March 20, 2025 • 45 mins
We're trying something a little different this week! Michael Dunne recently appeared as a guest on the podcast FACE-OFF: The U.S. vs. China, where he had an insightful and engaging conversation with host Jane Perlez. He enjoyed the discussion so much that he wanted to share it with you. The description below is from the FACE-OFF podcast.
====================
Back in 2015 the Chinese government declared that they would become the world leader in EVs by 2025. Major car companies scoffed. Who wants an EV? Today, China automakers have surpassed Japan, Germany and the US to become the number one exporter of cars. A record number of Chinese EVs were sold globally last year. How did China become the global leader in EVs? We’ll talk with the man who literally wrote the book on the rise of China’s car industry.
Guest: Michael Dunne, Auto executive in China and the US, author American Wheels, Chinese Roads.
Book Recommendations: Michael Dunne’s new book expected mid-2025.Power Play: Tesla, Elon Musk and the Bet of the Century by Tim Higgins.
====================
Back in 2015 the Chinese government declared that they would become the world leader in EVs by 2025. Major car companies scoffed. Who wants an EV? Today, China automakers have surpassed Japan, Germany and the US to become the number one exporter of cars. A record number of Chinese EVs were sold globally last year. How did China become the global leader in EVs? We’ll talk with the man who literally wrote the book on the rise of China’s car industry.
Guest: Michael Dunne, Auto executive in China and the US, author American Wheels, Chinese Roads.
Book Recommendations: Michael Dunne’s new book expected mid-2025.Power Play: Tesla, Elon Musk and the Bet of the Century by Tim Higgins.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
We're top executives and crazy entrepreneurs gathered to talk about
the future of electric vehicles. This is the Driving with
Done podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hello and welcome to the one hundred and forty six
edition of the Driving With Done podcast. I am your host,
Michael Dunn. Hey, how about something new and different today?
You ready for that? Good? Because it's exactly what we
have in the works today. A special edition, we're sharing
a recording of an original conversation with Jane Perlez. Jane
(00:35):
is the host of the always compelling podcast called Face
Off The US Versus China. I recently got together with
Jane to talk about you guessed it, China electric cars
going global. Now a little bit about Jane. I first
came to know her about ten years ago when she
was a Beijing bureau chief for The New York Times.
(00:55):
She's smart, she knows China, and she has a talent
for asking exactly the right questions. In this episode, we
take on an exceptionally important topic, China's suddenly powerful auto
industry that's going global. Hey, how did it get so
good so fast? What role exactly did testa play in
(01:16):
China's ev explosion? And as Chinese companies back by choosing
Ping and co go global. What are the implications for
traditional automakers saying you're in America, or in Europe or
in Japan? Are Chinese car makers an existential threat to
the West. Let's look at the new realities with Jane Perlez,
(01:37):
host of Face Off, the US Versus China podcast here
on the Driving with Don podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Okay, I'll admit it. I'm a New Yorker. I don't drive.
I don't even own a car. In fact, I haven't
owned a car most of my adult life. So why
am I so endlessly fascinated by Chinese electric vehicles? It
could be the range of colors with their fantastical names
(02:21):
like Nebula green, Fantasy Blue, billowing white, and fresh rice.
Then there's Raptor brown, molten Cloud orange, and night black.
And I certainly can't forget the enigmatic color ten thousand meters.
While the colors are amusing, even more interesting is the
(02:44):
story of how Chinese electric vehicles have taken the world's
car market by storm.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Forty years ago or so, the Chinese auto industry barely existed.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Today, the country makes enough cars to supply half.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
The worlds four years China automakers have surpassed Japan, Germany
and the US to become the number one exporter of cars.
Brands like Neo, Geelely and especially BYD have become extremely popular.
Even movie star Leonardo DiCaprio is willing to sell out
(03:19):
and shield for BYD in slick, pseudo inspirational TV ads.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
And if we work together to build a brighter future for.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Today, you can make history tomorrow, make history.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Make history. Quite the lofty slogan for an electric car company.
You might be thinking, Wait, I've never seen a Chinese
ev That's because you probably haven't.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
President Biden is taking a hard line on Chinese imports,
charging a one hundred percent tariff on electric vehicles, a
move the President says will help US companies counter the
Chinese governments quote cheating and anti competitive practices.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Biden imposed that one hundred percent tariff in the spring
of twenty twenty four. The European Union followed, ratcheting up
tariffs to as much as forty five percent. The US
and Europe complain that the Chinese government gives the Chinese
brand an unfair advantage through subsidies and more so, what
does this all mean for the future? Of the Chinese
(04:22):
and American car industries. That's the subject of our show today.
I'm Jane Perlez and this is Face Off, a show
about the US China story. The Evy Battle is one
of the most interesting and potentially consequential US China tales
(04:44):
today and my guest is one of the smartest people
on this subject, Michael Dunn. He's a Detroit native who
has spent his career in the auto industry, including a
stint as the head of GM in Indonesia. He's the
author of American Wheels, Chinese Roads, and an upcoming yet
(05:05):
to be titled book about the US China Battle of EV's.
I started out conversation by asking him just how did
this astonishing rise of Chinese EV's come about?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
The beginning? Where do we start this story? For me?
I go back to a conference I attended in two
thousand and nine. It was held in Beijing, a big
summit around EV's and it was hosted by the Minister
of Science and Technology, a very important guy named One Gang.
And One Gong gave a speech that day and he said,
(05:42):
we here in China should be celebrating a victory. We're
now the largest manufacturer of cars of any country in
the world. We buy more cars than any other country
in the world, but it feels like an empty victory.
I'm frustrated. And the audience thought, what frustrated? What about?
And he said, look at the streets of Shanghai, Beijing,
(06:03):
and Blank Joe. They're all foreign cars. We've got Buicks
and Chevyes and Hyundai's and Toyotas and Mercedes. But where
are the Chinese cars? Number One? Then he went on
to say that's not all. We got another big problem.
We've now become the largest importer of oil in the world.
We're dependent on Mid East oil and we could get
into quagner as similar to what the US experiences. In
(06:27):
addition to that, look at our skies with these gasoline
powered vehicles. We have this orange brown colored sky's terrible pollution.
So what are we going to do about it? And
at that time he proposed an idea that seemed outlandish,
and that was we'll be the leader in electric vehicles.
We can do this, and they the audience. There were
(06:50):
hardly any car companies there. There are mostly political types
or academics, and everyone in the audience sort of said, well,
that's a crazy idea that will probably never happen, but
he put it out there as early as two thousand
and nine.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
At the same time, though, there was another one more
important one actually, the founder of China's leading EV company
byd Wang chang Fu, who was doing business back in
the nineties making batteries for Motorola. He kept making smart decisions,
including hiring wolfgung Egger, a big deal Audi designer, and
(07:30):
because one knew how to make batteries but was not
so good at car design, the Udi guy was really important.
I want to know if you met Wang Chau Fu,
what's made him so successful? And I think one of
the richest guys in China.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
That's right, he is one of the richest guys in China. Engineer,
low key, smart, laser focused. Then two thousand and three,
I remember I was in Beijing, came into the office
and everyone's a buzz. Oh Wang Chuanfu, the battery maker.
The chairman has decided to acquire a bankrupt automaker in
Chian called Chin Swan Motors. What he's going into the
(08:09):
car business. Days earlier, he had had a board meeting
and he proposed this idea. I'm going to take us
into the car business, and all the other board members said,
bad idea. It's capital intensive, there's lots of competition, will
never make it. He said, I don't care. We're going.
So he then acquired this company, and he wasn't even
(08:30):
ready to put batteries into the car. He actually licensed
engines from Mitsubishi to power his first cars. These are
gasoline powered engines. But he got his big break in
two thousand and eight September when Berkshire and Warren Buffett
got together and said, this guy's actually a genius. He
has a vision and he's going to build electric cars
(08:51):
that will be great. Let's invest in him now. They
put two hundred and fifty million dollars into the company
for about ten percent share, and that got Rebuddy's attention.
If Warren Buffett believes in this guy, he must know
what he's doing.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So are you saying basically that Buffett is like a
co founder of the Chinese ev success.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
No Warren Buffett, no Berkshire. Maybe this company doesn't ever
really gather traction. That was the feeling on the ground
in China as I lived it. Byd was an outsider,
long shot. The cars that put together nobody really wanted.
Chinese consumers said, why would I buy a BYD when
I could buy much better products from the foreign automakers.
(09:36):
That was a sentiment until Buffett invested. And then suddenly
the tenor changed. Oh, this company's legit, and.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
What's the backstory of why Buffett invested.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Buffett will be the first person to tell you he
didn't understand the business so much, but he said, I'm
convinced that this guy's a genius and he's going to
make good things happen. And the actual investment was made
on the business case, not for cars, but for energy storage. Yes,
Bidea has been doing batteries forever, since the mid nineties.
(10:09):
They've gotten very good at it. They will be able
to supply those batteries to energy service storage companies. And
that's the business model Buffet invested in, not in cars.
That would only come later that cars started to take off.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
But while we're on batteries, which are an essential component
obviously of evs, I'm told there as important or maybe
more important for an EV as a combustion engine is
for a regular car. The essential component for batteries is nickel.
And you and I have both lived in Indonesia. You
(10:45):
were head of GM in Indonesia. I was a foreign
correspondent there for a number of years, and nickel is
one of Indonesia's biggest raw materials, and the Chinese started
to invest heavily in Indonesia huge nickel minds. What's curious
to me is how was China president enough to invest
there early in the nickel and the US was nowhere
(11:09):
to be seen.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
This is at a time, Jane, when electric car sales
globally were minuscule. So China made a big bet starting
in twenty fourteen in this thing we all know now
called Made in China twenty twenty five, where they made
a blueprint and said, we China want to lead in
next generation technologies that includes AI, autonomous vehicles, electric vehicles,
(11:34):
and batteries. How do we do that? We start today
in twenty fourteen, investing billions of dollars into mines worldwide,
into processing of the critical minerals from those minds, into
manufacturing our own batteries here at home, when the rest
of the world was still on the fence. Do we
want to go electric? We're quite happy with our gasoline
(11:55):
powered vehicles. What's the urgency. Why go electric?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I mean, what was the discussion like at GM in
twenty fourteen when China came out with this plan.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
The idea was, wow, that is ambitious. But you know,
having lived in China since the nineties, nineteen nineties, my
first year living there, China would come up with these
audacious plans and then revise them or set them aside.
So when we heard of China wanting to be the
global leader in electric vehicles, there's a little bit of
(12:27):
a shrug. Like well, from nineteen eighty five until now,
it's been the global automakers that dominate this market. Chinese
consumers prefer global brands. Why wouldn't a Chinese electric car
maker be able to be successful? A lot of doubt,
a lot of skepticism. Not sure this is a slam
dunk at all.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned this program
made in China twenty twenty five. I can remember when
it came out, and you know, honestly I didn't know
what to make of it. I mean, business was not
really my VALI wick when I was covering China, until
one day the German ambassador called up and said, hey, Jane,
why didn't you come over there some things, some interesting
(13:10):
things to explain about made in China twenty twenty five.
And I then got on the program and I understood,
But it's baffling to me that the US auto companies
just let this go by.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It is baffling in retrospect. At the time, keep in
mind that US automakers and the Germans and the Japanese
were making money handover fists selling their own products into
their China market, and Chinese consumers couldn't buy them fast enough.
Just love those brands, especially the premium brands from Germany,
(13:45):
the Mercedes and BMW, Noadi's, And after twenty five years
of this, it was almost impossible for people on the
ground to imagine that suddenly Chinese consumers would shift to
electrics and to Chinese brands, the kind of future that
we're now experiencing today.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So let's come to today. You know, the big gripe
in Washington is the subsidies, endless gripes about free land,
text breaks, endless things that the Chinese government is supposed
to be giving away to the Chinese ev makers. When
(14:22):
did those subsidies start and what are the most important
subodies that Chinese carmakers get that, American ones don't. It's
a long list, but what are the most crucial Jane.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
When it comes to subsidies, the Chinese government at the
central level, at the local level, the provincial level get
very creative. How can we help these companies be successful?
There's low interest loans is their favorite tool. They also
give land for free. When you need energy to power
your factories, oh, we can discount that as well. You
(14:54):
need your employees trained, yes, Oh, you need employees who
don't command as higher wage. We can bring them from
a different provins. You're exporting yet, we can get you
money back on the exports. You're manufacturing, your suppliers need help,
we can be there for you. So when you add
it all up, the Chinese are able to manufacture cars
at twenty five percent to thirty percent lower cost than
(15:17):
we are in the West, and that's really hard for
non Chinese countries to compete with right now.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
So these subsidies are really critical in getting Chinese evs
on the roads, both in China and outside China.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Definitely, subsidies were crucial to the takeoff of electric vehicles
inside China.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So talking about Tesla, now half of all Tesla's are
made in China. What impact is Tesla's manufacturing in Shanghai
had on the Chinese EV companies, in particular BYD the leader.
Has it been much transfer of personnel and expertise from
Tesla to BYD? How has that worked?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
So? Did start manufacturing in the first quarter of twenty
twenty their Model three in a brand new, beautiful factory
just outside of Shanghai that cost a couple of billion
dollars to build and was done so in ten months time,
record time. Usually a factory like that would take a
(16:19):
couple of years here in the States.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Do you have any idea how big the workforce was.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I don't know. The number would have been several thousand
people that Elon announced We're going to make one hundred
thousand cars in our first year, which was really unbelievable
at the time. You're going to go from zero to
one hundred thousand in a market for electrics. It's still
not proven, let's see. So they got underway right into
COVID as soon as they started production, factories had its
(16:46):
closed and Elon got in there and said, we're not closing,
We're staying open. Tesla was the last plant to be
closed and the first one to reopen.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So how long were they closed for?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
For about five weeks in all that all, and so
they were able to reopen quickly. And when they reopened
workers came back. I later talked to some of them
and they said they couldn't believe the orders were through
the roof. People were crazy to get their hands on
this thing called the Model three. Now, keep in mind,
up until then, demand for electric cars and Chinese electric
(17:19):
cars was still lukewarm. People weren't that enthusiastic about it.
It didn't have appeal. Electric cars were slow, or unreliable,
or short of range, and what about the charging, lots
of doubts. After TESL stepped into the market, there's a
transformation in the way electrics were perceived, and suddenly they
became the new cool. And as a result, Chinese automakers
(17:43):
like BYD, Neo, Xpunk and others that were really struggling
at the time. One of them named Neo, was about
to go bankrupt at that same time and needed a
billion dollar lifeline from the province of Anhui to stay alive.
There's this knock on effect. Tuessels became super popular, not
only did they sell one hundred thousand cars? They sold
one hundred and thirty five thousand cars in the first year,
(18:05):
blowing away everyone's expectations. There's like a halo effect that
extended to electric cars, and Chinese electric cars in particular.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So I suppose as nationalism increased, or the feeling of
pride in China increased in twenty twenty onwards, the idea
of Chinese evs came on. Was that the effect.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
That's absolutely what happened. You know, there's almost like a
before twenty twenty and after twenty twenty, before Tesla and
after Tesla. Tesla was a proof of concept that electrics
could be exciting, like a school of fish in the
ocean suddenly pivoting in a different direction. We saw Chinese
(18:47):
consumers who up until then said I don't want a
Chinese car, and I definitely don't want an electric car,
flip and say I want nothing more than an electric
car that's got IT brand on it.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
And how much transfer was there from Tesla to BYD
and Neo and the other Chinese evs, Or were the
Chinese EV car makers already up to speed and they
didn't need anything from Tesla that's the.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Great black box. Tesla did bring in its own suppliers,
and China definitely made it part of the deal. You
can own one hundred percent of your operation here at Tesla,
provided that you bring your suppliers to China too. So
they moved in, and for those of us who have
lived in China, we understand when it comes to intellectual property,
(19:39):
there's very little to stop that from leaking. So once
that suppliers on the ground in China, then through the
side door, through the back door, that intellectual property and
know how it's going to leak sideways to other Chinese automakers.
So that's part of the story, but it's not all
of it. Jane. Also going on is that for years
(20:01):
global automakers had been bringing their own suppliers into the market.
So when a BYD needed seats or wheels or a
motor or electronics, they had the washes and the Denzos
and the Lears and the magnus already in China in
their backyard, world class suppliers that they can now draw
from two So it was sort of built in China.
(20:24):
They didn't have to develop their own industry in a way.
They already had the global industry camped inside China. So
one thing is BYD did hire Wolfgang Eigers several years
before from Audi. He's a world class designer. He built
a team of six hundred people to say, let's create
(20:45):
world class looking vehicles. And so the look and appearance
of BID vehicles have went from the outhouse to the
penthouse in just a few years, much better looking. And
that's important in China, where images everything. Why am I
buying this car for the performance? No, to tell my
friends that I've arrived. I got a great look in
new vehicle. So part of it was they invested a
(21:08):
lot in design. The second part was they doubled down
on their investments in making world class batteries, of course,
which are the engines of the evs. And this is
where the story gets a little bit juicy. Apple at
the same time was working in a top secret project
(21:29):
called Titan since twenty sixteen to design, engineer, and develop
a world class electric and autonomous vehicle that would compete
with Tesla and be better than Tesla. Along the way,
Apple began doing close cooperation with BYD on batteries, in particular,
how do we design the world's most efficient battery and
(21:54):
lo and Behold twenty twenty one byd announces We've got
this fantastic new battery called the Blade. It's more reliable,
it's safer, it's more efficient than anything we've seen before
the industry. And they're right, the Blade battery is a
phenomenal product. What's unclear is to the extent to which
(22:17):
that battery may have been may have been designed and
engineered with the help of Apple geniuses working on this
Titan pro.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It seems pretty clear it was. It was probably designed
in Cupatino.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Right, Apple's tagline is designed in California, manufactured in China
or assembled in China.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
And if we can just insert a little parenthetical here,
Apple announced recently that they were not going to go
ahead with their autonomous vehicles.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I talked to some partners at Sequoia Capital, a very
powerful and influential outfit in Silicon Valley, and at a
certain point around the same time, I said, why is
Apple hesitating? Why aren't they moving forward with this project Titan?
And they said, and these are very well connected people
(23:08):
who know both Apple and Tesla's leaders, and they said,
Apple looks at Tesla and says, not sure we can
do it better than they're doing it. So you got
a couple of different things going on. One, they're trailing
the mass market manufacturer that's BYD of electric vehicles. And secondly,
they felt as though Tesla has a very big lead
(23:31):
when it comes to the software side of the business.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Too, and they felt that they'd be the third competitor
and that they're not used to being They.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Don't like to be number three. We're number one, Jane,
we do Apple 're Apple.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
So this raises the specter of what's going to happen
to Detroit. I mean, let's just look over what Bill Fowley,
the CEO of Ford said about China's EVS. Fali went
to China a couple of times, and he was quoted
as saying to a member of the Ford board, this
(24:04):
is an existential threat. I mean, finally, the penny seems
to have dropped that Chinese expertise and manufacturing cloud and
evs is really this existential threat. What can Ford in
particular and the rest of Detroit do about this China's
ev power or do they not want to do anything
about it? They think that Americans are just going to
(24:25):
continue to drive guest guzzling cars.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
There is a new sheriff in town. Its name is
China and Ford CEO Jim Farley is just waking up
to that reality, and he's called it out and said,
if we don't get our act together, we could be
eviscerated in the coming years. I mean, just to put
a little bit of this in perspective, Jane, China today
has capacity to supply half of the world's demand for cars.
(24:53):
So in a market of ninety million, they have forty
five million units of capacity. They already build more electric
vehicle than all other countries combined. And oh, by the way,
they're also now suddenly the world's number one exporter, surpassing
Japan and Germany. In fact, if you go to Thaighland,
South Africa, Israel, Chile, Australia, you're going to see a
(25:17):
lot of Chinese cars. It's only here on the island
of North America that we look out the window and
we see what's the big deal? What's this thing about
existential threat? There's no Chinese cars on the road here,
but we're in a walled garden. Farley recognizes that more
and more people in America need to wake up to that.
What do we do about that, and the key is
(25:38):
look at the success of Tesla and understand that it's
a software defined vehicle. It's software that's the future differentiator
of cars. It's not the hardware, the pounding together of
manufactured parts. It's the brains the vehicle that's going to
differentiate the winners and losers. We need more skunk works
(26:00):
startups with brilliant, innovative, risk taking founders. That's the way
we're going to compete. And so Ford, GM and Stalantis
to survive, cannot hope to do the same thing they've
done for the last one hundred years. They have to
create side companies that are risk taking, innovative, and creative.
(26:24):
A betting person looking at this situation would be saying extinction.
Likelihood of extinction very.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
High in what period of time do you think, Michael?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Sometimes I think is China a canary in the coal mine.
So if we look at GM, Ford Stalanta's experience in China,
there's an arc. They did exceptionally well for many years,
but today they're doing very poorly. Stalantis's joint venture went bankrupt.
Ford's lost billions of dollars in the last few years
(26:57):
in China. If they can compete in China, and they're
not competing elsewhere in the world. Now we're just back
hunkering down at home and holding out like who are
at the Alamo. It could be that within the next
five to seven years they're in serious trouble.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Well, and they're hunkering at home making gasoline cars correct.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Correct, Detroit's building full size SUVs and trucks, paying out
bonuses because financially, yeah, we're doing great, but it's not real.
It's not global. Chairman Maoyol, appreciate this with your years
in China. When China had a civil war nineteen forty
five to forty nine, his strategy was simple. He said,
(27:39):
we're going to take the countryside and surround the cities.
Mao went with his forces and surrounded the cities by
taking the countryside. What's going on in the world today.
Chinese automakers are taking every other market in the world
and surrounding today basically the United States and Europe.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You know, we haven't talked about tariff's yet, so I
guess we have to tackle this subject and maybe we'll
do it this way. Do you think China will build
ev factories in Mexico and be successful in bringing them
into the US.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
What we know for sure today, Jane, is that the
number one supplier of cars to the Mexican market is China.
They're just pouring in there. As in Mexico City a
few weeks ago, I couldn't believe. Everywhere there's billboards and
new products coming into the market. So they're exporting in
big numbers to Mexico, that's for sure. Until Mexico perhaps
(28:35):
follows the US lead and puts in place some tariffs,
that's when we'll see whether or not the Chinese are
prepared to invest into Mexico to service the Mexican market.
Look for the Chinese to do exactly that. They will
build plants in Mexico, ostensibly in phase one to supply
the Mexican market, but let's not be naive. The real
(28:59):
purpose of those plants will be to manufacture for export
up into the North American market. That's the reality.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
But you know, we've been concentrating on BYD. You know,
I love the name. It's designed to.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Say, build your dreams.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Build your dreams. But you know, we've been talking so
much about the upside, the upside, the upside of EVS
and BYD. But I noticed that Warren Buffett is selling
down his shares in BYD. What's going on?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
It wasn't that long ago that someone asked Warren Buffett
why he invested in TSMC, the master chip maker in Taiwan,
and then divest it. It just happened within one quarter,
and his answer was telling. He said, I don't like
the geography. It's meaning too much risk, given what China
(29:48):
might like to do with Taiwan. I think by extension.
He looks at BYD and BYD's aggressive growth globally and says,
you know what, I think, I want to tone down
my ownership in that company. I've made great profits, had
a phenomenal run. Let me just wind it back.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
A little interesting. I don't quite see that. I understand
devesting in TSMC. I don't quite understand why he'd want
to phase out of BYD. He thinks they've reached their peak.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Maybe it's intensive competition at home among the Chinese price
wars and over capacity and margins are being driven down
to wood chip finn So he might look at that
and say BYD had an edge, but it's going to
be it's going to evaporate, it's going to vanish as
(30:38):
shall me an ex punk and neo and all these
other players come to put pressure on byd.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
So I'm just dying to hear about this. You've got
an upcoming book called Electric Car Wars. If you were
a betting man, but you're also the writing man, who
are you placing your bed on Us or China?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
And why a betting man would say China has this
hands down. They have a ten year lead in their
ability to make electrics, They own the battery supply chains,
they have control of many of the minds. The US
is like a long shot. Wow. However, as many people
(31:21):
before me have said, I don't want to bet against America,
an American ingenuity and innovation. Provided that Americans wake up
to this like they woke up to the spot Nick
so many years ago, we can definitely compete and prevail.
But today we're the underdog. That's the big story here, Jane.
(31:42):
You know, for the last hundred years it's been America leading.
What if we're not in charge? What if we're not
in the lead, how do we then catch up? How
do we innovate? So as a writer, well, you have
to get the book. Then you find out.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Michael Dunn, thank you very much, and I think there
will be many buyers of the book Electric Car Wars.
Thank you so much. Great to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Thank you. Jane.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Michael Dunn is the CEO of Dunn Insights. He has
a book coming on the US China EV Wars. Watch
for it up next. I'm joined by my friend and
China historian Rana Mitter. We're back. I'm here with my friend,
(32:39):
China historian Rana Mitter. Rana, good to have you here
to talk about cars, though neither of us are really
what shall we say, big drivers on the open road.
Do you even own a car?
Speaker 4 (32:52):
I'm sorry to say I don't. I take advantage of
the fact that the city that I know, I love here,
Boston and Cambridge, is one of the very few metropolis
in the US which has actually pretty good public transport.
So no EV for you at the moment, I don't
think so, although I have to say that that may
not be a choice that's being made elsewhere. A lot
of people I know are feeling very tempted by these
(33:12):
amazing models and the amazing colors that they come in.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
What do you think, Rana, Because of Trump's favorite word, tariffs,
they are basically very few Chinese EV's in the United States,
although Biden actually snammed one hundred percent tariffs on Chinese EV's,
and of course under Trump it looks like they're going
to stay. But if Chinese EV's were allowed in the US,
(33:35):
would American drivers go for them?
Speaker 4 (33:38):
I think that maybe one of the best parallels, Jane
is TikTok, because if you said in the abstract, would
you know, millions of American consumers, including the young, go
for an app which have been designed in an authoritarian state,
in a company that essentially had to do the bidding
of the Chinese Communist Party, You'd say no, No, freedom
(33:58):
loving Americans, absolutely no where that they want to take
this up. And yet I hope I'm not spoiling surprise
for you here, Jane, TikTok turns out to be quite
popular in the US, no kidding. I think when it
comes to vehicles, it's clearly a combination of you know, price,
efficiency and actually style, you know, the issue of whether
or not you want to be seen driving one of
these things. You'll remember, way back in the nineteen fifty
(34:21):
sixties during the Cold War, one of the things that
got in the way of Japanese cars coming into the
US was that they just didn't look very good. They
looked pretty clunky, and then they started to get very
very swish. I think that the Chinese have, as so
often as the case leaped to stage and technology. They're
producing some pretty fine looking cars and security issues aside.
If you look at Europe, if you look at many
(34:42):
parts of the growing economies of Asia, that's where those
evs are really taking off. Will American consumers push back, Well,
that's really what the Trump play is all about.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
I guess we'll have to wait and see. But there
is an interesting aspect about EV's which could perhaps hurt
us here in the United States. You know, when I
finished talking to Michael, I talked to him off Mike
he thought Beijing would squeeze Elon Musk and his Tesla
plant in Shanghai as a way to get concessions from Trump,
(35:15):
and Musk does seem a pretty easy target for China.
How do you think the Chinese government could go after
Musk's Tesla operation in Shanghai. We're going to take a
slightly different view on what might happen with the Elon
Musk situation, partly because I think one of the things
we've learned over the last few weeks and months is
that nothing is predictable. You know, things will often go
in some very unexpected directions. But think about this for
(35:36):
a moment.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
If you're Beijing and you feel that you want leverage
on the United States, then essentially you need a group
of people who are willing to actually make a kind
of fairly frank and solid case in their own country
that dealing with China is a good idea. I suspect
a lot of powerful people in China probably think, rightly
or wrongly, that Elon Musk may be one of those people.
(36:00):
Smart guy, even if he's being squeezed subtly, he'll know
he's being squeezed. And I think the likelihood that any
powerful figure is going to want to speak up openly
for China if they feel that actually they're being blackmailed
into it is very limited. So I think that actually
when it comes to Elon Musk, regardless of what happens,
Beijing will probably leave them alone in that sense, because
(36:20):
the value of someone who can actually speak to powerful
people in Washington is greater if it's not coerced. The difference,
of course, comes if the relationship between Musk and Trump
does not continue to be warm, and that might lead
to a different sort of outcome.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
You know something that's just come to mind, Rana. If
there's head to head battle with a Tesla versus byd
or on other Chinese EV models in Europe or Latin America,
which do you think would win? Which do you think
has the biggest appeal for consumers.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
I think that a lot of that will come down
to whether or not the domestic markets in those countries
can produce products that can compete. So you mentioned Europe,
Let's think about the fact that in large parts of
Central Europe, in France and Germany, to some extent in Italy,
you have auto manufacturers who are desperately looking to shift
(37:12):
to evs.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Now.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
Unlike the United States, those big players, the VW's Mercedes
Is are getting very much into a relationship with Chinese technology.
There are tariffs in Europe, we know this as there
are in the US, but they're for a different purpose.
When it comes to tariffs on EV's in the US,
they're basically about keeping evs from China out. In Europe,
(37:34):
it's very much about saying, okay, we want to orient
the investment into a way that helps to make sure
that domestic production of evs in Europe is more effective
and efficient. And so I think the answer to your
question is that in a generation or so, if things
go as the Europeans want, then people will be driving
VW as Mercedes is that actually have those labels and
(37:55):
the style that comes from those particular manufacturers. But a
lot of what will be under the bonnet actually is
going to have made in China written on it, including
the all important battery, especially the all important battery. I mean,
one of the things that clearly Europe, India, whole ride
of other players want to do is to develop more
indigenous battery production capacity. They will get there, is my guess,
(38:17):
but they're not going to get there next year or
even perhaps in three to five years time. It will
take longer than that. And in that intervening period when
people aren't going to be waiting around for cars, China
is going to be in a powerful position in terms
of having a really important lock on large parts of
the battery industry.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
It's incredible to me that America and Europe have allowed
China to get so far ahead on battery technology. I mean,
one of the things that clearly has to be if
excuse a motoring kind of pun, but about people being
asleep of the wheel. When we think about what that means,
it's about choices investment. China didn't get to be where
(38:53):
it is now on EVS simply through wishing for it.
It involved, of course, a lot of things, including taking
designs that were basically found elsewhere and taking them, often
without attribution, back into China. That that did happen.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
At the same time, China was also putting very very
significant amounts some money year by year, decade by decade
into scientific research and development, training a lot of students
who would do technology, maths and so forth, having huge
workforce that was more able to underpin that changing technological environment.
(39:26):
And it's only the last few years that whether it's
the field of cars or whether it's AI, they've been
reaping the benefits absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I mean, it's incredible the number of engineering students they
have at universities compared to the United States, for example, and.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
There's going to be more.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
One of the things that, for instance, is a plan
for the GBA, the Greater Bay Area, which are supposed
to integrate over time Hong Kong Macau, Shunjan and large
parts of southern China is that there's going to be
more investment there in technology universities and also I think
actually EV battery technology as well well, so the building
(40:01):
up of hubs. It's not quite Silicon Valley, but you
might want to say on a battery city something like
that or a series of battery cities in southern China
could be if not forever, at least for the twenty
thirties twenty forties a really important part of creating a
new industrial nexus that actually has the capacity to reflect
out into Southeast Asia, into these emerging markets in the
(40:25):
Global South, and as I've said, not in the US,
but actually more and more possibly into Europe.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
You know, I can't resist asking do you see this surge,
this domination in evs by China as being the death
knell of Detroit in the longer run, not tomorrow, not
next year, but in the future. I think one of
the things that you should never underestimate is the resilience
of the American economy. So, for instance, it was said
(40:51):
back in the nineteen seventies and eighties that the United
States and Detroit were essentially permanently doomed because of Japanese imports,
and actually Detroit General Motors Ford managed to get their
act together to create a new generation of vehicles that
actually once again put a lot of American vehicles on top.
If you think also about a firm like Ford, it
(41:12):
actually has a significant presence of it's own in China
as well, so it's expanded into THEIRS markets. So there's
nothing inevitable about it. What I think is going to
be problematic is if there is a decision that actually
the United States is simply not going to have any
kind of involvement in the emerging ev world at all,
because the course consumer demand in much of the rest
(41:33):
of the world is going to be in that direction.
Let's say the Trump administration is saying subsidies for evs
that's over or heavily reduced. But California, you know, a
state that has an economy the size of many large countries,
has already put a huge amount of investment which is
not going to rip out now in terms of creating
more and more of their infrastructure. Also, just across the
(41:54):
border in Mexico, more and more manufacturing plants that of
course have a lot of Chinese investments are going to
be producing EV's.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
Now. Of course, you can have a rule that basically says, well,
there's a massive tariffor on needs that they come across
the border. But in the end, over time, it seems
that if you're going to build that kind of capacity
and there is demand, then actually, in the end consumers
will change what they want you to do. Not forgetting
that the reason, the fundamental reason that all of this
(42:23):
change is happening is climate change. There is a global
crisis that whatever politicians may think, is not simply going
to go away.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
As always, thank you Rana, Thanks Jane, and thank you
for listening to face Off. If you want to read
more about EV's in China, I recommend Michael Dunn's new
book expected this year in the meantime for an excellent
inside look at how a Mask pulled off the Tesla
investment in Shanghai. Check out Powerplay, Tesla, Elon Musk, and
(42:56):
The Bet of the Century by Tim Higgins. I'll put
links to these book in our show notes next week
on the show Forget the Space Race. The biggest competition
between the US and China is over artificial intelligence.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Every once in a while comes a general purpose technology
that changes everything today. It's artificial intelligence. The US is
the world leader in AI, but they're looking over their
shoulder because China is catching up and aiming to be
number one by twenty thirty.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Who will be the AI superpower and what does this
mean for the world. This project is made possible by
the general support of the Carnegie Corporation. Face Off is
hosted and reported by me Jane Perlez, special guest run
(43:57):
A Mitter. Our production team is Mia Lobel, Nina Pozzuki,
and Frank Joe. Sound design and mixing by John Myers
and Alex Lewis of Rohan Productions. Original score by Alex Lewis.
Show art by Good Tape Studio. Special thanks to Maggie
Taylor and Paul Bogart's Special thanks also to the Belfer
(44:21):
Center at the Harvard Kennedy School for their support.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Boy, I really enjoyed talking to Jane. Why she's a
complete professional, someone who has seen the world and gets it.
Some serious deep wisdom and intuition at play there. Listen up.
If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did,
don't forget to share it with friends, And while you're
at it, be certain to encourage them to add Faceoff
(45:04):
US Versus China to their podcast favorites List two. I
am Michael Dunn and this is the Driving With Done podcast.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Where you meet the experts creating the technologies that will
power tomorrow's cars electric autonomous software. To find this is
the Driving with Done podcast. Thank you for joining this
episode of the Driving with Done podcast. To connect with
Michael Dunn, visit doneinsights dot com or find Michael on
(45:34):
x or LinkedIn This is the Driving With Done Podcast
We're top executives and crazy entrepreneurs gathered to talk about
the future of electric vehicles. This is the Driving with
Done podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hello and welcome to the one hundred and forty six
edition of the Driving With Done podcast. I am your host,
Michael Dunn. Hey, how about something new and different today?
You ready for that? Good? Because it's exactly what we
have in the works today. A special edition, we're sharing
a recording of an original conversation with Jane Perlez. Jane
(00:35):
is the host of the always compelling podcast called Face
Off The US Versus China. I recently got together with
Jane to talk about you guessed it, China electric cars
going global. Now a little bit about Jane. I first
came to know her about ten years ago when she
was a Beijing bureau chief for The New York Times.
(00:55):
She's smart, she knows China, and she has a talent
for asking exactly the right questions. In this episode, we
take on an exceptionally important topic, China's suddenly powerful auto
industry that's going global. Hey, how did it get so
good so fast? What role exactly did testa play in
(01:16):
China's ev explosion? And as Chinese companies back by choosing
Ping and co go global. What are the implications for
traditional automakers saying you're in America, or in Europe or
in Japan? Are Chinese car makers an existential threat to
the West. Let's look at the new realities with Jane Perlez,
(01:37):
host of Face Off, the US Versus China podcast here
on the Driving with Don podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Okay, I'll admit it. I'm a New Yorker. I don't drive.
I don't even own a car. In fact, I haven't
owned a car most of my adult life. So why
am I so endlessly fascinated by Chinese electric vehicles? It
could be the range of colors with their fantastical names
(02:21):
like Nebula green, Fantasy Blue, billowing white, and fresh rice.
Then there's Raptor brown, molten Cloud orange, and night black.
And I certainly can't forget the enigmatic color ten thousand meters.
While the colors are amusing, even more interesting is the
(02:44):
story of how Chinese electric vehicles have taken the world's
car market by storm.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Forty years ago or so, the Chinese auto industry barely existed.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Today, the country makes enough cars to supply half.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
The worlds four years China automakers have surpassed Japan, Germany
and the US to become the number one exporter of cars.
Brands like Neo, Geelely and especially BYD have become extremely popular.
Even movie star Leonardo DiCaprio is willing to sell out
(03:19):
and shield for BYD in slick, pseudo inspirational TV ads.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
And if we work together to build a brighter future for.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Today, you can make history tomorrow, make history.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Make history. Quite the lofty slogan for an electric car company.
You might be thinking, Wait, I've never seen a Chinese
ev That's because you probably haven't.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
President Biden is taking a hard line on Chinese imports,
charging a one hundred percent tariff on electric vehicles, a
move the President says will help US companies counter the
Chinese governments quote cheating and anti competitive practices.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Biden imposed that one hundred percent tariff in the spring
of twenty twenty four. The European Union followed, ratcheting up
tariffs to as much as forty five percent. The US
and Europe complain that the Chinese government gives the Chinese
brand an unfair advantage through subsidies and more so, what
does this all mean for the future? Of the Chinese
(04:22):
and American car industries. That's the subject of our show today.
I'm Jane Perlez and this is Face Off, a show
about the US China story. The Evy Battle is one
of the most interesting and potentially consequential US China tales
(04:44):
today and my guest is one of the smartest people
on this subject, Michael Dunn. He's a Detroit native who
has spent his career in the auto industry, including a
stint as the head of GM in Indonesia. He's the
author of American Wheels, Chinese Roads, and an upcoming yet
(05:05):
to be titled book about the US China Battle of EV's.
I started out conversation by asking him just how did
this astonishing rise of Chinese EV's come about?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
The beginning? Where do we start this story? For me?
I go back to a conference I attended in two
thousand and nine. It was held in Beijing, a big
summit around EV's and it was hosted by the Minister
of Science and Technology, a very important guy named One Gang.
And One Gong gave a speech that day and he said,
(05:42):
we here in China should be celebrating a victory. We're
now the largest manufacturer of cars of any country in
the world. We buy more cars than any other country
in the world, but it feels like an empty victory.
I'm frustrated. And the audience thought, what frustrated? What about?
And he said, look at the streets of Shanghai, Beijing,
(06:03):
and Blank Joe. They're all foreign cars. We've got Buicks
and Chevyes and Hyundai's and Toyotas and Mercedes. But where
are the Chinese cars? Number One? Then he went on
to say that's not all. We got another big problem.
We've now become the largest importer of oil in the world.
We're dependent on Mid East oil and we could get
into quagner as similar to what the US experiences. In
(06:27):
addition to that, look at our skies with these gasoline
powered vehicles. We have this orange brown colored sky's terrible pollution.
So what are we going to do about it? And
at that time he proposed an idea that seemed outlandish,
and that was we'll be the leader in electric vehicles.
We can do this, and they the audience. There were
(06:50):
hardly any car companies there. There are mostly political types
or academics, and everyone in the audience sort of said, well,
that's a crazy idea that will probably never happen, but
he put it out there as early as two thousand
and nine.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
At the same time, though, there was another one more
important one actually, the founder of China's leading EV company
byd Wang chang Fu, who was doing business back in
the nineties making batteries for Motorola. He kept making smart decisions,
including hiring wolfgung Egger, a big deal Audi designer, and
(07:30):
because one knew how to make batteries but was not
so good at car design, the Udi guy was really important.
I want to know if you met Wang Chau Fu,
what's made him so successful? And I think one of
the richest guys in China.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
That's right, he is one of the richest guys in China. Engineer,
low key, smart, laser focused. Then two thousand and three,
I remember I was in Beijing, came into the office
and everyone's a buzz. Oh Wang Chuanfu, the battery maker.
The chairman has decided to acquire a bankrupt automaker in
Chian called Chin Swan Motors. What he's going into the
(08:09):
car business. Days earlier, he had had a board meeting
and he proposed this idea. I'm going to take us
into the car business, and all the other board members said,
bad idea. It's capital intensive, there's lots of competition, will
never make it. He said, I don't care. We're going.
So he then acquired this company, and he wasn't even
(08:30):
ready to put batteries into the car. He actually licensed
engines from Mitsubishi to power his first cars. These are
gasoline powered engines. But he got his big break in
two thousand and eight September when Berkshire and Warren Buffett
got together and said, this guy's actually a genius. He
has a vision and he's going to build electric cars
(08:51):
that will be great. Let's invest in him now. They
put two hundred and fifty million dollars into the company
for about ten percent share, and that got Rebuddy's attention.
If Warren Buffett believes in this guy, he must know
what he's doing.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So are you saying basically that Buffett is like a
co founder of the Chinese ev success.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
No Warren Buffett, no Berkshire. Maybe this company doesn't ever
really gather traction. That was the feeling on the ground
in China as I lived it. Byd was an outsider,
long shot. The cars that put together nobody really wanted.
Chinese consumers said, why would I buy a BYD when
I could buy much better products from the foreign automakers.
(09:36):
That was a sentiment until Buffett invested. And then suddenly
the tenor changed. Oh, this company's legit, and.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
What's the backstory of why Buffett invested.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Buffett will be the first person to tell you he
didn't understand the business so much, but he said, I'm
convinced that this guy's a genius and he's going to
make good things happen. And the actual investment was made
on the business case, not for cars, but for energy storage. Yes,
Bidea has been doing batteries forever, since the mid nineties.
(10:09):
They've gotten very good at it. They will be able
to supply those batteries to energy service storage companies. And
that's the business model Buffet invested in, not in cars.
That would only come later that cars started to take off.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
But while we're on batteries, which are an essential component
obviously of evs, I'm told there as important or maybe
more important for an EV as a combustion engine is
for a regular car. The essential component for batteries is nickel.
And you and I have both lived in Indonesia. You
(10:45):
were head of GM in Indonesia. I was a foreign
correspondent there for a number of years, and nickel is
one of Indonesia's biggest raw materials, and the Chinese started
to invest heavily in Indonesia huge nickel minds. What's curious
to me is how was China president enough to invest
there early in the nickel and the US was nowhere
(11:09):
to be seen.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
This is at a time, Jane, when electric car sales
globally were minuscule. So China made a big bet starting
in twenty fourteen in this thing we all know now
called Made in China twenty twenty five, where they made
a blueprint and said, we China want to lead in
next generation technologies that includes AI, autonomous vehicles, electric vehicles,
(11:34):
and batteries. How do we do that? We start today
in twenty fourteen, investing billions of dollars into mines worldwide,
into processing of the critical minerals from those minds, into
manufacturing our own batteries here at home, when the rest
of the world was still on the fence. Do we
want to go electric? We're quite happy with our gasoline
(11:55):
powered vehicles. What's the urgency. Why go electric?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I mean, what was the discussion like at GM in
twenty fourteen when China came out with this plan.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
The idea was, wow, that is ambitious. But you know,
having lived in China since the nineties, nineteen nineties, my
first year living there, China would come up with these
audacious plans and then revise them or set them aside.
So when we heard of China wanting to be the
global leader in electric vehicles, there's a little bit of
(12:27):
a shrug. Like well, from nineteen eighty five until now,
it's been the global automakers that dominate this market. Chinese
consumers prefer global brands. Why wouldn't a Chinese electric car
maker be able to be successful? A lot of doubt,
a lot of skepticism. Not sure this is a slam
dunk at all.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned this program
made in China twenty twenty five. I can remember when
it came out, and you know, honestly I didn't know
what to make of it. I mean, business was not
really my VALI wick when I was covering China, until
one day the German ambassador called up and said, hey, Jane,
why didn't you come over there some things, some interesting
(13:10):
things to explain about made in China twenty twenty five.
And I then got on the program and I understood,
But it's baffling to me that the US auto companies
just let this go by.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It is baffling in retrospect. At the time, keep in
mind that US automakers and the Germans and the Japanese
were making money handover fists selling their own products into
their China market, and Chinese consumers couldn't buy them fast enough.
Just love those brands, especially the premium brands from Germany,
(13:45):
the Mercedes and BMW, Noadi's, And after twenty five years
of this, it was almost impossible for people on the
ground to imagine that suddenly Chinese consumers would shift to
electrics and to Chinese brands, the kind of future that
we're now experiencing today.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So let's come to today. You know, the big gripe
in Washington is the subsidies, endless gripes about free land,
text breaks, endless things that the Chinese government is supposed
to be giving away to the Chinese ev makers. When
(14:22):
did those subsidies start and what are the most important
subodies that Chinese carmakers get that, American ones don't. It's
a long list, but what are the most crucial Jane.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
When it comes to subsidies, the Chinese government at the
central level, at the local level, the provincial level get
very creative. How can we help these companies be successful?
There's low interest loans is their favorite tool. They also
give land for free. When you need energy to power
your factories, oh, we can discount that as well. You
(14:54):
need your employees trained, yes, Oh, you need employees who
don't command as higher wage. We can bring them from
a different provins. You're exporting yet, we can get you
money back on the exports. You're manufacturing, your suppliers need help,
we can be there for you. So when you add
it all up, the Chinese are able to manufacture cars
at twenty five percent to thirty percent lower cost than
(15:17):
we are in the West, and that's really hard for
non Chinese countries to compete with right now.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
So these subsidies are really critical in getting Chinese evs
on the roads, both in China and outside China.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Definitely, subsidies were crucial to the takeoff of electric vehicles
inside China.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So talking about Tesla, now half of all Tesla's are
made in China. What impact is Tesla's manufacturing in Shanghai
had on the Chinese EV companies, in particular BYD the leader.
Has it been much transfer of personnel and expertise from
Tesla to BYD? How has that worked?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
So? Did start manufacturing in the first quarter of twenty
twenty their Model three in a brand new, beautiful factory
just outside of Shanghai that cost a couple of billion
dollars to build and was done so in ten months time,
record time. Usually a factory like that would take a
(16:19):
couple of years here in the States.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Do you have any idea how big the workforce was.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I don't know. The number would have been several thousand
people that Elon announced We're going to make one hundred
thousand cars in our first year, which was really unbelievable
at the time. You're going to go from zero to
one hundred thousand in a market for electrics. It's still
not proven, let's see. So they got underway right into
COVID as soon as they started production, factories had its
(16:46):
closed and Elon got in there and said, we're not closing,
We're staying open. Tesla was the last plant to be
closed and the first one to reopen.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So how long were they closed for?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
For about five weeks in all that all, and so
they were able to reopen quickly. And when they reopened
workers came back. I later talked to some of them
and they said they couldn't believe the orders were through
the roof. People were crazy to get their hands on
this thing called the Model three. Now, keep in mind,
up until then, demand for electric cars and Chinese electric
(17:19):
cars was still lukewarm. People weren't that enthusiastic about it.
It didn't have appeal. Electric cars were slow, or unreliable,
or short of range, and what about the charging, lots
of doubts. After TESL stepped into the market, there's a
transformation in the way electrics were perceived, and suddenly they
became the new cool. And as a result, Chinese automakers
(17:43):
like BYD, Neo, Xpunk and others that were really struggling
at the time. One of them named Neo, was about
to go bankrupt at that same time and needed a
billion dollar lifeline from the province of Anhui to stay alive.
There's this knock on effect. Tuessels became super popular, not
only did they sell one hundred thousand cars? They sold
one hundred and thirty five thousand cars in the first year,
(18:05):
blowing away everyone's expectations. There's like a halo effect that
extended to electric cars, and Chinese electric cars in particular.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So I suppose as nationalism increased, or the feeling of
pride in China increased in twenty twenty onwards, the idea
of Chinese evs came on. Was that the effect.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
That's absolutely what happened. You know, there's almost like a
before twenty twenty and after twenty twenty, before Tesla and
after Tesla. Tesla was a proof of concept that electrics
could be exciting, like a school of fish in the
ocean suddenly pivoting in a different direction. We saw Chinese
(18:47):
consumers who up until then said I don't want a
Chinese car, and I definitely don't want an electric car,
flip and say I want nothing more than an electric
car that's got IT brand on it.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
And how much transfer was there from Tesla to BYD
and Neo and the other Chinese evs, Or were the
Chinese EV car makers already up to speed and they
didn't need anything from Tesla that's the.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Great black box. Tesla did bring in its own suppliers,
and China definitely made it part of the deal. You
can own one hundred percent of your operation here at Tesla,
provided that you bring your suppliers to China too. So
they moved in, and for those of us who have
lived in China, we understand when it comes to intellectual property,
(19:39):
there's very little to stop that from leaking. So once
that suppliers on the ground in China, then through the
side door, through the back door, that intellectual property and
know how it's going to leak sideways to other Chinese automakers.
So that's part of the story, but it's not all
of it. Jane. Also going on is that for years
(20:01):
global automakers had been bringing their own suppliers into the market.
So when a BYD needed seats or wheels or a
motor or electronics, they had the washes and the Denzos
and the Lears and the magnus already in China in
their backyard, world class suppliers that they can now draw
from two So it was sort of built in China.
(20:24):
They didn't have to develop their own industry in a way.
They already had the global industry camped inside China. So
one thing is BYD did hire Wolfgang Eigers several years
before from Audi. He's a world class designer. He built
a team of six hundred people to say, let's create
(20:45):
world class looking vehicles. And so the look and appearance
of BID vehicles have went from the outhouse to the
penthouse in just a few years, much better looking. And
that's important in China, where images everything. Why am I
buying this car for the performance? No, to tell my
friends that I've arrived. I got a great look in
new vehicle. So part of it was they invested a
(21:08):
lot in design. The second part was they doubled down
on their investments in making world class batteries, of course,
which are the engines of the evs. And this is
where the story gets a little bit juicy. Apple at
the same time was working in a top secret project
(21:29):
called Titan since twenty sixteen to design, engineer, and develop
a world class electric and autonomous vehicle that would compete
with Tesla and be better than Tesla. Along the way,
Apple began doing close cooperation with BYD on batteries, in particular,
how do we design the world's most efficient battery and
(21:54):
lo and Behold twenty twenty one byd announces We've got
this fantastic new battery called the Blade. It's more reliable,
it's safer, it's more efficient than anything we've seen before
the industry. And they're right, the Blade battery is a
phenomenal product. What's unclear is to the extent to which
(22:17):
that battery may have been may have been designed and
engineered with the help of Apple geniuses working on this
Titan pro.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It seems pretty clear it was. It was probably designed
in Cupatino.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Right, Apple's tagline is designed in California, manufactured in China
or assembled in China.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
And if we can just insert a little parenthetical here,
Apple announced recently that they were not going to go
ahead with their autonomous vehicles.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I talked to some partners at Sequoia Capital, a very
powerful and influential outfit in Silicon Valley, and at a
certain point around the same time, I said, why is
Apple hesitating? Why aren't they moving forward with this project Titan?
And they said, and these are very well connected people
(23:08):
who know both Apple and Tesla's leaders, and they said,
Apple looks at Tesla and says, not sure we can
do it better than they're doing it. So you got
a couple of different things going on. One, they're trailing
the mass market manufacturer that's BYD of electric vehicles. And secondly,
they felt as though Tesla has a very big lead
(23:31):
when it comes to the software side of the business.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Too, and they felt that they'd be the third competitor
and that they're not used to being They.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Don't like to be number three. We're number one, Jane,
we do Apple 're Apple.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
So this raises the specter of what's going to happen
to Detroit. I mean, let's just look over what Bill Fowley,
the CEO of Ford said about China's EVS. Fali went
to China a couple of times, and he was quoted
as saying to a member of the Ford board, this
(24:04):
is an existential threat. I mean, finally, the penny seems
to have dropped that Chinese expertise and manufacturing cloud and
evs is really this existential threat. What can Ford in
particular and the rest of Detroit do about this China's
ev power or do they not want to do anything
about it? They think that Americans are just going to
(24:25):
continue to drive guest guzzling cars.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
There is a new sheriff in town. Its name is
China and Ford CEO Jim Farley is just waking up
to that reality, and he's called it out and said,
if we don't get our act together, we could be
eviscerated in the coming years. I mean, just to put
a little bit of this in perspective, Jane, China today
has capacity to supply half of the world's demand for cars.
(24:53):
So in a market of ninety million, they have forty
five million units of capacity. They already build more electric
vehicle than all other countries combined. And oh, by the way,
they're also now suddenly the world's number one exporter, surpassing
Japan and Germany. In fact, if you go to Thaighland,
South Africa, Israel, Chile, Australia, you're going to see a
(25:17):
lot of Chinese cars. It's only here on the island
of North America that we look out the window and
we see what's the big deal? What's this thing about
existential threat? There's no Chinese cars on the road here,
but we're in a walled garden. Farley recognizes that more
and more people in America need to wake up to that.
What do we do about that, and the key is
(25:38):
look at the success of Tesla and understand that it's
a software defined vehicle. It's software that's the future differentiator
of cars. It's not the hardware, the pounding together of
manufactured parts. It's the brains the vehicle that's going to
differentiate the winners and losers. We need more skunk works
(26:00):
startups with brilliant, innovative, risk taking founders. That's the way
we're going to compete. And so Ford, GM and Stalantis
to survive, cannot hope to do the same thing they've
done for the last one hundred years. They have to
create side companies that are risk taking, innovative, and creative.
(26:24):
A betting person looking at this situation would be saying extinction.
Likelihood of extinction very.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
High in what period of time do you think, Michael?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Sometimes I think is China a canary in the coal mine.
So if we look at GM, Ford Stalanta's experience in China,
there's an arc. They did exceptionally well for many years,
but today they're doing very poorly. Stalantis's joint venture went bankrupt.
Ford's lost billions of dollars in the last few years
(26:57):
in China. If they can compete in China, and they're
not competing elsewhere in the world. Now we're just back
hunkering down at home and holding out like who are
at the Alamo. It could be that within the next
five to seven years they're in serious trouble.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Well, and they're hunkering at home making gasoline cars correct.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Correct, Detroit's building full size SUVs and trucks, paying out
bonuses because financially, yeah, we're doing great, but it's not real.
It's not global. Chairman Maoyol, appreciate this with your years
in China. When China had a civil war nineteen forty
five to forty nine, his strategy was simple. He said,
(27:39):
we're going to take the countryside and surround the cities.
Mao went with his forces and surrounded the cities by
taking the countryside. What's going on in the world today.
Chinese automakers are taking every other market in the world
and surrounding today basically the United States and Europe.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You know, we haven't talked about tariff's yet, so I
guess we have to tackle this subject and maybe we'll
do it this way. Do you think China will build
ev factories in Mexico and be successful in bringing them
into the US.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
What we know for sure today, Jane, is that the
number one supplier of cars to the Mexican market is China.
They're just pouring in there. As in Mexico City a
few weeks ago, I couldn't believe. Everywhere there's billboards and
new products coming into the market. So they're exporting in
big numbers to Mexico, that's for sure. Until Mexico perhaps
(28:35):
follows the US lead and puts in place some tariffs,
that's when we'll see whether or not the Chinese are
prepared to invest into Mexico to service the Mexican market.
Look for the Chinese to do exactly that. They will
build plants in Mexico, ostensibly in phase one to supply
the Mexican market, but let's not be naive. The real
(28:59):
purpose of those plants will be to manufacture for export
up into the North American market. That's the reality.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
But you know, we've been concentrating on BYD. You know,
I love the name. It's designed to.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Say, build your dreams.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Build your dreams. But you know, we've been talking so
much about the upside, the upside, the upside of EVS
and BYD. But I noticed that Warren Buffett is selling
down his shares in BYD. What's going on?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
It wasn't that long ago that someone asked Warren Buffett
why he invested in TSMC, the master chip maker in Taiwan,
and then divest it. It just happened within one quarter,
and his answer was telling. He said, I don't like
the geography. It's meaning too much risk, given what China
(29:48):
might like to do with Taiwan. I think by extension.
He looks at BYD and BYD's aggressive growth globally and says,
you know what, I think, I want to tone down
my ownership in that company. I've made great profits, had
a phenomenal run. Let me just wind it back.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
A little interesting. I don't quite see that. I understand
devesting in TSMC. I don't quite understand why he'd want
to phase out of BYD. He thinks they've reached their peak.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Maybe it's intensive competition at home among the Chinese price
wars and over capacity and margins are being driven down
to wood chip finn So he might look at that
and say BYD had an edge, but it's going to
be it's going to evaporate, it's going to vanish as
(30:38):
shall me an ex punk and neo and all these
other players come to put pressure on byd.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
So I'm just dying to hear about this. You've got
an upcoming book called Electric Car Wars. If you were
a betting man, but you're also the writing man, who
are you placing your bed on Us or China?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
And why a betting man would say China has this
hands down. They have a ten year lead in their
ability to make electrics, They own the battery supply chains,
they have control of many of the minds. The US
is like a long shot. Wow. However, as many people
(31:21):
before me have said, I don't want to bet against America,
an American ingenuity and innovation. Provided that Americans wake up
to this like they woke up to the spot Nick
so many years ago, we can definitely compete and prevail.
But today we're the underdog. That's the big story here, Jane.
(31:42):
You know, for the last hundred years it's been America leading.
What if we're not in charge? What if we're not
in the lead, how do we then catch up? How
do we innovate? So as a writer, well, you have
to get the book. Then you find out.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Michael Dunn, thank you very much, and I think there
will be many buyers of the book Electric Car Wars.
Thank you so much. Great to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Thank you. Jane.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Michael Dunn is the CEO of Dunn Insights. He has
a book coming on the US China EV Wars. Watch
for it up next. I'm joined by my friend and
China historian Rana Mitter. We're back. I'm here with my friend,
(32:39):
China historian Rana Mitter. Rana, good to have you here
to talk about cars, though neither of us are really
what shall we say, big drivers on the open road.
Do you even own a car?
Speaker 4 (32:52):
I'm sorry to say I don't. I take advantage of
the fact that the city that I know, I love here,
Boston and Cambridge, is one of the very few metropolis
in the US which has actually pretty good public transport.
So no EV for you at the moment, I don't
think so, although I have to say that that may
not be a choice that's being made elsewhere. A lot
of people I know are feeling very tempted by these
(33:12):
amazing models and the amazing colors that they come in.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
What do you think, Rana, Because of Trump's favorite word, tariffs,
they are basically very few Chinese EV's in the United States,
although Biden actually snammed one hundred percent tariffs on Chinese EV's,
and of course under Trump it looks like they're going
to stay. But if Chinese EV's were allowed in the US,
(33:35):
would American drivers go for them?
Speaker 4 (33:38):
I think that maybe one of the best parallels, Jane
is TikTok, because if you said in the abstract, would
you know, millions of American consumers, including the young, go
for an app which have been designed in an authoritarian state,
in a company that essentially had to do the bidding
of the Chinese Communist Party, You'd say no, No, freedom
(33:58):
loving Americans, absolutely no where that they want to take
this up. And yet I hope I'm not spoiling surprise
for you here, Jane, TikTok turns out to be quite
popular in the US, no kidding. I think when it
comes to vehicles, it's clearly a combination of you know, price,
efficiency and actually style, you know, the issue of whether
or not you want to be seen driving one of
these things. You'll remember, way back in the nineteen fifty
(34:21):
sixties during the Cold War, one of the things that
got in the way of Japanese cars coming into the
US was that they just didn't look very good. They
looked pretty clunky, and then they started to get very
very swish. I think that the Chinese have, as so
often as the case leaped to stage and technology. They're
producing some pretty fine looking cars and security issues aside.
If you look at Europe, if you look at many
(34:42):
parts of the growing economies of Asia, that's where those
evs are really taking off. Will American consumers push back, Well,
that's really what the Trump play is all about.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
I guess we'll have to wait and see. But there
is an interesting aspect about EV's which could perhaps hurt
us here in the United States. You know, when I
finished talking to Michael, I talked to him off Mike
he thought Beijing would squeeze Elon Musk and his Tesla
plant in Shanghai as a way to get concessions from Trump,
(35:15):
and Musk does seem a pretty easy target for China.
How do you think the Chinese government could go after
Musk's Tesla operation in Shanghai. We're going to take a
slightly different view on what might happen with the Elon
Musk situation, partly because I think one of the things
we've learned over the last few weeks and months is
that nothing is predictable. You know, things will often go
in some very unexpected directions. But think about this for
(35:36):
a moment.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
If you're Beijing and you feel that you want leverage
on the United States, then essentially you need a group
of people who are willing to actually make a kind
of fairly frank and solid case in their own country
that dealing with China is a good idea. I suspect
a lot of powerful people in China probably think, rightly
or wrongly, that Elon Musk may be one of those people.
(36:00):
Smart guy, even if he's being squeezed subtly, he'll know
he's being squeezed. And I think the likelihood that any
powerful figure is going to want to speak up openly
for China if they feel that actually they're being blackmailed
into it is very limited. So I think that actually
when it comes to Elon Musk, regardless of what happens,
Beijing will probably leave them alone in that sense, because
(36:20):
the value of someone who can actually speak to powerful
people in Washington is greater if it's not coerced. The difference,
of course, comes if the relationship between Musk and Trump
does not continue to be warm, and that might lead
to a different sort of outcome.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
You know something that's just come to mind, Rana. If
there's head to head battle with a Tesla versus byd
or on other Chinese EV models in Europe or Latin America,
which do you think would win? Which do you think
has the biggest appeal for consumers.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
I think that a lot of that will come down
to whether or not the domestic markets in those countries
can produce products that can compete. So you mentioned Europe,
Let's think about the fact that in large parts of
Central Europe, in France and Germany, to some extent in Italy,
you have auto manufacturers who are desperately looking to shift
(37:12):
to evs.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Now.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
Unlike the United States, those big players, the VW's Mercedes
Is are getting very much into a relationship with Chinese technology.
There are tariffs in Europe, we know this as there
are in the US, but they're for a different purpose.
When it comes to tariffs on EV's in the US,
they're basically about keeping evs from China out. In Europe,
(37:34):
it's very much about saying, okay, we want to orient
the investment into a way that helps to make sure
that domestic production of evs in Europe is more effective
and efficient. And so I think the answer to your
question is that in a generation or so, if things
go as the Europeans want, then people will be driving
VW as Mercedes is that actually have those labels and
(37:55):
the style that comes from those particular manufacturers. But a
lot of what will be under the bonnet actually is
going to have made in China written on it, including
the all important battery, especially the all important battery. I mean,
one of the things that clearly Europe, India, whole ride
of other players want to do is to develop more
indigenous battery production capacity. They will get there, is my guess,
(38:17):
but they're not going to get there next year or
even perhaps in three to five years time. It will
take longer than that. And in that intervening period when
people aren't going to be waiting around for cars, China
is going to be in a powerful position in terms
of having a really important lock on large parts of
the battery industry.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
It's incredible to me that America and Europe have allowed
China to get so far ahead on battery technology. I mean,
one of the things that clearly has to be if
excuse a motoring kind of pun, but about people being
asleep of the wheel. When we think about what that means,
it's about choices investment. China didn't get to be where
(38:53):
it is now on EVS simply through wishing for it.
It involved, of course, a lot of things, including taking
designs that were basically found elsewhere and taking them, often
without attribution, back into China. That that did happen.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
At the same time, China was also putting very very
significant amounts some money year by year, decade by decade
into scientific research and development, training a lot of students
who would do technology, maths and so forth, having huge
workforce that was more able to underpin that changing technological environment.
(39:26):
And it's only the last few years that whether it's
the field of cars or whether it's AI, they've been
reaping the benefits absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I mean, it's incredible the number of engineering students they
have at universities compared to the United States, for example, and.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
There's going to be more.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
One of the things that, for instance, is a plan
for the GBA, the Greater Bay Area, which are supposed
to integrate over time Hong Kong Macau, Shunjan and large
parts of southern China is that there's going to be
more investment there in technology universities and also I think
actually EV battery technology as well well, so the building
(40:01):
up of hubs. It's not quite Silicon Valley, but you
might want to say on a battery city something like
that or a series of battery cities in southern China
could be if not forever, at least for the twenty
thirties twenty forties a really important part of creating a
new industrial nexus that actually has the capacity to reflect
out into Southeast Asia, into these emerging markets in the
(40:25):
Global South, and as I've said, not in the US,
but actually more and more possibly into Europe.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
You know, I can't resist asking do you see this surge,
this domination in evs by China as being the death
knell of Detroit in the longer run, not tomorrow, not
next year, but in the future. I think one of
the things that you should never underestimate is the resilience
of the American economy. So, for instance, it was said
(40:51):
back in the nineteen seventies and eighties that the United
States and Detroit were essentially permanently doomed because of Japanese imports,
and actually Detroit General Motors Ford managed to get their
act together to create a new generation of vehicles that
actually once again put a lot of American vehicles on top.
If you think also about a firm like Ford, it
(41:12):
actually has a significant presence of it's own in China
as well, so it's expanded into THEIRS markets. So there's
nothing inevitable about it. What I think is going to
be problematic is if there is a decision that actually
the United States is simply not going to have any
kind of involvement in the emerging ev world at all,
because the course consumer demand in much of the rest
(41:33):
of the world is going to be in that direction.
Let's say the Trump administration is saying subsidies for evs
that's over or heavily reduced. But California, you know, a
state that has an economy the size of many large countries,
has already put a huge amount of investment which is
not going to rip out now in terms of creating
more and more of their infrastructure. Also, just across the
(41:54):
border in Mexico, more and more manufacturing plants that of
course have a lot of Chinese investments are going to
be producing EV's.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
Now. Of course, you can have a rule that basically says, well,
there's a massive tariffor on needs that they come across
the border. But in the end, over time, it seems
that if you're going to build that kind of capacity
and there is demand, then actually, in the end consumers
will change what they want you to do. Not forgetting
that the reason, the fundamental reason that all of this
(42:23):
change is happening is climate change. There is a global
crisis that whatever politicians may think, is not simply going
to go away.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
As always, thank you Rana, Thanks Jane, and thank you
for listening to face Off. If you want to read
more about EV's in China, I recommend Michael Dunn's new
book expected this year in the meantime for an excellent
inside look at how a Mask pulled off the Tesla
investment in Shanghai. Check out Powerplay, Tesla, Elon Musk, and
(42:56):
The Bet of the Century by Tim Higgins. I'll put
links to these book in our show notes next week
on the show Forget the Space Race. The biggest competition
between the US and China is over artificial intelligence.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Every once in a while comes a general purpose technology
that changes everything today. It's artificial intelligence. The US is
the world leader in AI, but they're looking over their
shoulder because China is catching up and aiming to be
number one by twenty thirty.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Who will be the AI superpower and what does this
mean for the world. This project is made possible by
the general support of the Carnegie Corporation. Face Off is
hosted and reported by me Jane Perlez, special guest run
(43:57):
A Mitter. Our production team is Mia Lobel, Nina Pozzuki,
and Frank Joe. Sound design and mixing by John Myers
and Alex Lewis of Rohan Productions. Original score by Alex Lewis.
Show art by Good Tape Studio. Special thanks to Maggie
Taylor and Paul Bogart's Special thanks also to the Belfer
(44:21):
Center at the Harvard Kennedy School for their support.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Boy, I really enjoyed talking to Jane. Why she's a
complete professional, someone who has seen the world and gets it.
Some serious deep wisdom and intuition at play there. Listen up.
If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did,
don't forget to share it with friends, And while you're
at it, be certain to encourage them to add Faceoff
(45:04):
US Versus China to their podcast favorites List two. I
am Michael Dunn and this is the Driving With Done podcast.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Where you meet the experts creating the technologies that will
power tomorrow's cars electric autonomous software. To find this is
the Driving with Done podcast. Thank you for joining this
episode of the Driving with Done podcast. To connect with
Michael Dunn, visit doneinsights dot com or find Michael on
(45:34):
x or LinkedIn This is the Driving With Done Podcast
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com