November 7, 2024 • 45 mins
Europe wants to go green in a hurry. China has EVs to help Europe achieve their goal faster. What's the problem? The problem is that too many Chinese cars are flooding into France, Germany and Italy And that is putting enormous pressure on Europe's auto industry. Making things worse, European brands' sales are skidding in China, which used to be their forever profit machines. VW is now talking about closing three plants and laying off tens of thousands. And we are not even in a recession. Joining me to make sense of the pressure - he calls it a schism - is Roger Atkins, founder of Electric Vehicles Outlook. How will Europe see things through from here? Roger will also share what he loves and what he loves much less about driving his all-electric ID Buzz, the retro bus from VW. Along the way, we will also learn how to say sh-t-show in Chinese. Yes, I promise you there is such a word.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Where top executives and crazy entrepreneurs gathered to talk about
the future of electric vehicles. This is the Driving with
Done Podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Driving with Done Podcasts.
I am your host, Michael Dunn. So here's the deal.
Europe wants to go green in a hurry. China has
(00:23):
evs to help Europe achieve those goals in record time.
Let's go faster. So what's the problem. The problem is
that too many Chinese cars flooding into Europe. That's France,
Germany and Italy is putting enormous pressure on Europe's own
auto industry, making things worse. European brand sales in China
(00:43):
are on the skids. YEP. That used to be their
forever profit machines, but no more profits and sales are vanishing.
In the People's Republic VW, the giant is now talking
about closing three plants and laying off tens of thousands
of employees. Not good, Nicks gut So where to from here?
(01:05):
Joining me to make sense of the pressure he calls
it a schism, is Roger Atkins, founder of Electric Vehicles Outlook.
How will Europe see things through? From here? Roger will
also share what he loves and what he loves much
less about driving his all electric id buzz you know
that retro bus from VW along the way a bonus,
(01:28):
we will learn how to say shit show in Chinese. Yes,
I promise you there is definitely such a word. So
let's begin with Roger Atkins on the Driving with Done podcast.
(01:48):
Hey Roger, good morning, and welcome to the Driving with
Done podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
It's always a bit weird when I hear you say that,
because I'm normally listening to an episode well some of
the other amazing guests. So yeah, you slightly threw me there.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Thank you for joining me today. I know that you're
just in from travel most recently. Well you're all over
the world all the time. But I wanted to ask
you about Paris. You're at the auto show. What were
your takeaways?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, it's a good question. They were good. Let's let's
start with a simple and a one.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Word good vibe optimistic.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, I mean I kind of started the year at
the Geneva Motor Show and whilst personally that was a
highlight for me. I got to be on stage and
interview some pretty wonderful people, a whole whole range of
different people, car designers, Chris Bangle, Luca de Mayo, you know,
(02:47):
Pete Rawlings, all sorts of you know, wonderful people, the
couple that are driven from the north pole to the
South pole. So personally and professionally it was a real highlight.
But let me be honest about it, it was sadly
the last Geneva Motor Show after a century of those events,
and it felt a bit like looking around the hall
(03:07):
holding the hand of an elderly uncle who was about
to pass past. Oh no, yeah, and sadly that happened.
And then to come back to your question, I go
to the Paris show, you know, bookending the year almost
and it was a much more vibrant, lively. It was
like being at the birth of something. So yeah, it
(03:30):
was good. There were plenty of people exhibiting. That was
a big difference. There was lots of people in attendance.
I went on press day, so okay, that's a little
bit of a distortion to the public. But from what
I've seen, it's been well attended all the while through
with the public, well organized, lots of interesting product, a
(03:51):
good mix of Europe, China and USA. Ford were there,
and yeah, it was. It was a tonic. I didn't
know quite what to expect, and what I saw when
I went there, yeah, gave me a bit of a lift,
to be honest.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Among the Chinese brands you saw there, I think I remember,
I think BYD and x Punk and others. Which one
struck you as the most distinguished?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Well, I kind of like x PEG, I suppose partly
because yes, I have been traveling and I must sort
of apologize for that in terms of carbon footprint. But
at the Beijing show I had a good look around
x PEG. I managed to get out and about in
an ex pen car, not driving it myself in China,
as you'd imagine, but yeah, that was impressive. And what
(04:39):
they're doing and what they've been doing so fast impressed
me a lot. And then seeing them present here in
Europe and start bringing cars to market was pretty exciting. BYD,
of course, you know Stella Lee, I'm sure who you
know was the main face on the presentation of BYD
to the press. And again you know this this story
(05:03):
of where China is the Stalantis boss, you know, welcoming
but literally physically embracing that hit hit their Chinese partner
and look like a motor. Yeah, indeed, and i'd heard,
you know, i'd heard the discussion about this the Reuter's
(05:24):
Automotive Europe event. Again kind of I'm lost track of
time this year, but that must have been either March
or April or something, and you know he was talking
there about this is the weird thing. Many of the
OEM's seniors have been talking about partnerships and embracing the
change and the challenge of China by working together with people.
(05:45):
But then EU and certain governments have been the opposite.
They've been about putting the barriers out, putting the tariffs up,
so on and so forth. So if I were Chinese,
I'd be quite confused as to there's going on, who's
doing what, and because in Europe we have this raft
of tariff structure, this different level of teriffs depending upon
(06:09):
I mean, it sounds weird to say, but how people
cooperated with the investigation, you know, that's a that's a
different dynamic. America is like one hundred percent. They go
everybody one hundred percent full stop. So that's like putting
a very high fence up. You know, if I think
of a famous horse race for a moment, Michael the
(06:29):
Grand National. You know, America's put up Beaches Brook. You know,
the fence, the highest one, the one that everyone's scared
of jumping, and maybe they just don't even jump, they
refuse to jump it, whereas the smaller fence is on
that race and that you know, twelve twenty five what
even thirty percent tariffs? Do you know what? And I
(06:51):
kind of I can't say I heard it literally said,
but a few of the commentators you and I know,
well Le Jing and two Lee and others were definitely
have a similar view to me, which is they're just
going to suck it up. In Europe, they're just going
to deal with it. Maybe put the price up a
little bit, but they do want to sell their vehicles,
(07:11):
so they can't do too much of that very weird
place because we've issued you know, the z ZV mandates
the criteria. Yeah. Yeah, and as you know, you're well
documented that this better than many you know, I would
argue they have achieved this situation by having economies of
(07:32):
scale and having vertical integration, particularly around the battery and
especially with a company like BYD, So you can see
how and why they've done this. And the problem now
for Europe is that there's this It is an existential threat.
But it's also a dilemma because on the one hand,
the governments have called for tackling climate ch engine air
(07:54):
quality by embracing a liation. On the other hand, there's
then a market brings in those very cars that a
price that people can afford typically and generally, and they say, well, no,
you can't bring them in. You know, you're too much
of a challenge. We're going to put teriff on them.
So it's I think it's michael.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
That's the word schism. I was going to suggest a
Chinese word for us to learn today. It's mald doing.
Mao is a common mald Doing is a combination of
shield and sword, and that means contradiction.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Doing.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Uh huh shield and sport shielding sort.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Can you teach a bit of China? Chinese? What's a
ship show?
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Luanchy bads out, Lanchy bods out.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
She bounce out. Yeah, that moment, it's a bit of
it's a bit.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Of that because contradictions are bound rogers. So it's a
huge central crisis your Europe. You've got this amazing auto
industry kicking around for one hundred years, producing jobs, great products,
exporting globally, and suddenly you're whoa hit blindsided by the
competition coming out of China. Yes, we want to hit
(09:11):
climate goals. No, we don't want to lose our industry.
What's the way forward? If you're advising Europe the EU,
what would you do?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I think to answer your question, there's, of course, there's
always a several ways of tackling any problem. It's never
one way. But the way I would do it to
answer your question is to do as Bill Russo and
others I know you've advocated this, which is to flip
the script to essentially say, just like the Chinese did
with US twenty twenty five years ago, come come in,
(09:44):
show us what you can do. Joint venture with us.
We will be the major shareholder the JV fifty one
forty nine or whatever. We will set rules and there
will be criteria for you to be in the market.
But it's our market, and that's what we're choosing to do.
I think that's what you're seeing people like Luca de
Mayo and Solantis and Tavares and others look seeking to
(10:08):
do because because it is all, you know, quite quite
tangled up and I think the real big if I
can think of I don't like to use this analogy,
but came into my head just now and I'm going
to use it. That the iceberg that potentially will sink
the Titanic in Europe is the fact that all of
(10:29):
the money that the OEMs thought they were going to
get to manage the transition as dried up. They thought,
or maybe another two, three, four, maybe five years, maybe
even that long, that the continued attraction and the sale
in volume of European product in China would help pay
(10:51):
for the transition. So the kind of perfect storm, which
is not perfect for anyone of course at all, is
that at the very moment they would have been keen
to prop wake up and spend a lot more money
and get stuck in that money is dried up from China.
So look, I've been in the auto industry forty years.
I worked for ten years for the Volkswagen Group. I
(11:12):
have empathy with these people. They're not the enemy, you know,
these these are great organizations with incredible brands, but they
really have found themselves now, you know, down a back
alley getting duffed up a bit and like ask, you know,
shouting for help, and like there's there's no one around
to give them a hand.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
And you're right, no one saw this coming, Roger, this
dramatic collapse of sales in China. So just as you say,
let's take profits from China, fund the ev transition at home,
we'll have great products on both sides, what happens if
China goes away? My goodness, that profit machine is gone.
How do we fund the transition? They're stuck looking around,
(11:54):
smart people, proud traditions, great products, suddenly out of step
with everything. It's not working as planned.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
That's right, And I mean the questions people are asking
is what is the what has been the motivation for
China to do this? Is it? Is it a benign motivation?
In other words, take a new technology like electric vehicles,
clean you know, improve air quality, et cetera, embrace change,
and connect new energy to renewable energy to electrification. I'm sure,
(12:25):
as you will have said many times, it's no coincidence
that they called electric vehicles new energy vehicles. From the
get go. It was always an ambition to make sure
those two things connected up, and indeed they are now.
Ever more so, the question is, is this scenario that we
have now from all of that journey or is it
more to use the opposite word malignant. Is it about domination?
(12:48):
Is it about crushing you know, empires, lots of negative things.
And depending upon which lens you look at it through,
where you happen to be in the world, or your
political persuasion or otherwise, you can make a case for
either one of those. You can.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
My personal view is that it's probably a bit of both.
It's probably a bit of both. It's not necessarily a
binary thing. So and that's now the challenge for people.
But I think, going back to your question, I think
it's to embrace the reality, partner with people and try
and manage it as best you can, because I think
(13:28):
confrontation just triggers a whole bunch of bad stuff. Yeah,
that's what I think. And by the way, there's I
was in Washington, d C. With some pretty incredible people
in terms of their knowledge awareness and where they sit
in the scheme of things, and I alluded to something
that I didn't expect someone to be familiar with, and
they were. They were very familiar with it. It was
(13:49):
called the smoot. Was it scoot? Either scoot or smoot?
Holy Tariff Act, which in nineteen thirty the American agricultural industry,
of farming industry, farming equipment industry, really took halms against
the sea of trouble. To be shakespeare in for a minute,
did you like that?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
You like that? I like that? Yes?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah? And that was imports from Europe were damaging, deeply
damaging the American industry. So they lobbied the government, the
administration to stick in tariffs. What happened next, of course,
Europe retaliated with tariffs. What happened next? This triggered arguably,
(14:34):
and historically many people say it's the case it triggered,
it triggered the Great Depression because it's it basically stimied
world trade. It basically said to people, Okay, if you
don't want our stuff, we don't want your stuff. So
then then trade started to, you know, dramatically reduce. Other
factors were around at the time, of course, but we
(14:56):
have to be careful what we wish for, as it were,
to use.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
That on all right, let's pivot to something lighter for
our conversation. Let's take it down to the I know you,
what are you driving these days? Roger? I'm always curious
to know what you're driving.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Well, as you know, I had been driving for a
couple of years on a lease at Jaguar Eyde Pace.
I've now been driving for two years. And I bought
it out right, which I know to some people sounds crazy,
but I bought it as my company vehicle, so that
helped with the taxation in year one, I could write
write it down as you know, capital allowance, so it
made sense in that regard.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Oh so you bought it right out of the box.
You didn't lease it then buy it? You bought it?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, No, I bought it because my intention was and
still is to keep it for at least five years.
I bought Volksfugg and I d buzz all right.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Color, it's the.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Mixture of candy white and I can't remember the name
of the blue, but it's the two tone.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
The blue blue and white. Beautiful. So I d buzz.
Tell us a little bit about it for people who
are less familiar with the what's it look like? And
why did you get that vehicle? What else did you
look at?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Okay, I got it for functionality. It is it is.
It's not an suv obviously, not cars or sort of
a state or anything.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
More like a bus, right, more like the yeah, yeah, yeah,
you know, I'm sorry, not the Beatle. What was that
called way back then?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
That was the God It look well like the camper
van thing. Yeah, I've been tuned too much of my
head has befuddled. But essentially it's a van. It's an MPV,
a multi purpose vehicle or in my life. And the
reason I got it is it's a d u V.
Do you know what a d UV is? Oh?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Everyone knows a d UV?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
What is it? Dog? You go.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Vehicle?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
You got it?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
No?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Tell us no utility vehicle. Vehicle has dimensions and a
structure in which I can in the back a great, big,
secure dog crate for two Hungarian vizzlers, Hendrix and Presley,
and unlike being chucked in the back of the jag
which I like to drive, they didn't like to be
(17:12):
driven in it. So it was I was influenced, not
by an influencer on Instagram. I was influenced by the dogs.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
How did they communicate that? Look? You know?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah? I mean I've been married for forty years. My
wife is a beautiful person in every way, but there
is something that anyone listening has been married a long time,
not just saying women can do it, but women have
definitely perfected the art in particular of the look. The
look look, and it doesn't need any words, but just
(17:47):
the look tells you you know that you're doing the
right or the wrong thing. And I think the dogs
kind of gave me a look. Ah, I responded, so yeah,
I'd well, nearly two years this December, I will have
been driving around in the butt twenty five thousand miles
in the buzz these past two years.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Almost scale of one to ten. Joy fac like, are
you a nine? Are you a ten? How happy are
you with the product?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I'd give it eight and a half, you know to
be Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the look of it.
I love the ride height because it is, you know,
man style. There is so much I like about it,
But there are a few things that disappointed me, which
I would like to share and pass on with people.
Because I know it's now in America, people can order
it and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
That's what we're here to listen to. We want to
know where could it be better?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Okay? Do I regret buying it? No? Am I enjoy
owning it? Yes? What are some of the frustrating things. Well,
if you look at good bad, and the bad was communication.
The communication between Volkswagen and indeed the dealer that I
had to buy it from. You have to buy it
(18:57):
from a deal you can't buy direct. The communications terrible.
It was just so poor. I had to do all
the chasing. Okay, they didn't make me buy it. I
did choose to buy it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
But either was an enthusiastic about selling or what was
a breakdown there?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
No, it wasn't. It wasn't they weren't enthusiastic, but it
was just that number one, they didn't have all the specs,
which you could argue, of course wasn't their fault. That
wasn't from Volkswagen.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
So the.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Spec that I ordered I was told included everything which
was like a powered gate, powered doors, few other bits
and pieces. And then you know when I got it,
when I went and picked it up, it didn't have
those things, and I thought it initially it was a misbuild,
but it wasn't. But you know, look, that's that's a
kind of first world problem.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
You know, it's it's not still still we expect to
you know, that's a big purchase item. We'd expect it
to be right.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yes, that's correct. But in between ordering the vehicle and
getting it, I'm the one making the cause. Can you
tell me where the vehicle is? Can you tell me
how long will I be getting it? X, Y and Z,
and yeah, I that wasn't really very good, not really,
And then getting the vehicle handover was okay. Bear in mind,
(20:08):
this is a commercial vehicle, so it's building Hanover, It's
not bil On, Wolfsburg or somewhere else. And then subsequently
from the dealer I choose to get it from, who
was a combined commercial and car dealership I've subsequently used
for service and I've only had to use it twice
three times used a pure commercial vehicle dealer. So number
(20:29):
one tip I pass on is this, choose to choose
your dealer carefully and work with a commercial vehicle dealer specialist.
They know how to deal with business people. They tend
to be in my experience now, just more efficient, more professional,
ring your back, do all the right things. So that
would be a number one tip.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So just range on your vehicle.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
In the summertime, I've had as much as two hundred
and fifty actually, and then winter it can go down
to one hundred ninety. But bear in mind, I've got
that big dog crate in the back, which weighs a bit.
I've got two big dogs I stick in the back,
so you know, the range certainly with the dogs will
will will be diminished in that regard. I think that's
(21:14):
kind of inevitable. But most of the time it's myself
and maybe a customer or a friend or someone like
that in the vehicle. It isn't rarely kind of filled
up with three people in the back and two passengers
and the dogs. But you know that I have used
it that way. Yeah. Second tip, double check your spec,
check what you've ordered. Be absolutely certain that you're not
(21:36):
going to be disappointed in what you've got. Third thing,
and I've read some of comments from people about the price,
and yeah, I think it is. It is an expensive vehicle.
But you know, you don't have to buy it. They
don't make you buy it. You choose to buy it.
And let me tell you, my friend and all my
friends in America, for the spec you get spec for
(21:57):
spec pound for pound dollar for a dollar, you're getting
a better vehicle cheaper. You know, if you look at
the you get the long wheelbase, you get the panoramic
sun roof, you get, you know, a bunch of things
inside the vehicle that are oven above anything that was
either a as an option in the UK. I mean
we've only got short wheelbase initially. Now we've got the LWB.
(22:20):
But you know, in regard for value for money, I
would say the US spec is much better value for
money than the one we've had in the UK. So
so stop your winging, you know, take it for what
it is.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Where do the prices start in the UK, just for comparison.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, they're kind of you know, mid fifty five thousand's.
I mean my vehicle which I took pounds, yeah, pounds, so.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Seventy it would be about that, is it?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah something? And then the speck I got, which I
thought was the top spec, which kind of was you know,
launch editions, that was sixty five thousand pounds and I
ordered a few I did order a few extras and
things in it, the retractable electric tow bar the back
and a few other bits and pieces. But but yeah,
(23:11):
so that's kind of where I've got to with it,
and driven it twenty five thousand miles. The steering wheel.
Let's just come on to the ugly. The steering wheel
he uses. Yeah, the steering wheel uses vegan leather. It's
just not up to the job. I've had to have
it replaced once and I'm about to have it replaced
a second time, which to.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Me is not incredible German. Yes, uh huh, yes, wow.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
So that's that's been a disappointment because you know, the
steering wheel is something you're using all the time. Of
course you are. It's your connection to the road through
through the steering column, et cetera. And it starts to
flake and it really deiates. It looks like something. Yeah,
it looks like it's either got a disease or it's
one hundred and nine years old. That's what my sin
(24:00):
is going to look like when I celebrate my one
hundredth birthday, which isn't soon by the way. So so,
but then to replace it with basically the identical kit,
it's like madness because you know what's going to happen
over time, and you read the forums and go on
any of them and you'll see people have it. And
(24:20):
then two things happen to people. Either they end up
having an argument with the dealer, and it seems sometimes
even Volkswagen which in my case that I didn't have
to have that. You know, I I had a friend
actually in Fenness who had a word with somebody. Yeah,
so let's be straight up and down here. A friend
of mine who had a word with somebody at Volkswagen
gave me the kind of part number for the replacement piece.
(24:45):
And then when I approached the dealer, I said, look,
I know this is an issue. Please let's not have
an argument. I've actually got a part number here. You know,
someone a Volkswagen has given it to me, so can
we please just sort that out? And they were like, yeah,
of course, we're really sorry. You know, we'll sort it out.
And they were great. You know, it didn't take too
long to replace it. I went and and they did
it while I waited, So you know, all of that
(25:06):
is good. But it shouldn't be happening at all.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
No, it shouldn't on any German. So is that sort
of a rap? I'm trying to imagine. It's a wrap
around the steering wheel and then it took twenty minutes?
What to replace? Or how long did you wait for
the fix?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Complete new steering wheel?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Night? A new steering wheel? Oh my goodness, what.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
How much does that cost them? How much does that
under warranty? You know, great, I didn't pay. Why should I?
It would have been a crazy I would have gone crazy.
But how much is that custom? You know, in a
world where we know people are increasingly unchallenged in terms
of profitability, you just you've got to manage your warranty,
(25:47):
you know, bills, your recall costs as best you can
without inhibiting and damaging your brand equity and all the
rest of that. You shouldn't be shipping stuff you know
is going to fail, and certainly not ship it twice because.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
That's like just a steering wheel, Roger. I mean, if
you had said something really related to the battery or software. Okay, yeah, understood,
they have issues there, But the steering wheel. They've been
making these for one hundred years, well they have, they.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Haven't used the vegan leather thing. Whoever selected the leather
didn't do it right, I mean, okay, okay, that's a
quick moment. On the software.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, let's talk software. I'm super curious because from memory,
your previous vehicle you loved in every way except for
that digital interface or issues there too. What's your experience
with VW.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Well remembered my friend. I would say it's marginally better,
but only marginally. I don't want to bitch too much
about it, because you know, it's kind of well documented.
But as much as it is disappointing, especially compared to
many other vehicles, if I'm really honest, it hasn't like
spoilt my experience. You know, it's all almost like it's
(27:01):
almost sounds bad to say this, but like I know
it's going to be a little bit rubbish. So that's
where my expectation is set and it's met. So you know, yeah,
I don't want to sound horrible saying that, because look,
there are loads of boys and girls at Volkswagen who
work hard and do a great job, you know. And
like I said, I've said a couple of times, no
(27:21):
one made me get the vehicle. I knew this was
a weak point of Volkswagen at the moment, but you know,
I've been totally seduced by the functionality of the vehicle,
the look and shape of the vehicle, the drive of
the vehicle, many many things which are positive.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
It's enjoyable, you know, and you're still enjoyable. Can you
give us an example of where the software goes sideways.
What are things that make it clunky or not so
user friendly.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
It's laggy and slow, and sometimes when you're booting up
it doesn't come on when it should. Sometimes when you
stick it in reverse and you're reversing the camera, it
doesn't always come up sort of straight away. It's a
timing issue sometimes on again, it's not the end of
the world problem. But you can choose to have a
different color scheme. So you can have orange, of red, green,
(28:11):
blue on the display all around it. Yes, nice if
you've got color matched interior and you stick it and
it all looks nice. So I've got the blue one
as I mentioned, you know, so you configure the thing
to you know, color appearance are blue. So all lights
up blue. That's great. The next thing you turn it on,
the next thing, next time, it's gone back to the
original color.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
The no.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Like it just doesn't remember stuff. Maybe it's trying to
match me as a sixty six year old and thinking, well,
you're an elderly, an older gentleman who forgets things, so
I'll be just like you. Maybe maybe it's matching me
in that way.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
The car is now giving you a look. Roger the
Dogs now the car is giving you a look. The
software is saying we were going to have it this way.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I think it is, and now here's an other thing
quickly on this one. So I went for the twelve
inch screen rather than ten inch screen. That was one
of the options I chose because I just thought it
looks bigger and looks better. Yes, but at the bottom
where you've got both volume control and lighting controls, they
are not illuminated, so at night you can't actually see them.
What I can't understand, and you know the industry as
(29:20):
I do. How when there was the product planning meeting
and someone proposed this and went, you know, to the
manager of the team, so this is what we're going
to do and this is how it's going to work.
And someone would have said, but what about at night?
How will people see what the controls are at night?
Someone must have asked that question, and I can only
assume that someone would have said, well, how much would
(29:43):
it cost to illuminate it? And let's say ten dollars, No,
we can cost down, you know, the cost down thing
one out over the what will the customer want? What's
a good thing and anything that's a control, whether it's
volume or heating that you need to use at night
and you can't see, and you've got a fumble for
I would argue is a safety related item. I agreed,
(30:05):
it's where you know, it's a distraction to the driver
who should be paying attention to the road and not
having to think, well, where is everything?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, you were at Volkswagen, Roger. I was at General
Motors for years and you I do remember these calls
where you have the engineers on the six engineers in
different locations than you have the financial people, and they say,
here's our number, this is, this is. We can't go
over this number in terms of spending.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, so what are we going to take out?
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Absolutely now? Now another thing to answer your question the app.
So you have, as everybody has these days, an app
for your phone to control your car as best as possible. Now,
when it comes to charging, this thing is all over
the place. The charger that I use is from a
company called only ohn E. They're very very good. Their
(30:56):
app in relation to talking about the car and it's
charging protocols, et cetera, is better than the Volkswagen app.
I know more about my car when it's charging, and
I can control the charge with this app, the Charge
the Charger app, than I can the Vehicle's Vehicles app,
And sometimes it says it's one hundred percent charged and
(31:16):
it will display one hundred and twenty miles. Well, I
know that's wrong.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Wait, that's the VW app. Does that?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yes, today, I don't want to go back to the
VW app. I just don't want to deal with it
until they get it right. You tuggle over to your Omi,
is it Omi?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah? Only? So the only the thing I used to
configure the charger to set the charger, So I obviously
charge cheap at night because I don't need to do
all the miles every day. So I charge between you know,
midnight and five in the morning. And I set that
all up with the only app, which configures very nicely
with the car. You know, it knows it's my car,
the Volkswagen Bus, et cetera, et cetera. You know, so
(31:54):
the software capability of the Charge the Charger company is
superior to the software capability of the people who made
the damn kid in the first place, which is not
I cannot get my head around how you know, we
get into the whole carryad thing how can a company
spend billions on something and not and get it so
(32:15):
badly wrong? And when you hear Elon and other people
talk about innovation and development not happening in big companies,
it's a part of the time. They've got too many people,
too many hierarchies, too many power grabs, too many tribes,
too many things where you know, the innovation, if it
is there, and I'm sure it is, gets stifled.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Get stifled. That's right.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
And when people talk about China, you know, vertical integration, yes, government, yes,
all the things we talk about. But you know what,
it's also about culture. It's the culture of embracing innovation
from wherever it comes in a company and allowing it
to find its place. And you know, you know that
phrase that you and I in many Westerns are familiar with,
(33:00):
Oh that's way above my pay grade, you know, to
get involved in that that. You don't get that in
small companies. You know, I've talked to Marte Rimatz about
this in the past. You don't get that in small
companies where the teams work collectively together. If someone's got
a good idea, they stick the hand up, and whoever
they are, it's a bit, you've got a good idea,
(33:21):
what is it again? And to quote another name, Bob Gallian,
employee number two at c at L, told me this
the same thing in how that company really rose to
the occasion. A lot of that was about being democratic
in terms of finding the solutions. The solutions don't come
from the top, they come from everywhere, everywhere, And so
(33:43):
I think, you know, maybe one of the things that's
changed in the United States over the years, you know,
it's incredibly entrepreneurial country, is that bureaucracy and politics and
stuff has got in the way. And it's definitely what's
got in the way in Germany. Now Germany now for
the very everything that built its empire. You could argue
the same for Japan is now the very thing that
(34:05):
holds it back. You know, that hierarchical you know, respect
of everybody above you. You're just down here, You're not
up there. All of that stuff. You know, we can
all see now that it's sometimes needed to help manage organizations,
but a lot of the time it's just bullshit.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
A couple of weeks back, I was in Paris and
had an opportunity to have dinner with a Volvo executive
who now works for Zeker, so he knows he's Swedish,
he knows Vovo culture, he knows Zeker culture. I said,
what about the future of Europe's auto industry. Who's most vulnerable?
Right away he said the Germans are most vulnerable, which
took me aback, like, wait a second. The Germans, they're
(34:45):
the backbone of the industry in Europe. And he said,
for the reasons you're talking about Roger right now. They
just find it really hard to move away from the
structures and the processes that have been baked in for somebody,
it's really hard to get there, get it, to get
onto a different page.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yes, yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
A new world. We're into a new chapter and whether
we like it or not, we better we better adjust
to real.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Talk about a new chapter. Something popped up only yesterday
on LinkedIn. Herbert d s a picture of a vehicle
bi directionally charging working with the Mobility House, and you know,
it kind of just made me say, oh God, there's
Herbert Deese, the guy that Volkswagen fired, the guy that
(35:33):
gave Robin saying his break way back with COTL when
he Robin was at TDK, the guy that inspired and
triggered the BMW journey into electrification. It's like, oh, my goodness, me,
it's seeing the ghost of Christmas pas. I just and
(35:56):
you kind of think, so, I don't know. I didn't
work a Volkswagen at the time, but I think back
a few years think why might he have got fired?
Got fired because he was saying to the unions, we're
going to have to have fewer people when we make
electric vehicles for the obvious reasons. They didn't like that
friendly with Elon Musk, you know, and saying his cars
are really wonderful. He's doing a really good job. They
(36:17):
didn't like that. I don't like that, and maybe some
other things. CARRYAD, you know, it's like someone's going to
take the can. You know it's going to be you.
And I think that the Peck family, you know, the
side of supervisory board people, they just didn't. They shot
the messenger, you know, and from because what I understand,
some of what he was starting to do to try
(36:39):
and reinvigorate carry AD might well have worked, but they
didn't do it. Here we are years or more on
the very thing that he was he had advocated they
start to do. Then they didn't do when the new
Geezer came in, they're now starting to do they haven't
listened to some of these people who did know the
way forward, and now yeah, now they're paying a very serious.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Serious price, including announcements potential plank closings in Germany.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, but this was always going to happen when you
were making electric vehicles with substantial, significantly fewer parts. Yes,
but we've got to have the conversation with people in
an honest way and talk about it up front, which
is what Herbert Decent was he did.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
He was candid and direct. Big mistake, Roger. We have
just a couple of minutes left here. I'd like to
pivot once more back to the island where you reside,
known as what Great Britain.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Indeed it is.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yes, it's become the single largest market for electric vehicles,
surpassing Germany, I guess last month for the first time.
So that made headlines earlier this week. Looks like the
UK has really come out of nowhere to take leadership
in electrics. What's going on over there?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Well, you say, come out of nowhere, let's just stink
of some numbers. So in twenty twenty, at the end
of twenty twenty, there were two hundred and five thousand
electric cars and a few more, as I recall, which
wasn't even one percent of all the cars on the
road since then. At the end of October this year,
so just a few days ago, there were just under
(38:19):
one point three million fully electric cars in the UK.
So that's a kind of what was that fivefold a
bit more fivefold increase? And so despite what people think
and say, you know, there we are, and I mean,
and to give you a flavor of world, what are they?
I think I've got some data. I'm going to read it.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Actually, yeah, Roger, So one point three million, that's cumulative.
And then I think in the month of October the
UK surpassed Germany become the single highest selling single mark
with the highest number of EV sales. I think is
where we'd turn it? What are those products?
Speaker 2 (38:55):
I haven't got the number two hand I five minutes.
I could probably find it somewhere. Oh yeah, Otober it
was twenty nine thousand, eight hundred and two. Yeah, which
took us for the year year to date October to BEV.
So this is BEV, not PEV. Or anything else. Yes,
(39:16):
eight hundred and two in October, which cumulatively was two
hundred and ninety nine thousand, seven hundred and thirty three.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
For the year.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah, for the year. So despite what people think and say,
and of course a lot of this is well where
it emanates from, I'm not quite sure. But people that
just jump on a bandwagon or hear a bit of
something and then just elaborate on it nonsensically, it's just
not the case. I mean, Tesla, you know, model wise
(39:44):
right up there, Volksbug and ID four and KNA, Hyundai,
the Kia Key and E Neiro. These are really popular cars.
You see lots of them on the road. And of
course the intriguing thing here we've got Chinese fair of course,
so we've got got the MG that does very well here,
Mustang Mackie that's always in somewhere near the top ten, Skoda.
(40:06):
But the curious thing is we're now starting to see
Chinese evs on the road in the UK.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
You mentioned what MG Roger is byd on your list
to or not yet.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Not yet, no, not yet, But the cars are here
now people. In fact, I've been out with an influencer
you and I are storytellers. I don't think we'll make
a distinction. We're not we're not influencers, but influencers do
do just that. And on I have a friend who
does that for fashion on Instagram and she's now been
(40:39):
driving byd product, never driven an EV in her life,
and is just bolbed over with it, very impressed. So so,
you know, we haven't seen the Chinese cars yet here
in number. And here's the thing. The UK government, and
we've got a new one, hasn't yet said what if
anything the tariff regime is going to be on Chinese cars.
(40:59):
You know what it is in America and you know
what it is in Europe, you know, But in the
UK at the moment, it's you know, the silence has
been deafening.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Silence is deafening. You're right. EU is just in the
midst of hitting China with all kinds of terriffs, different
levels depending on the automaker. After their investigation into what
they call an anti subsidy probe, so they found that
the Chinese automakes were subsidizing their car they've slapped them
with higher duties across Europe. Just got on that last month.
(41:31):
But as you say, the UK is holding out saying,
you know, no, we'll take our Chinese cars for now.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Well, I mean, it's so curious how this journey is.
You know, it could be that in doing that, you're
basically enticing as a quid pro quote you say to
Chinese o EM's I'll tell you what, We're not going
to put tariffs on your cars. We like them, they're good,
but come here and do joint ventures with us factories.
(42:01):
You know the play that you you reference many times
in your commentary, you know, turn the tables, flip the script,
call it what you will. If I was, you know,
anywhere near turned Downing Street, that's kind of the advice
i'd give them. I would say, collaborate. Here's an opportunity.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Roger, thank you so much for making time with us today.
Always enjoy your conversations and your stories. And do you
remember how to say shit show in Chinese? So we're
gonna we'll end with that one, Blanche bads out, bads
out perfect perfect, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, Michael, it's a long sea chattel.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Awesome, Roger, thank you again, and I hope you see
you on the road.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
Likewise, there you have it, folks.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
And up to date report live from the United Kingdom
with Roger Atkins. So the illustrious Roger Atkins, a guy
who travels all over the world all the time, has
excellent network, knows his stuff and delivers it with yeah,
charm and pizzazz. British accent does help. I have to admit,
(43:19):
all right, what did we learn from Roger today?
Speaker 3 (43:22):
For me?
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Three highlights? One most important, Europe is under enormous pressure
right now because on the one hand, it's pursuing very
aggressive climate goals, while at the same time there's a risk.
In order to meet those climate goals, they sort of
want to import Chinese evs, but they sort of don't
want to because those evs may just overwhelm European industry.
(43:47):
That means job losses and tax revenue losses and incomes. No,
how do we get there? This is a huge dilemma.
Number Two, he loves his vwid Buzz except for the
software and the steering wheel. So you know, he said,
(44:08):
just set your expectations accordingly, great car to drive, but
you guys can fill in the blank. And Third, probably
most fascinating for me, was his commentary on German and
Japanese automis. It's been you know, this fixation about precision,
attention to detail, discipline structures that have allowed those two
(44:31):
proud countries to build some of the finest automobiles over
the last one hundred years. But now suddenly the game's changed.
We've moved to speed and software being the differentiators, and
it's really caused all kinds of chaos for these cultures
that have been around so long. Will they be able
(44:51):
to adapt to the new era or not stay tuned?
We don't know. It's up in the air. Thank you
all so much for joining this episode. My name is
Michael Dunn, and this is the Driving with Done podcast
where you meet the experts creating the technologies that will
power tomorrow's cars electric autonomous software. To find This is
(45:15):
a Driving with Done podcast. Thank you for joining this
episode of the Driving with Done podcast. To connect with
Michael Dunn, visit doninsights dot com or find Michael on
x or LinkedIn.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
This is the Driving With Done podcast.
Where top executives and crazy entrepreneurs gathered to talk about
the future of electric vehicles. This is the Driving with
Done Podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Driving with Done Podcasts.
I am your host, Michael Dunn. So here's the deal.
Europe wants to go green in a hurry. China has
(00:23):
evs to help Europe achieve those goals in record time.
Let's go faster. So what's the problem. The problem is
that too many Chinese cars flooding into Europe. That's France,
Germany and Italy is putting enormous pressure on Europe's own
auto industry, making things worse. European brand sales in China
(00:43):
are on the skids. YEP. That used to be their
forever profit machines, but no more profits and sales are vanishing.
In the People's Republic VW, the giant is now talking
about closing three plants and laying off tens of thousands
of employees. Not good, Nicks gut So where to from here?
(01:05):
Joining me to make sense of the pressure he calls
it a schism, is Roger Atkins, founder of Electric Vehicles Outlook.
How will Europe see things through? From here? Roger will
also share what he loves and what he loves much
less about driving his all electric id buzz you know
that retro bus from VW along the way a bonus,
(01:28):
we will learn how to say shit show in Chinese. Yes,
I promise you there is definitely such a word. So
let's begin with Roger Atkins on the Driving with Done podcast.
(01:48):
Hey Roger, good morning, and welcome to the Driving with
Done podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
It's always a bit weird when I hear you say that,
because I'm normally listening to an episode well some of
the other amazing guests. So yeah, you slightly threw me there.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Thank you for joining me today. I know that you're
just in from travel most recently. Well you're all over
the world all the time. But I wanted to ask
you about Paris. You're at the auto show. What were
your takeaways?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, it's a good question. They were good. Let's let's
start with a simple and a one.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Word good vibe optimistic.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, I mean I kind of started the year at
the Geneva Motor Show and whilst personally that was a
highlight for me. I got to be on stage and
interview some pretty wonderful people, a whole whole range of
different people, car designers, Chris Bangle, Luca de Mayo, you know,
(02:47):
Pete Rawlings, all sorts of you know, wonderful people, the
couple that are driven from the north pole to the
South pole. So personally and professionally it was a real highlight.
But let me be honest about it, it was sadly
the last Geneva Motor Show after a century of those events,
and it felt a bit like looking around the hall
(03:07):
holding the hand of an elderly uncle who was about
to pass past. Oh no, yeah, and sadly that happened.
And then to come back to your question, I go
to the Paris show, you know, bookending the year almost
and it was a much more vibrant, lively. It was
like being at the birth of something. So yeah, it
(03:30):
was good. There were plenty of people exhibiting. That was
a big difference. There was lots of people in attendance.
I went on press day, so okay, that's a little
bit of a distortion to the public. But from what
I've seen, it's been well attended all the while through
with the public, well organized, lots of interesting product, a
(03:51):
good mix of Europe, China and USA. Ford were there,
and yeah, it was. It was a tonic. I didn't
know quite what to expect, and what I saw when
I went there, yeah, gave me a bit of a lift,
to be honest.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Among the Chinese brands you saw there, I think I remember,
I think BYD and x Punk and others. Which one
struck you as the most distinguished?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Well, I kind of like x PEG, I suppose partly
because yes, I have been traveling and I must sort
of apologize for that in terms of carbon footprint. But
at the Beijing show I had a good look around
x PEG. I managed to get out and about in
an ex pen car, not driving it myself in China,
as you'd imagine, but yeah, that was impressive. And what
(04:39):
they're doing and what they've been doing so fast impressed
me a lot. And then seeing them present here in
Europe and start bringing cars to market was pretty exciting. BYD,
of course, you know Stella Lee, I'm sure who you
know was the main face on the presentation of BYD
to the press. And again you know this this story
(05:03):
of where China is the Stalantis boss, you know, welcoming
but literally physically embracing that hit hit their Chinese partner
and look like a motor. Yeah, indeed, and i'd heard,
you know, i'd heard the discussion about this the Reuter's
(05:24):
Automotive Europe event. Again kind of I'm lost track of
time this year, but that must have been either March
or April or something, and you know he was talking
there about this is the weird thing. Many of the
OEM's seniors have been talking about partnerships and embracing the
change and the challenge of China by working together with people.
(05:45):
But then EU and certain governments have been the opposite.
They've been about putting the barriers out, putting the tariffs up,
so on and so forth. So if I were Chinese,
I'd be quite confused as to there's going on, who's
doing what, and because in Europe we have this raft
of tariff structure, this different level of teriffs depending upon
(06:09):
I mean, it sounds weird to say, but how people
cooperated with the investigation, you know, that's a that's a
different dynamic. America is like one hundred percent. They go
everybody one hundred percent full stop. So that's like putting
a very high fence up. You know, if I think
of a famous horse race for a moment, Michael the
(06:29):
Grand National. You know, America's put up Beaches Brook. You know,
the fence, the highest one, the one that everyone's scared
of jumping, and maybe they just don't even jump, they
refuse to jump it, whereas the smaller fence is on
that race and that you know, twelve twenty five what
even thirty percent tariffs? Do you know what? And I
(06:51):
kind of I can't say I heard it literally said,
but a few of the commentators you and I know,
well Le Jing and two Lee and others were definitely
have a similar view to me, which is they're just
going to suck it up. In Europe, they're just going
to deal with it. Maybe put the price up a
little bit, but they do want to sell their vehicles,
(07:11):
so they can't do too much of that very weird
place because we've issued you know, the z ZV mandates
the criteria. Yeah. Yeah, and as you know, you're well
documented that this better than many you know, I would
argue they have achieved this situation by having economies of
(07:32):
scale and having vertical integration, particularly around the battery and
especially with a company like BYD, So you can see
how and why they've done this. And the problem now
for Europe is that there's this It is an existential threat.
But it's also a dilemma because on the one hand,
the governments have called for tackling climate ch engine air
(07:54):
quality by embracing a liation. On the other hand, there's
then a market brings in those very cars that a
price that people can afford typically and generally, and they say, well, no,
you can't bring them in. You know, you're too much
of a challenge. We're going to put teriff on them.
So it's I think it's michael.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
That's the word schism. I was going to suggest a
Chinese word for us to learn today. It's mald doing.
Mao is a common mald Doing is a combination of
shield and sword, and that means contradiction.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Doing.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Uh huh shield and sport shielding sort.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Can you teach a bit of China? Chinese? What's a
ship show?
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Luanchy bads out, Lanchy bods out.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
She bounce out. Yeah, that moment, it's a bit of
it's a bit.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Of that because contradictions are bound rogers. So it's a
huge central crisis your Europe. You've got this amazing auto
industry kicking around for one hundred years, producing jobs, great products,
exporting globally, and suddenly you're whoa hit blindsided by the
competition coming out of China. Yes, we want to hit
(09:11):
climate goals. No, we don't want to lose our industry.
What's the way forward? If you're advising Europe the EU,
what would you do?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I think to answer your question, there's, of course, there's
always a several ways of tackling any problem. It's never
one way. But the way I would do it to
answer your question is to do as Bill Russo and
others I know you've advocated this, which is to flip
the script to essentially say, just like the Chinese did
with US twenty twenty five years ago, come come in,
(09:44):
show us what you can do. Joint venture with us.
We will be the major shareholder the JV fifty one
forty nine or whatever. We will set rules and there
will be criteria for you to be in the market.
But it's our market, and that's what we're choosing to do.
I think that's what you're seeing people like Luca de
Mayo and Solantis and Tavares and others look seeking to
(10:08):
do because because it is all, you know, quite quite
tangled up and I think the real big if I
can think of I don't like to use this analogy,
but came into my head just now and I'm going
to use it. That the iceberg that potentially will sink
the Titanic in Europe is the fact that all of
(10:29):
the money that the OEMs thought they were going to
get to manage the transition as dried up. They thought,
or maybe another two, three, four, maybe five years, maybe
even that long, that the continued attraction and the sale
in volume of European product in China would help pay
(10:51):
for the transition. So the kind of perfect storm, which
is not perfect for anyone of course at all, is
that at the very moment they would have been keen
to prop wake up and spend a lot more money
and get stuck in that money is dried up from China.
So look, I've been in the auto industry forty years.
I worked for ten years for the Volkswagen Group. I
(11:12):
have empathy with these people. They're not the enemy, you know,
these these are great organizations with incredible brands, but they
really have found themselves now, you know, down a back
alley getting duffed up a bit and like ask, you know,
shouting for help, and like there's there's no one around
to give them a hand.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
And you're right, no one saw this coming, Roger, this
dramatic collapse of sales in China. So just as you say,
let's take profits from China, fund the ev transition at home,
we'll have great products on both sides, what happens if
China goes away? My goodness, that profit machine is gone.
How do we fund the transition? They're stuck looking around,
(11:54):
smart people, proud traditions, great products, suddenly out of step
with everything. It's not working as planned.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
That's right, And I mean the questions people are asking
is what is the what has been the motivation for
China to do this? Is it? Is it a benign motivation?
In other words, take a new technology like electric vehicles,
clean you know, improve air quality, et cetera, embrace change,
and connect new energy to renewable energy to electrification. I'm sure,
(12:25):
as you will have said many times, it's no coincidence
that they called electric vehicles new energy vehicles. From the
get go. It was always an ambition to make sure
those two things connected up, and indeed they are now.
Ever more so, the question is, is this scenario that we
have now from all of that journey or is it
more to use the opposite word malignant. Is it about domination?
(12:48):
Is it about crushing you know, empires, lots of negative things.
And depending upon which lens you look at it through,
where you happen to be in the world, or your
political persuasion or otherwise, you can make a case for
either one of those. You can.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
My personal view is that it's probably a bit of both.
It's probably a bit of both. It's not necessarily a
binary thing. So and that's now the challenge for people.
But I think, going back to your question, I think
it's to embrace the reality, partner with people and try
and manage it as best you can, because I think
(13:28):
confrontation just triggers a whole bunch of bad stuff. Yeah,
that's what I think. And by the way, there's I
was in Washington, d C. With some pretty incredible people
in terms of their knowledge awareness and where they sit
in the scheme of things, and I alluded to something
that I didn't expect someone to be familiar with, and
they were. They were very familiar with it. It was
(13:49):
called the smoot. Was it scoot? Either scoot or smoot?
Holy Tariff Act, which in nineteen thirty the American agricultural industry,
of farming industry, farming equipment industry, really took halms against
the sea of trouble. To be shakespeare in for a minute,
did you like that?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
You like that? I like that? Yes?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah? And that was imports from Europe were damaging, deeply
damaging the American industry. So they lobbied the government, the
administration to stick in tariffs. What happened next, of course,
Europe retaliated with tariffs. What happened next? This triggered arguably,
(14:34):
and historically many people say it's the case it triggered,
it triggered the Great Depression because it's it basically stimied
world trade. It basically said to people, Okay, if you
don't want our stuff, we don't want your stuff. So
then then trade started to, you know, dramatically reduce. Other
factors were around at the time, of course, but we
(14:56):
have to be careful what we wish for, as it were,
to use.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
That on all right, let's pivot to something lighter for
our conversation. Let's take it down to the I know you,
what are you driving these days? Roger? I'm always curious
to know what you're driving.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Well, as you know, I had been driving for a
couple of years on a lease at Jaguar Eyde Pace.
I've now been driving for two years. And I bought
it out right, which I know to some people sounds crazy,
but I bought it as my company vehicle, so that
helped with the taxation in year one, I could write
write it down as you know, capital allowance, so it
made sense in that regard.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Oh so you bought it right out of the box.
You didn't lease it then buy it? You bought it?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, No, I bought it because my intention was and
still is to keep it for at least five years.
I bought Volksfugg and I d buzz all right.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Color, it's the.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Mixture of candy white and I can't remember the name
of the blue, but it's the two tone.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
The blue blue and white. Beautiful. So I d buzz.
Tell us a little bit about it for people who
are less familiar with the what's it look like? And
why did you get that vehicle? What else did you
look at?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Okay, I got it for functionality. It is it is.
It's not an suv obviously, not cars or sort of
a state or anything.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
More like a bus, right, more like the yeah, yeah, yeah,
you know, I'm sorry, not the Beatle. What was that
called way back then?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
That was the God It look well like the camper
van thing. Yeah, I've been tuned too much of my
head has befuddled. But essentially it's a van. It's an MPV,
a multi purpose vehicle or in my life. And the
reason I got it is it's a d u V.
Do you know what a d UV is? Oh?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Everyone knows a d UV?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
What is it? Dog? You go.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Vehicle?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
You got it?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
No?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Tell us no utility vehicle. Vehicle has dimensions and a
structure in which I can in the back a great, big,
secure dog crate for two Hungarian vizzlers, Hendrix and Presley,
and unlike being chucked in the back of the jag
which I like to drive, they didn't like to be
(17:12):
driven in it. So it was I was influenced, not
by an influencer on Instagram. I was influenced by the dogs.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
How did they communicate that? Look? You know?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah? I mean I've been married for forty years. My
wife is a beautiful person in every way, but there
is something that anyone listening has been married a long time,
not just saying women can do it, but women have
definitely perfected the art in particular of the look. The
look look, and it doesn't need any words, but just
(17:47):
the look tells you you know that you're doing the
right or the wrong thing. And I think the dogs
kind of gave me a look. Ah, I responded, so yeah,
I'd well, nearly two years this December, I will have
been driving around in the butt twenty five thousand miles
in the buzz these past two years.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Almost scale of one to ten. Joy fac like, are
you a nine? Are you a ten? How happy are
you with the product?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I'd give it eight and a half, you know to
be Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the look of it.
I love the ride height because it is, you know,
man style. There is so much I like about it,
But there are a few things that disappointed me, which
I would like to share and pass on with people.
Because I know it's now in America, people can order
it and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
That's what we're here to listen to. We want to
know where could it be better?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Okay? Do I regret buying it? No? Am I enjoy
owning it? Yes? What are some of the frustrating things. Well,
if you look at good bad, and the bad was communication.
The communication between Volkswagen and indeed the dealer that I
had to buy it from. You have to buy it
(18:57):
from a deal you can't buy direct. The communications terrible.
It was just so poor. I had to do all
the chasing. Okay, they didn't make me buy it. I
did choose to buy it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
But either was an enthusiastic about selling or what was
a breakdown there?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
No, it wasn't. It wasn't they weren't enthusiastic, but it
was just that number one, they didn't have all the specs,
which you could argue, of course wasn't their fault. That
wasn't from Volkswagen.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
So the.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Spec that I ordered I was told included everything which
was like a powered gate, powered doors, few other bits
and pieces. And then you know when I got it,
when I went and picked it up, it didn't have
those things, and I thought it initially it was a misbuild,
but it wasn't. But you know, look, that's that's a
kind of first world problem.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
You know, it's it's not still still we expect to
you know, that's a big purchase item. We'd expect it
to be right.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yes, that's correct. But in between ordering the vehicle and
getting it, I'm the one making the cause. Can you
tell me where the vehicle is? Can you tell me
how long will I be getting it? X, Y and Z,
and yeah, I that wasn't really very good, not really,
And then getting the vehicle handover was okay. Bear in mind,
(20:08):
this is a commercial vehicle, so it's building Hanover, It's
not bil On, Wolfsburg or somewhere else. And then subsequently
from the dealer I choose to get it from, who
was a combined commercial and car dealership I've subsequently used
for service and I've only had to use it twice
three times used a pure commercial vehicle dealer. So number
(20:29):
one tip I pass on is this, choose to choose
your dealer carefully and work with a commercial vehicle dealer specialist.
They know how to deal with business people. They tend
to be in my experience now, just more efficient, more professional,
ring your back, do all the right things. So that
would be a number one tip.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So just range on your vehicle.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
In the summertime, I've had as much as two hundred
and fifty actually, and then winter it can go down
to one hundred ninety. But bear in mind, I've got
that big dog crate in the back, which weighs a bit.
I've got two big dogs I stick in the back,
so you know, the range certainly with the dogs will
will will be diminished in that regard. I think that's
(21:14):
kind of inevitable. But most of the time it's myself
and maybe a customer or a friend or someone like
that in the vehicle. It isn't rarely kind of filled
up with three people in the back and two passengers
and the dogs. But you know that I have used
it that way. Yeah. Second tip, double check your spec,
check what you've ordered. Be absolutely certain that you're not
(21:36):
going to be disappointed in what you've got. Third thing,
and I've read some of comments from people about the price,
and yeah, I think it is. It is an expensive vehicle.
But you know, you don't have to buy it. They
don't make you buy it. You choose to buy it.
And let me tell you, my friend and all my
friends in America, for the spec you get spec for
(21:57):
spec pound for pound dollar for a dollar, you're getting
a better vehicle cheaper. You know, if you look at
the you get the long wheelbase, you get the panoramic
sun roof, you get, you know, a bunch of things
inside the vehicle that are oven above anything that was
either a as an option in the UK. I mean
we've only got short wheelbase initially. Now we've got the LWB.
(22:20):
But you know, in regard for value for money, I
would say the US spec is much better value for
money than the one we've had in the UK. So
so stop your winging, you know, take it for what
it is.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Where do the prices start in the UK, just for comparison.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, they're kind of you know, mid fifty five thousand's.
I mean my vehicle which I took pounds, yeah, pounds, so.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Seventy it would be about that, is it?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah something? And then the speck I got, which I
thought was the top spec, which kind of was you know,
launch editions, that was sixty five thousand pounds and I
ordered a few I did order a few extras and
things in it, the retractable electric tow bar the back
and a few other bits and pieces. But but yeah,
(23:11):
so that's kind of where I've got to with it,
and driven it twenty five thousand miles. The steering wheel.
Let's just come on to the ugly. The steering wheel
he uses. Yeah, the steering wheel uses vegan leather. It's
just not up to the job. I've had to have
it replaced once and I'm about to have it replaced
a second time, which to.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Me is not incredible German. Yes, uh huh, yes, wow.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
So that's that's been a disappointment because you know, the
steering wheel is something you're using all the time. Of
course you are. It's your connection to the road through
through the steering column, et cetera. And it starts to
flake and it really deiates. It looks like something. Yeah,
it looks like it's either got a disease or it's
one hundred and nine years old. That's what my sin
(24:00):
is going to look like when I celebrate my one
hundredth birthday, which isn't soon by the way. So so,
but then to replace it with basically the identical kit,
it's like madness because you know what's going to happen
over time, and you read the forums and go on
any of them and you'll see people have it. And
(24:20):
then two things happen to people. Either they end up
having an argument with the dealer, and it seems sometimes
even Volkswagen which in my case that I didn't have
to have that. You know, I I had a friend
actually in Fenness who had a word with somebody. Yeah,
so let's be straight up and down here. A friend
of mine who had a word with somebody at Volkswagen
gave me the kind of part number for the replacement piece.
(24:45):
And then when I approached the dealer, I said, look,
I know this is an issue. Please let's not have
an argument. I've actually got a part number here. You know,
someone a Volkswagen has given it to me, so can
we please just sort that out? And they were like, yeah,
of course, we're really sorry. You know, we'll sort it out.
And they were great. You know, it didn't take too
long to replace it. I went and and they did
it while I waited, So you know, all of that
(25:06):
is good. But it shouldn't be happening at all.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
No, it shouldn't on any German. So is that sort
of a rap? I'm trying to imagine. It's a wrap
around the steering wheel and then it took twenty minutes?
What to replace? Or how long did you wait for
the fix?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Complete new steering wheel?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Night? A new steering wheel? Oh my goodness, what.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
How much does that cost them? How much does that
under warranty? You know, great, I didn't pay. Why should I?
It would have been a crazy I would have gone crazy.
But how much is that custom? You know, in a
world where we know people are increasingly unchallenged in terms
of profitability, you just you've got to manage your warranty,
(25:47):
you know, bills, your recall costs as best you can
without inhibiting and damaging your brand equity and all the
rest of that. You shouldn't be shipping stuff you know
is going to fail, and certainly not ship it twice because.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
That's like just a steering wheel, Roger. I mean, if
you had said something really related to the battery or software. Okay, yeah, understood,
they have issues there, But the steering wheel. They've been
making these for one hundred years, well they have, they.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Haven't used the vegan leather thing. Whoever selected the leather
didn't do it right, I mean, okay, okay, that's a
quick moment. On the software.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, let's talk software. I'm super curious because from memory,
your previous vehicle you loved in every way except for
that digital interface or issues there too. What's your experience
with VW.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Well remembered my friend. I would say it's marginally better,
but only marginally. I don't want to bitch too much
about it, because you know, it's kind of well documented.
But as much as it is disappointing, especially compared to
many other vehicles, if I'm really honest, it hasn't like
spoilt my experience. You know, it's all almost like it's
(27:01):
almost sounds bad to say this, but like I know
it's going to be a little bit rubbish. So that's
where my expectation is set and it's met. So you know, yeah,
I don't want to sound horrible saying that, because look,
there are loads of boys and girls at Volkswagen who
work hard and do a great job, you know. And
like I said, I've said a couple of times, no
(27:21):
one made me get the vehicle. I knew this was
a weak point of Volkswagen at the moment, but you know,
I've been totally seduced by the functionality of the vehicle,
the look and shape of the vehicle, the drive of
the vehicle, many many things which are positive.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
It's enjoyable, you know, and you're still enjoyable. Can you
give us an example of where the software goes sideways.
What are things that make it clunky or not so
user friendly.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
It's laggy and slow, and sometimes when you're booting up
it doesn't come on when it should. Sometimes when you
stick it in reverse and you're reversing the camera, it
doesn't always come up sort of straight away. It's a
timing issue sometimes on again, it's not the end of
the world problem. But you can choose to have a
different color scheme. So you can have orange, of red, green,
(28:11):
blue on the display all around it. Yes, nice if
you've got color matched interior and you stick it and
it all looks nice. So I've got the blue one
as I mentioned, you know, so you configure the thing
to you know, color appearance are blue. So all lights
up blue. That's great. The next thing you turn it on,
the next thing, next time, it's gone back to the
original color.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
The no.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Like it just doesn't remember stuff. Maybe it's trying to
match me as a sixty six year old and thinking, well,
you're an elderly, an older gentleman who forgets things, so
I'll be just like you. Maybe maybe it's matching me
in that way.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
The car is now giving you a look. Roger the
Dogs now the car is giving you a look. The
software is saying we were going to have it this way.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I think it is, and now here's an other thing
quickly on this one. So I went for the twelve
inch screen rather than ten inch screen. That was one
of the options I chose because I just thought it
looks bigger and looks better. Yes, but at the bottom
where you've got both volume control and lighting controls, they
are not illuminated, so at night you can't actually see them.
What I can't understand, and you know the industry as
(29:20):
I do. How when there was the product planning meeting
and someone proposed this and went, you know, to the
manager of the team, so this is what we're going
to do and this is how it's going to work.
And someone would have said, but what about at night?
How will people see what the controls are at night?
Someone must have asked that question, and I can only
assume that someone would have said, well, how much would
(29:43):
it cost to illuminate it? And let's say ten dollars, No,
we can cost down, you know, the cost down thing
one out over the what will the customer want? What's
a good thing and anything that's a control, whether it's
volume or heating that you need to use at night
and you can't see, and you've got a fumble for
I would argue is a safety related item. I agreed,
(30:05):
it's where you know, it's a distraction to the driver
who should be paying attention to the road and not
having to think, well, where is everything?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, you were at Volkswagen, Roger. I was at General
Motors for years and you I do remember these calls
where you have the engineers on the six engineers in
different locations than you have the financial people, and they say,
here's our number, this is, this is. We can't go
over this number in terms of spending.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, so what are we going to take out?
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Absolutely now? Now another thing to answer your question the app.
So you have, as everybody has these days, an app
for your phone to control your car as best as possible. Now,
when it comes to charging, this thing is all over
the place. The charger that I use is from a
company called only ohn E. They're very very good. Their
(30:56):
app in relation to talking about the car and it's
charging protocols, et cetera, is better than the Volkswagen app.
I know more about my car when it's charging, and
I can control the charge with this app, the Charge
the Charger app, than I can the Vehicle's Vehicles app,
And sometimes it says it's one hundred percent charged and
(31:16):
it will display one hundred and twenty miles. Well, I
know that's wrong.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Wait, that's the VW app. Does that?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yes, today, I don't want to go back to the
VW app. I just don't want to deal with it
until they get it right. You tuggle over to your Omi,
is it Omi?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah? Only? So the only the thing I used to
configure the charger to set the charger, So I obviously
charge cheap at night because I don't need to do
all the miles every day. So I charge between you know,
midnight and five in the morning. And I set that
all up with the only app, which configures very nicely
with the car. You know, it knows it's my car,
the Volkswagen Bus, et cetera, et cetera. You know, so
(31:54):
the software capability of the Charge the Charger company is
superior to the software capability of the people who made
the damn kid in the first place, which is not
I cannot get my head around how you know, we
get into the whole carryad thing how can a company
spend billions on something and not and get it so
(32:15):
badly wrong? And when you hear Elon and other people
talk about innovation and development not happening in big companies,
it's a part of the time. They've got too many people,
too many hierarchies, too many power grabs, too many tribes,
too many things where you know, the innovation, if it
is there, and I'm sure it is, gets stifled.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Get stifled. That's right.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
And when people talk about China, you know, vertical integration, yes, government, yes,
all the things we talk about. But you know what,
it's also about culture. It's the culture of embracing innovation
from wherever it comes in a company and allowing it
to find its place. And you know, you know that
phrase that you and I in many Westerns are familiar with,
(33:00):
Oh that's way above my pay grade, you know, to
get involved in that that. You don't get that in
small companies. You know, I've talked to Marte Rimatz about
this in the past. You don't get that in small
companies where the teams work collectively together. If someone's got
a good idea, they stick the hand up, and whoever
they are, it's a bit, you've got a good idea,
(33:21):
what is it again? And to quote another name, Bob Gallian,
employee number two at c at L, told me this
the same thing in how that company really rose to
the occasion. A lot of that was about being democratic
in terms of finding the solutions. The solutions don't come
from the top, they come from everywhere, everywhere, And so
(33:43):
I think, you know, maybe one of the things that's
changed in the United States over the years, you know,
it's incredibly entrepreneurial country, is that bureaucracy and politics and
stuff has got in the way. And it's definitely what's
got in the way in Germany. Now Germany now for
the very everything that built its empire. You could argue
the same for Japan is now the very thing that
(34:05):
holds it back. You know, that hierarchical you know, respect
of everybody above you. You're just down here, You're not
up there. All of that stuff. You know, we can
all see now that it's sometimes needed to help manage organizations,
but a lot of the time it's just bullshit.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
A couple of weeks back, I was in Paris and
had an opportunity to have dinner with a Volvo executive
who now works for Zeker, so he knows he's Swedish,
he knows Vovo culture, he knows Zeker culture. I said,
what about the future of Europe's auto industry. Who's most vulnerable?
Right away he said the Germans are most vulnerable, which
took me aback, like, wait a second. The Germans, they're
(34:45):
the backbone of the industry in Europe. And he said,
for the reasons you're talking about Roger right now. They
just find it really hard to move away from the
structures and the processes that have been baked in for somebody,
it's really hard to get there, get it, to get
onto a different page.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yes, yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
A new world. We're into a new chapter and whether
we like it or not, we better we better adjust
to real.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Talk about a new chapter. Something popped up only yesterday
on LinkedIn. Herbert d s a picture of a vehicle
bi directionally charging working with the Mobility House, and you know,
it kind of just made me say, oh God, there's
Herbert Deese, the guy that Volkswagen fired, the guy that
(35:33):
gave Robin saying his break way back with COTL when
he Robin was at TDK, the guy that inspired and
triggered the BMW journey into electrification. It's like, oh, my goodness, me,
it's seeing the ghost of Christmas pas. I just and
(35:56):
you kind of think, so, I don't know. I didn't
work a Volkswagen at the time, but I think back
a few years think why might he have got fired?
Got fired because he was saying to the unions, we're
going to have to have fewer people when we make
electric vehicles for the obvious reasons. They didn't like that
friendly with Elon Musk, you know, and saying his cars
are really wonderful. He's doing a really good job. They
(36:17):
didn't like that. I don't like that, and maybe some
other things. CARRYAD, you know, it's like someone's going to
take the can. You know it's going to be you.
And I think that the Peck family, you know, the
side of supervisory board people, they just didn't. They shot
the messenger, you know, and from because what I understand,
some of what he was starting to do to try
(36:39):
and reinvigorate carry AD might well have worked, but they
didn't do it. Here we are years or more on
the very thing that he was he had advocated they
start to do. Then they didn't do when the new
Geezer came in, they're now starting to do they haven't
listened to some of these people who did know the
way forward, and now yeah, now they're paying a very serious.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Serious price, including announcements potential plank closings in Germany.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, but this was always going to happen when you
were making electric vehicles with substantial, significantly fewer parts. Yes,
but we've got to have the conversation with people in
an honest way and talk about it up front, which
is what Herbert Decent was he did.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
He was candid and direct. Big mistake, Roger. We have
just a couple of minutes left here. I'd like to
pivot once more back to the island where you reside,
known as what Great Britain.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Indeed it is.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yes, it's become the single largest market for electric vehicles,
surpassing Germany, I guess last month for the first time.
So that made headlines earlier this week. Looks like the
UK has really come out of nowhere to take leadership
in electrics. What's going on over there?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Well, you say, come out of nowhere, let's just stink
of some numbers. So in twenty twenty, at the end
of twenty twenty, there were two hundred and five thousand
electric cars and a few more, as I recall, which
wasn't even one percent of all the cars on the
road since then. At the end of October this year,
so just a few days ago, there were just under
(38:19):
one point three million fully electric cars in the UK.
So that's a kind of what was that fivefold a
bit more fivefold increase? And so despite what people think
and say, you know, there we are, and I mean,
and to give you a flavor of world, what are they?
I think I've got some data. I'm going to read it.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Actually, yeah, Roger, So one point three million, that's cumulative.
And then I think in the month of October the
UK surpassed Germany become the single highest selling single mark
with the highest number of EV sales. I think is
where we'd turn it? What are those products?
Speaker 2 (38:55):
I haven't got the number two hand I five minutes.
I could probably find it somewhere. Oh yeah, Otober it
was twenty nine thousand, eight hundred and two. Yeah, which
took us for the year year to date October to BEV.
So this is BEV, not PEV. Or anything else. Yes,
(39:16):
eight hundred and two in October, which cumulatively was two
hundred and ninety nine thousand, seven hundred and thirty three.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
For the year.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah, for the year. So despite what people think and say,
and of course a lot of this is well where
it emanates from, I'm not quite sure. But people that
just jump on a bandwagon or hear a bit of
something and then just elaborate on it nonsensically, it's just
not the case. I mean, Tesla, you know, model wise
(39:44):
right up there, Volksbug and ID four and KNA, Hyundai,
the Kia Key and E Neiro. These are really popular cars.
You see lots of them on the road. And of
course the intriguing thing here we've got Chinese fair of course,
so we've got got the MG that does very well here,
Mustang Mackie that's always in somewhere near the top ten, Skoda.
(40:06):
But the curious thing is we're now starting to see
Chinese evs on the road in the UK.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
You mentioned what MG Roger is byd on your list
to or not yet.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Not yet, no, not yet, But the cars are here
now people. In fact, I've been out with an influencer
you and I are storytellers. I don't think we'll make
a distinction. We're not we're not influencers, but influencers do
do just that. And on I have a friend who
does that for fashion on Instagram and she's now been
(40:39):
driving byd product, never driven an EV in her life,
and is just bolbed over with it, very impressed. So so,
you know, we haven't seen the Chinese cars yet here
in number. And here's the thing. The UK government, and
we've got a new one, hasn't yet said what if
anything the tariff regime is going to be on Chinese cars.
(40:59):
You know what it is in America and you know
what it is in Europe, you know, But in the
UK at the moment, it's you know, the silence has
been deafening.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Silence is deafening. You're right. EU is just in the
midst of hitting China with all kinds of terriffs, different
levels depending on the automaker. After their investigation into what
they call an anti subsidy probe, so they found that
the Chinese automakes were subsidizing their car they've slapped them
with higher duties across Europe. Just got on that last month.
(41:31):
But as you say, the UK is holding out saying,
you know, no, we'll take our Chinese cars for now.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Well, I mean, it's so curious how this journey is.
You know, it could be that in doing that, you're
basically enticing as a quid pro quote you say to
Chinese o EM's I'll tell you what, We're not going
to put tariffs on your cars. We like them, they're good,
but come here and do joint ventures with us factories.
(42:01):
You know the play that you you reference many times
in your commentary, you know, turn the tables, flip the script,
call it what you will. If I was, you know,
anywhere near turned Downing Street, that's kind of the advice
i'd give them. I would say, collaborate. Here's an opportunity.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Roger, thank you so much for making time with us today.
Always enjoy your conversations and your stories. And do you
remember how to say shit show in Chinese? So we're
gonna we'll end with that one, Blanche bads out, bads
out perfect perfect, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, Michael, it's a long sea chattel.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Awesome, Roger, thank you again, and I hope you see
you on the road.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
Likewise, there you have it, folks.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
And up to date report live from the United Kingdom
with Roger Atkins. So the illustrious Roger Atkins, a guy
who travels all over the world all the time, has
excellent network, knows his stuff and delivers it with yeah,
charm and pizzazz. British accent does help. I have to admit,
(43:19):
all right, what did we learn from Roger today?
Speaker 3 (43:22):
For me?
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Three highlights? One most important, Europe is under enormous pressure
right now because on the one hand, it's pursuing very
aggressive climate goals, while at the same time there's a risk.
In order to meet those climate goals, they sort of
want to import Chinese evs, but they sort of don't
want to because those evs may just overwhelm European industry.
(43:47):
That means job losses and tax revenue losses and incomes. No,
how do we get there? This is a huge dilemma.
Number Two, he loves his vwid Buzz except for the
software and the steering wheel. So you know, he said,
(44:08):
just set your expectations accordingly, great car to drive, but
you guys can fill in the blank. And Third, probably
most fascinating for me, was his commentary on German and
Japanese automis. It's been you know, this fixation about precision,
attention to detail, discipline structures that have allowed those two
(44:31):
proud countries to build some of the finest automobiles over
the last one hundred years. But now suddenly the game's changed.
We've moved to speed and software being the differentiators, and
it's really caused all kinds of chaos for these cultures
that have been around so long. Will they be able
(44:51):
to adapt to the new era or not stay tuned?
We don't know. It's up in the air. Thank you
all so much for joining this episode. My name is
Michael Dunn, and this is the Driving with Done podcast
where you meet the experts creating the technologies that will
power tomorrow's cars electric autonomous software. To find This is
(45:15):
a Driving with Done podcast. Thank you for joining this
episode of the Driving with Done podcast. To connect with
Michael Dunn, visit doninsights dot com or find Michael on
x or LinkedIn.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
This is the Driving With Done podcast.
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