FADE to BLACK host: Jimmy Church guest: Jason McLean

Tonight, author and researcher Jason McLean joins us to talk about the Bigfoot and Goat Men of Texas!!!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:29):
This Hope Radio for the Nassis headline of US July eighth,
nineteen forty seven. The Audi Air Force has an outstart
applying the Hearty found and there's now in the possession
of the adair with the game and we changed the
game Change Chang. I occasionally think how quickly our difference

(00:49):
is worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien
threat from outside this work. This is Dave to Black.
It's your host, Jimmy Church on the Game Changer Radio Network.

(01:10):
Good evening, Fade to Black. How you doing today is Thursday,
September fourth, two thoy and twenty five. I'm your host,
Jimmy Church. Let's do this man. All right, kitties, here
we go. We're wrapping up another week here on Fade
to Black. They're all great this week, no exception. Monday night,

(01:30):
Christopher Dunn was here talking about the Great Pyramid and
everything that is going down right now underneath Giza, underneath Egypt.
Tuesday night, George Haas was here. We talked about what's
on Mars. Last night. An amazing conversation with best selling
author Rebecca Pittman her two most favorite haunted cases here

(01:54):
in the United States and tonight, Jason McLean joins us,
we're gonna be talking about may not know about this
bigfoot and goat men in Texas. Yeah, all of that
and much more tonight with Jason. I want to remind
everybody that I do have six events coming up in

(02:14):
addition to everything else that I am doing in twenty
twenty six. Conscious Life Expo February twentyth through the twenty
third at the Lax Hilton, followed by the Contact Modalities
Expo May first through the third, twenty twenty sixth in Delavan,
Wisconsin at the Delavan Lake Resort. It's a beautiful resort.
Come back from that for Contacting the Desert May twenty

(02:36):
eight through June first, twenty twenty six. Tickets on sale
this Thanksgiving Day. Then right after that I had to
Peru for the INCA Celebration of the Sun with Brian Forrester.
That is June twenty third through July one, twenty twenty six.
Come back from that and head over to the UK
for the Monty Python Tour of Scotland and that is

(03:01):
August first through the ninth, twenty twenty six. Come back
from that and turn around and go back to Peru.
But this time it's Peru and Easter Island and that's
November of twenty twenty six with Brian Forrester and Hidden
Inca Tours. Yeah, I've got a busy, busy twenty twenty six. Well,
it's busy every year for sure. But yeah, I decided

(03:23):
to just clear things out for the rest of twenty
twenty five so I can just focus on Beyond Belief.
And I do want to give everybody the heads up.
No show next Thursday. We'll have shows Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.
Of course, no show next Thursday because I will be
filming Beyond Belief, taping, taping, shooting. What is correct. We

(03:49):
don't shoot on videotape, we don't shoot on film. We
shoot on hard drives.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
So what do we.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Not even hard drives? Well, yeah, it's even a better point.
We shoot on computers. Very very strange. I got to
figure out I'm going to come up with something new.
I'm going to come up with something new. I guess
we can say shooting, we are shooting. Even that today
sounds funky, but there you go. Today is my Thursday,

(04:22):
it is today, is my Friday, it is your Thursday.
I've got a very very busy weekend coming up, and
I've got to get straight back to work. What I
am doing this weekend, I'll let you know next week.
But I've got a lot of fun things that are
planned for this weekend. So yeah, am I off? No,

(04:44):
I'm never off? I never am. Like tonight, here we go,
Jason McLean is here. We're talking about Bigfoot and goatman
and other paranormal stuff in and around Texas and what
is going on with that? This is what he does.
He's I'm Texas. He lives in the Dallas area. We
were just talking about that before the show. And what

(05:08):
is it that is going on? What are people seeing?
Where do they live? How did they evade us and
avoid us? What is real? What is not? He's an author,
he's an illustrator. And check this out. I'm going to
say this a few times tonight. He's a biblical paranormal researcher.
Now what is that? That's my opening question tonight. You

(05:32):
already know what I'm going to do. You can read
my mind. But this is what he does, all right.
So the combination of all of that, how did they
work together? Archaeology and cryptozoology, euphology, and astronomy and the Bible. Yeah,
we're gonna do all of that tonight, much more. I
would like to welcome, for the first time to fade
the black Jason McLean and he's right there, Jason. What's

(05:55):
going on? Man?

Speaker 2 (05:57):
Just normal day in paradise down here, Jimmy pleasure to
be here, so it's an honor.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, well, it's great to have you. And you already
know what my opening question is, so we'll get to
that in a second, Jason, But first you get the
first time guest disclaimer that you have to accept, So
let's get that out of the way. The disclaimer is this, Jason,
it's just doing, just doing me, sitting on my couch,
having a conversation as friends. And where that conversation starts,

(06:24):
it starts where it ends, it ends. But we're gonna
end as friends. Okay. Now you have to accept so
we can move on. Okay. Is that you accepted? Oh?

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Absolutely, no, absolutely? All right, all right, now the question
is are we friends with benefits? Though?

Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah, I know that wasn't biblical. That wasn't that was
just a question that wasn't biblical. What is a biblical
paranormal researcher?

Speaker 2 (06:54):
It is specifically to get you to ask that question.
That's that's why the ultimately the point is that we
when we approach anything from life right, we have to
a sort of state what our where, what our paradigms are,
and explore from from everyone comes to the universe of biases,
whether we like it or not, but really needs to

(07:17):
get people asked a question because people would say, well,
what does the Bible have to do with any of this? Well,
I would suggest that if there that if the if
you take the story of in the narrative of the
Bible seriously and again, what does that mean? Long conversation,
but if you at least take it seriously, then you
would expect the world to look a particular way, right,

(07:39):
I would suggest that what we actually see in the
world is what you would expect if the if the
narrative is true. Again, with science, you create, you create
your theory and you put it into tests and say, well,
what do we actually see? Not what we're told that
we it should be, but what do we actually see
when you test something? Right? For example, if I want

(08:01):
to prove gravity, I should be able to drop this pin,
my favorite pin, by the way, it has a little
level in it and tools. It's awesome, But I should
people drop this pin and it should fall thirty two
feet per second per second. Right, It's that easy. Every
time I test, I do it. If every third drop
it fell faster or slower, then I got a problem, right,

(08:26):
just that easy. I would suggest things that fall into
the paranormal crpey zoology specifically, and all of these other
venues forbid in archaeology. They are. The reason they are
so controversial is that they are particularly cryptids are the
living and just other examples of the fact that the

(08:46):
narrative that we are told is wrong, that it does
not actually match up with reality, with what we are experiencing,
what we are living in the day today, and for
less and again, here's the thing. You go back one hundred,
twenty hundred and thirty years, most of what we're discussing
right now, no one would ba deny it was commonplace
to discuss creatures, monsters, paranormal entities. It's only been within

(09:11):
the last hundred years that it was no longer acceptable
to have these conversations. Right, And the problem is the
reason that paradigm now is breaking down is because people
are talking to one another. You know, for all of
the ills of the Internet, one of the great advantages
is we can talk and say, hey, we're seeing things

(09:33):
that we're not supposed to be seeing, and that allows
us to say, okay, well, that means the narrative is wrong,
because we're all seeing the same thing. My encounter I
didn't tell anybody for twenty years because I couldn't believe
that I saw it, because I'd be like, well, that's
something that happens in far off places, right, exotic places,

(09:54):
and certainly not here. But as soon as I started looking,
I found and once I sort of realized okay, I
did see what I saw and I started looking, it
didn't take me long to find people who were confirming
what I had seen, but they all have the exact
same story. I didn't want to be the crazy person
who saw this thing. So again, going back to your question,

(10:15):
why it's so that people ask what does the Bible
have to do with any of this? I would suggest
that the narrative of the Bible, the story that it
is telling is would predict the world that we're actually seeing.
And if that's the case, if the beginning of the
book is true and the end of the book is true,
it's a lot of my work's actually as schatology as well.
Then that middle part where we all live. That matters

(10:36):
to us, It matters to every human being, every living soul,
it matters, and ultimately that means we all matter. We
are not aimless matter that just happens to be here.
We're not cattle to be abused. We have transcendental value
and are of ultimate value. And that's that's and that's

(10:58):
why I'm here, It's why I do what I do.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
That's a really really really really good and interesting way
to look at it. And you bring up two points,
so I'm gonna address both of these really quick. The
Internet today obviously as evolved and it's different. So if

(11:21):
you go back to the old version of YouTube, before
live streaming and these influencers and whatever, But if you
go before that YouTube was primarily conspiracy videos of the

(11:42):
craziest stuff, whether it was UFOs or Bigfoot or Alien
Star Wars, conspiracy Kennedy whatever, Right, it was all there,
including way before the Da Vinci. Oh, the the YouTube

(12:03):
was full of Rene las Chateau and the Knights Templar.
All right, okay, and I love that stuff, but I
didn't buy into it. I enjoyed it as entertainment. If
every conspiracy video from old YouTube was true, holy crap,

(12:26):
we got it, We got it really good. Yeah, but
it was fun.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Okay, it was fun.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Today people take conspiracies one hundred percent seriously and they
buy into it blindly. It's lemmings to the sea. So
we have that issue with today and these ideas. But
then you throw the Bible into the mix, and we've
got the same issue there. And the issue is this,

(12:54):
if you take the Bible as to what it is, everything,
everything that we talk about today was already written in
the Bible two thousand plus years ago, right yep, and
is clearly all there. But you can't believe or understand

(13:19):
or think about ghost UFOs et and strange things in
the sky and stuff living in the heavens that are
the universe. It's really bizarre. And you have the same
right you know, you have the same problem on both
sides if you just back up and go, look, we

(13:39):
are essentially talking about the same things, different names, different stories,
lots of metaphor, but it's all the same stuff, isn't it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
I actually had a conversation with a friend of mine
years ago, again going back to old school YouTube, right,
and we were talking. He goes, yeah, I just can't
buy into the idea of angels. And this was a
guy who is hardcore euthology, and I said, well, hold on,
you believe. And this is back before people knew what
the word interdimensionality was unless you watched Star Trek, right, right.
I mean this is old school before it became before

(14:15):
Grushing all them brought this into the into the mainstream.
I says, hold on, hold up, you believe that there
are extraterrestrials that are comprised of energy that originate in
another dimension? Right. He goes, oh, absolutely, Okay, great, how
would you describe an angel?

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Exactly?

Speaker 2 (14:32):
And that's the thing, right, It's this is if you
were to put me and Giorgio Suclos at a table,
we would agree on the following sentence. The phenomena that
we referred to as UFOs again barring any governmental things, right,
the truly bizarre, the truly unique and uh sort of

(14:56):
out of out of norm ufology material. The stuff that
we're seeing today is the same thing that we were
that they were calling. We're calling UFOs and aliens to
day is what they were calling alien or angels and
gods yesterday. Right. We would completely agree on that on
that statement. Where we would disagree is he would say, well,

(15:18):
we understand them better now, and I would say no,
I think we had a better peg on it back
in the day. Right, And there's a and then the
conversation would have to revolve around why. But the simple
fact of the matter is there is a lot of
this conversation in conflict is actually left over from the
late eighteen hundreds with what was what was called the

(15:39):
conflict thesis, right, that religion and science were opposed. And
this was literally a I mean we would call it
a si op now, right, This was design and perpetuate
to say no, no, no, we need to get religion
out of these things, and we need to go towards
exclusively an atheist materialist worldview, and anything that runs a

(16:00):
foul of that worldview has to be it has to
be assuwed. It's literally called the conflict thesis. The problem
is historically it's an act. It doesn't work. It's literally
the particularly in the West, it was the Catholic Church
and other religious organizations that created modern science and up
it's been very very recent that these two that these
things were reversed or separated. Almost all of the great

(16:22):
universities were religious institutions. It was people pursued science because,
particularly in the West, Christianity led had the belief in
understanding that God, you know, was an intelligent and organized,
rational being and wanted us to understand him through his creation.
It's a it's called it's only called the two Books theory.

(16:44):
That you have the Bible of Holy Scriptures, that which
is revealed, but then you also have the Book of Nature,
which is that God reveals himself through nature. This has
been that this is literally a two thousand year old
Christian belief, but it's only been last one hundred and
fifty years that there was this push and drive to
separate those two. And what's happening now is people are

(17:04):
realizing you can't separate this right, that the paradigm has
been dominant for last century and a half is not
working anymore. It can't work anymore. We have to understand that, hey,
there's more going on here. We can't deny that anymore.
So now we're having I would think far more productive conversations.

(17:26):
But like you said, going back to the old school
conspiracy theory YouTube videos. There's a lot of conspiracy YouTube
stuff out there about the Bible, about everything else. But
what's happening is that they're in that conversation, in that conflict.
There are voices that are coming saying no, no, no,
Let's actually look at the history. Let's look at the
real documents, Let's look at the real conversations as being had,

(17:48):
Let's look at the real science behind a lot of this.
We all know that a lot of this stuff is
unfortunately what's been put out in the mainstream and sort
of accepted is false or has been overblown or is
it omits the other side of that conversation very deliberately
to curate a society that's falling apart. It can't stand

(18:08):
under its own weight. And so now that conversation is happening,
and I'm just glad to be you know, do you
go to that conversation?

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Do you go to church? Oh?

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Okay? Can you go to church? I'm so glad you
said absolutely. Can you go to church and talk about Bigfoot?
So here's the thing, yes or no question and then
answer then answer.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah, okay, So yeah, let me ask.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
I was like, oh, no, my favorite pen you got
struck by lightning.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
See I got struck by lightning. Yeah, So here's the
thing you can't I will say, yes, here's the yes.
But here's the here's the furthest of this. It's a
very recent change I and it really depends very much
on the church. Because you're right again, I would suggest

(18:59):
that the church which bought into the conflict thesis about
one hundred years ago. And so most mainstream churches says, Okay,
we don't want anything to do with the weird because
we don't want I see it this way. We don't
want to look crazy to the people who believe that
the universe blew up spontaneously on a Tuesday, and we're
all here by accident, Like, we don't want to look
crazy to those people, so we don't want to scare

(19:19):
them off, so we won't talk about the weird things.
And I'm like, but they're encountering the weird things too.
We're all encountering the weird things, and the weird things
speak to the fact that what we have written down
is accurate. In fact, one of my big complaints is
you claim to believe in a supernatural being that supernaturally
created the universe and has supernaturally told us about his existence,

(19:42):
sent his son to live, die, and resurrect, and gave
us this book Supernaturally, which records all of his supernatural miracles.
But you don't want to talk about the supernatural, and
unfortunately that doesn't mean the weird things in life. So
trust me, I'm the first one to yell at at
church goers like, no, you've got to embrace this.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
Unfortunately, I think in some instances it's gone like that
pendulum swung too far. We're now the only thing they
talk about is the nephilene, and yeah, to watch who
wha whoa, Like slow your role. That's important, it really
really is. But don't make it like that's not the

(20:21):
only thing. I literally did a video called the Nephilene.
Aren't that important? Like it's they are critical. I think
they are. I think you're like if you once you
plug that in, there a lot of things make sense.
But it's like that's not the whole of everything at all.
It's a small piece, but it's an important piece. I'm
all I'm about on anything, right. It's because I grew

(20:41):
up as I'm the son of a mechanic. I grew
up in a shop. Everything just needs to be where
it belongs, right, because if you put the engine where
the transmission is, your car ain't gonna run, right. I
just think everything needs to be where it's supposed to
be so that everything can move the way and you
can get a sense of what's going on. The World's

(21:01):
hard enough, right, There's enough chaos and evil and mystery
in the world. We don't need to make it harder
by getting things all jacked up. We need the freedom
to try and feel around and see what's going on
and how to place it there. But also don't go
out of your way to make the one thing the
whole right. So I just want to put everything in

(21:25):
its place so we can have a better, more constructive conversation,
because if we don't, we're not going to figure any
of this out. And I'd like to figure some of
it out, at.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Least up until I'm going to freak my audience out.
Right now, I'm not a biblical scholar, but I have
a twisted brain, all right. So check this out in
my favorite kind, Yeah, check this out. I love your headshot.
By the way, is this one hundred until one hundred

(21:57):
and fifty years ago, No, No, one hundred and fifty
years ago. A priest and biblical scholar calculated with the
Bible when God created the Earth, and he comes up
with four thousand and five BC, right, six thousand years ago.

(22:19):
And he comes up with that that was one hundred
fifty years ago, one hundred years ago, one hundred years
we're talking about Einstein nuclear atoms. Things were kicking off.
Equals mc square one hundred years ago. Another priest and
biblical scholar who was I had a side gig as

(22:40):
a mathematician and a scientist, calculates it to the day,
all right, So he goes back and he takes a
look at it. I forget what the date was, but
it was like October tenth.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
Right, yeah, I think, yeah, it's actually very close to
my birthday.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
Mine's October tenth. Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know, the same
right on happy Birthday coming up. So two, I mean
down to I think it was like six a m. Right.
He worked it out like that. Now, up until one
hundred years ago, that was still the accepted thing on

(23:23):
planet Earth. There was no origin story to the Big
Bang or the universe or or anything out So we
we you know, we didn't understand anything, and we still
thought until nineteen ninety five that Earth was the that
was it. We were the only star with planets out there.

(23:45):
We didn't have proof of anything else. And now, and
the reason why I bring that up, that foundation up
until one hundred years ago, that's how people were raised.
And getting that off of that foundation, you can't explain
reason into them. Reason only cements, you know, their position.

(24:11):
So to swing off of this, it's going to take
some time. I've got friends, I have friends, friends that
I love and adore that say dinosaurs were created by
God to throw off the non believers, right, Yeah, you know,
I love them. I love them. I love them. Yeah.

(24:31):
And we argue about it all the time and debate
it with a smile, you know, But there's nothing I
can say. They listen to this show, but that doesn't
change their their opinion.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
It's bizarre, right, Well, and again, it's like anything else, right,
Most most people make their decisions and come to their
conclusions not based off of data. And this is every
side of any conversation you want to have, right. The
vast majority of people don't actually reason their way to
can cclusion and they start with the conclusion and then
reason their way out of it. And that's that's most

(25:05):
people on virtually every topic, right, doesn't matter what's your
favorite serial, politics, religion, it doesn't matter. That's just how
people are. A couple of nuances though, is people did
believe in deep time prior to the last hundred years.
Like that's again there's a lot of just some quick
little nuances and the extra calculation has been done for centuries.

(25:28):
But what I will say is this, the masoretic text
leaves off about seven hundred years that we find in
the septuagen and there's reason to think the septuagent probably
is a better dating system. However, beyond all of that,
there is a conversation that's had and again that this
is the problem where scholarship, particularly in biblical scholarship, does
not really make it to the mainstream. And it's I

(25:51):
had a conversation with people like, well, where's all the
secret knowledge? And like, the real problem isn't some secret
torture dungeon under some church ers, some government agency somewhere.
It's a paywall. That's where you want to know where
the secrets are. It is behind a paywall, because that's
where the you know, that's where academia puts all of
their all of their papers. Nice said, thank you, so

(26:12):
I appreciate it. I worked that one out for a while.
But the simple fact of the matter is, when we're
looking at a lot of these ancient texts, they were
looking at things differently, right. They weren't necessarily trying to say,
here's how we create a timeline that you can go
back and date things by. They weren't really trying to
do that. There was a different narrative happening. So you know,
the earth, so things happening maybe deeper in time than

(26:36):
we than we would do if we were just to
use the raw numbers. Is probably not the like that
shouldn't be a problem for anyone, because really a lot
of these things are we miss culturally. I really recommend
a lot of Michael Heeiser's work on this, the late
doctor Michael Heiser. He was a submiticist. But a lot

(26:56):
of dates are symbolic because if you look at the time,
at the dates, a lot of this is very very different.
Like I said, the subtugen gives you like an extra
seven hundred and fifty years, that's right, versus this. However,
what the one caveat I would throw in there, though,
is our dating methods are and sort of the assumptions
that we've had for a lot of this deep time

(27:18):
is proving pretty sketchy at best. We can hold off
on the on the cosmic stuff, right, something hundreds of
millions of light years away. Let's put that to the
side for a moment. The things that we can actually test, right,
because I think we should be able to do carbon
fourteen dating on just about anything that was alive.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Right.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
The problem is we're doing carbon fourteen dating on dinosaur
bones and the soft tissue within it, and we are
getting thousands of years on that. I would suggest the
bigger problem is we have fossils at all for a
lot of this stuff because the only thing we know,

(28:01):
again things that we can test and observe, the only
thing that creates fossils is water is mineralized water, right,
And one of the uh, one of the big issues
I have is why do we have trackways? When was
the last time you took a walk on the beach
or you walked in the creek and your footprints were

(28:22):
turned to stone and they weren't just washed away, after
the after the next rain. Simple facts as no one
watching this, not me, No one's trackway is ever you
know walking on the beach has ever turned to stone.
A lot of these animals. The reason we can have
soft tissue in them, the reason we have soft tissue

(28:43):
that's been mineralized as well and preserved like a statue
like the Ankylo source where you can just see the
whole thing we have.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
I'm gonna jump in. I'm gonna jump in. I have
I do have to stop you if they if they
were walking in dirt or sand or us No, that
stuff washes away footprints in clay with minerals in it.
That's a holy, holy different. I just said holy. I

(29:13):
just said holy. There's a wholly different situation. It is.
And it dies, dries out in a day under the
baking sun, and one thing turns into another, and that
is rock before you know it. And there are plays,
there are clay artifacts today. I have some, yes, that

(29:36):
are five thousand years old and they were never fired
in a kiln. Oh absolutely, Okay, So so that's that's
the that's the difference there. So but but continue, yeah,
but so let me ask you so again that's a
really great caveat right. The thing is, though, those footprints

(30:01):
that were left in like we have nothing but clay
up here in North Texas right where we live on
a giant limestone slab, and then black clay, and then
it's red clay up north right.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
The problem is they're still washed away by the next rain.
It doesn't the clay in the ground is never going
to harden the way. And again, I know you're absolutely
was never.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
You're absolutely right we're talking about because if it was
just a situation there were all ancient footprints turned into fossils,
we would have bazillions of them. You know how many
we have on this planet. You can count them on
one hand. Okay, it's a very very rare situation. But

(30:43):
in those rare situations where the clay hit the sun
and then it was arid for the next ten years
and they went through a drought whatever it could be,
then magically those footprints were preserved. But the other part
the carbon dating. And I've had a lot of biblical
people on this show discussing this with me, and the

(31:05):
contamination of other stuff that is there, and there's more
accurate ways to measure this and these dates are coming
back at three thousand years instead of you know, seventy
five million. I get that, But it's the fossils. The
majority of fossils that we find that are under layers

(31:26):
of sedation, and you can measure that, and you can
go back fifty seventy five one hundred, four hundred million
years and find out a better accurate date. You don't
have to carbon date any of that. You're measuring it
through other things. And you've also got layers of radiation
volcanic ash that all of this stuff can be timed

(31:50):
with celestial events. So there's there's accurate things that support that,
I mean that would support for me, uh to keep
me from going crazy.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Well, so yeah, and I and I get where you're
coming from. Here's my problem with that though. The issue
is particularly with most dinosaur bones are actually found on
the surface. They're not found you know, they're not found
in quarries per se. They are found in quarries, don't
get me wrong, but most of our big fines are
literally they find dinosaur bones on the top of this,

(32:24):
on the top of the of the surface of the
of the of the of the matrix that it was
fossilized in now. One of the issues though with stratigraphy
is a lot of this is based on assumption. There
is a there's a paradigm as to how that stratigraphy
was laid down that it does take millions of years
for that each layer represents so many tens of thousands

(32:47):
of years of deposits. The problem is that is very
much a paradigm that's not necessarily something that we can prove.
And the issue this goes back to the issue of
how did they get fossilized in the first place. And
I don't necessarily know that the carbon fourteen dating is
in itself accurate for any of these really anything over

(33:08):
two thousand years. After about three it really gets it
starts getting sketchy. But the problem is we shouldn't find
carbon fourteen at all. We shouldn't find carbon fourteen in coal,
which we do pretty regularly. And this isn't some super
secret thing again the paywall, right, the carbon fourteen experts
have their own journal, you know, like everybody had. Every

(33:30):
scientific endeavor has its own journal. Right, They've talked about this.
Carbon fourteen is still found in diamonds, it's found in coal,
and simple fact of matters whether if you can if
there is carbon fourteen in the soft tissue that's been
preserved in dinosaur bones. That's a problem in of itself
because no matter how far you push out carbon fourteen,

(33:50):
because carbon fourteen after fifty thousand years is basically gone.
It's the half life only gets you about that far.
The same thing with any organic material. We know the
decay rate of organic material DNA, any kind of soft tissue.
You can double it, triple it, push it out as
far as you can. The most you're ever going to

(34:11):
get in the optimal situation is about a million years.
My issue is, well, where do we get the other
sixty four million or one hundred and nineteen million. For
some of these triceratops there should be zero organic material
left at all, much less carbon fourteen. And this goes
back to my original point. There are in order to

(34:33):
have footprints fossilized, because again it's not just that it's
in play, it's stone. In order to have fossilize that
anything fossilized, it requires heavily mineralized water. The number one
the most common fossil in the world are aquatic fossils,
right marine fossils there everywhere, particularly here in Texas. Like

(34:55):
we used to be water, like we used to be
under a c and then avenge, I guess the water realized,
oh crap, this is Texas. I'm not supposed to be here,
and just left because trust me, water does not like
to be in Texas. But what we have with a
lot of these fossils, particularly fish, is we have whole
schools of fish that looks like someone just went your fossils. Now.

(35:18):
We have fossils of fish eating other fish, like in
the process of eating. We have marine reptiles giving birth
and the and the infant is partially out and it's
still immediately frozen. A lot of stuff like that in
China too as well. Yeah, yeah, oh absolutely, yeah. And
so yeah, we have we have dinosaurs that we're supposed
that we're essentially fighting each other and they're fossilized in

(35:41):
that event. All again, the dates, I'm actually a little
agnostic on. I don't think we have enough data, much
less honest data to come to a conclusion as to
when these things occurred. What I do know is the
story of the Bible is that there was a perfect world. First,
it was destroyed in a cataclys in, a water based
cataclysmic event that reshapes everything that we know, and everything

(36:05):
that survives is a lesser version of what was, of
what came before. It's a smaller version of whatever could
be saved.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
I've never heard this story. What is this story called? Every?
But every every culture has got that story too.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Every culture has that story, and the simple fact matters. Again.
I just I'm again, I'm the son of the mechanic.
I like, I like easy things. I like just work
it out, Like what's the what's the sort of obvious kiss?
You know, kiss method? Keep it simple? Stupid? If things
were to be, if you, if everything was in a
perfect world and lived longer, what would you expect to

(36:42):
find larger, more robust animals and probably humans as well.
You would expect things to live longer, that would have
denser bones, much larger, And then you'd expect everything after
this radically changed world where things don't live as long,
to be smaller, more child right, far less or more
grass style than what came before.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
So how does bigfoot? How does bigfoot fit into this?
I know that's where you're going. I'm just jumping at Eventually, Well,
because we're I'm going to dovetail this straight into Bigfoot.
There has been, you know, Smithsonian cover ups. There has
been reports of human and dinosaur footprints next to each other.

(37:29):
And now for all of us, I don't care if
you're religious, if you're scientific, or if you're like me
and you're full of woo and you love the conspiracies
where that's not that's not the dogma we have been
taught that simply cannot be by about seventy two million

(37:52):
years yeah, right, right, right right, that's oh yeah, not
supt So.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
This ating doesn't conform to that too.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Well, let's I want to hear about that right now,
because dinosaurs apparently, if those stories are true about humans
and dinosaur footprints next to each other fossilized, that means
either dinosaurs lived past three hundred thousand years ago when

(38:22):
Homo sapien sapient shows up right, or Homo sapey and
sapien is much older than we are told. Right, there
isn't really a gray area there. Now. If it's the
opposite where dinosaurs were more recent than what we are told,
then that means other extinct species that are supposed to

(38:45):
be extinct or nonexistent are walking this planet right now,
like Bigfoot.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Right exactly precisely. Again, I would say that the third
option is that maybe there isn't the deep time that
we're told because a lot of that is based on
It's not just based on assumptions. It is based on
a paradigm. It's based on it's a belief. This isn't
science versus religion. It is religion versus religion. Atheism is
its own religion. People don't want to but it is.

(39:16):
It is a it is a religious belief by definition.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
Big Floe, Michigan Rob says, Hi, by the.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
Way, oh bm R good good friend. His book. I
did the the I did the artwork for all the
covers of his books. Okay, right, so the So here's
where let me just go ahead and tell my story
and it allows me to show how stupid I am.
Sometimes we all get we all get to be that way. Right. So,

(39:44):
I'm twelve. Grew up into Soto, Texas, just a little
bit north of where I am right now, and like
every kid of the eighties, right, I'm I'm the last
year of gen X. We grew up in the creeks
and going out and your mom's like don't come back,
and I don't want to see you would until you
have to be home for dinner, right, particularly in the summers.

(40:05):
So I spent all of my time in the creeks,
and as I mentioned before, North Texas, essentially I'm just
a giant limestone slab. And so particularly in the Dallas
Fort Worth metroplex, all of our creeks essentially go into
the Trinity River. The Trinity River goes all the way
out to get into the Galveston Bay, And it's the
only reason anything can live in North Texas at all.

(40:27):
Uh and uh. One of the creeks that was like
right behind my house was the ten Mile Creek. Now,
I do have to say this. Texans are amazing at
a lot of things. Naming things creatively is not one
of them at all. Why do we name it the
ten mile Creek because it's a ten mile long creek.
I'm just sorry, Like we call it's like, why do

(40:47):
we call this cedar Hill because it's a hill with
a lot of cedar trees? What's Texas? You know? What's
Lake Texoma? It's a lake between Texas and Oklahoma. We
are terrible at naming things creatively, But I did spend
my my childhood basically growing up in this creek. And
the thing about North Texas, specifically around Dallas, we have
yearly flooding really bad, and so we basically kind of

(41:09):
have to isolate the areas around our creeks because you
just can't build anything there it'll get destroyed. And a
lot of our bigger creeks are essentially cut into that
limestone rock really really deep, and really all of our
tallest trees and shrub is around our creeks because that's

(41:30):
where the most water is. So you could basically you
can't see into a creek at all around here pretty
of any real size. But because once you're in it, though,
like the ten Mile Creek, you're fifteen twenty feet below
street level in most places, and it's just sheer limestone
rock on either side, and you have this what I

(41:51):
call the green wall just flanking You can't and the
only time people can see is if they're on like
a bridge looking down. You could be three feet from
the edge of one of these creeks and not know
it because of how dense the foliage is. Well, there
was this place where the wall had basically broken down
and collapsed and created like a little bit of a
shore and you can get down into it. It's also

(42:14):
where a lot of the runoff would go into the creek,
and so we'd go down there to fish all the time.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Right, you went down there and smoked weed with your friends.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
I am actually allergic to weed. Oh so I just
really yeah, that's not my that's not my.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
I just watching the Yogurt Shop Murders. By the way,
have you seen the documentary.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
I've heard about it, but I haven't seen it.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
No, okay, it's all about the creek kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway, continue, I.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
Would have fit right in. So yeah, I mean I
grew up fossil hunting in this creek and we would
go fishing and you know, hanging out with things that
probably were a little bit more dangerous than I was
giving them credit for. But one day, again, it's about summer,
it's ninety two. So I'm eleven again, October baby, right,
b Liebra's unite, And it's about ten thirty eleven, and

(43:02):
I'm fishing with a friend and we're done. We're just
packing up, we're heading up. He's already up the hill.
I'm just now getting up the sort of collapsed wall
when I hear something I've never heard before, right, and
to this say, the only thing I can describe it
as it was the sound of like a really ugly crow,
like I don't know any other way to say that, right,

(43:22):
just imagine a crow cawing. It just sounds like an
uglier version of that. And loud.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
It was really loud, and so I just I don't
like that sound. Yeah, that sounds really creepy.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
It was. Yeah, I was like, Okay, that's weird. And so,
because again I grew up there, I know what everything is.
So I'm sort of like in the tree line and
I'm elevated now, so I'm like ten feet up. I
poked my head out. I'm like, what the heck was that?
And I see what I think is the biggest blue
heron I've ever seen in my life. Right, And it
just comes because again I'm in like the middle, like

(43:56):
here's the like the creek kind of winds through Soto,
dunkin Ville all that, and I'm sort of sitting in
the middle of a straightaway and it comes around the
corner and I see again, I think it's the biggest
blue hair I've ever seen. Because it's got an eight
to ten foot wingspan. I mean, I know how big
the creek is, and this is you know, this is
like I've seen blue herons before, so it's like, Okay,
that's a really really big blue heron. And that's all

(44:18):
I think it is. It's the biggest blue hair and
I've ever seen it, Like, that's really cool. And then
it gets right here in front of my face and
its right wing tip is five feet from my face
and that's when I realize it doesn't have feathers. Oh no,
you know, and you know when when you see a
hair and fly or a stork or a crane, and

(44:40):
they'll do that thing where their neck kind of doubles
back on itself and rests its head on its shoulders
and it sticks its legs out behind it. Well, it
was doing its head was basically doing that. That's why
I thought it was a heron. It's the same color
as a blue herons. It's sort of the pains gray.
But what I thought were it's legs sticking out behind
it was a tail with a flange on the end.
I'm just looking at this, like what am I looking at?

(45:01):
I just watch it just it never even flaps its wings.
It just glides and then banks and disappears. And that's it.
That's my that's my whole story. And my friend comes
back down. It's like, dude, what's going on. I'm like,
did you just see the terodactyl that flew that flew by?
And he's like, dude, don't I just I just want
to get lunch. And he just leaves and I'm like, well, okay,

(45:23):
what do I do with this? Like I didn't feel
fear at all, it was just like what am I Like,
I'm just shocked at what I'm looking at. So I
go back. I actually still have the book. It's my
favorite dinosaur book. And I was like, I'm flipping through
because it didn't look like a pterodactyl right, because you
know the thing you see on the flips on the
flintstones and was stealing rokel welch right, it has the

(45:43):
has the beak, and it has a crest and it's
big and it has no tail. Like, that's not what
I saw at all. So I'm flipping through, flipping through
fo I'm like, oh, here it is, and I found
the ramparencoid family. They basically just look like really big
lizards with wings and long tails with flanges on the end.
I'm like, well, that's what I saw. I could have

(46:05):
possibly seen it.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Some would call that a demon.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Well we can talk about that in a second.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, that's yeah, yeah, Well okay, I want you to
stay on the story. But if that was a sighting
two thousand years ago, twenty five hundred years ago, in
the time of Moses and Ramses, you've got a whole
nother story. That's a new chapter in the Bible, right.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Well, so here, so actually they would call them dragons
the dragon place.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Took the words right out of my mouth, right.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
And you could there's it's arguable that the flying fire
that the fiery flying Seraphim of Isaiah are a similar species.
But that's jumping out of the story because i didn't
believe my own sighting because I'm like, I live in Dallas, Texas,
Like I'm right, Like, I don't live anywhere exotic like
lock Ness or the or I live in the seventh

(47:03):
largest conurbation in the United States. See, if people were
seeing this, I told myself, certainly other people would see
them and they would talk about them. So I'm like, Jason,
you're an idiot. You're fine. I will absolutely double down
the fact that I am an idiot because I don't.
And I mean this like the next I can't remember.
The next year or the same year, the Mysterious Origins

(47:23):
of Man comes out on NBC. My dad gets the
special cassette that came with it that was sort of
it goes on on NBC and he gets to the
side thing and it's the first time I learned about
David Hatcher Childers right, and he's talking about the terosaur
sightings in South Texas, specifically the Brownsville flap. Yes, pun

(47:50):
was always intended when people talk about that, and I'm like, wow,
people have seen these things, but that's South Texas. That's
a good law. Like Brownsville's a long way away. He
talked about the Rio Grand Valley. The Rio Grand Valley
is a really far or what is really far away
from here? So I'm like, okay, so that can't have
anything to do with what I saw. So I must

(48:11):
be wrong or I must be misseeeing what I saw.
So I I put it in the back of my
head and I ignore it. I just it's like it's there.
It's like I don't know what to do with it,
but whatever, and I don't tell anybody. My father would
have believed me. I spent my my again. We went
to the creation evidence meceum in the plux that's there
in glen Rose all the time. I note a ton

(48:33):
of people would have believed me. I didn't believe me,
so I didn't bother. I had no way to prove
it anyway, so I'm like, okay, whatever. Over the years,
I do things that's like, you know, in the back
of my head. I can look back on it now
and say, well, subconsciously, I realized I did see something.
The world is weirder than we think, right, But like
I said, I'm not that bright of a person. Many

(48:54):
many years ago I met Ken Gearhart, right, famous cryptus zoologist.
And here's where it gets worse. I have a special copy.
It's a mutant copy because it's like it's a double print.
This is the freaking cover of his book, Big Bird
Modern Sighting is of flying monsters. That is literally a

(49:14):
ramferriinctoid Tero saw on the cover. I didn't tell that
man for years about my sighting because I'm like, that
happens in other places, not Dallas. Texas, and so eventually
he and Mile Blackburn do a pilot for a show
they were trying to pitch, and they were in Lyle Post.

(49:36):
It's like, hey, we're looking for stories about swamps. And
I just decided to be a smart ass and say,
does a terosaur sighting in a creek count And he goes, actually,
that's one of the episodes we're doing in about southern Oklahoma.
And I'm like, I'm sorry what the video is still online?
It's an American Monster Tour. That's my first public conversation

(49:58):
about this. I had been in the community, the crypt
zology community for years, and if you count creationism going
back to the nineties, I've been around for a while.
But my public side of this starts there and he's
I'm seeing videos and he's talking about these people that
he has spoken with very recently from southern Oklahoma that's
an hour and forty minutes north of where I am,

(50:21):
and they're describing the exact same thing I did in
the exact same way I did. So I start going.
I spent a year, I actually take a year off
of work to write my book eventually, and I meet
a ton of people who have the same story here.
In fact, there's literally like a causeway between am where

(50:43):
I live now where I used to live in Desto,
I'm sorry, out towards West Texas. And I have dozens
of accounts now of people, and they all say the
exact same thing. I thought I was looking at a pelican,
or I thought I was looking at a crane or
a something, you know, a hair and something like that.
And then I took a closer look and I realized

(51:05):
I wasn't looking at that. And the only I've got
one that said an owl, but's because it happened at night.
She's like, and then it flew in front of my
in front of my headlights, and I realized it was
a terroosaur, because that's what she is. I have all
I have, all these younger brothers, and they all have
these dinosaur toys, like, that's what I saw. And if
I and I don't like to count things that I

(51:26):
can't say that really fits that that niche But if
I were to include the dozens and dozens of stories
that I have from people are like, I didn't know
what I saw, but I was driving in from West
Texas and this thing flew over my car.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
It was.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
They used the word bird because that's what that's the
only word they have, right, right, they're using their vocabulary.
But it's like and it just it was this massive
bird that flew right over my car. If I include
those I'm dirty stories in of people, but everyone also
said the same thing, I didn't want to tell anybody
because I didn't want to look crazy.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
No, how many there are tens of thousands of sightings
like that that are in people's minds only when I
was a kid. This is nineteen seventy four, nineteen seventy five,
not seventy six, but seventy four seventy five in Indianapolis. Okay,

(52:24):
I live in California now, but I'm in Indianapolis. I'm
in sixth grade. And suddenly, for about almost a year,
six months to a year, there were pictures film on
the news, in the media reports through central Indiana about

(52:46):
thunderbird sightings that had twenty foot wingspans. And one of
my step brothers was into bird watching and they both
kind of got into it. But he was like in
a bird watching club in high sto school or something.
But so he had his binoculars, he had his book,
had his pad. You know, you're out and you're checking,
you know what I mean. And and he heads out

(53:09):
one day. I go, where are you going? He goes,
I'm gonna go look for the thunderbird? All right. It
was like a thing. Yeah, and these were normies, Jason.
This wasn't right. This wasn't you and I and our
group of crazies. These this was this. These were the

(53:30):
normies that were spotting these thunderbirds. Now, I'm okay, I
wonder were the sightings, including yours, are the sight And
this goes to Bigfoot. Are the sightings physical sightings of
his species that is alive? Or is it a ghost? Now?

Speaker 2 (53:54):
You see, that's a really great question. And one of
the things I would suggest is particularly with Bigfoot, and
we can sort of in this absolutely plays into it
because I've asked myself the same question. I wouldn't say
ghosts necessarily, but some other paranormal.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Entity, resid dimensional crazy.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Something, right, Yeah, yeah, it's it's I think it's easier
to start with question mark rather than because I think
we lead ourselves astray by trying to pin things in
again into something we don't really know yet. It's like,
I'm okay, with saying I don't know what it is,
but we can't take things off the table if we
can't take it off the table, right And in fact,
one of my theories about Bigfoot is I think the
problem is we have multiple phenomena that we're actually putting

(54:35):
into a box that we're labeling bigfoot, which is one
of the reasons we can't really move forward because we're
calling a lot of different things bigfoots become sort of
the gnome, the norm, the gear of anything that's exactly
so I do so. I think actually, particularly for big Foot,
I think the vast majority is paranormal, particularly when you

(54:57):
have things that aren't necessarily seen in broad daylight. I
think there's a lot of things seen in broad daylight,
though again, could it still be paranormal one? Right, But
with Bigfoot, we have tracks, we have scat, we have kills,
we have things that are a little bit more along
the line of what you would expect with a physical creature,

(55:17):
right per se. Now the fact we don't have a body,
I think if we don't have a body the next
five to ten years, then I think we kind of
have to say, okay, purely physical for the what I
would call the nobee or not naturally occurring biological entity
aspect of the phenomena probably off the table, right, We
didn't forget we've only been looking for these things for
like sixty years, and that's not a long time, all

(55:40):
things considered.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Really at the giant panda, yes exactly, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
Yeah, people don't realize, like it, like we so many
of these really elusive animals we don't have evidence of
for like a century or two, like it, like it
really takes about sixty or plus years to actually really
find some of these more lucive creatures. And if again,
the naturally occurring biological into the aspect of the Bigfoot
phenomena is intelligent enough to stay the heck away from us,

(56:08):
and I understand, I want to do the same thing too, Bigfoot.
Unfortunately I've got bills to pay. Then it is going
to be harder to find evidence of them, particularly if
it's a very very small population. But the simple fact
of the matter is there is a paranormal aspect to
a lot of this, which is why I can't rule
it out until we have a body of a pterosaur
or Bigfoot and it doesn't go Buffy the Vampire slayer

(56:31):
on us and just poof out into just ash. We
can't really say for certain that it's a physical creature.
What we can say, though, is we have accounts throughout
history of people killing these things, right and seeing the bodies.
We have accounts of people slaying dragons in fact, specifically

(56:53):
the ramparencoid variety. Is why, going back to the demon thing,
I would suggest we can actually prove that they were
a physical species because of a dragon body that was
displayed in France in the fifteenth century. Long story. There
we can come back to it. In fact the matters.
There are accounts of these things being killed and then

(57:14):
just being like, okay, well it's a body. Same thing
with Bigfoot or what we would call bigfoot. The problem
is there's also enough weird paranormal stuff. It's like, we
can't rule that out of any of this. And I
think again, I think that's what's leading. Because we ain't
got the Spookatron five thousand right patent pending, we don't know.
We can't objectively observe the paranormal, the supernatural, the interdimensional,

(57:38):
whatever word you want to use. We don't have the
ability to objectively observe that. So to rule that out
is way prettmature, particularly when you kind of line up
some of the things. For example, you wake up in
your bed and you see a tall, dark figure with
red glowing eyes, and you feel menace. You're like, that's

(57:59):
a demon, that's a shit shattle person, maybe my in laws.
But if you but if you unzip your tent and
you see the exact same thing, suddenly it's a bigfoot.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
Right.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
A lot of what we would of what people would
consider to be traditional a bigfoot encounter where you don't
see a bigfoot also lines up almost perfectly with poltergeist
activity that has been recorded for thousands of years for sure.
And so I think the problem is I am very
open to what I saw being paranormal, but I also

(58:33):
don't want to start at, well, it has to be
paranormal because of well, that's an assumption. What I saw
was there, People have seen it, We have records of
something similar being killed and put on display. We shouldn't
rule out physicality, right, same thing with again, bigfoot, there's
clearly a paranormal aspect to it. Like I think some
of the paranormal aspect of what we would call bigfoot

(58:55):
of the bigfoot phenomena wants us to think it's bigfoot,
because what do we do when we see a bigfoot?
We run out there and we and people are investigating.
We leave food out for it. It's all the things
you would do if you wanted to be worshiped, right,
and that I don't think that's a coincidence. I think
we do need the simple fact. Anyone who's research bigfoot

(59:19):
for a long period of time has had weird stuff
happened to them, stuff that can't be described or explained
normally right through a purely physical creature. In fact, you
can see the exact same phenomenon when people go looking
for elves. Yeah, it's the same thing. So the simple
fact matters. There is sufficient evidence from what I've seen
that's publicly available and privately available. I really wish some

(59:41):
of the stuff would come out that says, okay, physicality
is an aspect of this phenomenon is fairly certain, but
I think a much broader spectrum of I think, given
all of this is probably paranormal, and probably one is
okay with us thinking that it is Bigfoot or go
Man or malatusa or whatever, as long as we don't

(01:00:04):
recognize them necessarily for what they really are there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Right, whenever I hear somebody report a pterodactyl sighting, the
last thing I do is dismiss that that could that
what they saw was real to them, but it could
have been interdimensional, could be it ghost, could be residual physically,
they saw it and it was a pterodactyl, but what

(01:00:32):
caused it? And then we have something like in Vermont.
It's a crazy story with all of these witnesses eighteen
eighty a stage coach, four passengers, two drivers, right, okay,
right up in Vermont, going between cities with luggage. You know,

(01:00:54):
it's the Greyhound bus, right okay, right, And then what
was described Daz, a large, hairy, crazy man naked came
out of the woods and attacked the stage coach and
shook it until the passengers jumped out, and then he

(01:01:14):
turned around and ran back in the woods. And so
they called him the crazy hairy man of the woods. Yeah,
that was naked. Now wait a minute here, let's just
stop and just analyze what you know. And these people
who are normal, they've got to report this. The local

(01:01:37):
newspaper picks up on it and so forth. But you know,
they considered it a crime. A crime was committed and
their stage coach was attacked, and they blamed it on
the naked, hairy, crazy man of the woods. That what
you read that you don't was that the drunken, hairy,
naked man that lived in a cabin that was making

(01:01:59):
his own mounds, that's out attacking stage coaches or right
or right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Was it something else? Was it bigfoot? Was it? Was it?

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
You know, something else there the catto. In fact, my
actually again not my first introduction to bigfoot. I've been
you know, been aware for a long time, but my
first sort of in the field interaction with bigfoot was
actually something I wasn't anticipating. I was in Uh it
was my archeology class out in Deep East Texas. I
went to SFA and we were on we were out

(01:02:33):
looking at this experiment that was being run right, and
it's being it was sort of run out in the woods.
And the idea was they would set up these sort
of recreations of cato mounds and homes with the pots
and things, and then they just left them alone to
see what would happen. You know, how does nature reclaim
these things? So we better understand what we're finding when
we dig these things up.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Right, very cool.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
And so we were out in the woods, you know,
and we and I kept seeing these young saplings that
have been bent over and sort of twisted into these
X formations. It was very clear that they were like
eight ten feet off the ground and they were in
these you know, they were bent over specifically, and I'm like,
what's with this And one of the girls who was

(01:03:16):
I'd never seen anything like that again, I grew up hunting, right,
It's like, that's that's weird. Why would anybody do that?
And one of the girls who was from the area said, Oh,
that's the stick Indians. Well that time, I think, oh,
it's probably just like a local term for the Catto
that still lived in the area, and it was probably
some sort of religious thing, right, And that's I don't
even ask. I'm like, that's probably what's going on. It

(01:03:38):
isn't until years later I find out that stick Indian
was a term for bigfoot by the Catto very specifically.
They're like, these are these stick Indians. They viewed them
as just another weird people group. And there are accounts
going back for hundreds of years even of European settlers.
In fact, even here in the in North Texas, we
have accounts people saying there's just the these weird people

(01:04:00):
that live out in the woods, like they're just weird.
That's all that they you know, again, because these were normies.
They were just trying to live. They didn't care, right,
It's like, Okay, there's these weird people out there. As
long as they don't bother us, we don't care. People
told stories of this creature that would go up and
down the creeks. They were called the monster, the creature,
and they and it would they would howl right like this.

(01:04:22):
These accounts go back for centuries and it's very consistent.
In fact, one of the earliest sort of Bigfoot accounts
comes from and I can actually found where it was from.
The report was actually here in Waksahatchie. It's one of
the oldest accounts that the BFRO has from like nineteen thirty.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
Two, best and the best Bigfoot video that I've ever seen, yep,
shot by a friend of mine's daughter. Or they were together,
the family in Galveston, and I'd brigg in Galveston and
they were down there, four of them family, right, they're

(01:05:02):
down in Galveston after this tropical storm or hurricane came through.
What year is this twenty twenty five so you know,
I'm guessing twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen like that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
And so they're down there and they're walking through this
like Marshland area of Galveston where the oil fields used.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
To be, right down there and very familiar.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And they're on this dirt road, gravel road,
and there's nothing there. There's no trees right, just grassland. Yea.
And the daughter who is walking next to me, I
don't want to say their name, yeah, but I have
the video and she's over and she's like, man, what's that?

(01:05:50):
And he's filming too. They're they're filming the devastation of
the storm, right they came through, and she goes no
ahead of us, and so she's filming. And then on
the road, I'm gonna say it's close a quarter mile.

(01:06:12):
What is that four hundred yards?

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Reasonably close? Maybe two hundred yards. But up in front
of them is this dude walking on the road away
from them. Yeah, And she's been filming it for a
while now, he's filming it. It's all on cell phones.
And he zooms in and she zooms in. Both the

(01:06:37):
cell phone videos, I will say this are of different quality,
different cell phone, different settings on the phone. It's father
and daughter this and that. You know how it zooms,
what length, all of that, but filming the same thing
all right. Now, what you see when they zoom up
is all black okay, no clothes, no shoes, right, all

(01:07:05):
of that, just just solid black masks just with this
step right very and so anyway, they decide to catch it.
So they're walking faster and fast. You can, you can,
he's filming it. They're they're like, you know what I mean,
practically jogging and you can see him, the bigfoot turn

(01:07:31):
around and look like this while he's walking. And he
turns and he he looks behind him. Black face and
pretty stout, almost square like in its build, you know,
I mean, like no hips, right, just like just anyway,

(01:07:51):
now they're running, they're running and dude is walking, but
they don't catch him. He's just like walking fast and
they look at and he turns left off the road
and there's nothing there. There's no trees, there's no no
just flatlines. So he turns left off the road and

(01:08:12):
goes down you know, the road is up a little
bit anyway, so he goes down into the grass. They
walk up and they're filming it. They don't see him anymore.
They go all the way up to where he turned
off the street. Uh turned off the road, and there's
nothing there. He's gone. It's a trippy video. Yep, it's

(01:08:34):
a trippy video. I've got that guy blown up. You know,
I've got big monitors. I've got him blown up. It's
not perfectly in focused, and it's a you know, it's
a ten year old cell phone video. But you can
see what you see and what you don't see are clothes, shoes, hands, face,

(01:08:57):
head hair. You know, it's a hey to trippy video.
It's one of the best. It's one of the best.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
I would like to take this opportunity to do something
I'd say in a lot of videos, which is for
everyone watching this video, please, whether it's live or on
or you know, replay, buy a real camera. These things
are wonderful pieces of technology, but they're not actually cameras.
Buy you know, you can get some really decent cameras.

(01:09:26):
You don't have to spend ten thousand dollars on a lens.
Just get a decent lens and take it out, learn
how to use it, practice with it, and then take
it out whenever you go out. Because we are one
We are one good camera away from being able to
just sort of blow all this open. Because the problem
is the people who are the problem is the private

(01:09:47):
stuff I have seen are from people who are like,
I can't go forward with this because if I do,
I'll lose my job, right that kind of stuff. What
we need is someone who's willing to release the photographs
and say, and you know, just do heck, I'm a no,
I'm a notary public. I will notarize your affidavit saying
that that this is what I saw. This is a
real photo, right, and say I took this photo. Here's

(01:10:08):
the camera I took it on, here's the original, here's
all the metadata. Here it is. Here's the photo and
video of the creature that I saw. That's all we
need to really, because I guarantee people once it becomes
okay to talk about this publicly and say this is
a real thing, we're going to have sportsmen and hunters
and natures and nature enthusiasts who have careers in this

(01:10:30):
and have thousand dollars, setups rigs, they're gonna say, yeah,
here's my stuff. We just need them. We just need
something to that can push them and say, yeah, I
saw this thing. Here it is, here's my picture, here's
my video on a ten thousand dollars camera. Right, that's
all we need. Because again I didn't I didn't believe

(01:10:51):
what I saw because I didn't think anybody had seen
anything like I had seen in Daubs, so I didn't
talk about it. The thunderbird spat in Illinois that you
were talking about, there was a kid during that time
who was attacked by one of these birds in broad daylight.
His mother and friends saw it. He had scratches on
his body, and after they told the story, people would

(01:11:14):
call him bird boy. At school. They would leave dead
birds in his mailbox, and they had to move because
he saw something. He had an encounter that does not
fit within the normal, prescribed paradigm, and therefore he had
to be ostracized. The thing is, there's just enough of
us now that have had these encounters to say, hey,

(01:11:36):
say what you want, but this is real. And I
got dozens of people saying the exact same thing, and
a lot of these are normies. Most of the people.
I don't like stories from people like us because right right,
we're programmed, like.

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
No, I love the stories. I love the stories from
people like us. Yeah, but those are just stories, okay,
when you get it from an normy, you know, just
somebody that uh and I love that. Okay. So when
somebody meets me, uh, it's one of two things. I
get met by somebody that's a fan and has followed

(01:12:13):
me for years, and they can tell me about their
favorite show number four hundred and forty seven from twenty
thirteen that I don't remember. All right, there's that, and
then there are those that have never met me, heard
of me, or any of this. But when they find
out what I do, they go, oh, oh that's cool.

(01:12:34):
You know what when I was a kid, that's the.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Story I want, right, yes, yes, again, if again. For
people who are fans and notes like I want to
hear your story, that's fine. But the thing is we're
already primed to see it. Like I've had two other sightings.
The problem is I don't want to call them sightings.
They were in the right place and sort of the
right time. But the thing is I didn't get a

(01:12:59):
good enough look, and I don't want to say in
the back of my head, I might hold On, you
didn't get a good enough look at these things again,
so you can't say that's what you saw. What you
saw was a split second of that was weird, And
maybe it was, but I don't want to say it
because I don't want to go. I know that my
brain is trying to see it again. Right, So, if
you're in this world you want to see the weird

(01:13:20):
things you're looking for, it doesn't mean you didn't see it.
But when someone who's like, oh, you're writing a book
about weird things, well, let me tell you about this
weird thing that I saw right right, right right, it's
like like all of these stories and I do mean this,
all of the stories in hold On, Uh, let me
do this quick shill. Metroplex, Monsters, Dallas, Demons, fort Worth, Goatman,

(01:13:41):
and other Tears of the Trinity River available wherever fine
books and trashy rags are sold. Every story that isn't
you know, taken out of you know, hey, here's this history.
Here's this historical account. Only the accounts that I have
taken personally that I use in this book are the
ones that are basically from normis because I want the
people who are necessarily into this. And the only exception

(01:14:05):
I have is one of the people who saw a
lot of lachusa. And the only reason I would say
she breaks that mold is her aunt that she was
living with was the Kuran Dara, which is sort of
a which docture would be is the wrong It's the
wrong term, right, but we most people say, oh, it's
sort of like a it's not censoria specifically, but a

(01:14:26):
priestess of a syncretic you know, Catholic, meso American, you know,
cultural belief. But it's like with that one exception, every
one of these people are normal people who are like, hey,
this happened to me and I don't know what to
do with it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:41):
Right, So I'm going to share this with you, and
you can respect that I can't get into specifics.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
Yes, but.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
And it's too easy to nail down who I'm talking about.
If I get into specifics, too many people can do
the research. So I'm not going to get into understood.
But I will say this. I'm with a bunch of
people here in Los Angeles at at at a high

(01:15:15):
brow get together in a big home. Okay, all right,
I'm not going to say anything more than that. But
the husband of somebody that was there, who I am
introduced to, uh, turned out to be I can't give

(01:15:38):
away too much an international commercial pilot. I can't say
for who. I can't say for what. I'm not going
to get into that, but so, but but I pull
him aside, and you know, he doesn't really know me.
He knows what I do from the introductions, right, but

(01:16:00):
he's never you know, he doesn't know anything. And uh,
but I'm I'm pressing him. I go, so, ever seen
any crazy shit? You know? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,
no no. He's almost like, dude, go get it, get
get away from me, you know. Yeah. And then but

(01:16:21):
maybe about an hour later, and I think he was
watching me interact with a few people that he knew,
and we were having a good time in laughing. So
I wasn't that bad of a guy, right, So about
an hour later we're talking and he goes, just like this, Jason,
some things you just can't make up.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
This is what he says.

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
He goes, all right, we're out over the Atlantic.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
I got.

Speaker 1 (01:16:53):
And UH and my co pilot and I are looking
straight ahead. It's the middle of the day. I said,
all right, where are you going? Doesn't matter? I said, okay,
you're over the Atlantic. He goes yeah, and we see
in front of us a big black thing at our
altitude and he turns to me and he goes, do

(01:17:15):
you see that?

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
I go, I do.

Speaker 1 (01:17:18):
And then we noticed it wasn't moving and we were
headed straight for it. So I started to change lower
altitude just a little bit. But it wasn't on our radar,
but we could see it, so we didn't know what
was happening, he said. But we closed in on it

(01:17:40):
really really fast.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
I said, what was it?

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):
He goes a mile wide black domino and I said what.
And this guy he's whispering to me, you know, he's
like confessed sing. He's on a couch right, you know,
I'm a psychiatrist, and he was cleansing himself. And I said,

(01:18:09):
so what happened? He goes, man, we flew right under it.
I said what, and he goes, dude. We talked about
it for about two minutes. We stared straight ahead and
we were stunned. We talked about it, and that was it.
I said, so what happened. Nothing. What do you mean

(01:18:31):
nothing happened? No, no, no, no, no, never really told
anybody but my wife, And I said, really, now, so,
just like you, what does he do with that? He
has the experience, what does he what do I do

(01:18:51):
with it? I didn't go on the air, I didn't
call TMC. You know, I didn't go on coast to coast,
you know, Okay, man, So I heard this at a
Hollywood you know, Hollywood party, and so and so said that, no,
that's not my business. It's up to them to tell
the story. And if they're not comfortable with it. Again,

(01:19:12):
the stigma with a career like that, you know what
he's not telling anybody? You know. I remember they call
the planes that they fly, they call it their equipment. Right,
he goes, I worked my entire career to be the
pilot of the equipment that I am on transatlantic international

(01:19:36):
commercial pilot. I'm not messing that up. I'm not exactly
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
I have heard I mean, not necessarily that specific job,
but I've heard that one hundred times. Like there are
accounts from people in this book that I had known
for twenty years. And it wasn't until I said, hey,
I'm you know. Once it became known that I was
talking about the nepheline at church and I was writing
a book about this stuff, people would come up to
me and say, Hey, Jason, I gotta tell you a story.

(01:20:05):
I'm like, I have known you for twenty years.

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
Yeah, I know, right, what is going on?

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
He's like, they would also, I didn't know who to tell.
I didn't know what to do with this. I don't
I don't have a framework or a paradigm for the goat,
for the Lake Worth goat man, or for the terror
sword that I saw, or this ghost or whatever. Right,
It's like I would argue that probably if people are
being honest, I don't know that it's fifty one percent
or I don't know that it's sixty percent. But I

(01:20:31):
think the majority of people have had at least one
encounter that they're like, I don't know what.

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):
To do with this ninety nine percent. I'm going ninety
nine percent.

Speaker 2 (01:20:41):
Hey, you're you're an optimistic person.

Speaker 1 (01:20:43):
No, no, no, everybody has to lose that. No, but
they put it in a box, they put it on
the shelf. Life goes on, and it's just it's my
I had a roommate who I just saw a few
months ago, one of my oldest friends high school, the
whole whole shot. After high school, we got a house together,

(01:21:03):
party house man at the age of nineteen. Yeah, okay,
so his name is Bruce, Bruce Pfeiffer, And uh, how
do I say this? Fifty years of friendship? Okay, all right?
He called. He's listening to me on coast, he's watching
me on TV. He's you know, checking off. He calls

(01:21:25):
me on my freaking cell phone five years ago and goes, hey, man,
I never told you this, and I don't talk about it, man,
but I saw UFO when I was a kid. Land
It land on the freeway next to our houses, the
seventy Freeway, which is in between my house and his.

(01:21:48):
And uh and that's the freeway that goes from like
the East coast through Indianapolis to Denver. Right, okay, the
seventy Freeway. And so anyway, I go, what I go, Bruce,
Everything that we have done, right, friends, things, everything, the

(01:22:09):
thousands of days that we have spent together, and you're
just now telling me this. He goes, Man, I was
looking at it through the window for my bunk bed.
I watched it for an hour. I saw the semi
trucks pull up and it was blocking the freeway, and
I did the thing. What happened And just like you're saying,

(01:22:31):
he would have never told me if he didn't know
what I was doing.

Speaker 2 (01:22:36):
Yeah, again, I don't want to say if I give
too much information that people will know who it is. Well,
they can find out who it is. An individual personal
to me who knew I was writing the book has
known me for a very long time. And it actually

(01:22:57):
kind of irks me because I literally just said it
off to the to that publisher, and I'm like, I
could have had that story in the book. But this
individual lives not even half a mile from where I
had my encounter. He lives just on the other side
of the creek that I had my encounter in. And
he calls me one day, Hey, Jason, can you tell

(01:23:18):
me if any of your any of your weird friends
see like mothman or something, or there's any reports like
mothman in Dallas area? And I'm like, what, just let
me know. I'm like, okay, well, what's going on? He goes,
I'm not and it's done. It takes me like weeks
to coax this story out of him. Find He's like, okay,
I was washing the car. I look up and he

(01:23:39):
describes what he saw and I drew it out and
he's like, he's like, it kind of looked like a person,
but I didn't see the head and it flew right
over him and he had these wings that go out,
and I'm like, dude, that's a terroo stawre. Like you
just described a terrotar again broad daylight. He goes, I
don't believe that those things are still running around. I'm like, well, okay,

(01:24:01):
but at least you told me, and I have your
I have a record of it, right, I think it
doesn't mean it easy tears, but I'm like, yeah, I
mean the way this looks like, yeah, that's probably what
you saw. And the simp effect of matter is again,
whether it's fifty one or ninety nine percent, I think most,
I think the majority of humans have have had a
weird encounter and they, in the vast majority of them,

(01:24:22):
do not know what to do with it. They don't
have anyone to talk about. And it's been again, two
hundred years ago, people would have told that story right, right, right,
right right, But about one hundred fifty years ago that
became taboo, and we're just now getting out of this
very short lived you know, taboo. We can't talk about

(01:24:43):
the things that make that make the the people in
white lab coats, the priests in white lab coats unhappy, right,
And that's all this is. And so again, do I
know exactly what I saw? No? Do we know what
Bigfoot is?

Speaker 1 (01:24:55):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
I mean, heck, the big one. One of the earliest
and biggest Bigfoot encounters happened forty fifty ish miles from
where I live at Lake Worth, right. See, dozens of
people saw this creature at the same time. It was
seen by dozens of people over over multiple days. And
it's all in the record, all of it, but people

(01:25:19):
don't want to talk about it. You can literally trace
these things migrating to East Texas from Fort Worth and
then using the creeks to get out to the Trinity
right out into this things sort of migrate out out
in that direction. You can map them with the stories.
But people were terrified to tell their stories.

Speaker 1 (01:25:39):
Let's take our break right here, let's take our pork.
We blew past the break. The conversation is just too good.
Our guest tonight Jason MacLean, and we're talking about what's
going on in Texas Bigfoot and when we come back, Jason,
you're gonna tell me what a goat man is. We'll
do absolutely, we'll do all of that next Jason. You
stay right there. I am our host, Jimmy Church. This

(01:26:01):
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How you doing?

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(01:28:24):
inca Tours. Amazing tour so far, Brian, but we're here
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(01:28:46):
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(01:29:57):
welcome back Fade to Black. I am your host, Sumi
Church to Jason McLean is with us. We're talking about Bigfoot.
We're about to get into Goatman and the strange stuff
in and around Texas. Wow. And if you're just now
tuning into the show, catch the first half. The biblical

(01:30:20):
stuff was absolutely amazing. And now before we get into Goatman,
just about every culture on every continent throughout history has

(01:30:40):
dragons on their family crest, on the country's flags, on counties,
on castles, on homes, religious sites. Dinosaur fossils weren't discovered
and identify until the mid to late eighteen hundreds. That

(01:31:06):
was a modern discovery. Most people think it goes so
they wouldn't have had any reference to a flying reptile
like that, let alone, have every culture have it represented
representing their cultures. How do we explain that?

Speaker 2 (01:31:27):
Well, so, okay, one little bit bit of nuance. Every
culture has a dragon, But every culture's dragons are different.

Speaker 1 (01:31:34):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:31:35):
This is one of those things that we tend to
in the modern age. We sort of gloss over and say, oh,
they're all looking like the same thing, and we represent
a dragon the way we would do and like say
Game of Thrones or whatever. Right, they all look very,
very different. They were all describing radically different things. But
they were often reptilian with bird like claws, and that's

(01:31:58):
probably the most common aspect Northern Europe, though we do
have things that look that sound more like stegosaurus. In fact,
we have some in China sounds like that. I think
the easiest answer is because they saw it, right, They
saw these things that they recognized as distinctly different from
the normal fauna that they were used to. Right, that's

(01:32:18):
just all there. That's that's the Okham's razor of it.
And in some of the fact matters it was different enough.

Speaker 1 (01:32:24):
Like this is weird.

Speaker 2 (01:32:26):
They're rare, but they're larger. There, there's something about them
that's weird, which is why they were. They were a
part of the natural world. And so as time goes on,
like anything else, right, they get mythicized as they go
extinct and become or just go become a smaller population
and just aren't inhabited or aren't encountered that often. But

(01:32:50):
as late as again, as late as the eighteen hundreds,
we have dictionaries and uh and uh like books and
references on animals that discussed dragons as just normal things,
like hey, this is this kind of this is this
kind of dragon. They're very very rare, but they're still around,
like people were talking about these things. And this goes
back to sort of the they mentioned about France. Right

(01:33:13):
in the fifteenth century, fourteenth fifteenth century, there was this
farmer who accidentally killed this little dragon that he found.
It was hissing at his cattle, and he's like, he
was just trying to shoot away, but he hits it
in the head with this with the staff and it dies.
He's like, oh, I didn't mean to kill it, but
all right. So he ends up taking it to Paris

(01:33:33):
and to this museum and he goes on display. Now
about one hundred years later, though artists come and over
about a twenty year period they draw the body. Now
we have to remember it. They couldn't preserve things back
in the day, right, they didn't have formaldehyde so these
things weren't put into jars. So what they saw was

(01:33:54):
a recreation of what they had seen one hundred years before. Right,
it was a gath right where if you don't know
what a gaf is thinking about a Fiji mermaid, where
you take a monkey and you know it's a taxidermy thing,
right like Jacolobes. So they had taxidermy, and we can
know and we know this because the artists were realistic
artists at this point, like that art had sort of
evolved a little bit, so they were trying to do

(01:34:15):
more naturalistic artwork.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
It was their version of photography correct.

Speaker 2 (01:34:20):
And so again this is about one hundred years after
this this thing was killed it and so it's very
clear we know what was made out of because they
were They did a very very good job of rendering
this creature. However, what's really interesting about it is it
has a tooth coming out of its snout, has a
long neck, it has wings and has three claws where
the like you know where the elbow would be on

(01:34:42):
a on a bird, right, but there's three claws coming
out there, and it has a long tail and only
one pair of legs. Anyone who is familiar with dinosaurs
recognizes that as a as a ramparactoid terror sword. The
word rampharncis means, which is what the species was named after,
It means tooth. These didn't, These terrosaurs didn't have true

(01:35:04):
beaks like a tyrannidon did. They were essentially reptiles that
had teeth, and specifically, the ram Francis had a a
tooth that came out of its nose. It sort of
gave it this beak like appearance, but it wasn't a
true beak. What's really interesting at this time, though, we
what we think of is the dragon's tale, right that

(01:35:25):
that triangular diamond shaped flange at the end of a
very long tail, that that, because of its association with dragons,
becomes associated with Satan and therefore devils. Right, that enters
into the visual you know, nomenclature. Artwork. All art is
a language, right, It's not just that it's a visual language.

(01:35:48):
Tropes and and things like that evolve over time. There
is no account or rendering of a dragon with that,
with that diamond shaped tail prior to that time. It
enters into heraldic art. At that time, that's when we
start having the dragon's tail, and a lot of people
who maybe are familiar with with dragons or say, oh, well,

(01:36:09):
hold on, that sounds like a wivern, because we have
statues of it. It's very specific. It's one pair of legs,
one pair of wings, a tooth coming out of its snout,
and a flange dragon's tail. That's a wivern that art
that enters into heraldic art work, and that eventually enters
into popular artwork after that event. So what we have
is what it's clearly a gas but it has three

(01:36:34):
features that are unique to ramfactoids as a terosaur. And
then you have a fourth feature, which is that flange tail,
and that flange is madeut of soft tissue wouldn't save anyway,
and it enters into heraldic art and there and then
from that popular art at that same time, what year
it's the So the dragon was killed the fourteenth century

(01:36:58):
and it's and it's in the fifteenth century that you
start having these naturalists artists grindering it. Right, So the
simple fact of matters we can trace it to this
event and it makes the most sense, like oh, well,
this is a dragon. We can actually look at it
and figure out what a dragon is supposed to look like.
That's when we start getting things that look like that
instead of these weird chimeric versions of a of a

(01:37:20):
crocodile or a snake with you know, bird's legs right,
Because again we have to remember that people who drew
these things didn't see them. And even up until very
you know, with a few you know, exam examples like
you know, the Greeks, and then until the Renaissance, people
weren't really doing naturalistic art. They weren't trying to that

(01:37:40):
wasn't in their vocabulary visually. So people are just describing
things using the language that they have and the things
that are familiar to them, and people are just recreating
it as they were told they There wasn't this idea
of saying take it seriously but not literally. We see
the same thing with the Jersey devil, right that the

(01:38:03):
very public encounter that's had, right that we get that
drawing of what looks like a a a deer standing
up on its hind legs with a bifurcated tail and
bat wings, right, that came from the Philadelphia from a
Philadelphia artist in you know, doing for the newspaper. He
took these stories, or he took the accounts literally and

(01:38:25):
he didn't take them seriously at all. But we have
dozens of people describing this thing. But if you look,
if you actually read what there, what they're trying to
tell you, and you take it seriously, and you realize
they don't know what a dinosaur is, right, right, it
is a It is a large creature with leathery with
leathery wings. It doesn't have a bird's head, right, it's

(01:38:46):
it's sort of it's a longer face, but they don't.
It doesn't have a bird's head and has a bifurcated tail.
That is the devil's tale. Right, that's literally where the
term Jersey devil comes from. He they are describing a terosaur.
That's what's being described. The problem is the people who
are rendering the pictures don't take it seriously at all.
They think it's just whatever. And so the problem is

(01:39:07):
we now have that image in our head versus what
they actually saw. And that's really how a lot of
history has gone. We look at the at the renderings
of people who've never seen these things and aren't probably
taking them one hundred percent seriously anyway, and we're like well,
that must be what it is. And it sort of
throws off the fact that if you just look at

(01:39:27):
the descriptions and you because there's definitely two different types
of stories, right, there's the mythological stories where they're talking
and they're doing, but then there's just hey, I saw
this thing and it was eating my sheep and so
we killed it. Or in China there were these things.
We captured some and we and we had them drawing
the Emperor's coach for a while, right, and then you know, hey,

(01:39:50):
there are these things out there. We don't like going
out there because they kill things. You know. It's there
are these stories that are there that were they're just animals,
but they're so bizarre that everyone's like, Okay, this is
a thing that exists in our world. That's why the
Chinese have them on the zodiac. That is that all
the other you know, constantly, all the other things in

(01:40:11):
the zodiac are animals, right, They're normal animals, same thing
with everything all just this was a thing, it was
a part of the world. They accepted it. I think
the vast majority of mythological creatures are things that have
gone extinct over the last thousand years or had such
a small population level that we that they're just so
rare people don't really see them, so we assume they're extinct.

Speaker 1 (01:40:33):
Right when you see when you see how many winged
dinosaur fossils come out of China, you don't see you
don't see it as much or a fat all from
other countries. China boat loads. You know, it's like Tuesday
in China. Right, they find they find another. So they

(01:40:56):
obviously have seen this over and old over again throughout
their history, so much so that it becomes part of
their culture and becomes an identifier. We're looking at anything else, Yeah,
we're looking at modern fossils, but man, you know, and
some of them are remarkably preserved, like complete, complete skeletons. Okay,

(01:41:20):
before we run out of time, what is I like?
What the describer says, what's a goat? Man?

Speaker 2 (01:41:28):
So that's a really great question. I would suggest that
what we have and I really didn't. I wouldn't have
come to this conclusion had I not written this book.
Right there, there are accounts around all of Texas, but
specifically North Texas, since that's what the book is about.
It's my hometown. It's a love letter to it. Going

(01:41:50):
back to the dawn of time, there are stories of
these half man, half bovine, half goat creatures that occupy
a mythological sea. Right, what happens here in North Texas
is we have the Lakeworth monster event in the sixties. Right,
people go out. It's clearly a bigfoot, a bigfoot with mange.

(01:42:11):
I would see, I would, I would, I would put
out there. However, Jimmy jim Mars's articles labeled a goat
man because that's what one of the guys it was
like a goat person. Right, that's what So the name sticks.

Speaker 1 (01:42:24):
What happens? What half is man? What half is goat?

Speaker 2 (01:42:28):
So? Uh, if we go all the way back to
say Inky Do, right, it's he. The earliest depiction of
Inky Do is he's human up top, but he has
the he has the horns, but he has bowl's legs.

Speaker 1 (01:42:39):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:42:40):
You've got the sayers from you know, from Rome. The
fawns I'm sorry, the fawns were Roman, sadys were Greek.
You've got the leshie of Indo European mythology, where it's
human up top, has some has a pair of horn
or antlers, depending on the culture, and then has again
goat or bovine. You know, it's hairy of hooved, backwards

(01:43:01):
facing legs right right, digitrade legs. And so what happens
in North Texas is again we have these stories of
the creature or the monster like. It's there's all these
little stories and tales of a hairy, hominoid creature running round.
But the name goat man blows up because now we
have radio right in television, and so there's this big

(01:43:26):
event and people are talking about it, and so now
the name goat man gets superimposed over every local legend
in North Texas. Every iron truss bridge that basically has
a version of the hang of the hanged man mythology,
now it becomes goat man.

Speaker 1 (01:43:47):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:43:49):
What's really weird, though, is you could say, okay, essentially,
it's just people were saying, okay, this was you know,
this is clearly a bigfoot, but now it's goat man.
And so now the lore changes and moves. But White
Rock Lake people actually have seen a goat like person
in broad daylight. The most famous story was collected. I

(01:44:11):
forget the name of the original book, but I know
Nick Redfern wrote about it as well. He collected that
story as well of a woman. She was jogging broad
daylight around white Rock Lake. This is in Dallas. Like,
it's not downtown Dallas, but this is Dallas, right, And
this thing steps out of what I would call the
green wall, walks towards her, smiles at her, kneels down,

(01:44:32):
disappears in a blinding flash of light. The second story,
which that's the only publicly available story up until it
was the late nineties. Wow, is when is when that occurs?
But here's the thing, quick, guys, But I actually I
actually double the amount of publicly available information on this.

(01:44:54):
So there's my little niche in the well.

Speaker 1 (01:44:56):
Yeah, and we've got the links below. Everybody, just click
and head over to Jason's site. Everything that you need
is right there.

Speaker 2 (01:45:05):
And so this was actually a person known person again,
another person known to me personally. I'd known this man
for twenty years. And he's like, so, Jason, I cann
tell you the story that happened to me in the eighties.
And again I didn't say, hey, do you have a
street like? He just like, I gotta tell you this story, right.
And again, he and his friends, it's the late eighties.
They're at Snuffers, which is a big you know, sort
of bar pub thing in Dallas at the time. It

(01:45:28):
still kind of is it's run down now. Anyway, they
end up going middle of the night to walk around
White Rock Lakes and his friend they they got the dates,
you know how it goes right, and they're walking, one
of the girls gets sort of ahead of them, and
then she turns around to sort of make fun of them,
and then she screams and they turn around and standing
in the light of a street lamp. Is this creature

(01:45:52):
it's he said, Jason. It was like six seven It
was like six and a half seven feet tall. It
had goat like legs, it had goat like horns, and
it was just looking at us. He goes, I'm not.
I don't want to act like I'm brave. We all
scram and we ran and is I ran faster than
the girls and I did not care he was that
because I don't know what the heck that was, but

(01:46:13):
that's what I saw it. That was the Lake Worth
goat man. So where the it looks like in a
lot of places, the goat man mythology, the goat man
name sup is super imposed over the bigfoot lore because
of what because of Jim Mars's articles, and it leads
to folklore like in the in the ten Mile Creek
that I was growing up, and there was the myth
of the hinky man. Right, It's clearly because we have

(01:46:36):
a lot of Czechoslovakians that moved here to Texas, we
have a lot of check myth. So it's it's clearly
a derivative of Crampis.

Speaker 1 (01:46:44):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:46:45):
It's a guy who wears you know, uh a heavy coat, right,
and he goes around. He finds all the kids who
are down there smoking the you know, smoking the gange
and drinking and stuff, and they and he kidnaps him
and kills him and puts them in a bag. And
it's like, clearly this is Crampis. But it connects to
Bigfoot sightings as well. So what happened is the goat
man you know name turns into this lore. But for

(01:47:08):
White Rock Creek it is a literal goat man. But
here's the thing, there are I have several other stories
where they are that occur off of the tributaries from
White Rock Lake. Because again everything drains into the Trinity, right,
and every lake in North Texas is artificial. We dammed
up creeks and rivers to make our because water doesn't

(01:47:29):
want to be in Texas. Right, there are these accounts
that happen off of tributaries of White Rock Lake where
it's clearly connected to the goat man. It has the
backwards facing legs things like that, but it has none
of the goat like features. It's like it's like a
proto form, right, It's almost you know, it has it
loses the hair, it loses the antlers, it loses the

(01:47:51):
humanoid phase, but it still has the backwards facing legs.
It's like the further away it gets from the mythological
enter it becomes less distinct. It's almost as if the
loure is creating the creature or giving the creature a
form to take. So this is clearly a paranormal entity.

(01:48:14):
I mean, let's face it, there are no half people
half goats walking around, you know, living off the garbage
in Dallas, right, But there are paranormal entities, and it
seems like the connection to these areas where the stories
exist are creating a Either we're either it's a thought form,

(01:48:38):
like a tulpa kind of thing. I actually don't like
that term because it's it's very misused from Zen Buddhism
or Tibetan Buddhism. But people know what I mean when
they say that. So this is either some sort of
thought form kind of thing, or the mythology and the
and the common belief gives form to for this physical
entity to enter into our reality. And that's the form

(01:48:59):
it takes, either because of collective belief or you know,
however you want to however you want to slice that pie.
I'm willing to say clearly the mythology has something to
do with it because it's taking that specific form. At
the same time, though that form goes back thousands of years,
just like La Lachusa, the owl woman of Latin American

(01:49:19):
law is very easily connected to uh Lilith and the
Harpies and of of of Greek mythologies. Like there are
these themes, these concepts that go all the way back
to record through recorded history, and we see them today.
We just call them by different names, and they seem

(01:49:40):
to manifest slightly differently depending on the cultural expectation, right,
And that's and that's really what's kind of going on here,
which is why I'm I'm willing to believe that my
encounter could be paranormal, right, but I wasn't expecting to
see a living terrorist or in Dallas, Texas, that's one
of you know. But if you're at White Rock Lake,

(01:50:02):
oh well, hey, maybe I might see a goat man. Right,
So there is some of these creatures seem to have
these paranormals to these very specifically take forms that we
expect them to take. And it does seem to be
very culturally driven.

Speaker 1 (01:50:18):
I am reminded of I know this sounds strange, but
hear me out in one of the early Carlos Castaneda books.
All right, I don't know if it was the Second
Ring or the or whatever, but one of the first three.
So I'm reading it, and he's down in South America,

(01:50:42):
somewhere in Central America, and he goes out and he's
with what he calls a witch, and they go out
there on a mountain and they go to the edge
of this cliff. And this is how he describes it.
I'm going to change it up a little bit because

(01:51:04):
I can be as descriptive as Carlos casting Yeah. Plus
I read this forty years ago. But anyway, yeah, but yeah,
but it's never left my brain. He says that he's
standing next to this witch and she reaches underneath her
skirt and urinates in her hands, takes it and flings

(01:51:30):
it out over the cliff into the air, right, and
then she walks on it and starts running and flying.
Right now.

Speaker 2 (01:51:44):
Oh I believe yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:51:45):
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Now, So it's just we need
to stop and think about this. Was Carlos making it up? Okay,
all right, it is a good story. Was he just
on some crazy drugs and this was a hallucination? Or right?
Did he witness this and what was it? And so

(01:52:08):
the tie in for me with the phenomenon is that
when we're talking about pterodactyls or thunderbirds or bigfoot or
any of this stuff or goatman mothman, right where he's
witnessing this, he's describing it in a modern context, so

(01:52:31):
we can understand it in a modern way. You push
that back fifteen hundred two thousand years and you take
the same event, you've got a totally different description, a
totally different event, a total totally different piece of folklore, mythology,
or a news clipping or a wood cut, right, you

(01:52:53):
know you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:52:54):
Oh exactly, Yeah, Yeah. One of the things I say
a lot is that folklore is not phenomena. And the
thing is, folklore is far more about the cultural context
that these things exist in. It doesn't mean that I'm
not saying that the folklore isn't real or that it
isn't surrounding something that's real. What I'm saying is when
we when we hear, when we read these stories, when

(01:53:16):
we see, we have to understand everyone's trying to process
it from their worldview, from their perspective correct, and it's
going to have different meaning to them. It doesn't mean
it didn't happen. It just means we need to understand.
And we One of the I think one of the
great crimes of the Fortien researchers, and I'll throw myself

(01:53:37):
under this bus too. I think we all do it
to a degree is we want to cherry pick what
we discuss and what data we take in. I'm not
saying we take in absolutely everything, but we need to
understand the data for what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:53:53):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:53:53):
We need to say, okay, these like I'm not a
big fan of using the term thunderbird for these things
for or these aerial phenomena, because like that word means
something to the cultures that created the word. And if
you look at what they thought the thunderbird was, it
was a deity. Again, different tribes had different interpretations of it,

(01:54:14):
but this was oftentimes a creator deity, a storm god.
It could take human form. It's like, I don't like
usurping other cultures phrases because I think I can use
it to make my point. I don't think that's I
think that's counterproductive and it's disrespectful. I am a Christian,
I'm not. But so it's like I don't think it's
really a god that they were talking about, right, But

(01:54:35):
at the same time, I don't want to disrespect that
culture because those were human beings made the image of
God and they're worthy of respect. We need to interpret,
you know, we need to take their stories from them first.
We don't need to we don't need to to chop
it up and you know and skin it for parts
kind of thing. Right, Right, Let's take everyone's folkal or

(01:54:57):
and say, okay, it is folk or understand it from
their person ective first, and then let's see if maybe
there is there may be a through line here. But
I think we either take it too seriously to the
point that it becomes useless because now we're trapped within
their own within their own framework, or we just strip
it for parts and now it's divorced from its original
thing and we're just we're sort of using it to

(01:55:18):
to support our own personal beliefs to yeah, right, yeah,
And it's like that's that both are both are unproductive
and dishonest to a point. We just need to understand though,
that there is, that this is all real, and we
need to understand from their perspective and from their frameworks
and simple fact of matters. I've got too many. The

(01:55:39):
church I grew up in was very big on missionaries.
My wife is a missionary kid like I. Her family
are missionaries. I there are stories I could tell you
that would that would freak out the hardest Fordian because
of stuff that happens in the jungle where it's like, hey,
these are people who are doing the real stuff and
they believe it and ain't gets weird and it gets

(01:56:02):
real weird, real fast in a way that we're like, now,
that can't possibly be a thing. It's like, no, it is,
and that stuff does happen here in the US. We
just don't talk about it. We've gotten really good at
shutting the f up about it because we don't want
to upset the the priests and the white cloaks, right, or.

Speaker 1 (01:56:25):
Your boss or your host.

Speaker 2 (01:56:26):
And the reason your wife or your wife. Yeah, again,
the reason they're scared. They're scared is because, well, we
don't want to be called crazy by the people in
the white lab coats. And I get it again, that
was me. Again, I knew in freaking Garhart for years
before I told him my story. But again, I'm not
the brightest bulb in the drawer here, right, I'm just

(01:56:47):
as guilty as anyone. But we're coming to a time
when we can actually talk about this, and the simple
fact of matters. A lot of these particularly the more
paranormal entities, are clearly there is a cultural connection that
how they expressed themselves. And I think we need until
we recognize that, it's going to be harder to because

(01:57:09):
we when we realize a lot of these things are
taking the form that we expect them to take, it's
gonna be hard to recognize what's paranormal what isn't, particularly
for we're calling everything bigfoot, or we call everything chepicabro.
We need to be willing to say, tell me your story.
Let's take that data and then let's see where we
can where it sort of fits, and let's stop. As

(01:57:29):
I'm sorry a lot of Bigfoot researchers have done over
the last sixty years. Up until very recently, all the
elements of high strangeness from some of these stories were
whitewashed out.

Speaker 1 (01:57:39):
They don't want to talk about that, and they don't
even want to consider it. For the most wort, I
think it's changing now. You know, I saw in Peru,
I saw a condor flying.

Speaker 2 (01:57:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:57:51):
If I wasn't told at the time check it out,
a condor, if I would have just looked up in
the sky and saw that, you know what I saw
an airplane? It was that big, right, Yeah, the wing
span and the way it looked. And and here's here's uh,
here's another uh direct point. Leper cons yes, and little

(01:58:19):
green men the same thing, right. So the folklore turns
it into leper couns, you know, five hundred years ago
in Europe and in Ireland and in the UK. Uh,
And it becomes a story folk tale. Okay, I get that,

(01:58:41):
But it's all based on something first, yes, and and
then so we look today in Little Green Men and Martians.
But here's the tie in for me. Where as a kid,
I started to wonder about things, and that was the

(01:59:03):
Great Kazoo in Flintstones.

Speaker 2 (01:59:05):
Oh yeah, you know what I mean, Yes, oh yeah,
I love that character.

Speaker 1 (01:59:09):
One of the best, one of the best, and yeah, absolutely,
But what that did to me because I'm seeing the
same things. I'm I'm I'm pouring my lucky charms on
Saturday morning, right, I got, I got the Leprecaun on
the box. I'm watching that Great Kazoo on TV and

(01:59:31):
watching a movie about Little Green Men of Martians that night.
But I'm seeing the same symbology. And so to me,
as a kid, I made all those connections. As an adult,
we fight those connections, we do.

Speaker 2 (01:59:48):
And because again, regardless of what I would take the
position of a thousand years ago, their cultural context turned
them into leprechauns and elves and and you know bridge, yeah,
and then but modern folklore turns them into little green
men and grays and the and the problem is it

(02:00:11):
made The problem is again we assume, because of the
hubris of modernity, that we know what we're dealing with.
And the problem is it's just enough. It's just another
folklore effect. Let me, can I piss everybody? I mean
everybody off right now? That's what we're here to do.
Folklore doesn't mean what you think it means. Academically. Folklore

(02:00:33):
is nothing more than just the teachings and cultural expectations
of of a of a culture. That's all it is.
Science is a form of folklore. Teaching your kids to
brush their teeth once or twice a day, or three
times a day, whatever you want to do, that's folklore.
That's just as much folklore as how to interact with
the fee. It's all folklore. And but we were like, no,

(02:00:55):
we have we have cell phones and computers, and we
have people in white lab coats. We know what the
world is. No, you don't. If you everyone have said
what it said the exact same thing six hundred years ago,
before we knew microbes were a thing.

Speaker 1 (02:01:10):
Right.

Speaker 2 (02:01:11):
The problem is we're interacting with the universe we don't
really understand. And for the last century and a half
we have not had a vocabulary for the supernatural. I point,
and I've done this in a lot of my other books. Again,
most of my work is is actually an eschatology.

Speaker 1 (02:01:28):
But C. S.

Speaker 2 (02:01:30):
Lewis wrote in Screwtape Latters, I'm gonna paraphrase it real quick.
In Screwtape Layers he hypothesizes about what he calls the
materialist witch because he points out that again Screwtape Letters
is basically like the premise is, it's a demon writing
to another demon. Right. He said, if you make your
your person a witch, you can torment them and have

(02:01:51):
all the fun you want, but at some point they're
going to think about God, and you could lose them.
But if you make him a materialist, he'll never think
about God. But you can't ormnum. And then there is
this sort of thought process of creating a finding a
way to create a materialist witch, which is someone who
could believe in something supernatural but ascribed to it a physicality,

(02:02:14):
a naturalism to it. So you you can torment a
human but they'll never think about God.

Speaker 1 (02:02:20):
It sounds like you're talking about Richard Dawkins.

Speaker 2 (02:02:25):
There you go. Well, it's it's more prevalent than we
would like to think. With the modern UFO movement is
it's it's taking all the supernatural elements of the fae
and all of the supernatural, you know, elves and the
you know, the ancient gods of the past and all
of those things. But then wiping a star Trek coating

(02:02:47):
of paint on it, and yes, I do let star Trek.
I'm a Babylon fiver though hard sci fi all the way,
But that's all we've done, right, And if you look
at them closely enough, you're like, hold on everyone again.
Georgio Suclos and I were sitting a table. We looked like, yeah,
the UFO phenomenous to name partict the abductions looks very
much like fay interactions, leprechauns and all that from five

(02:03:09):
hundred years ago. But I would ask, yeah, you're right, one,
but where's the spacecraft equivalent. They don't have a spacecraft.
You go down into the Earth. That's where Fairyland is.
But they would but again George would have would agree
with me that the events in Fairyland look very much
like what happens on a on a spaceship. So what happens, well,
it's it's like it's taking a new culturally acceptable context.

Speaker 1 (02:03:34):
Do you want to go to dinner with Georgia? I
can set that up. It sounds like you want to
do that. No, I'm being serious. I mean, oh you know,
I'm being serious.

Speaker 2 (02:03:44):
Happy to hey, I will, I will have a conversation
with anyone over over caso, Matt.

Speaker 1 (02:03:49):
I think you need to manage. I think you're manifesting
this and you're talking to the right person.

Speaker 2 (02:03:54):
So, uh, hey, you want to do Come on now,
I'll make him my famous caso. He'll love my caso.
He'll he'll he'll with me.

Speaker 1 (02:04:01):
Hour of case though, Okay, off the wall, We're we're
into overtime. So I'm going to keep you for another
five minutes or so, if that's okay for I am
in love. I'm not gay, but if I were, but
if you were, Captain Pike, okay, okay, all right, Strange

(02:04:26):
Worlds is amazing, is amazing.

Speaker 2 (02:04:28):
So I am okay. So I'm one of those guys
who I don't. I hated Discovery because I think they
were trying to push too much.

Speaker 1 (02:04:34):
Discovery was good. It was good. Now so many Trekkies
just pooh pooh on Discovery. I'm not. I'm not.

Speaker 2 (02:04:44):
When they made the time jump, when they made the
time in the future, it got good, okay, right, I
think they were trying too hard in the first two seasons.
But I will say this, I am a d S
nine fan. Everyone's like, are you are you?

Speaker 1 (02:04:57):
Are you?

Speaker 2 (02:04:57):
Kirkerbercard, I'm like freaking Cisco, right, But for me it
is d S nine Strange New Worlds and then probably Enterprise,
but then co equal becomes like TNG with it, like
I think those are both equal. But Strange New Worlds
is as good as any Star Trek has been.

Speaker 1 (02:05:14):
And so good.

Speaker 2 (02:05:16):
Picard season three the first no no, no Picard, no
Picard in I would just say season three has one
of the best episodes in Star Trek history. Midway through,
I don't want to spoil it for anybody. It's the
bar scene with with the with the captain, with the
other with with the other captain.

Speaker 1 (02:05:33):
I'll just say that strange he's talking about strange, strange
world It is so solid. It is just so good
and very creative, and it's gotten to the point now
where I don't I don't give a ship whatever is
about to happen because it is so well written. And

(02:05:54):
you know, the whole wedding thing with the wedding planner,
you know, a few episodes ago, I liked that well.
I was on. Uh. He's been on the show many times,
and I've also been on his podcast too as well.
And I thought it was a strange uh casting at first.
But anyway, not to get side everybody, just go and

(02:06:17):
watch it. But being that creative in a show like that,
in a science fiction, you know, space adventure like that,
that is taking chances with the script. And it was
really really, really really well done.

Speaker 2 (02:06:32):
Yes, and excellent.

Speaker 1 (02:06:34):
The last episode where everybody becomes Vulkan. Have you seen it?
Did you see it? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:06:39):
Oh yeah, I saw the I saw the one. I
watched the new one this morning.

Speaker 1 (02:06:42):
Oh no, it just can't don't don't stop stop.

Speaker 2 (02:06:45):
I'm not watching.

Speaker 1 (02:06:46):
I'm watching. I'm watching it. Soon as this show ends,
I'm heading in there to watch. That's very good. I
know it's good street but okay, but I want to
make this comment, all right, And I've talked to a
few of my friends about this. Scott u Spock has
turned into or is in strange New Worlds.

Speaker 2 (02:07:10):
He's a hoe, Yes, he's a hope. Yeah, he absolutely is.

Speaker 1 (02:07:16):
That That is uh.

Speaker 2 (02:07:18):
I think it's I think it's called Trek Central. I
think that's the that's the group they do a thing
that's they They are leaning a lot into the religion,
into the relationship aspect of a lot of these characters.
And I'm like, yeah, really, the relationship that they have
completely ignored that they need to focus on more is
Pike and Spock, right, like, but Spock at this.

Speaker 1 (02:07:42):
Point has slept with everybody.

Speaker 2 (02:07:44):
On this everyone yeah, everyone.

Speaker 1 (02:07:47):
Yeah, Yeah, he's spreading the seed man.

Speaker 2 (02:07:51):
His space seed, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:07:52):
And so this space scene, yep. And it's it's one
of the interesting aspects of this because when we look
at the Kirk Spock, right, does that make sense? Yeah,
I'm making sense where you know, so conservative and reserved
and smart and you know, and and drop it. We
never knew what the word logical meant until Spock started

(02:08:15):
spewing it in the sixties. But but that version of
Spock is not that's the evolved, mature Spock. He he
was a tramp apparently growing up.

Speaker 2 (02:08:30):
Yeah, he's got a he's got a little he's got
a little tramp stamp on right.

Speaker 1 (02:08:35):
Here, right here, right here, he does and and and
and how about okay, what's your name? That plays the
nurse the blonde.

Speaker 2 (02:08:44):
Uh chapel like that I cannot remember her name character.

Speaker 1 (02:08:48):
He is unbelievable. She's so cool and such a great
actor and plays the role will it really well. And
that relationship that he had with her, I don't want
to give anything way, if you haven't seen the series,
go and watch it. But that I got, I got
sucked into that relationship. And then as we move on,

(02:09:09):
as as as Spock uh moves on from her and
he needs to uh, he needs to get back on
the horse, as they say, right, But the dance scenes
with Spock where he we got to remember, he's not

(02:09:29):
supposed to have emotions, not supposed to be happy, sad,
any of that stuff love, right, and and yet presenting
him with moves like that and and a tango and
the the bonding, the spiritual bonding that they have together
in those dance scenes was incredible. But that is creative writing.

(02:09:53):
And that's what makes Strange New world so special.

Speaker 2 (02:09:56):
I again, I love Strange New Worlds. That is I
was really looking forward to and when it when, and
it is delivered very consistently on just good old fashioned
Star Trek where you can have weird, funny things right,
it's not taking itself too seriously. So when it is
serious it's like, oh wow, like this is this is
profound And again, I don't want to spoil anything for anyone,
but the individual from like two or three episodes ago

(02:10:22):
that was introduced at the beginning of the season and
then what happened to him happened like that was genuinely heartbreaking.
The way that they they've handled what we would call
red shirts back in the day. Yeah, yeah, by the
way they've handled them, very very well done, and it's
it's excellent writing and one things they did, and I
loved it, but I also it pissed me off because

(02:10:42):
they did. One of one of the early books I
put up online was a sort of a unofficial Star
Wars fan theory just saying, hey, I think I've got
I got something. It happened before they even came out
with the second of the new of the new series,
so some of the stuff, eh, whatever, But it was fun.
But one of the I've had, you know, people in
the Star Trek fandom have been arguing between Prime Timeline

(02:11:05):
and Kelvin's like, well is this prime?

Speaker 1 (02:11:07):
Is this not?

Speaker 2 (02:11:08):
One of the things I had sort of been saying
for a while, and I wish i'd written it down
so I could have gotten credit for it, is that
I don't think. I don't even think like the original
movies with Spock and Kirk happened in the same original
timeline that the show happens in, right. I think all
every time someone's going back and forth, they're altering the timeline.
And of course we find out in Enterprise the temporal
Cold War. I think every essentially every series or every

(02:11:31):
segment of is happening in its own revised timeline. Like
the Kelvin timeline is like the most dramatically revised, but
every single one is its own unique timeline that's been modified.
And they did that in season two or like, yeah, no,
you're going every time you modify the timeline, the timeline
wants to fix itself to a point. So you're gonna
get the same people doing similar things. It just may

(02:11:54):
take a little bit more to get there, or it
may get there a different way, but you're gonna have
all the same people doing the same things. And that's
and I had sort of already thought of it, and
they sort of confirmed that in the second seasons. Like
the reason everything looks different in this series is because
it's not. It's still the Prime timeline. It's just not
the timeline that we're used to because of all the
time travel shenanigans from all the other series.

Speaker 1 (02:12:15):
But yet it's all familiar.

Speaker 2 (02:12:18):
But it's all the same because the timeline wants to
fix it up. That was the whole point of and
the way that it's filmed, the way that it's acted,
and and the set and this and and it's.

Speaker 1 (02:12:29):
All you don't have to, uh, you know, stretch your
imagination or go, oh, come man, what about your ship? No,
you don't do that. It's mill with strange new worlds.
You mentioned the episode three episodes ago that again, one
of the most creative episodes, except I knew, I knew
the ending. I saw it coming. And the reason why

(02:12:51):
it was it was the Cannibal.

Speaker 2 (02:12:52):
Ship, right, Okay, so I was actually talking about the
one before that, But yes, I did love the Cannibal Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:12:58):
The Cannibal ship. And watch the Piranha ship, you know whatever,
and I'm watched, and I'm and and when they when
they and they showed all the bodies floated, you know,
when they when they blew the ship up, uh so
they wouldn't get eaten. And I went watch this, Yeah,
I know Zach and when they zoomed in and there,

(02:13:20):
I was like, oh I saw that coming.

Speaker 2 (02:13:24):
Again, very creative, classic Star Trek like that. That was
a very Again this show. The one of the reasons
it's so good is because it's like, hey, let's take
all the best elements of the original series, right, those
those the funny, weird things, the things are just over
the top. Let's take all of that, let's re let's
retranslate it into a new context, but let's do something

(02:13:49):
new with it. Right And again, that Cannibal ship was
so I love that episode. So that was one of
my favorite episodes of the entire series because again, it's
classic Star Trek and it but it's done, it's fresh.
I like what you said. It's it's very familiar. It's familiar.
The show is familiar but new at the same time.
And they've done a great job on that series.

Speaker 1 (02:14:11):
I have wanted to I'm not enough of a Trekky
to know everything about every They've had dozens of series,
uh in the movies at the time, but I've watched
the original series, all of it, and that's a commitment.

Speaker 2 (02:14:30):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (02:14:31):
Those two seasons when they have like fifty episodes a season,
you know, something crazy?

Speaker 2 (02:14:36):
Yeah, it was. It's nuts. I have to say I
haven't even done that, Like I'm oh, I have, I have?
I need to, I very much need to. I did
go back and watch the episode with Cochrane, uh, the
guy who invented warp drive.

Speaker 1 (02:14:50):
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:14:52):
I had to go back. I went back and watched that,
and that's what. That was one of those things where
I'm like, oh, this is evidence right here that the
timeline has been messed up. But yeah, I made it.
I made it film them.

Speaker 1 (02:15:01):
I made a corporate film are you ready? With James Dohan?
Really with the company, and so Dohan I got to
spend a week with him. Everybody at our company did,
and those that were part of the filming of this.
It was a fifteen minute we shot on film, shot

(02:15:23):
on film, dude on film, nice at a studio here
in Hollywood. Anyway, that that part doesn't matter. So later
on that year, our company party, our Christmas party, dohn
Is invited Herbie Hancock is playing, right, it's our company party,
and I go in and we had two sections. We

(02:15:44):
had the bands, but we had this back lounge area
and I walk in and there's Dohan sitting at the
table and I come up and I go, hey man,
He goes, hey man, he goes the thesbian that's what
he called me. That's what he called How cool is that?

Speaker 2 (02:16:01):
How cool is that?

Speaker 1 (02:16:03):
Man? But yeah, I got to I got to hang
with him for a minute. Now. What I did want
to say, and I wanted to wrap on the Star
Trek thing because I'm not the in depth crazy trucky.
I'm not that. I'm not the Galaxy quest you know, Tucky.

(02:16:26):
I'm not that I'm not. But what I am is
a newcomer to the party and I have fully analyzed
not only Discovery but Strange New Worlds, and I am
totally sucked up in it to the point where I
could almost and I want to almost do a podcast

(02:16:47):
on Strange New Worlds and Discovery, not the old stuff,
because I don't. I don't. I tried to watch that
Picard thing that came out last year.

Speaker 2 (02:16:55):
It was horrible and.

Speaker 1 (02:16:57):
People loved it, and people loved it. Okay, that's fine,
and that's fine. I couldn't. I watched the first episode and.

Speaker 2 (02:17:04):
Yeah, the card requires a lot of nostalgia, Like the
first two seasons. I was not really. I didn't even
watch the second season. I'm like, I'm done, I don't care.
But the third one, I'm like, I'll give it a try.
It has one of the best scenes in episodes of
any star trek in it. But I will say it
is very, very nostalgia dependent, so I understand.

Speaker 1 (02:17:24):
Yeah, I can't get sucked into it. I don't have
the energy. But what's cool for me is that Discovery
and Strange New Worlds are standalone things that start in
their own stories, and so for me, I can It's
just it's all fresh, it's all new, and I understand
what's going on. But I am totally sold on Captain Pike.

(02:17:48):
And I didn't think I so good.

Speaker 2 (02:17:51):
So good Jason, Yeah, no, and some amounts amazing love it.
He is so good.

Speaker 1 (02:17:57):
Everybody, everybody, the whole cast. I'm sucked in. I'm in.
I'm sold Jason, thank you so much. And where can
everybody reach out to you?

Speaker 2 (02:18:08):
Yeah? I mean, I'm I'm on Facebook again. You can
find me on YouTube as well, and again. Website Seri
Papers si r u papers dot Com has links to
all my stuff. I don't live on the internet, so
but send me a message. I will try and get
back to you as quickly as I can. I do
have a life to pay bills and all that, but

(02:18:28):
again I'm around, books are out there and just just
you know, reach out and say howdy, happy to always
happy to say hi.

Speaker 1 (02:18:36):
I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed the conversation tonight, and
I'm inviting you back on the show. I will have
Michelle reach out to you and I really look forward
to our next conversation.

Speaker 2 (02:18:49):
Thank you so much, Thank you sir again, Pleasures all
mine and we'll be happy talking about Star Trek anytime.

Speaker 1 (02:18:55):
Perfect conversation. Thank you so much. Jason. Enjoy your weekend.

Speaker 2 (02:19:00):
I'll do my best.

Speaker 1 (02:19:02):
Jason McLean everybody. Jason's links are below. We haven't gone
into overtime in quite a while. That was a lot
of fun. Thank you, Jason. And yes it is my Friday,
it is your Thursday, so everybody enjoy your weekend, have
a great time, be safe, and do it right. You
know what to do. I will see everybody back here

(02:19:24):
on Monday. But until then, all I've got is go
Beckley Teppy Ada Black is produced by Hilton J. Palm,
Renee Newman, and Michelle Free Special thanks to Bill, John Dex,
Jessica Dennis, and Kevin Webmaster Is Drew the Geek. Music

(02:19:47):
by Doug Albridge. Intro Spaceboy Ada Black is produced by
kJ c R for the Game Changer Network. This broadcast
is owned and copyrighted two thousand in twenty four by
Fade to Black and the Game Changer Network, Inc. It
cannot be rebroadcast, downloaded, copied, or used anywhere in the

(02:20:08):
known universe without written permission from Fade to Black or
the Game Changer Network. I'm your Host, Jimmy Church, Go Back, Lee,
Tappy