How do we begin to get our minds around the global blitz of tariffs unleashed by the Trump Administration. Is it madness or is there a method to the madness? One thing is certain: Donald Trump has definitely captured the attention of leaders in Asia, Europe, Mexico and Canada. They are trying to come to terms with arguably the greatest economic and trade shock in decades. Joining us today is Wendy, Cutler, one of the most skilled negotiators on the planet. She knows trade, she knows tariffs and she has more than 30 years of experience negotiating trade deals. I ask Wendy to talk us through the current state of trade and tariffs, what she thinks President Trump is trying to get done and how this great tariff blitz is likely to land. Let's just say she is not brimming with optimism. But she does have some advice for White House - if the phone rings.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
As a long time foreign correspondent, I've worked in lots
of places, but nowhere as important to the world as China.
I'm Jane Perlez, former Beijing bureau chief for The New
York Times. On Face Off, the US versus China will
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(00:26):
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We're top executives and crazy entrepreneurs gathered to talk about
the future of electric vehicles. This is the Driving with
Done podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hello and welcome to the Driving with Done podcast. I
am your host, Michael Dunn. So, ladies and gentlemen, how
do we begin to get our minds around the global
blitz of teriffs unleashed by the Trump administration. That's the question?
Is it madness or is there a method to the madness?
(01:05):
One thing certain, Donald Trump has definitely captured the attention
of leaders in Asia, Europe, Mexico, Canada and yes, let's
not forget Greenland. They're trying to come to terms with
arguably the greatest economic and trade shock in decades. So
are we? No one is not affected by this. Joining
us today is Wendy Cutler, one of the most skilled
(01:28):
negotiators on the planet. She knows trade, she knows Terris,
and she has more than thirty years of experience negotiating
trade deals. I ask Wendy to walk us through the
current state of trade and tariffs, what she thinks President
Trump is trying to get done, and how this great
tariff blitz is likely to land. Let's just say she's
(01:51):
not brimming with optimism, but she does have some advice
for the White House. When the phone rings, Wendy Cutler,
Vice President Asia Society Policy Institute, here on the Driving
with Done podcast. Hello Wendy, and welcome back to the
(02:16):
Driving with Done podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Well, thank you, it's my pleasure to be back. Lots
to talk about, so much.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
To talk about, but we know nothing's more important, of
course than cars, so I need to know to get
us started today. What was your very first car?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Well, the first car I drove regularly was my mother's car,
which is a red Dodge Dart, and I remember that
very well because it was the first car I'd ever
been in with an FM radio and that was so cool.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
A Red Dart FM radio. Did it have. Was it
manual or automatic? Transmission?
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Automatic?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Automatic? Oh yeah, okay, you're cruisings? Where was Where was
home at that time?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
In New York, New York, New York City in the suburb?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Okay? Yeah, all right, so we got a picture what
you drove your first car. Now let's take a big
sharp left turn and talk about tariffs. And arguably there's
nobody better in America talk about tariffs and trade than you.
So I'm so happy you're here with us. Tell me,
in your view, what's the overall objective of this American
(03:22):
tear of blitz.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Well, it's a very simple question, but there's not a
simple answer because the President has laid out different objectives
at different points of time. And what's so confusing is
that some of these objectives run across purposes. So, for example,
(03:44):
while he will say at times, oh, this is just
for negotiating leverage, which suggests you put the tariffs on
and you lift them the day later, he could say, no, no,
they're really for revenue purposes, and that suggests you want
to keep them on. And so again, lots of different purposes.
Bring down the deficit, incentivize more investment in the US,
(04:07):
raise revenue, get rid of unfair trade practices, negotiating leverage.
And that's five objectives. Again, some are consistent, some are not.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
You're sitting across from President Trump in a negotiation with
all this noise happening, given your experience, what's your read?
What do you think? And we don't know and maybe
there's no real answer, But what do you think? What
you guess he's really after here? What's a win for him?
Speaker 3 (04:33):
So my sense is that where we're going to end
up at the end of this ninety day period in
the most optimistic scenario, would be a handful of these
so called framework agreements with countries that would allow for
the lifting of the reciprocal tariffs down to ten percentage points.
(04:55):
But from everything I'm hearing and reading, and given that
they want to have a revenue to I think he's
thinking about keeping a ten percent universal tariff on for everyone.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And you're in contact with people all over the planet.
What are you hearing these days? What's the overall reaction
to what they're seeing coming out of the United States.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Well, I think our foreign trading partners number one are
confused and lack clarity, and I assure them they're not alone,
but I think they're beginning to figure out that time
is on their side, that the administration now is coming
under increasing pressure to show that deals can be done.
(05:37):
And I'm also hearing that as the reality sinks in
that they're increasingly concerned that even if they reach a
deal with the Trump administration on trade that would allow
for the partial lifting of these reciprocal tariffs, would this
deal stick or are they going to be hit four
months from now with further tariffs. And this becomes extremely
(05:59):
real in that there are six ongoing investigations under Section
two thirty two our National Security Trade Statute, which all
could lead to higher tariffs which technically would not be
covered under a reciprocal tariff agreement unless that country succeeded
in getting the US to agree that should it, for example,
(06:21):
impost tariffs in the future on pharmaceuticals, that that would
not apply to country X.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So to some extent, it feels like if we're on
the opposite side from the United States, there's no end
of possibilities with regards to well, oh, by the way,
we're going to introduce a new tariff because X, Y,
and Z. That's what they're feeling.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I think they're feeling that this feeling of uncertainty is
going to continue for the next three and a half years.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
On the tariff front, three and a half hears suddenly
sounds like a very long time USMCA, I believe is
up for renewal in the not too distant future.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
What's your take there? Do you see it being extended
or do you think we're looking at a completely clean sheet,
new approach. Let's rethink the entire deal.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
So you're right, the us MCA, under its provisions is
subject for a formal review July twenty twenty six. In reality,
this review is going to start early, and just you know,
this week as we're recording, the new Canadian President Carney
is coming to meet with President Trump. So I suspect
(07:35):
that you know these talks are going to get going.
My view is this, these negotiations will focus on improvements
and amendments to the us MCA, and not like a
total rewrite. They'll keep a lot in place. However, in
certain key areas, particularly rules of origin and how Chinese
(07:57):
imports and exports and investment are treat Those are two
areas that are going to undergo a lot of negotiation
along with outstanding bilateral dispute, bilateral disputes including for example,
Canadian dairy or Mexican energy areas where we have not
(08:17):
been able to resolve our differences through the enforcement mechanisms
in the current USMCA.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
When you talk about the Chinese, to mention, what's the
number one concern from the United States with regards to
its partners and their relationships with China, the.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Number one concern is Chinese companies that are moving their
production or moving part of their operations to Mexico in particular,
and using that as a platform to export to the US,
either to receives USMCA benefits or even just to pay
(08:54):
the MFN tariff, which is much less than the current
tariffs visa China. And a concern that these Chinese companies
in moving to Mexico or Southeast Asia wherever, are really
doing this to avoid the tariffs without contributing a lot
of value added to the production in that third country.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
So a clever workaround by the Chinese. Don't want that backdoor.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Coming using using other countries as kind of a transshipment hub.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Washing. I think the headliners always washing washing.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Now, Yeah, that's that's the cool way to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Oh wait, that's the that's the word of the week.
Just came back from Mexico City. In fact, last week
confirmed Chinese cars are pouring in there. Unbelievable. They now
account made in China cars now account for one third
of new car sales in Mexico, up from nothing five
years ago.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
But that includes that's not all electric vehicles, right, that
includes ices as well.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Right, ices? And another twist, it also includes GM and
Ford products by their partners in China and then ship
back across the ocean to Mexico. So it gets complicated.
If you shut that down, GM and Ford also get hit,
which okay, so, but the main point takeaway you're sharing
with us is try to stop that washing by China
(10:18):
through in particular through our close neighbors Canada and Mexico.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Let's turn for a moment to Europe. When on the
phone with European friends of mine in the last couple
of weeks, they seem quite emotional saying it's over, We're
done with you guys. But I can't quite bring my
mind to believe that yet, So I wanted to ask you,
do you see a major reconciliation with Europe where we
get to zero tariffs or are things really tough and
(10:45):
we're in a new era.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I think it's the ladder. I think things are just
going to get tougher. And I'm not optimistic about reaching
a deal with the EU within this ninety day period
to allow them to roll back the recipro tariffs. I
think there's a lot of friction there the administration. You know,
no love lost for Europe. You know, in the background
(11:09):
you have the Russia Ukraine War, which is on everyone's
mind and impacting our relations with the EU. And frankly,
the EU is tough well, is tough to negotiate with
as well. I mean, they have to come to the
negotiating table coordinating positions of twenty seven countries that have
very different views on how to approach these issues and
(11:30):
how to deal with China. And as a result, you know,
Brussels doesn't have a lot of negotiating flexibility. So the
combination of of all of these factors leads me to
be pretty negative on a successful outcome here. But you know,
I don't want to be a pessimist here because at
(11:50):
the end of the day, you know, we're close allies
with Europe. We have a lot in common, a lot
of shared interest. Europe, to its credit is has come
to the US with some proposals of offers, including both
sides eliminating their tariffs on industrial goods, which the US
has rejected. But I think, you know, they are trying.
(12:13):
But again I think they have a lot less scope
and a lot less incentive as a big training block
to make huge concessions to the United States.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Why I'm curious, why did the United States reject that
counterproposal from Europe on industrial goods.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I don't think we want to go to zero on
all these products, number one. But also they you know,
Europe is conveniently not included agriculture, which is a sector
of great export interest to the US than where the
EU has a lot of protection.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Okay, you meant I think you nailed such an important point.
Maybe we don't always want to go to zero. So
for example, Vietnam recently hinted that Taiwan overnight, maybe we're
going to go to zero wrote tariffs on US imports.
Having lived in Asia, as long as I don't see
a lot of Vietnamese demanding American products, so they go
to zero in exchange for US going to zero. I'm
(13:11):
not sure there's a net benefit to the United States.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
That's one point, right, So what do we do now?
You're right, Yeah, you're right. And the other point is
that we don't want we don't want if countries are
if we're going to reach a tariff deal where we
lower tariff, where countries lower tariffs right now, we only
want them to do that for the United States. We
don't want them to do this on an MFN basis,
(13:34):
meaning it would apply to everyone, because that would not
benefit us. And that's a real change in US trade policy.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Okay, big change. Let's go way across the world, across
the Pacific. Japan Korea are stalwart allies for so long,
they of course enjoyed immense benefits from access to the
US market. If you're going to compare you know, our
relationship with Japan Korea with our relationship with Europe. Do
you how do you feel about how that will go forward?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
I think prospects are solid for reaching some kind of
framework with Korea and Japan during the ninety day period.
Why because we're close allies, and I also think the
President is going to remind these countries that we have
a lot of troops in those countries, and we pay
a lot of money for their defense, and so as
security allies, I think they're under pressure to reach a
(14:27):
deal with the United States. Now that's said, I don't
think it's going to be easy or simple with either
Korea or Japan. They both have elections coming up. Korea's
presidential election is early June, and Japan is facing an
upper house election in the Diet in July, and these
(14:48):
issues are on voters' mines and so for both countries,
I don't see them rushing to do a deal that
is that where they won't get anything. The deals going
to have to be win win for them. And what
I'm also hearing is that there's a growing concern that
while the US is saying it's willing to negotiate reciprocal tariffs,
(15:12):
it is not willing to lower the twenty five percent
tariff on autos or Japan and Korea or other countries
that has been implemented under Section two thirty two of
our trade law. And without that commitment, all of a sudden,
these deals for Japan and Korea become a lot less interesting.
So I'm not ruling it out, but I think that
(15:35):
negotiations with both countries has gotten a lot more complicated
in the past week or two, when it's become increasingly apparent,
and it could just be a negotiating position. I'm not sure,
but the US is not prepared to lower its automotive tariffs.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Up until now, we've been talking about our allies, Wendy.
Some days I wake up, I think maybe this whole
tariff blitz is part of a bigger confrontation between the
United States and China. So what kind of deal There's
been hints of a deal with China. What would a
deal look like?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
And you know, that's a great question. First of all,
I don't think at this moment now we can predict
that the two sides are going to get back to
the negotiating table in the immediate future. My view is China,
like other partners even more, really believes that time is
on its side and that they've seen President Trump pull
(16:30):
back from a number of aspects of the tariff policy already,
and so they recognize and that he's under increasing pressure
to produce deals and to show he can manage this
whole tariff situation. So I don't think China is in
any rush to get back to the table with US.
But I you know, look, they are hurting too their
(16:52):
economies week and it's a very export driven economy, and
when you lose access to your biggest export market, it
is a problem. So I don't want to discount those problems,
but I also think that they have a much higher
threshold for pain than we do. That said, at some
point we'll get back to the negotiating table, and you know,
(17:12):
certain people, and I heard Secretary bess And say this
last week, our Treasury Secretary that he would that he
would look to a big deal with China where we
could address the structural imbalances. My view is that is
a really huge assignment to take on and you can
(17:34):
end up never concluding that negotiation.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So I would have it You've had these structural imbalances
for decades now, and right is feeling more confident than
ever before that they're that their formula.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Is working right and through a trade deal, they're not
going to say all of a sudden, oh we're you know,
we're gonna get rid of state on enterprises and we're
going to release all our subsidies. Now. When they when
they to the WTO, they were in a different place,
and they did agree to some of that stuff. Obviously
we should have asked for a lot more in retrospect,
(18:09):
but I don't see them doing that. And frankly, there's
no trust between the two sides. And so based on
my experience as a trade negotiator, I would suggest you
start small. You make some incremental gains with a smaller
trade deal which would allow some relaxation of current tariffs,
and then you kind of build that trust and then
(18:31):
you know, move to you know, a deal that would
have more expansive and deeper commitments. But I think if
you bite off more than you can chew in the beginning,
you could end up in a situation where the negotiations
break down and then we're back into our president saying,
you know what, with no talks going on, China didn't
(18:51):
treat us right, We're going to impose more tariffs.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
More terroriffts, doubling down.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Doubling, tripling down.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Do you feel as though no one can get into
mind his mind? Of course impossible, But do you feel
as though Donald Trump, based on his first presidency, has
come to the conclusion that no deal, real deal is
even conceivable with China? We're just sort of locked in
a actually.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Quite the opposite, based on you know what I've heard
him say. I think he's very intrigued with this notion
that he could do that deal with China that no
one else could do.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Ah, and so I like the Middle East exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and Ukraine Russia as well. So
I think that that's kind of going on his mind,
and he's a bit frustrated because he would like to
personally negotiate the steal. And I'm sure as advisors are
telling him, you're not going to be getting a call
from Shieshunping anytime soon, because the Chinese would insist on
(19:56):
any on scripting any call and making sure that their
leader would not be embarrassed, humiliated, or surprised.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I'm curious what does that look like since you've been
there and witnessed it. So do the teams agree on
what's going to be said on that call?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, and it's not just with China. Years I worked
for the government, and we you know, I would work
with my counterparts to you know, come up with the
substance for the call, and the idea being that the
leaders got on the call, you know, they'd have their discussion.
Of course, you couldn't script everything they were going to say,
but you knew what the outcome would be, and then
(20:37):
both sides could announce it and announce they had a
positive call they agreed on X, Y and Z. I
think if she and Trumper to have a call after
AIDS worked on you know, the contents, we'd be looking
at a call maybe that would like launch negotiations or
launch you know, negotiations on the scope of negotiations to
(21:00):
be launched, but they'd have a specific outcome that they
would both endorse on the call, and that would be
a you know, a mutual readout of the call would
be you know, almost identical.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Moments ago, you said something very important when you talked
about China's ability to wait things out and maybe their
ability to take pain for a longer period of time.
Is that their secret superpower in this negotiation with the US.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
That's you know, definitely a strength they have. But again
I don't want to overstate it, because there are serious
economic problems in China, including unemployment, and you know, we're
already seeing some of their export companies having to shut
down and lay off people. And so you know, while
(21:48):
I think it's a strength they have. I also think
it's it's not, you know, a situation they can live
with forever. But again, I think when they look at
the United States and the increasing concerns that businesses, consumers,
the bond market, the.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Stock market, all over the weekend saying.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yes, very respected business people sending that signal, you know,
to the White House that this is unsustainable.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
All right, Imagine tomorrow morn do you get a call
from the White House, Wendy, We're in a little bit
of a jam here. What do you recommend we'd do?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Well?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
How could we come out of this looking smelling like roses?
What would be that roadmap?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Well, first, I think that some kind of unilateral permanent
lifting of the tariffs, even if a partial amount of
the tariffs, would go a long way. Number one. Number two,
I would encourage the White House not to stick with
this ten percent reciprocal tariff. And number three, in negotiating
(22:56):
with countries, put the sectoral tariffs on a table as well.
And I think if they did all three of those,
I think they would have a greater chance of success.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Do you feel as though this tariff blitz, let's call
it a blitz globals evenly target targeted, evenly across our
allies and China, or do you feel as though there's
a difference here. What's in some quarters the belief is, Hey,
we're going to kind of shock everybody, then we're going
(23:28):
to reunite with our closer allies US, Canada, Mexico, Europe, Japan, Korea,
and ultimately train our efforts on the big gorilla in
the room, that being China. Do you do you think
that's where this is headed or is your feeling like, no,
this is actually tariff's across the board on everyone all
at the same time, that's the new America.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Well, look, I think if our key objective was a
collective approach towards China, that hitting our allies and partners
with tear ups is not the way to go.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
It's exactly to the opposite of what we would expect
to see it.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah, okay, And even if we reach agreements with them,
there is a feeling among countries around the world that
they are being bullied, that they need to reduce their
reliance on dependence on the United States, that maybe they
need to reassess their relations with China and at least
look for certain areas for improvement. And so I think
(24:26):
what's going on now is going to have long term effects.
It's going to be very difficult to unwind and turn
around in a short period of time. As I always
tell people, Look, you can lose you know, it's easy
to lose trust with a partner. It's extremely hard to
rebuild it. You can lose it, you know, quickly. Rebuilding
(24:48):
takes a lot of patience and a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
When we think about the end of World War two,
what was it nineteen forty five, that's fifty five plus
twenty five eighty years of building trust in one hundred days.
Can unravel that quickly? Wow, Yeah, it's real.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
It's real.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
To our final question now, Wendy, and that is books.
Do you like to read books?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I love to read books, but mainly fiction.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Mainly fiction.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Okay, so I read as an escape. You I like that.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
What is your all time favorite book of fiction?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Well, that's really very difficult to answer. But when I
when I when I when I think of books, I
always think, Gosh, at some point in my life, I
should write a book.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yea.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
And if I had to write a book, I'd love
to write one about my negotiating experiences. You know, I
think through the years, I've had the benefit of working
with some of the smartest people in Washington, d C.
Both in Republican and Democratic administrations, as well with Congress
and our ambassadors abroad. Not to mention all of the
(25:55):
counterparts in foreign countries I've worked with through the years,
and really, you know, I've learned in negotiations and just
to kind of you know, apply it to what I'm
seeing today. What really concerns me on top of that
trust factor, which is so key in any successful negotiation,
is particularly an international negotiations, Pursuing a win win agreement
(26:19):
is key because those agreements are durable if their win lose.
And I've negotiated some of those, particularly with Japan in
the nineties. After they were concluded, we had lots of
implementation problems and Japan and particularly found well lots of
workarounds and so and I would contrast that with working
(26:41):
with Korea on a free trade agreement where they wanted
to do it, we wanted to do it, and we
both got benefits out of the agreement. If both sides
feel they got something out of it and they weren't
just bullied into a deal or all the benefits were
one sided, then they're more likely to make sure that
that agreement is fully implemented.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
We need you to write the book, Wendy. When's it
going to be published?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Well, we're a long way from there, but right after
this podcast, I'm going to start.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Right Well, call it the new art of the deal,
the more advanced art of the deal. So when when trust?
What's the single And I know our time is really limited,
but what's the single most surprising thing, good or bad
that's happened to you in negotiations? Like is there a
moment in time you'll never forget? Like, oh, this is
(27:32):
a huge lesson in negotiating something unexpected or different.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah, you know, there's so many of them. I do
remember when I first started negotiating, and I believe it
was with Japan, and you know, I thought I was
really well prepared, and I did. I knew everything about
our proposal right inside and outside. And then my Japanese
counterpart said something like, well, mss Cutler, it's funny you're
(27:57):
asking us this because in the state of California, you
follow the same practice as we do. And so even
though I was prepared, I wasn't fully prepared because I
didn't know enough about our system to defend it. And
once you learn something like that or find yourself at
the negotiating table unprepared, you make sure.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
That never happened again. Again.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
It was a good lesson early in my career. But
lots of stories like that.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And that would be a very Asian, make Japanese style
to politely say, oh, by the way, thank you very
much for the question, but excuse me, yeah, what about
this thing over here?
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Right? And they were prepared. They put a lot of
resources into these talks, and you know, had the you know,
had the staff to learn as much as possible to
you know, to use to their negotiating advantage.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Brilliant. Wendy Cutler, thank you for joining me today. I
hope to see you next week. I'll be in Tuesday
Wednesday for the US China Business Conference.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Yeah, I'll see you there. Yeah. Okay, okay, awesome, Okay, great.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Wendy, thank you, take care, thank you. There you have it,
folks from Wendy Cutler. A consummate professional with deep experience
in the negotiating trenches, knowing how to get deals done.
(29:23):
What a good deal looks like, what are the main
takeaways from our conversation. I've got three. One on Mexico,
Wendy thinks America's priority there is to make sure China
does not secure a base inside Mexico that Chinese companies
can later use to access the American market, so called
workaround or backdoor. Today, China is the number one supplier
(29:46):
of cars to the Mexican market, so American concerns are
not unjustified on that front. What about China there, Wendy
believes that Trump's senses or believes there's an opportunity to
strike a grand deal with the People's Republic. But Wendy
is quick to say, no, that's the wrong read. That
(30:07):
China will not be an easy country to come to
terms with. I would agree. Wendy notes, the two sides
basically don't trust each other right now, and it's hard
to make a deal when the dark clouds of tension
hang over the scene. And Third, on Japan and Korea,
the sailing there might be a little bit smoother because
ye after all, those countries do depend on the United
(30:30):
States for national security, and that kind of protection is
getting more crucial by the day as China muscles its
way out into the waters of the Pacific. Hey, great
conversation with Wendy. I hope you enjoyed it as much
as I did. Thank you for joining us today. I
am Michael Dunn and this is the Driving with Dune podcast,
(30:53):
where you meet the experts creating the technologies that will
power tomorrow's cars electric autonomic u software.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
To find this is the Driving With Done podcast. Thank
you for joining this episode of the Driving With Done podcast.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
To connect with Michael Donn, visit doninsights dot com or
find Michael on x or LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
This is the Driving With Done Podcast.
As a long time foreign correspondent, I've worked in lots
of places, but nowhere as important to the world as China.
I'm Jane Perlez, former Beijing bureau chief for The New
York Times. On Face Off, the US versus China will
explore what's critical to this important global relationship Trump and
Sijan ping, Ai, TikTok, and even Hollywood. New episodes of
(00:26):
Face Off are available now wherever you get your podcasts.
We're top executives and crazy entrepreneurs gathered to talk about
the future of electric vehicles. This is the Driving with
Done podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hello and welcome to the Driving with Done podcast. I
am your host, Michael Dunn. So, ladies and gentlemen, how
do we begin to get our minds around the global
blitz of teriffs unleashed by the Trump administration. That's the question?
Is it madness or is there a method to the madness?
(01:05):
One thing certain, Donald Trump has definitely captured the attention
of leaders in Asia, Europe, Mexico, Canada and yes, let's
not forget Greenland. They're trying to come to terms with
arguably the greatest economic and trade shock in decades. So
are we? No one is not affected by this. Joining
us today is Wendy Cutler, one of the most skilled
(01:28):
negotiators on the planet. She knows trade, she knows Terris,
and she has more than thirty years of experience negotiating
trade deals. I ask Wendy to walk us through the
current state of trade and tariffs, what she thinks President
Trump is trying to get done, and how this great
tariff blitz is likely to land. Let's just say she's
(01:51):
not brimming with optimism, but she does have some advice
for the White House. When the phone rings, Wendy Cutler,
Vice President Asia Society Policy Institute, here on the Driving
with Done podcast. Hello Wendy, and welcome back to the
(02:16):
Driving with Done podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Well, thank you, it's my pleasure to be back. Lots
to talk about, so much.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
To talk about, but we know nothing's more important, of
course than cars, so I need to know to get
us started today. What was your very first car?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Well, the first car I drove regularly was my mother's car,
which is a red Dodge Dart, and I remember that
very well because it was the first car I'd ever
been in with an FM radio and that was so cool.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
A Red Dart FM radio. Did it have. Was it
manual or automatic? Transmission?
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Automatic?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Automatic? Oh yeah, okay, you're cruisings? Where was Where was
home at that time?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
In New York, New York, New York City in the suburb?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Okay? Yeah, all right, so we got a picture what
you drove your first car. Now let's take a big
sharp left turn and talk about tariffs. And arguably there's
nobody better in America talk about tariffs and trade than you.
So I'm so happy you're here with us. Tell me,
in your view, what's the overall objective of this American
(03:22):
tear of blitz.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Well, it's a very simple question, but there's not a
simple answer because the President has laid out different objectives
at different points of time. And what's so confusing is
that some of these objectives run across purposes. So, for example,
(03:44):
while he will say at times, oh, this is just
for negotiating leverage, which suggests you put the tariffs on
and you lift them the day later, he could say, no, no,
they're really for revenue purposes, and that suggests you want
to keep them on. And so again, lots of different purposes.
Bring down the deficit, incentivize more investment in the US,
(04:07):
raise revenue, get rid of unfair trade practices, negotiating leverage.
And that's five objectives. Again, some are consistent, some are not.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
You're sitting across from President Trump in a negotiation with
all this noise happening, given your experience, what's your read?
What do you think? And we don't know and maybe
there's no real answer, But what do you think? What
you guess he's really after here? What's a win for him?
Speaker 3 (04:33):
So my sense is that where we're going to end
up at the end of this ninety day period in
the most optimistic scenario, would be a handful of these
so called framework agreements with countries that would allow for
the lifting of the reciprocal tariffs down to ten percentage points.
(04:55):
But from everything I'm hearing and reading, and given that
they want to have a revenue to I think he's
thinking about keeping a ten percent universal tariff on for everyone.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And you're in contact with people all over the planet.
What are you hearing these days? What's the overall reaction
to what they're seeing coming out of the United States.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Well, I think our foreign trading partners number one are
confused and lack clarity, and I assure them they're not alone,
but I think they're beginning to figure out that time
is on their side, that the administration now is coming
under increasing pressure to show that deals can be done.
(05:37):
And I'm also hearing that as the reality sinks in
that they're increasingly concerned that even if they reach a
deal with the Trump administration on trade that would allow
for the partial lifting of these reciprocal tariffs, would this
deal stick or are they going to be hit four
months from now with further tariffs. And this becomes extremely
(05:59):
real in that there are six ongoing investigations under Section
two thirty two our National Security Trade Statute, which all
could lead to higher tariffs which technically would not be
covered under a reciprocal tariff agreement unless that country succeeded
in getting the US to agree that should it, for example,
(06:21):
impost tariffs in the future on pharmaceuticals, that that would
not apply to country X.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So to some extent, it feels like if we're on
the opposite side from the United States, there's no end
of possibilities with regards to well, oh, by the way,
we're going to introduce a new tariff because X, Y,
and Z. That's what they're feeling.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I think they're feeling that this feeling of uncertainty is
going to continue for the next three and a half years.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
On the tariff front, three and a half hears suddenly
sounds like a very long time USMCA, I believe is
up for renewal in the not too distant future.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
What's your take there? Do you see it being extended
or do you think we're looking at a completely clean sheet,
new approach. Let's rethink the entire deal.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
So you're right, the us MCA, under its provisions is
subject for a formal review July twenty twenty six. In reality,
this review is going to start early, and just you know,
this week as we're recording, the new Canadian President Carney
is coming to meet with President Trump. So I suspect
(07:35):
that you know these talks are going to get going.
My view is this, these negotiations will focus on improvements
and amendments to the us MCA, and not like a
total rewrite. They'll keep a lot in place. However, in
certain key areas, particularly rules of origin and how Chinese
(07:57):
imports and exports and investment are treat Those are two
areas that are going to undergo a lot of negotiation
along with outstanding bilateral dispute, bilateral disputes including for example,
Canadian dairy or Mexican energy areas where we have not
(08:17):
been able to resolve our differences through the enforcement mechanisms
in the current USMCA.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
When you talk about the Chinese, to mention, what's the
number one concern from the United States with regards to
its partners and their relationships with China, the.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Number one concern is Chinese companies that are moving their
production or moving part of their operations to Mexico in particular,
and using that as a platform to export to the US,
either to receives USMCA benefits or even just to pay
(08:54):
the MFN tariff, which is much less than the current
tariffs visa China. And a concern that these Chinese companies
in moving to Mexico or Southeast Asia wherever, are really
doing this to avoid the tariffs without contributing a lot
of value added to the production in that third country.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
So a clever workaround by the Chinese. Don't want that backdoor.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Coming using using other countries as kind of a transshipment hub.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Washing. I think the headliners always washing washing.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Now, Yeah, that's that's the cool way to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Oh wait, that's the that's the word of the week.
Just came back from Mexico City. In fact, last week
confirmed Chinese cars are pouring in there. Unbelievable. They now
account made in China cars now account for one third
of new car sales in Mexico, up from nothing five
years ago.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
But that includes that's not all electric vehicles, right, that
includes ices as well.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Right, ices? And another twist, it also includes GM and
Ford products by their partners in China and then ship
back across the ocean to Mexico. So it gets complicated.
If you shut that down, GM and Ford also get hit,
which okay, so, but the main point takeaway you're sharing
with us is try to stop that washing by China
(10:18):
through in particular through our close neighbors Canada and Mexico.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Let's turn for a moment to Europe. When on the
phone with European friends of mine in the last couple
of weeks, they seem quite emotional saying it's over, We're
done with you guys. But I can't quite bring my
mind to believe that yet, So I wanted to ask you,
do you see a major reconciliation with Europe where we
get to zero tariffs or are things really tough and
(10:45):
we're in a new era.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I think it's the ladder. I think things are just
going to get tougher. And I'm not optimistic about reaching
a deal with the EU within this ninety day period
to allow them to roll back the recipro tariffs. I
think there's a lot of friction there the administration. You know,
no love lost for Europe. You know, in the background
(11:09):
you have the Russia Ukraine War, which is on everyone's
mind and impacting our relations with the EU. And frankly,
the EU is tough well, is tough to negotiate with
as well. I mean, they have to come to the
negotiating table coordinating positions of twenty seven countries that have
very different views on how to approach these issues and
(11:30):
how to deal with China. And as a result, you know,
Brussels doesn't have a lot of negotiating flexibility. So the
combination of of all of these factors leads me to
be pretty negative on a successful outcome here. But you know,
I don't want to be a pessimist here because at
(11:50):
the end of the day, you know, we're close allies
with Europe. We have a lot in common, a lot
of shared interest. Europe, to its credit is has come
to the US with some proposals of offers, including both
sides eliminating their tariffs on industrial goods, which the US
has rejected. But I think, you know, they are trying.
(12:13):
But again I think they have a lot less scope
and a lot less incentive as a big training block
to make huge concessions to the United States.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Why I'm curious, why did the United States reject that
counterproposal from Europe on industrial goods.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I don't think we want to go to zero on
all these products, number one. But also they you know,
Europe is conveniently not included agriculture, which is a sector
of great export interest to the US than where the
EU has a lot of protection.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Okay, you meant I think you nailed such an important point.
Maybe we don't always want to go to zero. So
for example, Vietnam recently hinted that Taiwan overnight, maybe we're
going to go to zero wrote tariffs on US imports.
Having lived in Asia, as long as I don't see
a lot of Vietnamese demanding American products, so they go
to zero in exchange for US going to zero. I'm
(13:11):
not sure there's a net benefit to the United States.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
That's one point, right, So what do we do now?
You're right, Yeah, you're right. And the other point is
that we don't want we don't want if countries are
if we're going to reach a tariff deal where we
lower tariff, where countries lower tariffs right now, we only
want them to do that for the United States. We
don't want them to do this on an MFN basis,
(13:34):
meaning it would apply to everyone, because that would not
benefit us. And that's a real change in US trade policy.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Okay, big change. Let's go way across the world, across
the Pacific. Japan Korea are stalwart allies for so long,
they of course enjoyed immense benefits from access to the
US market. If you're going to compare you know, our
relationship with Japan Korea with our relationship with Europe. Do
you how do you feel about how that will go forward?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
I think prospects are solid for reaching some kind of
framework with Korea and Japan during the ninety day period.
Why because we're close allies, and I also think the
President is going to remind these countries that we have
a lot of troops in those countries, and we pay
a lot of money for their defense, and so as
security allies, I think they're under pressure to reach a
(14:27):
deal with the United States. Now that's said, I don't
think it's going to be easy or simple with either
Korea or Japan. They both have elections coming up. Korea's
presidential election is early June, and Japan is facing an
upper house election in the Diet in July, and these
(14:48):
issues are on voters' mines and so for both countries,
I don't see them rushing to do a deal that
is that where they won't get anything. The deals going
to have to be win win for them. And what
I'm also hearing is that there's a growing concern that
while the US is saying it's willing to negotiate reciprocal tariffs,
(15:12):
it is not willing to lower the twenty five percent
tariff on autos or Japan and Korea or other countries
that has been implemented under Section two thirty two of
our trade law. And without that commitment, all of a sudden,
these deals for Japan and Korea become a lot less interesting.
So I'm not ruling it out, but I think that
(15:35):
negotiations with both countries has gotten a lot more complicated
in the past week or two, when it's become increasingly apparent,
and it could just be a negotiating position. I'm not sure,
but the US is not prepared to lower its automotive tariffs.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Up until now, we've been talking about our allies, Wendy.
Some days I wake up, I think maybe this whole
tariff blitz is part of a bigger confrontation between the
United States and China. So what kind of deal There's
been hints of a deal with China. What would a
deal look like?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
And you know, that's a great question. First of all,
I don't think at this moment now we can predict
that the two sides are going to get back to
the negotiating table in the immediate future. My view is China,
like other partners even more, really believes that time is
on its side and that they've seen President Trump pull
(16:30):
back from a number of aspects of the tariff policy already,
and so they recognize and that he's under increasing pressure
to produce deals and to show he can manage this
whole tariff situation. So I don't think China is in
any rush to get back to the table with US.
But I you know, look, they are hurting too their
(16:52):
economies week and it's a very export driven economy, and
when you lose access to your biggest export market, it
is a problem. So I don't want to discount those problems,
but I also think that they have a much higher
threshold for pain than we do. That said, at some
point we'll get back to the negotiating table, and you know,
(17:12):
certain people, and I heard Secretary bess And say this
last week, our Treasury Secretary that he would that he
would look to a big deal with China where we
could address the structural imbalances. My view is that is
a really huge assignment to take on and you can
(17:34):
end up never concluding that negotiation.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So I would have it You've had these structural imbalances
for decades now, and right is feeling more confident than
ever before that they're that their formula.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Is working right and through a trade deal, they're not
going to say all of a sudden, oh we're you know,
we're gonna get rid of state on enterprises and we're
going to release all our subsidies. Now. When they when
they to the WTO, they were in a different place,
and they did agree to some of that stuff. Obviously
we should have asked for a lot more in retrospect,
(18:09):
but I don't see them doing that. And frankly, there's
no trust between the two sides. And so based on
my experience as a trade negotiator, I would suggest you
start small. You make some incremental gains with a smaller
trade deal which would allow some relaxation of current tariffs,
and then you kind of build that trust and then
(18:31):
you know, move to you know, a deal that would
have more expansive and deeper commitments. But I think if
you bite off more than you can chew in the beginning,
you could end up in a situation where the negotiations
break down and then we're back into our president saying,
you know what, with no talks going on, China didn't
(18:51):
treat us right, We're going to impose more tariffs.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
More terroriffts, doubling down.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Doubling, tripling down.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Do you feel as though no one can get into
mind his mind? Of course impossible, But do you feel
as though Donald Trump, based on his first presidency, has
come to the conclusion that no deal, real deal is
even conceivable with China? We're just sort of locked in
a actually.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Quite the opposite, based on you know what I've heard
him say. I think he's very intrigued with this notion
that he could do that deal with China that no
one else could do.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Ah, and so I like the Middle East exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and Ukraine Russia as well. So
I think that that's kind of going on his mind,
and he's a bit frustrated because he would like to
personally negotiate the steal. And I'm sure as advisors are
telling him, you're not going to be getting a call
from Shieshunping anytime soon, because the Chinese would insist on
(19:56):
any on scripting any call and making sure that their
leader would not be embarrassed, humiliated, or surprised.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I'm curious what does that look like since you've been
there and witnessed it. So do the teams agree on
what's going to be said on that call?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, and it's not just with China. Years I worked
for the government, and we you know, I would work
with my counterparts to you know, come up with the
substance for the call, and the idea being that the
leaders got on the call, you know, they'd have their discussion.
Of course, you couldn't script everything they were going to say,
but you knew what the outcome would be, and then
(20:37):
both sides could announce it and announce they had a
positive call they agreed on X, Y and Z. I
think if she and Trumper to have a call after
AIDS worked on you know, the contents, we'd be looking
at a call maybe that would like launch negotiations or
launch you know, negotiations on the scope of negotiations to
(21:00):
be launched, but they'd have a specific outcome that they
would both endorse on the call, and that would be
a you know, a mutual readout of the call would
be you know, almost identical.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Moments ago, you said something very important when you talked
about China's ability to wait things out and maybe their
ability to take pain for a longer period of time.
Is that their secret superpower in this negotiation with the US.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
That's you know, definitely a strength they have. But again
I don't want to overstate it, because there are serious
economic problems in China, including unemployment, and you know, we're
already seeing some of their export companies having to shut
down and lay off people. And so you know, while
(21:48):
I think it's a strength they have. I also think
it's it's not, you know, a situation they can live
with forever. But again, I think when they look at
the United States and the increasing concerns that businesses, consumers,
the bond market, the.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Stock market, all over the weekend saying.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yes, very respected business people sending that signal, you know,
to the White House that this is unsustainable.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
All right, Imagine tomorrow morn do you get a call
from the White House, Wendy, We're in a little bit
of a jam here. What do you recommend we'd do?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Well?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
How could we come out of this looking smelling like roses?
What would be that roadmap?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Well, first, I think that some kind of unilateral permanent
lifting of the tariffs, even if a partial amount of
the tariffs, would go a long way. Number one. Number two,
I would encourage the White House not to stick with
this ten percent reciprocal tariff. And number three, in negotiating
(22:56):
with countries, put the sectoral tariffs on a table as well.
And I think if they did all three of those,
I think they would have a greater chance of success.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Do you feel as though this tariff blitz, let's call
it a blitz globals evenly target targeted, evenly across our
allies and China, or do you feel as though there's
a difference here. What's in some quarters the belief is, Hey,
we're going to kind of shock everybody, then we're going
(23:28):
to reunite with our closer allies US, Canada, Mexico, Europe, Japan, Korea,
and ultimately train our efforts on the big gorilla in
the room, that being China. Do you do you think
that's where this is headed or is your feeling like, no,
this is actually tariff's across the board on everyone all
at the same time, that's the new America.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Well, look, I think if our key objective was a
collective approach towards China, that hitting our allies and partners
with tear ups is not the way to go.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
It's exactly to the opposite of what we would expect
to see it.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah, okay, And even if we reach agreements with them,
there is a feeling among countries around the world that
they are being bullied, that they need to reduce their
reliance on dependence on the United States, that maybe they
need to reassess their relations with China and at least
look for certain areas for improvement. And so I think
(24:26):
what's going on now is going to have long term effects.
It's going to be very difficult to unwind and turn
around in a short period of time. As I always
tell people, Look, you can lose you know, it's easy
to lose trust with a partner. It's extremely hard to
rebuild it. You can lose it, you know, quickly. Rebuilding
(24:48):
takes a lot of patience and a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
When we think about the end of World War two,
what was it nineteen forty five, that's fifty five plus
twenty five eighty years of building trust in one hundred days.
Can unravel that quickly? Wow, Yeah, it's real.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
It's real.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
To our final question now, Wendy, and that is books.
Do you like to read books?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I love to read books, but mainly fiction.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Mainly fiction.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Okay, so I read as an escape. You I like that.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
What is your all time favorite book of fiction?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Well, that's really very difficult to answer. But when I
when I when I when I think of books, I
always think, Gosh, at some point in my life, I
should write a book.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yea.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
And if I had to write a book, I'd love
to write one about my negotiating experiences. You know, I
think through the years, I've had the benefit of working
with some of the smartest people in Washington, d C.
Both in Republican and Democratic administrations, as well with Congress
and our ambassadors abroad. Not to mention all of the
(25:55):
counterparts in foreign countries I've worked with through the years,
and really, you know, I've learned in negotiations and just
to kind of you know, apply it to what I'm
seeing today. What really concerns me on top of that
trust factor, which is so key in any successful negotiation,
is particularly an international negotiations, Pursuing a win win agreement
(26:19):
is key because those agreements are durable if their win lose.
And I've negotiated some of those, particularly with Japan in
the nineties. After they were concluded, we had lots of
implementation problems and Japan and particularly found well lots of
workarounds and so and I would contrast that with working
(26:41):
with Korea on a free trade agreement where they wanted
to do it, we wanted to do it, and we
both got benefits out of the agreement. If both sides
feel they got something out of it and they weren't
just bullied into a deal or all the benefits were
one sided, then they're more likely to make sure that
that agreement is fully implemented.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
We need you to write the book, Wendy. When's it
going to be published?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Well, we're a long way from there, but right after
this podcast, I'm going to start.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Right Well, call it the new art of the deal,
the more advanced art of the deal. So when when trust?
What's the single And I know our time is really limited,
but what's the single most surprising thing, good or bad
that's happened to you in negotiations? Like is there a
moment in time you'll never forget? Like, oh, this is
(27:32):
a huge lesson in negotiating something unexpected or different.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah, you know, there's so many of them. I do
remember when I first started negotiating, and I believe it
was with Japan, and you know, I thought I was
really well prepared, and I did. I knew everything about
our proposal right inside and outside. And then my Japanese
counterpart said something like, well, mss Cutler, it's funny you're
(27:57):
asking us this because in the state of California, you
follow the same practice as we do. And so even
though I was prepared, I wasn't fully prepared because I
didn't know enough about our system to defend it. And
once you learn something like that or find yourself at
the negotiating table unprepared, you make sure.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
That never happened again. Again.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
It was a good lesson early in my career. But
lots of stories like that.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And that would be a very Asian, make Japanese style
to politely say, oh, by the way, thank you very
much for the question, but excuse me, yeah, what about
this thing over here?
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Right? And they were prepared. They put a lot of
resources into these talks, and you know, had the you know,
had the staff to learn as much as possible to
you know, to use to their negotiating advantage.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Brilliant. Wendy Cutler, thank you for joining me today. I
hope to see you next week. I'll be in Tuesday
Wednesday for the US China Business Conference.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Yeah, I'll see you there. Yeah. Okay, okay, awesome, Okay, great.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Wendy, thank you, take care, thank you. There you have it,
folks from Wendy Cutler. A consummate professional with deep experience
in the negotiating trenches, knowing how to get deals done.
(29:23):
What a good deal looks like, what are the main
takeaways from our conversation. I've got three. One on Mexico,
Wendy thinks America's priority there is to make sure China
does not secure a base inside Mexico that Chinese companies
can later use to access the American market, so called
workaround or backdoor. Today, China is the number one supplier
(29:46):
of cars to the Mexican market, so American concerns are
not unjustified on that front. What about China there, Wendy
believes that Trump's senses or believes there's an opportunity to
strike a grand deal with the People's Republic. But Wendy
is quick to say, no, that's the wrong read. That
(30:07):
China will not be an easy country to come to
terms with. I would agree. Wendy notes, the two sides
basically don't trust each other right now, and it's hard
to make a deal when the dark clouds of tension
hang over the scene. And Third, on Japan and Korea,
the sailing there might be a little bit smoother because
ye after all, those countries do depend on the United
(30:30):
States for national security, and that kind of protection is
getting more crucial by the day as China muscles its
way out into the waters of the Pacific. Hey, great
conversation with Wendy. I hope you enjoyed it as much
as I did. Thank you for joining us today. I
am Michael Dunn and this is the Driving with Dune podcast,
(30:53):
where you meet the experts creating the technologies that will
power tomorrow's cars electric autonomic u software.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
To find this is the Driving With Done podcast. Thank
you for joining this episode of the Driving With Done podcast.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
To connect with Michael Donn, visit doninsights dot com or
find Michael on x or LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
This is the Driving With Done Podcast.
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