FADE to BLACK host: Jimmy Church guest: Dean Bertram, PhD

Tonight, Dean Bertram joins us to discuss The Shaver Mystery... all of it... seriously.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, this Hope Radio for the Nassis headline of this

(00:31):
July eighth, nineteen forty seven. The Audi Air Forces has
an outstart applying this help be found and there's now
in the possession of the.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
ADA that the game is very changed.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
The game Game Changer. I occasionally think how quickly our
difference is worldwide would vanish if we were facing an
alien threat from outside.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
This work.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
Saday to Black. It's your host, Jimmy Church on the
Game Changer Radio Network. Well, well, well, good evening, fade
to black. How you doing? How you doing? I got
everything in order here. Today's Wednesday, September twenty fourth, twenty
twenty five. It is the rapture. Yeah, well it was

(01:25):
supposed to be yesterday. It was supposed to be yesterday
and today, all right, so I guess we got to
wait till midnight or something local time, whatever that may be.
I laugh. Now, you know, wake up tomorrow and I'm
the only one on my block. Where'd everybody go? What

(01:48):
it's real? Oh my? How you doing? All right? All right,
Jimmy Church, let's do this man. Fade to black. I
want to let everybody know that it's a little off
this week. Today is my Friday because it's the Rapture,

(02:09):
and I've decided to take tomorrow off because I don't
know what tomorrow is going to bring. Not really, I know,
am I being insensitive to those out there that have
sold everything? What are my kids going to do without me?

Speaker 2 (02:26):
What?

Speaker 3 (02:26):
You don't expect your kids to go with you? So
I don't want to be insensitive. I really don't. I
really don't. I really don't. Where was I going with that? Oh? Oh,
today is my Friday. Tomorrow I'm on the road and
I will be in San Diego hosting the conference. This

(02:48):
Weekend's going to be a lot of fun. Can't wait
to do it and get down there and hang out
with everybody, all right, because my wife is going to
be there, That's right. Sarah Brestman cosme. Yeah. Yeah. We
get to, you know, bump into each other like ships
in the night at conferences once in a while somewhere
around the world. But that's going on this weekend. This

(03:11):
week I paid to black. Monday night, we had Travis
Walton Jennifer Stein here the fiftieth anniversary for Travis absolutely incredible,
and then last night Tony Rathman staticcom revealed what an
amazing show last night, Tony is absolutely incredible. And then
we're gonna wrap up this week tonight with Dean Bertram.

(03:31):
I've been talking about this all week. We're gonna be
talking about the Shaver Mystery tonight. Tomorrow we are off air.
I have mentioned every night on the show that the
Shaver Mystery is ufology one oh one. It's part of it.
And when you begin I'll talk about this with Dean

(03:55):
in just a minute. But when you you know, you
start this thing in your bond books and you know,
and you got videos and you're watching documents. Eventually as
you travel down that road, you end up at the
Shaver mystery, all right, you just do. And there's so

(04:16):
much that that stems off of it in every direction.
And tonight we're gonna go through all of that. It's
gonna be a great show. And for those of you
out there that are newer to the subject, the conspiracy subject,
and you're gonna hear about maybe the Shaver Mystery tonight
for the first time. You're gonna have some fun over

(04:37):
the next month or so, right telling you what kids,
the Shaver Mystery. That's what we are going to do tonight.
I mentioned Long John Nebll a lot on the show,
and Nebel before myself, before George Nori, before Art Bell,
there was Long John Nebll. And Long John Nebell ran

(05:00):
on the air from the fifties, sixties and into the
early seventies on WOR out of New York City, and
he was pulling twenty five to fifty million listeners a night.
His show ran for six hours. It was called The
Party Line, and he covered all of this stuff, ghosts,

(05:22):
the paranormal, UFOs, and just time travel. He covered everything.
But one of the things that he covered on the
show extensively was the shaver mystery. And throughout the fifties
and sixties, I mean, it was a constant subject on

(05:43):
his show, and I listened to all of them. Man,
absolutely great. So if you get a chance in your
shaver mystery rabbit hole over the next couple of months,
look up Long John Nebll. All of his stuff is
archived on the Internet archive and you can go and
listen to those shaver mystery shows yourself. All right, I
have six events coming up. There may be a seventh

(06:05):
and an eighth added over the next week, but first
up is the Conscious Life Expo February twenty through the
twenty third, twenty twenty six at the lax Hilton. After
that is the Contact Modalities Expo May first through the third,
twenty twenty six and Delavan, Wisconsin at the Delavan Lake Resort.
After that Contact in the Desert May twenty eight through

(06:27):
June first, twenty twenty six. Tickets on sale this Thanksgiving Day.
I come back from that, heads south to Peru for
the Inca Celebration of the Sun with Brian Forrester, and
that is June twenty third through July first, and then
after that it's Monty Python and the Tour of Scotland
and that is August first through the ninth, twenty twenty six.

(06:49):
I come back from that, head back to South America
to Peru and Eastern Island, also with Brian Forster. I
get to go see them heads man so MOI action.
And that is November of twenty twenty six. All right, kids,
you got it. Tonight. Dean Bertram is here. We're talking
tonight about the Shaver mystery and what is the shaver mystery?

(07:16):
Who was Ray Palmer? Right? This is all big, huge stuff.
And when we look at Ray Palmer and his involvement
with say, Maury Island and you can't get away with
anything without mentioning Fate magazine and everything around Ray and
how many pies he had his fingers in. It's a

(07:41):
crazy story. And Dean Bertram, he's a PhD. He's a historian,
a filmmaker and host of the Talking Weird on Untold
Radio Network. He directs the Midwest Weird Fest. He has
Right a Night of Horror International Film Festival, and his
award winning short The Shaver Mystery is currently on the

(08:03):
festival circuit. I would like to welcome for the first
time he's right here to fade the Black, Dean Bertram, Dean,
good evening here man, How you doing good?

Speaker 2 (08:11):
I'm about to fan boy out to be on your show, Jimmy,
to be honest with you.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, I love hit. You know what? Yeah? Okay, you
got points? You got points out of the gate. Dean,
here's a good deal.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Three really quick things though sure. Firstly, I'm so glad
to be with you for your Friday. Who wouldn't want
to be with you on your Friday, the best day
of the of the week. Secondly, I would love to
be going on that trip with you. To go to
Easter Island and everything else I've seen it adds how cool.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
Big deal man, that's a big deal, okay, and you
said there was three.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Thirdly, what Long John Nebel is why I started to
make the films I'm making. I was very aware of
Rapealm and Richard Shaver. I had written in my PhD
dissertation on UFO belief about them. I'd agreed with people
like John Keel who suggest that they were kind of
as you said, Andre, so good to talk to somebody
who understands the importance of the Shaver mystery, that Ray
Palmer was really the person who invented flying sources. But

(09:09):
when I was doing an episode of my old show
Mysterious Library, which was also on the Untold Radio Network,
with my good friend Jason MacLean, and I suggest, hey,
let's do the Shaven mystery will be fun. One of
the things I did was listen. I'd never listened to
it before, the Long John Nebel Show where they Wear
Nebel interviews Ray Palmer and Richard Shaver, and I'm listening

(09:30):
to it, and during that episode, Long John Nebel says, well,
joining me from Amherst, Wisconsin is Ray Palmer. And I
live in Wisconsin now no nothing to do with Palmer originally,
and I'm like, how far can Amherst be from where
I live? Plug it into the Google. It's like forty
something minutes away, and I'm like, what on Earth?

Speaker 3 (09:48):
So that's you know, you can't ignore the universe, Dean.
You can't. You can't when when it reaches out to
you like that, and you gotta love it when it
happens that way. You know, a lot of people don't
pay attention to stuff like that. So how long did
it take to get in your car.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Like the next day?

Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, of course, of course, of course, Long John nebell I,
it's my job. This is my job, and so whatever
you do, it doesn't matter what you do for your gig.
But if you're into your gig, then you know the
history of your gig and you know the people in

(10:29):
whatever it is. If you're a tire changer on a
pick crew and NASCAR, you know the baddest ass tire
changers in the history of NASCAR. That's just what you do.
You know the best pick crews. And Long John nebell
I study the art of talk radio. I have since
I was a kid, and Long John Nebell changed me.

(10:51):
And if he did one thing for me, he just
let me know, you need to be yourself. Long John
never hid who he was or what interested him, and
brought him into this subject and people resonated with him

(11:13):
by the millions because they knew he wasn't wearing a mask.
He was just the guy that they thought he was,
you know, And that's that if you've got to take
away from Long John. And he stuck it out, man,
he stuck it out. He stuck it out for a
long time and and learned so much on the show.

(11:34):
And the show was hilarious at points too as well.
Funny show I remember. And then we'll move on. We've
got to get straight to Shaver because this is just incredible.
But I remember Long John. He has this guest on.
I can't remember his name, and this is going to
sound made up. He brings on a restaurant owner of

(12:00):
an Italian restaurant. Did you listen. Did you hear that
particular show?

Speaker 2 (12:04):
No, I'd love to hear it.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
Tell me about their haunted house that they lived in,
and then they then he brought on a medium. I
think he brought on somebody else. You know, he would
have five, six seven guests on. It was called the
Party Line, and so some shows he would have four
or five people sitting around at microphones, just sitting talking

(12:26):
and it was just absolutely incredible. But that show with
the Italian restaurant owner, oh man, it was just classic. Man,
it was just rolling. I just love long John Neble
and and also U the Shaver Mystery. This is uh,
this is another thing not only about Long John, but

(12:49):
when I was going down the rabbit hole of the
Shaver Mystery, just gobbling up everything that I could, I
found out that the city of Los Angeles. Do you
know this? Do you know the story about LA and
it's and it's forming and building. Do you know where
I'm going with this?

Speaker 2 (13:10):
I'd love to hear.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
Okay, are you ready? And you can look this up
and you can see this for yourself. LA was built
on a series of caves to the underworld. And when

(13:31):
I'm talking about at the turn of the century nineteen hundred,
as the land surveyors came in and mapped LA, they
also mapped these tunnels to the underworld with the people
that lived there. And it's a crazy and I didn't
I live in Los Angeles, man, I hadn't heard that story,

(13:54):
and then I went and went down that rabbit hole
because of the Shaver mystery, and it just led me there.
It's something that you should look up after the show
with what you do. It's a weird it's it's just
check it out. It's absolutely amazing, man, it's absolutely amazing.

(14:15):
And so let's do this. I know that I've talked
much about this, mentioning over and over again. If you
haven't heard about the Shaver mystery, well, after this show,
you're gonna you're gonna go and do this very fun research.
So let's actually start there with the foundation. What is
the Shaver mystery?

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Okay, I'll tell you. I'll stuck up the Frontlet the
people who really dig it after listening to this, the
best book you can read as an overview is a
book by Richard Toronto, who's one of the producers of
my upcoming feature film, the man who invented flying sources,
And he wrote a book called war Oval a Muria
and it's a wonderful overview of Palma Shaver, the Shaver

(14:56):
mystery and everything else. So if you want a quick
coverage of the whole story, I get a copy of
War of Wamia, the Shave of mystery. There's so many parts,
there's so many places where you can start it. I
think the obvious place for me to start it, though,
is in December of nineteen forty three. Raymond A. Palmer
is the editor of a magazine called Amazing Stories, which

(15:19):
was America's first science fiction pulp magazine. In fact, it's
the magazine that we get the term science fiction from
the original founder of the magazine, HUGO. Gernsbeck, at coin
term scientif fiction, and it got short into science fiction anyway.
Palmer had driven this magazine to incredible heights. It was

(15:39):
failing when it was bought by the publishers who published
it after Gernsbeck had published a company called Ziff Davis,
and he had gotten it up to about one hundred
and thirty five thousand, which was a great circulation for
a magazine at the time. He'd done all the right things.
He understood hiss demographic made the stories more exciting. But
a letter came into his offices in Chicago, a letter

(16:01):
from an unknown at that stage writer called Richard Shaver.
And Richard Shaver wrote this letter suggesting that he had
discovered we're not suggesting saying that he had discovered an
ancient language and ancient alphabet, which was really essentially the
English alphabet, but in Shaver's language, which he called man

(16:21):
tong which is a shortening probably of man tongue. The
original prediluvial pre sinking of Atlanta's language, according to Richard Shaver,
was that every letter in the English alphabet had a
secret meaning or a meaning which let you decode letter.
The code let you decode words in the English language

(16:42):
and in other languages. So A, for example, meant animal, B
meant b is in two, B, C meant c is
in icu, D meant detrimental, E meant energy, et cetera,
et cetera. So he suggested that you could understand words
by breaking them down into their letter value, and then
they would give you the original meaning of the word. Now,

(17:02):
the person who opened the letter was an associate editor
of Amazing Stories, a man called Harold Brown. And when
Brown was reading this letter in the office and describing
all the things which Shaver was suggesting, he just laughed,
and he crumpled it up and said, well, he's a
letter from another crackpot, and threw it in the trash can.
But Raymond Palmer, in his side office, heard Brown's kind

(17:26):
of overview and he came out of his office. He
snatched up the letter and he said, and you call
yourself an editor, And he flattened it out on the
table and he said, you're going to run this whole
thing in the next issue. And Brown said to Palmer, listen,
I respect your opinion. You know you're obviously a senior editor.
What do you see in this madness? And Palmer said

(17:47):
something to the words of I'll tell you one day
or one day you'll find out. Anyway, they ran it
in the January nineteen forty four issue of Amazing Stories,
and they had this incredible feedback from readers, some people
saying what's crazy, other people testing it out and saying,
Shaver is onto something. So Raymond Palmer knew when he

(18:07):
was onto a good thing, and to get a bunch
of letters it made him realize, well, this is interesting.
So he contacted Richard Shaver. He wrote back to him
and said, have you got anything else? And Richard Shaver
lo and behold did have something else. A ten thousand
word essay essentially called a Warning to Future Man, And
in this essay, Richard Shaver described a pre deluvial again

(18:29):
before the flood. Civilization of these entities called the Atlans
and the Titans, and they were incredibly sophisticated in all
kinds of things, in art and technology and everything else.
They were spacefaring civilization, and they realized that the planet
Earth was being poisoned by the rays of our sun.
So they built this extensive cavern world to escape the poisons.

(18:50):
But even down there, they realized that the poisons were
harming them, so they fled the planet. They went off
into interstellar space to escape the poisons of our world Sun.
But they left behind a number of people which Shaver
called collectively the abandoned Dearrow, and to break it down
into three groups, they were the Darrow and d Remember,

(19:12):
And Shaver's language meant d stood for detrimental, Roe stood
for robot, So they were detrimental robots. And what Shaver
meant by that wasn't that they were mechanical robots, but
that they were driven. The robot was driven by one idea,
and in his his language would indicate it was by
being detrimental. So all the Dearrow wanted to do was
rape and pillage and hurt people. They're also the terroot.

(19:36):
In Shaver's language, the tea was like the Christian cross.
It meant something positive. So they were integrative. They were
the good guys who lived in the cavern world and
up above for essentially us what became mankind. Palmer realized
that he couldn't run this kind of essay in his magazine,
so he recrafted it into a science fiction story called
I Remember Lemuria, which he built up for over a year.

(19:59):
So the the original letter, the mantong alphabet letter, ran
in the January nineteen forty four issue. Palma ran finally,
I Remember Lemuria, his version of Shaver's Warning the Future
Man in the March of nineteen forty five issue, and
he branded it as a racial memory story, which was

(20:19):
a cool term at the time. This idea that somehow,
this Jungian idea, that we could, you know, connect with
the collective unconscious and we all could remember things. And
this story that he did, he just basically turned into
a cool science fiction story about this ancient clash on
planet Earth between these good creatures and these bad creatures
in the Atlans and the Titans going into space. It

(20:42):
went gang busters it went from one hundred and thirty
five thousand, he'd already got it to to one hundred
and eighty five thousand, which was unthinkable in the science
fiction pop world. Then that kind of circulation figure, and
then Palmer knew I'm definitely onto a good thing, and
he continued to run Shaver's stories by Richard Shaver, which

(21:03):
were based on his own experiences. Now quick and they'll
throw it back to you. The quick twist is that
Shaver didn't say it was racial memory. In fact, in
the second story, which was published in Amazing Stories called
Thought Records of Lemuria, the follow up to I Remember Lemuria,
Palmer let Shaver write an introductory kind of letter to
that saying it's not racial memory. I know this stuff

(21:24):
because I have been in the caverns where the Darro
and the Tarot still are. I have accessed the Thought
Records of Lemuria. And so what Palma began to do
with Amazing Stories, which had never been done in science
fiction before, was to say the stories I am running,
and Shaver became the dominant force in Amazing Stories for
the next two to three years. This isn't science fiction.

(21:46):
This is based on a real conflict going on in
the distant past and still beneath our feet with humankind
to day, and the Darrow responsible for most of our misfortunes.
They're hitting us with rays that are making us crash
our cars. They're beaming messages into our head to make
us hate people. They're kidnapping people from the service to
either from the surface of the planet to either eight

(22:07):
or to do terrible experiments on or to use this. Essentially,
they're slaves. And this became a scandal in science fiction.
And I'll throw that.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
It sounds like it sounds like twenty twenty five. To me.
It sounds like twenty twenty five. Nobody's shocked by any
of this today. But here's here's the thing with all
of that. It says to me so many different things
about people in the thirst for knowledge and interesting things

(22:39):
that we are interested in our past that right there,
you know, or the unseen and the mysteries of about
us that is always going to be there for all
of them. We don't have any answers for any of
that even today. So there's that part of it. Second, man,

(22:59):
we love a good story. Don't screw the story up.
Get to the end, right you can have my imagination,
just don't screw it up. And there's that part too
as well. And back then, and this is the third part,
science and fiction. Two keywords here science. Back then everything

(23:22):
was blowing up, everything was blowing up. We think that
we're on the think about what people went through between
nineteen twenty and nineteen forty five, you know, twenty five
simple years from the year two thousand to now right,
you get stereo radio, you get television, you get the

(23:43):
nuclear bomb, you've got jet airplanes, you've got rockets, you
have cars, you have highway systems being built, anything that
you can, telephones, anything that you know what I mean,
anything that you can imagine was invented if you just
imagined it. So people had a huge interest in all
of this. You combine all of that into Shavers work Man.

(24:07):
That's a home run.

Speaker 4 (24:08):
Isn't it.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
And it was a home run.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
In fact, at the height of amazing stories, the height
of the Shaver run. Palmer got the circulation up to
a quarter of a million. It was unthinkable. And this
is actual sales. Now. I've advertised in magazines, as you
probably have as well. When you advertise in a magazine,
they say, well, we've got a circulation of whatever, but
the readership is actually probably four or five times out
because it's in doctors' offices and families are reading and

(24:34):
everything else. So there were probably millions of Americans who
were cognizant of what the Shaver mystery was, not to
mention that it got covered in mainstream magazines like Life
and in Harpers. This was a cultural phenomenon at the
dawn of the UFO era. Don't forget, as you will know,
but this is for the audience, because I know you
know this inside and out that it is June of

(24:56):
nineteen forty seven where the UFO for phenomenon, the modern
flying source of phenomenon explodes in the news wise of
the day after Kenneth Arnold's sighting above Mount Rainier. On
the newsstands of America when Arnold had his sighting was

(25:18):
the June nineteen forty seven issue of Amazing Stories, which
was the all Shaver issue. Now, some people would say
for the last two years it was already the all
Shaver magazine Amazing Stories, because the Shaver mystery was front
and center, the most important thing it ran. But this
issue was nothing but the Shaver Mystery. The June nineteen
forty seven issue. All that it had in the pages

(25:40):
of that was stories by Richard Shaver, articles by people
who were kind of complementing the Shaver mystery, including an
article called Voices Visitors from the Void rather Visitors from
the Void by Vincent Gaddis, who was one of the
great Fourtians of that period and wrote regularly for Ray

(26:00):
Palmer in Amazing Stories. And Vincent Gaddis's piece in the
June nineteen forty seven issue was essentially about flying sources,
before that term had been popularized to mean extraterrestrial craft
visiting the planet. So when Arnold has his sighting, the
Amazing Stories issue has this piece that well, it has

(26:21):
the Shaver Mystery special, but it has this piece by
Vincent Gadders talking about craft visiting his planet from elsewhere
with historical examples. Amazing Stories as John Keel said that
the late great John Keel, who most of your listeners
will probably know, is the author of the Mothman Prophecies
and many other important books. Kiel recognized this after the

(26:44):
fact that he said Ray Palmer was the man who
invented flying sources. He'd laid all of this out. He'd
had two to three years of the Shaver Mystery had
covers with Flying Sources on it before Flying Sources appeared
in the American skies. He had articles by people like
Vincent Gadders. He was taught talking about Charles Fort's theories
about people from elsewhere visiting us and owning this planet

(27:05):
and capturing us. And the Shaver Mystery didn't just have
the Darrow and the Terot beneath this planet. They had
extraterrestrials visiting us and combating the people beneath the planet,
and the Shaver Mystery had sett all of this up. Again,
millions of Americans were conscious of this.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, and okay, So I'm going to make I want
you to comment on two points. I want to make
the folklore, the mythology behind ray is supported by biblical
stories and the Ananaki and the Watchers and all of that.

(27:43):
If you look at the similarities between them. These stories
have been told and retold, you know, for generations. That's
the first thing. So the story is easy for people
to digest because they probably heard it before, another version
of it, and it's just repeating to themselves. So I
want your reaction to that because you're the PhD. But

(28:04):
the second thing, Ray Palmer and people, when if you
do a deep dive into uthology and you really follow
what is connected what happened with Moury Island and Kenneth
Arnold's involvement with that, and who picked up the phone

(28:25):
and called Kenneth and told him to get him to
get on the story was Ray Palmer and Fate Magazine.
And that's it's just like incestuous weird things. And everybody,
not everybody, but two or three people that were involved
with Moury Island in the very beginning were agents, secret agents,

(28:50):
federal agents that went through every big UFO moment and
historical conspiracy from Maury Island all the way to the
Kennedy assassination and beyond, same names, Same it's and Ray

(29:11):
Palmer Man drive in the car. It's like, it's crazy,
isn't it.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
It's nuts, And there's so much to unpack there so quickly.
Your first point about the idea of ancient civilizations, ancient
aliens visiting as the annarchy, all of these kind of ideas,
you're right today. Everybody probably since the late sixties, in
the seventies, thanks to Eric von Dannik And now thanks
to shows like Ancient Aliens and everything in between, we've

(29:38):
been so conditioned to re examine ancient texts within the
context of them perhaps pointing to extraterrestrial or advanced technological
civilizations when we're looking at the Bible, or we're looking
at you know whatever, fill in the blank, whatever ancient
text you want to look at with you know, beings
with incredible power who come from the heavens and everything else.

(30:02):
But of course, when RAYP. Palm and Richard Shaver were
plugging this stuff in the mid nineteen forties, there was
no Eric von Danakin. No Eric was still twenty five
years away. Ancient Aliens was still like seventy years away,
like you know, there was a big So this what
much of what we think of today, which we're so

(30:22):
conditioned to is anybody vaguely interested in the field, or
probably anybody at all who watches it consumes any television
the idea of ancient astronauts or ancient aliens, probably while
it had been talked about slightly before them. I mean,
there's a long historical, you know, record of this, but
it's really the Shaver of mystery and Rapealm, who drums
this again millions of readers right into the collective unconscious

(30:47):
before the UFO era begins, so they've set all of
this up. And today we often people talk about it
and start with Eric wondanikin again with Charits and the Gods,
and I think sixty eight or sixty nine was the
German version, and then we got it in the wester
year later. But it all literally goes back to Palma
and Shave, and we can talk a little bit later
about some of Shaver's own archaeological work. That's kind of

(31:09):
a different story. But to get to your second point,
which was Moury, Ireland, which I think really hammers home
the centrality of Raymond Palmer to the development of so
much of what we believe in contemporary euthology. Because I
often use the term X FILESFO belief or X files eupology,

(31:32):
and when I use that term as a kind of
not dismissive, but I just use it because I think
people understand what that means. The idea of a government conspiracy,
the idea of crash sources, the idea of a cover up,
the idea of abductions, all of these type of things
that actually been laid by Palmer and Shaver earlier, and
then by Palmer with the Moury Island incident. So what

(31:52):
happens is just a very quick overview because you suggest
let's talk about about moriolm. This will just take me
a couple of minutes. But Kenneth Arnold, and I'm sure
almost all of you, all of your listeners will realize this,
But Kenneth Arnold siding of nine crescent shape craft flying
near Mount Rainier in June of nineteen twenty four, nineteen

(32:15):
forty seven, sparks what we consider the modern UFO era.
So he's a private pilot, he's flying in that part
of Washington State and he sees these nine where they
weren't flying sources, ironically, and that's a very long story
on how they became flying sources through various press interpretations
and everything else. But he saw nine crescent shape craft

(32:36):
moving at incredible speed near Mount Rainier, and he reported
this when he landed, and all of a sudden it
became a national news story and it got shortened to
that he saw flying sauces, and this became the modern
concept of what you know extraterrestrial craft kind of looked
like flying disc shaped craft. Anyway, Arnold became a national

(32:58):
figure because of this store. After that event, there was,
of course the Roswell event that a lot of people
tend to trace now to the beginning of the UFO story.
But what we forget today is modern people interested in eupology,
is from the nineteen forty seven press release by the
US Army Air Force Base in Roswell, New Mexico, that

(33:18):
they crashed a down sauce and then they retracted it
a day later. Is that America forgot Roswell. America literally,
Roswell literally isn't mentioned in the UFO material, the UFO
literature between nineteen forty seven when it dropped. It never
got picked up by them then, because there was no
UFO literature until the late nineteen seventies early nineteen eighties.
In fact, they have the two major nineteen eighty encyclopedias

(33:42):
of the UFOs, one by one by Margaret Sachson, one
by Ronald's story on my Bookshelf over There, and neither
of them even mentioned Roswell.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
And neither did you know what? Neither did long John
Nebel It was forgotten, We've forgotten, and he had Kenneth
Arnold on his show frequent guest on the reason why
I bring up long John Nebel was for the longest time,
for two solid decades. He covered every angle of every

(34:12):
story with every possible guest that you can think of,
six nights a week, and those guests they covered. In
the nineteen fifties, Nazi UFOs huge subject for his show,
all of the big researchers, all of the any but
you know what I mean, Arthur C. Clark was on

(34:32):
his show absolutely right, and so they mentioned every case
except Roswell.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Can you imagine you or Art Bill or George Nory
never mentioning Roswell would be I'm thinking.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
That that's the solid point right there, That's the solid point.
You know what is Go ahead?

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Now do you know what is mentioned in all those
early UFO books for the first few decades the Ireland incidence?

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yes, it.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Okay? And now what was Themory Island incident? Because you asked,
and I know you know, but I'll do a very
quick overview of that. So and this rewinds the Shaver
mystery very very quickly. Two. One of the parts of
the Shaver mystery was Raye Harmer knew how to encourage
letters from people to propel his story of the Shaver mystery,
which was again was a wonderful publicity gimmick for Amazing

(35:27):
Stories drove the magazine from one hundred.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
And a huge part, a huge part of them was
publishing letters and getting debate, going with the readers too,
as well a lot of fun. They had fun.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
They were great letters. One individual, well, but probably a
number of individuals wrote twice. But one individual was an
individual who you've referenced without saying his name, so you
know who he is, and that was Fred Christman. Fred
Chrisman wrote a couple of letters to Amazing Stories in
the nineteen forties saying, and this is remember the Arrow
with a terrible alien underground beings who were interfering with

(36:04):
the surface realm, saying that he who was he was
an Air Force pilot, Army Air Force pilot in World
War two, and that he'd been shot down in Burma
or over Burma, and when he crashed on an island,
he'd ended up in the cave system of the island
and had essentially a battle with the Darrow. And I
think they'd used a laser and they shot a hole

(36:26):
through his arm or the hole through his buddy's arm,
and he was begging Palma, don't cover this story. It's dangerous.
And he wrote another letter with similar tones to Palmer anyway,
flashed forward to post the Kenneth Arnolds siding. On June
twenty four, nineteen forty seven, Fred Chrisman, who's already been
in contact with Ray Palmer twice, sends him a letter

(36:49):
accompanied with a bunch of slag, saying that there has
been this UFO incidence where this saucer has dropped debris
in the vicinity of Maury Island, which is off the
west coast of America near Seattle and Tacoma. And this
is something you should look into now, Ray Palmer again,
he can always smell a good story. Ray Palmer is

(37:11):
in the process of launching Fate magazine at this time.
He hasn't launched it yet, but that's a that's a
tale for maybe later in the show. But what does
Ray Palmer do? Again? He knows this is a good story.
And who does he think of the second there's a
story about flying sources. Kenneth Arnald, who aren't the country
the country's major witness. Again, he knows how to put

(37:31):
a story together. So Ray Palmer contacts Kenneth Arnold and says,
there's this story of a flying sauce incident above Moury Islands.
I know you live in the Pacific Northwest. I think
he was based in Idaho or somewhere. Can you go
and investigate this for me? And he offers. I think Arnold,
there's various versions. I've heard Palmer in recording say five

(37:53):
hundred dollars. I've heard other people say two hundred dollars.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
What I heard two hundred in a hotel room.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
That's right, that's one of them. In another one's five
hundred hotel room. Right. Whatever reason, Arnold takes Arnold, and
this story is a long, convoluted once, I'll making sure
Arnold takes and then I'll throw it back to you.
Arnold takes Palm up on the offer, and he pilots
his private plane to Tacoma, Washington, on the west coast

(38:19):
shores of Washington State, directly opposite Maury Islands. And then
the investigation begins, and I'll throw back because otherwise I
could talk about fifteen minutes.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
No, that is here's here's the crazy part about this story.
That part of the story after he lands his plane.
After that, it's a complete issue of Mad magazine. Spy
versus Spy, it is Yeah, yeah, yeah, You've got bugged
hotel rooms, tap lines, missing debris, replaced debris, people listening

(38:55):
in shadowy figures, the whole Miss Lee eating stories, misterrections,
dead drops. You know, it's like everything that you can
imagine goes on there between Fred Christmin and and all
the other individuals that are involved with us, including the
crew of the fishing boat. But Fred Chrismin, as crazy

(39:21):
as this is for me to say, not only is
he legit, he's a real person and he's an agent.
Fred Chrisman is in Oliver Stone's JFK movie. Did you
know that?

Speaker 2 (39:38):
You know what, I've seen the movie so many times
I forgot.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
I forget who plays him in the movie. Wow, yeah yeah,
oh yeah, oh he sees. Fred Chrisman was knee deep
in it throughout American history. And you can just tie
his name, you can put his you know, put the
pins in the map and the dates and go that
this guy was at the center of all the crazy.

(40:05):
For a Christmin keeps popping up and I'm talking about
jaegg Or Hoover, secret seances, religious secret orders. It's long,
but here we have Fred at the origins of everything
up there in Tacoma. It was absolutely not Tacoma, Moury Island.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Tacoma's on the mainland. You're right, So he was Tacoma based.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All of this is based in
and around Tacoma and Seattle because there's an Army airfield
there too as well. So anyway, so back where Okay,
here's where Maury Island to me gets crazy town. A
plane did crash. A plane did crash, killing the pilots

(40:56):
that was carrying the debris, the slash, whatever it was
from the Maury Island incident. And that's the part where
you go, Okay, Fred, did you know that people were
going to start dying in this in this story? Ray Palmer,
did you know that? You know something like that? You know,
you go and you stir the hornets nets like this,

(41:19):
and now there's evidence, and there's this and that, and
they're going to get this stuff to Washington, d C.
As quick as they can. They're going to put this
on a B twenty six Mitchell and fly this stuff
out of Tacoma. And the plane crashes and people die.
You know. That's that's the part where you back up
and you go, man, there, Maybe there's something more to
this story than what we think. Is this? You know,

(41:42):
is this? Is this? Ray Palmer? Is this something else?
Is this Fred Crimson letting it get away from him?
I don't know. What do you think?

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Well, it's interesting that you asked did they know? According
to Ray Palmer, he did know. According to Ray Palmer
in a tape speech that I have which appears in
my upcoming feature documentary, Palmer actually warn Kenneth Arnald, do
not let those Air Force agents get on that plane
with that material, because I do not believe they will

(42:15):
make it back to base. And it's significant that that's
actually the first two fatalities, those two investigators who came
to Moory Island. And again, just quickly, this is all
because of Ray Palmer. We would have forgotten the Moury
Island incident if it wasn't for him. He hires Kenneth
Arnald to go there. Kenneth Arnald when he gets in
over his head, as you were mentioning, he's scared his

(42:35):
rooms being tapped. There's men in black activity. The first
men in black activity in UFO law. By the way,
there's all this weirdness. What does Kennethanald do. He calls
the two investigating officers of his own case from the
Air Force to come and help him. So they fly
and as you said on a B twenty six, and
after they interview Harold Dahl, the pilot of the boat

(42:55):
which first saw the UFO debris crash thing, and Fred
chris and they don't apparently think a whole lot of it,
but Fred Chrisman insists they take material back with them.
And when Arnold was on the phone to Ray Palmer,
Ray Palmer said, do not let those two agents fly
back to their base. The reason the agents were in

(43:16):
the reason the two Air Force officers intelligence agents were
in a hurry to get back to their base was
this was the day. It's such a weird story. This
is when the US Army and the US Air Force split,
because up until this day it was the US Army
Air Force, and this was when the Air Force had
just separated from the Army and they were having US

(43:39):
Air Force Day, their great celebration. So the two officers
that were investigating and thought, this is just a crazy story.
We want to get back to base to celebrate this,
so they flew back very quickly. So this is literally
the first two US Air Force fatalities and the history
of the service. Were the two men investigating Maury Island.
So obviously from then in its spots, because whatever the

(44:01):
reality of the incidents, when you lose two US Air
Force officers, they got the two other crew members to
bail in parachutes, they continued operating the plane, and the
plane went down near Kelso, Washington. They both died, and
then the FBI get involved. So then the story spirals
into something even bigger than Ray Palmer ever could have

(44:21):
imagined when he first pointed Kenneth Arnold at this weird
UFO kind of debris crash story which he got in
his he got in a letter from from Fred Christman,
I mean getting to Fred Chrisman Moore as well if.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
You want, well, okay, so Fred Chrisman, check this out.
Fred Chrisman and his involvement with Garrison's investigator talking about JFK.
Garrison's investigation is part of the extensive conspiracy theory that
the film explores through the eyes of the District Attorney
Chrisman is believed to be one of the inspirations for

(44:55):
the enigmatic mister X. The high level pentagon of fish
Or play by Donald Sutherland, who provides Garrison with detailed
explanation of the conspiracy Mister Rax and others. Is Chrisman himself,
who is portrayed in the film as a mysterious figure
tied to the broader conspiracy narrative. Fred Christman. Right, it's

(45:20):
played by Donald Sutherland. Yeah, nuts, huh it is not.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
So, you know, there's a wonderful animator. I run a
film festival called Midwest wed Fest, as you mentioned in
your introduction, and a few years ago the film which
won Best Animated Film was by Brian Shickley, and it's
called It's called something like in the Cave of the
Space Nazis and it's about Fred Chrisman fighting the Darrow.
And he has this whole series with Fred Chrisman and

(45:46):
Ray Palmer and Richard Shaver. So I would encourage anybody
who's interested in seeing a comic view of what we're
talking about look into Brian Shickley's Yeah, I think I
think it's in the Cave of the Space Nazis the
name of it.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
And here's Here's the other part which I really enjoy
about the way that you approach all of this is that,
and I mean this in the most warm heart felt way.
Chariots of the Gods, for so many reasons, caught everybody's

(46:24):
attention right at the right time. I cannot and everybody
that does this and does what I do when I
go to Egypt or I'm walking to I'm flying over
the NASCAR lines. You know, I've got that film replaying
in my head. It's very in the book. It's so influential,

(46:44):
and yeah, yeah, and so when you look at these
aspects of this, it's the greatest invention in human history.
The greatest invention is the story, not made up or true,
it doesn't matter. It's the ability to oorate and to
communicate with somebody else and express yourself so they can

(47:08):
turn around and respond. That's the story, right, And it's
the greatest thing. And so we get intrigued into the story,
right and as soon as your mind, it's in our DNA,
it's the way our brain works. And Ray Palmer a
very smart guy. The opposite side of the fence is

(47:30):
somebody like Fred Christman. Both of these guys know how
to tell a story and how to keep people's attention
by telling that story, because you're just feeding what we crave, right,
It's just human nature, isn't It's just our DNA from
the dawn of man.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Yeah. I think that's a massive part of all of this.
I think that we operate in a space where we
like to think it's only delivering information. But if you're
only delivering information, it's so incredibly boring. It's infotainment really,
the paranormal UFO space, because people want to hear the story.
And I remember seeing Share It to the Gods with

(48:12):
my mom in a cinema. It might have been a
repeat in Australia, and I think there was another documentary
on psychic phenomenon. I was a little kid, but I
was mesmerized the same way I was mesmerized by Lennon
Nimoy's In Search of which in Australia was rebranded as
Great Mysteries of the Universe or something. But those things
knew how to tell a story, and if you just

(48:34):
lay down the facts, then it doesn't become something which
grabs you. And Ray Palmer was perhaps one of the
perhaps in this space, the first person who understood how
to tell the paranormal the euphological story as an incredible
attention grabbing thing. Because again, we're probably going to get
to Fate magazine. But before Fate Magazine, there was no

(48:56):
news stand magazine that dealt with the paranormal. Although, ironically,
Ray Palmer's Amazing Stories it started to do that before
as if Davis started to the publishers started to tighten
down on Palmer's efforts. But Palmer understood that if you
wanted to talk about the weed and the unusual and
the fourtien or whatever we want to call it, you

(49:16):
had to spin a good story. He probably was the
first person who understood this in the kind of modern ish,
you know, media landscape which we still exist in today.
He would have loved the Internet, like Palmer would have
lost it.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Up. Well, and then you know, and here's the other
thing with those humans. It's called the truth, right, And
so you turn around and go, well, yeah, well yeah,
it's a good story, but it's true. That's it. You know,
it absolutely seals the deal. I wanted to make a

(49:53):
quick comment about this because we make discoveries all the
time on this planet, and we have existing mysteries there too.
As well, but we weren't around for so much of it.
And what I mean is this, we have history and

(50:16):
we have prehistory. People don't understand necessarily what prehistory is.
We have lots of evidence of prehistory and things, but
prehistory is before writing, okay, before documentation. So so much
as go to a museum and you want to see
something that's, you know, ten thousand years old, before history,

(50:38):
and go and look at it. It's absolutely crazy. The ladder,
the ladder that you climb, right, Okay, well, there are
depictions of the ladder in Valencia and Spain on a
cave wall. Holy crap. But my point is with all
of this, you hear about it, but then when you

(51:00):
see it, you have confirmation, and that suddenly comes in.
And so when Shaver is talking about these artifacts that
he's found, and he's down there and he sees this
and he sees it, well, we have the other stuff
that we can't explain too, and it just sounds so
familiar to us. And that's what Shaver was doing when

(51:21):
he was bringing up these and writing about these different
artifacts and the things that he witnessed. With technology, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
I think that the great potency of the Shave of Mystery,
and the Great Joshua Cutcheen is one of my favorite
thinkers in the paranormal space today. Makes this point in
the film, both my short film The Shave Mystery and
in the feature, is that, however you want to look
at The Shave of Mystery, whether you want to look
at it is literally true, or whether you want to

(51:53):
look at it as some science fiction hoax, as some
people do, you can't ignore the fact that there's very
powerful archetypal ideas there which resonate across our culture. The
idea of earlier civilizations which were very technologically advanced, the

(52:13):
idea of their being giants in prehistory, the idea of
there being some type of world beneath our feet. These
things exist in so many stories. Whether it's biblical stories,
whether it's fairy faith, whether it's legends from any part
of the world. You want to point out, these stories

(52:35):
are very similar. So does that mean that they're real?
Well maybe, but it certainly means that they resonate so
strongly with us as human kind, as a species, or
whatever immediate culture that we come from, that they ring
some bell which makes us all pay attention as soon
as we hear them, and I think it's still true today.

(52:57):
I think that's the reason that things like ancient aliens
that were as powerful as the Shape of Mystery was,
which were as powerful as ignacious Donnelly's writings on Atlantis
was in the nineteenth century, or as powerful as fairy
faith was. Wherever we want to go, these things seem
to us to be true. And whether that means true

(53:18):
in a physical reality or in a spiritual reality, or
in a psychological psychological reality, there's something there which I
don't think we can escape as a species, which we
can't look away from.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
You can't. When you do something as dramatic as fly
over the Nasca lines and look out the window, all
you can do is go, holy shit, it's all true.
It's all true. There's nothing, there's nothing that is not
true anymore, because it is a giant beyond what you

(53:52):
can amound. I'm not talking about the glyphs. I'm talking
about the Nasca planes. Those lines go from horizon to horizon.
It's that big you don't understand, and you're flying around
and you see you just go, how can this be?
This doesn't make any sense. There's nothing that can explain this.
That is going to be satisfactory, and which goes back

(54:16):
to you know, when Shave where I wanted to ask
you this, because I'll continue this thought, or you can
continue my thought. Where were these tunnel entrances?

Speaker 2 (54:25):
For Shaver, that's a good question. I think that both
Palmer and Shaver suggested there were entrances at the polls,
which has since obviously become a popular point in hollow
earth theory, which Palmer really also banged the drum of
later in his Flying Sources magazines and in in Search
in other of his publications. But to Shaver, they were everywhere,

(54:48):
and you should be very careful if you entered them.
But beneath most major cities, and you've heard the long
John Nabel Show with Shaver and Palmer, there were stories
which were being popular in a Neebeles program that if
you were in an elevator in a big city in
some buildings like in New York or Chicago, in big

(55:08):
you know, cities in America, and if you pressed the
buttons the right way, the elevator would go down to
the subsurface world. And Shaver always suggested that most major
cities because he thought they were more crime ridden and
they thought he thought they were noisier and more dangerous,
and they bothered him personally with whatever psychological reason. That

(55:32):
there were Darrow colonies beneath these cities, and so basically
everywhere there are entrances, according to Shaver, all over the planet,
and there were popular versions as well. Of course, the
suggestion of Mount Shasta came up, which people think there
are undergrounds elements of Mammoth Cave and the cave systems
in Kentucky. People thought there were major entrances in and

(55:54):
Shaver himself when he moved to my neck of central
Wisconsin Amherstwiss cons which Atlantic He was on the borders
of Amherst, which is just the county over from me.
He according to the late great Gray Barker in his
seminal UFO book, they knew too much about flying Sources,
which has one of the greatest overviews of the Shaver

(56:15):
mystery I've ever read in that book, which was an
early mid nineteen fifties UFO book. According to Grey Barker,
who knew both Palmer and Shave, a Shaver had told
him that he had moved to Amherst, Wisconsin because there
was a terot colony beneath Amherst, Wisconsin, and the Tarot
were the good people. They were the integrative underground people
who protected him from the interference of the Darrow. So,

(56:40):
according to Shaver, these entrances were everywhere.

Speaker 3 (56:44):
I'm looking here. I'm going to pull this up here
in just a second. I have the maps of the
cave system underneath the Los Angeles and yeah, I've got
it right here, okay. And the article, one of the
main articles in the La Times is called the Lost

(57:08):
City of the Lizard People. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,
and so La I'm gonna pull this up here, and
this was in the La Times, La Maps. Okay, let's
just do this. Boom done. And this is you know,

(57:29):
the reason why I find this also interesting and is
very important to this show today is this predates everything
by over forty years from the Ray Palmer thing. Strange coincidence.
But the elevator part of this and what was discussed

(57:50):
a lot on Long John Neble is underneath the major cities.
And then we have this story. Here's this is from
the La Times. Ready check that out. Wow, yeah yeah,
So and this is from eighteen It's all here too.

(58:13):
Bunker Hill, all the Hills. It's all here, and it is.
It's pretty nuts. There is a bunch of and you
can go and look. Okay, hold on for a second.
This Yeah, I thought I had the Okay, I'm gonna

(58:34):
get off of this. I don't want to delay the show.
But there's also the original newspaper articles. Here's one here.
This is from nineteen thirty three. This is the La Times.
Here's the headline lizard People's catacomb, under city hunted. And

(59:00):
so there's all these photographs of people underneath Los Angeles
in these cave systems and with photographs. So yeah, it's
totally worth. It's totally worth. The rabbit old jumped down. Man,
It's it's yeah, it's it's pretty cool. Stay right there, Dean,
let's take our break. We're going to do that now.
I'm your host, Jimmy Church. This is Fade to Black.

(59:22):
Dean Bertram is with us tonight. We're talking about the
shape or Mystery. I'll be right back after the shore break.

Speaker 4 (59:28):
Stay with us.

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(01:01:55):
gonna do. Next year in twenty twenty six, what's going on?

Speaker 5 (01:01:57):
Okay, November twenty twenty six to have our major tour
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(01:03:24):
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Church Tonight, Tean Bertram is with us.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
PhD.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
By the way, well earned I'll never have one is
with us. We're talking about the Shaver mystery. I do
want to mention. Give a big shout out to Ernest Skinner.
I was a guest on his podcast today and you
can check it out at Border City Rock Talk. Head
over to YouTube and it's probably already up. And a

(01:03:55):
big shout out to Ernest. Great questions, great conversation. Yeah,
we did a rock and roll and UFOs my two
favorite things, My two favorite things. Absolutely. All right, let's
get back to it here. I want to jump into
another part of all of this, because it's always about

(01:04:17):
bring the receipts right and where's the evidence what's going
on here? And Shaver attempted to provide that stuff, and
we'll get to that. But then to add to all
of this, and I've seen a lot of presentations at
different conferences about the Shaver mystery and all of his
Admiral bird and his expedition down to Antarctica, and I

(01:04:43):
still I'm serious, Dean, to this day, I don't know
what to make of that the expedition did occur. Why
did he go down there with armed men, right, you know,
thousands and aircraft and and then the things that are
attributed to him and his statements come from a newspaper.

(01:05:08):
I think it was in Argentina when he was coming back,
and the publication put these quotes out that are still
there to this day. Those comments that Admiral Bird made
are only really sourced from that one spot. But it
starts to support the Shaver mystery, doesn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
Yeah, I can't speak to whether those stories affectual or not.
Certainly it seemed super mysterious his expeditions down they consideringly
seem to be at some kind of quasi military force,
and there's all kinds of rumors that maybe the Nazis
post World War two had some kind of base there,
or maybe he was investigating the type of things that

(01:05:53):
Ray Palmer suggested after the shape of mystery that there
were entries to the polls both that are to the
inner Earth, both at the North Pole and at the
South Pole. So I don't know if I'm capable of
dissecting that as in a story to whether the factuality of.

Speaker 4 (01:06:12):
It or not.

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
I certainly know it's a big part of the story.
As far as our idea on the Holowarth, I also
will say personally, there's something very strange about Antarctica, like
the kind of the international treaties and the inability for
people to go there, like there is definitely a weirdness there.
And I think whenever there is a closure of space,
whether it's like closure around area fifty one or whether

(01:06:36):
it's closure around you know, Antarctica, I think that by
nature builds people suspicion. Like there's something about if there's
a space on the map that we can't get to,
then why can't we get to it? What's being hidden
there from us? And I think that's a legitimate question
to ask. Why can't we just go Why can't I
just go down to Morrow to Antarctica, or like say,

(01:06:57):
I'm worth millions of dollars and can get you know,
a private plane there and go and look around. Why
can't I just go and wonder around them?

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
Why can't you get a snowmobile and go until it ends?

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
And I don't know about you, but I have Google
Earth pro right, okay, not Google Earth. There is a
Google Earth professional and Antarctica is grade out. You can
go there. You can go there right now, you can
go you know, the edges are there, right, but the

(01:07:28):
center and do you know it's all mapped, you know,
it's all photographed. It's the most photographed thing you know
on planet Earth. We've got every kind of geostationary uh
imaging satellites you know, all over everything there, including Google Earth.
But no, not that, man, it it stops. It's grade out.

(01:07:48):
You can't see it. Why, I mean, why if it's
just ice, right, what's the what's what's the big deal?
But no, they've they've got it grayed out for sure. Yeah,
it's it's it's a it's another part of this. And
then Admiral Bird made a couple of commons. Again historically,

(01:08:11):
I can't really tie this to him directly, like it,
you know, he verified this, but he said while flying
that they witnessed craft that could circle the Earth in
an hour. Those are big words from back then. I
mean that was just behind beyond any comprehension, still beyond

(01:08:34):
comprehension today, and that there was an entrance to the
inner Earth, going back to the Shaver, that's the core
part of the Shaver mystery is the inner Earth. What's
your definition of that?

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
Well? I think there were There are different interpretations of
what the inner Earth is. There's the idea of a
hollow Earth, and there are various ideas of what that entails.
One of the versions is the idea of I guess
there's a crust on the planet, and we're on the
upside of the crust, and underneath the crust there's another
civilization which operates on the other side of the crust.

(01:09:13):
There was also weird Nazi hollow earth theories that imagine
it kind of inverted, like we were living on the
inside of the crust. And Burger and Powell's talk about
this a little bit in their kind of classic again
pre more pre von Danik and book The Morning of
the Magicians. This idea that the Nazis had these concepts

(01:09:37):
of hollow Earth and we were on the inside and
we kind of could, you know, we could maybe we
were looking through it. Sometimes maybe we weren't. They had
Apparently the Nazis even spent a whole lot of money
working on a kind of early radar sonar idea where
they would point it up, thinking that okay, we're in

(01:09:58):
you know where in the where if we're in the
North Sea, if we point it up, we'll be pointing
it at England. Like there was this real idea in
Nazi Germany for a while that there was a hollow
earth and we were on the inside. Apparently I think
the Shaver idea is subtly different to the earlier version.
I talked about the Earth's hollow, and there's a civilization

(01:10:19):
on the inside walking around on the other side of
the crust. Shavers aversion seemed to suggest that there was
an extensive cavern world, not so much that the world
itself was hollow, but there was a cavern system which
was maybe somewhat preexistent. But I also built out extensively

(01:10:39):
and tunneled more extensively by the Atlands and Terrans in
those Titans, rather the Atlands and the Titans in those
early days when they were trying to escape the Sun's rays.
So I think there's various versions of what the hollow
Earth means. And this goes back even beyond Shaver. Of course,
the idea of Shoal or Hell being beneath the planet,

(01:10:59):
the idea year of the underworld in Greek and Roman
and mythology being underneath the planet, the idea in fairy
faith in Ireland that the fairies had somehow the she
had the Tatoodun and had somehow gone underground to another civilization.
So I think there I think there have been attempts

(01:11:19):
by various scientists and pseudoscientists in the in the eighteenth
and nineteenth century to imagine the way a hollow Earth
actually might operate, including holes of the polls. And then
there are other earlier traditions which I think Shaver might
fit in a little bit more neatly, about underground civilizations
which have built cavern worlds underneath underneath our planet.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
Could the world handle what is actually going on combined
with I'm talking about a reality some paradigm shit that
pops up because right now we have elected officials in Washington.

Speaker 6 (01:12:02):
Right, Well, maybe these UFOs are just us from before
that they've always been here, you know, living in our oceans,
living underground.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
These are our elected officials, Dan, this.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Is missus Shaver of being talked about in Congress. Now
that's right?

Speaker 3 (01:12:21):
What what the hell's going on? And and and what
if you know, what if this does play out with
something like that, can the world handle some some crazy thing?

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
That's a great question. I mean, I think I think
that's a really good question. What would people be more
disturbed by the idea that there's extraterrestrials visiting the planet,
which has been pretty much spoon fed to them from
science fiction even before the alien invasion movies of the
nineteen fifties, but certainly since the alien invasion movies of
the nineteen fifties, the day still in the War of

(01:12:56):
the Worlds or Earth versus the Flying sources. I feel
it all in, all the way up to the X
Files and Men in Black and beyond to today, or
that there is a crypto terrestrial civilization talked about by
people like Kalputov in recent papers, people from Harvard in
recent papers dating back and even quoting Shave, or like
even looking back at Shaver. Would it be more difficult

(01:13:19):
for people to think that there's an advanced civilization existing
beneath the surface of this planet, maybe beneath the oceans
of this planet, interacting with us.

Speaker 3 (01:13:31):
We would lose our minds.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
I think so too. I think the second is less
culturally acceptable because we haven't. But I mean since since
Palmer's attempts and Shaver's attempts and Amazing stories and in
Palmer's magazines after that, I don't think people as inculturated
to that idea as they are to ET's visiting us
from the distance. If this civilization lived here like next
to us, that is scarier.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
I think, yeah, for sure, we our ability uh and
you study this but and I realize I'm preaching to
the choir. But our ability to understand just increases every day.
Every day that rolls by, we are able to understand

(01:14:17):
a little bit more. That's just the way nature works. Okay,
So understanding the size of the universe, which we're grappling
with now. But what we do understand about the universe
that every star's got a planet. There are trillions of
stars in the Milky Way, there are trillions and trillions

(01:14:40):
of galaxies. Therefore, there is a buttload of life out there.
We're okay with that. We've been you know, you know
what I mean. Our ability to understand that, Our ability
to understand Atlantis, right, that's a whole another thing. Man,

(01:15:02):
the ice Melton, Antarctica, and they find some you know,
million year old city underneath the ice. I don't know
if we could handle that, et would be passe a.

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
You know, it's interesting. I think one of the reasons
Shaver's ideas, let's call it Shaverrism because people use that term,
didn't ignite as well as some of some other ideas. Incidentally,
like l Ron Hubbard was writing dianetics in the in
the competitive magazine Astounding, like that's where he first wrote

(01:15:37):
his pieces. And obviously scientology became a massive thing with
big church systems and hundreds of thousands of members and
all kinds of influences around the world. But that system
had the idea that you could improve that there was happiness.
The UFO contact ees, people like a. Damski onwards, had
the idea of some type of spiritual enlightenment, so that

(01:15:58):
was very attractive to people. Shaver's interpretation of the cosmos
and our immediate environment was not as positive. It was
nowhere near as positive. It was that there are these
beings under the planet, and the bad guys outnumbered the
good guys, and the good guy's helpers sometimes who were
the Tero. They help us sometimes, but they're facing a

(01:16:20):
constant battle against the Darrow, who are always beating them.
The Darro are just hitting us with these rays, make
sending weird voices into our head, causing us to fall downstairs,
causing us to be plane accidents, causing us to kill people,
starting wars. Shaver had no spiritual happy ending. Shaver's only

(01:16:41):
hope was that the governments of the world would listen
to what he was saying, and somehow we would get
a military expedition together and go down into the caverns
and kill those damn Darrow and take their technology. There
was no happiness. Like most religious religious versions of reality
have some kind of you know, calming belief system that

(01:17:02):
makes you happy, Shaver's belief system had none of this.
He didn't have He was an atheist. He had no
spiritualism in him. He thought that there was a practical
evil threatening us and had been haunting the planet from before.
You know, we existed as a species as we do now.
They were here before us, and they were menacing us constantly.

(01:17:24):
So it's hard to convince people to jump onto that
kind of cosmology, and that, I think is exactly what
you're saying today. It would be so hard to tell
people where they're not advanced space brothers, like Stephen Grier says,
or you know, there's no happy you know, the day
they stood still messaging these are hideous creatures below the
surface who wishes nothing but ill will, according to Shaver,

(01:17:46):
and we better we better get down there and fight
them in some extensive military battle to win. Like that's
not a happy theology. You can get people to jump onto.

Speaker 3 (01:17:55):
It's really funny how I'm not I fall victim to
this too. Okay, But we always are hoping for a hero,
somebody that's gonna come and save us. Let's say it's
all gonna be all right. We got to go through
some shit first, but then it's all going to get better, right,

(01:18:16):
and and the hero's journey, right, it always plays out
that way. But what if what if et shows up
and we ask him? You know, okay, man, so when
will it get better? It doesn't, right, what do you mean?
Oh no, No, you're gonna chase You're gonna chase eternal

(01:18:39):
bliss forever. It never happens, It just gets worse. What
if that's the message, you know, like like the Darrow
it's like, well there's good Darrow, right, Nope, No, you
know what I mean. It's it's it's so weird all
of the and it doesn't matter what the alien invasion

(01:19:01):
movie is us Trailer Park Earth managed to defeat an
interstellar species with particle being weapons, right and whatever they have,
but we defeat them with a cult forty five and
a couple Molotov cocktails, right, And that we're we're gonna

(01:19:22):
win this, so we don't have to worry about it.
And that is something that's been spoon fed to as well,
that man, we're mankind, we're humans, and dang it, we
can figure this out.

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
Yeah. And and Shaver's life ends in poverty in a
cabin in summer Arkansas that I've been to in nineteen
seventy five, penniless, still trying to convince the planet to
listen to him. But perhaps if he'd been like Hubbard
and had some you know, methodology where you could become
a more successful featan or whatever and get there, maybe

(01:19:58):
that would have worked. But his whole his whole message
was we're in real trouble.

Speaker 3 (01:20:02):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
There was no happy ending to it.

Speaker 3 (01:20:05):
Did he ever help me understand this part, because it's
a very interesting part of the story. He talked about artifacts,
he talked about written languages, he talked about finding these
stone tablets and things. Did any of that stuff ever
make it to the public.

Speaker 2 (01:20:24):
That's a great question. I think that's the final chapter
really of the Shave of mystery. So when he lived
near me in Amherst slash Lanic, Wisconsin in from nineteen
forty nine, to about nineteen sixty three sixty four when
he had to flee in a scandal, which is a
whole nother story. But while he was there, his wife

(01:20:46):
Dorothy had discovered these pebbles that she thought looked like
they had little figures, like little images of little figures
and little faces in them. And she put them on
his desk apparently, and said, look at the look into
the pebbles. It looks like there's images in them, faces
and figures and people. And apparently Shaver paid no attention
for a couple of weeks, and then he was just

(01:21:07):
sitting at his desk and he happened to, you know,
pick them up and look at them, and lo and
behold what did he see? Little faces and little figures.
And at first he thought he had somehow where he
was was on top of some ancient temple. He began
to dig up these rocks, which he was convinced was
what he called rock fogo rock books. They were somehow

(01:21:27):
these ancient artifacts which this advanced civilization in the past
had imprinted these imagery and this story in the books,
and he didn't in the rocks, and he didn't have
the technology to properly access them anymore. So he had
to cut the rocks into fine pieces. And even then
all he would capture was like if you saw multiple

(01:21:49):
images of a film frame laid on top of each other,
so multiple faces imprinted on each other. But he did
his best to try to turn this into images people
could understand, and he created all of this art based
on this. He would project the images from the rocks
onto a canvas, and he did this relatively sophisticated process

(01:22:09):
where he tried to bring out the images more. And
so the last two decades of Richard Shaver's life were
him trying to convince the world that he had found
proof of what he had written about in amazing stories
of this pre Deluvial civilization. Now, for the most part,
the world ignored him, and he was essentially forgotten. Even

(01:22:31):
in Summit, he had in front of his house a
little like sign saying look rock art, Come in and
look at it. And he would sit on his front
lawn with tables with this art he had made and
with these rocks he had cut up. I have a
number of his rocks, which I'm very lucky to have obtained.
When I went to Summit and I met one of
the old owners of his house. And I spoke to

(01:22:53):
somebody in someone who knew him and his wife though,
and she said, as far as I'm aware, nobody ever
bought any of these rocks, none of his art. He
would ship it out to fanzines and science fiction and
UFO type independent publications to try to try to get
them interested in it. Ray Palmer published a book which
included some of Palmer's artwork in it, but for some

(01:23:15):
of Shaver's artwork and rocks in it. But for the
most part he made no impression. But after his death.
The fascinating thing is, many years after he became recognized,
which he never intended as an underground artist, it had
showings of his rock arts in major museums and galleries

(01:23:37):
in places like New York City, in LA and San Francisco,
where I met and interviewed. He's in the film. One
of the major I suppose dealers of Shaver artwork. Brian Emrick,
who's the major owner of the remaining Shaver artwork, has
become one of the producers of the feature of The
Man Who Invented Flying Sources and he has an incredible

(01:23:58):
collection of Shaver rock art and rock books and his photos.

Speaker 3 (01:24:03):
Dean, what does that tell you about Richard Shaver that
he's he stands by his original writings and that this
was something that he truly believed in and wanted the
world to know about. That is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2 (01:24:21):
Absolutely, he never wavered like people often accused that being
some kind of hoaxery around the Shaver mystery. Whatever the
reality of the mystery or not. I don't think either
raype Haalmer nor Richard Shaver intended this as a hoax.
I think they both believed that in different ways. We
could get into Palmer's version of his belief he thought
it was more of a spiritual experience that Richard Shaver

(01:24:42):
had had, But Richard Shaver, until his dying day, said
this was a physical experience. And the denownment to shave
A's story, which I might share quickly, which I think
you'll enjoy, is that it's a story that wasn't published
during his lifetime. The late great Timothy Green Beckley publishing
a book on Richard shave from the Inner Earth, edited
by a friend of mine, Tim Schwartz, who.

Speaker 3 (01:25:04):
I have the book. It's incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
Yeah, it's a great book. So you know, the story.
So in his final days in Summit, Arkansas, near the
end of his life, he had been always out there
looking for rock books and he finally found because remember
again he didn't think he had the technology to read
it properly. But according to Shaver, he finally unearthed the
rock book that still had power in it and it

(01:25:27):
worked for and this is before we had like the
tur Ai like this. He wrote this. Remember he died
in seventy five, so this is towards the end of
his life that you know, the mid the earl, the
mid seventies. He said that this rock book still had
power and it worked like what we today would call
it AI system. It projected forth this image of this
beautiful being that in many ways looks like a UFO

(01:25:49):
contact d Shaver himself a UFO alien contact from people
like a Damnskit experience. Is a beautiful being in blue coveralls.
And Shaver at the time even said, this reminds me
of the weird stuff I've read in the Damnski. So
he was reluctant at first, but this being appeared to
him and said, you can access the thought records of Lemuria,
these records that Shaver said he had already accessed when

(01:26:10):
he was in the cavern world, and so this rock
book that he discovered began to lose power, though, and
he continued to look for more rock books. And when
he was on a hillside which I think I've been to,
I've been to what I thought was it on in Summit, Arkansas.
He was out there. He drove out there, he parked
his car. He was looking for more rock books, and

(01:26:31):
he said, all of a sudden, the world went quiet.
It's like the Ods effect which Jenny Randalls has talked about.
The earth went quiet. All the crickets stopped cheeping. He
couldn't hear any birds singing. The wind stopped blowing, and
it was like this great giant glass jar had been
dropped around him. And he passed out. And when he

(01:26:52):
came to, he was back where he hadn't been for decades.
He was back in the cavern world. He was a
prisoner again of the Darrow said he'd been in the past,
and the Darrow tortured him. They used, there, I don't
know what the audience level of your show is, so
I'll make it clean. They used their stem rays upon him,
which caused kind of you know, sexual energy, and he

(01:27:13):
kind of partook in something which an adult kind of activity.
And then the Darrow who were there, they threatened him.
They said, if you don't do what we tell you
to do, we're going to tell your wife about what
we did. We might even hurt your wife. We're going
to destroy your life. We want that rock book back,
the functioning rock book that you got. He passed out again.

(01:27:35):
When he came to, he was back on the hillside
and he went back to his car. It was night
and that was dark. He didn't he thought he'd been
there for days. Much like fairy faith. Like in fairy law,
people don't know and abling inductions as well, they don't
know how long they've gone for. Right, he sped home
to his wife and his small rock cottage in Summit, Arkansas,
the beautiful, tiny little cottage which is still there. And

(01:27:56):
he thought his wife was going to be really worried,
but she didn't seem that worried. Oh, he be gone
for a couple of hours. I'm glad you're home. I've
got your dinner on the stove. But that night he
took that rock and he took it back to the
hillside and he left it there for the Darrow his
semi functioning rock book. And that's pretty much the end
of the shave of mystery.

Speaker 3 (01:28:16):
I always I never take anything. I put it back.
I don't care what ancient side I am. I don't
do it. There's there's a place in Egypt. It's called
Elephant Island. You know about Elephant Island. It's right outside
of Luxor. It's too long of a story, but Elephant

(01:28:39):
Island is the basis of Indiana Jones and the Holy
Grail and or the Arc right, and the Nazis going
and looking for the Arc right. Okay, So the movie

(01:29:01):
is based on Elephant Island, which is a real place.
And so when you go there, and I can't I
can't say why I know this, but I'll just say this,
the arc is still there. Okay, all right, that's it.
I'm gonna leave that part there. But when you go
to Elephant Island, the original third Reich Right archaeological offices

(01:29:29):
are still there, and they spent years digging on that
island looking for the Arc. And it's it's part of
this when when we hear these stories and and and
the stories are real, like they're based in reality. It's

(01:29:52):
it's just a part of all of this. So when
you go to Elephant Island and you know about the
arc being there in Germany, while you're walking everywhere you go, everywhere,
you're walking over broken pottery. Okay, so you can look down.
I'm not dean in any way exaggerating. You can take

(01:30:16):
a step and look down and see pottery with hieroglyphs
on it, and and and pick it up. Now the temptation, right,
nobody's gonna miss that. No, you put that down, you
look at it, don't take it with you, don't don't.
I find stuff all the time around the world. I

(01:30:37):
don't take it with me.

Speaker 4 (01:30:39):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:30:39):
That's a curse, man, that I believe in curses I do.
I just don't. You don't disturb that stuff. But I
want to mention this to you. This is where this
whole story for me gets whack. My own personal experience
up in Washing that string of volcanoes, mountaineer Mount Adams,

(01:31:05):
you know what I mean. Saint Helen's right all the
way across. There's everywhere you look up there, there's a
dormant volcano. Man, They're everywhere. So I'm up there again.
This is a long story I'm gonna give you the
short version. I'm right there, man. So Kenneth Arnold had
his siding between Mountaineer and Mount Adams. Okay, all right,

(01:31:27):
I'm up there. I'm at Mount Adams with two or
three hundred fader notts my friends, and I'm about fourteen
miles away from Mount Adams, which is in front. It's
right there, right, it's you know, snow covered, and I'm
out there with about thirty friends, and I've got a
pair of binoculars. It's three o'clock in the afternoon at

(01:31:52):
Kenneth Arnold's spot and at that moment and we're all
goofing around and I've got these binoca and I'm looking
at birds, I'm looking at Mount Adams. It's like Jenny
Randall says, right, it all goes quiet. And so we're
sitting there and I'm looking through the monocular and from

(01:32:13):
behind Mount Atoms comes this craft in the middle of
the day. And I've told the story many times. You've
hearing this for the first time. So it's called the
beer Can. It looked like a can. It's about four
hundred feet tall, cylindrical and let me change cameras. It's

(01:32:34):
it's doing this, and it's comes out from behind the
mountain and it's going across the sky, no clouds, nothing,
and the sun is reflecting it and I see it.
I'm in the monocular and I lose my mind. I
lose my mind. I can't believe what I'm seeing. And

(01:32:54):
I see it spinning. It's perfectly in focus. And I
come back off of the thing and I jump up
and I start yelling camera, video, video, you know, pictures, pictures,
and I'm freaking out. I'm losing my mind. Everybody's looking
at it. And I look at it with the naked eye,
and it's like this big. It's fourteen miles away, right,

(01:33:16):
it comes out from behind the mountain. I got these
giant binoculars, and the binoculars it's full size. So I
go back to the binoculars. It's about five ten seconds later.
I'm in the binoculars and I just look at it. Man,
I look at it from top to bottom. I just
just get it burned into my brain. And I come
back out and I'm looking at it. I'm watching it

(01:33:38):
spin and I could see the sun reflecting off of it.
I come back to the binoculars and then my friend
next to me, Steve goes it phased out what it was?

Speaker 2 (01:33:49):
Gone goodness?

Speaker 3 (01:33:53):
Me, yeah, and so and I'm like, what do you mean?
And I thought we were gonna see it for the
next hour because it was moving so slow and it
was the blue sky and there's nothing there and we're
having the most incredible sided and it was gone, gone
right at that spot. For Kenneth Arnold, I don't know.

(01:34:15):
I can't explain. And I say this all the time,
and I know that you can appreciate this. I don't
know what I saw, Okay, don't I don't know if
it's et, I don't know if it was us. I
have no idea. I can tell you what it wasn't.
It wasn't a rocket, it wasn't a helicopter. It wasn't
a jet. It wasn't it wasn't a balloon, it any

(01:34:38):
It wasn't any of those things. It was just a spinning,
you know, just going across the sky like this giant, huge, huge.
When I say four hundred feet, I don't know from
fourteen miles away it was that big. So how big
was the object, you know, I don't know. I don't know,

(01:35:03):
but it was right there right there, and it just
throws another part. I'm going to chase the truth until
I get as close to it as I can. But
you see something like that and you tie it to
the area and everything else, And what am I left with?

Speaker 4 (01:35:22):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:35:22):
It's doing shows like this and discussing all of this
and trying to get to the bottom of it.

Speaker 4 (01:35:27):
And with.

Speaker 3 (01:35:30):
The way pop culture is moving today, you doing what
you do in the world of weird? What do we
do with the media now accepting this and politicians and
elected officials talking about this, and the Pentagon and UFO hearings,
and suddenly the ridicule and tease factors is being lifted

(01:35:52):
off of this and the subject is being discussed like
it is. What do you make of that versus the
historical version of this? It seems very strange. Are we
at a turning point?

Speaker 2 (01:36:05):
You know in a way? But just just and I
do I want to answer that very much because it's
something I'm really interested in. But I do think where
you saw that, it's a weird part of the world,
Like you mentioned, like Mountain Helens, that's where eight Canyon is.
Arnold saw his what kicked off the flying source of thing?
Right where you saw that Mount Rainier hovers over over

(01:36:27):
Moriy Island, like where the Morio Island isn't happened. I
think that's important to say quickly too, when you're on
mount when you're on Moury Island and you're looking back
across the Puget Sound where the incident happened, the Moriy
Island incident towards the comer Seattle Morie Island is at
least Mount Rainier is right in front of you. This
is a weird part of the world where all kinds

(01:36:49):
of weird things happen. Now to the question that you asked,
one of the things I found strangest in the disclosure
movement and also the most interesting is that, as we
all know, in twenty seventeen, with the New York Times
article about you know, the tic TAC videos and a

(01:37:10):
tip this you know, Pentagon sig UFO.

Speaker 3 (01:37:13):
Yeah, and then.

Speaker 2 (01:37:15):
The narratives tended to change, Like every major media outlet
started to talk about this. The US government started to
talk about this because pretty much since you know, the
late nineteen sixties, when the Condon Committee, the University of
Colorado UFO study, which had been when the Air Force
under the pressure of Congress back then had fobbed the

(01:37:36):
UFO story to the University of Colorado, and the Condon Committee,
with many many problems, essentially came out and said there's
nothing to see here. It had never really been taken
serious by the media since, I mean, it had been
like there had been shows like X Files, and when
the Roswell fiftieth anniversary came up, Larry King was out

(01:37:57):
at Rosewell doing his life from there, and there was stories,
but it hadn't been something which either the government or
the media seemed to take seriously since it had been
put to bed by the Condom Committee back in the
late nineteen sixties. But after that twenty seventeen article, things
seemed to change. And what I don't think at first

(01:38:19):
the public and the media really caught onto was that
the key figures in the disclosure movements started to suggest
that this thing wasn't extraterrestrial. Whether you're looking at the
journalists who are beating the drum the hardest, like Keene

(01:38:39):
who wrote that who co wrote that original article, like
Tucker Carlson, who has been fascinated with this for some time,
or whether you're looking at the whistleblowers themselves, whether it's
David Grush, whether it's other people, whether it's people like
Tom DeLong, the Blink one eighty two Angels and Airwaves frontman,
who then started to the Stars Academy, which was pushing

(01:39:02):
this and releasing the tic TAC videos. I think that
organization released it first, whether it was hal Putov, who
wrote a piece on ultraterrestrials and also was a board
member to the Stars Academy, person after person after person
who were the main identities in the disclosure movements, was
saying that this thing is an extraterrestrial whatever it is,

(01:39:24):
it's not et and I still don't think we've culturally
got a hold on that. But when I look at
the most important people who've been publicizing this, you're starting
to see in the last UF congressional hearing, the one
which was earlier earlier this month, there you start to
get even the congress people, I think, realizing that there's

(01:39:47):
something weird to hear, that there's something which this mightn't
be extraterrestrial, This might be something far stranger than what
we've been led what we've been led to believe by
science fiction and potentially by disinfo coming out of the
various spin agencies that have played with this for a

(01:40:08):
very long time. Quickly, I will say, I think a
lot of this technology is just ours. I think potentially
the tic TAC video, the tic TAC is just ours,
and it's testing it on you know, US Navy pilots,
because where would you test state of the art technology.
You'd start to test it on your own pilots to
see how they'd respond. Right. But I think the deeper,

(01:40:29):
weirder mysteries that you and I are primarily interested in.
I think there has been an ongoing conversation now that
the media, the mainstream media, not people like you and I,
but the mainstream media haven't covered but maybe they will shortly,
and I hope that they do. That this is far
stranger than nuts and bolts, tin cans from another solar

(01:40:53):
system or you know, another galaxy, or you know whatever. Then,
and maybe it's something weird. Maybe Shaver was closer to
the truth. Maybe Ray Palmer was even closer. Ray Palmer
was saying since then, even before John Keel and Jacques
Valet were saying things, he was saying it wasn't extraterrestrial.
In the mid nineteen sixties. He was saying, whatever this is,

(01:41:14):
it's not et. There's no proof I can see there's
an interplanetary crafts. And then of course Kiel and Valet
and other people wrote this later that this thing seems
to fit closer with other paranormal phenomena which we're all experienced.

Speaker 3 (01:41:27):
Well, what does this do? Because now we get into
uh an idea, a form that HP Lovecraft was a documentarian, right, right,
that's a Pandora's box that is a crazy thing to open,

(01:41:48):
because suddenly all of the pragmatic, non spiritual, black and white,
chemical based scientists out there right are all wrong, right,
that have been preaching to us about how they know
everything and this is the way the world works. And

(01:42:09):
suddenly all of that gets tipped over. So does anthropology,
so does archaeology. Right, everything suddenly is the opposite. We're
in Superman bizarro world. And that's that's the crazy part.
I don't know, And okay, I mean, is that where
we're headed? Is is that something?

Speaker 2 (01:42:31):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:42:31):
What I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:42:32):
Where everything well, okay, think one hundred and eighty degrees
and those are the facts, right, flip it over. That's
that's the that's the real truth. Everything that you have
based your life on is not reality, and that's that's
where we're headed. If that's the case.

Speaker 2 (01:42:52):
It's worth noting that Richard Shaw, in his introduction to
his second shave, A Mystery Thought, Records of Lemura and
Amazing Stories, said that a Merrit who was a great
influence on HP Lovecraft, had essentially got it right in
his fiction about this underground reality. And later in a

(01:43:14):
letter that Richard Shaver wrote to Vampire Magazine, which was
a big fanzine of the day, he said that Lovecraft's
essentially right. This is what's going on right, right, right.
So this is so my point. You brought up Lovecraft,
which is great, but it's fantastic that people like Shaver
or Palmer was saying the same thing back in the
nineteen forties.

Speaker 3 (01:43:33):
Now, okay, so here let me suggest this having references
to Lockheed or whoever, right, testing stuff against our own
armed forces? All right, with the tic tac that's fine.

(01:43:54):
But what do we do with historical sightings that are
before the right place? Brothers? What do we do with
that that that goes back all the way to the Bible? Right? Uh,
there's so many ancient scripts you know throughout time, woodcuts
from the fifteen hundred. What do we do with all

(01:44:15):
of that? Nuremberg?

Speaker 2 (01:44:20):
I think we I think we face a real problem
in trying to work out how to approach this. And
and there's there's there's two weird tears that I always
come back to, and one of them is what you
were saying. Saying kind of then, is that maybe the
UFO community or UFO researchers conflate various things to be

(01:44:43):
the same thing. So, for example, maybe the tic TAC
video is our own advanced technology. Maybe tonight somebody sees
Venus and mistakes it for a flying saucer. Maybe at
the back of my forty here I just see swamp gas.
But maybe the thing standing at the edge of my
bed tony, which I think is an et, is something

(01:45:05):
far older and weirder and stranger. And all of those
things have nothing to do with each other. But because
the UFO research community is interested in one thing, extraterrestrials
visiting us, they conflate all of this to be the
same thing. The flip side is the paranormal community, which

(01:45:26):
is divided into all these different groups. So people are
interested in ghosts, or over here listening to potentially the
EVP of their great aunt in the back of the
family estate. Over Here, people are chasing what they think
are you know, flesh and blood, you know, undiscovered American
apes or a relictmenids. Over Here, people are looking at the

(01:45:47):
skies thinking that they're ets. Maybe there is a paranormal
phenomenon there which isn't phenomena, which isn't all these different things,
but is the same thing. And so to a you
get lost in this kind of weird maze of you
want to bring it all together, but at the same
time you want to spit it all out in a

(01:46:08):
different parts. It's so hard to get a handle on it,
because what if you're looking at something, how do you
first discover that that's truly anomalous and not a mistaken
you know, identification or just us testing advanced technology. And
then maybe when you do have a genuine contact with
something which you want to think is extraterrestrial, maybe it's

(01:46:31):
something far old or and something far weird or and
far interconnected with all these other paraphysical experiences. So I
didn't even know that. I'm not a researcher. I'm in
a story in thank goodness, because I'm not sure how
is the research?

Speaker 3 (01:46:46):
But isn't this isn't this what I'm looking at the clock?
I feel like we could go on for hours. Isn't
this exactly what John Keel and Jacques Valet have been referencing.
Jacques vale a scientist, a researcher on one side, Jean
Keel brilliant imagination. But we're always alluding to this same thing,

(01:47:10):
that it's far stranger. We keep thinking about, you know,
metal craft with little dudes in it. Right, but it
maybe not that at all. And these ideas interdimensional and
multi worlds and parallel worlds, and that aspect of it

(01:47:30):
comes into play, and it could that could be the
ghost that people have been seeing for millennia, right, and
spirit beings and orbs and and I could go on
and not ball lightning. Right, ball lightning one of the
most uh, how do I say, one of the best

(01:47:54):
ancient myths there are? Right? Ball Lightning's talked about in science,
never really captured, has been seen? Or is that just
spirits and orbs and interdimensional light energy that other cultures
have been talking about for thousands of years? I don't know,
but maybe it's just all the same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:48:13):
Right, listen, My entry point to this was John Keel.
To be honest with you, I was somebody who was
very sympathetic to the extraterrestrial hypothesis. And then when I
discovered Keel and after kill Valay, I was like, this
is far weirder than what I thought. It was. Ironically

(01:48:34):
Raymond Palmer, who has all but been forgotten by history
other than by people like you and I. Palmer was
saying the exact same thing even before kil and Valet
was saying it. And later towards the end of his
life in his last speech, which I think was in
seventy seven, shortly before he died, he begged people to
start looking at all of this as being the same.

(01:48:56):
And he literally goes through it, you know, whether it's
flying sources into dimensional stuff, you know, the world itself.
All of this somehow comes together to be something that
we can't we can't process independently of each other. And
I think if that, I think the one great lesson.
And again this is somebody who's not an investigator in
the field, but I wish if I could have one

(01:49:18):
message to people who are researchers and investigators in the
field is if you can look at whatever your pet
project is again, whether it's s cryptozoology or spector hunting,
or you know, religious apparitions or UFOs, and maybe see
how does this connect with other things. I don't know
if we're ever going to get to the truth or
we're ever going to get to the final proof for

(01:49:40):
the reality of this, but maybe looking at it that
way will make us ask better questions.

Speaker 3 (01:49:45):
You know, here's okay, you probably know what I'm about
to ask you. I think one of the best things
for anybody that goes, well, you know what A is
too far out for me? It's fun. But they haven't
seen anything, all right, they haven't it. When somebody is

(01:50:10):
so cemented in their belief systems, you cannot talk them
out of it. You can't all the evidence you want
to present, all the documentaries, all the books you can
send them off on there, no, no, All it's going
to do is strengthen their position. No matter what the
subject is. It doesn't matter right until they see it

(01:50:34):
for themselves. Have you seen something in the sky.

Speaker 2 (01:50:42):
I haven't seen something in the sky. But to be
to be totally transparent, I have to make this real
quick because it's a long story. My entire interest in
this subject probably began when I was a young boy,
probably around five years of age. I had what would
be old a night visitation. Consistently something came to my

(01:51:04):
room many many times when I was little.

Speaker 3 (01:51:07):
This was in Australia.

Speaker 2 (01:51:09):
This was in Australia, and my shorthand for has always
been the little Man, and my slightly longest shorthand for
the entire experience has been that the little Man took
me away, and there was something that came to me.
And it didn't look like a gray extraterrestrial. It looked
far more folkloric. It looked far more stunted. It looked

(01:51:31):
far more like the Faceli which I hadn't seen then,
the painting The Nightmare, where that creature is sitting on
the woman's chest and she's kind of got her hands,
you know, roll back, and there's a heads horse. It
was something little and weird. But it came to my
room every night, or regularly. Anyway. I shouldn'tay every night,
because I've got no recollection if it was every night,
but it was more than once. It was many many times,

(01:51:53):
and it took me away, and I have no recollection
of where I went except for one recollection, and my
recollection is that the little man came and I was scared,
as I always was. And when it wasn't like I
wasn't drawn up through the roof or tell there was
no track to beam or any or he didn't throw
me over his shoulder and jump out the window. But

(01:52:14):
then the next experience was I was in this place
which was better lit than my compared to my bedroom,
and there were all these very tall beings.

Speaker 4 (01:52:24):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:52:26):
I remember the being next to me. For some reason,
I thought it was my mother, potentially, because when you're
little and you're you know, your parents' parties or at
a school excursion or at the shopping center, your parents
are tall, and you kind of you tug on their
leg to get your attention. My daughter did that when
she was always was tugging on like my jacket or
my jeans or something. And I tugged on its leg
and then the thing bent down and put its head.

(01:52:50):
I'm trying to do this fascus, and we're running out
of time. Its head was inches from mine, and it
wasn't my mother, and it wasn't anything human, and it
was terrifying and I remember the little Man far clear,
because I had multiple experiences with him, and I only
remember this once, and I don't like to try to
describe what it looked like. It wasn't a great extraterrestriom,

(01:53:11):
I'll say that, but because I think I've been tainted
by so much science fiction and horror movie, you know, imagery.
But it was terrifying. And then that's the end of
my recollection of that. The denownment to the story is
one night I knew the little Man was coming for me,
and I was really really scared. And when he came,
unlike normally where I just, I guess was submissive and

(01:53:34):
went along with him, I resisted him. I fought him,
and I didn't fight him like a boxer. It wasn't
like Rocky. I wasn't like punching it upside the head.
But I remember physically wrestling with him. And that's the
scariest part of the memory, because I remember having physical
altercations with other boys at that time, and the physical
memory is the same. And I don't want to say
I beat him, but I certainly came to some kind

(01:53:54):
of impasse and he left and he never came back,
and obviously there were more details, but that's the little
man's story. And years later, when I was between my
Bachelor of Arts degree my master's degree, I picked up
a book by an author called Edith Fiore, and she
was a writer, she was a psychologist, and she was

(01:54:14):
talking about the alien abduction experience, right, and her things
triggered my memories, and so for a while I thought,
maybe I'm an abductee. I don't think I was a
traditional alien abductee. I think it fits far tired or
in with older fairy faith traditions. I don't think I
was taken by gray extraterrestrials and experimented. I really don't.
And I don't even know if it was just my

(01:54:35):
childhood psyche trying to deal with something. But they are
very and memories a funny thing. This is decades ago now,
but it's something which has stayed with me from my
entire life, and that reading Edith Fiore's book is what
launched me on my interests, you know, post my bachelor's degree,
into the realm of flying sources and UFOs. Before I

(01:54:58):
realized I don't think I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:54:59):
An alien and what's interesting here To the best of
your relection, recollection, that this wasn't a dream state. This
was a physical experience that was happening. This wasn't your
imagination that has been repeated into an actual memory. This

(01:55:21):
was a physical being in your room. It's a physical experience.

Speaker 2 (01:55:26):
That's the scariest thing about the denowment of it that
I mentioned that the physical struggle of it is so
similar to I have a couple of memories of fighting
other boys at that age. Like the physical struggle and
the memory of it is as real as that. I mean,
I would like to say it was just my childhood
psyche going through something. It was a continuous nightmare. But

(01:55:47):
to be entirely honest, that isn't the way some of
it plays out.

Speaker 3 (01:55:51):
Wow, did you ever communicate with this being?

Speaker 4 (01:55:56):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:55:56):
I mean, I can't remember ever having a conversation. I
can rememb remember that. I can remember, Like I said,
the thing was kind of stunted, but like it was
it was. It didn't look like a child though it
was probably my size. It was more fairy faith in
gnomic kind of kind of like I guess, the kind

(01:56:19):
of like almost the little actors that you see in
in Todd Browning's Freaks or in uh wow, right, yeah,
you know, I mean they were kind of yeah, it
was like a little person or in like Wizard of
Oz but stockier, like its more solid. And I remember
it smiling, but the smile was never friendly. Wow. But

(01:56:45):
no conversations. I can't remember a single conversation wow.

Speaker 3 (01:56:48):
Wow wow wow wow. Well that that would see, there
is there's another part of it. Once that is there
then and that's the journey. The journey is always a
personal one. You have your own personal reason, you know.
So you're doing the weird festival right or whatever it is, right,

(01:57:10):
something with weird tied into it, okay, and people find
that interesting. They don't know why. You know, this personal
experience has set you on this path. But it's always
a personal reason. It's always something deeply personal because that
gives you the drive. Great, yeah, that's incredible. Where can

(01:57:33):
everybody follow I know, we've got your Facebook page up.
Where can everybody else chase you down? Well?

Speaker 2 (01:57:42):
Yeah, the man who invented flying sources on Facebook, or
you can just go to theshavemistery dot com and it
will take you to the same place, which is about
my short documentary The Shave of Mystery and my upcoming
feature documentary, The Man Who Invented Flying Sources. I'm also
on the Untold Radio network every Thursday night at nine

(01:58:03):
pm Central, and I think they can just go to
Untold RADIOAM dot com to find that it's Talking Weird
is my show. I also, as you mentioned, I run
a film festival called Midwest Weedfest. That's just Midwest Weeedfest
dot com. We're in our tenth year now. We're always
the first weekend or so of March, you know, Claire, Wisconsin.

(01:58:24):
We play paranormal documentaries and horror and science fiction and
weird offbeat stuff and all kinds of other wonderful things.
I gotta get you out there, Jimmy one day that
I would love to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:58:33):
I will also be in Wisconsin in May and Delvan
if you know where Delivan is.

Speaker 2 (01:58:41):
Just I don't I have to get along to actually
meet you.

Speaker 3 (01:58:45):
Just just come and hang out with us. It's a
it's a great festival and great conference and it's at
Delavan Lake at the resort there, great line. I'm the host.
I'm going to speak, you know, I'll speak on one
of the night, But just just come out and hang
with with us. Man. It is so much fun, Delivan.

(01:59:06):
It's just west of Milwaukee.

Speaker 2 (01:59:11):
My girlfriend and I will come. We'd love to go
to conventions. We were at Milwaukee Para Con last year,
which was a blast. I would present the shave of
mystery stuff there, so I'll come down for this. It'll
be fun.

Speaker 3 (01:59:20):
Okay, you know what I might be able to get you, man?
Maybe all right, you know what. I'm going to talk
to you off of the air. My brains, my brain
is turning, but I've got an idea.

Speaker 2 (01:59:31):
All right, I do a nice shave a mystery presentation.

Speaker 3 (01:59:35):
Dean, I'll talk to you off the air. Okay, let's
not get ahead of our skis. Thank you so much, man,
perfect night, Thank you so much, and I look forward
to our next conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:59:45):
Man, it was great. Thank you so much for having
me on Fade to Black, Jimmy. It was a real pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:59:49):
Dean, Thank you so much, Dean Bertram. Everybody go enjoy
the rest of your evening there and beautiful Wisconsin. Thank
you so much, Dean, perfect night on the show. This
does wrap my week. I do want want to let
everybody know that nothing is happening tomorrow. I am on
the air there's no news, no Christina Gomez, no Fade
to Black. Tomorrow night heading down to San Diego, so

(02:00:11):
I will see everybody there that is gonna come down
for the conference. It's gonna be a great time. I'll
see everybody in San Diego. No show on Monday. I
will be back here with fadea Black on Tuesday. So
until Tuesday, you know what I've got and that is
go Beckley Teppe. Fidea Black is produced by Hilton J. Palm,

(02:00:36):
Rene Newman and Michelle Free. Special thanks to Bill John Dex,
Jessica Dennis and Kevin Webmaster is Drew the Geek. Music
by Doug Albridge. Intro Spaceboy. Ada Black is produced by
kJ c R for the Game Changer Network. This broadcast

(02:00:58):
is owned and copy right in twenty twenty four by
Fade to Black and the Game Changer Network, Inc. It
cannot be rebroadcast, downloaded, copied, or used anywhere in the
known universe without written permission from Fade to Black or
the Game Changer Network. I'm your host, Jimmy Church, Go,
beck Lee, Tappy