FADE to BLACK host: Jimmy Church guest: Robert Sullivan

Tonight, author and researcher Robert W. Sullivan joins us to discuss the Occult Symbolism all around us...

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, this Hope Radio for the Nassis headline of this

(00:37):
July eighth, nineteen forty seven.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
The Audi Airport has an outstart.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Applying this turpin found and there's now in the possession
of the yard air that.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
The game is really changed. The game game. I occasionally
think how quickly our difference is worldwide would venge if
we were facing an alien threat from outside? It just working.
This is Day to Black.

Speaker 4 (01:07):
It's your host, Jimmy Church on the Game Changer Radio Network.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, got a new menu up. Hey,
how you doing fade to Black? I am your host,
Jimmy Church. Today is Monday, July seventh, two thousand and
twenty five. Have a new menu in front of me. Yeah, yeah,

(01:35):
it's it's messing with my life, you know how you know,
when like Facebook or Twitter or whatever, you know, you
get used to it and then suddenly, you know, one
day you dial in there's a new I remember the
first time that happened. That was probably like two thousand
and eight, two thousand and nine, Like, right, I almost
quit Facebook on their first update. I was like, what, yeah,

(02:01):
still doing it though, still complaining, But here we go.
It's a brand new week. I'm fade to black, and
it's a short week this week. Tonight, which is Monday.
By the way, Robert Sullivan is back with us. We're
gonna be talking about his most research subject, a cult
symbolism tonight. I've been doing this with Robert for twelve

(02:24):
or thirteen years and we are going to continue tonight.
Tomorrow night is our once a month ama Ja ask
jimmy me speaking about myself and the third person ask
me anything. That is Tomorrow night. Wednesday night. Mike Ricksecker
is back Stargates and Atlantis. Thursday night. We are off air.

(02:46):
That's right, I'm out and off filming more episodes of
Beyond Believe. Yeah, yeah, pretty exciting. Okay, So that's what
I am doing on Thursday night and Friday. So there
you go. All right, I got to do this once
a month, everybody. Once a month. We're going to cut
a week of shows short. All right. I have one

(03:10):
major event coming up, and that is the PI Games
August first through the third, twenty twenty five out there
in Charlotte'sville, Virginia on the East Coast, and tickets and
info and the links for everything that you need. Speakers, accommodations,
where The event is at are in the links below.

(03:30):
Just click on it and I'll see you out there
for the SI Games. I wanted to mention really quick
before I bring Robert in. Robert has been on the
show many times and we were just sound checking, and
Robert reminded me, now check this out, he goes, This
is where I get into old man danger zone. Right,

(03:53):
failing memory, he goes, Man, I went and checked. I
did show numbers ninety with you. I was like, holy crap,
that sounds about right. I started to think that's over
two thousand shows ago. Think about that. That's absolutely incredible. Well,

(04:14):
Robert's back with us, and tonight we're going to continue
that discussion, the discussion around occult symbolism around the world
and in our media and stuff that you have seen
quite a bit. We're going to be doing all of
that tonight. I do also want to mention in the
chat right before the show started, I knew it. We're

(04:38):
going to talk more about this tomorrow night on the AMA.
I've got a lot to say, lots of emotions. But
on Saturday, Black Sabbath played their final show. It had
been a long time since all four members were on
the stage. Together, and I gotta say the whole day

(04:59):
that that was absolute rock and roll, heavy metal royalty
on that stage all day long. And to see the
appreciation of those musicians, all musicians, it doesn't matter if
you're in a country band. You learned Paranoid when you
were in school, that's just iron Man war Pigs. It

(05:22):
doesn't matter what kind of music you play, classical violin,
you learned, symptom of the universe, you did, you learned
those things. And Black Sabbath absolutely influenced everything and wow wow.
So we'll talk about my thoughts and my history with

(05:44):
Black Sabbath tomorrow night. And I don't think there were
too many lows for me. I think everything was generally
pretty friggin great, all right, it yeah, yeah, it was.
It was pretty great. Some of the sets really stood out.
A Tool for example, was absolutely amazing, and Slayer and

(06:08):
Anthrax man, oh, just so good. But all of the
super groups that were put together, and we were just
talking about Nu No Bettancourt and Rudy Sarzo. Rudy and
I have been best friends for you know, thirty forty years,
a long time, and I was very I mean to
just rip my heart out to see Rudy on that

(06:30):
stage doing his thing, and he's been a guest on
Fat of Black, of course I've been on his radio show.
But we've just done so many things together over the years,
personally holidays and all of that, neighbors and recordings. But
to see him honor his life with Ozzy on that stage,

(06:52):
it was absolutely incredible. And the reception and nw no
Betton Court hats off, man, hats off. Okay, all right,
so more about all of that tomorrow night, and one
last little note before being robbered in. I know this
is kind of a long intro, but look at my face.
I rode my Harley all weekend long, two and three

(07:13):
times a day. Woke up early in the morning, road
came home, got some work done, went out in the afternoon,
came back home, got some more work done, went out
in the evening. And I did that three days in
a row. I could not get off of my bike.
I missed it so much. So that's what I'm absolutely

(07:33):
sunburnt crisp, crispy I am. If you could see that's
the back of my arms inside or white, the sunburnt oof,
It's gonna be great through Yeah, Yeah, I got color
back in my face. Okay, so that's it. Short week

(07:54):
this week, but a great week this week. And tonight
Robert Solomon back with us. His close circle calls him Rob,
and we're going to be talking about symbolism and esoteric themes,
not only in cinema, focusing on the Wizard of Oz,
but we're going to jump into other films, Back to
the Future, Apocalypse Now, stuff like that, and the death

(08:19):
curse of Wizard of Oz. We're going to discuss all
of that and much more. He is a historian, he's
a philosopher, he's a jurist, he's a lay theologian. He's
a writer, a mystic, radio TV personality showman, best selling author, CEO,
and he's also an attorney. He's got five books out

(08:39):
that links for everything are below. And I would like
to welcome back to Fade to Black the one and
only Robert Sullivan. Robert good evening, young man. Oh you're muted.
Unmute yourself.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
There you go. Thank you Jimmy for having me on
back on Fade to Black. Yes, I was listening to
your intro and right, I can't believe it's been whatever
it's been twelve or thirteen years since. Yeah, since I
was first on. I actually remember the very first time,
which was it is episode ninety and it was actually
done on a landline phone back then, so it shows
you how long ago that and no video, no, no video,

(09:18):
Yeah no, this was just a landline phone.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Here's here's the thing. Uh with
thinking about that, I have I'm now in a very
enviable position of having an excuse of forgetting shit. Okay,

(09:42):
I've done too many yeah, I've done too many shows,
too many shows, right, So I have people come up
to me and and you know what, I'm just gonna
I'm just gonna say it. I'm just gonna say it.
People come up to me and go, man, that show
we did on Fade Black, it was just amazing, right,

(10:03):
And I'm standing there like, who are you? What you know?
And I need you know? And I play it off.
I don't say who are you you know? I'll play
it off. Yeah, yeah, that was a great show. What
did we talk about? Oh? My book? And I'm just
trying to get to who this person is. And I
have an excuse. I have an excuse. I have an excuse.

(10:25):
I'm old and I've done too many shows. You know
how great of a position is that to be in, right,
that's the yeah, yeah, I've got an excuse. Wow. Yeah.
And to think that you've been with this since the beginning,
it's good.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
I have a similar excuse. Of course, I can't remember
everything in my god. I mean, over the last thirteen years,
I've been on so many shows I couldn't even dream
of conjuring you know the names of them all. But
like I said, yeah, you're right, I mean I can't
remember either, you know. I guess for me, it's a
little bit where like you walk into a room, you're
go into your kitchen, it's like, what did I come
in here for? Again? But you know it just you

(11:04):
know happens when you get older.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
Okay, I I've had some memory issues lately. Nothing extreme, right,
But the memory issues for me is more about paranoia
or a Pandora's box, like, oh, this is it, it's starting.
I'm starting to lose my memory, right, And then today

(11:29):
I had a roommate in nineteen eighty four for about
two weeks before he got kicked out of the house. Okay,
we voted him out. That's another story. I haven't thought
about him in forty years, didn't know his name or

(11:49):
anything and hadn't and for some reason today making coffee,
he popped in my head and his name and I
was like, oh, oh whw, my memory is still good. Yeah,
it was weird. Uh for two.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Weeks like that.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yeah, yeah, just came out and know, I don't even
know what stirred the memory, but it was a sense
of relief for me that, damn, my memory's fine.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
Memory. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't worry about it.

Speaker 3 (12:23):
You don't, I know, man, I do. You don't take
what's that? What?

Speaker 2 (12:28):
What? What?

Speaker 3 (12:28):
What's that? Being? Coloba? What's that? What's that Japanese herb
that everybody takes for memory.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
That I don't know? Well, my memory is pretty good.
Knock wood.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
Okay, all right, well I'm gonna test you. Then, I'm
gonna test you. What's my middle name? No, I'm kidding,
I'm kidding. Uh yeah yeah that that that was a
that was a low shot. Here. Let's let's actually hit
the ground running. Uh yeah, gink o, thank thank you.
It's ginko bloba. Yep. Yeah, you've never heard of it?

Speaker 2 (13:07):
No, I don't know that one.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah, it's called ginko and here's the last one, Beloba,
what did I say said? But anyway, I tried taking
that many decades ago when it was like that, and
it just gave me the most gnarly headache. So yeah,
I took it for like one day. I was like, no, no,
and it's not working for me. Here. Here's once a

(13:34):
few researchers that I respect, you being one of them,
started to point stuff out to me. And symbolism is
something that we're all sort of aware of, and I've
noticed things over the years, but once you start to
talk to really gifted researchers, then you suddenly realize that

(13:55):
this stuff is everywhere and you almost can't unsee it.
How prevalent are symbolisms not only in media but corporate
American daily life?

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Oh I agree, Yeah, I mean I would tend to
agree with that.

Speaker 3 (14:14):
No, I'm asking you, how prevalent is it?

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Oh? Oh you're asking Oh yeah, I mean, I mean,
it just it depends on I mean, there's no hard
answer to any of this, and especially when you're getting
into films, a lot of it just has to do
with the sophistication of the filmmaker. That's my experience with it.
Some things there are some things that are not Quentin Tarantino.
I can't find a damn thing in any of his

(14:38):
movies anywhere, and I've watched all of it.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
I like them.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
I like reservoir dogs, like paulp Fiction, some archetypes, but
I can't find anything in any of his movies ever
worth talking about other than the movie itself. But then
you get into something like The Wizard of Oz, which
has so much going on in it. I could talk
to you for the next thirty years about that thing.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
Clinton Tarantino, what about what about Big Kahunaberger?

Speaker 2 (15:06):
What about it?

Speaker 3 (15:07):
That's a pretty good piece of symbolism. I'm enlightening, I'm
making it up. I'm just seeing if it would get
you going. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's a He's
got moments in the film that kept people guessing, Like
in pulp fiction when they opened up the case, remembering
that lit up John Trobolta's face, but you never knew

(15:30):
what was in the case and often wondered what is
it that he wanted to be represented in the case,
you know, cause that's.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Sort of like that's like fan theories and things like
that that I kind of stay away from.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Why isn't it fun?

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Not for me? No?

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Why that's the best mak Well.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
I'm more interested in things that I can actually talk
and see where it's speculat. I mean, I get into
it a little bit. I've gotten into it a little
bit with some of my stuff. But when you do,
I mean I point that out. I'm like, this is
just a fan theory. I can't really delve into what
it could be. I mean, you know, we just be
speculating all night long on that.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah. Okay, So are you? Are you any fun? If
you and I went to go see The Wizard of
Oz on the special screening? Would you be fun at
that viewing? Or are you looking for stuff that you've missed?

Speaker 2 (16:30):
I would not be fun. I'd be looking for stuff
that I missed.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
Do you thank you for your honesty? Uh? Do you
still pick up little things in the Wizard of Oz?

Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah? I mean well. One of the things that to
me is like like a tell of a good film
that's very symbolic, is I if I watch it a
couple times and I see things in there, but then
I go back to it again and again and I
see some other things. Then I know that there's really
a lot going on one. So, like, like recently, some

(17:03):
of the movies that I've been watching, the two that
really kind of jump out at me. And again it's
they have a lot of backstory with them because they
actually do tie into the Wizard of Oz. Was the
Nicholas Cage movie Long Legs, and then there was Late
Night with the Devil. There's a lot going on in
those and I watched them, and you know, I've watched
them more than once. I have them both here on
Blu Ray, and it's one of the type of movies.

(17:25):
They're kind of like Kubrick's The Shining or Aaronotsky's Black Swan,
where it's like every time I seem to watch it,
I seem to pick up on something new on it.
Wizard of Oz. The thing that makes that thing, Well,
that's a whole nother story on the Wizard of Oz,
because you know, the movie itself is really and the
novel is really two layers of symbolism. It's the political

(17:47):
allegory and then there is the you know, sort of
what you would call like the gnostic or mystical side
of it. Unsurprising because the guy who wrote it, L.
Frank Baum was a member of Blovatsky's Theosophy movement. But
there's a whole nother thing going on with the Wizard
of Oz that's really off the chart strange. But no,
when I can watch movies for fun, I mean yeah, no,

(18:08):
I mean I could definitely sit down and watch a
movie for entertainment values, for entertainment value. But a lot
of times, you know, I do find myself, you know,
trying to like, you know, make a mental note of
something or write it if I'm at home, write it
down so I can, you know, incorporate it or research
it or something like that. But no, I mean, like, like,
the movies that I kind of really enjoy watching are

(18:29):
ones that every time I seem to watch them, no
matter how many times I've watched them before, I always
seem to pick up on something new. And the two
that are are kind of like really kind of like
doing that right now or Late Night with the Devil
and Long Legs, very very very deep movies on both
of those. But Wizard of Oz is a great one.
Lot's going on on that, And again I don't want

(18:51):
to be smirch. Quentin Tarantino. I'm a huge fan of
his work. At least his early stuff. I love pulp fiction,
I love reservoir Dogs. Some of his later stuff I
think is crap, but I'm into his earlier stuff for.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
Certain Yeah, Quinton has a style and he's not deviating
from that style. I appreciate that part of it. Does
it get repetitive? Yeah, I've seen all this stuff. Wes
Anderson has a way of doing that for me too
as well. I love all of his films, But when

(19:23):
you see them back to back to back to back,
like I have, and I'll do a weekend of Wes Anderson,
it does tend to get a little repetitive. It doesn't
take away from his talent because he's one of my
favorite directors. But Quinton has fallen into that trap too
as well, where now he has to be Quinton right

(19:46):
and does the original creativity like with Jackie Brown. Right,
Jackie Brown was amazingly creative. But you tend to start
to repeat. Well, I wanted to ask you about what
a Babylon. Did you see Babylon?

Speaker 2 (20:04):
No? I have not seen that.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
Yeah you should. You should watch Babylon and get back
to me. Just just the title. It's a it's a
Robert Sullivan film.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
Okay, okay, I'll take a look at it.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, it's a it's a it's an amazing film. Now,
you just mentioned there is one overarching crazy thing about
Wizard of Oz, and then you stopped. What what where
were you going with that?

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Right? So the thing with the Wizard of Oz that
is so peculiar is there's some sort of killing curse
revolving around this film, and it ties into Aleister Crowley.
This is actually the main subject of my next book
that I'm working with right now, Cinema Symbolism Form actually
going to do one also called Cinema Symbolism Oz, which
is going to be everything on the Wizard of Oz.

(20:54):
But there is a peculiar killing code or killing curse
around the movie that moves on a sequencing of numbers
that ties into Aleister Crowley's Gematria and the coming what
Crowley called the aon of Horus, which is of course
just another name for the Age of Aquarius, which of
course has the Sun, which is all about the Sun

(21:16):
leaving Pisces and shifting into Aquarius. And there is a
sequencing of numbers that Crowley designates and what it gives
us hallmarkers as to when you will start seeing this
and they tie into what Crowley called the New Age
Sun God, and he gets into how this god is

(21:37):
pretty vicious and it's you know, it's a death machine
and things like that, and it's very I can explain it,
but it's very very intense and it's very very long
to get into.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
No, no, no, no, no, no, take care this. You've
you've got you've got my attention here, Robert. So right
when you say death curse, is that a curs that
happens out after viewing the film or is it suggesting
something during the film.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
It's neither, really, it's it has to do with a
sequencing of numbers. This thing operates on numbers and numbers
only and it designates a couple of them. And you
have to be familiar with Crowley's Jamatria, and if you
look back in time, going back to about nineteen thirty nine,
and actually the number thirty nine is an interesting number

(22:30):
as well. It it a lot of the tragedies that
have occurred since then, including World War two. And again
I have this is all in my next new book,
are including and using this krowleyan Jamatria. These numbers that
Crowley generated where Crowley basically is saying, you know, the
old age of Pisces is ending, the new age of

(22:52):
Horus or the age of Aquarius is starting. And when
you start seeing these numbers pop up, you know that
Pisces is over with an Aquarius or you know what
probably called the age of Aquarius, the aon of horse.
It's the exact same thing that this new age is starting.
And he gets into like, you know, the obviously the
sun god of the Age of Pisces is Jesus Christ.

(23:13):
He says, that's going to be gone, and he says,
the new son God is this thing called her Rahab,
which is this new manifestation of the Sun god horse.
But then he says something very interesting. He says, well,
this changes very quickly, he says, and hair Raha morphs
into this androgyn Is God, which a lot of people
in the world of conspiracy will know, which is called

(23:35):
the Goat of Mendes. It's also known as Baphomet. And
he gives this thing a number, and its number, believe
it or not, is seventy seven. And he says, essentially,
when you start seeing this number turning up, basically the
age of horses here in the age of Pisces is over,
and he gives some other numbers. He says, one of
the things that he gets into is uh. He says

(23:58):
that the wociated with this new age is this grand curse,
and this thing operates through this killing curse. And he
gives this thing the number of the number forty two
of all things, and he dubs this thing. He says,
the killing agent behind this thing. He calls this this
very demonic entity called the Dark Mother, is exactly what

(24:20):
Crowley calls it. And he essentially says, if you see
murder and death happening in the name of this son
God seventy seven, he says, keep an eye out for
this other number. You'll seeing that popping up as well.
And then you start looking at other crowley and numbers,
such as the number ninety three, which is of course
Crowley's equivalent for do what thou wilt shall be the

(24:40):
whole of the law. This is the mantra of the
New Age. You'll start seeing that number popping up on
uncannily amount of times. It's very peculiar. One of the
things Crowley talks about in his work. That is also
he talks about this one hundred and twenty years ago.
But what is so strange about it is everything he
talked about is now coming to pass. And everything he

(25:02):
talked about people used to make fun of myself included,
But now everything he seems to be talking about is
actually coming to pass. And one of the things that
he specifically says this, he says, when one of the
things that you're going to notice is with when the
new Sun God, this Baphamet takes over and the age
of Horace or the age of Aquarius is here.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
Is seventy seven God?

Speaker 2 (25:26):
Well on one of the things, Yeah, that's correct, he says.
One of the things he says there is there is
There is two things that he says at the very
early stages of this Sun God, he says, there are
two things that you're going to start seeing that aren't
going to happen before. He said, You're going to start
seeing something called transgenderism, he said. And that is where
men start to believe there are women, he says, And

(25:46):
when you see that, that's not the word he uses.
He uses the words like epiccene. That word wasn't available
to him back then, he says. But when you start
seeing men acting like women or believing there are women.
He said, that is the worship of this new sun God.
And he also says there's another form of worship that
this thing except likes, and that's environmentalism, global climate change worry.

(26:09):
He says, these are the two real hallmarkers of when
this new sun God is taking over. And he says,
but keep an eye on these numbers, because if you
go back in time, you'll really essentially till nineteen thirty nine.
That's when you see these numbers start popping up. But
here's where this becomes really peculiar is a lot of

(26:31):
Crowley's numbers. And this is me speculating here a little bit.
I have to point that out. Is Crowley's numbers sync
with the Wizard of Oz, the actual movie, and this
seems to be unknown to Crowley. This is not planned out.
One of the things that makes this thing so bizarre
and so creepy. And this is where I'm speculating a

(26:53):
little bit here is I am convinced that if it
was just these numbers turning up around these tragedies like
nine to eleven or the Kennedy assassination or the death
of Princess Diana or Columbine or things like that. I
would be willing to say, yeah, it's Crowley, no problem.
But what makes this thing so utterly strange when you

(27:15):
look at it, and this is by far and away
it's most macabre aspect. When you look at these tragedies,
and when you look at these deaths buried in there somewhere,
will always be these little references what I call illusions, references, citations,
call them what you will. To the actual Wizard of
Oz movie, it's very creepy. I am somehow convinced, I've

(27:37):
convinced myself, or maybe that's not the right word. I'm
convinced that there must have been some sort of death
curse or something placed on the author of The Wizard
of Oz L. Frank Baum, and it never took root.
And the reason I say that was I say in
the book, I believe it ties into the Native Americans,

(27:59):
to the Native America and Indians, because if you're familiar
with L. Frank Baum, this is of course the guy
who wrote The Wizard of Oz in the late nineteenth century.
He actually called for the genocide of all Native Americans.
And I am convinced that there must have been some
sort of killing curse put on him, but it never
took effect because Baum seems to not be affected by

(28:21):
this or his family in any way. But somehow or another,
this curse latched on to Crowley's numbers, to this new age,
and whenever these tragedies are occurring, not only are they
using Crowley's numbers, but they include little citations to the
Wizard of Oz. It's very peculiar and one of the
key things to understanding this, and this is again one

(28:41):
of the things I talk about in the book. There
is a cinema symbolism for and cinema symbolism Oz is
how Crowley's numbers actually sink with the Wizard of Oz
and the two big numbers in all this is this
number seventy seven.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Which when when is this visible in the Wizard of Oz.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
Now in the movie, it's nowhere. It's nowhere in the movie.
You will not find it in the movie anywhere. It
is a actual events such as nine to eleven that
are incorporating Crowley's numbers that sink to the Wizard of Oz.
So it's you will find Wizard of Oz references in
tragedies going back to essentially nineteen thirty nine, and the

(29:22):
key to this. Again, you won't find it in the movie.
You won't find it in the movie at all. Now
you'll find a call themes in the movie. But this
exists sort of outside of the movie. But if you
start going back in time and you look at a
lot of these tragedies you will find these little Wizard
of Oz illusions in there. It's very creepy. And again,
what makes it so bizarre is, unbeknownst to Crowley, a

(29:46):
lot of his numbers sink to the Wizard of Oz.
And the two biggies are this number seventy seven, which
is the number of this new age sun god Baphomet,
which if you read Crowley's work, Crowley actually calls this
thing oz o Z. And the other big number is
the number forty two. This is Crowley's kill number that
sinks to the Wizard of Oz because the number forty

(30:07):
two ties into the rainbow, because human beings can only
see rainbows at forty two degree angles. And again, when
you look at these tragedies going back in time, these
numbers forty two and seventy seven will routinely turn up
at startling levels. The number seventy seven seems to be

(30:27):
more out in the open. That one's a little more
easier to find. But that kill number forty two, this dark,
mothered entity, whatever you want to call it, kind of
like hides in the shadows. She's more harder to pick
up on. But it's if it is this, If it
is this kill curse, those numbers must be present. I
cannot if those numbers are not there, it is not.

(30:49):
This has nothing to do with anything. And you get
into things like using jamatria and ordinal values of numbers
and dates, and it is astounding how these numbers will
turn up. It's quite remarkable.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
Let me ask you. Okay, okay, so the you mentioned
the direct tie in of seventy seven to Wizard of Oz.
But it's seventy seven's not in the movie anywhere, right,
you won't find Okay, hold on, hold on, okay, hold on,
hold on. So I'm understanding, got you, got you? Got you. So,

(31:22):
if you're not familiar with Crowley and you're not reading
his stuff, then the Wizard of Oz is harmless and
you wouldn't see the connections or the allegory.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Correct. That is absolutely correct. If you have no knowledge
of Crowley's numbers, this will fall by the wayside.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
Wow. Interesting, but his Oz was his name for his god.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (31:51):
Wow. Huh.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
Now, now that said, I don't want to diminish the movie,
because the Wizard of Oz film itself does have a
lot of of esoteric and occult themes.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
Oh it's so full of Yeah. Yeah, you look, you
take Crowley out of the mix and you just watch
you watch Wizard of Oz. It is full. You got
to remember what the world was going through back then
and when that movie was made. There everything is represented
in that film politically wise, and you know, the current

(32:23):
events of the world, pop culture, everything that was happening
is in Wizard of Oz. It's all represented.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Oh, I agree. And and again, like I you know,
if you take if you remove Crowley out of the mix, yeah,
then the movie is just you know, and it ties
into the novel and there's a lot going on in it. Absolutely.
You know, you have the political allegory and then you
have your what I would call your gnostic capitalistic themes
in it as well, this journey of nosis that Dorothy

(32:50):
Gale is going upon. So yeah, I don't dispute that
at all. But again, if you read, if you read
Crowley's Gematria and you start seeing it, that's when it
really gets interesting. I mean, like for example, I mean
just the one that you know, we just went back
to the Wizard of Oz. One of the things that
was really interesting with that was it was way if
you read Crowley's numbers. One of the things he does

(33:11):
is he takes numbers that are in the Bible and
then he reverses them. He loves doing this, and of
course one of the high holy numbers in the Bible
and even in Islam is the number seven. That's a
very divine number. Crowley reverses this and he says, well,
for this new age of Aquarius, for this new age
of Horus, seven is a totally even evil number. It's

(33:34):
completely evil. It's the most evil number out there. It's
at least one of them. And of course, The Wizard
of Oz was released on August twenty fifth, nineteen thirty nine,
and of course seven days later later was the outbreak
of World War two officially, so again Crowley was nailing
this one hundred and twenty years ago. And it is
very very remarkable.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
Didn't the band Striper use seven seven seven as their numbers?
And they were supposed to be a Christian.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
I'd have to look I'd have to look at that.
But one of the things that's really interesting who used
seven seven seven and befell in early death was Michael
Jackson and he actually went to a psychic. And this
this is very interesting with Michael Jackson. If you look
at some of his later albums, he uses the number
seven and seven seven seven all over the place. And
it's interesting you bring up the number seven seven seven

(34:23):
because Crowley gives that value as well, and he says,
that's one of the most evilest numbers out there. That
is the demonic forces of the Kabbala Marshall, that is
basically Satan at full strength is the number seven seven seven.
And it's interesting because Michael Jackson actually was using that
number very frequently towards the end of his life. And

(34:44):
the story with that was he went to a psychic.
And this was back in like the late mid eighties
when the pedophilia stuff started coming out and he was
having a hard time, and apparently he went to a
psychic and the psychic told him, well, you should start
using these numbers. These are very biblical powerful numbers. Unfortunately,
I don't think the psychic realized that we were now

(35:06):
in the new Crowley in age, and the numbers that
he was giving Jackson were the kiss of death. And
if you look at if you look at Jackson again again,
the number seven and seventy seven covers his life, especially
towards the end of it. That's something else I delve
in in the book is how Jackson, you know, was

(35:28):
using these numbers and it seemed to be his death now.
And one of the things that's interesting with Jackson is
you say, well, where's the Wizard of Oz reference. Well,
of course Michael Jackson was in the Wiz and he
played the scarecrow in his right And if you apply,
if you actually applied Jamatria to the word scarecrow, I
believe it has an ordinal value of the number forty two.

(35:50):
And again that's Crowley's kill number. So bad news for
Michael Jackson.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
Now, let's talk about Late Night with the Devil a
little bit. This this film big time positive critical critic
response to the film. But in case, well what's the
film about? For those that don't.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Know, well, there's a lot going on in this and
in this one it looks like what I say in
the book is this movie is like long legs. This
looks like it was produced by Alistair Crowley using his numbers.
The movie is about if you just like strip it
away and you just look at the It's.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
A clever it's a clever, clever, friggin' film.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Man.

Speaker 3 (36:36):
I've seen it. I've seen it me too. I've seen
it five or ten times. One of the best endings ever. Right,
this is pretty good.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Oh yeah, I have it here on Blu ray. It's
a great film, credible. Well, you know, it's a lost
footage film about this television show, this late night television
show that takes place, of course in nineteen seventy. Of course.
I mean it's naturally Crawley, and I mean got the

(37:06):
wicked witch in it in the in the thing, we
got twin towers references all over the place with nine
to eleven. I mean, my god, the guy in the
audience is forty two years old. I mean this Crowley
must have written this thing from start to finish. But
it's a movie about this lost footage of this television
show where the show is kind of failing and they

(37:28):
have a psychic one. They have a woman one who
you know, this little girl winds up getting possessed by
the devil. I mean, you clearly see an exorcist influence
on it. One of the things that I really liked
about it was, and this is always a good hallmarker
for me for for like a movie that really knows
what it's doing, is there there was definitely some confusion

(37:50):
in that movie where the demon that was apparently tormenting
this little girl was a Braxis, and the one guy
in there, Carmichael Haig says, oh no, no, a Braxis
is the Gnostic god, the Showman god. That's correct. That
is the actual correct interpretation of the god of Braxis.
It's more of a Gnostic deity than it is a

(38:10):
demonic figure. But one of the things that was interesting
is clearly it was insinuated in this movie that Jack Delroy,
this is the David boy I'm gonna butcher his last name.
The Maashall Hammond character plays, is in league with this
same demon or this entity. And if you pay close

(38:31):
attention to.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
It, it's Dasil Malshian.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
That's it. Dashel Maushan plays Jack Delroy. If you watch
the movie very closely, at the very end of it,
when he's sort of making the pact with a Braxis
and he takes the cup. You'll notice the symbol of
a Braxis on the cup, which is of course the
rooster headed god with the serpent legs. Keep an eye
out for that. And the other thing that was very
interesting about this was you couldn't help I mean, obviously

(38:57):
there is an overt I mean, you don't need Roberts
to tell you this, the overt reference to Bohemian Grove.
That's obvious. But one of the other things that's very
interesting I found in that movie was if you were
looking at the ritual and you were kind of looking
at the set design. Oh and by the way, we
talked about the Wizard of Oz. You know how Jack
is sort of this duplicitous wizard like character. The set

(39:18):
is the Rainbow, by the way, upside down. Very interesting.
But if you look at it, you clearly see the
devil in there. You see the skeleton, and you can't
help but think of skull and bones and sort of
the rituals that they use because they involved the devil
and skeletons as well. And what was interesting about Late
Night with the Devil was it was released on March
twenty second, which is of course three two two, so

(39:41):
you couldn't help but think of maybe a skull and
Bones influence on that one. But I loved it. I
loved I loved Late Night with the Devil. I have
it here on blue ray. Very very very good movie.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
What's great. It is full of symbolism, by the way,
its intension with symbolism from the word go. But it's
an excellent script. It's a very original screenplay and idea.
The special effects for a movie like this top notch.
All of that is great. The look that they captured

(40:16):
of Late Night TV in nineteen seventy seven spot on
the money. It's just it's a great film, and you're
not full of symbolism, But man, I like originality. And
you don't see what's coming in this film, seen after

(40:37):
scene after scene after scene. It's so for the when
you watch it for the first time, it's totally unpredictable.
You don't know where it's going.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Oh yeah, I very much liked it. And the other
thing I just thrown with Crowley is the movie's ninety
three minutes, and of course that's Crowley's mantra to do
what thou wilt should be the whole of the law.
Oh yeah, clearly. I mean, the Chris do character is
obviously sort of like a you know, Uri Geller Chriswell
type character. The Carmichael Hay character is clearly based on

(41:06):
the amazing Randy Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:08):
He's great too, He's so good.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yeah, And obviously the one guy is obviously supposed to
be an Anton Leavey stand in. But no, I love
the movie. I thought it was very very good. I
would highly recommend it. And you know, if you're in
the horror or suspense and lost footage movies, Yeah, I
mean I loved that. I loved that how they made
it feel like nineteen seventy seven had that definitely late
seventies vibe, which I remember, I'm sure you do too.

(41:35):
Very good movie, you know, And like I said, one
of the things that I liked about it was again
it has this very ossie and vibe to it.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Now, can we let's get back to the number forty two.
Mentioned it a few times tonight. When I see the
number forty two, I automatically go back to The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yeah, I don't know what, Yeah, I mean, I don't
know why it's in there. I only apply it to
Crowley because I mean, if you read Crowley, he will
tell you over and over again, this is the kill number.
This is the death number. This is the great number
of the curse. Be careful of this number. YadA, YadA, YadA,

(42:19):
and again when you look at these tragedies, that number
forty two is all over the place. And I don't know,
you know, my taking on is more of a Crowley
in number than anything else. But I'm aware of the thing.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
Maybe, but maybe that's but maybe that's why it's in Hitchhikers.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yeah, I mean it could be. But if if, if
that is the case, then you'd be foolish to put
that in because that's not a number you want to
play around with.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
And so what what's the deal with the number forty two?
I know you said kill number, But what's what's the
meaning behind it? Why? Why two?

Speaker 2 (42:54):
Well, I mean it's it's it's the number that Crowley
gives it, just gives it in. It's in the book
of a Book of Lies. You'll find it in seven
seven seven. It's just the forty two. This is the
death curse number. This is the great number of the curse.
Exactly how Crowley describes it. And if you go back
in time and you look, I mean, goad, I'd have

(43:15):
to pull some of it out. If you look at
these tragedies that happen again, you will find that number
forty two popping up in there. But that number is hidden.
That one doesn't stand out like a sore thumb. Seventy
seven does forty two You got to search around for.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Man, it's very interesting. How yeah, I've got this. I'm
not going to say it. I've got a new I've
got a new menu and things are different now, and
yeah it's straight and it doesn't matter. It's just me
noticing things on the screen for the first time, the
things you do on a Monday after Fourth of July weekend?

(43:57):
When why is it that numbers mean so much to us?
And they trigger us? And we see them all over
the place in movies and TV, walking down the street,
looking at a car, whatever it is. Now it's gotten
to the point where I think that those that want

(44:20):
to mess with us know that these numbers trigger us,
don't they.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
I don't know if triggers the right word, but they're
definitely important because one of the things that I think
that is when it comes to numbers. And I've said this.
I think I may have said this one of your
past shows, but I've said it on other shows. Oh
and by the way, I should point out it's very
appropriate we're talking about the number seventy seven today because
of course today is July seventh, seventy seven, so of

(44:47):
course very appropriate to be talking about this. There's no ambiguity.
There's absolutely no ambiguity. I mean, especially when you're tying
it with Crowley. I mean, you can find the number.
You can pull out seven seven and look it up
and find out exactly what it means. I mean, it's
not open to speculation. Where you know, some of the
movies like Wizard of Os, they're multilayered, so you can

(45:09):
talk about the political allegory, you can talk about the
gnostic allegory, you can talk about alchemy and movies like
Black Swan. But whenever a number pops up, that's usually unambiguous.
I mean, and there's very little room for doubt at
that point in time. And again, when when you see
a number turning up, the you know, for me and

(45:31):
at least a lot of times in cinema, that's a
good sign or hallmarker or tell that you know, either
the movie is going to be including things or there's
going to be veiled references or underlying tropes or themes
or something like that. Because the number is is not ambiguous.
It's unin big ambiguity. You know, there's no ambiguity, is

(45:53):
what I'm trying to say. It's not subject to interpretation.
For example, like you know, we've been talking about the
number forty two. You turn to Crowley and he'll tell
you exactly what it means. It's it's there's no speculation
on it. So I think that's one of the things
also that makes this so interesting is you know you
just see the same sequencing of numbers over and over
again and again. You know, it's I'm just giving you

(46:17):
a couple of them. You know, seventy seven is a
big one. Uh, forty two, ninety three, the number seven,
the number nine, the number eleven, uh three three three
is a number one is another one that that that
that has a lot of meeting in all of this,
uh and uh again when when when you look at it,
I've been looking after two years now. So you know,

(46:38):
the one thing that I will say about this is
every time I see something. I mean, I cannot tell
you how many times I have sat back in my
chair and say, You've got to be kidding me. When
I've looked at these numbers, and again I look at
a tragedy. And and even now, you know, like this
Texas flooding, you know, I'm keeping an eye on that.
I need to see what it looks like when it's over.

(46:59):
But I would not be it all surprised if when
this is over there's some sort of little You know,
these Krawleyan numbers aren't popping up in there. That would
not surprise me. And if there is, then I got
to start looking for the Wizard of Oz reference because
that will be there also. Wow, Well, did you know
there's not one without the other. There's not one without
the other. They all have to be present.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
So did you know that the moon takes twenty seven days,
seven hours, and forty two minutes to orbit the Earth.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
No, but that wouldn't surprise me.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
What about the Great flood? Right? Do you think there's
some Crowleyan numbers and mystery? Even you know something like that?

Speaker 2 (47:39):
What is this thing with Texas?

Speaker 3 (47:40):
No? No, the Bible, the Bible, the Great flood.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
No no, no, no, no, this is all for the
New Age. You can take everything in the Bible, Crowley says,
and put it in the trash can. He said, that's
all history has no meaning to anything. I cannot find
any evidence of this thing existing prior to eighteen thirty nine.
When The Wizard of Oz comes out. That's when this
thing really starts to become kinetic. And one of the

(48:07):
two things I'll say is I'm lying there. There is
one thing. There is a prelude to this thing that
happens earlier on that is astounding, and I Am not
going to say what it is right now until the
book comes out, because it is the most uncanny thing
I've ever seen. But this can, this curse, this thing
with Crowley, does not become kinetic until The Wizard of Oz,

(48:27):
the movie is released. I cannot find hardly any evidence
of it prior to that. I have found one thing
that seems to be foreshadowing it, but I'm not going
to say what that is. There is no way I'm
giving that up until the book comes out. But one
of the things i will say is this is probably
the reason why there was so much tragedy surrounding the

(48:49):
Wizard of Oz movie. I believe it relates to this thing.
I mean, Judy Garland had all kinds of problems. You know,
Margaret Hamilton, who is the Wicked Witch, who is of
course your prototype, your archetype for the Dark Mother. She
you know almost well, she had her face burned off,
her stunt double got hurt. Of course, there's the story

(49:10):
with the hanging munchkin, which probably is true. They've done
everything under the sun to edit that out. If you
go back and watch the early versions of The Wizard
of Oz, the ones in Erald TV and the old
video cassette, you will clearly see that thing hanging there.
Now they digitally removed it. It's a stork now you'll
find there. But I'm not at all surprised. I mean,

(49:33):
I've always heard that was a a wives tale, but
I believe that's probably true. But a lot of the
tragedy surrounding the Wizard of Oz, I believe is this curse.
And again, one of the things that's very interesting with
this was, I mean, you know, was if you just
look at the movie when when when The Wizard of

(49:55):
Oz came out, the two big movies that came out
in thirty nine were The Wizard of Oz and Go
with the Wind. And when it came time for Oscar time,
the Wizard of Oz won a couple, but Gone with
the Win won most of them. Interestingly, they were both
directed by the same guy, Victor Fleming. Now I know
the Wizard of Oz had four directors, which is something

(50:15):
entirely different, which also has significance. But the loss to
the Gone with the Wind and the Oscar ceremony that
year for nineteen forty was held at the Ambassador Hotel.
Well who got shot at the Ambassador Hotel several years later, Well,
that would have, of course been Robert F. Kennedy and
he was only forty two years old at the time.

(50:36):
No surprise again. And this is the way this thing works.
It is a sequencing of numbers, and once you start
seeing them, the floodgates will open and they will be
all over the place.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
You mentioned three three three earlier. Oh why three three three?

Speaker 2 (50:54):
If you read Crowley, he designates that as a demon.
That is a demon. That is the three to three
to three is the number of a demon known as Corason,
and that is a very very very vicious entity. You
want nothing to do with this thing. It's known as
the dweller in the Abyss, And a lot of times
in these tragedies that number will pop up, not all

(51:16):
of them, but a lot of times that number will
pop up. And when you start seeing repeating threes or
daisy chains of threes or three three three, keep your
eye out, because that's, according to Crowley, that's this demon
Corason messing around on the side.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
Essentially, when did a cult symbolism start to pop up
in culture?

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Great question. You can actually trace it back, I mean
it predates Hollywood. You can find esoteric themes and tropes
and undercurrents in the works of Herman Melville. You can
find it in Edgar Allen Poe. You can find it
in Nathaniel Hawthorne. We can find it in the works
of Richard Wagner. We can go back in time, even

(51:59):
prefer that with Mozart. Of course we have it in that.
But one of the biggies, really, I guess, is when
like you want to talk about like where people were
using pop culture to convey meaning, you really go back
to William Shakespeare and Christopher Marlowe, where you had two

(52:19):
people putting in competing themes in their movies, and of
course Shakespeare was likely Sir Francis Bacon. I think that's
pretty much a foregone conclusion in this coterie of people
he was working with, and you will really see Marlowe
who is doing the work of the Jesuits and is
trying to undermine Queen Elizabeth and John D and people

(52:40):
like that. And then you have Shakespeare and Bacon on
the other hand, who are lauding Queen Elizabeth and John
D in their work. So you have this competing pop
culture war in Elizabethan, England between Christopher Marlowe and between
William Shakespeare. And of course the story was that Marlowe
that was so despised by the Queen and by John D,

(53:02):
that John D had had enough of this guy. I mean,
it's the whole thing with Faust. I mean, the whole
story is John D, that John D got so sick
of this that D went to Queen Elizabeth, and that
Marlowe was murdered in a bar, apparently by agents of
Queen Elizabeth the first because D was so sick and
tired of this guy. So you will definitely have sort

(53:23):
of the counter Reformation. Christopher Marlowe on the one end,
you know, undermining Queen Elizabeth. I mean you'll find this
in his work. But then you have Shakespeare, who is,
of course, you know, the Fairy and Spencer, the Fairy Queen, uh,
Midsummer's Night, the Tempest. This is where John d Is
turned into the White Magician. So really for me, and

(53:45):
this is you know, something I talk about in the books.
When you know, when you really start to see you know,
you know, pop culture using occult undercurrents take you know,
it really seems to take root. Going back to Elizabeth
in England with d Christopher Marlow, William Shakespeare, Sir Francis Bacon,
that's really when it really seems to start taking group.

(54:07):
But it predates Hollywood. You'll find it in the early
works of Hollywood. But of course you'll find it, you know,
in all phases of Hollywood, from the inception all the
way up to July seventh, twenty twenty five. I mean,
it hasn't gone away and it's still with us.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
Yeah, with all of your research, Robert, seriously, do you
sage your house, do you salt your house? Do you
protect yourself?

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Very good question. That's also a very good question. So
now for right now, what I'm in my study doing this,
and so I don't know if you ever saw the
first Omen movie with Gregory Pekee, Okay, you remember, do
you remember Father Brennan in that movie? You do remember?
Remember his little ratty apartment where it was covered with

(54:53):
the walls with the Bible? Remember that? Yes? Yes, right,
So my study right now, I have a lot of
historical artifacts and collectibles, but now I have a lot
more Wizard of Oz items because I believe the Wizard
of Oz items is like keeping this thing away from me.
If that makes sense to you. I have Wizard of
Oz stuff all over.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
The place, and that protects you, I think, so, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I think so.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
I mean I have I mean, I have some really
nice Wizard of Oz items, like autographs of like you know,
Ray Boulger and Margaret Hamilton. But I have some of
the Tchotsky's also, And yeah, I do believe this stuff
is protecting me.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
Yeah, okay, fair enough, fair enough. Well it could also
be a placebo protection. As long as you believe it
protects you, then it protects you.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
Well here's the thing also with it is a lot
of times like the Wizard of Oz, like I said,
it can be a very negative thing. But I've come
to believe that I'm kind of a guy exposing this.
So I feel like, you know, this is sort of
like a protective talents for me almost. And yeah, I
mean it's not festooned. That's probably an exaggeration, but I
do have some Wizard of Oz collectibles that, again do

(56:07):
I believe are kind of like keeping this thing a
little bit away from me.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
That is so interesting. I mean, I I I have
problems sometimes and this is just all in my head.
But when I'm reading something, if I'm reading a book
on baphomet right and I'll stop, It's like, you know,

(56:33):
I don't want this information in my head, and I'll stop.
I'll know when I get to that point, if you
know what I.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
Mean, I understand what I understand. Something similar happened to me,
but I kind of went down the other road with it.
Was when I first started noticing these Crowley numbers and
these Jamatri numbers. It was around nine to eleven. It
was around the nine to eleven event, which, believe it
or not, Crowley actually gives a name to it in
his book. He calls it the Supreme Ritual, and he

(57:03):
says this will be the one that all eyes will see.
And when you see this, the age of horse is here,
or the age of Aquarius is here. He calls it
the supreme ritual. Crowley's numbers cover this thing blanketed. We
could do hours on this thing. But then what I
started looking at was I thought, huh, well, this is
kind of interesting. And I said to myself, I wonder
if these numbers also turn up on some of these

(57:25):
other tragedies. You know, is there like something maybe like
the Kennedy assassination or Columbine or the Murrah building. Were
these sort of like like many forerunners or like lead
ups to this, And sure enough they were. When you
start looking at those events also, you will start finding
these numbers popping up. And that's when I kind of
realized knew. That's when for me that I knew that

(57:47):
I was onto something. And that's when I had to
proceed kind of cautiously, like you said, because at this point,
I'm thinking to myself, well, what am I playing around with?

Speaker 3 (57:56):
Right? Right?

Speaker 4 (57:57):
Right?

Speaker 2 (57:57):
You know? What am I playing around with here? Because
this thing does to be real? And I did, you know,
kind of move a little cautiously with it, and my
experiences with it is. You know, when I started seeing
these little Wizard of Oz illusions, this was not a
good thing. But then for me it was almost well,
maybe I should incorporate these Wizard of Oz things into

(58:18):
my life as a protective talisman, and that seems to
have worked. Knock Wood. But again, when you're looking at
these tragedies, the numbers will be present, but also there
will be these little Wizard of Oz illusions. At least
one of them will be buried in there, and that
has to be there.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
Our guest tonight, Robert Sullivan. Tonight, we're talking about occult
symbolism all around US pop culture and otherwise. This is
Fade to Black. Stay with us more with Robert right
after this short break. Stay with us. Subscribe to our

(59:22):
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here at Machupichu with Brian Forrester and Hidden INCA tours.

(01:01:12):
Amazing tour so far, Brian. But we're here to announce
what we're gonna do next year in twenty twenty six.
What's going on?

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Okay, November twenty twenty six, We're going to have our major.

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
Tour of Peru and Bolivia.

Speaker 4 (01:01:25):
Either a pre or post tour of Parakas and Nasca
on the coast, and then after that six days.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
In Easter Island bucket list. Easter Island. Come join Brian
and Ian his amazing team here at Hidden Koturs four, Peru,
Bolivia and Easter Island signing out, Say goodbye Brian, Bye gang. Yeah.

(01:01:53):
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Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
All right, welcome back Fade to Black. I am your host.
IM sure tonight. Robert W. Sullivan is with us. We
call him Rob by the way. I don't know what
the W is there for? Rob Is it separating you
from all the other Robert Sullivan's out there?

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
And you? Yeah, will Robert W. Sullivan? So the W
is William?

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
Oh? Gotcha? Gotcha? Okay. This weekend Black Sabbath had their
farewell concert in Birmingham, England. It was broadcast all day long.
It was called Back to the beginning. I'm a big
black Sabbath guy. And when you go through the metal

(01:03:27):
years like I did growing up with it for the
last fifty years in my life, we were all our
little metal community was always battling those on the religious
side of things, pointing out the symbolism that was all
about metal music. And one of those one of those

(01:03:49):
things is six sixt' six And I never concerned myself
with that, but they did and do. What is six
six six, right?

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
So if you look at six sixty six, that's actually
the number of Aleister Crowley. That's the number he actually
takes for himself. And if you really break this down,
it's a solar reference. Sixty six six is the ancient
number of the sun in the Book of Revelation, which
you know I wouldn't pay too much attention to, especially anymore.

(01:04:25):
The actual number was supposed to be six sixteen for
the anti Christ, but they changed the six sixty six
because in Greek Jematria, Jesus is Christ's name is eight
eight eight is what his equivalents, and they wanted a
number with three in a row, so they went to
six sixty six. But when I see the number six
sixty six. That reminds me about that that that at

(01:04:49):
this point is just straight to Alista Crowley at this point,
and again, a lot of times in these movies, keep
an eye out for the number two sixteen because if
you see the number two sixteen, that's uh six cube,
that's six sixty six. And again a lot of times
when you're seeing these movies that are like remakes of
the Wizard of Oz or have these you know, numbers

(01:05:11):
in them, keep an eye out for two sixteen. That's uh,
that's a that's a six sixty six reference. And if
you recrowlly on that, he said, that's a very powerful number.
He says, it's a it's a solar reference, and it
draws women to you. He said, that's probably one of
the reasons why he took six sixty six. But he says,
if you see the number two sixteen, he said, that's

(01:05:33):
a woman magnet. He said, that's a you know that
draws women to you. And believe it or not, And
again this was Crowley talking one hundred and twenty years ago.
If you take the name of the king of rock
and roll, Elvis Presley, and you throw in his middle name,
his name actually has the value of two hundred and sixteen.
Very interesting, And if you are familiar with my other work,

(01:05:54):
Elvis sinks a lot with the sun. A lot of
his life reflects the movement of the Sun. Apollo, of course,
the sun god, who is also the god of music,
and of course Elvis being the sun god. In sixty
sixty six being a a solar reference, he recorded a
lot of hit hit songs on a microphone designated six

(01:06:15):
hundred and sixty six.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
Very interesting is is Crawley misunderstood.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
A little bit? My take on Crowley was, and this
was a lot of take on it was when when
when you first started looking at it, is this was
just Crowley like making this stuff up or just was talking,
you know, or just trying to get attention. But I
don't think this is the case anymore. And here's why.
I mean, I believe that he clearly must have conjured
this entity a wass that was predicting these things to

(01:06:47):
him and talking to him. The one thing about Crowley
is he's very genuine about this. I mean, once he
has this meeting in nineteen oh four with this a
wass entity, I mean, he literally quite literally spends the
rest of his life trying to put a system in
place for this new age. He puts numbers in place,

(01:07:08):
he creates a tarot deck, he writes a book on
this tarot deck for this new age. Everything they're out
is how to acclimate themselves to this new age. And
he never, he never really makes money off of it.
I mean he never. There's no fraud element involved in this.
I mean, he seems very genuine about it. There was
never a fraud element with him. So, you know, is

(01:07:33):
he misunderstood to an agree because I think a lot
of people, myself included, really didn't take him seriously. But
when you start looking at this number system that he
generated one hundred and twenty years ago and some of
the things he was saying, you know, it seems to
all be coming to pass. So my take on him
is changed quite drastically. Where he was kind of viewed
as this joker, sort of controversial figure, which he is,

(01:07:56):
of course, but he seemed to really have been in
touch with something that I'm not sure even he fully
understood what it was. And you know, he seems to
have been more of a tool of this thing than
anything else, you know, you know, with with what he
was doing. I don't think he knew what was coming.
Maybe that's what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 3 (01:08:15):
So in my I limited again, Crowley is somebody. Crowley is
somebody that very interesting, and I start to do the
research and I just kind of back off. It's like, man,
I don't know if I need this information in my head.
And he's one of those cats now. But in my

(01:08:35):
limited knowledge of him, he had his house on Lockness,
and it is my understanding he had dedicated large amounts
of his time to perfect I don't want to say
its name, to to perfect a ceremony and built the

(01:09:01):
house and a room in the house dedicated to this
special dirt on the floor and so forth. And then
apparently he completed that said ceremony one time and he
never did it a second time. Is that true?

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Well, the way the way, the way Crowley right wrote
it was he went to this he had this home
in locked Ness where he was trying to get in
contact with his holy guardian angel and in order to
do that the right it's the ritual he was performing
is called the magic of Abramelin the Mage. That is
the ritual he was performing, and it's highly complex and

(01:09:41):
it involves the binding of certain demons. It's a very high,
highly complex ritual. Now here's the thing with that is,
if you read it, the magician that is doing this
has to remain very pure. No drugs, no sex, no alcohol. Well,
if you know anything about Crowley, that that that was
his life. Yeah, that didn't go over well with him.

(01:10:02):
That didn't go over well with him. So he was
up there and he was working on this ritual, but
he stopped. He just gave it up. He just was
guff fed up with it and he just stopped. And
then you fast forward to years later. He's in Egypt
with his wife and they're in the Great Pyramid, and
all of a sudden, his wife, who apparently had no
knowledge of this, essentially said, if you want to complete

(01:10:24):
that ritual that you started all those years ago, you
have to do this and you will be in contact
with your holy Guardian angel. Crowley thought she was loco.
I mean, you know, Crowley thought, you know, you know,
she doesn't know anything about the occult or magic or sorcery.
You know, where the hell is this woman getting this
stuff from. But apparently Crowley started listening to his wife

(01:10:45):
and was like, all right, you know, you seem to
very you know, you really seem to be intense with this.
You seem to know what you're talking about. I'll give
it a try, and sure enough, this this this entity
eventually does appear to him. He actually does complete the
ritual and the name of his holy guardian Angel is
this entity called a Wass. And a wass has a

(01:11:06):
value also, and that's of course ninety three, and that's
the value of do what thou will shall be the
whole of the law. Crowley was very fascinated from that
point one to trying to assign numbers to a lot
of this stuff. We're trying to figure out numbers, and
he wrote a whole book on it. And again at
that point in time, this is nineteen oh four. The

(01:11:27):
rest of his life he is trying to generate a
system of magic and essentially writing books prophecy. And this
is the main one. This is the Book of the Law.
Where this is this book that was dedicated or was
dictated to him by this entity a Wass, which is
going to be this new age Bible. What's interesting about

(01:11:48):
the Book of the Law is Crowley said it was
a book of prophecy, or at least included, you know,
elements of prophecy of things that were going to happen,
and you can actually find in there there does seem
to be I mean, it's it's not gonna lie he
it's quind of like Nostrodamis. It's like the Quatrains. I mean,
there is clearly a reference in there to this thing

(01:12:10):
he calls the Supreme Ritual, and if you read this
thing very closely, it is obvious he is referring to
nine to eleven. There's also an illusion in there to
to the Kennedy assassination. In there with R. P. Stoval,
which was one of the companies that Oswald worked for,

(01:12:30):
and was also the name of the police officer who
found some stuff in Oswald's apartment was like our beast
over or something like that. I think I look that up.
But from there on out, Crowley is dedicating his life
to just writing books about what this new Age is
going to look like, you know, and what it was about.
And if you read books about Crowley, one of the

(01:12:53):
biggies that I would recommend is reading about reading the
works of Israel Regardi. He is very well respect it.
Crowley called this new Age this new age that was coming,
the Age of Horace, which is of course the Egyptian
son God, and if you read it in Israel regard,
he says it's the Age of Aquarius. That's what he's
talking about. He just called it the Age of Horace.

(01:13:15):
But again, Crowley gives these hallmarkers, this roadmap that he
lays out, and it's very, very fascinating, and again a
lot of it inadvertently. There's no way Crowley knew this
is sinking with the Wizard of Oz. That's what makes
this thing so strange. It's the only word I can
think of.

Speaker 3 (01:13:34):
I could Crowley, just could he? I want to say
this the right way, but this is my twisted brain. Okay,
he was He just a guy that liked a party,

(01:13:55):
had a wild imagination, and then just happened to write
this stuff down.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
It's a little bit. Yeah, I understand. Yeah. I mean,
there is definitely the joker element of Aleister Crowley that
is irrefutable, right, But there's also the element of this
guy really seemed to know what he was doing. And
I will be the first to admit that. You know,
sometimes it's hard to separate out the two. And that's
why I say, I don't even know if he was
fully aware of all of this. I have poured over

(01:14:24):
Crowley's works and there is absolutely no reference anywhere in
any of them to the Wizard of Oz. I mean,
there is no evidence that he knew L. Frank Baum
or these books or anything like that. But what is
so peculiar about this is he generated the system of numbers,
and a lot of them, not all of them, but
a lot of them sink with this movie. And you know,

(01:14:46):
I don't know why that is, but it is real
and there is what, Like I said, there is one
thing that I am holding back that if I were
to tell you, and if I were to go through
all this with you, you would have no doubt about it.
I mean I speak about it because I've been examining
it for the two for the last two and a
half years. I mean, I have zero doubt in my mind.

(01:15:08):
I mean it started with me was trying to debunk
this thing. I'm looking at it with nine to eleven.
I'm thinking, Okay, here are these all these numbers. Let
me see if I can't find them again. And I
sure enough that you know the best. You know, It's
like the guy said, in the omen the best is
yet to come, and here they are again. Here they
are again, Here they are again, and you just start
reaching a point where it's now like now, it's not
a coincidence. And if I don't see these numbers, I'm

(01:15:29):
going to be surprised. So my initial reaction was kind
of like, you know, to debunk this thing, but it
was just too startling, too over the top. I've been
looking at it for two and a half years. There
is no doubt in my mind. I mean, I'm talking zero.
I mean, I like, you know, my first book was
The Royal Archervinach. I like the Masonic symbolism. We talk

(01:15:50):
about some of my other movie books, like you know,
Alchemy and Black Swan, the Shining, the Repetition, the moon Landing.
This thing makes all that other stuff look like a
walk in the park. This is by far and away
the most fascinating thing I have ever looked at in
my entire life. Without question, everything else is child's play
to this thing.

Speaker 3 (01:16:09):
Well, where does it? Where does the information come from?
Is it channeled? What comes first? The numbers are the
event or they tied it? Is it peer prophecy? Is
it coming from consciousness? Or the connected universe.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
So it is it is a killing curse that moves
on numbers, and these events will incorporate these numbers. The
problem with it is I've tried doing that. I've tried
doing what you have said is like look at an
event and then forecasting seven days ahead or forty two
days ahead and seeing if something turns up. That's the
problem with it is I don't. It is imp that's

(01:16:47):
the thing. It is very clever, this thing. I don't
know if I'm doing seventy seven years, seventy seven days,
seventy seven months, seventy seven hours, forty two months, forty
two days, forty two years. This thing works all over
the place and again. But when you start breaking it
down and you could it's more it's like it's like
Nostra Domins that I really hate to use him as

(01:17:09):
an example, But it's easier to see looking back at
it than it is to predict it ahead because I
don't know what I'm dealing with. I know the numbers,
but I don't know, like I said, if I'm dealing
with seventy seven months, days, weeks, or years, and it
can be any one of those. Again, the one thing
I'm keeping a very close eye on is this flooding
in Texas and it's People say to me, hey, do

(01:17:29):
you think there's anything with this? I don't know yet
because I have to see how this thing plays out,
and it's not finished. And again, if this thing is this,
if this Texas flooding is this thing, these numbers will
be there. If these numbers are not present, it is
not it. These numbers must be present. So I have
tried predicting it out, and I haven't had too much

(01:17:50):
success with it. But if I look at an event
and I start seeing those numbers pop up, you'll start
seeing other stuff, like it's like a floodgate opening. Then
you may start seeing the number forty two. However, in
all of these events, in all of them, there will
be this little wizard of Oz illusion in there that
must always be present, that has to be there or

(01:18:11):
it's not it. And again, you know, you just you
just you know, nine to eleven. I mean, I'm just
going off the top of my head a couple of them, Columbine,
the Murrah Building. You know, these numbers were okay, And.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
I'm gonna I want to get to the JFK assassination
but let's let's back up to the events over the
last month. Because when things jumped off between uh Israel
and Iran and everything that has been talked about for decades,

(01:18:45):
if not centuries of not millennia, was that's where things
are gonna start and take off, and that's where you know,
that's it. And when it did start to unfold, Robert
I sat back and go, Okay, well, now we can
watch the religious and conspiracy theorists, you know, start to

(01:19:05):
light up Facebook and social media and connecting the dots
with all of the biblical prophecy and others over the years.
But then the events kind of died down. Did you
look into that? Was there was there anything that was
telling there or did it lack something? And and it

(01:19:26):
didn't fit the historical narrative that you know, we were
starting to expect. You know, the dogma was playing itself out,
wasn't it right?

Speaker 2 (01:19:36):
So like like with like with the like the Ukraine
War and with like the thing with with with the
with the October seventh that that's still playing out. So
like that's one of the things like in my next book,
like I have a note on that, like to look
into that. But I haven't really looked at it hardcore
of late.

Speaker 3 (01:19:54):
And not not the current twelve day flare up.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
No, I haven't. I haven't examined it. I haven't. I
haven't applied any numbers to it. It's like a list
of my things to do. It's on my to do list.

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
The one thing, you know, I mean, it's like it's
like when what is happening is is is if every
event that like was popping up, if I were to
stop and start analyzing it, I'd never get the book done.
So what I'm doing right now is just like making
like a laundry list of things that I am looking at,
like to go back and look at the last one.

(01:20:28):
The last one that I kind of looked at was
one that like where it was somewhat recent. I think
it was like a year year ago, or maybe even
two years ago. Now was I don't know where you are,
but I'm here in Baltimore, and we had the boat.
The ship crashed into the key bridge and it collapsed
the bridge. And again this was something that I knew,
you know. I sat up in my chair when I

(01:20:50):
saw and I thought, okay, is this this thing playing
out a couple of people died over it, if a
lot of people may not be I'm in Baltimore, so
I'm familiar with this because I watched the news. The
exit before the bridge is exit forty two, and the
waterway was closed for seventy seven days. So now I know, Okay,
this has to be something, you know with this, that's
the kind of things I'm looking for. So what I'm

(01:21:11):
looking for, like this thing with Iraq and with Ukraine.

Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
Hey, Robert, keep your hand down. There you go, there
you go, Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Continue that. Those are like on my to do list
of things to look into. But I don't want to
speculate right now because I haven't thoroughly researched them.

Speaker 3 (01:21:30):
Yeah, when the whole Israel iron thing I was I
was like, okay, here we go. Didn't think this would
ever happen, but it seems like this is something that
could spin out of control and and I hate to,
you know, to step back and go, well, I guess

(01:21:51):
they were right. I don't like to get into that position,
but it seemed like we are right on the edge
of some thing crazy going on. But you know, thankfully
everything died down. But what about uh Crowley and the
JFK assassination, and and and again you mentioned nostrodamus, and

(01:22:14):
I think that's a really good metaphor because now we're
dealing are we dealing with prophecy or are we dealing
with math? You know, that's the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:22:26):
It's a little it's a little bit of both, because
like with with with John F. Kennedy and the Kennedy assassination,
one of the things, you know, we talk about the
Kennedy curse, and I mean, I believe that this Wizard
of Oz curse is it if you look at Kennedy.
I'm just doing this off at the top of my head.
I have I have more of this in the book.

(01:22:47):
Is right before Kennedy was killed, I can't remember the
name of the company, but there was actually three card sets,
like trading card sets that were put out of Kennedy's life.
One had seventy seven cards, another had seventy seven cards,
and one had forty two cards. So that yeah, really yeah, yeah,

(01:23:08):
so that's not a good thing to start with. Of course,
Kennedy is killed by the Wizard of Oz by Lee
Harvey Oswald, who dispatches Lee Hart, I mean, who dispatches
the Wizard of Oz of course the Ruby slippers, Jack Ruby.
So those are our little Wizard of Oz illusions. And
of course Kennedy is killed in Daily Plaza from a

(01:23:30):
seven story building with seven windows as he approached Root
seventy seven. So I mean, this is all Crowley's fingerprints
all over this thing, from start to finish. And this
is again, you know, one of the ways this thing's work.
His brother, Robert Kennedy, was killed at the Ambassador Hotel
where the Wizard of Oz lost the best picture Oscar

(01:23:51):
tore Gone with the Wind, at the age of forty two.
There's a seventy seven in there somewhere, but I can't remember.
And Teddy Kennedy, Teddy Teddy Kennedy died on August twenty fifth,
two thousand and nine, at the age of seventy seven,
on the seventieth anniversary of The Wizard of Oz's theatrical release.
Those cannot be coincidences.

Speaker 3 (01:24:11):
Wow, that's fascinating. And Root seventy seven, really, have you seen? God?
I gotta think of it here in a second. There's
a movie with Ben Stiller. It's old. It's called Highway
to Hell. Have you seen that?

Speaker 2 (01:24:27):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:24:28):
Okay, it's it's hard to find. But for everybody out there,
just watch it. It's it's an interesting movie anyway. The
boyfriend and girlfriend at the beginning of the film are
driving on Root six six six. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And

(01:24:48):
I always thought that that was a pretty interesting play,
of course on Root sixty six. But Root sixty six
always stuck out in my mind. But what do you
think the deal is with that? You just mentioned Root
seventy seven. Well, we've got Route sixty six, don't we.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
Well, Root sixty six is interesting because there's a TV
show called Root sixty six and there is an episode
called to Kill a King that predicts the Kennedy assassination perfectly.
I mean it was actually supposed to air on November
twenty second, nineteen sixty three, and it predicts Kennedy's assassination.
And it also is allusions to a deadly virus, and

(01:25:29):
of course that's the coronavirus. And that's another interesting thing
with this curses. You will find throughout this thing a
little like you will find in like the coronavirus, things
that like predicted nine to eleven. The curse overlaps, you
will find like like if you look at something going
back in time, you will find something anticipating another element

(01:25:51):
of this curse years later. That's something also very interesting.
The thing with Root sixty six is there is an
episode of that called to Kill a King, which pretty
much predicts the assassination of JFK to a t It
was actually pulled, it didn't run for a few months later,
and it was actually close to air on November twenty second,
nineteen sixty three. And one of the things, if you

(01:26:13):
you know, goes just going back in time with Kennedy
approaching Roots seventy seven, and of course this is the
sun God. If you fast forward, you take a look
at Root seventy seven, Well, if you take it south,
of course we hit Waco, Texas, which of course burnt
to the ground with the Branch Davidian Complex, and if
you do Jamatria on the word Waco, that has a

(01:26:34):
value of forty two. And of course the Branch Davidian
Complex set on a seventy seven acre ranch. Unsurprising. Again,
I've been looking at this. This is no surprise to me,
and I mean there is no doubt this isn't happening.
If you take rout seventy seven north, then we hit
Oklahoma City, where we had the Oklahoma City bombing, which,

(01:26:55):
of course when it went off, the air conditioning temperature
was the water was said at a forty two degree coolant.
Timothy McVeigh was arrested exactly seventy seven minutes after the
bombing in a nineteen seventy seven Ford convertible. No surprise there.
I mean again, this is all Aleister Crowley. This is

(01:27:17):
all his numbers at work.

Speaker 3 (01:27:19):
Do you change? Do you change your day if seventy
seven pops up?

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
No? I don't change my day. But then, well, one
of the Well, it's funny that you mentioned that, because
this was about two years ago when I first started
getting into this. I was sitting in my car and
I was driving along. I remember just kind of started.
I was thinking about this. It was on my mind,
and I actually remember kind of like thinking aloud, was
so to the effective? Am I on the right track here?

(01:27:46):
With all this stuff, with these numbers? Am I on
the right track? Someone give me a sign. I don't
care if it's positive or negative. And of course I
looked up from my steering wheel, and this is a
true story, and there was a white van in front
of me, and it's like since plate was seven seven
seven seven seven, and I thought, Okay, now I'm on
the right path.

Speaker 3 (01:28:05):
What not? You're just making that up?

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
That is a true story.

Speaker 3 (01:28:12):
Wow, I got nothing. When am I ever speechless? Like
a moment like this? That's pretty crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:28:20):
Well, I mean, like I said, I mean, you know,
if you if I'm used to it. I'm used to
it because I've been looking at this thing for two
and a half years. I mean, I just give you
some examples of the Kennedy assassination. I mean, nine to
eleven is another one, I mean, and just a couple
of examples. I mean, the North Tower at nine to
eleven is struck at eight forty six. Of course, Flight
ninety three crashes at ten oh three, So from the

(01:28:44):
start of nine to eleven, from the first plane hitting
to the last plane crashing is exactly seventy seven minutes.
Flight seventy seven takes off from Dulles Airport, which is
on the seventy seventh parallel, crashes into the Pentagon, which
is a seventy seventh story building, and of course it
is airborne. It takes off at a twenty and it
crashes at nine thirty seven. So Flight seventy seven is airborne.

(01:29:07):
You guessed it for exactly seventy seven minutes and it
hits the Pentagon And this is on their official website,
coming in at a forty two degree angle. Jimmy, I'm
used to this. This is old hat to me. And
this is the killing curse at work.

Speaker 3 (01:29:23):
Wow, that's fascinating. That's fascinating. So you said it was
a mix. I mean, it's like a chicken or the
egg thing. So when you go back and look at
this and you see that the numbers are there, Okay,
Is this is this deterministic? Is this just the universe

(01:29:47):
doing its thing and that's where the numbers lie, and
and that's it? And you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:29:56):
It's yeah, I understand that. I understand the question you're asking.
The best way I can answer this is to give
you Aleister Crowley's answer on this. And Aleister Crowley says
in his work he gives this system of numbers, and
what he essentially says is when you start seeing these
numbers popping up on this frequency, this is this new
age son god trying to get attention. And he's it's

(01:30:19):
this sun God, which he originally calls hair Raha, but
he says, it morphs into the goat of Mendes Baphamed.
He says that in magic and theory and practice, when
you start seeing these numbers, that is this god essentially
demanding worship and is letting you know the age of
Horse is here, the Age of Aquarius has arrived. Because
and he says this in his book, this is a

(01:30:40):
bloodthirsty monster, likes war, it likes death. Keep an eye
out for this number forty two, this grand killing number,
this grand number of the curse, because it's sort of
the best way Crowley kind of describes it as the
way I described in the book. It's the number forty
two is how this number how the Sun God kills.
That's the kill number. Is the number forty two that

(01:31:01):
will always be present surrounding these little tragedies, not little,
but surrounding these tragedies. And again what makes it so
unique is these numbers sinc with the movie and Crowley's
number sync with the Wizard of Oz, and in easy tragedies,
you will always find these little Wizard of Oz illusions
always be they will always be there, irrefutable, and that's

(01:31:23):
essentially what it is. It's it's an astrological changeover. It's
the end of the age of Pisces. And it's this
way it's it's according to Crowley, it's let it's these
numbers are letting you know, the Age of Aquarius is
here and this new son God wants its props.

Speaker 3 (01:31:36):
So it's nothing that can be reversed. There's nothing to
fix here. There's no remedy. No, all the owning in
the world is no.

Speaker 2 (01:31:50):
The question is going to become is it going to
get better or is it gonna get worse?

Speaker 3 (01:31:53):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:31:54):
And and and that's I think I think, as in
my this is me speaking here, as we move along,
I think it will start to fade off because I
think it's going to become more of accepted, you know,
like you know, it's one of these things where and
even it's funny Crowley even mentions this. He says, I
don't know what this is going to look like in
two hundred years, but he does give these numbers. He says,
this is like the starting point. He said, when you

(01:32:17):
start seeing this, this is when we're going into this
new age. So what it's going to look like two
three hundred years from now, I don't know. Crowley didn't
know and Crowley doesn't speculate on it. But no, it
can't be reversed. There's no magic you know, secure for
this or anything like that. It's for me right now
is looking at these tragedies and seeing it these numbers

(01:32:37):
pop up. That's what I'm doing right now.

Speaker 3 (01:32:39):
If it becomes the norm, then you don't have a barometer.

Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
It to extent, yeah, to an extent, you don't have
a barometer, but you will have a gauge because you
will know if this is this thing, if these numbers
are present, and if the numbers aren't there, it's not it.
And the numbers aren't present in everything. Bear in mind,
it's not everything. One of the things I can tell
you though, that is somewhat unique with this, and this

(01:33:07):
is kind of what we talked about a little bit,
is these these numbers will pop up in you know,
these tragedies, in these events, but you will also find
them the these tragedies mixing around with pop culture. So like,
if you have a tragedy happening or something along those lines,
keep an eye out for what's popular, like you know

(01:33:28):
what's going on in pop culture at that time, because
a lot of times again there will be something going
on in pop culture that reflects this curse somehow. That's
another thing that's very interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:33:41):
Give me an example of that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:44):
So one of the one of one of the examples
with that is one of the closest examples of that
is with the Beatles, with so, for example, Helter Skelter,
Judy Garland who played Oh and by the way, Judy Garland,
a Garland is a corona. By the way, it's a crown.

(01:34:06):
That's also interesting. Judy Garland when she passed in nineteen
sixty nine, on June twenty second, forty nine days later,
and if you don't know, forty nine forty nine is
seventy seven. Forty nine is seven squared. Forty nine days
after Judy Garland died in nineteen sixty nine was the
first night of Helter Skelter. And one of the things

(01:34:28):
if you look at that, if you look at Charles
Manson's full name, Charles Miles Manson, that has a value
of seventy seven using Jamatria. One of the things that
hooked Manson was the Beatles' White Album. If you look
at that, the White Album has a runtime of ninety
three minutes, and of course that's do what thou wilt
shall be the whole of the law. That's Crowley again,
and that's the number of a Wasp, which was Crowley's

(01:34:49):
guardian angel. So you can find stuff in pop culture
reflecting these tragedies and what's going on. That's very interesting
as well.

Speaker 3 (01:34:58):
What do we do with other shows and movies that
tend to do the same thing. I've got to bring
up The Simpsons, right and Back to the Future. I
didn't realize this until this weekend. I knew it, but

(01:35:21):
I had to go back and check. July third, twenty
twenty five. That was on Thursday. That's in Back to
the Future. Yeah, the setting on.

Speaker 2 (01:35:32):
The car, I can't remember. I'm going back. I just
remember it.

Speaker 3 (01:35:37):
Yeah, Yes, July third, twenty twenty five, which was last Thursday.

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
July was it thought? I thought, in fact the future
they only went ahead to twenty sixteen.

Speaker 3 (01:35:45):
No, you have to watch the movie. You got to
watch the movie. So the last scene where we're going
they don't need roads, that's July third, twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (01:35:57):
Oh, I'd have to look at that. I thought it was.
I thought it was October like eighteen, twenty fifteen or something.

Speaker 3 (01:36:02):
That's where they need to get back to because that's
where they started from.

Speaker 2 (01:36:07):
Right, I'll have to take another look at it. Yeah,
but Back in the Future has lots going in as well,
and again there's some the Wizard that's one that you
know I talk about with One of the things that
is interesting with the Wizard of Oz is how influential
it's been. And just you know, this is Crowley aside,
this is you know, the mysticism of the original movie. Aside,

(01:36:30):
back Wizard of Oz is a highly influential movie. Now, true,
some of this is Campbell's monomth, but like Back to
the Future, the first one is a retelling of the
Wizard of Oz where clearly you have Marty going to
a strange land, acting with doppelgangers of people that he
knows from his reality, only to return wake up in bed,
not to be certain of his surroundings. Of course, when

(01:36:53):
he goes back in time, the first thing he runs
into is a scarecrow, and of course that's Dorothy's first companion.
So with the Wizard of Oz, you know, with Back
to the Future, you do have like a loose retelling
of the Wizard of Oz Apocalypse now is the same
thing uh loose retelling of the Wizard of Oz starts
in a strange land. The Martin Sheen character has to
navigate this strange strange land to confront a green skinned

(01:37:16):
wizard and witch, which is of course the embodiment of
the same person this is Colonel Kurtz that he ultimately
has to go on and defeat. So you will find
the Wizard of Oz influencing a lot of films, irregardless
of Crowley and irregardless regardless of the you know, mysticism
of the movie. Anyway, Suspiria with with Susie Banyon where

(01:37:40):
she goes to a strange land interacts with a bunch
of odd ball characters to eventually go on to defeat
a wicked witch. Again loose remake of the Wizard of Oz.
So again, Wizard of Oz, highly influential movie, very good movie.
Back to the future, classic movies, very interesting. Some of
the stuf going one in there with the whole eighty

(01:38:02):
eight miles an hour at this I talk about in
the first book, you know, with a lot of the
sun references. Of course, there's some nine to eleven predictors
in there as well, which is very interesting. That's a
whole other subject matter is movies prophetic predicting things out.
That's a whole other conversation. But yeah, back to the future,

(01:38:24):
great film.

Speaker 3 (01:38:26):
Are there like The Golden Dawn and you think of
so many different are there? Are there a secret secret
societies and secret groups still running like the Golden Dawn today?

Speaker 2 (01:38:43):
Well, sure you have, of course the Freemasons. The Golden Dawn.
The original one is defunct. It's tried to reinvent itself
a couple of times. I think it might have like
a new reinvention of it, but it's not the one
that Crowley or McGregor Mathers was involved with. But certainly,
you know, Freemasonry is still very active. Odd Fellows are

(01:39:04):
very active, but mainly in California. I mean there are
some lesser groups Knights of Pitheists I think about, who
are probably not as well known. But what about them, Yeah,
I mean again, same thing. It's a more of a
modern There's there's a Rosicrucian society. I believe they're out
in California. Again, probably not really a link to the

(01:39:26):
historical Rosicrucians, because that's debatable whether they ever even existed.
The evidence suggests that it Rosicrucianism is more of a
mindset than an actual group of people. Although true, you
do have some people in history who do hold themselves
out as Rosicrusions, very few and far between. But the
historical perspective on the Rosicrucians is it's probably more of

(01:39:49):
a mindset than an actual organization. But yeah, I mean,
you know, you know, and again, the modern day Rosicrusians
probably not linked as strongly as they want to make
themselves out to believe to historical Rosicrucianism. But you know,
whatever I get, but.

Speaker 3 (01:40:06):
I used to get email from them. Come on, Jimmy, Yeah,
come come join the party.

Speaker 2 (01:40:14):
It's essentially if you look at his if you look
at the Rosicrucians from a historical perspective, the pretty much
the consensus on it is that it's more of a
mindset than it was an actual group. I mean, you're
going to be hard pressed to find any group of
people running around calling themselves like the Rosicrucians or you know, hey,
there was a Rosicrucian meeting last night or something like that.

(01:40:36):
It's more of a mindset. It's more of an enlightenment mindset.
It's the best way to describe it. I mean there
are people, I mean, they're like the Rosicrucian manifestos. They
come out in the early what is it like, the
early seventeen hundreds, and there's people who, you know, like
like publish things like, hey, you know, I've read your
you know manifestos. You know, I want to join the Rosicrucians.
I mean, big names in history. What's the one, guy Kepler.

(01:41:02):
Maybe there's a couple of big names in history who
like published tracks like, Hey, you know, I read the
Rosicrucian manuscripts. I want to join the Rosicrucians. Please reach
out to me so I can join. Oh, grenadous Carts,
that's the one I'm thinking about. But no one, no
one ever reaches out to them. I mean, people go
in search of the Rosicrucians, and they always come back

(01:41:22):
empty handed because the consent, you know, they probably never existed.

Speaker 3 (01:41:26):
But but but but wait, wait wait, I've known you
for a long time. You are a freemason, do you
you consider and you're a thirty second degree of something somewhere,
and yeah, that's why you've got all the rings and
the secret handshakes, you know all that, you're you've done
all the rituals, but you do you So you consider

(01:41:48):
the Freemasons to be a secret society.

Speaker 2 (01:41:52):
Well, technically it is technically.

Speaker 3 (01:41:55):
Although I know so many Freemasons, I'm not I have
not been inside a Freemason lodge. Yeah, right, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:42:02):
Mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I guess is
it a pure secret society? Wise? I guess it was
a pure secret society. We were never heard of it.
But is it right?

Speaker 3 (01:42:10):
Right? Yeah, that's my point.

Speaker 2 (01:42:11):
That's my point, right, I mean, is it you know,
I guess is it a society with secrets? Yeah? Okay,
maybe that's a better descriptor of it. But you know,
is it a secret society in that, like no one's
heard of it? No, of course, not everybody's heard of
the Freemasons. Skull and Bones, Uh, you know the odd Fellows. Yeah,
I mean those are all pretty well known. Do they
keep quote unquote secrets? Yeah? Probably? You know, I'm a Freemason.

(01:42:35):
I think there's secrets in there that are definitely concealed
in the rituals and things like that. So yeah, is
it a society with secrets? Sure? But is it like
a true secret society where people you know have never
heard of it. No, of course not.

Speaker 3 (01:42:48):
Now how long have you been a Freemason?

Speaker 2 (01:42:51):
So it'll be going on thirty years next year? Bingoo, Yeah,
I joined in. I joined in ninety six. Was when
I filled out my petition was in the summer of
ninety six, and I went through the process in the
fall of ninety six. And I actually didn't go through
the first ritual into January of ninety seven. So next year, yeah,

(01:43:14):
I guess it was when I started the process to
become a Freemason. So you'll be thirty years next year.

Speaker 3 (01:43:19):
Okay, here's my next question. I set you up beautifully.
I set you up beautifully, Robert set you up beautifully.
You don't have to tell me. But did you learn
a real secret?

Speaker 2 (01:43:34):
Oh? Yeah, sure really? Oh sure absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:43:37):
I mean even for you, even for you, Robert Sullivan,
where you sat back and went, well, that was some
secret shit.

Speaker 2 (01:43:45):
Like like you mean, like going through the masonical lives.

Speaker 3 (01:43:47):
I don't know. I'm not asking what the secret is.

Speaker 2 (01:43:49):
Mean, I mean, the way I would answer the question
is the best way I can answer it is like this, yes,
but it's you go through the Lodge rituals, and it's
kind of like I had gone through when I was
at Gettysburg College. I was a member of a fraternity house,
and the fraternity house that I was actually a brother
of Lamba Kai Aalfa. The guy who actually wrote the
Lambda Chai ritual was a Freemason, so he incorporated Masonic

(01:44:13):
elements into the ritual. I had already gone through. So
when I went through the Masonic ritual a few years later,
I kind of, you know, had a point of reference.
I kind of seen some of this before. That said,
it's really like when you go through the ritual, I mean,
and you're in there, you're not going to be sitting
back saying to yourself, oh, I'm learning a lot of
secret information or anything like that. That's probably true. That's

(01:44:34):
the way it was for me. It's not until like
a year or two later, where you sit down and
read people like Albert Pike or Manly p Hall, that's
when you will That's when kind of you'll say to yourself, oh, okay,
now I see what this is about. Now I see
what this is encoding. Now I see the secret that
this thing is trying to unveil to me. That's kind
of for me at least when you know the bells

(01:44:56):
went off essentially was like a year or two after
I had joined it, reading Manly p Hall or Albert
Pike or Albert Mackie, people like that, and you say, oh, okay,
now I see what this thing is encoding. That was
at least the way it worked for me.

Speaker 3 (01:45:11):
I think society and I understand why when you see
a film like Eyes Wide Shut, or even like Rosemary's Baby,
right where you have this this thing going on with
the group of people, this secret thing that that's automatically
equated to the Freemasons. Like we we see the we

(01:45:35):
see the image of Freemasons, we see the marketing of it,
but then we automatically jump to but the real stuff
is twisted. Why is that?

Speaker 2 (01:45:48):
Well, I guess, I guess because there's so many conspiracies
about it, and some of it is rooted in truth.
I mean, it is, you know, but I mean again,
it's like one of those things where you know no one,
you know it's root in truth, but like you just
can't get rid of it. I mean, it's like you know,
you can't unring a bell. You know, there will always
be the Illuminati. There will always be the William Morgan affair.

(01:46:11):
I mean, you know, you always have like the sacred
architecture and the alignments and things like that, and people
want to see it as evidence of this vast conspiracy,
where it was really just, you know, the Freemasons who
founded this country were just using Masonic philosophies from the Lodge,
both the Blue Lodge and the High Degree to you know,
you know, craft a nation around. So that's essentially where

(01:46:34):
it came from. But yeah, I mean I certainly understand it.
I mean, believe me, I get it. You know, you know,
I've been involved with it for thirty years. I mean,
believe me, I understand why people are suspicious of it.
I mean there's a lot of Masonic symbolism out there,
especially in this country. I mean you'll find it all
over the place.

Speaker 3 (01:46:51):
It's everywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:46:53):
Everywhere. I mean everywhere, right, I mean it's everywhere. And again,
it was really, at least from the perspective that I've
researched it from, it was more of a case of
let's create a nation around Masonic symbols and Masonic philosophies.
I guess the real negative, I guess if you want
to put like ascribe a negative aspect to it. Was

(01:47:13):
there was no transparency with it. It was just done.
You know, it was like, hey, let's put this to
the voter, let's you know, run this by the people.
They just went ahead and did it. And I think
that's where a lot of the suspicion comes from. But yeah,
I mean, you know, you're absolutely correct. I mean, you know,
if you look look around, yeah, you're going to see
Masonic logos and things and symbols and philosophies, especially in

(01:47:36):
the context of this country. Yeah, all over the place now.

Speaker 3 (01:47:39):
And then when you look at the DNA of Freemasons
and the genealogy and you start to trace this stuff back,
you know, you've got the ties with the Knights Templar
all the way through the Mediterranean, Malta, Italy, Portugal, going
back into Israel and the possessor of the Biblical secrets

(01:48:05):
and knowledge and possibly even the Holy Grail itself. That's
that's if just that much of it is true, then yeah,
the Freemasons are in possession of real knowledge and real secrets.

Speaker 2 (01:48:23):
It depends, it depends who you want to believe, because
there's like convert there's different takes on all this. When
masonry comes onto the scene in seventeen seventeen, there's a
guy by the name of James Anderson who writes the constitutions,
and he gives you this legendary history of it. And
the legendary history goes back to what you're talking about,

(01:48:45):
goes back to like the Holy Land, you know, even
goes back to the Garden of Eden, for God's sakes,
and it goes into like what you're talking about, like
how the Egyptians with the pyramid and the measurement of
the flooding and the Nile. Yeah, geometry comes from and
that's that's kind of like the one history of it.
But then you have the other history which comes along
years later, and this is the Andrew Michael, the Chevalier

(01:49:07):
Ramsey take on the history of Freemasons, where he says, essentially, yeah,
you know what Anderson talked about with the geometry in
the building, I'm not really going to argue that that's true,
he says. But he says, and this is where you
have this split. He says, Freemasonry it comes from not
really the Bible or the Garden of Eden or anything

(01:49:29):
like that. It comes from the Knights Templar, and it's
this free masonry owes its origins to this Roman Catholic
group of warrior monks who when they were in the
Holy Land discovered some sort of cabalistic wisdom. And in
this wisdom is sacred geometry, these mathematical secrets of the universe,

(01:49:49):
these divine golden ratios, and that's you know, they bring
it back to Europe and this is part of the
secrets of freemasonry. So you do have this split where
it's you have the one history of Ramsey and then
you have the one history of Anderson. Which one you
want to believe or both of them are neither, that's
up to you. But again, you know, it's really when

(01:50:10):
you get into this Ramsey take on it with the
Knights Templar, that's where you get into this whole notion
of you know, did the pre Mason or did the
Knights Templar have this secret wisdom? What did they find
in the Holy Land? Because and again this is something
I talk about, and this is where he goes back
to my first book, is the high Degrees of Masonry.
Especially this one degree seems to be hinting at this

(01:50:33):
that even maybe hinting is not the right word, maybe
implying it or suggesting it out right that when the
templars were in the Holy Land, they came into contact
with or found something on the Temple mount. What that
is is a mystery, Like you said, Holy Grail, Ark
of the Covenant, secret wisdom. That is probably the best explanation.

(01:50:53):
And they brought this back to Europe, and of course
you know the rest of the story, they took it
to Scotland and this is where they apparently hit it there.
But then of course they allegedly and this is where
you gets into a bit of a stretch. Was one
of the theories is this is one of the things
that's hidden at Oak Island, Is this nice templar treasure
or something. If you look at the Masonic ritual and

(01:51:14):
you look at the high degree rituals, there's one rich
one in particular. This is what I wrote my first
book about, called the Royal Arch of Vinoch that is
supposed to be encoding this lost history. And if you
look at it, it's very peculiar because a lot of
the symbolism and a lot of the philosophies, especially around
the founding of this country comes out of that high
degree ceremonial and you begin saying to yourself, at least

(01:51:37):
I did, hmm, you know, maybe there is really something
to this, and that seems to be the case. But
it is a little speculation, but there is more, There
is some there there with this, If that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (01:51:49):
I think the freemason spilt the pyramids and see and
here's the thing, I'm joking. That was a bad that
was a bad joke.

Speaker 2 (01:51:57):
Except there's true, there's geometry involved.

Speaker 3 (01:52:01):
Except exactly except those traditions may just maybe uh Freemason's
pre date even the Gisa plateau, and that these ideas
of engineering and math and the ability to quarry and

(01:52:23):
organize and build a society, all these ideas are very
very ancient. And that that DNA, if you will, just
flowed through Egypt and Mesopotamia and up into your and
just maybe those are the origins of freemasonry. It's it's

(01:52:44):
not a modern thing. That it goes back millennia and
millennia and millennia. That's that's my take, And I don't
I don't think I'm far off.

Speaker 2 (01:52:52):
No, I I think I mean that's that's what the
legendary histories of masonry, say, I mean, the only thing
is you know, I there's truth that. I mean, there's
clearly truth to that. I mean, now, were the Egyptians
calling themselves Freemasons?

Speaker 3 (01:53:05):
No, probably no, no.

Speaker 2 (01:53:06):
But they were using many Hall mainly. Hall wrote a
book about this. How a lot of the Egyptian iconography
and symbolism, and especially when you get into the Osirian cycle,
that is without question incorporated into modern freemasonry. I mean,
you will find a lot of Egyptian themes in modern

(01:53:28):
freemasonry that is irrefutable.

Speaker 3 (01:53:30):
Yeah, it's on the outside of every building. Actually yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:53:34):
Mean, I mean the eye and the triangle hovering over
the unfinished pyramid. But if you look at the if
you look at the Masonic ritual, especially the one in
the Blue Lodge, that is a complete, from start to finish,
retelling of the mysteries of Osiris, with Isis, with Horus,
the death, the resurrection, All of that comes from that
Osirian mystery religion.

Speaker 3 (01:53:56):
I just love this conversation tonight, Robert, Thank you so much.
Where can everybody follow what you're doing?

Speaker 2 (01:54:02):
Well? Thank you Jimmy for having me on Fade to Black.
This is my fourth appearance, and I look forward to
my fifth one already. Absolutely, when the next book comes out,
we'll definitely get into that, and we'll definitely get into
more of the Wizard of Oz Death Curse. Yeah. If
you're interested in me and just want to find out
more information about me, go to my website. It's my name.
My name is Robert W. Sullivan. Fo My website is Www.

(01:54:24):
Robert W. Sullivan four. That's the number four, Robert wsullivanfor
dot com. There's information about me, information about shows I'm
going to be on. Links to buy my books. They're
on all the major sites, Amazon, Barnes, and Noble Books
a million. They're in the print edition if you want it.
You can get the e book or the kindle if
you want that. Again, go to my website. It's very

(01:54:45):
easy to navigate. Www. Robert Wsullivan dot com. Got ww
Robert W. Sullivan for dot Com.

Speaker 3 (01:54:52):
I'm sorry, I got an idea for a T shirt.
Go ahead, Wizard of Oz Death Curse. What do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:55:00):
Yeah, I mean, I mean I would be caref to
a pair.

Speaker 3 (01:55:02):
Of a pair of ruby slippers on the bottom.

Speaker 2 (01:55:05):
Well, I would be careful of that because you don't
want to piss this thing off. I don't think yeah
you know, yeah you know. Listen, you gotta be a
little careful with this thing.

Speaker 3 (01:55:15):
Robert, you're the best man. It's good to see you again,
and thank you so much. I do look forward to
our next conversation. We've been doing this now for twelve
thirteen years.

Speaker 2 (01:55:25):
You're the best episode, episode ninety to whatever. This one
is twenty one seventy six. We missed twenty one seventy
seven by one, but we did get it on on
July seventh, which is seventy seven, so that's good.

Speaker 3 (01:55:35):
Wow, you're nuts. Thank you, Robert. Have a great time,
my friend. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:55:42):
Okay, have a good one, you too.

Speaker 3 (01:55:44):
Perfect night on the show, everybody. Thank you so much, Robert.
I love learning. Tonight was full learning from top to bottom.
And so tomorrow night is our ama Tomorrow night, so
get ready for that. And what was I going to say? Oh,

(01:56:04):
Wednesday night, we have Mike Ricksecker here. We're going to
be doing portals in Atlantis. No show. On Thursday night,
I will be out taping more episodes of Beyond Belief.
So tomorrow night's aur ama aja. Until then, all I've
got is go Beckley Teppe. Bade to Black is produced

(01:56:30):
by Hilton J. Palm, Renee Newman and Michelle Free. Special
thanks to Bill, Jock Dex, Jessica Dennis and Kevin Webmaster
is Drew the Geek. Music by Doug Albridge. Intro Spaceboy.
Aid to Black is produced by kJ c R for

(01:56:51):
the Game Changer Network. This broadcast is owned and copyrighted
in twenty twenty four by Fade to Black and the
Game Changer Networking. It cannot be rebroadcast, downloaded, copied, or
used anywhere in the known universe without written permission from
Faye to Black or the Game Changer Network. I'm your host,
Jimmy Church Go Beckley, Teppy,