One of the most significant limiters to EV adoption in America is the dreaded charging experience. Where do I find the nearest station? Wil, the chargers work? Do I need an app? Will I be safe sitting alone in my car for thirty minutes? Who can I call if things go wrong? In this episode, we learn from Christopher Balcom of Schneider Electric that improvements are on the way. Specifically, the mission is to simplify the charging experience by bringing several separate parts - the hardware, the software, the installer and the carmakers – together to form a seamless experience.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
We're top executives and crazy entrepreneurs gathered to talk about
the future of electric vehicles. This is the Driving with
Done podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello and welcome to the Driving with Done podcast. Great
to be back in the recording studio after many weeks
on the road. Took me to fascinating cities like Chicago,
Niagara Falls, Paris, London, Boca Raton, and Moore. Always going
to be back home though. This week we're gonna look
(00:34):
take a fresh look at charging, the experience of charging.
You know, we've visited this topic before, and you know
it's been a disaster historically. Has anything changed recently. We'll
let me summarize. If you drive an electric and you
charge your car outside the home, you are bound to
have one of two different experiences. One, if you go
(00:57):
to a Tesla supercharger station, things are constantly quick, simple
and convenient. If, however, you venture over you have the daring,
the audacity, the courage to wander over to a non
Tesla station like Electrify America or charge Point, the experience
can range from mediocre to a nightmare. What's the difference.
(01:21):
Tesla's totally integrated system with one owner and a quality
standard customer experience. All of the other charger points out
there feature multiple owners. What does that mean. There's some
people in charge of the hardware, some for the software.
Then there's others taking charge of the vehicle itself. How
about the apps? No single players in charge. So when
(01:44):
things go wrong, there's nobody to talk to, no person
or company ready with answers for you. More often you
get the old run around, Oh, sorry, that's a software issue.
Oh did you update your app? How recently has your
car been updated? My car been updated? Oh, that charger
(02:05):
over there right now is not working so well because
of the grid. See it's the grid, and on and
on and on. So just for a moment, imagine going
to the gas station to fill up. The pump doesn't
seem to work. You walk in to the store, it,
asked the attendant, Hey, what's the issue. She shrugs at
you with indifference. Hey, that's not my area, sir. Except
(02:29):
in the case of charger stations, there's not even a
person to talk to. You just get phone numbers, long
identification numbers, and a ride around the electrical merry go wrong.
Those customer service people on the line never disappoint They
are both cheerful and ineffective at the same time. Oh,
(02:51):
that's a software issue. It's an app issue. They say, no,
it's a grid issue. Oh no, Yeah, you got an
app issue. Got a better fix that grid issue. That
looks like a great issue. Yeah, but how do I
get my car charge? That's what I want to know. Now,
hold on. If you're thinking to yourself things should not
be that complicated, You're not alone. Schneider Electric is a
(03:11):
company that understands the pain points and they have new
products that promise to make our charging lives a lot easier.
Now to walk us through the issues and the solutions,
I'm delighted to welcome Christopher Balcom of Schneider Electric to
be our guest today on the Driving with Done podcast.
Christopher used to work at Tesla, so he knows both
(03:32):
sides of the road, and I know that you'll find
this conversation fresh and informative, especially if you're ready to
venture into the world of owning electric and charging it
outside your home. So let's get going right here, right now,
on the Driving with Done podcast. Hey, Christopher and san Diego,
(04:02):
welcome to the Driving with Done podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, Michael, glad to be here. Thanks for having me
excited for this conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So it's always sunny in San Diego. We know that,
but we know less about unless we live here, is
how people get around? How do you get around? How
do you get from point A to point B?
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So I live in a pretty metro area in San Diego,
not far from downtown by Balboa Park, if you're familiar
for here. So I think probably my number one means
of communication honestly is walking and biking. That would be
number one from there, when we do given that I
work at home, I don't need to go that. I
don't need to go that many places are commute. Usually
just go to the airport for flying.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
For traveling.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
We have a plug in hybrid for us that's pretty
old that we're looking to get a new one. And
then we have our camp in Subaru that's just still
a full combustion engine. That's a twenty twenty twelve that
has close to two hundred thousand miles and it's ready
to get traded in for a full electric vehicle, probably
coming twelve months here.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I would think, all right, that is my next question.
Is there an electric in your future? And if so,
what's it look like?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
I'm really feeling a truck.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I've never actually owned the truck, which is kind of
crazy to think about because I'm a native Texan and
I've never owned the truck. But I really liking the
Ford Lightnings. I also like the Ribbeans. I know the
new Silverado's coming out, which a little bit too pricey
for me, but looks like a really great spec there
cyber truck I like, I don't know if I don't
know if I can get the wife behind the cyber truck,
(05:31):
but I'll.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Be the chief executive of the household always weighs in.
They could put the veto on anything, even the cyber truck.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
That's right, They totally can. So we'll see where it goes, though,
But I'm liking the more of the more available opportunities
that consumers have today in the market. We'll see, we'll
see what happens, but I think it's twenty twenty five
is with me be a good year for the EBE
market and lots of good new cars coming to the space.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
More and more products on offer. Consumer I'm curious about,
you know, diving into electrics. Naturally, one of the first
things they think about is or maybe they don't think about,
but is a reality? Is charging so as a potential
near not too long in the future. Buyer of an
electric vehicle, what would be your game plan when it
(06:18):
comes to charging? How do you get your mindset up
for that?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I think, first, just go try out driving an electric vehicle.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I think that's kind of to me.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So was.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I worked at Tesla for a while.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
It's probably like eight years ago, and I was overseeing
the West US the retail stores and integrating like solar
and batteries into the retail stores.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
When Tesla acquired Solar City.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Butenever, I would go to the markets, they would let
me drive a Tesla and at that time I still
didn't have electric vehicle at that time. But I remember
immediately once I would get one of the cars, the
first time I had to do is that initial feeling
of you're looking at the state of charge and you're
you're already getting concerned.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
So I was like, that's what rained anxiety is.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
So I think it's just a good thing to go
like feel it for a second and kind of work
through that and be like, oh, it's not as big
of a deal. You need to have some sort of
understanding of mileage and where you're going to charge and
things like that. But I think the very initial step
is like, go feel what that is to drive an
electric vehicle?
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Feel what does come up?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
This concept of range anxiety, because it's something different, and
start just getting accustomed to that would be my first
suggestion there.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Can you go a little bit deeper when you talk
about I know exactly what you're taking your eyes go
to that number and typically it be like one hundred
and thirty two miles of range left. It's got a
little green bar there turning to yellow as you get lower.
What's that feeling like and how is it different from
looking at a gas gauge in your current vehicles.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
I think the feeling was it moved faster than the
gas vehicles. It wasn't.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
You're not used to how it moves. But then you
also you gain back charging. So I remember, like I
would go to Park City. I always go to that
Tesla facility there in Salt Lake, but I would drive
up the Park City and when you come down the
mountain there, you would gain back all these miles. So
that's something you would never get in a combustion engine.
So I think it's just it's there you can gain
(08:11):
miles and lose miles, which is very different than the
combustion engine where you just kind of lose miles, and
it's just more predictable because you're used to what does
that kind of feel like because you've just been driving
a car like that for a while. But yeah, I
think it's definitely a different feel That's why I would
just strongly encourage anybody that's like thinking about an eb
or even somebody it's like, hey, I'm not going to
do it because of range anxiety or the charge charging
(08:33):
infrastructure is and built out, which is still a very
common It's still it's such a common objection, which it's
kind of surprising thinking that now that we're in twenty
twenty four and I've been in this space now for
a while, and like that was a common objection back
then and it still is today. Like I talked to
my father in law who lives in Connecticut, and his
(08:53):
political swing goes to the right, and so he's really
always about, like I love eb's but it's like the
classic things, right, Like they're not as good for the environment,
and the charging infrastructure isn't there, right, I'm like, man,
the charging infrastructure thing is really still a thing. And
I would talk to him like, well, where do you
drive to and he's like, well, he drives like maybe
fifteen minutes to work. And then they don't really drive
(09:14):
through too much long commutes. They have two cars. I'm like,
he's a doctor. I'm like, I'm like, doctor, Like, this
is a You're a perfect candidate for elegend. You like
you have long dwell time, you only drive short like.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
You would be a perfect candidate.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
But for whatever reason, they get stuck in these beliefs.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It's tough to break them on.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I read about I heard that such and such, so
I can't. Yeah, you mentioned his short commutes. When people
ask me, I feel like there's an ironclad rule. If
all of your driving is within the city fifteen to
twenty minutes, go electric. Yeah. If more than twice a
month you're going on long distance trips to another city,
(09:53):
probably don't go electric.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Or at least go hybrid.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Maybe maybe plug in hybrid.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
When my neighbor down the road just got the not
the XC forty, but it's the sixty, I think it's
the bigger.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Well, plug in hybrid gets like thirty five miles of range.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
And she's a teacher you probably know the school at
Parker up in Mission Hills in San Diego, beautiful area,
and she just drives there and back and she's like
she's had it for like I think she's had it
for four months. And she says she's filled up gas
one time and that was when she went to Palm
Springs with some friends. So she's literally just like using
thirty five miles of range and it's totally sufficing her,
(10:33):
which is like crazy to think about.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Perfect. You need to connect her with your father in lawngside.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah there we got. Yeah, Yeah, I do. Susan, You're
gonna give her a shout out. She's an awesome, awesome individual.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Let's now pivot to Schneider Electric in particular to a
new word that I just learned when I went to
your site earlier this week, and that is prosumer. What's
a prosumer and why is it important to know?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, it was a new word. It was a Newish word,
I think before I even joined Stier. So I've been
with Styder coming up on about sixteen seventeen months now.
And when I when I when I saw the word,
I immediately kind of like I was like, I like
that word, and I went and googled it, right, And
if you kind of google it, there's a couple of
different context For one of them was this concept of
like an individual that takes like energy capabilities and is
(11:21):
able to sell that back to.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Monetize it to some capacity.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So I think the way Scheider looks at it maybe
is a bit more holistic and broader of like, we
are constantly in the consumer mindset, or.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
We're constantly in the consumer position most.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Of the time, especially when it comes to electrical the
electrical space. And so this presumer is saying, hey, like,
you're not just you're not just consuming electricity, but now
you have the ability to actually create monetary income from it,
but also create a lifestyle that you would want to have,
whether it's a more sustainable lifestyle at the same time.
So this presumer is saying, it's now a two way street. Right,
(11:55):
It's not just it's coming to you, but you're having
the ability to actually take that that power, manage it
on your own, possibly even generate monetary income from it
at the same time.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
So what's the example of how that would work?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, for sure, So in the solar space would be
a great example of that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Right, like you generate power during the day from your
solar panels, you store that in your battery, and then
that night when sdg NE, the classic utility in San
Diego that has the second highest rates in the nation
besides Hawaii, they have these different time of use rates
at night where the charges actually go up. You now
have this ability to say, hey, all this great power
(12:33):
that I stored during the day, I can now discharge
that battery into my house to not use your expensive
electricity that you're charging me. So this homeowner now has
control to become more on the pro sumer side, is
not just subject to the rates and what's happening there,
or subject to maybe changing their lifestyle for those hours,
(12:55):
such as not maybe running in ac or doing certain
things to try to avoid us spinning so much so
it puts the consumer more in the driver driver's seat.
I would say my directional charging in the eb space
would be another great example of that, as that's becoming
more popular.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
This concept.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
You have this vehicle in your driveway, you can discharge
that battery and almost use it as a station as
a battery for your house, and it puts you again
in kind of this presumer position and you're not just
subject to the utility rates and change.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
So let's take your home for example, you have a garage,
what types of equipment would you need to do both
of those? So you mentioned battery. I think power wall
from Tesla is a great example of that. There's this
big battery pack that's incorporated onto the wall of your
garage and that stores that energy from the solar panels
during the day and then you can draw from at night.
(13:47):
And then the second one you talked about bidirectional, So
what kind of equipment are we talking about? Is that
something that Schneider provides for sure.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So let's kind of break that down.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
So Schneider, like, we have a new part that we
just launched a market we call kind of our Scheider Home.
It's basically a first of the kind, comprehensive energy management
system that really is giving the homeowners disability for the comfort,
for the savings and energy independence. So what it consists of,
and this is really where the brains of it are at.
(14:16):
It consists of it starts at a service panel level.
So if you know anything about Schneider, are some of
the stories about it like a square D is a
Schneider company, This Squirty is Schneider essentially that brand is
so it's thirty is in one of every four homes
in North America. So we have a very great understanding
of electrical panels withinside.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Of the space, right.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
And so when we kind of approach this problem statement,
we looked at the market before getting into and said,
what's going on in the market today withinside of the
battery and the solar market. And what we saw was
a lot of really strong tier one players that I
would call that are doing really good in their space,
but they're not communicating or talking or working with each other.
(15:01):
So an example of that would be you can have
a charge point charger on the side of your house,
you can have a Tesla powerwall battery on the side
of your house with in phase inverters, and then you
can have some other smart panel or some other a
smart panel from a company called Spin or something like that.
So now we have like and this is actually michael
more common installation that you would see in the space.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
So we have four companies that.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Are all big in their own own domain, but really
who is getting like maybe not the most greatest int
of the stick, there is the homeowner, right, they have
four different apps or trying to monitor this. How are
these systems working together? How are they really helping mitigate
costs for this homeowner? Really put them in that strong
prost umber position. So we said, hey, we already know
(15:44):
the electrical panel space really well, let's create what we
call the Scheider Pulse panel, which is a smart electrical
panel that you can have what we call a backup
control switch for a battery that then would go connect
to a solar inverter, into your battery, into an EV charger,
and all the way Michael to the receptacles inside your house.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Basically being like a homeowner now.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Has one piece of software that they're able to monitor
five different elements and variables of how electricity is coming in,
how we're consuming it and producing it, and put this
in a very simple app for them to really help
them make more intelligent decisions as they move forward. So
that was like the problem statement that we solved, which
kind of led to the berth of Scheider Home, which
(16:26):
we're really excited that we just launched this product with
Inside of the space.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So there's an app and then behind the app is software,
it's a service. Would I subscribe to that service? What
exactly my buying?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, great, great question.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
You want to the software would be part of of
the service, So it wouldn't it be something like in
the charging space that we see where you go buy
a charger, then you need to pay the software description
or get on some SaaS software as a service type
business model. This is more so you buy the hardware,
which would be the battery, the inverter, the EV charger,
and a service panel a smart poles side of poles panel,
(17:02):
and the software would just be included on top of that.
So it wouldn't cost you an extra fee. There's no
like renewal fees on it like that. Once you buy
that hardware, you get the software as a part of
that package.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
And what would that run? Sam at a residence home
residence roughly? What are we talking about?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yeah, that's a great question. I probably won't go too
much into.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Price aspects of it, just because every installation is different, Michael.
And like you can come to a house where they
might need to actually bring in more load or power
forward to even increase their service panel up and the
installation elements can be different.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
The solar arrays can be different.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
What what I would encourage though, is if you go
to our website se home dot com, that you can
actually put in some information on there and one of
our live reps will speak to you and start walking
you through your home and make help you better understand
what that costs would look like.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Okay, So for example, here drive a Tesla model as
at my a home. It costs me about six hundred
dollars just to put in the outlet too allow me
to do level to charging. At that time, the plug
actually came free from Tesla, so that I'm smiling about that.
I don't know if that's still the case anymore, but
give people an idea. It's going to be not twenty
(18:15):
dollars or eighty dollars or one hundred and fifty. It's
going to be probably closer to a thousand or so
for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Or if you like break down like every component's going
to cost different, right, Like, so if you're just saying, hey,
I'm going to go get an EV charger at my home,
I mean you can go on Amazon to day and
kind of look at maybe a cheaper solution like in Poia,
which maybe get for like three ninety nine to a
more expensive solution that can probably range up to like
eight hundred bucks, but I think you're probably in the
range or buying a charger for your house somewhere between
(18:41):
like four to six hundred dollars. And then the installation
on that really just depends on what type of capacity
do you already have on your panel? Do you have
enough capacity? And if you do, that really helps save
you calls. But that means you don't need to go
increase your service panel. But if you, if you don't,
think there could be other elements that need to happen
here that can call.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
So yeah, that price does.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
It can swing just depending upon your current situation with your.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Home and what you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Right, So, some people still suffice off of level one charging.
My friend that I just mentioned, Susan Nelson who drives
to XC sixty, she just has level one.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Charging, right, level one that trickles, that's like.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Trickle charge, but she's got she's got thirty miles on
that battery, right, It kind of does it, you know,
like when you think about that, so it's.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Not always overnight. Maybe eight hours gets you thirty miles.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
That's enough for her it is enough for her for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Great. So, just as point of reference, that level one
that you just referred to, typically to add thirty or
forty miles, it's going to be overnight, eight, nine, ten hours. Possibly.
Then you go to level two, you might be able
to get the same charge thirty miles in fifteen minutes
or twenty minutes something like that. I don't know, half
an hour.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
A little bit longer than that, but yeah, bit longer.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, Yeah, you can definitely get get it much quicker
than the level one.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
So for you driving a model what was it model?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Why you said models?
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Models, I definitely wouldn't recommend level one charging.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
No be here all week, it'll be.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
There like three days trying to get some rain.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So you would definitely be like level two probably forty
to forty eight a charger.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, but the level three is what happens when we
go to a Tesla supercharger, and then that's in that
case you can add a lot of miles in twenty
thirty minutes. That's right, Okay, all right, So if you
agree with me, even if you don't agree with me,
I'd like to pivot now too, because I was really
excited to hear you talking about this sort of master
(20:41):
hub to solve all the complexities of different mechanisms and
software in your home. And let's move in for a
moment to charging stations for the car. That's right, and
you used to work at Tesla. Tesla's charging experience. I've
been driving Tesla's now for eight years. Phenomenal, reliable, convenient, quick, yes, simple,
(21:04):
one touch like boom, put it in, don't think, no payments,
not just done. Then you have this other universe, which is,
sorry to say, more like a nightmare. There's a lot
of complexity, a lot of things gone wrong. We hear
reports that one in three charging stations in the country
don't work. They're slow, they don't connect. Just talking to
(21:25):
a friend of mine in the business, they said, what's
the number one complaint for people going to charge in
non Tesla network? The charging doesn't start. So imagine pulling
up to a gas station by the way, I'd like
to put some gas in here. Well, I can't get start,
I can't actually start to pump the gas. That's a
reality for people. So talk to us a little bit
about Schneider's presence there. I believe you guys acquired ev
(21:47):
Connect not too long ago. Yeah, yes, what is what
do you guys do in that space?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, that's a really great, great question.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
So we're entering the charging space from two different kind
of aspects here, from a consumer aspect, from a residential
aspect for Michael at your house to have a solution
for you there. But then from also the commercial aspect.
So we'll start with the commercial aspect. Ebconnect was a
recent a recent acquisition that was made to really start
(22:19):
building out our consumer platform. So they're they're one of
the top software platforms out there with inside this base,
their agnostic they integrate with other hardware manufacturers out there
to be able to provide a software solution for for commercial,
for for for for for the commercial industry when Schneider.
Schneider is also about to be launching what we what's
(22:39):
called our charge Pro level two chargers, so that that
that charger is coming out right at the end of
this year early Q one. We're excited about launching that
to the space. And then there's one other element I
want to talk about. I'm going to bring this together here,
but another company that we partnered with the main acquisition
of was q Marrit so Q Marit is also a
very large electrical contractor and network base that provides installation
(23:02):
services and also O and M services at the same capacity.
So when we really looked at this, we said, how
do we start providing a full turn key solution. So
I mentioned qu Merit from the installation side, I mentioned
Abconnect from the software side, and then Schneider's released in
our own charger. There's one other key important ingredient here
(23:25):
that's put Schneider in a unique position. We make a
lot of switch gear, transformers, balance of system stuffs that
we already currently today sell to large properties. When they're
building out a building, they say that we need all
this switch gear and infrastructure for the electrical to be
able to go in. Right, We currently work with on
(23:46):
a lot of large emobility projects, being like, it's not
a Schneider charger today, but all the what we call
make ready gear and electrical infrastructure that's all Schneider that's
happening un any there, which when you really kind of
look at a total project calls inside of the eed space.
The majority of the costs, the lion's share of that
cost for anybody installing does not come from the charger.
(24:08):
Or the software it comes from the electrical infrastructure to
actually put this the chargers in the ground, and Schneider's
already in that space, and that puts us in a
unique position today when you look at the other OEMs
out there. Again, this kind of goes to this full
kind of cradle to great cradle turnkey solution that we'll
be able to provide the electrical infrastructure, the installation of that,
(24:32):
the charger of that, the software of that, and the
operation and maintenance of that, all off of one umbrella
with inside it side.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
And that gets to the core heart of the problem
today because as a user of charging services at Electrify
America or Evco or whatever, I have a lot of
different players, and when things go wrong, I don't know
who I can talk to. I'm sitting in my cars
ten o'clock at night, is cold, our charger going down
(25:01):
and it's not working. Who do I speak to? So
this sounds like an effort to sort of consolidate many
of the players under one roof.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
That's right, it's a very similar problem statement that I
just mentioned on the Schneider home side, right, Like people
at the home and there's all these great tier players
out there doing it, but it was kind of became
a HEINZ fifty seven to a degree on the side
of somebody's house.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
It's a similar thing that's kind of happening in the
charging space right now, where charging infrastructure is broken down,
and then you kind of start getting to the roots
of it.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
You're like, is it the software? Is it the hardware?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Then it's like who actually owns this? Does the charging
manufacturer own it?
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Is this right? Who's responsible?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I host own it? Was this based off grant funding?
Now the money's also he has money to go fix it?
Is that charging company is still even in business today?
So you're a spot on man. It's messy out there
right now. I think we're starting to see some consolidation happen, unfortunately,
and fortunately I think to a degree. I mean, over
this last three weeks we saw a big players like
(26:00):
EBA Global and LX, juice Box ev Box are kind
of falling out of the market in the space. I
don't like seeing that happen from a degree, just being
like pro people wanting to be in the space, But
there also has to become this element of consolidation to
kind of clean things up a bit and that's really
where Tesla has just had that headstart on, especially in
the supercharging network, where they were just like, we're going
(26:22):
to own it, we're going to operate it, we're going
to take four responsibility for the whole thing. It's a
one stop shop, and that has played out really well for.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Them, right, Speaking of Tesla, starting a year year and
a half ago, major OEMs around the world announced that
they were going to join the Tesla network and the
next standard, the North American Charging Standard, that was designed,
developed and originated by Tesla. How does that change the game,
if at all?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I think it definitely changes the game. I mean we're
seeing it right.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I think almost every major auto oem has now announced
that they're going to adopt the nacs. We've seen four
now provide adapters, and then GM's coming has the same
kind of adapter that will come with the charger, So
we're seeing it happen.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I think it's the right thing to do, the consolidation
of it.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
We can't have a bunch of different chargers out there,
and what car and plug tech just hard to scale
like that, right, So it's for sure the right move.
I also it's the right move, but it's created a
bump in the road along the way, which is a
bump that we need to go over. But with that bump,
it's also created more confusion with inside the space. I
think it's probably slow rolled people on like buying their
(27:28):
next eb a bit just being like, hey, I'm gonna
let kind of some of this playoffs, this dust settle
down for a minute, Like I see where it's going,
but I don't really want a car that has like
an outdated connector or like maybe it has a Chatamo
or something else on it. So it's like, I think
it's it's in the right direction. I think it's also
created a slight one step back for us to really
(27:50):
be able to launch forward, and it's it's a great connecting.
Domingon AX is great. So I think it's the right move.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
In the right direction.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Would would a Schneider Electric offering then feature NAS connector.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Or we'll have both and so we'll have a skew
for purchasing, one with the KNAS and one with the
JA seventeen seventy two on there.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
And until that kind of clears out, I think that that's.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
What a lot of the OEMs are doing right now
until we really see that the market share is clearly
at this point that's probably just going to take a
while because there's still just so many There's still a
lot of cars on the road. I think the North
American market, I don't think what is that like ten
percent right now at the adoption, So it's still low,
but that still has a lot of cars out there
that that there will have to be a product to
(28:35):
serve those cars for the years to come. So we
kind of recycle through those and actually get more of
a larger fleet that just has naps.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I think that that Jay seventeen seventy two is going
to be a viable option in the space for a bit.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Let's imagine your father in law goes, jumps into the water, says,
the water is fine. You told me it's fine. I
got my electric car. You get a call. It's eleven
o'clock Eastern times eight o'clock here in San Diego. You're
having your glass of wine, and your father in law goes,
I'm at a charging station is not working. What do
I do? Uh?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Huh, Yeah, that would be uh. I would say, ay,
how much state of charge do you have in your car?
Where are you at with your car and where are
you actually at right now? From there, I would kind
of walk him.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I would just basically ask him what charger it is,
trying to guide him through how to initiate a charge
on there, or at least reach out to some customer
sport there.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
If it seemed like it.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Was more of a loss calls for him to spend
the time there, I'd maybe direct him and say, hey, like,
there's probably another charging station a couple of miles down
the road.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
You might just want to drive over there, as opposed
to trying to go through it.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
But if he was in a situation where he's like
I have to charge here, I have five miles state
of charge left and we have to figure something out,
he would have to go through their steps right like
you'd have to look at the manufacturer of the charger.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Hopefully there's some sort of support.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Line that who does he call? Does he call the
car maker, say he buys in lightning? Does he call
Ford at that hour? Or do is he call what
does he call?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
If if I was my situation, I would be calling
the actual charger that's right in front of me with
the name right there.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
You get the name, It says.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Charge point or connector whoever it was that is titling
as the provider for that. I would start there. Unfortunately,
this is where it can get tricky. Right, you call
that hardware manufacturer, and the hardware manufacturer does what they say.
It's actually the software manufacturer side.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Right, it's not my Hey, whoa, it's not my that's
not what I do. Dude, that's not my thing.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
That's not my thing. It's over there.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So that's where Schnyder is really trying to say, we
don't want to put ourselves in that position with our
new products coming out, and we want to have a
stop shop from a support standpoint, whether it's a hardware
issue or whether it is a software issue, that we'll
be able to provide either a just already just a
really strong uptime of over ninety ninety nine percent uptime
guarantee that the charger is going to work, and.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
In those small percentages where.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
It is down, how do we address that customer with urgency,
Knowing that impacting somebody's transportation can greatly impact somebody's life.
They're trying to get if it's an emergency situation, trying
to take a kid home, trying to commute whatever it is, like,
transportation is a very important thing and that needs to
be handled with a high level of accountability and a
(31:17):
high level of dependability at the same time.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Now, with these stations feature that I pull up to,
I haven't seen a Schneider electric charger yet. I've seen
what Electrify America or ev go or what are the
charge point is there if you're out there with your
again with your father in law and you go, hey,
you know it for peace of mind, look for these brands.
Is there a Schiner Electric currently or will there be one?
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Schinder will be come in the market soon with our
level two charger. We have plans, We do have plans,
and we're really looking at the DC space, but nothing
has been announced in that arena yet. So we're focusing
first all on the level two market right now. So
that would probably be more so like fleet applications or
workplace applications or multi family applications. It probably wouldn't be
(32:06):
something where somebody is always going to be using if
they're doing some sort of commute to go across country or.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Something like that.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
But that remember that saying I just said earlier, dwell
time matters, right, So that this car is going to
be in a situation where the duell time probably needs
to be multiple hours, not just a quick thirty minute stop. Right.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
So, our current product that.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
We're coming in the market with is going to focus
more in that level two space as we continue to
look at the DC the DC space.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I want to go back to our earlier in our conversation.
You were working at Tesla. I imagine you must have
been tempted at a certain point to get one. Oh
for sure the models did the chief executive way in
at that point too, or what happened.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
No seen in a way in this I was working
at Tesla.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
When the models and Model X where the main car
is still being sold.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
It was in the midst of.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
The Model three quote unquote production, you know, the the
word after that that they've been So I actually left
Tesla right during the Model three, right after the Model
three launched, I went over to Charge Point. So, uh,
in that timeframe, the Model X and Model Y were
just something that were really great cars, but wasn't really
what I had my sights on.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
And then kind of.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Life happens were the cars that you already had, you know,
like hey, like let's let's just get the best all
of these cars. But definitely I got my site set
on a certain OEM that there's a couple OEMs that
I really like, So we'll see how it kind of
shakes out here.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Lightning, Did I hear Lightning?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
I like the Lightning. I do really do like the Lightning.
I think it's a great looking truck.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I like the Ribbans a lot solid review over the
Lucid Pure the other day, which is really cool car.
I mean, there's honestly, there's a lot of great options
out there right now today, so like I feel like whatever,
and then the next like twelve months, when when I
or anybody else goes into the market for looking for evs,
it's there are a lot of options. I think the
challenge more so be like how does a new consumer
(34:02):
kind of filter through the noise to understand which car
and what do they do and why type stuff? So
I think that there's still a level of just enablement
that needs to happen withinside of the market. If you
look at today, like we have the ability, people like
you Michael are doing that right now by doing even
interviews like this and trying to get it out there.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
I think in the past, like if you really think
about like.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Maybe you take take a couple of decades back or
a little bit around there, like the dealership actually was
like a big educator of the of the of the space, right,
Like is that still happening today in the EB space
or is that in general still happening. I think consumers
probably walking with a lot of understanding of a vehicle.
But I would still say the dealerships are a core
(34:46):
component to enablement to the evs and they shouldn't just
be looked at as as they're not. So I think
that that level of adoption at the dealership level and
that buy in is is going to be real important
to to getting our market share in the United States.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Hire and higher and hire tremendous. Chris, Sure, thank you
very much for your time today. I learned a lot.
How do people learn more about you and your products?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Yeah, so you can go to Schneider Scheider home dot com.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
You can check out all of our products on there,
from our solar battery EV chargers. We're going to be
making announcements on our charge pro that I just mentioned.
If you're a business and you're looking to get chargers
on your facility, or really look at bundling together a
package from like I talked about the electrical equipment to
(35:37):
the charger, to the OEM. We're going to have a
really unique offer to be able to come into the
space in twenty twenty five. You can also find that
on our website as well. So yeah, excited, excited for
the journey ahead. And Mike, I really enjoyed this conversation
as well. It's been great as cool knowing that you're
not you're not far away.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
We're local, Sandyegans, that's right, Go San Diego, Go Padres.
I don't know how we didn't make it past the Dodgers.
A travesty, but life goes.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
On, it does, it does.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Thanks so much and we'll see you soon.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
The arena of charging your electric car, it's rife with
complexity and emotions, but the direction is good. It's bound
to get better in the months and years to come.
When people tell me they're going electric and they asked
me to recommend a product, here are my three standard
sort of guidelines. One up until very recently, I would
(36:42):
definitely say by Tesla, if only to minimize stress related
to charging. That's because when it comes to charging. There's
the Tesla standard, and then there's everyone else. But now,
just in the last year or so, all other automakers,
virtually almost everybody is coming around to adopt the next standard.
(37:02):
That's the Tesla standard. What does that mean? If you're
driving a forward to GM, Volvo, Hondai, Honda, etc. You
can now begin to use this Tesla supercharger network. That's
some real progress. Peace of mind. Then, looking ahead, Schneider
Electric and its competitors are bound to make the experience
of non Tesla charging stations much much better in due course.
(37:25):
How patient are we? Hey? One more thing before we go.
Many listeners have requested to return to our fun practice
of including some Asian words at the end of the podcast.
As many of you know, I speak Chinese, Thai, and Indonesian,
having lived in Asia for twenty six years in each
of those countries. So let's have some fun with the
(37:47):
names of three different countries in Chinese today. First, China
in Chinese chung Guu, chung Guu. That's how you say
China in Chinese. How do you say America in Chinese?
May ga, may go? And one more, how do we
say England in Chinese? Well? That's easy, ying, go ying, go,
(38:13):
there you go. You've learned three new Chinese words in
less than fifteen seconds. Try them on your friends today. Hey,
that's a wrap on this episode of the Driving With
Done podcast. So delighted to be back at the podcast studio.
Do take a moment to check out our website www
dot doninsights dot com. We got great newsletters and podcasts
(38:38):
available to all. In addition to that, some good information
about what's happening globally with electric vehicle markets, with batteries,
and even some stuff on autonomous vehicles. That's all for now.
Thank you so much for joining. I am Michael Dunn,
and this is the Driving with Done podcast.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Where you meet the experts creating the technologies that will
power tomorrow's cars electric autonomous software. To find this is
a Driving with Done podcast.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Thank you for joining this episode of the Driving with
Done podcast.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
To connect with Michael, don visit Doninsights dot.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Com or find Michael on x or LinkedIn. This is
the Driving With Done Podcast
We're top executives and crazy entrepreneurs gathered to talk about
the future of electric vehicles. This is the Driving with
Done podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello and welcome to the Driving with Done podcast. Great
to be back in the recording studio after many weeks
on the road. Took me to fascinating cities like Chicago,
Niagara Falls, Paris, London, Boca Raton, and Moore. Always going
to be back home though. This week we're gonna look
(00:34):
take a fresh look at charging, the experience of charging.
You know, we've visited this topic before, and you know
it's been a disaster historically. Has anything changed recently. We'll
let me summarize. If you drive an electric and you
charge your car outside the home, you are bound to
have one of two different experiences. One, if you go
(00:57):
to a Tesla supercharger station, things are constantly quick, simple
and convenient. If, however, you venture over you have the daring,
the audacity, the courage to wander over to a non
Tesla station like Electrify America or charge Point, the experience
can range from mediocre to a nightmare. What's the difference.
(01:21):
Tesla's totally integrated system with one owner and a quality
standard customer experience. All of the other charger points out
there feature multiple owners. What does that mean. There's some
people in charge of the hardware, some for the software.
Then there's others taking charge of the vehicle itself. How
about the apps? No single players in charge. So when
(01:44):
things go wrong, there's nobody to talk to, no person
or company ready with answers for you. More often you
get the old run around, Oh, sorry, that's a software issue.
Oh did you update your app? How recently has your
car been updated? My car been updated? Oh, that charger
(02:05):
over there right now is not working so well because
of the grid. See it's the grid, and on and
on and on. So just for a moment, imagine going
to the gas station to fill up. The pump doesn't
seem to work. You walk in to the store, it,
asked the attendant, Hey, what's the issue. She shrugs at
you with indifference. Hey, that's not my area, sir. Except
(02:29):
in the case of charger stations, there's not even a
person to talk to. You just get phone numbers, long
identification numbers, and a ride around the electrical merry go wrong.
Those customer service people on the line never disappoint They
are both cheerful and ineffective at the same time. Oh,
(02:51):
that's a software issue. It's an app issue. They say, no,
it's a grid issue. Oh no, Yeah, you got an
app issue. Got a better fix that grid issue. That
looks like a great issue. Yeah, but how do I
get my car charge? That's what I want to know. Now,
hold on. If you're thinking to yourself things should not
be that complicated, You're not alone. Schneider Electric is a
(03:11):
company that understands the pain points and they have new
products that promise to make our charging lives a lot easier.
Now to walk us through the issues and the solutions,
I'm delighted to welcome Christopher Balcom of Schneider Electric to
be our guest today on the Driving with Done podcast.
Christopher used to work at Tesla, so he knows both
(03:32):
sides of the road, and I know that you'll find
this conversation fresh and informative, especially if you're ready to
venture into the world of owning electric and charging it
outside your home. So let's get going right here, right now,
on the Driving with Done podcast. Hey, Christopher and san Diego,
(04:02):
welcome to the Driving with Done podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, Michael, glad to be here. Thanks for having me
excited for this conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So it's always sunny in San Diego. We know that,
but we know less about unless we live here, is
how people get around? How do you get around? How
do you get from point A to point B?
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So I live in a pretty metro area in San Diego,
not far from downtown by Balboa Park, if you're familiar
for here. So I think probably my number one means
of communication honestly is walking and biking. That would be
number one from there, when we do given that I
work at home, I don't need to go that. I
don't need to go that many places are commute. Usually
just go to the airport for flying.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
For traveling.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
We have a plug in hybrid for us that's pretty
old that we're looking to get a new one. And
then we have our camp in Subaru that's just still
a full combustion engine. That's a twenty twenty twelve that
has close to two hundred thousand miles and it's ready
to get traded in for a full electric vehicle, probably
coming twelve months here.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I would think, all right, that is my next question.
Is there an electric in your future? And if so,
what's it look like?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
I'm really feeling a truck.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I've never actually owned the truck, which is kind of
crazy to think about because I'm a native Texan and
I've never owned the truck. But I really liking the
Ford Lightnings. I also like the Ribbeans. I know the
new Silverado's coming out, which a little bit too pricey
for me, but looks like a really great spec there
cyber truck I like, I don't know if I don't
know if I can get the wife behind the cyber truck,
(05:31):
but I'll.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Be the chief executive of the household always weighs in.
They could put the veto on anything, even the cyber truck.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
That's right, They totally can. So we'll see where it goes, though,
But I'm liking the more of the more available opportunities
that consumers have today in the market. We'll see, we'll
see what happens, but I think it's twenty twenty five
is with me be a good year for the EBE
market and lots of good new cars coming to the space.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
More and more products on offer. Consumer I'm curious about,
you know, diving into electrics. Naturally, one of the first
things they think about is or maybe they don't think about,
but is a reality? Is charging so as a potential
near not too long in the future. Buyer of an
electric vehicle, what would be your game plan when it
(06:18):
comes to charging? How do you get your mindset up
for that?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I think, first, just go try out driving an electric vehicle.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I think that's kind of to me.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So was.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I worked at Tesla for a while.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
It's probably like eight years ago, and I was overseeing
the West US the retail stores and integrating like solar
and batteries into the retail stores.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
When Tesla acquired Solar City.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Butenever, I would go to the markets, they would let
me drive a Tesla and at that time I still
didn't have electric vehicle at that time. But I remember
immediately once I would get one of the cars, the
first time I had to do is that initial feeling
of you're looking at the state of charge and you're
you're already getting concerned.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
So I was like, that's what rained anxiety is.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
So I think it's just a good thing to go
like feel it for a second and kind of work
through that and be like, oh, it's not as big
of a deal. You need to have some sort of
understanding of mileage and where you're going to charge and
things like that. But I think the very initial step
is like, go feel what that is to drive an
electric vehicle?
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Feel what does come up?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
This concept of range anxiety, because it's something different, and
start just getting accustomed to that would be my first
suggestion there.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Can you go a little bit deeper when you talk
about I know exactly what you're taking your eyes go
to that number and typically it be like one hundred
and thirty two miles of range left. It's got a
little green bar there turning to yellow as you get lower.
What's that feeling like and how is it different from
looking at a gas gauge in your current vehicles.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
I think the feeling was it moved faster than the
gas vehicles. It wasn't.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
You're not used to how it moves. But then you
also you gain back charging. So I remember, like I
would go to Park City. I always go to that
Tesla facility there in Salt Lake, but I would drive
up the Park City and when you come down the
mountain there, you would gain back all these miles. So
that's something you would never get in a combustion engine.
So I think it's just it's there you can gain
(08:11):
miles and lose miles, which is very different than the
combustion engine where you just kind of lose miles, and
it's just more predictable because you're used to what does
that kind of feel like because you've just been driving
a car like that for a while. But yeah, I
think it's definitely a different feel That's why I would
just strongly encourage anybody that's like thinking about an eb
or even somebody it's like, hey, I'm not going to
do it because of range anxiety or the charge charging
(08:33):
infrastructure is and built out, which is still a very
common It's still it's such a common objection, which it's
kind of surprising thinking that now that we're in twenty
twenty four and I've been in this space now for
a while, and like that was a common objection back
then and it still is today. Like I talked to
my father in law who lives in Connecticut, and his
(08:53):
political swing goes to the right, and so he's really
always about, like I love eb's but it's like the
classic things, right, Like they're not as good for the environment,
and the charging infrastructure isn't there, right, I'm like, man,
the charging infrastructure thing is really still a thing. And
I would talk to him like, well, where do you
drive to and he's like, well, he drives like maybe
fifteen minutes to work. And then they don't really drive
(09:14):
through too much long commutes. They have two cars. I'm like,
he's a doctor. I'm like, I'm like, doctor, Like, this
is a You're a perfect candidate for elegend. You like
you have long dwell time, you only drive short like.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
You would be a perfect candidate.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
But for whatever reason, they get stuck in these beliefs.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It's tough to break them on.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I read about I heard that such and such, so
I can't. Yeah, you mentioned his short commutes. When people
ask me, I feel like there's an ironclad rule. If
all of your driving is within the city fifteen to
twenty minutes, go electric. Yeah. If more than twice a
month you're going on long distance trips to another city,
(09:53):
probably don't go electric.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Or at least go hybrid.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Maybe maybe plug in hybrid.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
When my neighbor down the road just got the not
the XC forty, but it's the sixty, I think it's
the bigger.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Well, plug in hybrid gets like thirty five miles of range.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
And she's a teacher you probably know the school at
Parker up in Mission Hills in San Diego, beautiful area,
and she just drives there and back and she's like
she's had it for like I think she's had it
for four months. And she says she's filled up gas
one time and that was when she went to Palm
Springs with some friends. So she's literally just like using
thirty five miles of range and it's totally sufficing her,
(10:33):
which is like crazy to think about.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Perfect. You need to connect her with your father in lawngside.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah there we got. Yeah, Yeah, I do. Susan, You're
gonna give her a shout out. She's an awesome, awesome individual.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Let's now pivot to Schneider Electric in particular to a
new word that I just learned when I went to
your site earlier this week, and that is prosumer. What's
a prosumer and why is it important to know?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, it was a new word. It was a Newish word,
I think before I even joined Stier. So I've been
with Styder coming up on about sixteen seventeen months now.
And when I when I when I saw the word,
I immediately kind of like I was like, I like
that word, and I went and googled it, right, And
if you kind of google it, there's a couple of
different context For one of them was this concept of
like an individual that takes like energy capabilities and is
(11:21):
able to sell that back to.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Monetize it to some capacity.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So I think the way Scheider looks at it maybe
is a bit more holistic and broader of like, we
are constantly in the consumer mindset, or.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
We're constantly in the consumer position most.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Of the time, especially when it comes to electrical the
electrical space. And so this presumer is saying, hey, like,
you're not just you're not just consuming electricity, but now
you have the ability to actually create monetary income from it,
but also create a lifestyle that you would want to have,
whether it's a more sustainable lifestyle at the same time.
So this presumer is saying, it's now a two way street. Right,
(11:55):
It's not just it's coming to you, but you're having
the ability to actually take that that power, manage it
on your own, possibly even generate monetary income from it
at the same time.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
So what's the example of how that would work?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, for sure, So in the solar space would be
a great example of that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Right, like you generate power during the day from your
solar panels, you store that in your battery, and then
that night when sdg NE, the classic utility in San
Diego that has the second highest rates in the nation
besides Hawaii, they have these different time of use rates
at night where the charges actually go up. You now
have this ability to say, hey, all this great power
(12:33):
that I stored during the day, I can now discharge
that battery into my house to not use your expensive
electricity that you're charging me. So this homeowner now has
control to become more on the pro sumer side, is
not just subject to the rates and what's happening there,
or subject to maybe changing their lifestyle for those hours,
(12:55):
such as not maybe running in ac or doing certain
things to try to avoid us spinning so much so
it puts the consumer more in the driver driver's seat.
I would say my directional charging in the eb space
would be another great example of that, as that's becoming
more popular.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
This concept.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
You have this vehicle in your driveway, you can discharge
that battery and almost use it as a station as
a battery for your house, and it puts you again
in kind of this presumer position and you're not just
subject to the utility rates and change.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
So let's take your home for example, you have a garage,
what types of equipment would you need to do both
of those? So you mentioned battery. I think power wall
from Tesla is a great example of that. There's this
big battery pack that's incorporated onto the wall of your
garage and that stores that energy from the solar panels
during the day and then you can draw from at night.
(13:47):
And then the second one you talked about bidirectional, So
what kind of equipment are we talking about? Is that
something that Schneider provides for sure.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So let's kind of break that down.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
So Schneider, like, we have a new part that we
just launched a market we call kind of our Scheider Home.
It's basically a first of the kind, comprehensive energy management
system that really is giving the homeowners disability for the comfort,
for the savings and energy independence. So what it consists of,
and this is really where the brains of it are at.
(14:16):
It consists of it starts at a service panel level.
So if you know anything about Schneider, are some of
the stories about it like a square D is a
Schneider company, This Squirty is Schneider essentially that brand is
so it's thirty is in one of every four homes
in North America. So we have a very great understanding
of electrical panels withinside.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Of the space, right.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
And so when we kind of approach this problem statement,
we looked at the market before getting into and said,
what's going on in the market today withinside of the
battery and the solar market. And what we saw was
a lot of really strong tier one players that I
would call that are doing really good in their space,
but they're not communicating or talking or working with each other.
(15:01):
So an example of that would be you can have
a charge point charger on the side of your house,
you can have a Tesla powerwall battery on the side
of your house with in phase inverters, and then you
can have some other smart panel or some other a
smart panel from a company called Spin or something like that.
So now we have like and this is actually michael
more common installation that you would see in the space.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
So we have four companies that.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Are all big in their own own domain, but really
who is getting like maybe not the most greatest int
of the stick, there is the homeowner, right, they have
four different apps or trying to monitor this. How are
these systems working together? How are they really helping mitigate
costs for this homeowner? Really put them in that strong
prost umber position. So we said, hey, we already know
(15:44):
the electrical panel space really well, let's create what we
call the Scheider Pulse panel, which is a smart electrical
panel that you can have what we call a backup
control switch for a battery that then would go connect
to a solar inverter, into your battery, into an EV charger,
and all the way Michael to the receptacles inside your house.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Basically being like a homeowner now.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Has one piece of software that they're able to monitor
five different elements and variables of how electricity is coming in,
how we're consuming it and producing it, and put this
in a very simple app for them to really help
them make more intelligent decisions as they move forward. So
that was like the problem statement that we solved, which
kind of led to the berth of Scheider Home, which
(16:26):
we're really excited that we just launched this product with
Inside of the space.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So there's an app and then behind the app is software,
it's a service. Would I subscribe to that service? What
exactly my buying?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, great, great question.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
You want to the software would be part of of
the service, So it wouldn't it be something like in
the charging space that we see where you go buy
a charger, then you need to pay the software description
or get on some SaaS software as a service type
business model. This is more so you buy the hardware,
which would be the battery, the inverter, the EV charger,
and a service panel a smart poles side of poles panel,
(17:02):
and the software would just be included on top of that.
So it wouldn't cost you an extra fee. There's no
like renewal fees on it like that. Once you buy
that hardware, you get the software as a part of
that package.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
And what would that run? Sam at a residence home
residence roughly? What are we talking about?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yeah, that's a great question. I probably won't go too
much into.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Price aspects of it, just because every installation is different, Michael.
And like you can come to a house where they
might need to actually bring in more load or power
forward to even increase their service panel up and the
installation elements can be different.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
The solar arrays can be different.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
What what I would encourage though, is if you go
to our website se home dot com, that you can
actually put in some information on there and one of
our live reps will speak to you and start walking
you through your home and make help you better understand
what that costs would look like.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Okay, So for example, here drive a Tesla model as
at my a home. It costs me about six hundred
dollars just to put in the outlet too allow me
to do level to charging. At that time, the plug
actually came free from Tesla, so that I'm smiling about that.
I don't know if that's still the case anymore, but
give people an idea. It's going to be not twenty
(18:15):
dollars or eighty dollars or one hundred and fifty. It's
going to be probably closer to a thousand or so
for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Or if you like break down like every component's going
to cost different, right, Like, so if you're just saying, hey,
I'm going to go get an EV charger at my home,
I mean you can go on Amazon to day and
kind of look at maybe a cheaper solution like in Poia,
which maybe get for like three ninety nine to a
more expensive solution that can probably range up to like
eight hundred bucks, but I think you're probably in the
range or buying a charger for your house somewhere between
(18:41):
like four to six hundred dollars. And then the installation
on that really just depends on what type of capacity
do you already have on your panel? Do you have
enough capacity? And if you do, that really helps save
you calls. But that means you don't need to go
increase your service panel. But if you, if you don't,
think there could be other elements that need to happen
here that can call.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
So yeah, that price does.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
It can swing just depending upon your current situation with your.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Home and what you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Right, So, some people still suffice off of level one charging.
My friend that I just mentioned, Susan Nelson who drives
to XC sixty, she just has level one.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Charging, right, level one that trickles, that's like.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Trickle charge, but she's got she's got thirty miles on
that battery, right, It kind of does it, you know,
like when you think about that, so it's.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Not always overnight. Maybe eight hours gets you thirty miles.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
That's enough for her it is enough for her for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Great. So, just as point of reference, that level one
that you just referred to, typically to add thirty or
forty miles, it's going to be overnight, eight, nine, ten hours. Possibly.
Then you go to level two, you might be able
to get the same charge thirty miles in fifteen minutes
or twenty minutes something like that. I don't know, half
an hour.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
A little bit longer than that, but yeah, bit longer.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, Yeah, you can definitely get get it much quicker
than the level one.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
So for you driving a model what was it model?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Why you said models?
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Models, I definitely wouldn't recommend level one charging.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
No be here all week, it'll be.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
There like three days trying to get some rain.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So you would definitely be like level two probably forty
to forty eight a charger.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, but the level three is what happens when we
go to a Tesla supercharger, and then that's in that
case you can add a lot of miles in twenty
thirty minutes. That's right, Okay, all right, So if you
agree with me, even if you don't agree with me,
I'd like to pivot now too, because I was really
excited to hear you talking about this sort of master
(20:41):
hub to solve all the complexities of different mechanisms and
software in your home. And let's move in for a
moment to charging stations for the car. That's right, and
you used to work at Tesla. Tesla's charging experience. I've
been driving Tesla's now for eight years. Phenomenal, reliable, convenient, quick, yes, simple,
(21:04):
one touch like boom, put it in, don't think, no payments,
not just done. Then you have this other universe, which is,
sorry to say, more like a nightmare. There's a lot
of complexity, a lot of things gone wrong. We hear
reports that one in three charging stations in the country
don't work. They're slow, they don't connect. Just talking to
(21:25):
a friend of mine in the business, they said, what's
the number one complaint for people going to charge in
non Tesla network? The charging doesn't start. So imagine pulling
up to a gas station by the way, I'd like
to put some gas in here. Well, I can't get start,
I can't actually start to pump the gas. That's a
reality for people. So talk to us a little bit
about Schneider's presence there. I believe you guys acquired ev
(21:47):
Connect not too long ago. Yeah, yes, what is what
do you guys do in that space?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, that's a really great, great question.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
So we're entering the charging space from two different kind
of aspects here, from a consumer aspect, from a residential
aspect for Michael at your house to have a solution
for you there. But then from also the commercial aspect.
So we'll start with the commercial aspect. Ebconnect was a
recent a recent acquisition that was made to really start
(22:19):
building out our consumer platform. So they're they're one of
the top software platforms out there with inside this base,
their agnostic they integrate with other hardware manufacturers out there
to be able to provide a software solution for for commercial,
for for for for for the commercial industry when Schneider.
Schneider is also about to be launching what we what's
(22:39):
called our charge Pro level two chargers, so that that
that charger is coming out right at the end of
this year early Q one. We're excited about launching that
to the space. And then there's one other element I
want to talk about. I'm going to bring this together here,
but another company that we partnered with the main acquisition
of was q Marrit so Q Marit is also a
very large electrical contractor and network base that provides installation
(23:02):
services and also O and M services at the same capacity.
So when we really looked at this, we said, how
do we start providing a full turn key solution. So
I mentioned qu Merit from the installation side, I mentioned
Abconnect from the software side, and then Schneider's released in
our own charger. There's one other key important ingredient here
(23:25):
that's put Schneider in a unique position. We make a
lot of switch gear, transformers, balance of system stuffs that
we already currently today sell to large properties. When they're
building out a building, they say that we need all
this switch gear and infrastructure for the electrical to be
able to go in. Right, We currently work with on
(23:46):
a lot of large emobility projects, being like, it's not
a Schneider charger today, but all the what we call
make ready gear and electrical infrastructure that's all Schneider that's
happening un any there, which when you really kind of
look at a total project calls inside of the eed space.
The majority of the costs, the lion's share of that
cost for anybody installing does not come from the charger.
(24:08):
Or the software it comes from the electrical infrastructure to
actually put this the chargers in the ground, and Schneider's
already in that space, and that puts us in a
unique position today when you look at the other OEMs
out there. Again, this kind of goes to this full
kind of cradle to great cradle turnkey solution that we'll
be able to provide the electrical infrastructure, the installation of that,
(24:32):
the charger of that, the software of that, and the
operation and maintenance of that, all off of one umbrella
with inside it side.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
And that gets to the core heart of the problem
today because as a user of charging services at Electrify
America or Evco or whatever, I have a lot of
different players, and when things go wrong, I don't know
who I can talk to. I'm sitting in my cars
ten o'clock at night, is cold, our charger going down
(25:01):
and it's not working. Who do I speak to? So
this sounds like an effort to sort of consolidate many
of the players under one roof.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
That's right, it's a very similar problem statement that I
just mentioned on the Schneider home side, right, Like people
at the home and there's all these great tier players
out there doing it, but it was kind of became
a HEINZ fifty seven to a degree on the side
of somebody's house.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
It's a similar thing that's kind of happening in the
charging space right now, where charging infrastructure is broken down,
and then you kind of start getting to the roots
of it.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
You're like, is it the software? Is it the hardware?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Then it's like who actually owns this? Does the charging
manufacturer own it?
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Is this right? Who's responsible?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I host own it? Was this based off grant funding?
Now the money's also he has money to go fix it?
Is that charging company is still even in business today?
So you're a spot on man. It's messy out there
right now. I think we're starting to see some consolidation happen, unfortunately,
and fortunately I think to a degree. I mean, over
this last three weeks we saw a big players like
(26:00):
EBA Global and LX, juice Box ev Box are kind
of falling out of the market in the space. I
don't like seeing that happen from a degree, just being
like pro people wanting to be in the space, But
there also has to become this element of consolidation to
kind of clean things up a bit and that's really
where Tesla has just had that headstart on, especially in
the supercharging network, where they were just like, we're going
(26:22):
to own it, we're going to operate it, we're going
to take four responsibility for the whole thing. It's a
one stop shop, and that has played out really well for.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Them, right, Speaking of Tesla, starting a year year and
a half ago, major OEMs around the world announced that
they were going to join the Tesla network and the
next standard, the North American Charging Standard, that was designed,
developed and originated by Tesla. How does that change the game,
if at all?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I think it definitely changes the game. I mean we're
seeing it right.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I think almost every major auto oem has now announced
that they're going to adopt the nacs. We've seen four
now provide adapters, and then GM's coming has the same
kind of adapter that will come with the charger, So
we're seeing it happen.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I think it's the right thing to do, the consolidation
of it.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
We can't have a bunch of different chargers out there,
and what car and plug tech just hard to scale
like that, right, So it's for sure the right move.
I also it's the right move, but it's created a
bump in the road along the way, which is a
bump that we need to go over. But with that bump,
it's also created more confusion with inside the space. I
think it's probably slow rolled people on like buying their
(27:28):
next eb a bit just being like, hey, I'm gonna
let kind of some of this playoffs, this dust settle
down for a minute, Like I see where it's going,
but I don't really want a car that has like
an outdated connector or like maybe it has a Chatamo
or something else on it. So it's like, I think
it's it's in the right direction. I think it's also
created a slight one step back for us to really
(27:50):
be able to launch forward, and it's it's a great connecting.
Domingon AX is great. So I think it's the right move.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
In the right direction.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Would would a Schneider Electric offering then feature NAS connector.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Or we'll have both and so we'll have a skew
for purchasing, one with the KNAS and one with the
JA seventeen seventy two on there.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
And until that kind of clears out, I think that that's.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
What a lot of the OEMs are doing right now
until we really see that the market share is clearly
at this point that's probably just going to take a
while because there's still just so many There's still a
lot of cars on the road. I think the North
American market, I don't think what is that like ten
percent right now at the adoption, So it's still low,
but that still has a lot of cars out there
that that there will have to be a product to
(28:35):
serve those cars for the years to come. So we
kind of recycle through those and actually get more of
a larger fleet that just has naps.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I think that that Jay seventeen seventy two is going
to be a viable option in the space for a bit.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Let's imagine your father in law goes, jumps into the water, says,
the water is fine. You told me it's fine. I
got my electric car. You get a call. It's eleven
o'clock Eastern times eight o'clock here in San Diego. You're
having your glass of wine, and your father in law goes,
I'm at a charging station is not working. What do
I do? Uh?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Huh, Yeah, that would be uh. I would say, ay,
how much state of charge do you have in your car?
Where are you at with your car and where are
you actually at right now? From there, I would kind
of walk him.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I would just basically ask him what charger it is,
trying to guide him through how to initiate a charge
on there, or at least reach out to some customer
sport there.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
If it seemed like it.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Was more of a loss calls for him to spend
the time there, I'd maybe direct him and say, hey, like,
there's probably another charging station a couple of miles down
the road.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
You might just want to drive over there, as opposed
to trying to go through it.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
But if he was in a situation where he's like
I have to charge here, I have five miles state
of charge left and we have to figure something out,
he would have to go through their steps right like
you'd have to look at the manufacturer of the charger.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Hopefully there's some sort of support.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Line that who does he call? Does he call the
car maker, say he buys in lightning? Does he call
Ford at that hour? Or do is he call what
does he call?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
If if I was my situation, I would be calling
the actual charger that's right in front of me with
the name right there.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
You get the name, It says.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Charge point or connector whoever it was that is titling
as the provider for that. I would start there. Unfortunately,
this is where it can get tricky. Right, you call
that hardware manufacturer, and the hardware manufacturer does what they say.
It's actually the software manufacturer side.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Right, it's not my Hey, whoa, it's not my that's
not what I do. Dude, that's not my thing.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
That's not my thing. It's over there.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So that's where Schnyder is really trying to say, we
don't want to put ourselves in that position with our
new products coming out, and we want to have a
stop shop from a support standpoint, whether it's a hardware
issue or whether it is a software issue, that we'll
be able to provide either a just already just a
really strong uptime of over ninety ninety nine percent uptime
guarantee that the charger is going to work, and.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
In those small percentages where.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
It is down, how do we address that customer with urgency,
Knowing that impacting somebody's transportation can greatly impact somebody's life.
They're trying to get if it's an emergency situation, trying
to take a kid home, trying to commute whatever it is, like,
transportation is a very important thing and that needs to
be handled with a high level of accountability and a
(31:17):
high level of dependability at the same time.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Now, with these stations feature that I pull up to,
I haven't seen a Schneider electric charger yet. I've seen
what Electrify America or ev go or what are the
charge point is there if you're out there with your
again with your father in law and you go, hey,
you know it for peace of mind, look for these brands.
Is there a Schiner Electric currently or will there be one?
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Schinder will be come in the market soon with our
level two charger. We have plans, We do have plans,
and we're really looking at the DC space, but nothing
has been announced in that arena yet. So we're focusing
first all on the level two market right now. So
that would probably be more so like fleet applications or
workplace applications or multi family applications. It probably wouldn't be
(32:06):
something where somebody is always going to be using if
they're doing some sort of commute to go across country or.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Something like that.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
But that remember that saying I just said earlier, dwell
time matters, right, So that this car is going to
be in a situation where the duell time probably needs
to be multiple hours, not just a quick thirty minute stop. Right.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
So, our current product that.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
We're coming in the market with is going to focus
more in that level two space as we continue to
look at the DC the DC space.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I want to go back to our earlier in our conversation.
You were working at Tesla. I imagine you must have
been tempted at a certain point to get one. Oh
for sure the models did the chief executive way in
at that point too, or what happened.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
No seen in a way in this I was working
at Tesla.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
When the models and Model X where the main car
is still being sold.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
It was in the midst of.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
The Model three quote unquote production, you know, the the
word after that that they've been So I actually left
Tesla right during the Model three, right after the Model
three launched, I went over to Charge Point. So, uh,
in that timeframe, the Model X and Model Y were
just something that were really great cars, but wasn't really
what I had my sights on.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
And then kind of.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Life happens were the cars that you already had, you know,
like hey, like let's let's just get the best all
of these cars. But definitely I got my site set
on a certain OEM that there's a couple OEMs that
I really like, So we'll see how it kind of
shakes out here.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Lightning, Did I hear Lightning?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
I like the Lightning. I do really do like the Lightning.
I think it's a great looking truck.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I like the Ribbans a lot solid review over the
Lucid Pure the other day, which is really cool car.
I mean, there's honestly, there's a lot of great options
out there right now today, so like I feel like whatever,
and then the next like twelve months, when when I
or anybody else goes into the market for looking for evs,
it's there are a lot of options. I think the
challenge more so be like how does a new consumer
(34:02):
kind of filter through the noise to understand which car
and what do they do and why type stuff? So
I think that there's still a level of just enablement
that needs to happen withinside of the market. If you
look at today, like we have the ability, people like
you Michael are doing that right now by doing even
interviews like this and trying to get it out there.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
I think in the past, like if you really think
about like.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Maybe you take take a couple of decades back or
a little bit around there, like the dealership actually was
like a big educator of the of the of the space, right,
Like is that still happening today in the EB space
or is that in general still happening. I think consumers
probably walking with a lot of understanding of a vehicle.
But I would still say the dealerships are a core
(34:46):
component to enablement to the evs and they shouldn't just
be looked at as as they're not. So I think
that that level of adoption at the dealership level and
that buy in is is going to be real important
to to getting our market share in the United States.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Hire and higher and hire tremendous. Chris, Sure, thank you
very much for your time today. I learned a lot.
How do people learn more about you and your products?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Yeah, so you can go to Schneider Scheider home dot com.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
You can check out all of our products on there,
from our solar battery EV chargers. We're going to be
making announcements on our charge pro that I just mentioned.
If you're a business and you're looking to get chargers
on your facility, or really look at bundling together a
package from like I talked about the electrical equipment to
(35:37):
the charger, to the OEM. We're going to have a
really unique offer to be able to come into the
space in twenty twenty five. You can also find that
on our website as well. So yeah, excited, excited for
the journey ahead. And Mike, I really enjoyed this conversation
as well. It's been great as cool knowing that you're
not you're not far away.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
We're local, Sandyegans, that's right, Go San Diego, Go Padres.
I don't know how we didn't make it past the Dodgers.
A travesty, but life goes.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
On, it does, it does.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Thanks so much and we'll see you soon.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
The arena of charging your electric car, it's rife with
complexity and emotions, but the direction is good. It's bound
to get better in the months and years to come.
When people tell me they're going electric and they asked
me to recommend a product, here are my three standard
sort of guidelines. One up until very recently, I would
(36:42):
definitely say by Tesla, if only to minimize stress related
to charging. That's because when it comes to charging. There's
the Tesla standard, and then there's everyone else. But now,
just in the last year or so, all other automakers,
virtually almost everybody is coming around to adopt the next standard.
(37:02):
That's the Tesla standard. What does that mean? If you're
driving a forward to GM, Volvo, Hondai, Honda, etc. You
can now begin to use this Tesla supercharger network. That's
some real progress. Peace of mind. Then, looking ahead, Schneider
Electric and its competitors are bound to make the experience
of non Tesla charging stations much much better in due course.
(37:25):
How patient are we? Hey? One more thing before we go.
Many listeners have requested to return to our fun practice
of including some Asian words at the end of the podcast.
As many of you know, I speak Chinese, Thai, and Indonesian,
having lived in Asia for twenty six years in each
of those countries. So let's have some fun with the
(37:47):
names of three different countries in Chinese today. First, China
in Chinese chung Guu, chung Guu. That's how you say
China in Chinese. How do you say America in Chinese?
May ga, may go? And one more, how do we
say England in Chinese? Well? That's easy, ying, go ying, go,
(38:13):
there you go. You've learned three new Chinese words in
less than fifteen seconds. Try them on your friends today. Hey,
that's a wrap on this episode of the Driving With
Done podcast. So delighted to be back at the podcast studio.
Do take a moment to check out our website www
dot doninsights dot com. We got great newsletters and podcasts
(38:38):
available to all. In addition to that, some good information
about what's happening globally with electric vehicle markets, with batteries,
and even some stuff on autonomous vehicles. That's all for now.
Thank you so much for joining. I am Michael Dunn,
and this is the Driving with Done podcast.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Where you meet the experts creating the technologies that will
power tomorrow's cars electric autonomous software. To find this is
a Driving with Done podcast.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Thank you for joining this episode of the Driving with
Done podcast.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
To connect with Michael, don visit Doninsights dot.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Com or find Michael on x or LinkedIn. This is
the Driving With Done Podcast
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