#810 - Christian v Atheist

Christian Billy Mazur thinks the end times prophesied in the Bible are happening now. Atheist Michael Regilio is not convinced.  More at dogmadebate.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Neil de grass Tyson. Hey, I'm Adam Carolah Gillette.
Not only listening, I'm a guest, I'm a teller, and
I am a fourth listener, and I am the fourth listener,
and that must make me at least the fourth listener.
It's Dogma Debate with your host Michael Rigilio. For extra

(00:20):
content and to join the conversation, please head over to
Dogma Debate dot com and join our Patreon And welcome
to a fantastic episode of Dogma Debate. And I can
say that with total confidence because this is a return
guest and last time he was on it was an
amazing episode. It's Billy Maser's back. Billy, welcome back to

(00:42):
dog Debate.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Thank you, Michael. I'm greatly obliged, appreciative and thankful and
all those nice adjectives. I appreciate it really well.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Thank you for the adjectives. And today's episode is going
to be about the end times because Billy sees a
lot of parallels between what is prophesied in the Bible
and what is going on today. But I thought i'd
reintroduced Billy real quick. Billy has an interesting story. So Billy,
although we already heard your life story in the last episode.

(01:09):
Why do you give us the cliff notes of how
it was that you went from center to aspiring saint.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, aspiring is a keyword. Yeah, Michael, thank you again,
and I appreciate the fact that you give us this
platform to speak. And I've really really mean that in
regards to my life, and I'll give you cliff notes.
I'll try to condense very quickly. I was born into
a family that was very unfamily. As a youth, I

(01:40):
was incarcerated, I was orphaned. I was in many orphanages,
several orphanages, I should say many foster homes. One orphanage
was a Catholic orphanage I was in for four years.
I was in probably a half dozen or more group
homes and foster homes, and eventually falsely incarcerated, mind you,
for three years. So I know for a fact that

(02:02):
there are people in jail that are innocenty even though
everybody claims to be innocent, we know that's not the case.
But there are people that are. I was homeless for
many years after several years after coming out of incarceration
at seventeen, I was homeless for a couple of years,
and I was introduced to Jesus Christ as a youth
at that time, while I lived a YMCA in New Jersey,

(02:25):
and I was at the bottom of the wrong, as
it were. I was living with a bunch of in
a place where a bunch of what they call bowery bums, drunkards, whinos,
that type of thing live. I was eighteen and they
were seventy sixty eighty, and they were a bunch, you know,
no offense to them, but most of them were part

(02:46):
up on their life. God has delivered me from that.
He saved me from that. He forgave me. He delivered me.
And as I mentioned to you previously, Michael, I'm on
the road. I'm not complete the course. I fall, I stumble,
And I like to tell people this all the time.
The only difference between the sinner and the saint is

(03:06):
we both fall, we both stumble, we both do wrong.
But the sinner stays in it, continues in it, as
opposed to them that get up, rush it off and
say Lord, have mercy on me and forgive me, and
they start over. There's none perfect. The only one that
was ever perfect in this world was Crucified, and his
name is Jesus Christ. But I think that that'll take

(03:28):
you a little bit. I try to condense it. That'll
take a job.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Ask you, yeah, and if you're interested, I will post
in the show notes. Then episode number the last time
Billy was on. He goes into great depth as to
his story from ne'er dwell to nearly doing well. I
don't know. I tried, Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, Michael, So, Michael, if I can, yeah, go ahead,
read ahead, go go ahead, go ahead. I was gonna say,
if I can. You know, there's a lot of things
going on Israel right now, and for most of the world,
it's not seen through the eyes or the vision of prophecy.
But it is prophetic, and it's pathetic, to be honest

(04:13):
with you, a lot of lost lives needlessly, a lot
of lost souls need.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
You're saying that it's not seen through the eyes of
prophecy by a lot of the world.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
That's correct, That's correct a lot.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
I would just agree. I feel like this is a
bunch of people hashing it out from sixteen hundred year
old beef, so to speak. And I think that absolutely,
at least in the players at hand are seeing this
through the eyes of prophecy, particularly if you take the

(04:45):
Israelis and the Iranians who currently are shooting missiles at
each other, I would say that this is a case
of where religion is bad for the world, and that
if it wasn't for these old books and these beliefs
and these people that were sure they were right because
it was written down in an old book, that the
world would be a better place. But I do think
that although an atheist like I am not going to

(05:09):
see it through the eyes of prophecy, I think the
people shooting missiles at each other do see it through
the eyes of prophecy.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, I think I think some You know, to some
degree you're correct in that that some do and some don't.
But I think, as a rule general, most people, when
I say most people Americans and worldwide, they don't necessarily
look at it as another daily event, daily occurrence, as
opposed to prophecy being fulfilled. But I won't I won't
go I chose not to go into that area today

(05:38):
for specific reason because against a lot of people don't
look at that through the eyes of prophecy. But what
I do want to go into are some of the
current affairs that occur that were spoken of, sometimes thousands
of years ago, most times thousands of years ago, that
would occur prior to the return of Jesus Christ. And

(06:01):
if you don't mind, I wrote a few notes now
so I wouldn't forget, and I'm going to kind of
do it in chronological order, okay, And if.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
You don't mind, I'll interject as we go along.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
I'll be more than happy to hear that, brother, more
than happy. In the Book of Daniel, this is very
important to know. The Book of Daniel, chapter twelve, verse
four begins with But the Book of Daniel talks about
the prophet Daniel. And we you know, most of us,
I would say, know a little bit about Daniel. But
he said this, and he wrote this down. He said,

(06:34):
many shall run to and for them. He was saying
this as as the latter days occur, the end of
the time as we know it. He said that he
wrote this down according to the words from an angel
that had given him these writings. He said all these words,
he said, many shall run to and fro and knowledge
shall increase. Now that might seem, you know, rather vague,

(06:59):
but when you look at the time time that he
wrote that some what twenty five hundred years ago or
so twenty six hundred years ago. He wrote that since then,
since then, knowledge doubled around the turn of the century,
around the nineteenth century, maybe when we introduced industrial revolution,

(07:20):
knowledge doubled. You know, from twenty five hundred years ago,
knowledge only doubled since the industrial.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
You were able to ascertain that knowledge that it took
until then for knowledge to double.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Right, Right, This is something that I heard growing up
in the church. But I did research it. I went
online and I researched that, and yes, you know, and
it really, it really bears weight because when you think
about it, back in the days of the biblical days,
they wrote camels and horses and chariots. Right, some thousands

(07:55):
of years later, it took the Industrial Revolution in the
early nineteen hundred is when we developed the automobile, the
combustion engine. The automobile thousands of years went by. Knowledge double.
The same thing with air travel. Oh, it also says
in verse four, it says knowledge men shall run to
and fro, and knowledge shall increase. That's what it says.

(08:18):
Now men running to and fro. You can wonder what
that is. But have you been out on the interstate lately,
as particularly at night when all you see is lights.
That's all people are doing, are coming and going, coming
and going. And here's the thing you got to remember.
Back when this was written, people used to develop communities
because there wasn't a whole lot of places for them

(08:38):
to travel to. It was vast, there was land. There
was very little transportation at that time, whether than a
camel or a horse, and only the hierarchies had them.
So we go from there to today, when it's expected
to have a phone and a car or a bicycle
or whatever your motor transportation is. Knowledge truly has double

(09:01):
air travel.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
I would saying since the time of the Book of Daniel,
I don't know, quadrupled times a thousand.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
It really hasn't not since well, well today it has. Well,
what I was saying was from the time of Daniel an.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
Argument to me, it made for that I was. I
wanted to push back on it. Then. I was thinking
about the Romans and the achievements they had engineeringly speaking
at that time and stuff. So I think there was
a lot of knowledge back then. And I guess, yeah,
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Saying it wasn't a lot of knowledge. There was and
you're right in what second and double it.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Probably took a lot of a lot of effort. I
don't know about the nineteen hundred. I mean it depends.
I mean Isaac Newton himself probably doubled knowledge just in
his lifetime. It depends on what you mean by knowledge engineering,
mechanical technology.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Correct in that. But if I may, okay, in two
thousand and lush year, at twenty twenty four, approximately nine
and a half billion with a B people have flew
commercially worldwide, nine and a half billion. Now, we can't
even begin to fathom that back in the day, back

(10:17):
in the days of the biblical times. So again running
to and fro. But I'm just gonna, like I said,
I'm gonna just take an.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Chronology chronologically chronologically.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
Thank you. I couldn't get that word out either. You know,
we have again going from Daniel, for knowledge shall increase
and people shall run to and fro. We see that
in our generation more than we've ever seen it before.
I have I shouldn't say I meet personally, but there

(10:49):
are grand great grandparents on this earth that was still
around during horns and buggy time. All of this has
occurred in our generation and this is where going.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
It's been a good general it's been a good hundred
some years for technology, for sure. I wonder, though, what
do you think would have accounted for people coming and
going at the time of Daniel, Like if just there
was a town center and you know, people were coming
in from other towns and coming in from the country
and stuff like that, would if he thought, would he

(11:21):
at that time had thought to himself, that's people coming
and going.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
I mean, you know, you know, you could you could
make a case for that. However, it was so infrequent.
Today it's daily, it's sometimes multiple times a day.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
I feel like it was daily back then too. Even
in the Bible you read about, you know, the town
centers and and the commerce going on and people coming
in from other towns. There was the trade routes that
existed at that time that people you know, traveled along.
You know, obviously we had thieves along the trade routes.
You don't have thieves along the trade routes unless there's

(11:56):
a lot of people traveling the trade routes. You know,
what idea of people coming and going. I don't know
that it necessarily required planes, trains, planes and automobiles. A
fine film starring John Candy and Steve Martin.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah. I like that movie too. You know, I don't
disagree with what you're saying, because you know, you're very logical,
and I like that about you. You think, however, think
about this nine point five billion people in one year,
one year traveling to and fro. You got to remember

(12:31):
what Daniel wrote, this prophecy down. He said that in
the latter times not knowledge shall increase, and man shall
run to and fro. Now we as you just said,
you know, there was knowledge prior to that, there was
some commerce, but nothing like I mean, listen, let's just
get away from commerce. Let's just go to socializing. You know,

(12:52):
we go to see concerts, we go to sports events,
we go to everywhere that visit people out of state,
out of we go tourism, you know, the I don't
I'd honestly don't see and you can tell me if
I'm wrong, But I can't see tourism being a big
thing back in the early early days because they had

(13:13):
no way. First of all, I had no knowledge. They
didn't have radios, they have pictures, they have cell phone,
they don't knowledge these places existed, So they basically stayed
where they were, They didn't have knowledge of those things,
they didn't have pictures of those things, and they didn't
have the mode of transportation that we now have. But
having said that.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
One more point before we move on just quickly, which
I don't know that it would be even something we
need to debate, because as a religious person, I think
I know what your answer would be. But for me personally,
somebody saying that an angel told them so and they
wrote it down is not quite good enough for me
to say that this is a prophet, that this is.

(13:55):
Other people today are saying that angels are speaking to
them and they're writing it down, and you and I
would both say that person belongs in the cuckoo house,
if I could be so.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Michaelow, disagree with you. A lot of false religions have
developed that way, by saying that they got a higher
calling from an angel. And I'm not going to mention
any religions. I'm not here to knock other religions, but
I do agree with you that you can't take everything
that you hear as being engraved in stone. And I

(14:30):
know that. However, when you talk about Daniel, when you
look at his past and his history and his being
and weighed out against some of these loonies like Jim Jones.
The Jonestown massacre which occurred, you know, you're probably familiar
with that being in California, occurred in nineteen seventy eight.

(14:50):
What was that Heavens Gate? You know they had Heavens
Gate probably what twenty five thirty years ago? Twenty years ago, yes,
where you know, they had a bunch of crazy peoples
say that they've been instructed by outer beings that they
would do this. They thought all taking their lives.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
They're catching a ride out of Commet if I'm not
mistaken exactly.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
And they all had Nike sneakers on. If I'm not
mistaken either, they all.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Literally had and I recall that as well.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, But you know, regardless of that, my
point is, if you look at Daniel's life and examine
his life with a fine toothed comb, you'll see he
wasn't heretic, he wasn't illogical as yourself, He wasn't ungodly.
He was a very godly man. So you kind of
put him in a different category when you say that

(15:38):
he was instructed than you would a Jim Jones. Well,
having said.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
That, I don't know that you could verify any of
the things that it says about Daniel's life in the book.
So far, not super convincing. People going to grow because
an angel told me, I'm gonna need a little more
than that.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Okay, yeah, listen with respected it. I said, I was
taking it chronologically. That's when I started giving you. I'm
giving you the report card so far. Not not convinced.
I'm gonna work. Listen, I'm gonna gain steam in a
minute here, bud.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
All right, so next point, let's go.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
What my next point would be. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke,
and John. Four gospels. Three of those gospels I believe
it's Mark thirteen, Luke twenty one, and Matthew twenty four.
Jesus spoke to his apostles and they asked him very
clearly and very plainly, to give them a sign of
his return, of his coming, and of the end of

(16:36):
the world. And when they spoke at the end of
the world, it's really the end of the age, the
end of the world the way we know it. Not necessarily,
there's not gonna be any people left on earth. That's
the end of the world. But the end of the
world being the end of the age, and Christ gave
a lot of examples of what was going to occur
prior to his return. Now here's where we get in

(16:57):
to where if we watch the news, the evening news events,
we see things happening in a way that Christ predicted verbatim.
And to deny that is to deny as you like
to call science and other people like to call science,
is to deny facts, but is also to deny Christ.

(17:19):
And so when the words of Christ, Jill and Finger
joined together with what we see on the news, I
think it's time to take heed. And having said that,
canst sure was.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
This before or after Jesus was crucified when they said
signs of your return? Because if it was before he
was crucified, didn't he then return in their lifetime? Or
is this after speaking of the.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
This is prior to his short term return when he
came back, when he raised was raised from the dead
after the three days, and then as he ascended to heaven,
you know he promised to come back again. He said
in the same manner that you see me leave, you
will see me return through the clouds. I'll be taken
up in the same manner, you'll see me coming back down.

(18:05):
And that's what we call the return, the reserv or
the return of Jesus Christ. And that's what a lot
of Europeans, Muslims, et cetera. They believe the same thing,
except they don't believe it's going to be Christ. They
believe it's going to be a Messiah of their choosing.
And you know, listen, that's their prerogative. I'm not knocking
them for that. I think they're wrong. But getting back

(18:27):
to the fact that Christ said that these things would
happen just prior to his unfulfilled, uncompleted return as yet,
which is abound to happen soon. He stated that the
things that we're seeing on the evening news were going
to happen exponentially, you know when we talk about floods
and fires and earthquakes. He mentioned all of those things

(18:49):
in the twenty fourth chapter. And I'd like to specifically
talk about twenty fourth chapter of Matthew because it hits
it right on the head. She talks about the seas,
the way the seas and the waves roaring. That's flooding.
We've had so much tremendous flooding like we've never had before. Now,
certain people will like this to call it climate climate change,

(19:10):
and that.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Type of people being scientists and experts, they.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Can call it anything you want. But the fact of
the matter is it's happening. He didn't have to go
into details. When your mother or grandmother bakes you an
apple pie, they don't sit there and tell you every
ingredient and how they did it and where they got
to deal from. They just tell you here it is,
and you know what, you don't ask about all those things.
You enjoy it. As a Christian, we don't have to

(19:37):
say climate change. It may be a result of climate change.
I don't particularly know, But what I do know is
that it has been prophesied to occur, and that that
pie has been served before me, and I'm eating it,
You're eating of it. Whether we like it or not,
we're all partaking at that table. So the things that
christ mentioned, whatever is bringing them to being, is not

(19:59):
as relevant as the fact is that they are happening.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Whether whether it is cyclical. The people that will argue
with you about climate change or whatnot, we'll say it's cyclical.
You know, it changes all the time, And there's truth
in that, but that's that said. I don't know that
there's never been a time of more flooding than now.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
I mean, listen the devastation of floods, now, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes,
what we like to call natural destruction, or I.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
Think you make a I don't know that there's an
argument that there's more earthquakes now than there used to be,
other than perhaps because of fracking in Oklahoma.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
But again that could be. I'm not saying that it
isn't contributory. However, Jesus did talk about the earthquakes as
well in Matthew twenty four he's called he said the
earth would be quaking. And so we look at all
these things that are happening when I watch the news,
and let's let's get past the We'll just get past
the scientific aspect and get to the moral or immoral aspect.

(20:57):
You know. In that same book, the twenty fourth out
of Matthew, and it's only a page and I have
maybe two pages long. I would advise anyone that's listening
to this program, including yourself and myself, to read it
and read it, to study it out and look at
it as it as it states, and then think about
what we've witnessed, whether it be in the evening news
or whether it be through computer news, it bears witness

(21:22):
that it is exactly verbatim what christ said. So you know,
like I said, you could take science and you could
either add to it or take away from it. Science
is wonderful, it's you know, it's a good thing to
be used properly. But we know that science can be
misinterpreted as well. It has been many times. It has recently.

(21:43):
We know with the COVID situation, where we won't go
into the politics of that, well we know that occurred.
We also know that occurred.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
But I will say that science does get things wrong,
and the people that correct science are scientists, not layman
like you and I. Well, you don't necessarily say science
is wrong. So I'm not going to believe anything that
science says because it got.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
Well I didn't say not to believe it. But what
I'm saying is that you weigh it out. You weigh
out something science is correct about, but there are something
science is incorrect about. So therefore what you or I
or someone else may determine what we believe based on
science is like spitting in the wind, which ways, the wind.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
The wind. It's taking all the available data and coming
up with the best conclusions based on that data. New
data can mean more different conclusions, which does happen. But
it's all data based. It's all information based. Nobody's spitting
into the wind.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Okay, Mike, let me ask you this. You talk about
data and information. Didn't they have that undred years ago?
When when? When when Daniel wrote.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
This, they didn't have the scientific method. In fact that
they believe that the the natural world was completely run
by spirits and gods that were a result of it
ain't god, And lightning was a result of an angry god,
and plagues and disease were uh, you know, demonic possessions
and punishments from an angry god. They didn't understand scientifically

(23:11):
what was going on at all.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
I'm pulling him, Matt Locke on you. You never ask
you You never asked a question you don't know the
answer to. If Daniel didn't know those things and knowledge
wasn't available, therefore, when he said knowledge shall increase, men
shall run to and fro in a lot of times,
that's where we are today. That's where we are. So

(23:34):
given that what you just said out of your own mouth.
You said, we didn't have it, then we got it.
Now that's proof alone that what Daniel said is so.
But that's that's not even I could.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Have said that. Isn't that the natural way?

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Daniel said it, and he wrote it down and it's
biblically historically correct and it has been and it can't
be denied.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
I mean, let me ask you, as long as you
want to bring us back to Daniel, Billy, So in
Daniel's time, do you think that even he could look
back at the history of the world up to his
point in time and say that knowledge had increased and
then there therefore wouldn't it make sense that Dodge would
continue to increase? Was it this just obvious that knowledge

(24:15):
is going to continue to increase.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
That sounds logical, you would think that, right, I mean,
logically you would think that. But what he was emphasizing
on was that in a lot of times when we
take that emphasis and put it on a lot of
times which we believe we're living in now, and the
way knowledge is increasing today since it took what from
Genesis to maybe Daniel for now knowledge to double from Daniel,

(24:41):
which was about five hundred years before Christ to double again,
Well didn't even double then, but from Christ to currently
you know, to the year two thousand or so, it doubled. Okay,
two thousand years it took to double. You know how
much knowledge doubles now if you go on the internet

(25:01):
and you type in knowledge doubling is what they call
a doubling curve. But do you know how much knowledge?
How quickly knowledge doubles now?

Speaker 1 (25:09):
Twelve I do know that a like every six weeks
or something like that.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
But yeah, that's not count a.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Knowledge increases. And that has to do with as time
goes by, people learn, they make mistakes, they and and
they correct for them, and knowledge increases. That's just how
it goes I mean, it's even in Daniel's time, knowledge
had increased.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Up to his it increased increase exponentially. That's the difference.
When Daniel was speaking, he said people shall travel to
and fro knowledge shall increase. He was talking exponentially. We've
gone from two thousand years of knowledge doubling to twelve months. Now,
with AI coming on the scene, it's probably going to
be drastically less than that.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, I like I said, I heard.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Daniel side these things. But let's let's put Daniel behind
and move it up again. As I said, we're going
to move up to revelations. But before I do, I
want I want to tell you, tell you one thing
that Christ did mention and the twenty fourth chapter of Matthew.
He said that in the latter days, just before his return,
he gave us all these signs. If you just read
those two pages twenty fourth chapter of Matthew, he give

(26:20):
us all these signs. One of the signs that he
said would be that the love of many, because wickedness
shall abound wickedness, the love of many shall wax cold. Now,
in our time frame, I don't know about you. I'm
a little bit older than you, but in fact I
just turned sixty five a few days ago. So in

(26:41):
my time frame, pardon, happy birthday, Thank you, Thank you,
my friend. I appreciate that. But in my time, given
the fact that I had a horrendous childhood, that's just
me personally, But the world that I grew up in
was a different place. It was a I would go
back to that time and accept and all the downside

(27:02):
of that time, with exception of the cognition. And as
I mentioned to you earlier, I would accept all that
again to go back there again. Not because I'm living life,
you know, in my glory days, because I really didn't
have any glory days. But the fact of the matter
is because we're living in a time where Christ predicted
all these things would occur. And he said, in the

(27:23):
last days, the love of many shell rocks call, because
iniquity shall abound. Iniquity is horrifying, immoral sin, that's against
God's law. If we look at worldwide, you know work,
because God doesn't see just America. He sees the entire world.
For Christ love the world. He gave as only these
God son, for God's love the world. So God looks

(27:44):
the whole world. And when you look at the whole world,
the corruption, the wickedness, the violence, all these things that
are occurring in our days, that they when they did
permeate society. Judgment came prior to that. Jesus said, as
it was in the days of Noah, so will it
be in the end. And if you read in a

(28:05):
six chapter of Genesis, I believe it's verse five, it
says God saw the wickedness of man and that was
continually evil in his heart. And a few verses beyond that.
He said that, and the earth was corrupt before God
and full of violence. Now this occurred in a time
of Noah, and as a result, the flood occurred, wipe

(28:26):
mankind off the face of the earth, reception of Noah
and his family and a bunch of animals, obviously, But
you know, we could joke about that, we can dispute that,
but that same scenario is occurring today, not in nineteen seventy,
not in nineteen sixty, not in nineteen fifty.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
But that's my point, and I'm going to let Noah
thing go for a moment, which obviously there's zero we
discussed before whatsoever. But let's not go down.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
That, right. We discussed that before.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
That's the point you're trying to make, and so let's
stick to the Troy point you're trying to make. It.
It seems to me that when you say inequity, that
iniquity is actually probably a lot better than it was
in nineteen sixty or nineteen seventy. We passed the Civil
Rights Act in nineteen sixty.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
In iniquity, not iniquity, iniquity, iniquity and iniquity. If you
look up the word iniquity, it will tell you im moral,
a godless, evil, wicked. That's what iniquity is, and that's
what sin is. We have become a very sinful people.
The entire world has. When you look, and I know

(29:28):
you do this because I do it too, we all do.
We look online and you see people, these keyboard warriors
spooing out hate. They don't even know you or me
from Adam's cat, but they spoo out hate as though
everything they say is fact and there's no harm, no
foul because they're hiding behind a screen. The same scenario

(29:50):
occurs daily, millions and millions and maybe probably billions of times.
Then you walk out too, society, and you see the
rage that is occurring. People angry, hateful, They have no
respect for life, people, property, or person, particularly no respect
for God. But if you don't have any respect for God,

(30:12):
how can you possibly respect the lesser? How can you
respect people or property or persons? I know people, and
I'm sure you probably have to that show more love
towards an animal than they do a person. Yeah, something,
These are something wrong with that, Michael, something wrong.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
These are all good points, but I'm trying to wrap
my head around this idea of iniquity, and you're saying
that it is like.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Sin, Yeah, sin against God.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
Wait, and I'm thinking there was a time, like I
was about to say, like we passed the Civil Rights
Act in nineteen sixty four, where before that segregation was
legal in the Southern States, and the Supreme Court had
ruled the Separate but Equal, which was a terrible ruling
which this large population in America was allowed to be

(31:00):
treated as second class citizens. Wouldn't that be sin? Like
that seems like grand scale, societal level sin that I agree.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Listen, I agree it is and was and will always
be known.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
So I would agree that the Internet has made people.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Listen to what I'm saying. Though, But these, Michael, these
things that I'm speaking of are happening in our generation.
The Civil Rights Act happened in my generation, but that's
not the only thing that happened. Now. We have the
computer age, the technological age, which has replaced God and
has elevated technology and science to above everything that is

(31:43):
even considered godly. You see, I don't disagree with you
that there's been a lot of ills in society, but
when you look at those ills in society, majority I'm
not saying all of them, but a majority of them
have occurred in this generation that Christ said he would
return in.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
How is that the majority of the ills of society
have happened in this generation?

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Look when? When? When? When the let's take World War two? Right?
When when? Uh, wasn't it World War two? When Germany
and basically fought against the entire world? When they when
they slaughtered six million plus Jews. And that's just the Jews.
That's not the Polish or the Irish or anyone else.
It's just the Jews. So but you have to just.

Speaker 1 (32:26):
View people Jewish people.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
They Here's where I'm going with this. When did that occur? When?
Did when? When did a lot of these tragedies? Were thousands,
hundreds of thousands, millions occurring? It's occurring in this generation.
In the generation you and I are living in, there.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Was genocide and slaughter for throughout time.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
I don't I don't disagree with that, But what I'm
saying is that it's now happening exponentially. It's multiple.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Like the history of Ganghis Khan. They said that they
could see a mountain, a white mountain in the distance
as they approached it, and it turned out to be
the bones of the people that his army had slaughtered,
and they piled them up to the point where it
looked like a distant mountain. There have been slaughters in

(33:20):
genocides for a long.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
Trapper since since Kine slew Able. And if you know
any thing about the Bible, that was the first murder.
Two brothers, one of the same mother father. Out of
any one slew the other Cane slew Able. But I
don't disagree. Listen, You've got a good argument about this
has happened, that has happened. But I'm trying to put
the whole puzzle together and say.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
What a how now is a time of more iniquity
than before. It seems like when you say godless, yes,
the number of people that believe in God is dropping,
but that doesn't make them more sinful necessarily. Now, there's
a lot wrong with the modern world, Billy, and you
and I might agree on some of it. We might

(34:04):
disagree disagree on some of the things that are wrong
with the modern world. But I just I'm not entirely sure.
I see this as this is a special moment when
it comes to that.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
All right, let me give you a few special moments, then, okay, Israel.
Israel was destroyed about the time of Daniel, some twenty
five hundred years ago. And when I say they were destroyed,
the temple was destroyed. They were broken up as a
nation as a people, and that's where they went into Russia,
into Germany and to Poland, and they were just scattered

(34:37):
all abroad. Well, in the sixty sixth chapter of Isaiah,
and I believe it's a thirty seven or thirty eighth
chapter of Ezekiel, God prophesied that he would bring back
Israel in a single day. They would become a nation
in one day. That's never in the history of the
world happened. But this was written twenty five hundred years

(35:01):
ago under Daniel and Ezekiel, which were about the same time.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
Doesn't that happen all the time today?

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, let me tell you, yeah, twenty But listen, twenty
five hundred years in the rear, it was predicted, and
it occurred in May of nineteen forty eight when the
United Nations voted the Israel except Israel as a nation
in one day. That's nineteen forty eight. That's again our
generation twenty five.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
They voted to make countries into a new country.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Since then, It's never happened in one day. Have have
a nation been First of all, this is a fact.
A nation has never been a nation been dissolved and
re evolved as a nation throughout history. What's the exception
of Israel? And Israel has it was prophesied of them

(35:50):
that this would occur? And again this happened in nineteen
forty eight. There are people that are alive today that
were alive in nineteen forty eight. In our generation has
occurred to.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Time the UN votes to accept a new country into
the rural community. It happens in a day. I'm just
saying the day thing. You can say that in July fourth,
seventeen seventy six, the United States of America came into
being in a day when we signed the Declaration of Independence.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
Well, let me, let's get it again. You're an argu're
you're a debater, and I can appreciate that. But I'm
going to say this that Christ said in the twenty
fourth chapter of Matthew. He said, that generation that sees
the return of Israel, the butting of the fig tree,
as prophesied the book of Hoseiah, that generation that sees
these things will not pass away before my return. Now

(36:40):
gave He gave something an in.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Just two quick points, which is when you talk about
the creation of Israel, it's because it was prophesied and
human beings read the prophecy and wanted to fulfill the prophecy.
One can say that that's why it was that it
was because of the prophecy. The prophecy didn't make it happen.
It was the people reading the seat.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Anybody can say. Anybody can say anything, but a group
or a nation of people twenty five hundred years later
have fulfilled what God has said through Jesus Christ and
through many prophets prior to him would occur. So it
really doesn't matter what you or I think. I could
be wrong on many things, and I'm sure I am

(37:21):
you can be wrong on many things. Now I don't
know that you would agree that you are, but I
think you would. Of the matter is yeah. The factor
of the matter is Christ said it, and it didn't change.
It didn't it didn't deviate from what he said. He
didn't have to go on Like I said, he doesn't
have to go into all the ingredients in the recipe.
All he has to do is provide the serving.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
Okay, here's my question, and it's a question that we
will not have an answer to. But at what point
would you say the generation will have passed away since
the formation of That's a.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Really really good question. That's a really good question.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Twenty eight, one hundred years.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, if you know Jesus, I think I as scholars,
that's Bible scholars, which I am not. Bible scholars have
determined or have stated that some believe a generation is
fifty years, some as much as seventy because and this
is biblically based on biblical things that they have said this.
I personally believe a generation personal belief, and it's based

(38:19):
on as you'd like to say, you know, common sense
and knowledge. I like to think the same way. But
I like to think that a generation is as long
as an individual that was born on Day one to
the oldest person that can live. And some we know
that have been one hundred and twenty two hundred and
twenty three years old, one recently died one hundred and
twenty three. I think, so is that considered a generation? Possibly?

(38:42):
The fact of the matter is when a generation Biblically,
when you look at generation, generations are those like you
know that have spawned or had other children. That's a
second generation. They have had children, that's a third generation. Well,
in time frame it could be biblically, according to biblical scholars,
it could be fifty years, be seventy years, and I
personally think it could be as long as what Christ said,

(39:05):
He said, that generation that has witnessed these things shall
live to see my return. Those that have lived in
the nineteen forty eight when they saw Issabe become a nation,
it's now what forty eight, that's fifty two plus twenty five,
seventy seven years. We have a lot of seventy seven
year olds here on this earth. And you know, and

(39:26):
that's another thing you would think about. Prior to a
couple hundred years ago, what was the average lifespan? Fifty
sixty maybe at the most. I remember when there was
a time reading in history where it was thirties and forties.
How can Christ, how can Christ say some two thousand
years ago that a generation would now live far beyond

(39:49):
that he put the things.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
That he spoke, He did say, so let's be clear,
he didn't say that. He just said a generation. He
didn't know that in nineteen forty eight.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
That's well, that's what I'm saying that he didn't know about.
He didn't know because he knew all things. The Bible
says he knows all things from the beginning to the end.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
He's not saying there's going to be a long lived generation.
He said the generation will witness it. He didn't know
that nineteen forty eight Israel would be accepted by the
UN and in twenty twenty five Billy would be saying
the end is near because of Jesus. That's your math,
not Jesus.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
No, no, no, no, I'm not listen. The end doesn't
come because Billy says it. Let's get that first of all,
I never predicted her day and hour. And I know
you know this, Michael, but I want to stress that
to the other listeners. I don't and won't ever predict
a day and hour. We've been full worn and foretold
of that by Christ himself, as well as other apostles
that Jesus said, not even the angels in heaven know

(40:42):
the day to hour. It is only given to God
to know when he's going to send his son back
to come. So that being said, I'm not going to
predict anything but I will say this. I used to
do a broadcast or radio broadcast some twenty plot twenty
thirty years ago, maybe it's called end Times evangelism, and
I used to end the broad cast by telling people
that I assure you that you are living in the

(41:05):
last generation. Now that's almost blasphemous right when you think
about it, because you're saying, you know, you're given a
time frame. But here's where I was going with this
is that in their generation and in our generation, we
are going to die. It will be the end of days,
the end of the world for us in our generation.
So really, in reality, it doesn't matter if it does matter,

(41:28):
but I say this factiously, it doesn't matter if Christ
carries O waits another thousand years before he returns. The
fact of the matter is not going to be here
in a thousand years from now.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
Nor will you.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
But we will be somewhere. Where will we be, according
to the scriptures, will be an eternity, either in heaven
or in hell. We're going to be judged one way
or the other. But judgment, thank God, doesn't occur while
we are alive and we remain. As I mentioned to
your earlier in the Hebrews. It says there's an appointed
time once for man to die, and after this the judgment.

(42:01):
So I'd like to tell people during that time, Christ
tolerates us. God tolerates us. Okay, Bible says his mercy
and darth forever. That doesn't mean he's going to be
merciful forever to all people. It just means he's forever merciful,
and that's his nature. That's why he puts up with
people like us, and that's why it really is and

(42:21):
as relevant to the day of the hour. But I
do see that Christ said in the Matthew twenty four.
He said, when you see all these things begin to happen,
know that I am near, even at the door. And Michael,
I will say this. Let me just end it on
this note. Okay, I'll say this. If you know you
have somebody come into your house at a certain time
right let's say three o'clock, four o'clock, and your house

(42:42):
is a wreck at noon, you only got three hours
to clean up. So you're going to clean up, put
everything up because you know that person is near at
the door. When that person knocks on a door, that
doorbell rings, you better be ready. Jesus said that when
he's gonna call like a thief in the night, and
when he comes, when the thief comes, when you leave
should expect him. So we need to be ready as people.

(43:03):
We need to be ready, Center or Saint, we need
to be ready.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Okay, you're jeff uh this does You did bring up
an interesting point. So you said twenty five years ago,
you used to end the broadcast by saying this generation
will know.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
No I would say, I would end to broadcast by saying,
you're living in the last generation.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
Right, and a lot of the people pay five years ago. Sadly,
assuming there were sixties and seventy year olds listening to
your show, they weren't. They're dead and we're still.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
But that was where I was going. I was being facetious.
That's where I was going that in their generation, they're
going to die. In my generation, I'm gonna die. It's
going to be the end of the world for me.
So really it's not as relevant as the end of
the world as we know it. What matters to me
is if I make it in Kingdom of God. What
matters to you is if you make it in whether
you believe it or not. That's what matters. What matters

(43:52):
to me is if I'm convicted and I am sent
to prison. None of those people that are on the
jury have done the same thing. But whether I go
or I am released, that's what's gonna matter ultimately in
the end. So if I have received a grace of
God and the mercy of God, and the knowledge in
the Word of God through His book, through the Bible,
the Holy Bible, by His Spirit, I can take personally

(44:14):
taking no credit for what I think, or what I believe,
or how I act. All glory is given to God
because He reveals it to whom he will. And the
Bible says God has chosen the weaker things of the world,
the lesser things of the world, as opposed to the
greater things of the world to bring him glory. He said,
it's not the great and the royal and the mighty

(44:36):
who will enter in the cane of God. It's the babe,
because you know, the infant, the child, the babe is
what I have four grandchildren. Thankfully I've only one child,
or she gave me four grandchildren the age from one
to seven. We have two of them downstairs right now.
One of them is just barely over one years old.
And when I hold that child, when I see that
child laugh and smile and play, I think of the

(44:58):
innocence of a child, and sadly, I think that same
innocence will turn to a mass murderer one day, if not,
if not, by the grace of God, it will right So,
but as it's a child, as it's a babe, I
hold that babe. I love that babe, that baby trusted.
I'm gonna feed it, that I'm gonna clothe it, that
I'm gonna house it, I'm gonna change its diaper. That's

(45:21):
how God wants us to come to him trusting. That's
what faith is, trusting, just as that's why Christ said,
if you come on to me, you must come as
a babe, not as all knowing, for you know, all scientific,
theological individual.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
We've created a lot to unpack there, Billy. So if
I may first off the point, but I do see
what you were, how you were signing off with your
radio show now, and I stand corrected there. But what
about all the people throughout time that were as intellectually
honest and religious and Christian as you who read the

(45:59):
Bible and said now is the end? Of times. And
we know this throughout history that people have said these
are the end days. In fact, there have an end
day's Christian cults for the entire two thousand years. Yeah,
well listen, how do you know you're not one of them?

Speaker 2 (46:19):
I don't. I don't.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
They looked at the Bible and they saw the same
things as you are, coming to fruition. It might speak
to the generalities in which these prophecies are written.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Well, they're very specific, Michael, They're very specific.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
But anybody can apply it. Obviously, Seventh day Adventists, we're
sure that the end days are coming.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Twice some people go over the edge, and and and
and I know that you probably know this as well.
And I am quote unquote Facebook friends with people that
claim Christianity, you know, claim to be a Christian, but
they say the most heretic type of things, and there
there's hate that spoos out of them out Now I'm
not questioning, well, maybe I am questioning your Christianity. Not

(47:04):
everyone that claims to be of Christ is of Christ.
When you look, you know, the Twelve Disciples, we had
one heretic Judas you know, there's always going to be
that one. And yes, they're going to be Christians that
are going to name days and hours. Now they're going
to be two groups. I think one of those Christians
that names days and hours is doing so because they're

(47:25):
ignorant of the truth. They don't know what the scriptures
say and how to apply it. They're assuming. That's never
assume anything. You know the acronym for assumption. Well, we
won't go into that, right, you do know the acronym
assumption assume.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
But out of you and me, here you go.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
I never assume anything. Then you have the second category
of people that want to bring in the end times.
They want to they want it to occur for whatever reason.
We won't debate that. Whatever reason they do, they do. I,
on the other hand, I like to separate myself from
either one of them, because they don't want to see

(48:03):
people destroyed. I don't want to see lives destroyed. I
don't even want to see my enemies destroyed. I don't
want that. I want to I personally would like to
see people come to the saving grace and the knowledge
of Jesus Christ, because that is a forever fame. It's

(48:23):
forever according to the scriptures, not necessarily according to our
own finite minds. But according to the scriptures, it's eternal.
And I don't wish eternal damnation, fire and brimstone, weeping
and gnashing of the teeth. I don't wish that on anyone.
But if Christ said it, I believe it. And he
said it. He said it numerous times. He said it

(48:45):
more times than anyone else in the Bible. He spoke
about Hell at least three hundred times in the Gospels,
three hundred times. So I do believe that if he
is who he said, he is, okay. And the one
thing I tell people is that whether you believe in
Christ is the Messiah, you believe him as a prophet,
you believe him as a good man, you believe he
was a heretic, or you don't believe at all. What

(49:07):
Regardless of what you believe, one thing that cannot be done.
You cannot find fault in that man. Therefore, if I
had to trust that, but hold on a thank you, Well, well,
let me let me finish this. If you had to
therefore put your faith or your trust in anyone, so
better to put it in as someone you can't even
find fault in, even as own enemies couldn't find fault.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
I find fault right here and now, and I wanted to.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Find fault in his followers. You don't find fault in him?

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Well no, and I'll tell you why, and I'll get
to the point. I was about to make it a second,
but you've brought this up, and I'll have no choice.
Jesus mentions hell three hundred times. Hell is a deeply
immoral concept. We're talking about finite are infinite punishment for
a finite crime. It's immoral if Jesus brought that up.
I find fault in that.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
If you find fault, do you find fault in a current? Right?
I shouldn't say that because I can find fault in
the two, but use out analogy. That's like saying I
find fault in the justice system. People that rob, steal, rape, pedophile, murder,
they shouldn't be committed to prison because, you know, not
a good place.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Let's start with Rob. You said Rob was the first one?
If you rob? Yeah, okay, what was the first one?

Speaker 2 (50:19):
Well? I did say Rob first. I believe Go ahead Rob.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
Let's say Rob. If you rob, the justice system says
that you go to prison for an appropriate amount of time.
Let's say you steal I don't know, a thousand dollars
worth of clothes from Target. That's going to get you
a couple of months in prison, I imagined, or maybe
a FA in California. In California, Yeah, oh look, don't

(50:41):
get me out of started. I know everybody I talked
to you wants to go after California. I get there.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
I'm still happy that said.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
California is a beautiful state.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
You you you steal twenty thousand dollars from the bank
and you you stuck the place up with a gun.
That's going to get you fifteen years in prison. But
if you went if you went into a bank with
a gun and you held the place up and they
gave you twenty thousand dollars and you walked out and
the cops grabbed you and then they said we're going
to torture you forever for that. You and I would

(51:14):
both be on the same side going no, no, no, no, no, nope, nope, nope,
that is an inappropriate punishment. So the idea that not
only did.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
The course that would be that would be I agree
with you on that sage.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
But what crime are these people committed that Jesus is
going to burn in hell forever?

Speaker 2 (51:29):
Michael, what is your You stop short of where you
should have. What about those who have committed vile acts
upon children or multiple murders? Are they not deserving of
the death penalty?

Speaker 1 (51:41):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Or okay?

Speaker 1 (51:43):
It doesn't No, no, no.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
Time out is a little weird.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
One because I don't believe in hell and I don't
believe in heaven.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
No no, no, I didn't. I didn't ask you about hell.
I asked you to many times.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
And send them to hell. I say, that sucker. That
guy deserves to be punished for what he's done, and
the only punishment we can give him is in life.
Put him in a jail cell forever. Don't kill him,
you know what.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
That's what hell it really is, is like a jail cell. Michael.
You're not going to die by going to hell.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
The punishment don't match up if I'm going to hell
for just nothing in Europeedian, in.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
Your opinion, it doesn't. But in the opinion of a
holy and righteous God who never wanted or desired to
destroy or take a life ever. Ever, even when Adam
and Eve Thiss obeyed God, God had spoke to them
prior and said the day that you eat of the
tree of knowledge in the midst of the garden, the
tree of knowledge of good and evil. We like to

(52:37):
call it the apple. All right, it's not the apple.
What's the tree of knowledge of good and evil? And
that day you will surely die. But he also went
on to say that he would put an advocator, someone
to advocate us, like an attorney, in place of us,
to substitute to take our to take our faults and
present them to God. As God said in his word,

(52:58):
he remembers our frame, that we were only fleshed. Jesus
Christ came and he did that. He intervenes for us.
He gave his life, He was a sacrificial land. He
came Linda's lived a sinless life, so that we, believing
in him could then enter and have eternal life. The
Bible says in the Third chap of John. Here now

(53:19):
is the condemnation, not that we're good or bad, but
because we chose not to believe in Christ as a
son of the only son of God.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
If my crime is I didn't believe in Jesus. You
I know, Billy, I know that you would not say
my punishment should be to be burned and the gnashing
of the teeth forever just for not believing.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
We know each other, well, you know what I'm about believing.
Here's the thing, Michael, about not believing, And I'm not
saying this to you. I'm saying it as having been
a non believer in myself one time. The thing about
non believing is it's like having a set of standards, laws,
moral standards of laws that you abide by versus you
make the rules as you go along. So if you,

(54:09):
if you let me tell you, if you are a believer,
a true believer, you have a set of standards God's Word,
the Holy Scriptures, and you apply them and you don't
just read them, you don't just quote them. You apply
them to your daily life. Granted you're not gonna be perfect,
you're gonna fall short continually, but you're gonna get up
and you can say, Lord, have mercy on me a sinner,
and you can continue to apply them. Versus someone who

(54:31):
doesn't believe. There's a standard and they make up the
rules as they go along, and if it feels good,
do it. Then they're saying I don't believe in God,
I don't believe in Jesus the Messiah. So I'm gonna
do a B C, D, E, F, G, H, I, JK,
et cetera, et cetera. So it's not just then not believing,
it's all the alphabet that comes after it. It's all

(54:53):
the wickedness that follows because they don't have a standard.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Okay, let me ask you this, billy. So let's say
that a person is born with a bad leg. Maybe
it's a little bit short, a bad leg. Yeah, maybe
it's a little bit shorter than the other leg. And
they're walking down the street and because of their bad
leg that they had no control over whatsoever, they kind
of trip and they fall into you, and they shove
you and it hurts, and you look at them and

(55:19):
you say, oh, I see what happened. You have a
bad leg. It's not your fault. You didn't mean to
do that. You know, your punishment should not be for
me to knock your your lights out, or whatever your
reaction would be if somebody does that. So, belief is
not a choice. You don't have a choice choice. You
don't have a choice over belief. I don't have a

(55:39):
choice over belief. I can't tell you to believe something
right now. You don't believe. I don't have a choice
in my belief. I am just as God made me,
and I ask you something I cannot expect. Hold on,
let me get the anology belly.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
You have to stop me because I like to talk
to I don't.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
I cannot believe because my brain won't do it. I
am a skeptical person. The evidence is not there to
believe that these people that wrote this book two thousand
years ago were actually tapped into the creator of the universe.
I can't get there. So, Mike, I am just as
God made me. I've done nothing but live my life
to the best of my ability, and I can't believe.
You can't make somebody believe.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Something I agree with you in the sense listen, I
agree with you.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Is going to be burning in hell forever for something
I didn't do. I'm just as God made me.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
Michael, let me say this. Let me aswer you settled mouthful.
Let me try to address that. Okay, First of all,
I want to start with the beginning with what you said.
You can't believe, but therefore you consider yourself an atheist, yes,
or an agnostic atheist? Uh?

Speaker 1 (56:51):
You know both?

Speaker 2 (56:52):
I can they in the middle. No.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
No, if you look at the actual definitions, you can
be both. You can be you can be an agnostic atheists.
I guess you could definite definitionally speaking, but if you
ought to go with the colloquial, the colloquial definition tends
to be atheist, doesn't believe in God. Agnostic, says, I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
That's right. Yeah, that's that's what is the spectaclobally. But
here's the thing, Michael, and I could be wrong, and
forgive me if I am. But people that are atheists
are agnostic. They choose to be athis atheist or agnostic.
They choose no, no, no, let me, let me, let
me finish. They choose not. They choose not to believe Christ.

(57:35):
That's their choice. Nobody's putting a gun in your head
saying believe, Michael, believe. That's your choice. The scripture says,
choose you this day who you will serve, be it
God or be it the devil. See, there's no in between,
there's no there's there. There's a right, and there's a wrong.
There's a left, and there's a right, and and we

(57:56):
make conscious and sometimes unconscious choices daily, but they're all
our choice. So the fact of the matter is, I
don't think God is going to send you, Michael, to hell,
because you were born the way you were born, and
you're live in a good life. But the Bible does
say this. It says there's none righteous, no, not one
none zero. Take Moses zero, you take Paul the Apostle,

(58:21):
considered the greatest apostle Jesus rice zero well, and the
greatest man the prophet. The greatest man accorded to Jesus
vice was John the Baptist. But yet he said, Jesus
said this, He said that even he said, those that
make it a kingdom of God, the least of the
person that makes it in the Kingdom of God is
greater than he than John the Baptist, who Jesus considered

(58:41):
the greatest man who walk the face of the earth. Now,
the point of the matter is this, is that Paul
the Apostle was what we as Christians know to be
or believe to be. He wrote most of the books
in the New Testament. We believe him to be a
great apostle. But at one time he was a very
devout unbeliever, a very great unbeliever. He went about persecuting

(59:03):
the church, getting warrants to to to arrest and to
destroy and to take the lives.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
And why did he start believing?

Speaker 2 (59:11):
Well, if you read in the Book of Acts, you'll
see that on the road to Damascus, right, that he
was that that that that that he encountered a visual
and a hearing relationship with God. That all the other
people around him heard the voice but couldn't see. Paul
didn't see either. In fact, I don't know if you
know this or not, but Paul was blinded. You know,

(59:32):
there's a song blinded by the Light? Right? It was
literally who was that? Yeah? Like a one hit wonder
of the world, right, but a very good one. But
the fact of the matter is is that Paul was
blinded by the presence of God the light. Couldn't see,
but he could hear, and he was instructed by God
that God chose to use him the same way God

(59:53):
used Moses to be the deliverer. God choose to use
him as a deliverer for the church.

Speaker 1 (59:59):
Really, breezy, is what I say to that, Billy, I said, easy,
breezy to believe in God in that situation. If God
appears in the sky and are you waiting for a light. Michael,
these are terrible examples of this guy who was a
sinner and a non believer, because God appeared to him

(01:00:19):
in the sky and he could hear him. Moses, God
appeared to him. He Moses literally saw God and was
handed tablets written by God.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Michael, how do you guys have all the.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Reason to believe God offered me none of that? He
gave you two two thousand World book.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Two out of billions of Christians, two that we just
mentioned too, right, I personally haven't seen a light, I
haven't heard a voice. I hadn't had anything mystical happened
to me. But what happened to me was a change
of heart. And what the Bible says is that when
you invite Christ into your heart, you made a new creature,
a new creation. The old man passes away. Behold, all

(01:00:59):
things become new. And that's what happens, Michael. It happened
not just to me. It happened to billions of other
Christians that didn't see the light, that didn't hear the voice,
and it could happen to you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
But I was a believer that I grew up believing
in Jesus and It was this skeptical, logical, rational mind
that he gave me that talked me out of it,
and it all started. What really made sense to me
was that all cultures believe in gods, That all cultures
live in.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
Little g believe in a god.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Sure little gu that it is clearly something that the
human condition creates, and we see agency in nature. And
they all have old scriptures and this is just the
one that traditionally I was brought up in. And at
that point I could no longer believe because belief is
not a choice. I could not convince you to believe
that gravity isn't real right now, no matter how much

(01:01:51):
you wanted.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
Why didn't Michael, why didn't you believe that you brought
up You say you have brought up in a Christian environment. Yes,
very well, and I'm not trying to delve into your
personal affairs, But why did you choose not to bring
a sience?

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Not a choice, no choice, But you did do that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
You did do that because you grew up in that environment.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
Believe is not a choice. Name something that you choose
to believe that you actually don't believe.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
You know what, Every four years people go pushing the
button vote for who they think is going to be present.
They believe so and so is gonna win. And sometimes
sometimes they.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Don't have confidence, dream actual belief. If you don't believe
something and I tell you to believe it, you can't
do it, Billy, It's impossible.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
I'll give you another example, Michael, billions. Maybe maybe I'm
exaggerating slightly, but billions of people played the lottery in
hopes of winning. They all honestly think they're gonna win.
You know what. You know what, Michael, I have done
this on more than one occasion. But I can tell
you one occasion where I went to a grocery store
and I'm standing in line and I saw a woman
about to give twenty dollars. He was picking out of

(01:02:58):
tickets and I said, ma'am, I could say the ten
dollars right now, right just second. And she looked at
me in astonishment, said, well can you do that? I said, well,
you're gonna give him twenty dollsorles tickets right, Well, the
chances are you're not going to win anything. Just give
me ten. You'll keep ten or safety ten dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
You are correcting, is that one, Billy?

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
Yeah, you are correct is the point is is that people,
as you said, people choose No.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
No, no, no no no.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
I'm saying, I'm saying people choose to believe. You're saying
they don't choose.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
No, and they don't because what you're talking about is hope.
That woman has hope that if she buys a ticket,
she doesn't believe.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
It's a different screen, hope in choosing to believe.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Because I cannot. You cannot convince me that gravity is
not real under no circumstances while I walk off the
roof of a five store building because I chose to
believe gravity is not real. I don't believe. I believe
gravity is not real, and I cannot choose to believe otherwise.
Belief is all that is.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Michael. I'll give you a reason why I believe that
is not just with you, but with people in general,
me being having been one of them. Is that we
generally tend not to believe what we what is, what
what's not tangible, what we can't touch, feel and see. Right,
And that's kind of scientific. It's only what we can touch,
feel and see. However, that's not true, Okay, Well I

(01:04:18):
said kind of. I didn't say it is my point is.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
My point is this.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
My point is this is that you can't touch the spirit,
the air that keeps you alive in you. You can't
touch that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
Sure it can't. I breathe it in right now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
No, you're breathing in other air. But the air that's
in you. You can't touch, feel of sea. But you
believe that there's oxygen in you. Okay, because whatever reason,
the fact of the matter is, if God's spirit and
you go back to Genesis when he created Adam and Eve,
what's the very first thing he did after he created Adam?
If he formed a matter the dirt of the earth,

(01:04:57):
the Bible says he breathed into into Adam's nosrils the
breath of life, and Adam became a living soul. And
prior to that, God said, let us make man in
our image. And I believe when he said let us
he was talking to his son Jesus Christ, the carpenter's
helper right there with him. Let us make man in

(01:05:17):
our image. He made out him, he created, he breathed
at him, he became a living soul. If God is infinite,
and I'm not going to debate with you, because I
know you don't believe there's a God. But if God
is infinite and he's lived forever, we then have his DNA.
By him breathing it to us, we became a living
soul and we will live forever. Where we live forever
depends on our choice. Again, going back to choose you

(01:05:40):
this day, whom you will serve. It's a choice.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Choice. You cannot believe something you don't believe. That is
not a choice, that said, just when it comes to
the breath inside of being.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
But you choose not to believe, though you choose to
believe other things.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
I can't believe. It's just can.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
You believe in science? Right? You believe? You're very scientific
minded and logical mind, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I'd like to think that I am as well. But
I also know that I don't put all of my
cards in On one hand, I think that there might
be something to that. For instance, when they made this
proclamation that they found this skull of this I don't

(01:06:17):
remember how many thousand year old human being, which proves
the evolution of mankind, And that went on for years
and years and years to eventually they found guess what
that skull remains were? It was the morphed remains of
a skull of an ape that had offritis. So but
for all these years, all these people chose to believe
a lie.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
No no, no, no, no, that's different. That's different. They
actually I don't know anything about this, so I can't
speak to it, but I will say that they believed it.
They didn't choose to believe it, and then with new
evidence they stopped believing it. It's not that they chose
to believe. You can't choose belief. That said better.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Something you're saying God's word is not evident, it's not true.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
I can't believe. I just want to touch on the
air inside me analogy that you gave.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
There are machine everything that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
Can measure the oxygen in my blood, in my lungs.
I can believe in that because it can be measured,
it can be touched. It's not just a mystery. It's
not just a phantom like God. It's something that can
be measured. There's oxygen in my blood, there's oxygen in
my lungs. All those things can be measured. Whether or
not I can touch them, does it matter.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
I want to give you an example, Michael, go ahead.
I want to give you an example because I don't
disagree with you on that note. I don't disagree with you,
but I want to I think it bears repeating. I
said this before on the previous segment that you and
I had, and I'm going to say it again. When
I was about fourteen years old and I was incarcerated falsely,
and I was incarcerated for three years. During that time

(01:07:49):
of incarceration, that used to have a preacher that would
come every Sunday and you'd preach the word of God,
and those that wanted to get out of their cell
would be able to sit in amongst the general populace
and listen, right, and so it was nothing else. It
was to get out of the cell. I was sitting
there an unbeliever, three four years before I got saved,
and the preacher started talking about the virgin birth, and I,

(01:08:10):
from the pew as it were sitting in a chair
fourteen years old, didn't know Dittaly. I hollered out. I
didn't know we're supposed to holler back at him. But
I debated with him. I said, there's no way that
a virgin could bear a child. There's just no way. Now.
In the early seventies and sixties, we didn't know of
any way, so across I didn't my mind didn't know

(01:08:32):
any other way. So I debated that, and he really
he probably came back with some scriptures, but I do
remember the guard shutting me up really quick, but he
probably defended that. But my point is is that now
we're living in a year twenty twenty five, right, and
this has happened long ago, not quite in the nineteen
seventy four. As I recall that, yes, a child can

(01:08:55):
be born of a virgin. It's called artificial insemination. So
if therefore what we thought prior then couldn't happen didn't happen,
wouldn't happen, is happening. It's proving can happen. My point
is this is that, Michael, that what you don't believe
today doesn't make it indisputable. It just means you just

(01:09:16):
don't know yet.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
Hey that and that's a fair point, Billy. Although I
think artificial assemination was at least conceptually being bandied around
by scientists back then, the fact of the matter is
it may have been.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
I'm not going to do. What My point is is
that a with new day.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
With new information comes new conclusions. And if God chooses
to appear to me in the sky or hand me
some tablets that he carved, that would be a different thing.
So I have what I have a question for you
that getting back to the end times thing. Uh, And
I hope it's okay that we use a personal example
from your life that you just met right ahead, but

(01:09:52):
that you just mentioned this beautiful, wonderful grandchild that's about
a year old. Do you think if the end times
came now that that child be robbed of this gift
of life, if they had to just skip it and
go straight to heaven. Don't you think that that would
be wrong? And robbing that beautiful baby would be the
thing that we had And a lot before you get

(01:10:13):
into that, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna ask that you
answer that in the Patreon only section of the show,
if you would, and if you want to hear what
Billy has to say about that, you're gonna have to
go to Dogma Debate dot com and join our Patreon.
You're gonna get the extra along shows like this one.
You're gonna get the extra content. You're gonna be a
part of the conversation on our message boards, that's Dogma
debate dot com. So the question was is a is

(01:10:37):
a baby born today? That is what I guess, raptured
or I'm not sure exactly what version of the End
Times you have