#820 - Charlie Kirk, Drunk Senators & the MAGA Machine: An Insiders Confession

Caroline was a high schooler when she met Charlie Kirk. What came next was years inside the beating heart of the MAGA machine.
On this episode of DOGMA DEBATE, Caroline sits down with Michael Regilio to pull back the curtain on Turning Point USA and the darker truths behind the conservative youth movement.
From wild parties with Republican senators to underage girls being handed alcohol at political events, Caroline exposes the chaos, the hypocrisy — and the real cost of loyalty to the far right.
If you think you know what the MAGA movement looks like from the inside… think again.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson. Hey, I'm Adam, Carolah Gillette. Not
only listening, I'm a guest, I'm.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
A teller, and I am a fourth listener, and I
am the fourth listener, and that must make me at
least the fourth listener.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's Dogma Debate with your host Michael Rigillio. For extra
content and to join the conversation, please head over to
Dogma Debate dot com and join our Patreon And welcome
to what promises to be such a fascinating episode of
Dogma Debate because I have Caroline here. And Caroline, she

(00:37):
worked for Charlie Kirk and Turning Points USA, but she
has turned away from that movement and she's going by
Baby Blue right now online and on TikTok because she's
a brand new Democrat, so to speak, and she's come
to tell us all about it. Caroline, Welcome to Dogma Debate.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to share a
little bit what it was like to be crazy conservative
now turn progressive.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Wow, I mean you're talking. I don't know that. We
were talking a little before the show. I predate, I
think crazy conservative. I was just conservative in high school.
Young Republicans. But that was you as well. I've watched
your tiktoks and that TikTok just to be clear so
people can follow you right here off the bat. That

(01:25):
was baby blue on TikTok?

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Or is there a baby blue dot t X because
I'm in Texas.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
Baby blue dot TX the best place to be a
baby blue. We want a lot of baby blues in Texas.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
There's more than you would think.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, Hey, I mean I know it. I mean I
look at the numbers and I'm like, even in the
reddest states, it's still it's not much more than like
sixty eight percent red and you know the rest blue.
I mean, when people talk about a civil war, I'm like,
there's no dividing line, like we truly are you know,
the melting pot? Like are we just going to be
shooting at our neighbors. It's not going to happen, Like

(02:01):
there can't be one. Every state is just a little
bit more red than blue, or a little bit more
blue than red, so yeah, or.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Barely even more red and they just jerrymannder their way.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Which there's that too, but yeah, So I became politically
active in high school. You became politically and active in
high school, and you were pretty much almost it seems
to me, from what I saw in your videos, almost
immediately brought into the Turning Points world. Is that correct?
Just tell me about what it was like growing up,
how you became a young Conservatives, because most high school
kids don't even think about politics, but I sure did,

(02:34):
and apparently you did as well.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Definitely. I know most high schoolers are normal teenagers and
don't think about politics and don't care about politics. But
I think the community that I grew up in, specifically
my family, I was block walking when I was four
years old. I grew up going to the elections, election

(02:58):
watch parties. I interned or campaigned for Governor Greg Abbott
in twenty fourteen before I vote. So it really was
an easy step for me to get into politics, just
because my family of origin was very plugged into the

(03:18):
political world. My grandparents were RNC delegates, so we were
It was kind of just the default for me to
take that Republican route, and it was a world that
I knew that I could have access to, and so
when I was in high school, I kind of decided, Hey, like,

(03:40):
maybe I'll try this political thing. I've said in one
of my videos that I was your typical, typical teenager,
just looking for validation and belonging. And I knew that
within the Republican Party and the conservative movement generally, they
love young people. So I knew that, hey, like I

(04:02):
can find validation, Like there are people there that would
be excited to have me. So I wouldn't really say
that I was especially fired up about conservative values as
a teenager. I was much more interested in finding a
place of acceptance, and so I got involved with politics.

(04:27):
I started my high school Republicans chapter. And funny story
about that are the debate team that I was a
part of came to our first meeting and planned a
Socialist takeover by voting in their members, and so kind
of got off to a rocky start with my high
school Republicans chapter.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
But the Socialists came to your meeting and tried to
vote in. Yes, they tried to take over with socialism.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, it's really funny. They like flooded our first meeting
with all of their people and they were going to
just vote themselves into like the chapter of like executive positions,
and I was just like, oh, like oh shit, like
oh hell, what do I do.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
That's amazing though, but it just also makes me smile, like,
oh right, high school was so fun.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
High school, Yeah, I was just like it's and I
took it. I took it so seriously. I took it
so seriously. I was devastated and I look back now
and I'm like, that's hilarious, Like that's so funny. And
so it was around that time that I initially met
Charlie Kirk. This was shortly after Turning Point USA was founded,
so he was going around to a lot of larger

(05:37):
Republican organizations. So I was in Harris County in Houston,
so the Harris County Republican Party was is A is
A it's a machine, and so he was fundraising. So
I went and heard him speak, went to a fundraiser
dinner that he and his people were throwing. And that's

(05:58):
where I got sucked in initially because I had these
cool like this cool person, like like they should clips
of him on Fox News. So he's on TV, so
he's legit. And some of his staffers were there who
were just these cool early twenties and so as a
teenager who was awkward and needed validation acceptance, it was

(06:21):
just an easy, easy world to step into when they
invited me into their group. So it didn't didn't take
a lot of thought or convincing. I just stepped right
into it.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, And was that out of this out of your
high school or was there a more central hub that
you had to go to to be a part of
Turning Points USA, or were you like the chapter president
at your high.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
School or so I didn't start a chapter at my
high school because I already had the high school Republicans chapter.
So they kind of team up with already existing So
this was kind of back then. I don't know if
they do this now. I think they're more interesting having
Turning Point chapters now. But back then they would partner

(07:05):
with college Republicans high school Republicans groups and provide at
the time as a voter education now propaganda material and
provide that sort of those resources to educate the students.
And they also would bring the students to Seapack and

(07:27):
DC and which is the Conservative Political Action Conference, which
we describe Oh yeah, i' no.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
It's where we get our best clips and our best
speeches are at Seapack.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yes, quality content for sure, and they so they bring
so at the time. I guess they still do. They
would bring a group of high schoolers and college kids
to go to Seapack and be ambassadors to Seapack of
Turning Point. And so I went when I was seventeen

(08:01):
in high school, and I was like, hell yeah, like
free trip to DC, I'm in And I mean it
was fun, it was cool. So at the time I
thought it was like conservative Super Bowl, Like it was great,
Like I had like stars in my eyes because I
got to see people that I've seen on TV. I

(08:24):
got to see media figures, and I got to feel
important because to have access to these cool, successful people,
I was hoping that some of that cool, successful energy
would kind of rub rub off on me. And so
that was I think a huge draw for a lot
of the high schoolers and young college kids that went

(08:47):
because they got to feel important.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yeah. I'm just curious because I think of sepac nowadays,
was there any protests or anything where there were you're
contemporaries on the other side of the aisle outside protesting.
Did you come across young people saying, hey, what are
you doing?

Speaker 2 (09:08):
Or no?

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Was it back then? Because nowadays I think seatback would
almost certainly have some protesters at it, right.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
No, back then it was it was just it was all.
It was one giant echo chamber. There were no protests,
at least none that I were aware of. There weren't
hecklers that I can remember, and if there were, like
that was maybe like one person. Yeah, so it was

(09:35):
basically just a big party.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
Yeah, it sounds awesome. As I told you before we
started rolling, I attended George HW. Bush's inauguration when I
was sixteen and I was in heaven. I thought it
was awesome, right, Like.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
I thought it was so cool. I mean, I was seventeen.
We didn't have any chaperones. Yeah, so we got to
be like I got to feel like a little mini adult,
which was really cool. But then when you're seventeen and
you get invited to a DC party you have no
business being at, it kind of kind of sheds a
little bit a bit of light on what like, how

(10:12):
how deep did those conservative values actually run?

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah? Absolutely, I mean, and it's so easy to go
because you're like, mom, dad, the President of the United
States invited me to a party? Could I go? They're like, I, cat,
did you get there? And it's not exactly they're not
exactly enforcing the age restrictions on alcohol or anything.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
I was, no, not one bit exactly.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, because they want to keep the young people and
they're like, turn up blind eye, let them drink a beer.
It's no big deal.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah exactly. Yeah, certain media figures buying shots for all
the college Republicans at the bar like wow, oh yeah,
like that was just that was normal, And certain senators
showing up drunk to an event they're supposed to speak at,
like it's great.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Oh do you want I mean, I look this episode.
I want you to dish as much as possible.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
But I know I'm like, I'm like, oh, I want
to name names so bad, but I'm just like, well,
you know, I don't really have time for a defamation suit.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
No, I don't think you do. Okay, so we'll let
that one slide. So so you finish up high school,
you head into college, I'm guessing, and you stick with
Turning Points USA. In fact, I would guess from what
I saw in your videos, you became more active with
Turning Point at that point.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yes, I started the chapter at Texas A and M University,
which now I believe it's a thriving turning Point chapter.
My spring semester of my freshman year, I got hired
as a field staffer for Turning Points, So I went
from being student activist to employee. And so what I

(11:49):
did was I would set up on campus and table
and sign people up for the movement and try to
reach the liberals because obviously Texas any universe see as
a liberal stronghold, but there are there were a lot
of events that we did things with the with the chapter,

(12:11):
and then I went to some other surrounding universities to
encourage them to start chapters as well provide education materials
to the college and college Republicans there. And that was
kind of their activism model at the time, was just
reaching reaching these college kids, getting them on, like getting

(12:36):
their contact infos so that they're in this database and
pushing out pushing out content to them and trying to
bring them into the chapter as well. And Turning Point
would try and also recruit people to go to Sea
pac with them. And then this is around the time
when they started doing their conferences and so before actually

(13:02):
the summer before my freshman year of college, I went
to their first ever Young Women's Leadership Summit, which was
in the suburbs of Chicago at the time. I think
now they do it in Dallas. It's a huge, huge
conference in Dallas. But really a lot of it was
just trying to I guess, normalize and just make the

(13:27):
default option of being a conservative much more appealing to people, because,
like you said, like when you're in college and high school, like, okay, politics,
You're not worried about that. You're worried about going to
a football game and like being like going to like
a date party or something. So getting involved in political
activism sounds really lame, but.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Even more so on the college campus, where obviously universities
do have more of a liberal bent than most places.
I would say, uh, and I will say that, I mean,
off the top of my head, I'm thinking, and you
guys did an amazing job though, I mean, you really
created a movement in young Republicans. I mean it's a

(14:12):
thing now. I mean it may very well have won
Donald Trump the election last time around. Was the young
bros that went Trump way yep.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
And that haunts me. That haunts me, and that's I mean,
that's why I'm trying to shed more light on that.
They've done a really good job at taking the playbook
from other organizations that have done youth and doctrination and
youth voter education for decades, but they've made it much

(14:43):
more flashy and much more culturally relevant. So rather than
being like, do you want to be a politician one day,
it's more like, hey, like we can all agree that
like lives are stupid, right, Yeah, Like it's much It's
just much more, much more digestible and accessible than it

(15:06):
ever has been before.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
I'm thinking of like, and I'm curious. I'm guessing you
had some converts. You said you would set up booths
on campus and whatnot. I'm thinking of one of my
friends who's a Mormon that I've had on the show,
who had to do a year of missionary work, and
I asked him, I was like, did you convert anybody?
You knocked on a ten thousand doors, you had twenty
thousand conversations, did you convert anybody? And he said, no,

(15:32):
not a one tough sell the Mormon thing. But you guys,
on the other hand, clearly had a bunch of converts.
Do you are you personally responsible for some people walking
around out there right now with maga hats on?

Speaker 2 (15:47):
I mean, probably, probably indirectly because at the time it
was much less MAGA. At the time, Turning Point was
much more focused on just fiscal responsibilit and limited government. Period.
Charlie was like, don't talk about the social issues. That's
what divides people. That's why liberals win, which we know

(16:08):
isn't true, but like it was those those two issues.
So we made it super oversimplified and easily digestible, and
that's how that's how like we're able to get people.
And I don't know if I'd use the word convert,
because I actually don't think that I we converted many
people from liberal to conservative because if you're a young adult,

(16:31):
if you're like eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two,
and you are calling yourself a liberal or a progressive,
like you already have those views in your head. The
focus with tabling on college campuses was instead to get
that low hanging fruit, those people whose parents may have
watched Fox News, so it was already kind of like

(16:53):
in the back of these kids' mind, like that that
is what what you do, that's what is normal. So
well that was much more, much more effective in terms
of building building the ranks. With Turning Point than necessarily
trying to debate debate libs on campus.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
But there had to have been some libs that saw
your turning points USA booth and wanted to come up
and engage you. That had to have been something of
a normal occurrence.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
I mean a fear amount. Texas A and M is
a very conservative campus though. Yeah, so I think that
there were probably other field staffers at more liberal universities
that had that experience much more, But at Mine, it
was really just kind of like you were recruiting people
for a party because they already agreed with.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
You, and kind of literally recording people for a party
because that is part of the appeal and that they
that any group that's trying to grow itself, particularly with
young people, is is that maybe this person is socially awkward,
maybe this person isn't popular, and what you're really selling
them is pizza party every Friday night, and you know
a group of friends and people that are going to

(18:05):
text you and see what you're up to and things
to do. And I think that very often that is
a selling point. It was, I mean, it kind of
was for me. How I fell into the Young Republicans
was pizza parties and donuts and coffee a coffee, Oh
you got okay, grown up stuff.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Right exactly. I think that that's a you're hitting the
nail on the head with that for sure. That it
wasn't just like, hey, we're going to like join the movement.
Let's learn about like physical conservatism and that's that's real fun. No,
it was much more like, hey, like we believe in this,
but we also hang out and like how like do

(18:44):
these things together, and we like just we're like minded people.
And it was certainly there's a huge social aspect to it,
like in that I think that Turning Point did a
really good job of combining the social aspect that was
really prevalent with like college Republicans, and then the actual

(19:06):
voter education aspect that was involved like part of the
leadership institute in that kind of organization, kind of fusing
those together to create this cultural social ecosystem where you
don't have to leave this echo chamber to go hang

(19:28):
out with people. You can hang out with people within
the echo chamber, and it's also going to continue to
confirm what you're being told that you should believe absolutely.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
And I'm just curious who was funding Turning Point at
that time. It seems like that might have been era
of when that all that coke money was going around.
And I don't mean cocaine, I mean coke Brothers.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
I didn't work in the fundraising for Turning Point, so
I don't know specifically, specif tifically what donors beyond some
of the early backers that were like millionaires like Foster Freeze,
who is a big early backer of Turning Point, as

(20:13):
well as U Line that was another big one. But
back back at that point, they already had these big
money donors pushing and like backing them. So I think
there probably were some like smaller donors, but I think
they had some big fish pretty early on.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, now I'll just talk about my personal experience, and
it actually kind of started at the inauguration that I
went to was the first time, because you know, young
Republicans in Marblehead, Massachusetts. It was five dudes and they
were my friends, you know. So when we became then
exposed to this much larger group of Republicans was the
first time that I saw some ugliness. And it's actually

(20:56):
one of what started turning me away from the conservative movement,
particularly you know, against gay people. You know, get a
couple of drinks and people at a conservative Republican party,
and a lot of slurs started coming out. Now, this
was for me, was late eighties. So, and I've said

(21:20):
this many times, I don't believe most Republicans are racist
as much. I mean, Trump supporters, that's one thing. There's
a contingency, But when we're talking about Republicans, I don't
believe that. But at this time I was also hearing
racist things. I was hearing racist things. I was hearing
homophobic things. And I was, you know, a young guy.

(21:40):
It was the late eighties. These were not these were
not These weren't things that I was into. I was
into punk rock music, and you.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Know, I think it's more punk than Republicans for sure.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah. And there was no gay bashing or racism. We
hated that stuff, you know, but I started to see
it at that time. Was there an ugly underside to
the movement that you were witnessing at that time as well?

Speaker 2 (22:08):
I think so. And I think that I even encountered
that before I got involved with Turning Point, because in Texas,
this was when the Tea Party was really starting. The
hyper hyper conservative contingent within the Republican Party. So I
think there was starting to be that stronger rhetoric of

(22:31):
anti immigrant that was really really starting at that point
when I went to Sea Pack. I think that the
focus at the time, especially with Turning Point and from
a lot of speakers, was building a big conservative tent,
and so there wasn't a lot of that, a lot
of that language that I think we would probably be

(22:54):
more likely to see now actually than we would back then.
So I went in twenty fifteen to Seapack, and this
was kind of leading into leading up to and into primaries.
Like we're the primary campaigning season, so not quite primaries yet,

(23:15):
but this is when you started to hear a little
bit more about Donald Trump. Yeah, And so like he was,
he was at Seapack. Anyone who wanted to run under
the Republican ticket was at Seapac and speaking making their case.
And so there were those typical statesman politician Republicans.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
That was the era of Jeb Bush when he was
the chosen one.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Exactly exactly. And I'll never forget one time, the first time,
the first time I ever met Charlie Kirk, he said,
the era of the statesman is over. Wow, And this
was in twenty fourteen, and I was just like kind
of confused about that. I understood it from the since I'm like, well, like, yeah,

(24:03):
people want to be engaged, like people want like someone
exciting and fresh, but I don't quite think I understood
the implications of that and that he was. What he
was saying is that people want to be entertained. People
want to be entertained and fired up. They don't want policy,

(24:24):
they want simple, bite size talking points. And so fast
forward a little bit to twenty sixteen for the vibes.
For lack of a better word, we're so different at Seedpac.
From twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen is when there was

(24:45):
that shift, that that dangerous undercurrent really coming to the
surface and the Republican Party. And so the summer of
twenty sixteen I remember because I like you, I I
wasn't a racist. I didn't hate immigrants. I was a

(25:05):
theater kid. I didn't hate gay people. It wasn't it
was never. That was never a part of it for me.
And so that's why Turning Point was attractive to me,
because Charlie said, no social issues, just fiscal responsibility in
limited government. Because I didn't understand why gay marriage was wrong,
and I didn't understand why abortion should be illegal. But

(25:25):
what I could get behind was this super milk toast
milk toast fiscal policy, Like I could do that. But
then in twenty sixteen, when I was living with a
bunch of turning point people outside of Chicago in the
Liberty House is what we called it, we went to
get tex mechs one day and a bunch of people,

(25:49):
a bunch of my roommates, put on their Maga hats
to go to this tex Mex restaurant. And this was
in the height of the build the Wall sort of
refrain that you heard from the right, and I just
remember feeling sick because I was just like, Okay, you
can be pro strong borders, but what you're doing right

(26:11):
now by wearing that hat here into this tex Mex
restaurant in the suburbs of Chicago, you are actively threatening
these people, like you are trying to intimidate them by
wearing that. And that was a really key moment for me,
when there was that dichotomy of like, wait, I thought

(26:32):
we were supposed to be like for people, for people
who are Americans, because these are people in America too,
and I just could not. That's what kind of started
to break the veneer for me.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Interesting and I will say that from my point of view,
from my fascination with the conservative movement my entire life,
what they wanted was what the entire movement actually runs on,
which isn't money. They run on liberal tiers. This is
they are trying, they are mining for liberal tears. I mean,

(27:09):
it is it just it's everything to them. They like
upsetting people. They want exactly to freak out and that
maga hat. You know, I've had dudes walk up to
me in Los Angeles and say to me, what do
you think of my hat? It's like who does that?
But you know he's like, I'm out looking for trouble
and you physically weak, which I am. I'm not afraid

(27:33):
of you, but you look like a super liberal.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
So yeah, it's it's it's crazy. And I mean, even
back then, like that was a huge, huge part of
it was being contrarian and being a provocteur for no
reason other than owning the lives. And that was I
think that the element, that element of nastiness also stuck

(27:58):
out to me. You know, something that I was never
comfortable with I never, I never, like anytime I'd kind
of get into that sort of combative, aggressively anti liberal
like stance, It just it never felt felt right to me.
It just wasn't something that I was interested in. But
I was told like, this is what we do, like

(28:21):
we're here, like when you fight the Libs, like it
shows just how weak they are, and when in reality,
it's just a stupid game to make it seem like
you're actually doing something important and actually making a point,
which you aren't because you're not able to make a
point because turning point doesn't actually teach policy and like

(28:46):
fundamental understanding of their policies. They just tell you what
to say.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, I mean I I'm one of these crazy liberals
that like seeks out conservative media always have been. I
remember listening to Rush Limbaugh back in the day and
people calling in and saying, Rush, I just want to
thank you so much for teaching me what to think,
and I was like, that is not a means yeah,

(29:12):
that is not a compliment.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
Well, I mean that was That was so that was
so key because especially as a young person, and I
talked about this in one of my videos, where all
I wanted was acceptance and to be a part of
the group if I like this. This is a kind
of group that punishes descent and punishes actual debate, because

(29:35):
if you disagree with what they're saying, suddenly you're out
and then you're like the conservative eyer turns its eye
on you. And it's not like it doesn't it doesn't
allow for critical thinking. It just wants you to pair
it back what they're telling you to believe. And so

(29:58):
when I was eighteen nineteen, teen twenty, I did not
have some complicated understanding of conservative policies, so I couldn't
form my own talking points. So I just would like
consume conservative media and consume turning point content so that
I would be able to hold my own in a debate,

(30:20):
so that I would be able to talk about what
I believed in in an articulate way, and so I
could be like Charlie Kirk. And that was something that
really drove me, was I want to be the smart
one that champions the values, but not actually put in

(30:41):
the legwork to understand what I'm talking about. And I
think that that's another problem with the whole owning the
Libs mentality, is that the focus is placed on making
other people look foolish rather than actually understanding what you're
claiming to be champion.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah, and you know, I don't think Charlie is as
guilty as of this as Stephen Crowder, but I'm always
so unimpressed that he preps for a subject. Then he
goes out in public, puts out a table saying change
my mind on this issue, invites really young people, often
under twenty, to, without any prep come and debate him
on an issue that he's prepared for, and then he

(31:23):
considers that owning the Libs. So he's like, why don't
you go debate, you know, a policymaker on that issue
and see how well you do rather than a random
seventeen year old with a Jerry Garcia T shirt on exactly?

Speaker 2 (31:38):
Like what what are you actually accomplishing there other than
getting clicks on your monetized YouTube channel?

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Exactly. So at this point Trump is the candidate. Now
your interurning points, USA, is this when did you find
your own turning point? Is this when things started to
get ugly for you? I'm interested about the inner workings.
I'm interested about Charlie Kirk As you know, I a
try and be as open minded as I can. And
when I see Charlie Kirk, I don't see an evil

(32:06):
person necessarily. I could be wrong. Maybe you'll fill me in,
but you know, there's certain people on the right that
I'm like, I don't think I could stand to be
in a room with that person, And Charlie doesn't give
me that vibe. It feels like I could have a
beer with him. I don't know if he drinks, but
I could have a beer with him and have a conversation.
Am I am? I correct in that one.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Like the Charlie that I see now, I didn't know
him super super well. I wasn't I wasn't one of
the inner circle core people, so I wasn't super close
with him and the inner circle people. I was more
of an employee, like foot soldier. But I always regarded
Charlie as being very level headed and being very genuine,

(32:51):
and he was very kind and like fun to fun
to hang out with. And so I was always kind
of intimidated because I was like successful person, like just
kind of like ah, But I I always I always
felt like he was a good person. I never I
never thought that he would get behind someone like Trump,

(33:17):
because back when Trump was before Trump was the the
candidate for the right, he wasn't, don't. I can't recall
who Charlie's pick was to be the candidate, but it
wasn't Trump, like he used to be like a never Trumper.

(33:37):
And so after I left was when he kind of
like like locked in on drump Ism because I mean
it was an attractive, an attractive path to power.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
I think, yeah, it's the precious. I mean, power is
the precious, and Donald Trump is that. With the Republican Party,
they were all never Trumps. Jd Vance said he might
be America's Vex Hitler, but the precious, the precious golden
ring of power. It's just too alluring probably to human
beings in general, like right, and I clearly to the

(34:18):
Republican Party.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, And I'll admit sometimes like I'll catch myself thinking like, oh, Caroline,
like why did you why did you exit when you did?
Like you could have been one of these inner circle
people like there, Like you could have gone to DC
because Turning Point and organizations like Turning Point, like Leadership
Institute or others, they'll like they'll platform you, they'll set

(34:43):
you up and place you in these roots like rooms
where decisions are made and so like out for like
a while, I would catch myself being like, oh did
I like, did I screw up by having values and
having conviction? Because I'm like, well, I kind of joke

(35:05):
with my friends and like my husband that I look
at Caroline Lovett, who's the press secretary, Well we know
and love her so much, and I'm like, that's like
dark Caroline, Like that's like what could have been? What
could have been?

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, you guys are probably roughly the same age.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, she's a year a year younger than me.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Wow, and you're you're an attorney as well. I mean, yeah,
could you could have been the press secretary for the president.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Of the other which scares me to heck about who
is running our country? Yeah, for sure, but yeah I did.
I never thought that Charlie was was evil, you know, never.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
I know there's a question and I I've watched your
videos and if you're covering four and I use I
always tell people that come on the show, this isn't TikTok.
You don't have to use yeah, you know, euphemisms for anything.
So if you're covering for a child sex ring, I
don't know that you're a good person anymore. And Charlie

(36:08):
is certainly, in my opinion, like, wow, the evidence is
mounting and it's getting real close to the point where
we can say conclusively, Okay, now you're covering for a
child sex ring.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Like right. Well, A couple of things on that I
think that I've given this a lot of thought of
is like, does Charlie believe what he's saying? Does he
believe a word that comes out of his mouth? And
I don't know because I don't know him anymore. Obviously,
I haven't talked to him in years. So on one hand, Okay,

(36:42):
he believes everything he's saying. He totally believes in like racism,
women should just be mothers, shouldn't have degrees and careers
like all that.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Like was that ever talked about back in the old days?

Speaker 2 (36:55):
No? Yeah, I was, no, not at all. They did
try to get me to drop.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
Out of college, really why.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
To work full time for them?

Speaker 1 (37:06):
Okay, but not because women shouldn't be it, not because
women shouldn't be in college.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
But I'm like, well, I'm like, was that also in
the back of their mind too? But so he either
believes these things that he touts or he doesn't believe
a word he's saying, but he uses his platform to
say it anyway because that's what gives him power. So
I don't know, like, I don't know which is worse. Necessarily,

(37:33):
I would say this side is worse that to say
these inflammatory and bad, evil things without believing them, just
to row people up. But if he believes these things
he's saying, I also don't think you're a good person.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
So it's pretty bad either way.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Like you're in it, buddy, like you're they're like, either way,
it's bad. And so the point about covering up for
a child's next ring, Let me let me tell you
a story about when I was seventeen at Seapack.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Oh so wow, when I.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
Yeah, I yeah, I've like so when I was seventeen,
I had like never never drank before. I wasn't a
cool kid. I never like, I didn't go to parties.
I was kind of awkward. And so I go to
Seapack and I'm a high schooler. Turning point brings all
these high school and college students and not like super monitored,

(38:33):
and there's these politicians and there's these media figures and
all of these all of these adults who so like
have access to these college and high school kids. So
me and two other girls they were in college, we
got invited to a party. And so I'm seventeen. We

(38:55):
go to this party and it's in like a penthouse
suite like way up fancy, fancy, and then they're in
near a hotel. And this was like a you turn
in your phone kind of party.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
WHOA.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
So you at the door, there's like a like bouncer,
turn in your phone, like go inside, and I was
just like, oh my gosh, I'm at a party, like wow,
and there's there were there's at least one senator there.
There was several people you'd recognize from Fox News, and

(39:32):
then just other people that I didn't know who were
just probably within that world. And there were not like
other young people there, like this wasn't like a party
thrown for miners or for college kids.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
So what haunts me to this day is that in retrospect,
none of them even bad an I at a seventeen
year old being there that was not like that did
not raise me, Like they let me in like I

(40:12):
was clearly not like old enough to be around alcohol
and certain drugs Like that was not.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
You could barely get into a rated R movie at seventeen,
like you were, thank you.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
Thank you, And so I won't go into like too many,
like too many details, but like this was clearly not
the first time that they'd seen like a seventeen year old.
So I truly believe when everything everything on the right
that they accuse people of is.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
An admission, it's projection.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
And the call is coming from inside the house with
grooming young people, whether it's through indoctrinating them ideologically or
making young people accessible to people in power who don't
have to play by the roles. So thankfully, like nothing
happened to me, Like I just had a bad night

(41:08):
because I'd never drank before, so I didn't know how to.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
And so it's just also super creepy that you would
let a young woman drink alcohol for the first time
and become inebriated for the first time, because that is
an incredibly vulnerable time for anybody, the first time you
get drunk and you don't realize that you've lost inhibitions

(41:33):
that you don't realize it just you just feel, you
know different, but you don't realize, hey, I got it.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
You don't know what you can handle you don't know
like how you're feeling. So thankfully, like the girls, I
was like, okay, she's got to go. So they got
me back to the hotel room. But there were there
were a couple of people there who are like, no,
she's fine, Like she's fine.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Yeah, oh man, look out for the dude saying she
that the drunk girl's fine, she's fine.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
It's like, oh, buddy, you're not fine, like you you
are the wolf of sheets clothing for sure. Yeah, so
I think about I think about that a lot, especially
with all the Jeffrey.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
Epstein stuff and the stuff.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yeah, like all oh, for sure that was after my time.
But then there's there were other people like there would
be these like speakers that would come to these conferences
who were like you would see them on Fox News,
but they also would be chatting up all the girls
at the conference and stuff, and I'm like, these are
these are children? Like what are you doing? Like it's

(42:39):
the calls coming from inside the house.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
For sure, absolutely, Which does get me back to so
what was the how did it How did things change
for you? How did you what what was it like
when you decided that this wasn't the movement that you
believed in anymore? And how did you get out?

Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah? I I mean, like I said, like I told
that story with red hats at the text mex place.
It sounds super simple, but that that really did kind
of crack the veneer for me because I was, like,
it kind of shed a little bit light on why
are we doing this? Are we doing all this to
be to fight for a better future, or are we

(43:17):
doing this to be hateful to people who don't look
like us? And so after that point I was a
little bit more on guard to what was being told
to me. And then I ended up working after that
summer full time in their media, so I uh was

(43:38):
the like operations manager of their online news publication, so
I handled a lot of the content that would be
pushed out by Turning Point.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
And after seeing was this before Charlie's podcast or.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
Was this just in addition to this, was before there
were podcasts and stuff? I think I think you might
have had like YouTube or something, but this this was
so early on it wasn't as quite quite as much
of a content machine as it is now, and so
they weren't like podcasts like we'd put out those stupid
like meme videos and whatever, and the like inflammatory articles

(44:17):
about like liberal colleges trying to silence conservatives on campus
and push out that kind of stuff that would get
old people scared and upset and shared on Facebook. And
so seeing that the upping the ante of the like

(44:39):
just the intensity of the political moment was the priority
over actual reporting and actual like pushing out actually quality content,
really kind about.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
Fakes, I mean what we call fake news or made
up news or whatever. Was there some of that going
on or was there some quality control where you wouldn't
push that it was actually totally fake?

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Yeah, there wasn't any of that to my knowledge. I
would I would most of the content would go through
me and or like another editor, and I never never
was told to post like fake articles or anything like that.
So all of it was founded in reality. I think

(45:24):
that sometimes it was presented in a light that was
that had a much more of an inflammatory slant. But
I don't necessarily think that there was any actual fake
content going out. I think that at the time, the
website and the content machine was trying to be like

(45:47):
the conservative answer to like BuzzFeed or Vice, rather than
just trying to put out fake fake news to rile
people up. So I definitely didn't didn't see that, but
I started to like kind of realize like, oh, like
there's clearly an agenda here, like there there's an agenda here,

(46:08):
like and it made me think like, Okay, if I'm
putting out content with an agenda, then what other platforms
are putting out content with an agenda? Because I took
Fox News as bible fact, like I would watch like
Fox News and be like, yeah, like this is it,
like this is the truth or like The Blaze with

(46:32):
like Glenn Beck or whatever like that kind of stuff.
Like I would just be like, yeah, for sure. And
then I kind of realized, like, wait, are they doing
the same thing that I'm doing? And again that was
another crack and the facade for me starting to realize like, oh, actually,

(46:54):
like I'm being lied to, like I'm being duped actively
by the right way political machine, and at the same time,
that same right wing political machine is telling me that
the left is trying to trick me, and the left
is trying to dupe me and lie to me, all
under the guise of this political elite trying to fight

(47:17):
and dismantle America. And so seeing through starting to see
through that and kind of like I kind of aiken
it to taking off, Like I was seeing through red,
white and blue colored glasses. I like took them off,
and I realized, oh, shoot, like this is all all

(47:37):
a facade. It's almost like it's the I got like
the opposite of getting red pilled, because when they're their analogy,
getting red pilled like like you can see how the
world works, and I'm like, no, that's not it at all.
And so that's when I started to kind of dismantle
that that ideology that to become completely baked into my brain.

(48:01):
And it didn't take long. Like the more I just
kind of pulled the threads of everything they claimed was true,
the more it unraveled. And that set me down my
path of deprogramming essentially. Unfortunately, at this time, I was
in college. I was studying political science, and I was
learning how the world actually works, not in the republican fantasy,

(48:25):
since I was learning how actual policy is made and
how the government actually works, especially internationally, and so seeing
the truth in that from professors at Texas A and
M University who are very objective. Is at the Bush School,
It's not like it's the Karl Marx School of policy,

(48:47):
like it's very it's very objective and good like good
quality education. So that's what helped me to deprogram and
learn learn about the real world for the first time
in my life.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
You decided you didn't want a government so small you
could drown it in a bathtub.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yeah, I guess not. I guess I believe that Americans
deserve better than starving and not having healthcare.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
And so I guess that ultimately was where your journey
did take you though, is that you didn't just realize
that there was a lot of bs on the right,
but you actually found that you probably aligned better with
the left, and that's where you are now. Why you
are baby Blue.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
It took a long time for me to I kind
of liken it too. I had to come out to
myself as a liberal. Wow, I had. I had to
admit to myself that, like, oh shoot, like I like
I think I'm a liberal, And the implications of that
were just ginormous because like, I can't tell my family,

(49:56):
like I can't tell my family that, wow, I can't
like I can't tell my friends, like am I still
a Christian? Like? Am I not going to be saved? Now?
If I vote Democrat. So the unraveling didn't stop there.
It didn't stop with trying to like all of a sudden,

(50:16):
I was like wearing a like pink Women's March hat,
like marching like liberal activists. It was much more internal
because I had genuinely been raised to believe that Democrats
and liberals hate America and are trying to ruin our country,
like I thought liberals were either evil or stupid. Wow,

(50:40):
And so to realize that that had been a lie too,
I had to really confront what did that mean for me?
And it was it was a really long time before
I actually would call myself a liberal, like I don't think,
I don't think. I voted in twenty eighteen. In twenty twenty,

(51:01):
I voted for Joe Biden, and I remember that that
was the first time I'd ever voted for a Democrat.
And then it really it really became more something I
owned at that point. But it took years to actually

(51:22):
admit to myself because it wasn't even just like, oh,
I was wrong, like I've learned new information. I changed
my mind. It was I was tricked. And you hear
about like why do people not leave cults? Because they
don't want to admit that the way that they view
the world is a lie. And I think that that's

(51:45):
the fundamental thing with these conservatives who were realizing that
they've been tricked by this machine, is that you have
to admit to yourself, Hey, I was duped and that
was by design, but there is a path forward. And
so I ended up like eventually, like my family does

(52:07):
know now that I'm more liberal, but that doesn't They're
not okay with it. Yeah. I mean a family member
very close to me, we use the word disgusting. Wow,
And like my family is not accepting of it whatsoever. Fortunately,

(52:33):
I have two sisters and a brother. Both my sisters
are pretty pretty liberal as well. I think that they
saw me go through the conservative machine kind of be like, oh,
like what is this and saw me have like my awakening,
and they also decided for themselves what they wanted to

(52:55):
believe in. I think we're all me and my family
were all pretty justice minded and so so kind of
especially after George Floyd that really woke up something in
me and my sisters as well.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
Interesting, you did mention that you know, democrats are going
to hell, and am I even a Christian anymore if
I am. I mean, it seems to me that Christian
nationalism and the modern MAGA movement are one, and Charlie
Kirk seems to be a pretty loud and proud Christian nationalist.
Did you come across anybody in the movement that wasn't
also simultaneously, I mean back when you started, probably just

(53:35):
Christian before Christian nationalism as we understand it now exists.
But is it all just one thing? The then diagrams
just a circle.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
I think it's a circle at this point, which is
so scary because when you do fuse that religion with
political views, that's how you get the Crusades. That's not
that's that's the danger. That's the dangerous fusion that we're
dealing with here. It's not just like a cultural like,

(54:07):
oh well, I'm a Christian and I vote like vote
read like it's it's much more dangerous than that, because
when you're on a mission from God, you play by
a different rule book. And so I think the rise
of Christian nationalism has just been such an insidious part
to getting us where we are right now. And it's
completely completely by design because you see the heritage foundation

(54:30):
everything is all about a biblical worldview.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
I mean, yeah, Project twenty twenty five lays it out
pretty straight, and Russell Vote is the architect and he's
high ranking official in the Trump desmastration.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Now exactly, it's completely completely by design. After I left
Turning Point, they had a branch that they called TPUSA Faith.
And so I don't think this is super well known
because I don't think it ended up being a super
successful I just don't know what's become of it. But

(55:06):
they would hire staffers to go to churches and essentially
tell like people at these churches, like you have to
vote Republican, like Jesus would be a Republican. Jesus would
like be a conservative, like to save America from like
the liberals. The liberals want to like persecute you as
a Christian, and like completely exploited that Christian conservative fusion.

(55:35):
And I think that's where the Christian nationalism has really
really reared its ugly head, and it's in a very
scary way because I think I genuinely think some people
in my family question my salvation. I'm still a Christian,
and so I think there are people in my family
that question my salvation and question whether I actually am

(55:56):
a Christian just because I vote for someone with a
D next to their name, a.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
Guy, look I got I'm not a huge Joe Biden
fan right now, but a guy with the D next
to his name who legitimately prayed every day and went
to church, not in a phony politician way. Joe Biden.
All the things you could say about him was he
was a devout Catholic. I know, I grew up a
devout Catholic, and I know one when I see one,

(56:24):
and Joe Biden a trillion times more Christian than Donald
Trump easily.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
Yeah, exactly. He didn't have an affair with porn.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Star no, no, yeah, or whatever other shady doings we got, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
He yeah, exactly. Like he's a mut Like he doesn't
say what was it two Corinthians when he's trying to.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
Get sure, So like the whole Paul of Wax right there,
right two Corinthians, you know what I mean? Right, hilarious,
But you know, this kind of gets me to where
I'm I wrote to you that I wanted to talk about.
Hope is their hope. You've been on the inside, your
family members are still on the inside of this movement.

(57:13):
It seems like it's getting uglier and uglier every day,
and I don't believe it's a democratic movement at all
anymore as Heritage Foundation and Christian nationalism. I think they
would gladly replace our democracy with a theocratic fascist regime
of some sort. And the thing about fascists is the

(57:34):
best way to stop them is don't give them power,
because once they got it, taken it away from them
next to impossible. I'm talking to a political science major.
It's nothing you don't know. But yeah, so I'm asking
you from me because I don't have a lot of hope.
Is their hope you fell away, you changed your mind

(57:57):
on this movement.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Yeah, I think your point about just the willingness of
the right to seed power to someone who's so power
hungry is what's really scary. I think what scares me
the most is that you wouldn't see an executive consolidating

(58:21):
power this much if he ever thought someone on the
other side would have power. Again, Yep, that's what terrifies
me to my core. So that from that just political
governance standpoint, that's what pushes back against hope for me.
But what does give me hope is that after I

(58:43):
made my first TikTok I've had. I mean, at this point,
I would say hundreds probably people commenting or messaging me saying, hey,
I used to be a conservative and now like I
saw the light and I'm out. So I there's there
are people that do see the light. And one thing

(59:06):
that really really gave me hope is the more than
I think over like probably ten or eleven fellow former
Turning Point staffers who have reached out to me and said, hey,
I know that this was a scam, like and I like,

(59:26):
thank you for speaking out, like I got out. Now
I'm a progressive or now I'm a Democrat. So there
are there are people that are waking up. And I
think that getting the message out that liberals aren't that scary.
Liberals literally aren't that scary. It's not it's really it's

(59:49):
not that serious. It is that serious, but it's also
not that serious to say that you're that you value
human dignity and other people getting that message out that
there is a path forward. Like if you are having
doubts about the world that we live in, that's okay,

(01:00:11):
because honestly, if you if your ideology were solid, they
should be able to withstand your doubting. So let yourself doubt,
let yourself explore the nitty gritty of this platform that
you're supporting, and really decide if that's something you align with.
If you align with people with children being ripped from

(01:00:33):
their mothers just because their skin is a different color
and sent to a country that they've never been to before, Like,
is that are those the values that you want to support?
Like do you support women dying in an emergency room
because they don't have reproductive care? Like that's the world
you want to live in? And if you say yes? Sure?

(01:00:54):
Like if you can honestly say that you are okay
with someone who's lived in this country for decades being
deported to a country they haven't been to since they
were eight years old, Like, if that's something that you
can get on board with, fine, Like be true to yourself.
I fundamentally disagree, but hey, if you can honestly look

(01:01:18):
in the mirror and sleep at night, like, I can't
save you if you believe that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Sadly many do believe them that. But we live in
a country where it's the margins that determine who our
leaders are and what government we have. And you don't
need to convert forty six percent of the country. You
just need to convert two percent of the country. And
that's that exactly. I think that sadly assumes we're going
to have another fair election in this country, right, that

(01:01:45):
is an assumption I'm willing to make. I had a
Trump supporter on two weeks ago and he said, oh, dude,
you're just making it up that Trump won't give up power.
I'm like, he tried to hang on last time. Did
you not notice the Capitol being stored?

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Now he has, Like now he's turning Ice into his
own personal police force. So I also like share those
doubts that we're going to have a fair election, and
if we do have a fair election, that those results
will be recognized. Thinking about currently in Texas, there's an

(01:02:26):
effort to redistrict mid decade where we have Trump calling
up Governor Greg Abbott saying, hey, buddy, like, let's redistrict
so we can add five more GOP seats to Congress.
So there's that level of just insidious stealing of elections

(01:02:46):
done by the right. Like the efforts we're doing right
now in Texas to stop that. That's the true stop
the steal because the right is trying to steal these districts.
But then we also have like will he honor results
of an election? And I don't, I don't. I don't

(01:03:06):
think so. I think they're they They've laid the groundwork
for a very very long time, back when back in
twenty sixteen when Trump won. I this is a it's
a really strange kind of like mental gymnastics thing for
me because I was like, oh my gosh, like wow,

(01:03:30):
like we do have a democracy, we do have fair elections,
because I was primed to believe that Hillary Clinton was
going to steal this election through voter fraud, Like I
was primed to believe that this is back in twenty sixteen,
So we're not even talking back up in twenty twenty
and then in twenty twenty one with January six terrorist

(01:03:51):
attack on the Capitol, So like, these seeds have been
planted for a very long time and we're I think
we're just starting to see the fruits of that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Yeah, And people I talk to are like, look, I
would love to have a democracy, but the Democrats can
never have power again. They want to and then laundry
list of fever, dream insanity, shit, from they want to
you know, eat babies to who knows. But I mean, like,
we just can't. We just can't. We can't ever let

(01:04:22):
you have power again because of Joe Biden. I mean,
look what he did. He passed an infrastructure bill. What
was it he did? Again?

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
I don't, right, something that saves my car from hitting
pop hooles driving to work every day.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Yeah, but I mean this is where we are. So
you know, the thing I've tried so many times is
to is to convince people that actually some progressive fiscal
policies are better for everybody, particularly the working class obviously,
but everybody in general. I mean, you look at countries
with what they call the Nordic model. People have longer

(01:04:58):
life spans, more vacucation time, a higher happiness index, you know,
free health.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Care, liberal fiscal policies.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Yeah see that's the problem.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Yeah, yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
I'm like, wouldn't you like a longer life span, a
higher happiness index, more vacation time?

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Right? Literal liberal like liberal policy is why we have
a weekend?

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Like right, like that's what? Right? Like? I exactly, I
I am I'm very afraid of all the deregulation and
I think a lot of a lot of the especially
all of the women like you have this this trad
wife movement of these women who are just like seeding

(01:05:41):
their power back to men, because that's what's exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
Today for my man, we're having.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
Like I could not. I could never, Like you'll, like
my husband's talking, I'm like, go find something I don't know,
Like that's I know, like liberal is gonna be like, well,
he's going to leave you, and I'm like, probably not.
But they're like, it's it's just so crazy because it's
like your ability, your your freedom to where pants came
from feminism, Like really like your freedom to have a

(01:06:17):
debit card and drive a car came from finism. Like
you are living the feminist dream, but you're willing to
give that up.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
I think it was nineteen seventy one was when women
could take out loans, right, it's reason it's insane.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Yeah, it's so so recent and they're i mean actively
actively trying to undo that in the name of American values.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
Yeah. Well, I wanted to end with some hope, and
then it turned out you and I are both of
the I know.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Well my hope, My hope is that there are people
waking up. There are people that are seeing through the
bs and they're seeing that they are being lied to,
and they're opening their eyes. Can't I can't help people
that are just unwilling to look at objective fact as
objective fact because they live in a completely different reality.

(01:07:15):
But there are people that are leaving the movement, and
like you said, we just need that two percent. We
just need like a little bit of people to wake
up and realize that they're being lied to by people
that are funded by billionaires.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, back to Epstein, that did
seem to wake some people up for a second. Everybody said,
Trump's going to do something to distract what's it going
to be, what's it gonna bean, It's gonna have to
be huge?

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
Oh war?

Speaker 1 (01:07:41):
What is it going to be? A almost in a
genius move, it was okay, okay, okay, you guys are
upset Abo, how about I arrest Barack Obama? And well, yeah, exactly,
just totally all those people that were out because the
epet list like oh ho oh hey.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Right, suddenly suddenly it's twenty sixteen again, and he was
talking about arresting Barack Obama, who's just living his best life,
like doing podcasts and stuff. Who it's it's it's insanity.
I haven't even I haven't even like formed an opinion
on it other than what the fuck, Like what are
we what are we doing? You would think that that

(01:08:22):
would wake people up because it's crazy, but again they live.

Speaker 1 (01:08:27):
Excuse me, Donald Trump. You arrested him, charged him with
thirty two crimes. So now, oh, now you're upset because
we're charging Obama. Yeah, but Trump committed the crimes.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
Right, yeah, exactly. Well back in twenty fourteen, like I
genuinely believed that Obama was going to declare martial law.
So that's how deep the brainwashing, brainwashing goes that they
like it's been primed from the start.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
My first ever video to go semi viral was like
a couple of weeks ago. I got over five hundred
thousand views, and I said, was America's starting to look
a lot like my Trump loving maga hat wearing uncle
told me America would look if we elected Obama, Like.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
This is thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
This is the exact country you were so afraid of.
There's gonna be masked, plain closed, men on the street
grabbing you without idea. This is the exact thing you
told me martial arcs. There's gonna be the military is
gonna be in the streets. I live in Los Angeles.
The military is in the streets. Plane closed, masked men

(01:09:32):
are grabbing people and throwing them into unmarked cars. This
is the exact America you told me we would have
if we elected Obama.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
The mental gymnastics are crazy, and the double standard is
the standards are a mile apart. You know what the
right can do like is what the left boogeyman is
imagined to do.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
Mm well, I think you should keep at it. You're
making a difference. I'm glad, glad to hear people are
reaching out to you. You want to remind everyone where
they can find you on social media so they can
support you in this effort.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
Yeah, I'm on active on TikTok at babyblue dot TX,
same handle on Instagram as well. Those are really the
two platforms that I'm active on right now. But maybe
I'll be doing more in the future.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
We sure hope. So you're the real deal, Caroline, and
we're so glad that you're doing what you're doing. And
let's see if we can shift that little two percent
and then have a free and fair election. If we
could do those two things, maybe we can get our
way out of that, and that is the hope. Thanks
for coming on the show.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Thank you so much, Thank you for having me.