad king, and we're going to end
by running back into the arms of a mad king.
But when you talk about your Tea Party former, you know, constituents,
and both those and your co workers in Congress. Yeah,
(04:06):
it seems to me when I heard them talk, it
seems like the scenarios that we've seen play out recently
are the exact ones they were freaking out about. Plane clothed,
masked men disappearing legal residents off the streets of America
with no due process into gulags in other countries. Seems
to be exactly what they were talking about with like Obama,
(04:28):
like where they were afraid of jack booted thugs, so
to speak, and now we're here and they're cheering for them.
They're on the side of the jack booted thugs, of
the plain clothed, masked men showing no credentials, just disappearing
people off the streets of America.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
I completely agree with all of that, Michael. And then
I'll take you in another direction. So I'm in Congress,
and don't get mad at me. Jim Jordan Ohio rep
used to be one of my good friends. And I'll
tell you what, Michael. Every time Barack Obama or you
remember these days, grabbed his pen or his phone and
(05:04):
even thought about writing out and executive signing an executive order.
We would go ballistic, and Jim Jordan and Joe Walsh
and all of us Tea Party guys in Congress would
hold a press conference and scream about Obama and executive overreach.
We've never seen anything like these first almost one hundred
(05:27):
days with Trump. Every day he signs about ten of them.
But again, Jim Jordan, all the Tea Party folk are
utterly silent, but your example hits home even more. I've
always considered myself a small government guy. Government is important
(05:51):
and it's necessary, but man, I fear, like our founders did,
big abusive government. And it just pains you and I
that we now have one political party, my former party,
and we don't say this enough, that has become authoritarian.
(06:14):
It's not conservative, doesn't believe in free markets, doesn't believe
in free trades. It is authoritarian. And that's finally come
to America, right.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
And I will say, though, that I don't believe it
is your former party. It's your former party died and
some avatar is in its place. And I'm reminded of
Mitt Romney, who said something along the lines of I'm
a wealthy man. I can afford security to protect myself
and my family. Not all of my coworkers, not all
(06:46):
my fellow Republicans are, and they actually fear speaking out
against Trump that the threat of violence is kind of
already there where people. It's not just that if you
don't fall in line, you get, you know, kicked out
of the party. But you're fearful for his most ardent followers.
Would you say that that's accurate?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Oh God, Michael spot On. Look, Adam Kinsinger and I
got elected in the same class. We both hail from Illinois.
He and I compare notes constantly. I came out against
Trump almost eight years ago. Now he came out after
January sixth. But the moment you publicly come out against
(07:30):
Trump as a Republican, everything bad happens, and your career
is over and your future as a Republican is over.
But you immediately put up with hate like I've never
seen on a regular basis, and you immediately put up
with threats to your life and so like I've had
(07:53):
to live with these for the last seven to eight years.
It's part of why Republicans don't stand up against him,
because you do have to live with this. It gets old,
it gets scary, it gets really tiring, and it sucks
because you are often under real threat.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
That is just crazy. And I saw one of your
videos and let's give you your YouTube channel a quick
plug for all the listeners right now. What would you
mind dropping that name?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Social Contract with Joe Walsh.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
That's right, Social Contract with Joe Walsh. And you were
talking about Pam Bondi and how and you call you
said something very interesting that you called her Trump's lawyer,
which it really feels like she is, which is what
he always wanted from his ags previously and was so
angry at them that they didn't provide that role to him.
(08:53):
But now the age who traditionally had almost nothing to
do with the executive branch. I often am reminded that
Komy refused to even play pick up basketball with Barack
Obama because he didn't want any association. He didn't want
it to seem like the Justice Department was in any
way being influenced by the executive branch. Now it seems
(09:14):
like the Trump is signing executive orders directing Pam Bondi
to investigate people, and she's doing it, including the former
staffers of his which he just did last week.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So, Michael, it's kind of weird. I'd be curious about
your take on this. In many ways, Trump is the
worst iteration of everything that's broken in our politics, everything,
and this is one example. So over the years, attorneys
general have become more political. A president can appoint the
(09:49):
attorney general, but the attorney general works for the country,
top law enforcement officer in the country. But look, we've
always had political attorney generals. JFK hired as brother ye.
I can remember in Congress Obama's first attorney general, Eric
holder Man. I'd go after Holder with a lot when
(10:09):
I even thought he was getting political. That just pales
in comparison to what this is. So along comes Trump
and it's just out in the open. I mean, Trump
basically says, Pam BONDI works for me. There's a lot
of corruption among politicians. What does Trump do? He just
throws his corruption out in the open. Bitcoin and my properties.
(10:32):
I'm going to use my office to make money. Most
politicians lie and they try to keep their lives quiet.
Trump lies out in the open every time he breathes.
In many ways, Michael, he's like this has been a
slow build, and then finally we elected somebody who's the
(10:55):
worst iteration of everything that's wrong with our politics.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
It's weird, right, it is weird. And I always wonder
to myself, though, is this in any way based on
Donald Trump's vision? Or is Donald Trump just the conduit
through which darker forces are pushing their vision on America
And he's just a guy that likes power, and he's like,
what do you want me to say? Deport American citizens
(11:19):
into third world gulags? You got it? Whatever it is.
I mean, do you think that Donald Trump is himself
this visionary, this fascist visionary, or is he just a
guy who likes power and has been utilized by these forces?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I think he's a fascist.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I think if he could be a tyrant and a
dictator and not have a constitutional laws tie him down,
he'd do that because I agree with you, he's all
about power, He's all about Trump. Trump has no philosophy,
He has no core philosophy. There's no policy bone in him.
He could be a Democrat, he could be a Republican.
(11:58):
He can be Hillary Clinton's best friend, and then he
wants to lock her up, So there's no philosophical core
to Trump, but the acquisition of power, and he does
though he does want to be an authoritarian. Absolutely, Republicans
fear him. But people around him, especially this term, they
(12:23):
know they've wised up this time. They know he doesn't
have a core, so they let him. They let him
just spew off about really two topics that he likes
to talk about, tariffs and Putin and all this other
stuff DEI, the transgender stuff, all the Project twenty twenty
(12:45):
five stuff. This is all beings driven by people around him.
And as you rightly said, they have their agenda. They
envision a real activist, nationalist, authoritarian.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Government, absolutely, and I think they've wanted it for a
long time. But now we're entering like the absolutely I mean,
and we're not even at one hundred days into this
man's term, but we're entering this incredibly dark time where
now we've gone from these were legal residents in the
United States that they were disappearing off the streets of America.
(13:19):
He is now openly talking about American citizens, as he
called them, home grown to Boukelly yesterday, and then Pam
Bondi's been asked about it, and Caroline Levitt's been asked
about it, and they're doubling down. We are looking into
the legality of taking It's so mind blowing that they
use this word deporting American citizens. Well, deep, they're in America,
(13:45):
is their home. You can't deport someone to another that's
not deporting, is it. I guess?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I mean no, Michael, this is such dark fucking stuff. Yesterday.
I had a bad time yesterday because if you're you're
an American and you listen to what he said in
the White House yesterday, you know, first off, you know
he could give a damn about due process for anybody.
(14:10):
But then to your point, I want to send American
citizens to foreign jails, man, I just that's just chilling.
It's against the law, it's unconstitutional. But he said he
wants to do it. It's not the first time he
said he wants to do it, you know. So, like,
(14:32):
I traveled the country every week and I hold conversations
and it was great to be out in La with
you last week. I had a conversation yesterday with a
really hardcore Trump supporter who used to be a big
supporter of mine, a good friend. We're no longer friends,
but we had a respectful conversation but Michael, he's just
(14:55):
enamored with this idea of sending American citizens down onto
l Salvador. And I said, but the law, but the Constitution.
I tried to walk him through all of this. Wanted
nothing to do with it. Made me so sad that again,
I think you mentioned this a few minutes ago. The right,
the Tea Party, these folks who claimed allegiance to a constitution,
(15:21):
and now so easily they'd abandon it because he's their guy,
He's their king. This is really really scary, and it's
going to get worse.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Absolutely, And it does raise a question, since we have
jails in America, what is the advantage And the only
thing I can think of is it's the skipping the
due process part. Why else would I mean, we have jails,
we do jail Americans in America. What is it that
he sees? What advantage does he see in deporting them
(15:57):
to El Salvador. Oh then.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, Michael, it's the cruelty. Let's remember he a big
part of what Trump does is advance cruelty and scare people.
You know my history, my friend, Right when I was
in right wing media, I engaged in this more than
(16:24):
I'm proud of cruelty sells on the right. It's why
he spent the campaign lying about immigrants crime rates, why
he lied about migrants eating cats and dogs. He uses
this issue to scare the fuck out of people. Donald
Trump in one phone call could get that Maryland guy
(16:46):
back up in America. He won't do it because he
wants to scare every immigrant even thinking about coming here.
In fact, he says, I'll even send American citizens down there.
I think that's designed to scare the hell out of
any immigrant even thinking about coming here.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, it's just it's also mind blowing. So I did
want to touch on another thing I've heard you talk about,
which is Elon Musk and what role do you think
he is playing in the Trump administration, because some point
to do you know, Curtis Jarvin.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, yeah, this is sort of.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
The Jarvinish vision of America, which is that democracy doesn't
work and we need something of a CEO, somebody who
is not encumbered by laws, and somebody that can be
you know, reined in by the Senate, in the House,
or even the judiciary. Do you see that as his role,
(17:46):
because I'm beginning to in addition to the fact that
he bankrolled Trump's election and every election for Republicans.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, I think he's probably the leading figure in that
Jarvin model. I can tell you, Michael that Republicans privately
despise Elon Musk. I can tell you that, and I
still engage with my former Republican colleagues in the House.
(18:12):
They can't stand him. They know he's hurting the Republican brand.
The people who work for Trump, the people in and
around the White House, just want Elon gone. They need
his money and they want they want his money for
the mid terms. So they're going to try to I mean,
if you think about it, Michael, he's been the last
(18:35):
few weeks. Ever since that loss in Wisconsin a couple
of weeks ago, Elon's been relatively quiet. There's a date
coming up in mid May where he either has to
shit or get off the pot. And if he stays
on beyond that, I think it's one hundred and twenty days,
it's made mid May something. Then he has to undergo
(18:56):
Senate hearings and undergo a full background check. He doesn't
want to do that. They don't want him to do that,
So I think they'll find a quiet way to transition
him before that mid May date.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Well, it seems like it's too late at this point anyway,
even if you could rain him in, because he's fired
all the inspector generals that look after all the agents
or all the agencies that would govern him and have
open investigations not only into him but into his cronies.
And this whole thing with the meme coin in the
bitcoin that you discussed earlier, this seems like the most
(19:31):
corrupt aspect of what they're all doing. And Trump, who
once called bitcoin a scam, then ran as I want
to be the crypto capital of the world, and now
has basically dropped all regulations against cryptocurrency as he himself
has launched World Liberty Financial USD one and his meme coin.
He has made it so that anybody anywhere, untraceable can
(19:55):
put money into his coffers.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Very close to him, Michael has told me and again,
I I think Trump's an idiot. I think he's an
utterly ignorant human being. But I do think he's he's
he's He's got some marketing abilities, and there are some
strategic strands. This guy close to Trump like truly believes
(20:21):
that Trump believes he if he's corrupt out in the open,
not behind closed doors. The American people won't think it's corruption.
And so part of his strategy Trump's is fuck it. Yeah,
I'm I'm gonna here's bitcoin, here's my this, here's my that.
(20:42):
I'm gonna build a property. I'm gonna build another property
in Saudi Arabia, and that will help our Middle East policy.
He believes that, and this is part of why he
lies so much. He believes if he just bombards people
with lies a thousand a day, people will just then
(21:06):
accept what he's saying. And I gotta admit, Michael, it's
a lot of his his strategy has been working, because
we we should be outraged at who he is and
what he does, and we're not.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah. No, I mean, it's the flooding the zone, it's
the Steve Bannon technique, which has proven to be absolutely effective.
And I can't believe how far are we fallen in
such a short amount of time.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
We we knowingly elected a really horrible human being. And
I'm always blown away by that, Michael, because tea Party guy,
I was out campaigning for Kamala Harrison every battleground state
last year. I said, and so many people would tell
me who voted for him? Hey, Joe, I know he's
(21:53):
a bad guy. I get it, I get it. I
would never do business with him. I get it. But
but but I don't care, Joe, because there was always
a reason, like the Democrats suck the borders, open eggs
are too expensive, whatever, the Democrats are wossies, whatever it was,
they knowingly voted for a bad man. We really did.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Do that, Yeah, because we wanted to go back to
the high stock market and the low prices of his
first term, or at least the first part of his
first term. And it was a devil's bargain and we lost.
We lost big time. And you were out there campaigning
for Kamala Harris, which brings me to my question about
the Democrats. You endorse the candidates, but I am assuming
(22:38):
you do not endorse the platform altogether.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Well, I got to be honest, so like I should
write the book from the Tea Party to the Democratic
Party in ten years. I mean, Michael, there's a part
of me that's thought about becoming a Democrat. I don't
know what their platform is. The Democrats are trying to
figure themselves out. Look, I am voting for Democrats, and
(23:04):
I'm helping Democrats win, probably for the rest of my life,
because I don't see my former party ever coming back.
I'll never be a Republican again. So whether I'm in
the party or out of the party, it's the only other.
They are the opposition party. I'd love a third party.
I'd love a fourth party. I've been talking about that
(23:25):
for a long long time. That ain't happening right now.
I don't think the Democrats know who they are, Michael. Like,
we're living and you may not like this, but we're
living in a populist moment. I'm a populist, so I
don't mind populism. There's good and bad. Donald Trump is
a bad populist, an evil populist. But man, Michael, the
(23:49):
Democrats have been asleep during this populist moment. They've been
in their ivory towers. They haven't understood the anger that
regular Americans feel. Democrats need to be fighters, and then
they need to figure out where they stand on regular issues.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Yeah, I would agree, And it gets into a little
bit of the conversation I had with you last week
here in La which is, you know the fire there
is energy right now, and it is definitely with Bernie
Sanders and AOC and their current tour that they're doing,
the End Alergarchy tour, but obviously Bernie's not running again.
(24:29):
And you asked me if I thought AOC could get elected.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, would you say, remind me?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I said I didn't. I didn't know. I don't think,
so I don't know. It seems to me, and not
because I don't support her and everything she stands for,
and the very tour that they're going on I think
is wonderful. But I want to win because I feel
like we have lost the republic. Getting back to what
we open the conversation with the I think the Republic
is gone and now it's a question of can we
(24:56):
get it back? Can we rebuild it? And therefore we
have to have to have to win not just the midterms,
but the presidential election in four years. So that's all
I'm focused on is winning. And yeah, you know, my
my pet projects aside as I'm talking to somebody who's
(25:17):
probably put a number of pet projects aside in the
name of just fighting to save America. So I'm not
sure who do you what? What? What conclusion? Because you
were doing a lot of asking of questions in your
in the discussion we had, which was great because you're
you're trying to get information, but we didn't get a
whole lot of your opinion on that particular matter. How
(25:37):
do you think the Democrats win in four years?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
So I'm somewhat agnostic on Oh, they need to move
to the middle, or they need to be hardcore progressive.
They need to have a fighter. I mean a fucking
balls through the wall fighter. I don't care where that
fighter comes from, the less left or the center left,
(26:02):
moderate wing of the party. I think it might be
better to have a moderate populist Democratic fighter. But if
it was AOC or Bernie twenty years ago, doesn't matter me.
I'd be all in with the fighter, don't. I don't
(26:24):
think AOC is ready for something like that. I don't
think she's got the gravitas. But Michael, if you put
a gun to my head, who do I think among
the Democrats? Do I want somebody who's a fighter and
I want somebody authentic. If the Democrats put up somebody
who sounds like a fucking politician, they're going to lose again. Yeah,
(26:48):
And I don't know. I don't know who that voice is.
Have you found it.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I don't know that I've found it, to be honest
with you, but I do know that that there's the
Republicans play so dirty that with Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen,
I was against her running for one reason and only
one reason, because there was no undecided voters. Fox News
had a ten year head start making sure everybody thought
she was the devil, that the people that couldn't conceivably
(27:17):
vote for Hillary Clinton against anybody, even including the actual
devil like Donald Trump, because they had spent ten years
poisoning that well. And I feel like they've done that
with AOC as well, where she's so divisive. There are
people on the right who don't understand her or her politics.
They understand that this this this chricature that the right
is created of her, of this dumb communist you know,
(27:40):
that's just going to destroy America.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
And so then you got to fight back, Michael. Then
you gotta fight back. If I agree with you, that's
what the right does. I was of the right, that's
what I would do. But then you got to fight back.
And Hillary, Yeah, she's been, you know, the mortal enemy
of the right forever. But Hillary was also the poster
(28:03):
child for kind of the tone deaf establishment politician. I
think you and I talked about it in LA I
think Bernie were the nominee in sixteen.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
He wins, he beats. I agree, and the numbers show that.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Too, because again, we were in a populous moment and
along comes Hillary whose misestablishment and she felt like she
was too good the campaign in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan with
regular people, so she really messed up a lot too.
You can't have that kind of candidate again. You need
(28:39):
a brawler.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, but I don't want in the country to remain divided.
But maybe that is just a wish that I will
never see realized because no matter who it is, I
think half the country is going to think America is dead.
And if we don't have a shared investment in how
this country, you know, turns out in the end, I
(29:01):
think we're screwed.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And another American, Yeah, Michael. So that's why I made
up my mind a few months ago after the campaign.
I don't want to sit in a TV studio in
New York City or DC for the next four years
commenting on Trump shoot me. If that's what I have
to do. I want to get out there, and so
(29:25):
I'm having conversations around the country because I agree with
what you just said. If the American people continue to
absolutely hate the people they disagree with, we're done no
matter who the president is. And so I want to
talk to the American people and listen to them, and Hey,
(29:47):
you want to stay together? Should we just say the
hell with it and get a divorce and break up?
And if we stay together, what does America look like?
What does that America look like? You all out in
LA you had some really fascinating I'm going everywhere. But
I agree with your thesis. Michael. I think I said
this in the second town hall back in twenty eleven
(30:09):
after I got elected my first second town hall is
a member of Congress. Back then I felt, I think
I don't know if America can stay together. And I
still believe that. I still worry. That drives me, and
I think it's going to be up to the people
to decide if we want to stay together.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, And I will just say that in closing, I
got a lot of Trump supporters in my life, a
lot of Trump supporters in my family, and shocker, when
we get together, we get along great. It doesn't have
to be like this. It's we're angry at this, this
online version of the other side that we think exists.
(30:51):
We are all, you know, the drivers on the freeway
who feel the safety of being in our car. And
you can give the finger to the guy that you
know cut you off and scream at him if you
were walking down the sidewalk. You wouldn't, you would never,
you would, you would engage them in a civil way.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Well, it's Michael, that's that's such a good fucking point.
And it's it's again why I'm doing what I'm doing
Because when I was campaigning for Harris, outside of the
political stuff, people would tell me. People would tell me
over and over and over they're dying to have face
to face conversations with people, to get away from their phones,
(31:28):
away from the internet.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
I think you're right, yeah, and so more of that.
And you're doing great work. And that's why I went
and met you last week in LA and why I
wanted to have you on because that it's this, This
is the exact right approach we should be talking and
if more less, you know, I asked you about that
Jubilee thing that I saw online and asked you if
you were interested, and which is where they take one
(31:52):
person of one point of view and they surround them
by about twenty other people and they they all come
up in debate. And you said, no, that you want it.
You're interested in bringing to people together and having good conversations,
and you're tired of all the debating and yelling. And
I don't know how we do it, but you're starting
to do it. And I say, more more of it.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Michael, But tell me if you disagree with me, the
old Joe Walsh, That's all I did was fight and
debate and debate and debate. Yeah, I'm I'm I just,
I'm I'm. I don't know that that moves the ball anymore.
Maybe I'm wrong. I just I want to engage people
just in conversation. Okay, there's not gonna be a winner
(32:31):
or a loser. Let's just have a conversation. But I
don't know. I'm always tempted to do a debate again
every now and then.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, I mean, I'll do them, and I do do
them all the time. But it is you know, a
psychologist will tell you that, you know, when you challenge
somebody's position, even with evidence, even if you undeniable evidence.
The first thing they do is double down on the
position it's just the psychological reality about being a human
being that it's easier to sucker a man than it
(32:59):
is to convince a man he's been suckered.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
And again, I'll just say for everybody listening to you
and I right now, you and I dabbled a little
bit of this with this in LA But if you
and I sat down, if we took the top twenty
public policy issues in this country right now, you and
I would disagree on the vast majority of them solutions
to them. But we've become friends and we're kind of
(33:24):
locked together here to help defeat what this threat is.
But you and I, you and I could have a
respectful conversation about immigration, tax policy, healthcare policy, you name it.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yep, we did. Yeah, yeah, more of that. Joe Walsh,
you're doing good work and I appreciate you man, and
I appreciate you coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Thanks so much, Michael, Thank you, my friend.
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