FADE to BLACK host: Jimmy Church guest: Travis Walton/Jennifer Stein

Tonight, Travis Walton and Jennifer Stein join us to discuss the 50 year anniversary of Travis' 1975 abduction in Snowflake, Arizona.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:24):
This Hope radio for the NASSIS headline of US.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
July eighth, nineteen forty seven, the.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Audi Airport has an outstart applying.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
This turpin found and there's now in the possession of
the art.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Air with the game and really changed the game.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Game change.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
I occasionally think how quickly our difference is worldwide would
vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside
this work.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
This is Day to Black with your host Jimmy Church
on the Game Changer Radio Network. Well, well, well, good evening.
How you doing Fade to Black? Yeah, today's Monday, September
twenty second, two thousand and twenty five. I'm assuming Church,

(01:18):
let's do this man. So here we are. We're kicking
off a brand new week of Fade to Black. Tonight,
Travis Walt and Jennifer Stein are with us. Travis isn't
quite with us yet, he might be, he might pop in.
Travis is actually traveling to Montreal, Canada as I speak

(01:40):
to you now. Rumors are that his plane has landed.
So but I've got Jennifer Stein here. I like Jennifer more. Actually,
tomorrow night, Tony Rathman returns, and tomorrow night we're gonna
do staticicom revealed tomorrow night with Tony Rathman, one of

(02:01):
my favorite paranormal investigators on the entire planet. Now Wednesday night,
Dean Bertram is here. We're going to be talking about
this Shaver mystery. And then Thursday night we are off
air because we are on the road. Yeah, who wrote that?

(02:21):
Was that? Jack Kerrowak? Was that? Was that? Who did
on the road? Jennifer knows. I have the book. I'd
have to go and pick it up. Now. I have
six events coming up in February. It's the Conscious Life
Expo February twenty through the twenty third at the Lex Hilton.
After that the Contact Modalities Expo May first through the third,

(02:44):
and Delavan, Wisconsin at Delavan Lake. After that Contact in
the Desert May twenty eight through June first, twenty twenty six.
Tickets on sale this Thanksgiving Day. Then I head south
to Peru for the INCA Celebration of the Sun with
Brian Forrester June twenty third through July first. I come
back from that head over to Scotland for the Monty
Pythons Tour of Scotland August first through the ninth. I

(03:08):
come back from that head down to Peru and Easter
Island with Brian Forrester. And that is also November of
twenty twenty six. The links for everything that I am
doing are in the description below. Over on our website
social media, It's like, you know, it's everywhere, okay, so
click on the links and come and hang out with

(03:30):
me somewhere around the world in twenty twenty six. It's
gonna be great, all right. So tonight, well, this year
this is crazy. It's the fiftieth anniversary of the Travis
Walton abduction. Yeah, and wow, right, fifty years. Let's put

(03:53):
that into context a little bit. If if let's say
it's nineteen sixty, then that anniversary would have been before
World War One. Let's say it's nineteen ninety five and
it's the fiftieth anniversary, that would have been World War two.

(04:15):
And we when we get into modern times like now, right,
we're in twenty twenty five, nineteen seventy five is modern history.
It's fifty years ago. Now. That is nuts to me.
And Travis is still here. He's still with us fifty
years after that abduction. And I hope that we can

(04:39):
get Travis in tonight. But we do have a filmmaker,
Jennifer Stein here. She directed the film Travis and Those
not only Travis well, but the case really well too
as well. So we're gonna be talking about that and
also her event that is coming up, which is the

(04:59):
Skyfires Summit, and Bill and John and Jennifer. I put
up the link in the chat to the Skyfire Summit.
If you can copy that and pop it back into
the chat right now, it is coming up and it
is also it's coming up October seventeenth through Monday October

(05:24):
twentieth in Sedona, Arizona. And the speakers are David Childers,
Ron James, Stacy Wright, Melinda Leslie, Don Schmidt, and of
course Jennifer and Travis. And we'll talk about that too
a bit more. And I just want to get straight
to it and get Jennifer in here. There she is
right there, Jennifer, how you doing. It's been a minute, it's.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
Been it as but you're looking great, Jimmy. Great to
connect with you and thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, I don't look as good as you. And are
you were you? Were you begging for that? Were you
hoping for that? Were you hoping for that? Jennifer? You glow,
you glow, glow glow. I'm not going to yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(06:13):
yeah yeah, I'm not going to bring any Yeah, I'm
not going to bring the yoga up. But but I should,
I should, I should, I should bring Well here's the
thing I watched Jennifer. Jennifer and I are about the
same age, and Jennifer don't say anything, but we're about
the same age. And I'm watching Jennifer. We were in

(06:38):
Mexico or some we were.

Speaker 4 (06:41):
We were on a cruise.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
We were on a cruise, right, right, And was it Mexico?

Speaker 4 (06:45):
I think so, yes, we were going to Mexico.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
We were going to Mexico.

Speaker 4 (06:50):
One of the ports was closed due to a plane crash.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
I think, oh, that's right. I forgot about that. I
don't even remember what city. Okay, a plane crash. Yeah,
well that's what happened.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
So, yeah, canceled. So we were at a conference on
a cruise. So we did an extra day of conference.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, we did an extra day. And so Jennifer is
doing a yoga demonstration and a yoga thing, and I'm
saying I'm watching. Okay, I really don't want to get
into the details of this, but my eyes popped out
of my head and I said, how can a human
do this? Jennifer goes, It's easy. I've been doing this

(07:35):
my whole life. Was like, oh my god, and uh
just just an incredible shape. Yoga is amazing. It's amazing,
it's amazing.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
It helps aging women.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, I'm so embarrassed right now. You're not. I am.
I'm like uncomfortable. I was like, wow, yoga and this
is the thing, Okay, this is the I was like,
I will never be able to do that. That's a fact.

Speaker 4 (08:07):
That is a fact me as you know, thoughts are things,
so well, I love the belief. Then that's true.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, true, true, true true. I was
with what is today Today's Monday. I was with a
group of friends on Saturday morning and two of them,
one a woman, the other a man. Partners were on

(08:39):
their way to yoga class, and I was like, dude,
you do yoga? And he goes, yeah, I do. I
was looking at him. I was like, I don't know
if you know what that word means, man, just looking
at but yeah yeah, and Jimmy, we've got to get
you into it. I was like, nah, no, you don't, no,
you do maybe I will someday, Jennifer, Okay, so let's

(09:01):
let's get into this. I just told everybody Travis is
traveling to Montreal. He may be in Montreal now. He
obviously knows about the show. If he pops in, I'm
just letting everybody know if he comes. If Travis manages
to do this, I will bring him straight into the show.
He knows what to do and things happen, you know. So,

(09:26):
But Jennifer, lots of lots of things have been going
on in the UFO community lately, and it sounds like
I'm repeating myself week after week after week because we
have had maybe five or six or seven pretty amazing

(09:47):
years an amazing week since twenty seventeen. Everything is just
blowing up out of the water. You've been doing this
for a very long time, not only with your with
your film work, but your research and and your career
and your investigations.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
Two thousand and one.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, yeah, can it get crazier? It can? Can it?

Speaker 4 (10:13):
I guess? You know, we never think again, but then
we're always surprised.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
I know this week, well, yeah, last week was pretty amazing.
And we may get into that a little bit. I
just mentioned in the intro, and it's just a weird
thing to think about. Travis and his subduction are now

(10:40):
fifty years fifty years. That's crazy, isn't it. I mean,
because it's a modern case and now we have to
consider that it's now fifty years, fifty years. It's nuts.
It's crazy, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
Yep?

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (10:56):
It's very hard to wrap our brain around it. And
what that means is that most of the population was
not around when this event happened. You know, there's less
and less of us that were. And that's kind of
how history goes. Things tend to fade off into the
distant past.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Fade to black, Yeah, fade to black.

Speaker 4 (11:19):
But his case is really significant and important, and that's
why I really did the documentary because I because no
one else had, and I thought we need to leave
something to the annals of history besides Fire and the Sky.
Travis was not happy with the Fire in the Sky film.
I mean overall, he was, but not one hundred percent

(11:40):
because of how they fictionalize certain parts of the story,
which wasn't necessary. So the documentary will stand as a
testament to time and for younger generations. I think it
really brings them in because it's a personal story, you know,
a personal evolution story rather than just UFO factual story.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Right, Yeah, for sure. And we've got the links of
for the film below everybody, and you can click there
if you haven't seen the film.

Speaker 4 (12:10):
Yeah, it's called Travis The True Story of Travis Walton.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yep, yep. It's an incredible documentary. I remember a few
things about that one. I remember when it came out
to you and Travis signed a copy of it for me,
which I have, and I've watched it many many times
before I had you on the show about the film.

(12:36):
I watched it then, but I've watched it many times since.
And that documentary let's stay right there because people really
need to go and see it. If you're interested in
Travis Walton, it's a must. But if you have an
interest in this subject, not only with et and contact
and disclosure, but the abduction phenomenon in general, this is

(12:57):
an absolute required viewing. You have to But your approach
to this documentary and how you managed to get all
most of I should say, the key players together. You
took a different approach to this film, didn't you.

Speaker 4 (13:15):
Yes, Yes, And I really have to credit my nephew
Adam Stein and his cohort that helped him, Zach Wile.
They did an incredible job taking a four hour film
that I had in October of twenty fourteen, and in
a month and a half so I could make the
Open Minds Festival deadline in December, they edited that film

(13:38):
down to the hour and a half that you see,
and it was really their skill set far above and
beyond mine. I mean, yes, I know how to hold
a camera, and yes I know how to edit, but
knowing how to really tell a story, especially an incredible
story like Travis's, and knowing how to turn it into
a personal journey story like they did was very special

(14:02):
and that's what helped it be a breakthrough film, really, Jimmy,
because a lot of films about UFOs do not make
it into mainstream film festivals. And as I started to
put this film out, it was immediately accepted into film
festivals that don't even take UFO films, you know, like
Burbank Film Festival, Chelsea, like other places like that, Orlando

(14:27):
Film Festival, and it started winning and I was, of
course thrilled. But it's because of the approach that the
editors took. I mean with me guiding them of course
as well. But when you get really talented people together
that put the best that they have into a project,
that's when you get real incredible results.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Monica says, put out the four hour version, I would watch.

Speaker 4 (14:52):
That theory that could be.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, yeah, I see. But that's the other thing with
good editors, Yes, and they have too much material. Well,
then you get the best of the best and they
tie all of that together. And you can feel that
in the film. I mean, there's no there's no dead
spaces in there. If you know what I mean, you

(15:17):
know what I'm saying. But the film is riveting from
start to finish.

Speaker 4 (15:23):
Yeah, and there's even some really incredible pieces that we
didn't put in the film that we may end up
speaking about tonight, but little tidbits of factual information that
you know, pop up or have come up since we
produce the film. When you have a really good story,
the more you dig, the more you find.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Let's let's start there for a second, and let's see
where this conversation goes before I ask you, and I'm
not you know, how did you get into this? How
did you know? You know what? Okay, we'll save that
for the four hour documentary. We won't do that. But
Javas's case stands out for so many different reasons, and

(16:08):
the list is long, and each one of them is
probably just as important as anything else. That's how strong
the case is. Let's start there with the first night
and everybody, you know, the logging crew. They're in the
truck and they're taking the drive and they see something

(16:30):
in the trees, don't they.

Speaker 4 (16:32):
Yes, they're leaving the work area, which is in a valley,
which is important to note, the Turkey Springs Valley, and
they have to drive about fifteen minutes through the rough forest.
There's basically a cleared path. It's not a road, it's
a cleared path through the forest to get up to
what's called the Rim Road at the top of the

(16:55):
Mogion Rim, which is a seven thousand foot plateau just
from parts of New Mexico into northern eastern Arizona and
up into Utah and Colorado. And it's the largest Ponderosa
pine forest in the world.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
And so yeah, they're leaving. They're on a path kind
of like a dirt road, a well traveled path that
their work truck is on. Everybody the crews in there.
It's a double cab pickup truck. So we're in the back,

(17:30):
three in the front. For of I've done that a lot.
I did it to smoke weed, though in the in
the seventies and eighties, didn't do it for logging. Oh,
but have you I'm just imagining. See back then, cars
and trucks were different. So when we say three in

(17:51):
the front, four in the back, that was kind of
the norm. The back seat was always a couch, right,
and and so that's what we have here. We've got
seven logging men, four in the back, three in the front,
bouncing through the woods in very very remote area and

(18:13):
their job they were contracted to clear timber and deadwood.

Speaker 4 (18:20):
Correct.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
So they're heading up the road.

Speaker 4 (18:22):
What happens, So they start to see a light in
the top of the canopy of the trees ahead of them,
which is very unusual because there's no electric there, there's
no cabins, nobody lives there, and a forest fire would
be down on the ground, it wouldn't be in the
canopy of the trees. And they think it's a small

(18:43):
plane crash which has caught fire and is stuck in
the canopy of the trees, and they start to get
confused and maybe a little panicked, like, what the heck
is that? Because it's a very odd light, bright bright
like fire like light. That's why Fire in the Sky
was the name of the film. So they turn around,

(19:03):
see it's not the moon. It's certainly not Venus or
Jupiter or anything like that. So they hurry up to
see what this possibly could be. And they get up
to the area where they can see light streaming across
their path. And because there was a canopy clearing created
by a large tree that was taken down a year

(19:23):
or two before, and this left a forty foot diameter
in the canopy of the trees, and they're sitting about
twenty feet off the ground. Hiding in this canopy was
a disc shaped UFO. Clear as day. They all saw it.
They all knew it was a UFO. They all screamed,
it's a breaking UFO. You know, It's like there was

(19:46):
no way they were going to think it was a
moon or a corvette or an airplane or any I mean,
they all knew it. And Travis wanted a really good
look at it because he figured it was going to
take off any minute he was in the front passing
your seat, he flew open the door of the truck
and ran up a hill about one hundred yards, basically
putting himself in pretty close proximity to the craft, less

(20:10):
than fifteen feet from the craft, fifteen or twenty feet.
Because he said, you could have taken a stone and
easily thrown it.

Speaker 1 (20:16):
At this thing right now, and it's.

Speaker 4 (20:19):
Not tie enough. He might even have been able to.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Touch it exactly exactly. And I think it's at this
point that we all have the same thought. Would you
would you? Would you? Would? You know? Would? Yeah? Do
you know? How many times? I know? I know, I know.
I mean, it's just that the opportunity like that, an

(20:44):
opportunity like that that presented itself. You're in the passenger seat,
You've got the door handle in your head, right, you're
looking at this thing, all right? Do you do you? Travis? Right?
Do you travel? I'm going to ask you that, do
you travel? Do you jump out?

Speaker 4 (21:02):
Well? Yeah, listen, He's been asked that question so many times.
He thinks if he'd had a do over, he probably wouldn't,
But he had been known to jump out of the truck.
A few weeks before when a bear was in the
middle of the road and he was trying to get
the bear out of the way so they could drive by,
and he jumped out and like put his arms up.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
That's even that's even dumber. Yes, that's even dumber. But Jennifer,
would you jump out? Would you run?

Speaker 2 (21:29):
Ooh?

Speaker 4 (21:29):
I don't know, you know, it's one of those things
you just don't know what you're going to do in
the situation. I had had sightings, and I was pretty
freaked out when I had the sightings that I had,
but I didn't really move. I just stayed there and
studied him.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. If I don't, I'm.

Speaker 4 (21:50):
Curious enough to I'd like to think I was brave
enough to me too.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
Me.

Speaker 4 (21:55):
The other guy's in the truck, you know, like one
that like was on the floorboards in the back, you know,
flat didn't want to even look at it. Was so
freaked out by this, and a lot of people forget
all these loggers were Mormon, so they have very different
you know, strict family community belief systems and whatnot. And

(22:18):
they were all accused of lying and making up this story.
It was very difficult for all of them.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Now, I I mean if I was invited onto a
craft to go to another planet, I probably would if
if certain things were met at certain things, you know,
like food and can I come back? Is this a
one way trip?

Speaker 2 (22:44):
You know?

Speaker 1 (22:44):
I would need to answer a few things. But how
do you pass up that kind of opportunity? And some people,
and this is to Travis's credit, some people are first. Okay,
some people cross the Atlantic Ocean first. Some people climb

(23:06):
that mountain first after many have died, right right, Many
ships have sun many lots of peril, right, but there's
always somebody who was first. And there's you know, somebody
that's going to go back. Here. I'll get classic example,

(23:28):
the original Astronauts, those original crazy as men, right, crazy
John Glenn, Gordon Cooper, right, all of those guys Shepherd,
all of those guys that climbed up into that mercury

(23:48):
capsule when they lit the fuse on the bottom of
that thing, right, they're blasting it. There's no guarantee. Well,
you know some people have that there, okay with it?
And and Travis must have that gene in his DNA
where he's going to jump out and go check this out.

(24:09):
Most people wouldn't do that. Travis did. And then you
had the six boys in the truck. Yeah, freaking out,
freaking out, freaking out. Now, help me out here. I
know the story well, not like you, of course, but
I've always pictured a few things in my mind. And

(24:30):
Travis has been on the show many times. We've talked
about this, and you know, I think he's modified. He
hasn't changed his story, but I think he's modified his
view of the abduction, which is fine. I mean, you know,
time heals a lot of things. So but anyway, so Travis,

(24:53):
he gets he gets blasted something. Yeah, he gets blasted.
He's knocked, He's knocked ten twenty feet backwards onto his.

Speaker 4 (25:02):
Back, thrown backwards.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Thrown backwards. And Rogers was driving, right, it was his truck, Yes,
his frigging brother in law, right, or I mean it
wasn't that. It wasn't at that point.

Speaker 4 (25:19):
It was skating at that point.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
But they went but they were, but they were, they
were as tight as they could be. You know, Mike
Rogers hits the gas and they all scream, and they
leave Travis for dead, don't they They do.

Speaker 4 (25:36):
But you know, Travis has never held that against Mike,
and he's always said to Mike, you did the right
thing because you were responsible for the lives of those
other six men and you needed to save them, which
is exactly what he did. So he gunned the trucks.
They slammed the door of the truck when Travis got
hit by the beam. They drove up to the top

(25:57):
of the Mogian Room, which was took him about eight
minutes or so. Set six minutes, you know, maybe a
quarter of a mile. They had to go through the
forest and they got up there and then Mike said
to the crew, Okay, you guys, get out, take some
gas cans. Build a fire in the middle of the
dirt road here the gravel road if you want stay warm,
because it's dark by that point, and I've got to

(26:19):
turn the truck around. I have to go back. I
am responsible for Travis, so he immediately knew that. And
as they were directing Mike to turn the truck around
in the forest, which wasn't easy to do in pitch darkness.
You could get it easily stuck, the undercarriage of it
stuck on a stump somewhere or something. You know, it's
hard to see. He turned the truck around, and they're

(26:41):
all watching this thing because they're now above it. They're
on the top of the rim looking down in the
valley and they can see it. It's still there, and
they're watching it to make sure it's not following them,
and they see it fly away. That's the thing a
lot of people don't realize. They don't get it. They
all saw take off. Then they all jumped back in

(27:01):
the truck and they all went back with Mike. Immediately.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
What a bunch of whoosies. Whoosi's, whoosy's woosy. They only
went back because they saw a flyaway. Actually, good good movies.
I can't imagine. I tried to put myself, Jennifer, as
you have, into everybody's position on this. I understand every side.

(27:27):
I totally do. I understand why Mike Rogers did what
he did. I also understand why they went back. You
just can't leave Travis, you can't do that, and so anyway,
but so much was put on them leaving him in

(27:48):
the first place, that they shouldn't have done. That they
should have stuck around. That is easy criticism, that's easy
in the moment. I understand every side of it. I
do so anyway, so they turn around, they go back,
and what happens next.

Speaker 4 (28:08):
There's no sign of Travis anywhere. There's no sign of
his footprints anywhere moving from where he landed. They can
see his footprints where he ran up, you know, to
where the craft was, but they can't find him, and
they start screaming and hollering for him. A couple of
the guys start crying. They start freaking out because they

(28:31):
know it's now getting cold. It's November. It's the temperatures
dropping quickly, so it's like thirty degrees. Now. Travis didn't
have a coat on. He had a jean jacket on.
That was it. I mean during the day, it's warm
enough to work up there, and they're working full you know.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Well it's November. It's November. It's freezing.

Speaker 4 (28:51):
Well, it can be at night, and it can also
snow up there that time.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Maybe.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Ye, it's called snowflake for a reason.

Speaker 4 (28:57):
Yeah, exactly. Well not not because of the snow. It's
two people, snow and flake. But so anyway, they can't
find him, and they have to drive to town and
report him missing. And that's a forty five minute drive
to Hebrew in a switchback road down off this seven
thousand foot rim, and you can imagine what's going through

(29:18):
their minds as they're driving. Like some of them have
had little rough scuffs with the law. You know, one
or two of them had taken a joy ride and
a car that was unlocked when they were fourteen or fifteen, right,
and you know they they were like, oh my god,
they're going to put us all in jail. And they
were right, because that's kind of the reaction that the

(29:41):
sheriff and the marshall had, like, what do you mean
you lost a member of your crew on Beyond Rim?
What do you mean you saw a Ufoh? Like, what
are you smoking? Guys? You know, have you been drinking?
That's the first thing that Deputy Ellison, Chuck Allison said
to them. He started sniffing for alcohol and marijuana. He

(30:02):
started looking in the back of the truck. And then
he said, all right, you guys are all going to
go back up there with me and find him tonight.
Once they reported him missing and the guys refused, they.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
Were they actually split, didn't they Like three went three
went with and three went over to Mike Rogers house.

Speaker 4 (30:19):
Right, Yes, yes, well three actually went home. I think
they drove Mike's truck home to their own home, and
Mike and two of the other crew members I think
Alan Dallas and maybe Kenny Peters, I'm not exactly sure,
stayed on with Chuck Allison. I went back up to
the forest, and they were looking for Travis till close

(30:41):
till midnight, and when they couldn't find him, then Chuck
Ellison drove to Travis's mother's home and at that point
she was staying in a cabin up in the forest,
but it was still an hour's drive to get to her,
to report that Travis was missing, and to report what

(31:02):
the boys had seen.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
The the how do I say this when something like
this usually happens, There's two ways to look at it,
all right, but both versions or somebody's covering something up.

(31:26):
Something illegal has happened and one of you or all
of you are suspects, or something else illegal happened and
you're covering it up. Whatever, And the other illegal thing
could be anything, could have a drug deal gone bad
and he was kidnapped by Mexican drug deal whatever, you
know what, whatever it is, right, But that's that's how

(31:49):
missing persons cases like this start. Everybody's a suspect. And
that was exactly what was going on here was because
you're going to go up and this is let's continue
with the story. They go up for the search, and
if you're Mike Rogers, how do you do this? Well,
if you're telling the truth, Jennifer, you go and go Okay,

(32:13):
So the truck was there, the flying saucer was right here, right,
and Travis was right here, and then the bean came
down and blew him. That's that's crazy for Mike Rogers
to have to do that, But you have to tell
the truth, no matter how crazy the truth is.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Right.

Speaker 4 (32:32):
Kenny Peters was the one who made the phone call.
He volunteered out of all the crews. He was very
religious and still is to this day, and he was
very clear about his own integrity and his own honesty,
and he said, look, I'll stand in my truth. I
will tell them what I saw and they can do
whatever they want to me. But I know what we

(32:53):
saw and I know what happened. So that's what they
all had to do. They had to stand in their truth.
Was what I would say, a quick integrity lesson for
all of them, because they were accused of murdering Travis,
cutting in his body up and burying him under some
of these wooden slash files they had were setting up
for burning in December, November, and January when the snowfalls.

(33:17):
That's the timber stand Improvement way of life there. So
it was very difficult for them because they were all
each the next day assigned to a search party to
go looking for Travis. So each of the crew members
had to show up and had to participate in the search,

(33:38):
and that was specifically designed by Chuck Ellison and Marlon Gillespie,
so that midway during the day, the deputy would push
one of the logging crew members up against a tree
and say, okay, look, let me tell you. Let me
tell you how it's going to go down. Maybe you
didn't fell the tree on him or cut his arm

(33:59):
off act or whatever. Right, maybe you didn't, but some
one of you did. And if you don't come clean
about who it was, you're all going to stand trial.
You can all go to the electric chair, you can
all hang Travis is there's no evidence that Travis is here.
And I mean they brought out dogs to smell and

(34:22):
track for him. They had people on horseback, they had
Navajo Search and Rescue. There was roughly one hundred people
a day looking for him for four full days before
they pulled off the search party. And the fifth day
they gave the guys polygraph test because the guys all said, look,
if you don't believe me, give me a polygraph test.
I'll take it right, Give me sodium pentehal do whatever

(34:44):
you want. This is what I saw, and stop telling
me I'm responsible for his murder, because I'm not. So
they got angry, and as a result of that, cy
Gilson came in and did polygraph examinations with all the men.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
Well let's let's come back to that, because we're getting
a little ahead of our skis because by that, no no, no, no, no, no,
no no. What I mean is each one of these
steps needs to be fully talked through because it was
all extraordinary, and to think about what the town was

(35:23):
going through. Everybody knows everybody, and you've got so many
law enforcement agencies involved, and and how do I want
to say that investigators that don't play around, and they
they prided themselves on solving things, and they this was

(35:46):
going to get solved. So we'll circle back to that.
How did Travis's mom, his brother, and his sister, his family.
How did they react when they got woken up that
morning and got the news about Travis.

Speaker 4 (36:03):
Well, it was certainly a family dilemma for sure. His
older brother Don was really angry and didn't believe the
story of a UFO. His younger brother Dwayne, who lived
in Phoenix, had actually seen something when he was growing
up as well, somewhere near this at Graves Forest, and

(36:24):
he kind of thought, oh, wow, you know, that's interesting.
Dwayne got in the car immediately and drove up and
started to say with Travis's sister who lived near Hebrew,
not too far from Hebrew, so they all were involved
in the search. His mother showed up. In fact, Dana,
who was, you know, Mike Rogers' younger sister. She had

(36:49):
a friend or a family member or cousin who knew
that there were dogs that could track a cent and
got Marlon Gillespie to get the these dogs from the
Arizona State Prison system to come and look for his scent.
And I think she did that to help kind of
protect her brother, but also she was already in love

(37:11):
with Travis at that point and they were dating, and
I think she wanted him to be found and she
wanted to marry him. What she did when he was returned,
so many many, many people were involved. His mom had composure.
I would say many people say that she reacted inappropriately,
but I don't think she did. She was a divorced

(37:34):
woman raising I think four children of her own, and
had some adopted children or fostered children that lived with
her as well.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
It helped.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
What is inappropriate, blase, I mean, what's in an inappropriate reaction?
No emotion.

Speaker 4 (37:53):
People accused her of saying that, oh, he'll be returned
by the UFO, and I'm not ware. She was, of
course very worried and very concerned, but she had to
hold it together. I mean she was a single mom
raising a bunch of kids. And Travis was actually working
logging because he could make more money, and he started

(38:14):
that probably when he was about fifteen or sixteen, so
he could help support the family. That's what young kids
did in northern Arizona in nineteen seventy five. If they
were loyal and dutiful and they cared for their parents,
they went out and did what they could to help
support the family.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Now, Mike, Mike Rogers has got to call the Forestry
Service and go, well, I guess that contract's not going
to get filled after all.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
You know, it didn't.

Speaker 4 (38:40):
He didn't call the forestry.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
No, I'm saying, that's the dilemma he faced right well
after he.

Speaker 4 (38:47):
Was accused of That's what he was accused of doing
by Philip Class. But there was no evidence of that.
And the thing is, there was no benefit to not
finishing the contract because nobody got paid if they didn't finish.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
And a big part of this show is going to
be spent on ragging on Philip Class. I have no problems.
I have no problems using airtime for that. So the
next day, okay, phone calls are made. Mom's called, Dwayne
don sister, girlfriend, town, everybody's alerted. We've got the local police,

(39:24):
local law enforcement. They're getting ready to call in the
heavy hitters. But as you just mentioned.

Speaker 4 (39:31):
And remember it breaks in the news, it breaks in
the news.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
Well, so the next as.

Speaker 4 (39:37):
A possible homicide, right as a UFO story, and as
a missing person story. So it's all three in one
and a UFO you know dilemma. So it's like whoa
and that goes international immediately, it does it does Walter Cronkite,
I think broke it on the evening news and my god,

(39:58):
the phones in the whole Brooks alehouse didn't stop ringing
off the hook. And I cover that in my film
both Marlon and Chuck Ellison.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Did you do you do you remember the hysteria? I do.

Speaker 4 (40:15):
I didn't know about it at the time. I was
nineteen when this happened.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
I really only learned about it when the Fire in
the Sky movie came out and I was like, Wow,
isn't that interesting?

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Oh I I I read saw. I was soaking it up.
I was probably thirteen. I think.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
You know.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
At the time, this has been this is hot news man,
alien abductions, UFOs. It was. It was crazy, the media
coverage that was on in and around this case. But
the next day fifty. It started with fifty. They've got
fifty or so.

Speaker 4 (41:01):
Volunteers, groups of ten the break up, shoulder to shoulder,
walking around looking for any trace of Travis anywhere. They
have people on horseback, they have helicopters looking for him.
You know. Far Afield Navajo Search and Rescue was also
getting involved and they are helping because it's Navajo land

(41:22):
up there. In many, many parts of the forest.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
And here's the crazy part about that. They didn't know it,
but they weren't going to find anything. Right, Dravis is
not there. He went from where he landed on his
back to leaving the planet. There's They weren't going to

(41:46):
find his shoes. They weren't going to pick up his scent.
They were not you know what I mean. But they
had to search. But can you imagine in a normal search,
you're going to find little things here and there and
maybe pick up on something, and the dogs are going
to pick up But none of that happened, did it.

Speaker 4 (42:04):
They didn't pick up his scent anywhere besides where he
was working that day and then where he jumped out
of the truck. But also keep in mind the fringe
festival started to happen as well. So we had all
these different UFO groups that showed up on their own.
There were people from app pro that showed up, there
were people from Ground sauceror Research that showed up, and

(42:28):
there were some unidentified government people who showed up with
the trifild meter readers and radiation detectors and they detected that.
I don't think they got a large radiation read but
something in the forest. Then Mike Rogers saw them and said, hey,
you know, we've all washed our clothes and you know,

(42:49):
taken a shower, but our hard hats are still in
the back of the truck here. Why don't you, you know,
see if anything shows up on my truck or on
our hard hats. And it did. The Geiger counter went
way up right away. And as soon as that happened,
these unidentified people packed up their equipment and left faster

(43:10):
than you could say Jimminy cricket. And even the police
didn't know who they were. That's interesting to me day.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
You know what I just remembered. Robert Patrick played Mike
Rogers in the film So Yest's Start up the Street?
Really yeah, yeah, he owns I'm a Harley guy and
he owns the local Harley dealership here.

Speaker 4 (43:37):
Oh yeah, we should have had him on the show.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
Easy there, I can't reveal, you know, just suggesting that
everybody's going to go, well, Patrick's going to be on
the show soon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but he played he
played Mike Rogers. It was it was a pretty good cast.
And I know that I'm going to get back to uh,
Robert Patrick just popped in my head, and I don't

(44:03):
want to get two sideways here. Some people have been
critical of the film. I never was. I felt that
Hollywood did what Hollywood does, all right. So but the
basic part of this entire thing is Travis logging crew,

(44:32):
his his family, Mike Rogers right, all of that leaving
him coming back for him. He has gone, They go
to town, they call the police, Travis shows up five
days later. All of that is represented in the film.
What's happened in between with Travis on the ship and
the artistic license, well, you know what, they gotta sell tickets.

(44:56):
But the basic, the basic parts of the story are
all there in the film and well done. And that
includes James Garner too as well. I thought that he
was good. Thought dB Swaeney was great. I didn't have
any issues with dB Sweeney. So I mean, that's that's
my take.

Speaker 4 (45:14):
But uh, I will agree with you. I think it
really uh portrayed the drama that all these families and
these loggers went through, and the conundrum and there in
their own consciousness of struggling to stick with their integrity
and their truth and saying, look, I know you don't
believe me, and that's okay. I can accept that, but

(45:37):
I'm not gonna lie because you don't believe me. And
if you need me to take a lie detection test,
I'll do it. But don't accuse me of murdering Travis
because I haven't.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Now let's uh, let's let's uh kind of where we
left off, but we started to get into the polygraphs.
James Garner plays what's the detective's.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
Name, Marlon Gillespie, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
Marlin Gillespie. So Garner rolls into town. It plays his
role by the way he plays. He plays a dick
really well in the movie. No, he does right, he's
he's got that down. But he needs to intimidate and
he needs to let everybody know here that he means
business and he just wants to get to the truth.

(46:26):
And so that's kind of where things are left with
everybody in the film. I'm doing this for the audience.
Everybody's in a bar, right, they're in a restaurant and
they're sitting talking to Gillespie. Was that accurate? Was that
part of the film? And the way Gillespie approached the

(46:48):
logging crew was that faithful?

Speaker 4 (46:52):
I can tell you I only met Marlin when he
was in his seventies. I didn't know him when he
was in his forties, but he was a highly highly
respected police sheriff in Holbrook. And when I read his obituary,
I saw how many organizations he was involved in and
the type of charities and things he did for the town.

(47:16):
So I suspect that he was not as aggressive or
as mean spirited.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
TuS tenacious, yeah.

Speaker 4 (47:26):
Assertive, yeah, but he was smart and he was certainly
going to do his job and he wasn't going to
be told what to do by anybody else. He was
going to investigate it thoroughly.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
The polygraphs were introduced fairly quickly. It was suggested, then
it was thought about and then agreed to on all sides. Right,
that's pretty much how it went down. When in law enforcement,
the accuracy of a polygraph doesn't matter. I think for

(48:00):
law enforcement, it's the threat of the polygraph that freaks
people out. Right, No, I'm being serious, I'm being serious.
And so.

Speaker 4 (48:09):
Yeah, and the boys were frightened, some of them were
really quite frightened to take it. In fact, none of it.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
That's the see, that's my point, right, you'll get somebody
to crack. So what happens.

Speaker 4 (48:21):
So the first one they give a polygraph test to
is Steve Pierce because he's only seventeen. He's actually not
old enough to be working on the logging crew, which
gets revealed. But he's helping his family, right, he's doing
the what young men do, and they assumed that he
would crack because he was the youngest. He was the

(48:43):
most frightened, and he didn't want to go back to
the forest and he didn't want to go look for Travis.
And he passed. He was the first one to take
the test, and that got cy Gilson's attention. He was like, hmm, okay,
and that didn't go the way I thought. So then
he gradually starts to go through the different crew members
when he gets to Alan Dallas. Alan is one of

(49:06):
those people who had a small scrape with the law
when he was probably fourteen or fifteen, and he was
convinced they were just looking for a way to throw
him at jail.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
He was a he was he was always even in
Travis's in the book, he was an outlier.

Speaker 4 (49:22):
Yes, he was a.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Bit of a rebel.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
If you guys were not all good friends, you know,
they work together but they weren't buddies. They didn't all,
you know, go drinking together, you know, or something like that.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
They're all here's the other thing, they're all hard asses,
dudes that are firing up chainsaws, logging and clearing force.
You don't mess with no, no, no no. And so
you are going to have these different types of personalities.

(49:53):
And like I said, Dallas was kind of an outlier.
He had some issues and he didn't like.

Speaker 4 (49:59):
Law enforcement, and he had some jealousy issues with Travis.
So he was the one that they suspected could have
actually harmed Travis because there was an incident that is
portrayed in Fire in the Sky that is true where
Alan was cutting a tree and it fell too close
to where Travis was working. Now, the thing is, when
you got seven chainsaws going, you can't say hey, Travis,

(50:23):
look out, He's never going to hear you. So you
have to know what you're doing and you have to
fell if it's a big tree, you got to make
sure no one's everyone's paying attention to what you're doing
and it's not going to fall where it's going to
hurt anybody. And as a logger, you've got to be
looking around you at all times, like okay, am I okay?

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Here?

Speaker 4 (50:41):
Am I okay? There? What's he doing? Where do I
go next? What do I do? So they have to
work together as a team, and Alan dropped a tree
way too close to Travis and it startled everyone, and
so there was a bit of tension there already that day.
So that is true, and that was depicted in the film.
But when we get to the lie detection process, Alan

(51:04):
doesn't really understand the rules, even though they explain it
to him, like we're going to ask you the same
question like twenty times, and after he answered the same
question like five times, he's like, gosh, darn it, I
already answered that question, like what are you doing? And
he pulled off all the equipment and walked out of
the room. So he didn't finish his first lie detection

(51:26):
test with sy Gilson. His is considered incomplete. It wasn't
considered false or failed. It's no result because he didn't
follow through with the test. But then he eventually did
and passed.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
But he was suspect number one.

Speaker 4 (51:46):
Yes, he was suspect number one absolutely, and then the
other guys were considered that they were protecting him.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's portrayed pretty well. But now
when we look back historically, believe it against fifty years
and we're in twenty twenty five. Dallas continued to play
his outlier role for the rest of his life, didn't.

Speaker 4 (52:10):
He Yes, he did.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
He didn't change. No, he was. He never wore a mask,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (52:19):
Yes, I did. Yes, he died long before COVID We're
not talking about COVID Y for longer generations watching. Yes,
Oh man, he never you know, you saw who he
was when you were with him. Yes, and what I
never met Alan he died before and.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
He's the only one that's not in the film, right.

Speaker 4 (52:40):
Yes, Well, actually there are two that have passed. Alan
Dallas had passed and another logging crew member had passed.
I was able to do five of them. Yeah, but
two had passed, Alan Dallas and another one I'm blanking

(53:00):
on his name. I'm sorry, that's okay, but.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
That's another reason for uh, I mean for me. I'm
just saying this to the audience. I'm so intrigued with
the case. But to get like I said at the
front of this show, to get everybody together, all the
major actors in one of the most not actors players

(53:27):
in the story and one of the most extraordinary contact
and abduction cases in history. That is, that's unbelievable to
pull that off, and that's what makes and I'm going
to say this too, I want everybody to see the film.
If you haven't seen it, it's been wait a minute,
it's been ten years since the film came out. Yes

(53:48):
it has wow wow wow, Yes.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
I make it now it's the fiftieth And you know what, Jimmy,
I am so glad I did because we have lost now.
John Goulette just passed and I think about six seven
months ago, and we also have lost the two police
officers and the polygraph expert too. So Chuck Ellison died

(54:12):
about a year and a half or two years ago.
Marlon Gillespie died in twenty sixteen, just after the film
came out, and we no longer have Chuck. Well, Chuck,
Marlon and sy Gilson are all gone.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
Now.

Speaker 4 (54:28):
I'm very glad I got to know them, I got
to meet them, I got to interview them, I got
to speak with their wives, and you know, in many
cases be in their homes and really lovely people who
were very touched by this story as well. I mean
it changed many people's lives. It had to, you know,
just you once you accepted the facts of it and

(54:52):
you digested the facts, and let me tell you, Snowflake did.
And they still kind of wanted to push it away,
like the town even.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
They're yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
You don't want to like really deal with it.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
I I've had very honored to have spent a lot
of time with Travis over the years and at many
different events and things. But one night, I think you
were there.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
It was.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
The International Symposium in Irvine, which would have been like
twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. Travis was there anyway. So I'm
out with all the Fader Knots on this patio outside
and there was like twenty of us at this you know,
we've got a bunch of you know, what's going on,

(55:45):
and so we got all these and Travis comes up
to us and it's got a suit on all right,
comes up and he goes, he goes, is it okay
if I sit with you guys? And the fader knots
right right? It was crazy, and Travis sit and we
said Travis sat with us for like three or four

(56:08):
hours and just talked all night, and it was one
of those rare moments. Jennifer or I didn't say shit,
I just I just I just sat back and watched
everybody ask him questions, not necessarily somewhere about his case,
but about him his life. What does he think about contact?

(56:30):
What does he think about the system? And his people
don't see that side of Travis. They don't. Everybody wants
to know what he had to eat or drink on
the ship, you know, they want, you know what I mean,
But they don't ask about Travis the person, and he is.
He is so intelligent. You know. He's not a lumberjack man.

(56:56):
He's not.

Speaker 4 (56:57):
He's a family man. He has fourteen or eighteen grandchildren
something like that, and one of us grandchildren is traveling
with him to Montreal.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
He sent me, he sent me a picture. I have
it somewhere. I should have thought about it. I would
have had it ready to go. He sent me this
picture in this email. He goes, hey, man, check it out.
And it's Travis in his living room wearing a fade
to black shirt, vacuuming the rug. He's vacuuming with a

(57:30):
fade to black shirt and he's just like and it's
a class. It's one of my favorite favorite images. Okay,
so but back to this, then we're gonna take a
quick break because of we have suspect number one and
the polygraphs go through and or happen and all but

(57:52):
Dallas is everybody passed? Yes, everybody passed. And how did
Gillaspie take that?

Speaker 4 (58:00):
Well, he had to swallow the truth along with sy
Gilson that these guys were probably telling the truth. And
when we come back from our break, I will tell
you the questions I asked both Marlon and Chuck about
their own UFO experiences.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Oh that's going to be fantastic. Oh check this out.
Donna from Kentucky says Robert Patrick is related to Mike
Rogers in real life.

Speaker 4 (58:31):
I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
I didn't know that either. I'm gonna ask Robert about that. Wow.
Yeah wow, So I guess he didn't even have to audition. Yeah, man,
all right, I mean Jimmy cheerch tonight, Jennifer Stein is here.
Travis Walton, who's supposed to be with us, is traveling
to Montreal. It's probably in between the airport and a hotel.

(58:55):
But if he is able to get in, we will
get him on. In the meantime, we have the one
and only Jennifer Stein with us. She is the director
of the film Travis and it's fifty years. It's the anniversary.
Her event is coming up in October and it is
the Skyfire Summit October seventeenth through October twentieth in Sedona, Arizona.

(59:18):
We had the links for that in the chat here
on our website and in the description box below. I'm here,
Jimmy Church, Jennifer, stay right there, don't go anywhere. We'll
be right back after this short break. Stay with us.
Oh do I have it ready? I do not, So
we're going to do it this way. Be right back.

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(01:02:02):
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going on?

Speaker 5 (01:02:07):
Okay, November twenty twenty six, we're going to have our
major tour of Peru and Bolivia, either a pre or
post tour of Perakas and Nasca on the coast, and
then after that six days.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
In Easter Island bucket list Easter Island. Come join Brian
and Iroan his amazing team here at Hidneyka Tours four Peru,
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(01:03:34):
back Fad to Black. I am your host, Timmy Church. Tonight,
Jennifer Stein, director of the film Travis the documentary is
with us. Travis is traveling to Montreal and apparently has landed.
He's not with us tonight. I've done many many interviews

(01:03:55):
with Travis over the years, and we'll get him. We'll
get him on the show. We'll get him on the show.
Every conversation I've had with you know, when I asked
Travis once, Jennifer, I asked him, I said, okay, so
the female alien was she wearing makeup and he goes,

(01:04:19):
I've never been asked that question. Let me think about that.
And it the sensational parts of it, because people, well,
they read the book, they hear about the case, they
read the National Inquirer, whatever they're gonna do, right, and
then see the film. For a lot of people, the

(01:04:41):
film was the only part that they knew about the case.
So they see the sensational stuff that was filmed on
the ship, and the word horror kind of comes to
play here because it had elements of that. Scared the crap.
But to me, I'm not gonna lie. But there's other

(01:05:05):
parts of this that Travis experienced that people they just
want the sensational stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:05:12):
Don't they Yes, they do.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
Travis's case was no exception. Because now we have apro
on the scene. Okay, so what happened to Travis on
the ship, we'll save that for Travis when he comes
back on the show. But the facts of the case,
what we know about it, and what was going on
while Travis was gone, these are the thing and after

(01:05:39):
he got back, by the way, these are the things
that we know. So the investigation, the search is continuing
every single day now they've gone through the first round
of polygraphs. Apro is on the scene. The news has
converged on Hebrew and Snowflake and everybody is there. This

(01:06:00):
is national and international news. It is a huge story.
And then let's go to the moment Travis is returned.
He comes back, tell us about that and how that unfolded.

Speaker 4 (01:06:17):
So Travis wakes up on the side of the road.
His body is half on the gravel and half on
the tarmac the front from his waist up, he's lying
on the paved tarmac of the road. His head is
on his arm like this, and he can see a
light around him, and he's kind of startled. He also
feels quite warm, but it's cold outside. He said he

(01:06:39):
could feel like there was warm air still in his clothing,
but it was really pretty cold out around him, and
that's what startled him to wake up. And he looks
up to see where the light's coming from, and he
sees the UFO craft sitting right above him with a
light shining down on Travis, and all of a sudden,
that hole that the light's coming through closes up more

(01:07:02):
up and then the graft takes off really quickly, and
he sees it kind of brushed by a tree on
the other side of the street, and he stands up,
you know, gathers his strength and heads downhill because he
can see some lights at him and he's not quite
sure where he is. And he gets into the town

(01:07:22):
and realizes he's in the town of Hebrew, which is
the place where these guys make the phone call to
report him missing. So Travis actually ends up going not
exactly to that same phone booth, but to a phone
booth nearby at a gas station and calling, and he
calls his sister who lives closest to Hebrew. And when

(01:07:43):
he calls his sister, his brother Dwayne answers the phone,
and that is like, you know, Dwayne, like Travis. I
don't quite computed why Dwayne and his brother in law
were answering the phone. And they thought it was a
crank call because our family has all the family phones

(01:08:05):
had been ringing off the hook for a week, and
there were all sorts of crazy people calling for all
sorts of reasons. News crews wanting information, you know, apro
UFO groups, ground safcer watch saying look, if he is returned,
don't turn him over to the police. Get him immediately
for some medical evaluations, put his clothes in a baggie,
and they were getting all this information. So Dwayne finally

(01:08:27):
realized it was Travis. And what's interesting is that Travis
didn't have a dime to make the phone call. In
those days, you could pick up the phone, get a
dial tone, wait for the operator to come on and
make a collect call, which is what Travis did when
he called his sister. He also did probably didn't know

(01:08:47):
the number, you know, he probably didn't remember what his
sister's phone number was, so we had the operator look
it up, which they could do in those days, and
then place a collect call too. The and they had
to accept the charges, which I don't know, twenty five
cents or something in those days, right, I remember making
doing that myself. But the operator knew, well Travis said

(01:09:11):
it's from Travis Walton. She's like, oh my god, Travis,
you've been in the news for a week. She didn't
say that, but she stayed on the call, which is
totally illegal to do, and she listened in on the
phone call.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
I would have I would have broken the lawn.

Speaker 4 (01:09:27):
Then she called Marlon Gillespie herself and said, guess what
Travis is back. He was in a phone booth just
five minutes ago making a phone call, and so Marlin
sent out a deputy to go dust for his fingerprints
in the phone booth. I think they dusted all three

(01:09:47):
phone booths because it was a set of three together,
So that's very interesting. A lot of people don't know that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
So he did pick up Who picked up Travis?

Speaker 4 (01:09:58):
It was Dwayne and and his brother in law, I
think Grant nat was his name, and his sister stayed
at home. So the two guys went out with a
pickup truck and when they went to get Travis, after
Travis made the phone call, he collapsed in the bottom
of this phone booth. It kept him warm, you know,
because the door kind of opened and closed, like you know,

(01:10:19):
a lever door that collapses in on itself. So he collapsed,
the door closed, and when they were trying to get
him out of the phone booth, Travis went into a
bit of a panic attack. He tried to get away
from him because he was like coming back up to
consciousness remembering what had just happened to him, and the
bright lights of the truck were facing in on him,
and I guess it was startling to him.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
It was traumatic. The whole thing was traumatic. I can't
I can't imagine the here's, here's and then we're going
to move on. We've got so much to cover, Jennifer,
and thank you for this. I have such respect for you.
But just thank you. Is that fish out of water

(01:11:02):
is an overused metaphor, but if you want to be
like real fish out of water situation, then deal with
a truly alien environment, one that you have absolutely nothing

(01:11:23):
to relate to, and to go through that for five days,
probably no food, no water, you know, I've near death
kind of thing. So all of that is in play,
no sleep whatever, right, all that trauma, and then to

(01:11:44):
go from fish out of water back to fish in water,
I can't imagine him going through this and what condition
he was in mentally and physically by the time Dwayne
got to him, right.

Speaker 4 (01:11:59):
And that's when that happened. That's what triggered Dwayne to know,
Oh my gosh. He saw how Travis reacted. I mean,
Travis tried to punch him right, and then Travis was
like trembling and shaking and very confused. And Travis thought
it was the same night. He didn't realize he'd been
gone five days. So a conversation ensued in the truck

(01:12:23):
as they were driving back to his sister's house and
then eventually onto Travis's mother's house is where they went,
and Dwayne said, you know, you're you know, we've been
looking for you for five days, and you know your
mother was really worried, and you know, we were all panicked.
And Travis was like, what do you mean five days?

(01:12:45):
And Dwayne said, Travis, fill your face and he had
a five day growth of beard. So that really freaked
Travis out. And Dwayne just decided then and there, Okay,
I've got to like keep him under my wing. I'm
not turning them over to the police. What some of
these you know, APT pro and ground Saucer Watch UFO

(01:13:07):
groups kind of warned about might be true. I don't
know what they're going to do with them. If I
turn him over to the police, they may pick him
up by the military and you know, start interrogating him
about off world planets or something. We didn't know, but
Travis was in no condition to answer questions. Travis needed love, comfort, support, food, understanding,

(01:13:28):
and probably some medical attention. So Dwayne just decided he
was going to keep it a secret and filled the
car with gas and drove him right down to Phoenix
that night to keep him away from the trauma drama
going on in Snowflake because there were news crews pat
parked out in front of people's houses. I mean, it
was a real pandemonia.

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):
What did Travis tell Dwayne? You know, what did he remember?
I'm sure the first thing out of Dwayne's mouth was
and should have been, Dode, they think we killed you.
You know you're alive, right, so you know that, you know,
I'm sure that that was.

Speaker 4 (01:14:09):
Was sure that was part of the conversation, right that happened,
And Travis started to try to tell his brother what
he saw. But when he started, i mean, his teeth
started to chatter, his whole body started to shake, and
he started to go back into that emotional panic attack,
and Dwayne just said, don't go there, Travis, don't go there.

(01:14:32):
Dwayne coached him and said, we're going to get you
to help. You need bud, you know, because he's the
older brother, and he said, I'm going to take care
of you. Don't worry, it's okay, You're safe now. He
just wanted Travis not to go into a panic attack
because he'd never seen his brother react this way, and
so he knew that the psychological conditioning of his brother

(01:14:53):
now was his main focus. And Dwayne really protected Travis
and really tried to help him and helped him get
the regression that he needed. It wasn't to remember the facts,
it was to recount the facts without going into such
a panic attack that he would, you know, face having
a heart attack or something like that. And so the first,

(01:15:17):
you know, person who did this regression on him really
coached him into a deep state of relaxation, and that
was doctor James Harder, who was brought in from California
to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
The the entrance of okay, there there was a few
blunders that happened in this from both sides. One one
of those was the question of money. And then Philip
Klass comes into the picture as a skeptic and it's gonna,

(01:15:53):
you know, torment everybody that's involved in this case as
probably and and Philip was such I want to be kind,
I'm gonna be on the kind side of the He
was such an antagonist and such a pain and anybody's

(01:16:16):
life that he got involved with. But he he took
it to another level with Travis and the logging crew,
and it should have been illegal what he had done
and the things that he said.

Speaker 4 (01:16:30):
It was actually.

Speaker 1 (01:16:35):
It was true, true, but but he had he had
a good argument though, because money started changing hands, right
the National well, National Inquiry came in and and gave
some money out. Dallas got some dash right.

Speaker 4 (01:16:58):
No, this is basically what I understand happening is the
National Inquirer wanted the story right, and they wanted to
probably debunk the story, because that's really what they did.
They took the truth and they mixed it with falsehoods
and confusion. And you know, it's now it's been revealed

(01:17:20):
that that was really a particular periodical with that particular intention.
You know that if even from the start, the owner
and things like that, you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Know, c.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well we now know.

Speaker 4 (01:17:36):
The history of the National Inquirer. So the National Inquirer
had an intent to get information and then probably to
try to manipulate that information. So what they did is
they agreed to pay for James Harder to come in
and do a regression. And I just saw text from Travis,
so I'll text him back real quick and say, please

(01:17:57):
join us if he can. Okay, that's okay, Yeah, please
le've lug on and join us if you can. We're
waiting for you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:06):
Tell him we have thirty minutes left. He's probably exhausted,
but if he can jump in, it'd be great.

Speaker 4 (01:18:12):
So the National Enquirer paid for the regressions to be
done on Travis, and they paid for like, you know,
hypnosis to try to calm him down. And they also
offered to help with medical expenses, have a medical evaluation
and things like that done. And then they offered to

(01:18:34):
do additional pay for additional polygraph tests because Philip Class
wanted to hire a polygraph expert that would probably say
all these guys were lying. And they then started to
negotiate back and forth. Okay, we'll take new polygraphs and
if we all pass, then you pay for it, Philip.
But if we all fail, we pay for it. And

(01:18:57):
there was that negotiation that went on with Philip, and
Philip eventually gave up because they were looking for qualified
polygraph examiners and they were getting smart to what was
going on. By this point, I mean this went on
for fifteen twenty years. Yes, yes, it all happened in
a month or two after it was back. I mean,
this thing, the debunking that Philip Class did on this

(01:19:18):
case went on for thirty years. That's why there's one
third of Travis's book that's dedicated to writing about this.
But in spite of all that, Jimmy, Philip Class never
called Travis himself to talk to him. He worked through
the other guys of the crew. He was, you know,
he was the manipulator. He offered Steve Pearce a bribe

(01:19:40):
five years after this event for ten thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
And thousand dollars and that was big money back then.
It's big money now. It's big money now.

Speaker 4 (01:19:50):
And you know, to just he wanted the youngest member
of the crew to say, yeah, it really didn't happen
and they just faked it, and you know what, to
debunking is still going on today. Robert Schaefer was a
graduate student at Northwestern University and he had a lot
of correspondence with Philip Class, and Philip wanted him to

(01:20:11):
spy on Jay Allen Heinich, right because he was a
graduate student. Thearren Heineck was hired to be the blue
Book director. So when you see the lifelong work of
Robert Schaeffer. He kind of follows in the footsteps of
Philip Class and this debunking still goes on today, and
I think he may even be supporting it. I think

(01:20:33):
maybe he honestly believes his position because he doesn't believe
that this is possible. But you kind of have to
be an Ostrich with your head in the sand these
days now that we're having congressional hearings about this, right,
three major congressional hearings, one last week.

Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
Right I am back in COVID. It was twenty twenty
right in there, twenty twenty one when these alternative theories
started to surface about Travis. And I'm watching this, and
I'm watching this and I was driving. You know what,

(01:21:14):
This is pissing me off. So I called Travis and
I'm driving, literally driving, and I get him on the phone.
I go, what's going on? He goes, Man, I'm dealing
with this. I'll bleep it out. And I said, what
is going up, man, Jimmy, And I said, you know what, Travis,

(01:21:36):
You're coming on the show this week. And I moved
the guests around and I brought Travis on the show
to once again just walk through this and address everything
about the case as he knew it. But it's just
amazing to me that, like you said, the debunking is

(01:22:01):
still there. I don't know if it's boredom, you know
what I mean, the evidence in this case and.

Speaker 4 (01:22:08):
Everything gets money. I think it's money, money, money, money clicks. Yeah,
money clicks popularity and notoriety, and a demnker's job is
really easy, Jimmy. All they have to do is confuse
the facts, mess up the data, be convincing, and make

(01:22:30):
the audience feel like they're not smart enough to figure
it out, which is really kind of a shame. And
then people go away thinking, well, oh, I thought I
understood this story, but you know, maybe I didn't. And
they don't know where to go for the facts themselves,
so they just kind of like go away and you know,
take their stories with them. And it's a shame. But

(01:22:50):
it still goes on today.

Speaker 1 (01:22:53):
Yea.

Speaker 4 (01:22:53):
And in fact, at twenty twenty one, we saw quite
a bit of it and I thought, well, that's very interesting. Why,
you know, we why is it suddenly why is there
a spike in this Well, now that we have disclosure,
sort of official disclosure, we can talk about the craft
in the sky. But we can't talk about contact. We
can't talk about beings. Oh gosh, we can't talk about consciousness.

(01:23:15):
Oh that's you know, that's taboo. But the craft in
the sky, oh yeah, we can admit that's real. But
they don't have drivers, right right, right, right, right right.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
You mentioned earlier before we moved on, Uh, you mentioned
that two of the investigators had their own UFO sidings.

Speaker 4 (01:23:36):
Yes, this is what's really interesting and for your listening audience,
they'll like to know this. So first thing I did
when I sat Marlon Gillespie down, as I said, and
he didn't realize I was already rolling that I was,
I said, can you tell us have you had any
of your own UFO encounters? You know, like, first off,

(01:23:57):
that's what I want to know. You've been the sheriff
here for forty years in Holbrook. Have you seen encounters yourself?
Would you like to share one? And he actually took
fifteen minutes and told us a really powerful story that
he had himself, and I put it up online. So
if people go to Travis waltonthmovie dot com and go
to the debunking page where I posted a whole bunch

(01:24:19):
of videos, some entire interviews that I did with people,
just so it proves the debunker's wrong. Right, So he
talks about his own experience right there and everyone can
watch it now. Chuck Ellison I did the same thing,
and Chuck was a.

Speaker 2 (01:24:35):
Little more sly.

Speaker 4 (01:24:36):
He said, turn your camera off and I'll tell you
my story.

Speaker 1 (01:24:39):
Okay, let's get back to that. I want to remind
everybody that Gillespie is James Garner, so for him, especially
the way that he's portrayed the same way in Travis's book,
So I think his thing is but to have him

(01:25:00):
have his own sighting, yeah, that's crazy, that's crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:25:04):
And Trumps did the interview. I was shooting. I was
the camera person, so I was doing the sound and
the cameras and the tripods and I said, Travis, here's
the list of questions. He said, I'm not interviewing him.
I said, yes, you are. I got to be in
the background. I said, I'll ask a few questions too,
but I got to zoom in, zoom back, make sure
the sounds right, you know. And then we had some

(01:25:24):
construction noise going on and we had to stop, and
you know, I said, I'm the producer. I got to
do that. But we're doing this on a shoe string. Travis.
You're asking the questions. So you know, what I saw
from that is that they really were friends and they
really had respect for each other. I have a couple
photos of that interview.

Speaker 1 (01:25:43):
Okay, it looks like we got Travis. Yay, looks like
we got Travis. Okay, Travis, if you can hear me,
I'm just going to bring you straight in, nod your
head and say, yeah, you're ready, You're ready. There he
is right there, Travis. How you doing.

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
All right?

Speaker 1 (01:26:02):
It's good to see you, man. I've been great, and
we've been talking about you all night. Let me change cameras. Travis, welcome.
You and I haven't spoken in a minute, but we've
certainly talked a lot over the years, and you know,
I've got a lot of respect for you. But I'm
gonna I'm just gonna start here. First off, thank you

(01:26:25):
for coming in tonight. Jennifer held her own. She's a professional.
You know, she did her job. But Travis, I brought
up earlier, it's crazy now fifty years you know here
we are fifty It seems like because your case and

(01:26:46):
experience is a modern case, it's modern nineteen seventy five.
But fifty years does it seem like fifty years to you?

Speaker 2 (01:26:55):
No, it doesn't. It seems in a way like yesterday,
although it's basically my whole life.

Speaker 1 (01:27:04):
And with if you can, if you don't mind, just
just briefly, how fifty years is a long time to
think about this and to analyze it and to go
through it. I'm sure you do it every day. But
how has it changed you? You know, you before November fifth,

(01:27:28):
nineteen seventy five, and who you are today? How has
it changed you?

Speaker 2 (01:27:31):
Man? Well, I think it's changed me, mostly as far
as my personal judgment of things is. I'm more analytical
about things, and I don't want to make the air
of using the mistakes of judgment that we're used against me.
You know, first, get all of the facts and use good,

(01:27:53):
good judgment, you know, and if you don't have enough
information to judge, don't do good.

Speaker 1 (01:28:02):
And and what about your worldview? You know, how do
you how do you look at the world now versus
and I And I'm I'm not trying to be cavalier
here because what you went through most of us will not,
but you did and so how how how is your

(01:28:23):
view of the world and other people? How do you
how do you view that?

Speaker 2 (01:28:28):
Now? Well, I think it's it's vastly larger than it was.
You know, I've had plenty of time to think about
just how big the universe is. We had conversations this
evening here about uh, you know, how much even even scientists,
uh judge the universe to be much larger than they

(01:28:53):
used to think. I used to think of it as
more localized and sort of a you know what, they
call it, the Big Bang and everything. But you know, recently,
you know, the lowest modern space telescope points at the
emptiest spot in the sky and see hundreds of galaxies

(01:29:13):
and not just stars, galaxies like our Milky Way, and
the number of possible worlds is just so vastly, incomprehensibly huge,
both in the size and scope of the universe and
the age I mean the time. You know, humans have

(01:29:35):
only occupied this planet for a few thousand years, and
the dinosaurs held it for thousands of millions of years.

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):
Right right, So, so okay, now this is I'm asking
this question for me. One of my favorite things to
do is go out of my backyard with my telescopes
in my night vision. I live in the Mojave Desert
and just pick a spot in the sky and just
look and wonder. What do you think about when you

(01:30:07):
walk out and you look up at the stars? What
what goes through your mind? Now?

Speaker 2 (01:30:15):
Well, I you know, like I said, it broadened my
perspective in terms of the immensity, the size, but also
in terms of time. Yeah, there's other life supporting worlds.
Some of them are vastly older than us. Some of
them are I mean, there's cave aliens out there too, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:33):
For sure, right, and it has to be that way. No, wait,
we're the cave aliens.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
Yeah, definitely, Yeah, we're I mean kind of embarrassed actually
on the part of the aliens to come here and observe.
We were kind of discussing that here this evening that
you know, at any one time, humans are engaged in
over one hundred wars and the sore of entertainment on
our television is very aggressive, all about you know, solving murder,

(01:31:07):
musteries or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:31:08):
You know that is so funny. Now this is a compliment,
but I don't want you to take this the wrong way.
E T got lucky with you, my friend. They got
lucky you. You are a great representative of Earth. And
I don't know how lucky they could have. They could have,

(01:31:31):
they could have picked me up and had a really
bad experience. But they got lucky with you, didn't they.
And if somebody's gonna if somebody's going to represent us,
I'd wanted to be Travis Walton.

Speaker 2 (01:31:44):
Well, thank you very much. But you know, uh, I
have to understand that most likely they're observing the whole picture.
And people say, well, why don't they just land on
the White House lawn, And with very good reason they don't,
because you know, there would be something related to war.
I mean, if they weren't fired upon, they'd be immediately

(01:32:10):
pursued for pursuit of superior technology that would be misused.

Speaker 1 (01:32:16):
I've never asked you this, but let me ask you now.
Consciousness is probably our next evolutionary phase where we'll get
to understand what it is and stuff. But have you
do you think that you've established a consciousness connection with

(01:32:39):
et Have they in any way reached back out to you?
Do you feel their presence?

Speaker 2 (01:32:47):
Well, I think in struggling to understand my own experience
that I think I'm more in line with the consciousness
that our consciousness as that are observation of Earth. And
I would hope to think that I was a better

(01:33:08):
representation than some of what's going on on the Earth
that's not good. And if people would realize that, they
understand why they don't land on the White House long
quote the phrase.

Speaker 1 (01:33:25):
Well, didn't we We saw that last week in the
congressional hearing, didn't we? You know, we've got we've got
an unknown object in the sky, and what do we do?
We shoot at it. We fired a missile at it.
And that's that's just kind of the way we think.
And I'm a little embarrassed by it. It's just it's

(01:33:46):
like it's in our DNA. Travis, what would you I
mentioned this a couple of weeks ago. I'm excited to
have you back on the show. But I mentioned this
a couple of weeks ago. I said, Congress now needs
to they've heard enough, but they need to hear from
some of these first hand witnesses and experiencers. And I

(01:34:11):
would hope that they would sit down with Travis. Would
would you accept an invitation from Congress?

Speaker 2 (01:34:20):
I would, and I could. I've got plenty of advice
not to take for granted that they would listen to it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:29):
What would you do? What would your opening statement be?

Speaker 2 (01:34:34):
Well, you know, it's the bedrock of any communication is
get the facts, all of the facts, and view it
objectively without emotion. I mean, you can react emotionally after
you learn something, but you don't let emotions substitute for reason.

Speaker 1 (01:34:59):
Right right, right, Wow, that's heavy, that's heavy. Are you
Have you been following the congressional hearings?

Speaker 4 (01:35:09):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:35:10):
I haven't. I've been doing other things, I miss I
probably should have.

Speaker 1 (01:35:17):
No, Well, fair enough, there's so much stuff that's happening
right now and it's impossible to keep up with everything.
But I will say this, Travis, and this is leading
to a question. I think that Congress is starting to
come to terms with what you and the rest of
the UFO community has been experiencing for decades, which is frustration,

(01:35:43):
bullshit from Washington, DC and the Department of Defense, and
the ridicule and the teasing of our community that has
gone on and this fight for truth. Well, now Congress
is experiencing what we've already been talking about for so long,

(01:36:08):
with that kind of cover up in place, which Congress
and the Senate too, is not used to If they
want answers, they get those answers. And in the case
of UFOs and ET and what is going on out there,
they're getting shut down and they're not used to this.
They're experiencing what you and I have been going through,

(01:36:28):
aren't they?

Speaker 2 (01:36:30):
Yeah, they are. And you know, the people who are
hoarding or holding back on this information is to a
very large degree the military, industrial the aerospace community, and
they have a vested interest in justifying their interest in it,

(01:36:56):
which is to identify it as a threat or at
least potential weaponization type material technology and uppermost in their minds,
the competition.

Speaker 1 (01:37:15):
Well, that's exactly how they play it. They don't they
don't have another page in the book, you know, you
know what I mean. It's it's the only thing that
they understand, which goes back to humanity in general. It's
a sad thing that we have to admit to. But
that's that's what that's the way we think, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:36):
Yeah? We you know, we have other nations on the
Earth that I believe this is just my own theory,
are sort of held in check by them not knowing
just how much technology we might have recovered or or whatever.
And so the idea that our government ought to throw

(01:37:57):
up in the books and let the world see what
we have. Yeah, say, yeah, you China and Russia, you
go first. But right, right, right, we couldn't trust them
to give us everything. They would just be trying to
get ours.

Speaker 1 (01:38:17):
What about what about your health originally? Not going back
to the incident itself, we can, certainly you can address
it if you want.

Speaker 4 (01:38:30):
But.

Speaker 1 (01:38:32):
From that moment forward, your health before November fifth, and
your health after that? Did you have I know that
you have suggested that e T kept you alive, right,
that quite.

Speaker 2 (01:38:49):
Possibly there accidentally.

Speaker 1 (01:38:52):
Right right? But what about your health afterwards? Any any
side effects or health effects?

Speaker 2 (01:38:59):
Effect was that I was healthier than I ought to
have been, working twelve hours a day all those years,
just trying to forget what happened, and never calling in
sick one time. So you know, I think inspite, I
was nervous that some health defect might surface. But it's

(01:39:20):
quite the opposite. But you know, I've worked at it too.
I have to admit. I try to live a healthy life.

Speaker 1 (01:39:29):
I've seen you eat chili dogs. I don't know, I
don't know if that's not healthy. Yeah, I've seen it.
But here's the other thing that I want to ask you.
This is a personal thing, and Jennifer, you can jump
into probably what is most important to all of this

(01:39:51):
is family first and how your family deals with all
of this. How has that been for you with a
support of the family, and how important is it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:05):
Well, so many of them are younger and some you
know that were not even born when this happened, So
basically it's been a part of their lives all their lives.
They just accept what's what they've always known. And they
also know me on a personal level that it hasn't
skewed me in some bizarre way, at least not to

(01:40:27):
my thinking. So I think they handle it pretty pretty
pretty well. And I've worked at that, trying not to
let it dominate our lives and make it the topic
of conversation all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:40:45):
But they had. Man, if my grandfather was Travis Walton
and I'm five six seven years old, I'm going to go, Grandpa,
tell us about the aliens? Right, And do they do that?
Do they want to hear? I mean, I can't imagine
being able to do that, So do they do that

(01:41:06):
with you.

Speaker 2 (01:41:08):
Well, they don't approach me, but I'm sure they get
those questions answered from other adults near them.

Speaker 1 (01:41:20):
So you don't. Oh man, So Thanksgiving dinner, Travis, I'm
being serious. I remember you and I having breakfast one time.
This is like twelve thirteen years ago. We're having breakfast
somewhere and you and I traded pictures of our kids
all through breakfast, and I'm sure you remember that, and
we just talked about our kids and everything. And I
had said to you, my daughters don't know anything about

(01:41:44):
what I do. They know it pays the bills, right,
they know that part, but they don't ask me about
this stuff. And you had said that, Yeah, it's kind
of the same for me. We're just a family. They
know about it, but we don't talk about it. I said, well,
what about Thanksgiving dinner? Are you the crazy UFO uncle?

(01:42:05):
And does the subject come up? So what about Thanksgiving dinner?
Are you the crazy UFO uncle? And does it come up?
Or is it just.

Speaker 2 (01:42:13):
Doesn't abate the conversation or anything. I try to live
a normal life and they're fine with that.

Speaker 1 (01:42:22):
What do you make of the other side of this
disclosure thing? That is that seems to be moving along
at a pretty good clip. Do you think that the
government is about to come clean on these subjects?

Speaker 2 (01:42:37):
Well, I think they've given up on trying to use
ridicule in denial because it wasn't working. It was actually
destroying their own credibility. So they have to admit what
the general public already accepts as true. So that's progress,
and you know eventually they're they're just going to have

(01:43:01):
to a little be a little more open about the
broader perspective. I mean, you know, joining the common knowledge
that's out there.

Speaker 1 (01:43:14):
Does the president know?

Speaker 2 (01:43:16):
What?

Speaker 1 (01:43:16):
Do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:43:18):
Well, I'm sure he's curious about it, and that was
one of one of the many things that he accessed
as soon as he got in there.

Speaker 1 (01:43:31):
And how far I mean, in your experience, how far
does the Oval Office get to go with this subject
before it does get cut off? Because you have the legacy,
the employees that are part of this. You know, the
White House comes and goes every four years or every

(01:43:53):
eight years, but the programs are going on continue us
in the background. So how much do they need the
president to even know about this? Any president? Do they
even care who is sitting in the White House. Does
it matter? You know what I mean? Is the program

(01:44:14):
bigger than the Oval Office?

Speaker 2 (01:44:19):
Yeah? I think in a way it is, and it's
important to you know, think, how could this vast curiosity
and thirst and hunger for knowledge about them and our
place in the universe, How could it be used in
a way that is constructive that benefits us? And I

(01:44:40):
think just what they've been doing, the aliens, like I've
said before, could do everything they're doing here and remain undetected.
I think they're way too smart to be metaphorically speaking
slapping their forehead and saying, oh gee, human spotters again.

(01:45:04):
We're gonna have to be more careful next time. I
think when they're sightings that it's intentional, right, and why
because that's the most constructive thing they can do waish
far far short of landing on the White House lawn,
but making their presence known so that we will adjust

(01:45:25):
our behaviors to be worthy, to put it brilliantly of
a more open sort of contact.

Speaker 1 (01:45:35):
Well, that that happened to you, and what I mean
by that is they revealed themselves to you. Certainly, somebody
with that kind of technology, an advanced civilization that can
arrive on this planet can get here any way that
they want right, detected, undetected, whatever. But they did reveal

(01:45:58):
themselves to you. Do you do you know if we
track that craft that came down into you know, snowflake
that day, did we know that that craft was here?

Speaker 2 (01:46:14):
I expect that it was probably observed right from satellite.
And what can they say? You know, we're we've got
cameras on everything going on on the Earth or whatever.
I'm speaking about official use in possession of the detected craft.

Speaker 1 (01:46:37):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, And do you, uh, what do you
make of And I don't want to put words in
anybody's mouth or ideas in anybody's heads, but we suddenly
have these objects in our solar system. Right now we

(01:46:58):
have three I at lists that is coming around the sun.
AVI lobe is saying some pretty sensational things about it.
We don't know what it is, but it's intercellar. And
now we also have a new comment that just appeared
S two. All we need is a third object to
show up, and that's when it's beyond coincidence. Do you

(01:47:18):
think that that is what you're talking about where they
make themselves visible? Is it possible that three I at
lists could be just that where we throw all of
our sensors at it and telescopes and we discover that
it's artificial, and then that changes the conversation here on Earth.
Is that the change that we need? Is it possible?

Speaker 2 (01:47:40):
Well, if that really is them showing themselves, that would
be the result. But I don't know if that would
be constructive. I think now, and I'm gonna talk about
us and your listeners. I'm talking about the general population
right way too alarmed by that, and uh, maybe calling

(01:48:04):
for military action and all kinds of things may a
panic might ensue, and that's not constructive.

Speaker 1 (01:48:12):
The nudges, That's where I was going. It seems it
seems like a nudge. It's not. It's not as dramatic
as the White House lawn, but it's it's like a
drive by, you know, waving out the window. We're here.
It's that's more of a could the Earth handle? I mean,

(01:48:36):
the White House lawn? That may be a bit much
for the for the world to take. But maybe if
it's a drive by, it's a little nudge. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:48:44):
Well, jim me, I will interject, they.

Speaker 2 (01:48:48):
Encourage us to be more constructive in how we want
to represent ourselves to the universe.

Speaker 4 (01:48:57):
Yeah, I think you're giving us a message.

Speaker 1 (01:49:01):
Hang on, Travis, Jennifer, go ahead.

Speaker 4 (01:49:03):
Yeah, I'm saying I think they're giving us a message
because they keep rendering our nuclear weapons inert right so,
and they are doing it very quietly, very peacefully, and
they're doing it all over the world. They're doing it
in Russia, they're probably doing it in China. They've done
it all across you know, our man missiles we had

(01:49:23):
in the sixties and seventies. They did it in England
in the Rentallsome Forest. These stories are what the whistleblowers
are coming forward and talking about right now in Washington, DC.
That they can outmaneuver us, and they've got superior equipment
and they are not destroying us. So there is a
message in their methodology, and if we sit back and

(01:49:45):
look at it, we can digest it and understand it.
But we should listen to and take the whistleblowers seriously.
When Carl Nell says there's zero doubt that we're not
alone in the universe, I think we should pay attentionally.

Speaker 1 (01:50:02):
Yeah, that's a really good point. And Travis, let me
ask you about that. You do you consider don't take
this the wrong way, take this or take Do you
consider yourself a whistleblower? And whistle blowers that reveal themselves

(01:50:23):
have to deal with critics, debunkers, personal attacks and everything else.
That what why whistleblowers are protected. But you've weathered this
storm many many times over the last fifty years. Do
you consider yourself a whistleblower? And that's why so many
people have come after you?

Speaker 2 (01:50:45):
Well, yeah, I'm stuck with it, though, you know, it's
not like intentional. I don't go out of my way.
I've never sought out an interview in my life. I
don't even advertise my book. People just found out that
I wrote one. Find out how to get hold of Me.
But you know it's I'm not looking to be the

(01:51:05):
center of anything. I'm just responding to reactions that occurred
due to I think was an accident. An accident happened,
and probably even even for our superior intelligence, nothing that
they intended to happen. Of course, that's just my summarization there.

Speaker 1 (01:51:28):
Well, Jennifer and I were talking about this earlier four
years ago, when I'd want to bring the negative part up.
But all of this stuff surfaced and I had called you.
I was driving in my car. I said, Travis, We've
got to nip this in the bud right now. This

(01:51:48):
is not cool. I don't appreciate what's going on. Is
it okay if I bring down the show and we
talk about this. But that's to your point. You didn't
call me. I called you about this, and you were
not asking for any of this BS that started to
flow up. And it's just like the case and the

(01:52:11):
facts around your experience has never changed over the years.
People have tried to change it, but you haven't. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:52:21):
Well, the self appointed, self described debunkers are actually the
ones creating bunk, and they end up in the long
run discrediting themselves because the truth comes out and places
where they proveably flat out wide discredits their approach, and

(01:52:47):
the approach being why use deceptive techniques to discredit what
their claiming is false? You know, their integrity would be
very central to the idea that they're exposing the great
lie that's being first perpetrated on the human race by

(01:53:09):
so many sources. There's no such thing that humans are
alone in the universe, and they're here to preserve that belief.
But I don't think people are buying it.

Speaker 1 (01:53:21):
No, and I feel and Travis, before we say good night,
I don't want to forget. I just want to thank
you or to thank you not only for your friendship
over the years, but your contributions to the world. In
this community, those things cannot be measured. We hold you
in the highest and we really appreciate you and all

(01:53:46):
of your efforts. I mean, before I get all emotional
with this, but I think you know a little bit
about how this community looks at you. But I'm telling you,
I'm speaking for the community right now. We have such
respect for you and just thank you for everything that
you have not only brought to us, but have also

(01:54:07):
endured and put up with. So I just want to
thank you for that. But I want to end on this.
You're going to uh you got the sky Fire someone
coming up again with Jennifer, A great lineup of speakers.
But it is fifty years How are you going to
approach this conference in Sedona differently than you have in

(01:54:30):
the past, because man, it's five decades now. How are
you how are you going to how are you going
to approach this conference?

Speaker 2 (01:54:38):
Well, where there is information in newer perspectives.

Speaker 1 (01:54:42):
And you know, anything you want to reveal here, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:54:49):
The conference is a good place to reveal in.

Speaker 4 (01:54:51):
Yes, I can jump in.

Speaker 1 (01:54:58):
I don't think Travis can hear you, Jennifer, go ahead, Jennifer, Yeah,
he probably can't.

Speaker 4 (01:55:02):
So what I am going to do is Travis and
I got to speak in Rosweld this year, and Travis
saw I dug up some old newsreels and old you know,
archival footage that people haven't seen in the past. Some
that couldn't be licensed. I couldn't afford to license it,
you know, but it's it's available for you know, for sharing.
So we're going to look at some old newsreel footage

(01:55:26):
and kind of really give a perspective to the audience
of how long Travis has been speaking the truth about this.
And we're going to take the opportunity to celebrate and
honor Travis for his integrity and for what he has
withstood with fifty years of debunking and you know, fifty

(01:55:46):
years of you know, scratching your head and trying to
digest this not only for himself but for others that
are coming at him constantly. So Travis does to be
recognized and appreciated, and that's what people are coming out
to do. Really. I mean, we're having a UFO conference

(01:56:07):
and we're covering UFO secrecy and how it's come to light,
but we're also honoring Travis, and we're doing both.

Speaker 1 (01:56:17):
Travis again, just thank you so much and thank you
for taking the time tonight. I know that you've had
a very very very busy day, but you made it
in and just thank you so much, my friend. And
what I would like to do, Travis. I'll set this
up with Michelle and Jennifer, but I would like to

(01:56:37):
very soon do a show with you and I where
we can just sit and just do our things, just
have an open conversation, and when you get back to
Arizona and get your feedback under you, we'll do another show.

Speaker 2 (01:56:52):
Sound good, sounds good.

Speaker 1 (01:56:55):
Thank you so much, Travis.

Speaker 2 (01:56:58):
I was stuck with it. Oh, I was just left
with trying to make something good come of it.

Speaker 1 (01:57:03):
And you did. You did, my friend, you did, and
just an amazing life. And thank you again for your
contributions to the world. Man. Just thank you so much. Travis.
Get some rest. I know you've had a busy day. Jennifer,
thank you so much. We've got the links up for everything,
Travis are below. We've got three links up and they're

(01:57:25):
in the chat room description box, over in the website
and throughout social media. Travis, enjoy the rest of your night. Jennifer,
thank you so much, keep doing your thing. I really
appreciate the both of you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:57:37):
Thank you, Jim good night, thank you, good good night.

Speaker 1 (01:57:41):
And there you go. A perfect night on the show.
Jennifer Stein and Travis Walton. We've got a great week.
We have a short week this week here on Fade
to Black, and I just want to let everybody know
that Thursday night we are off air because I am
traveling and I'm on the road. But tomorrow night, Tony
Rathman is here, one of the great paranormal researchers on

(01:58:05):
planet Earth. And then Wednesday night, Deeen Bertram is here.
We're gonna be talking about the Shaver mystery.

Speaker 2 (01:58:11):
All right.

Speaker 1 (01:58:11):
So until tomorrow night with Tony Rathman. I'm your host,
Jimmy Church. You know, all I've got is go Beckley Teppe.
Bade to Black is produced by Hilton J. Palm, Renee Newman,
and Michelle Free. Special thanks to Bill John Dex, Jessica

(01:58:34):
Dennis and Kevin Webmaster Is Drew the Geek. Music by
Doug Albriche intro Spaceboy. Aide to Black is produced by
kJ c R for the Game Changer Network. This broadcast
is owned and copyrighted twenty twenty four by Fade to
Black and the Game Changer Network, Inc. It cannot be rebroadcast, downloaded, copied,

(01:58:59):
or used any where the known universe without written permission
from Aye to Black or the Game Changer Network. I'm
your Host, Jimmy Church, Go Back, Lee, Tappy