February 1, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode, Dr. David Hanscom talks with Brenda Stockdale, Director of Behavioral Medicine at regional and nationally recognized cancer centers. She explores her innovative work in health psychology, focusing on helping individuals manage chronic pain and overcome serious illnesses through techniques like psychoneuroimmunology. She discusses her involvement with Bernie Siegel’s Exceptional Cancer Patients (ECAP) program, highlighting the transformative impact of fostering self-mastery, commitment, and the ability to view challenges as turning points. In addition, she shares her personal journey with lupus, illustrating how principles like relaxation, gratitude, and self-compassion facilitated her recovery. She emphasizes the physiological underpinnings of stress and healing, underscoring how tools like breathwork, imagery, and emotional reframing can stimulate the body's healing mechanisms. Download the transcript. As the Director of Behavioral Medicine at regional and nationally recognized cancer centers, Dr. Stockdale synthesizes relevant research into clinical practice through the design and implementation of evidence-based biobehavioral programming. As a result of this rigor, her work is nationally recognized and endorsed by leading specialists in multiple disciplines. For two decades her programs have been implemented in major cancer centers and other healthcare organizations. In addition to her private practice, Stockdale is a consultant for corporate and health care organizations and developed a health psychology program for primary care settings specializing in preventive medicine, autoimmunity and stress-related conditions. She is the author of “You Can Beat the Odds: Surprising Factors Behind Chronic Illness and Cancer.” For more information, visit: https://www.brendastockdale.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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Please note that all XZBN radio and/or television shows are Copyright © REL-MAR McConnell Meda Company, Niagara, Ontario, Canada – www.rel-mar.com. For more Episodes of this show and all shows produced, broadcasted and syndicated from REL-MAR McConell Media Company and The 'X' Zone Broadcast Network and the 'X' Zone TV Channell, visit www.xzbn.net. For programming, distribution, and syndication inquiries, email programming@xzbn.net.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The following podcast is part of the Mind, Body, Spirit
dot FM podcast network. Julia Cameron revolutionized the art of
creativity and inspired millions with her groundbreaking work The Artist's Way. Now,
she distills the Artist's Way message for millions more with
The Artist's Way Toolkit. The Artist's Way Toolkit delivers a practical,
(00:23):
accessible collection of tools that you can put to work
right now. It's the perfect entry point for everyone who
wants to reconnect to their essential creativity. Find The Artist's
Way Toolkit by Julia Cameron wherever books are sold.
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(01:03):
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Speaker 3 (01:17):
Hello and welcome to Back in Control Radio with Doctor
David Hanscombe.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Hello everybody, then Welcome to another episode of Back in
Control Radio with doctor David Hanscombe. I'm your host, Tom Masters,
and our guest today is doctor Brenda Stockdale. She's the
director of behavioral medicine at regional and nationally recognized cancer centers,
and her work is nationally recognized and endorsed by leading
(01:48):
specialties and multiple disciplines. In addition to her private practice,
she is a consultant for corporate and healthcare organizations and
developed a health psychology program for primary care settings, specializing
in preventive medicine, autoimmune and stress related conditions. She's the
(02:08):
author of You Can Beat the Odds. Surprising Factors behind
Chronic Illness and Cancer. Welcome, Thank you, Tom.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
Today, I would like to welcome Brenda Stockdale to our podcast.
I met her. How did I meet you? I think
it was through Facebook, right Brenda, and so I started
talking to her, realized that she has a lot going on,
so I invited her to be on the podcast. And
she's the director of behavioral medicine at a regional and
nationally recognized cancer center. She's a doctor. Docktail synthesizes relevant
(02:40):
research and the clinical practice through the design and implementation
of evidence based biobehavioral programming. As a result of this rigor,
her work is nationally recognized and endorsed by leading specialists
and multiple disciplines. For two decades, her programs have been
implemented in major cancer centers and other healthcare organizations. In
addition to her private practice, is a consultant for corporate
(03:01):
and healthcare organizations and developed a health psychology program for
priming here setting, specializing in prevented medicine, audimmunity, and stress
related conditions. She is the author of You Can Beat
the Odds Surprising Factors behind Chronic Illness and Cancer. So, Brenda,
welcome to the podcast. And what also intrigued me is
(03:22):
that she used to work with Bernie Siegel, who's a
nationally known expert in lots of different areas. He figured
this out way before the rest of us did, and
beat up pretty badly for it back then. I've got
to know Bernie personally. We've been to I've been to
his house a couple of times, talked to once in
a while. He's lectured on our Steady group. And Tom
(03:44):
actually works for Bernie also, So we all know Bernie Siegel.
That's our common thread toity. So Bernie is a great guy,
and what makes a little bit unusual is that he's
a surgeon, and surgeons don't do this, and so he
did this way before work other people did it. But
he also the part that intrigued me that I have
(04:04):
a time time getting out of Bernie, and I think
Brenda could go some insights. He formed this Exceptional Cancer
Survivors group that Brenda was involved with, and I'd like
to first of all get her background to day about
how she came to her perspective, but also tease out
the factors allow people to beat really incredible odds against cancer.
(04:27):
So and with Brenda, welcome and so let's work. Well,
I guess not backwards, but for is that when did
you work with Bernie Siegel?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
This was in the way back in the nineties, okay.
And I had been with Getting Well, which was a
hospital based psychoneuro immunology program in Orlando, and had moved
to Connecticut. Okay, that's what I started working up there with.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
A CAP Okay, And you worked with in ECAP stands for.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
What Exceptional cancer Patients.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
Okay, So you worked directly with that program.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I worked directly with that program and while I was there,
designed a program for the Helen and Harry Gray Cancer Center.
They were looking for a program that really pulled together
current research into a format that patients could actually use
to improve outcome. And that was with the president of
the American Cancer Society and the director of the cancer center,
(05:32):
doctor Andrew Selner, And that was the program that we did.
I did for them, and then I moved to Atlanta
and began doing that here. And then we did some
long distance programs with ECAP where people came from all
over the world for intensive, week long experiences.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
So before I jump into this, which I find extremely fascinating,
what's your background, how you came to some of the
things that you understand now because you're a clinical psychologist correct.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Really it's health psychology ye okay.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
And so you have a clinical practice also, yes? And
did you work with the cancer patients directly or more
more or less program development? What was your role.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
There at getting Well? I was clinical assistant, okay. I
came to ECAP, I was designing this particular program and
also doing group work with with with folks and yeah.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
Can you explain to everybody what so who are these people?
I mean, who who belongs to a CAP. You have
to have a it's not an open membership. You have
to have some characteristics to actually be there. So it's
exceptional cancer patients, correct, that have very advanced cancer that
have survived. And again what we're all dying to here
is what the characteristics that allowed them to survive. These
(07:03):
are stage for cancers too, right, well.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Not everyone, so you know, folks would have a cancer diagnosis,
but it did not have to be advanced. I think
that those are some of the most extraordinary experiences that
we read about, of course in Love, Medicine and Miracles
and peace, love and healing, but stages two and so
(07:27):
when we look today, we have an advantage of seeing
how incredible Bernie's work really was because we can look
through the lens of research. Okay, and you you know
have talked about the Rayhee and Holmes stress Index, and
decades after that, a psychologist by the name of Suzanne
Cabasa became really curious about individuals who, despite high numbers
(07:52):
on that scale, did not become ill. And this is
post I think post ecap perhaps or after Love, Medicine
and Miracles had been written, and so she looked at
these into this group of folks to see if there
was something different, and she found out that they did
have several traits and she dubbed these the three c's
(08:17):
for control, commitment, and challenge. And what she found was
that despite what was happening around them, these individuals had
a high sense of self mastery. So the sense of
control wasn't trying to control the environment. That would be
my high stress response, right, trying to control the environment,
(08:40):
But it was a sense of self mastery and commitment.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
While we all know.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
That altruism is and you know, enhancing in her way
of thinking and interviewing these folks, it was a high
degree of commitment to the self. And then finally we
have challenge, which was the ability to see the current
crisis as a turning point rather than an end point.
(09:08):
And if I look at some of course there's other
factors we could look at. With what Bernie was able
to accomplish, he was inspiring these three c's. Now, for
a while, researchers believed that we either came by these
traits innately, we naturally possessed these traits, or we didn't.
(09:28):
But then in the nineties it was found that we
could adopt these traits and we could get the same
immunoprotective benefits as someone who came by these traits more naturally.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Uh So we can let me stop you dish for
a second. So just to be clear when you say imminology,
So let's have a what we call threat physiology or
stress physiology. Share. In fight or flight, your nerve transmitters
go from calming to excavatory, Your nerve connection doubles, your
brains heal becomes inflame, Your stress warm hormones are on
(10:01):
full gear, your cortisols pulling fuel out of the cells,
and your cided kinds, these old molecules that communicate cell
to cell go from anti inflammatory inflammatory. So your whole
body is under a stress threat state. Correct. So what
you're saying that the people that had let me just
rephrase this for a second, I think you'll agree with you.
(10:21):
So we know that the first one control self mastery
out of the laboratory. In the lab, they've shown that
a sense of control actually decreases inflammatory SIDI kinds directly,
that's one of them. And then then commitment to sell
is a big one. Because the tipping point in chronic pain,
which is one of many chronic diseases, They're all come
from the same source is anger. The tipping points always anger.
(10:46):
So if you're committed to yourself taking full responsibility instead
of blaming others, that's a huge tipping point. Then the
final thing with challenge, I think they can only encourage
the creativity, So you're challenging yourself to look outwards, not
again the blame comes into play, so real he encourasion
with creativity, and so these people that survived somehow had
(11:08):
innately figured this out. And then the research is pulled
from what you observed, I'm guessing, and you're saying that
you actually can attain these characteristics, and.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
You know, just to go back a bit, I'm it
could be. And of course this is hypothesizing that Bernie's
inspirational directives some of those principles that he would teach
in this these groups when he first founded that that
(11:40):
he outlines in Love, Medicine, and Miracles. It seems to
me that they encourage those three c's, among other things.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
So I quite I need to quite fellow say what
did Bernie teach exactly?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
So I think that well with some of his tea,
like when he in meeting with individuals. One of the
things he would do. And I think if anyone has
been to one of his groups or in an auditorium
to hear him speak or listen to his audios, he
would have a profound His words were so moving that
(12:16):
people would have tears to that have their eyes closed,
but there'd be tears running down their faces just from
his imagery. That he would ask people to relax. And
we can talk a little bit about the science behind imagery,
but he used imagery in part as just one of
the tools. I think of it as a tool. He
may not think of it as a tool. I don't
(12:38):
want to speak for him, but he used this very organically,
very union kind of perspective, but helping people really look
inside and tease out some of these things. So if
I've been someone, let's just say, for example, that doesn't
(12:58):
want to get a second opinion and because I don't
want to offend my doctor.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
Right, that is very common yees, So.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Perhaps I'm listening to Bernie and I start to have
more of a commitment to myself. I start to write,
Or perhaps I'm listening to Bernie and he's leading me
through an imagery and I start to through that relaxation response. Right,
I'm able to reframe organically a challenge and think of
(13:27):
it from a higher vantage point. So I'm reprioritizing my life.
But yet Bernie's just maybe told some stories, led me
through an imagery, showed me what might be possible. And
now I can see that maybe a little differently. And
so these are just a couple of little windows that
(13:48):
I might see through the lens of research, looking at
how Bernie might have leveraged some of what we know
today for these profound outs comes.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Julia Cameron revolutionized the art of creativity and inspired millions
with her groundbreaking work The Artist's Way. Now she distills
the Artist's Way message for millions more with The Artist's
Way Toolkit. The Artist's Way Toolkit delivers a practical, accessible
collection of tools that you can put to work right now.
It's the perfect entry point for everyone who wants to
(14:23):
reconnect to their essential creativity. Find The Artist's Way Toolkit
by Julia Cameron wherever books are sold.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
Well, we know that you know, as you know, I
have this paradigm of healing hers some connection, confidence and
creativity sort of the same three c's, and you start
connecting to what is in connecting to yourself as a
huge deal. And you know the ultimate thing is that
it's a human nature in particularly in our today's society,
(15:01):
is to blame. We don't take responsibility for ourselves. And
where I call it the eye of the storm, is
that healing occurs if you look at the hurricane. Is
that the wind represents your thoughts, represent your circumstances, most
of which we can't control. So we tend to get
swept into the wind. And what you're trying to do
(15:23):
is pull yourself into the center, regardless of the circumstances.
I call it the eye of the storm. Are we
saying the same thing? Yes?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Yes, So we could have some folks who might be
more naturally that way, right, And then we have folks
who who are learning it would be more like myself,
who are learning to experience life through through this different approach.
But then the orientation or the rubric over the whole
(15:54):
piece the way I hear it again, I keep saying
that because I'm not speaking for Vernie, but would be
through the lens of our own mortality. Because when Bernie
first sent that invitation out to come to listen, to
meet at the Yale Auditorium. They had social workers, nurses, everyone.
All these letters had gone out inviting everyone to learn
(16:15):
maybe some tips and tools how to live better maybe longer. Right,
And we've had this handful of people, I think thirteen
individuals or something showed up. So Bobby Bernie's wife called
them exceptional, not because they lived, but because they showed up.
And I think that's one of Bernie's principles here is
that I know he wrote in the forward to my
(16:37):
book he says, you can do all these things and
you're still not going to live forever. So he yes, focusing.
So I think when we think of passive volition, I'm sorry,
the concept of passive volition, so when we think special volition, right,
So it's an intention. Right. So if I'm going through
(16:58):
your program, obviously love to have less pain, right, that
would be magnificent. But if that is my sole objective,
I'm going to be measuring everything against that and increasing
stress exactly. Okay, So but passive volition, I might have
this intention, hey, I want to lighten up my pain,
(17:19):
but my thrust here, my focus is on living better.
Then through passive volition, I'm more likely to achieve that outcome.
So we're living better even if we didn't live longer.
I think would be Bernie's ideas. It's not because you're
doing these things that you're going to live forever. But
if by accepting your own mortality you might live with
(17:42):
more passion, more gusto, more individuality, you might get that
second or third opinion, and then by chance you might
live longer.
Speaker 5 (17:52):
Right, well, I have a little bit more of acrude
way saying this, so I apolaudre for this in advance.
But the question, the point is anytime you're anxious, frustrated,
or angry, something in the present reminded you of something
in the past that was dangerous or perceived as dangerous.
So if you're anxious or frustrated, you're not even here,
(18:13):
you're there.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
True.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
So the question is and then, of course we know
anxiety and angers. You break your body down, that's threat physiology.
And so the question is how many years do you
want to live where you're awake, actually here or aware?
So to me, I don't know what the term is.
I'm coming up maybe helping with the term for this,
but how many years do you want to actually be alive?
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Right?
Speaker 5 (18:38):
Right? And that mean, he's living with awareness and the
peb When the anchierus are frustrated, you're not even here,
You're disconnected, right, and then that's a survival reaction, which
is a million times stronger than your conscious brain. So
this anxiety anger just overwhelms everything and you cannot construct
the life that you want because you're too busy fighting
(18:58):
off anxiety frustrated, which is impossible. It's a never ending story.
It's a never ending process. So one of my quotes is,
you know, quit fighting darkness, just turn on the lights.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Love that quote of yours, by the way, so that
I've used that for myself, that is, I love.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
That well, I still use it myself too, because I
mean I spent my entire life fighting darkness. You know,
my story is not a great story. And so before
we finished part of the podcast, I want to jump
back to you personally, because obviously I'm guessing you were
raising some environment as most of us, with society being
critical of us and can't be good enough and driven
(19:38):
by accomplishments whatever that means what we're programmed to do.
And I don't know your story in detail. We don't
need to go into much detail. I'm curious you have
had I'm just curious how all these principles have applied
to your personal life.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Okay, well, when I was really young, I was diagnosed
with first multiple sclerosis, then s derma, and then rheumatured arthritis.
And then my father said that's enough. There's you know,
three diseases like this. So we I went to the
Mayo Clinic and found out I didn't have any of those. Wow,
but had systemic lupus.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Oh you did that time?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yeah, And it just so happened that that's when psychoneur
immunology really burst on the scene. So I was down
at the library in the stacks, back in the day
before the internet, you know, down in the stacks, just
reading everything I could, and a friend sent me Bernie's book, Okay,
and I was just I was just gobsmacked. I thought, wow,
(20:39):
this holds so many, so many pieces for me. So
I called a cap and they said, you have the
most comprehensive P and I program psychoneuromnology program at a
hospital in your backyard in Orlando, Florida. Okay, I didn't
even know about it. And that's where I became the
clinical assistant there. And not only watched other people have
(21:03):
just remarkable recoveries and experiences, but began learning how to
really be different in my body. I know that sounds
kind of weird.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
But no, no, that's Jackie I was.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
It was really challenging for me. So when I met
with my doctor at Mayo, I said, you know, can
you just give me three months without going on steroids
or plaquanel, et cetera to see what I can do
with this? And he said he was so lovely Scott
Percal and he said sure. And I came back three
months later in my labs had not improved, and I said,
(21:37):
you don't know how stressful it is for me to
learn to relax. I am so stressed trying to learn
to relax. It was so difficult for me. And he said, okay,
I'll give you three more months, but then that's it.
You can't you know, I'm not comfortable with anything beyond that.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
And how old were you at the time.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I was twenties, in my twenties, and.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
You had actually done so was your lupus active knowledge beginning?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, A fever for five years and chronic kidney infections
and neurological issues. And I had been treating it because
I thought I had MS. So I had been writing
trains around Europe and waiting on tables with triple shifts
and skiing the Alps and all. I had been doing
(22:24):
everything with my body that I possibly could, you know,
in terms of intensity, right, I thought, I can do
everything else later if I if I can't do all
these things. So I was really amazing that I was
still still alive. After the way I treated my body.
It was like an enemy. I felt, you know, my
(22:45):
body's doing this to me, so I need to do
everything I can. And so it was a radical shift
for me to learn to partner my body to treat,
to learn to be my own best friend, to be compassionate,
and to see things very differently. But that process did
have some positive effects because when I went back to Mayo,
(23:07):
half my labs were normal. And then a few months
later when I went back for more work, he said, look,
if everything is decent and good you, I'm not going
to call you. I'll just send my usual letter. But
over the PA system at the hospital they called me
to the phone, which made my heart race, but he
told me, so, I just have to tell you. You're
(23:29):
in your first zerological and clinical remission, and that was
after seven years.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
I think so, And I'm sure you did that with
really physically accurate at the time or which is I
guess my question. So you did learn to relax.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
I did learn to relax. I cannot say I am.
I work with people who are much better at this
than I am. I work at this, you know, I
am conscious of this. This is a pattern for me.
So I am very aware of the need during the
day to do diaformatic breathing. I went to Mayoclinic. I
(24:05):
learned to warm my hands with handt held temperature bulb.
So I used those with patients you know, who are
more like I am, where that capillary flow is restricted
due to not breathing diaformatically. So I you know, I
kind of started back there and then gradually worked on
fine tuning my attitude with these practical skills and focusing
(24:31):
less on the outcome and more on joy and acceptance
and gratitude. So these were things that instead of chasing
activities and sports and things like that, I was really
more focused on creating an optimal environment for my body
(24:54):
that I had really pushed really hard.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
Okay, well, I appreciate. Hey, I'm excited about your insights.
On the second second part of this episode, we'll talk
more about what you just discussed in a little more
detail and some of the ways you actually got relaxed.
Because I've said for a long time that the antithesis
of pain is play. But you're not doing play to
distract yourself, because the data also shows out of UCLA
(25:19):
that if you're living in a hedonistic lifestyle, to outrun
your pain essentially is actually highly inflammatory, and so is
connecting with passion and purpose. Just totally engage with what
you're in and it's not only it's just this happy,
happy type thing. It's just total engagement with what you're
right in front of you. And so, you know, it's
(25:42):
sort of and for me personally, gratitude has been a
big one. And just to remind myself, refer to Tom
here for a second, surgeons don't think like this, including
me historically. I'm a surgeon. I fix things. I did
high level surgery. So we look at these things like
gratitude and play, and you know, relaxation is sort of
(26:02):
well whatever. But see, unfortunately they put stress into a
psychological bucket. It's actually a physiological state. For instance, breath
work stimulates the vagus nerve, which is which is anti inflammatory.
Veggus nerve, you know, calms down, the sidikinds calms down.
Your physiology regulates the whole body. You know. The gratitude
(26:23):
is huge because that is the input factor if you're
I mean, for instance, fomal, if you're missing out, always
being upset about what you don't have, actually directly fires
up the pain circuits directly. It's unbelievable. So what happens
we have a societal fomal because there's so much opportunity
and we actually directly are stimulating our pain circuits in
(26:47):
the brain. It's unbelievable. So gratitude for me personally has
been a big one. That's not been my historic norm.
I get to tell you and so no, your insights
are really profound. So just a punctuation point on what
you're talking about. There's a huge sound basis in science
about what's going on. This is not some type of
(27:07):
let's just distract this person, do this, this, and this.
Your body knows how to heal if you can stimulate
the healing properties and everything you've talked about, in addition
to other ones, we'll mention stimulate your body's on capacity
to heal. So, Brenda, I know your private practice, are
you how do we access your resources? What are something?
(27:28):
I know you've written a book, and I know you
have a you have a website, yes, so how do
we get ahold of.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
You through my website and my number and email the
HIPPA compliance email my phone numbers right there?
Speaker 5 (27:42):
What's your website?
Speaker 3 (27:43):
It's my name, Brenda Stockdale dot com. Okay, yeah, and
there's audios that people can download. These were audios that
I used learning to relax, So there are things that
were used for me.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Great, therefore, and then you just wrote a book. Whis
the book?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
It's you Can Beat the Odds Surprising Factors behind Chronic
Illness and Cancer. So it's the six week program okay
that I designed for the Helen and Harry Gray Cancer Center.
And there's hundreds of original research articles cited in the back,
resource guides for each section to take people to other
(28:27):
authors and video content websites that kind of thing.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
Okay, well, great, well, Brenda, thank you for being on
the podcast, and you've actually reaised more questions in my mind.
I'm excited to talk about it. In our second episode.
So thank you very very much for being on the
podcast today.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
I'd like to thank our guests, doctor Brenda Stockdale for
being on the show today and sharing the experiences that
helped shape her practice, particularly her work with doctor Bernie Siegel.
I'm your host, Tom Masters, reminding you to be back
next week for another episode of Back in Control Radio
with doctor David Hanscombe, and in the meantime, be sure
(29:09):
to visit the website at www dot backincontrol dot com.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Thanks for listening today and join us next week for
Back in Control Radium
The following podcast is part of the Mind, Body, Spirit
dot FM podcast network. Julia Cameron revolutionized the art of
creativity and inspired millions with her groundbreaking work The Artist's Way. Now,
she distills the Artist's Way message for millions more with
The Artist's Way Toolkit. The Artist's Way Toolkit delivers a practical,
(00:23):
accessible collection of tools that you can put to work
right now. It's the perfect entry point for everyone who
wants to reconnect to their essential creativity. Find The Artist's
Way Toolkit by Julia Cameron wherever books are sold.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
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Speaker 3 (01:17):
Hello and welcome to Back in Control Radio with Doctor
David Hanscombe.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Hello everybody, then Welcome to another episode of Back in
Control Radio with doctor David Hanscombe. I'm your host, Tom Masters,
and our guest today is doctor Brenda Stockdale. She's the
director of behavioral medicine at regional and nationally recognized cancer centers,
and her work is nationally recognized and endorsed by leading
(01:48):
specialties and multiple disciplines. In addition to her private practice,
she is a consultant for corporate and healthcare organizations and
developed a health psychology program for primary care settings, specializing
in preventive medicine, autoimmune and stress related conditions. She's the
(02:08):
author of You Can Beat the Odds. Surprising Factors behind
Chronic Illness and Cancer. Welcome, Thank you, Tom.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
Today, I would like to welcome Brenda Stockdale to our podcast.
I met her. How did I meet you? I think
it was through Facebook, right Brenda, and so I started
talking to her, realized that she has a lot going on,
so I invited her to be on the podcast. And
she's the director of behavioral medicine at a regional and
nationally recognized cancer center. She's a doctor. Docktail synthesizes relevant
(02:40):
research and the clinical practice through the design and implementation
of evidence based biobehavioral programming. As a result of this rigor,
her work is nationally recognized and endorsed by leading specialists
and multiple disciplines. For two decades, her programs have been
implemented in major cancer centers and other healthcare organizations. In
addition to her private practice, is a consultant for corporate
(03:01):
and healthcare organizations and developed a health psychology program for
priming here setting, specializing in prevented medicine, audimmunity, and stress
related conditions. She is the author of You Can Beat
the Odds Surprising Factors behind Chronic Illness and Cancer. So, Brenda,
welcome to the podcast. And what also intrigued me is
(03:22):
that she used to work with Bernie Siegel, who's a
nationally known expert in lots of different areas. He figured
this out way before the rest of us did, and
beat up pretty badly for it back then. I've got
to know Bernie personally. We've been to I've been to
his house a couple of times, talked to once in
a while. He's lectured on our Steady group. And Tom
(03:44):
actually works for Bernie also, So we all know Bernie Siegel.
That's our common thread toity. So Bernie is a great guy,
and what makes a little bit unusual is that he's
a surgeon, and surgeons don't do this, and so he
did this way before work other people did it. But
he also the part that intrigued me that I have
(04:04):
a time time getting out of Bernie, and I think
Brenda could go some insights. He formed this Exceptional Cancer
Survivors group that Brenda was involved with, and I'd like
to first of all get her background to day about
how she came to her perspective, but also tease out
the factors allow people to beat really incredible odds against cancer.
(04:27):
So and with Brenda, welcome and so let's work. Well,
I guess not backwards, but for is that when did
you work with Bernie Siegel?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
This was in the way back in the nineties, okay.
And I had been with Getting Well, which was a
hospital based psychoneuro immunology program in Orlando, and had moved
to Connecticut. Okay, that's what I started working up there with.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
A CAP Okay, And you worked with in ECAP stands for.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
What Exceptional cancer Patients.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
Okay, So you worked directly with that program.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I worked directly with that program and while I was there,
designed a program for the Helen and Harry Gray Cancer Center.
They were looking for a program that really pulled together
current research into a format that patients could actually use
to improve outcome. And that was with the president of
the American Cancer Society and the director of the cancer center,
(05:32):
doctor Andrew Selner, And that was the program that we did.
I did for them, and then I moved to Atlanta
and began doing that here. And then we did some
long distance programs with ECAP where people came from all
over the world for intensive, week long experiences.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
So before I jump into this, which I find extremely fascinating,
what's your background, how you came to some of the
things that you understand now because you're a clinical psychologist correct.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Really it's health psychology ye okay.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
And so you have a clinical practice also, yes? And
did you work with the cancer patients directly or more
more or less program development? What was your role.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
There at getting Well? I was clinical assistant, okay. I
came to ECAP, I was designing this particular program and
also doing group work with with with folks and yeah.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
Can you explain to everybody what so who are these people?
I mean, who who belongs to a CAP. You have
to have a it's not an open membership. You have
to have some characteristics to actually be there. So it's
exceptional cancer patients, correct, that have very advanced cancer that
have survived. And again what we're all dying to here
is what the characteristics that allowed them to survive. These
(07:03):
are stage for cancers too, right, well.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Not everyone, so you know, folks would have a cancer diagnosis,
but it did not have to be advanced. I think
that those are some of the most extraordinary experiences that
we read about, of course in Love, Medicine and Miracles
and peace, love and healing, but stages two and so
(07:27):
when we look today, we have an advantage of seeing
how incredible Bernie's work really was because we can look
through the lens of research. Okay, and you you know
have talked about the Rayhee and Holmes stress Index, and
decades after that, a psychologist by the name of Suzanne
Cabasa became really curious about individuals who, despite high numbers
(07:52):
on that scale, did not become ill. And this is
post I think post ecap perhaps or after Love, Medicine
and Miracles had been written, and so she looked at
these into this group of folks to see if there
was something different, and she found out that they did
have several traits and she dubbed these the three c's
(08:17):
for control, commitment, and challenge. And what she found was
that despite what was happening around them, these individuals had
a high sense of self mastery. So the sense of
control wasn't trying to control the environment. That would be
my high stress response, right, trying to control the environment,
(08:40):
But it was a sense of self mastery and commitment.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
While we all know.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
That altruism is and you know, enhancing in her way
of thinking and interviewing these folks, it was a high
degree of commitment to the self. And then finally we
have challenge, which was the ability to see the current
crisis as a turning point rather than an end point.
(09:08):
And if I look at some of course there's other
factors we could look at. With what Bernie was able
to accomplish, he was inspiring these three c's. Now, for
a while, researchers believed that we either came by these
traits innately, we naturally possessed these traits, or we didn't.
(09:28):
But then in the nineties it was found that we
could adopt these traits and we could get the same
immunoprotective benefits as someone who came by these traits more naturally.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Uh So we can let me stop you dish for
a second. So just to be clear when you say imminology,
So let's have a what we call threat physiology or
stress physiology. Share. In fight or flight, your nerve transmitters
go from calming to excavatory, Your nerve connection doubles, your
brains heal becomes inflame, Your stress warm hormones are on
(10:01):
full gear, your cortisols pulling fuel out of the cells,
and your cided kinds, these old molecules that communicate cell
to cell go from anti inflammatory inflammatory. So your whole
body is under a stress threat state. Correct. So what
you're saying that the people that had let me just
rephrase this for a second, I think you'll agree with you.
(10:21):
So we know that the first one control self mastery
out of the laboratory. In the lab, they've shown that
a sense of control actually decreases inflammatory SIDI kinds directly,
that's one of them. And then then commitment to sell
is a big one. Because the tipping point in chronic pain,
which is one of many chronic diseases, They're all come
from the same source is anger. The tipping points always anger.
(10:46):
So if you're committed to yourself taking full responsibility instead
of blaming others, that's a huge tipping point. Then the
final thing with challenge, I think they can only encourage
the creativity, So you're challenging yourself to look outwards, not
again the blame comes into play, so real he encourasion
with creativity, and so these people that survived somehow had
(11:08):
innately figured this out. And then the research is pulled
from what you observed, I'm guessing, and you're saying that
you actually can attain these characteristics, and.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
You know, just to go back a bit, I'm it
could be. And of course this is hypothesizing that Bernie's
inspirational directives some of those principles that he would teach
in this these groups when he first founded that that
(11:40):
he outlines in Love, Medicine, and Miracles. It seems to
me that they encourage those three c's, among other things.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
So I quite I need to quite fellow say what
did Bernie teach exactly?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
So I think that well with some of his tea,
like when he in meeting with individuals. One of the
things he would do. And I think if anyone has
been to one of his groups or in an auditorium
to hear him speak or listen to his audios, he
would have a profound His words were so moving that
(12:16):
people would have tears to that have their eyes closed,
but there'd be tears running down their faces just from
his imagery. That he would ask people to relax. And
we can talk a little bit about the science behind imagery,
but he used imagery in part as just one of
the tools. I think of it as a tool. He
may not think of it as a tool. I don't
(12:38):
want to speak for him, but he used this very organically,
very union kind of perspective, but helping people really look
inside and tease out some of these things. So if
I've been someone, let's just say, for example, that doesn't
(12:58):
want to get a second opinion and because I don't
want to offend my doctor.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
Right, that is very common yees, So.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Perhaps I'm listening to Bernie and I start to have
more of a commitment to myself. I start to write,
Or perhaps I'm listening to Bernie and he's leading me
through an imagery and I start to through that relaxation response. Right,
I'm able to reframe organically a challenge and think of
(13:27):
it from a higher vantage point. So I'm reprioritizing my life.
But yet Bernie's just maybe told some stories, led me
through an imagery, showed me what might be possible. And
now I can see that maybe a little differently. And
so these are just a couple of little windows that
(13:48):
I might see through the lens of research, looking at
how Bernie might have leveraged some of what we know
today for these profound outs comes.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Julia Cameron revolutionized the art of creativity and inspired millions
with her groundbreaking work The Artist's Way. Now she distills
the Artist's Way message for millions more with The Artist's
Way Toolkit. The Artist's Way Toolkit delivers a practical, accessible
collection of tools that you can put to work right now.
It's the perfect entry point for everyone who wants to
(14:23):
reconnect to their essential creativity. Find The Artist's Way Toolkit
by Julia Cameron wherever books are sold.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
Well, we know that you know, as you know, I
have this paradigm of healing hers some connection, confidence and
creativity sort of the same three c's, and you start
connecting to what is in connecting to yourself as a
huge deal. And you know the ultimate thing is that
it's a human nature in particularly in our today's society,
(15:01):
is to blame. We don't take responsibility for ourselves. And
where I call it the eye of the storm, is
that healing occurs if you look at the hurricane. Is
that the wind represents your thoughts, represent your circumstances, most
of which we can't control. So we tend to get
swept into the wind. And what you're trying to do
(15:23):
is pull yourself into the center, regardless of the circumstances.
I call it the eye of the storm. Are we
saying the same thing? Yes?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Yes, So we could have some folks who might be
more naturally that way, right, And then we have folks
who who are learning it would be more like myself,
who are learning to experience life through through this different approach.
But then the orientation or the rubric over the whole
(15:54):
piece the way I hear it again, I keep saying
that because I'm not speaking for Vernie, but would be
through the lens of our own mortality. Because when Bernie
first sent that invitation out to come to listen, to
meet at the Yale Auditorium. They had social workers, nurses, everyone.
All these letters had gone out inviting everyone to learn
(16:15):
maybe some tips and tools how to live better maybe longer. Right,
And we've had this handful of people, I think thirteen
individuals or something showed up. So Bobby Bernie's wife called
them exceptional, not because they lived, but because they showed up.
And I think that's one of Bernie's principles here is
that I know he wrote in the forward to my
(16:37):
book he says, you can do all these things and
you're still not going to live forever. So he yes, focusing.
So I think when we think of passive volition, I'm sorry,
the concept of passive volition, so when we think special volition, right,
So it's an intention. Right. So if I'm going through
(16:58):
your program, obviously love to have less pain, right, that
would be magnificent. But if that is my sole objective,
I'm going to be measuring everything against that and increasing
stress exactly. Okay, So but passive volition, I might have
this intention, hey, I want to lighten up my pain,
(17:19):
but my thrust here, my focus is on living better.
Then through passive volition, I'm more likely to achieve that outcome.
So we're living better even if we didn't live longer.
I think would be Bernie's ideas. It's not because you're
doing these things that you're going to live forever. But
if by accepting your own mortality you might live with
(17:42):
more passion, more gusto, more individuality, you might get that
second or third opinion, and then by chance you might
live longer.
Speaker 5 (17:52):
Right, well, I have a little bit more of acrude
way saying this, so I apolaudre for this in advance.
But the question, the point is anytime you're anxious, frustrated,
or angry, something in the present reminded you of something
in the past that was dangerous or perceived as dangerous.
So if you're anxious or frustrated, you're not even here,
(18:13):
you're there.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
True.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
So the question is and then, of course we know
anxiety and angers. You break your body down, that's threat physiology.
And so the question is how many years do you
want to live where you're awake, actually here or aware?
So to me, I don't know what the term is.
I'm coming up maybe helping with the term for this,
but how many years do you want to actually be alive?
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Right?
Speaker 5 (18:38):
Right? And that mean, he's living with awareness and the
peb When the anchierus are frustrated, you're not even here,
You're disconnected, right, and then that's a survival reaction, which
is a million times stronger than your conscious brain. So
this anxiety anger just overwhelms everything and you cannot construct
the life that you want because you're too busy fighting
(18:58):
off anxiety frustrated, which is impossible. It's a never ending story.
It's a never ending process. So one of my quotes is,
you know, quit fighting darkness, just turn on the lights.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Love that quote of yours, by the way, so that
I've used that for myself, that is, I love.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
That well, I still use it myself too, because I
mean I spent my entire life fighting darkness. You know,
my story is not a great story. And so before
we finished part of the podcast, I want to jump
back to you personally, because obviously I'm guessing you were
raising some environment as most of us, with society being
critical of us and can't be good enough and driven
(19:38):
by accomplishments whatever that means what we're programmed to do.
And I don't know your story in detail. We don't
need to go into much detail. I'm curious you have
had I'm just curious how all these principles have applied
to your personal life.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Okay, well, when I was really young, I was diagnosed
with first multiple sclerosis, then s derma, and then rheumatured arthritis.
And then my father said that's enough. There's you know,
three diseases like this. So we I went to the
Mayo Clinic and found out I didn't have any of those. Wow,
but had systemic lupus.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Oh you did that time?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yeah, And it just so happened that that's when psychoneur
immunology really burst on the scene. So I was down
at the library in the stacks, back in the day
before the internet, you know, down in the stacks, just
reading everything I could, and a friend sent me Bernie's book, Okay,
and I was just I was just gobsmacked. I thought, wow,
(20:39):
this holds so many, so many pieces for me. So
I called a cap and they said, you have the
most comprehensive P and I program psychoneuromnology program at a
hospital in your backyard in Orlando, Florida. Okay, I didn't
even know about it. And that's where I became the
clinical assistant there. And not only watched other people have
(21:03):
just remarkable recoveries and experiences, but began learning how to
really be different in my body. I know that sounds
kind of weird.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
But no, no, that's Jackie I was.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
It was really challenging for me. So when I met
with my doctor at Mayo, I said, you know, can
you just give me three months without going on steroids
or plaquanel, et cetera to see what I can do
with this? And he said he was so lovely Scott
Percal and he said sure. And I came back three
months later in my labs had not improved, and I said,
(21:37):
you don't know how stressful it is for me to
learn to relax. I am so stressed trying to learn
to relax. It was so difficult for me. And he said, okay,
I'll give you three more months, but then that's it.
You can't you know, I'm not comfortable with anything beyond that.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
And how old were you at the time.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I was twenties, in my twenties, and.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
You had actually done so was your lupus active knowledge beginning?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, A fever for five years and chronic kidney infections
and neurological issues. And I had been treating it because
I thought I had MS. So I had been writing
trains around Europe and waiting on tables with triple shifts
and skiing the Alps and all. I had been doing
(22:24):
everything with my body that I possibly could, you know,
in terms of intensity, right, I thought, I can do
everything else later if I if I can't do all
these things. So I was really amazing that I was
still still alive. After the way I treated my body.
It was like an enemy. I felt, you know, my
(22:45):
body's doing this to me, so I need to do
everything I can. And so it was a radical shift
for me to learn to partner my body to treat,
to learn to be my own best friend, to be compassionate,
and to see things very differently. But that process did
have some positive effects because when I went back to Mayo,
(23:07):
half my labs were normal. And then a few months
later when I went back for more work, he said, look,
if everything is decent and good you, I'm not going
to call you. I'll just send my usual letter. But
over the PA system at the hospital they called me
to the phone, which made my heart race, but he
told me, so, I just have to tell you. You're
(23:29):
in your first zerological and clinical remission, and that was
after seven years.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
I think so, And I'm sure you did that with
really physically accurate at the time or which is I
guess my question. So you did learn to relax.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
I did learn to relax. I cannot say I am.
I work with people who are much better at this
than I am. I work at this, you know, I
am conscious of this. This is a pattern for me.
So I am very aware of the need during the
day to do diaformatic breathing. I went to Mayoclinic. I
(24:05):
learned to warm my hands with handt held temperature bulb.
So I used those with patients you know, who are
more like I am, where that capillary flow is restricted
due to not breathing diaformatically. So I you know, I
kind of started back there and then gradually worked on
fine tuning my attitude with these practical skills and focusing
(24:31):
less on the outcome and more on joy and acceptance
and gratitude. So these were things that instead of chasing
activities and sports and things like that, I was really
more focused on creating an optimal environment for my body
(24:54):
that I had really pushed really hard.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
Okay, well, I appreciate. Hey, I'm excited about your insights.
On the second second part of this episode, we'll talk
more about what you just discussed in a little more
detail and some of the ways you actually got relaxed.
Because I've said for a long time that the antithesis
of pain is play. But you're not doing play to
distract yourself, because the data also shows out of UCLA
(25:19):
that if you're living in a hedonistic lifestyle, to outrun
your pain essentially is actually highly inflammatory, and so is
connecting with passion and purpose. Just totally engage with what
you're in and it's not only it's just this happy,
happy type thing. It's just total engagement with what you're
right in front of you. And so, you know, it's
(25:42):
sort of and for me personally, gratitude has been a
big one. And just to remind myself, refer to Tom
here for a second, surgeons don't think like this, including
me historically. I'm a surgeon. I fix things. I did
high level surgery. So we look at these things like
gratitude and play, and you know, relaxation is sort of
(26:02):
well whatever. But see, unfortunately they put stress into a
psychological bucket. It's actually a physiological state. For instance, breath
work stimulates the vagus nerve, which is which is anti inflammatory.
Veggus nerve, you know, calms down, the sidikinds calms down.
Your physiology regulates the whole body. You know. The gratitude
(26:23):
is huge because that is the input factor if you're
I mean, for instance, fomal, if you're missing out, always
being upset about what you don't have, actually directly fires
up the pain circuits directly. It's unbelievable. So what happens
we have a societal fomal because there's so much opportunity
and we actually directly are stimulating our pain circuits in
(26:47):
the brain. It's unbelievable. So gratitude for me personally has
been a big one. That's not been my historic norm.
I get to tell you and so no, your insights
are really profound. So just a punctuation point on what
you're talking about. There's a huge sound basis in science
about what's going on. This is not some type of
(27:07):
let's just distract this person, do this, this, and this.
Your body knows how to heal if you can stimulate
the healing properties and everything you've talked about, in addition
to other ones, we'll mention stimulate your body's on capacity
to heal. So, Brenda, I know your private practice, are
you how do we access your resources? What are something?
(27:28):
I know you've written a book, and I know you
have a you have a website, yes, so how do
we get ahold of.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
You through my website and my number and email the
HIPPA compliance email my phone numbers right there?
Speaker 5 (27:42):
What's your website?
Speaker 3 (27:43):
It's my name, Brenda Stockdale dot com. Okay, yeah, and
there's audios that people can download. These were audios that
I used learning to relax, So there are things that
were used for me.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Great, therefore, and then you just wrote a book. Whis
the book?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
It's you Can Beat the Odds Surprising Factors behind Chronic
Illness and Cancer. So it's the six week program okay
that I designed for the Helen and Harry Gray Cancer Center.
And there's hundreds of original research articles cited in the back,
resource guides for each section to take people to other
(28:27):
authors and video content websites that kind of thing.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
Okay, well, great, well, Brenda, thank you for being on
the podcast, and you've actually reaised more questions in my mind.
I'm excited to talk about it. In our second episode.
So thank you very very much for being on the
podcast today.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
I'd like to thank our guests, doctor Brenda Stockdale for
being on the show today and sharing the experiences that
helped shape her practice, particularly her work with doctor Bernie Siegel.
I'm your host, Tom Masters, reminding you to be back
next week for another episode of Back in Control Radio
with doctor David Hanscombe, and in the meantime, be sure
(29:09):
to visit the website at www dot backincontrol dot com.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Thanks for listening today and join us next week for
Back in Control Radium
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