FADE to BLACK host: Jimmy Church guest: John G. Kruth

Tonight, researcher John G. Kruth joins us to discuss Poltergeists... why??? Because it's Halloween Week!!!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:27):
This Hope Radio for the Masses headline of July eighth,
nineteen forty seven.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
The Yaudi Air Force has an outstart applying this turpens
found and there's now in the possession of the Yadair
with the game and really changed the game.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Change change. I occasionally think how quickly our difference is
worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat
from outside. This work this day to Black. It's your host,

(01:02):
Jimmy Church on the Game Changer Radio Network. All right, well, well, well,
good evening, fade to black. How you doing? How you doing?
Today's Wednesday, October twenty second, twenty twenty five. Let's do
this man. Yeah, I'm your host, Jimmy Church. It's Halloween,

(01:22):
it is you know, this is my Is it wrong
to say that Halloween's my favorite holiday? You know? Does it?
Does it? Does it out? Wax? Thanksgiving? Right, Christmas? Halloween?

(01:43):
But they're all stacked up. And I know that I'm
here because I go through my birthday, which is at
the beginning of October, and it just like it doesn't
stop for me personally until the New year comes in,
because it's just fantastic, right Christmas, New Year's Halloween, and

(02:06):
that's where we're at. We're in Halloween week and this
week on Fade to Black, Well tonight, we're gonna be
talking about Poltergeist. And do you know how do I
say this? Every time I do a show which is
once a week on Ghosts, the Paranormal, you know, Life

(02:27):
After dev Hauntings, Poultergeist, we do it and something happens,
Something happens in this haunted house away, Something will happen
in here, Something is going to go down. And now
you know, we're doing the show on polter Geist. Something
is going to happen, and I want it to happen.

(02:49):
That's the other thing. You know, I'm manifesting this, man,
I'm manifesting it. So we'll see what happens to now
in the show this week on Fade to Black Monday Night,
great conversation with Les Valees Abductions. Last night, Trey Hudson
was here talking about his work out at the Meadow
and the Metal Project and his new documentary The Helm
and Lens. Tonight, John Caruth is here. We're talking about

(03:12):
Poltergeist tonight Tomorrow night. Because it's Halloween, we are off air. Yeah,
I'm attending a friend's Halloween party. Yeah, costume party, dinner party.
It's going to be a lot of fun. And I've
already let man, I shouldn't have said. I should have
just done. Everybody's expecting it. I'm going as Dead Elvis. Yeah,

(03:35):
I'm gonna leave that right there. You'll see the pictures
when we're done. All right, let's move on. I've got
seven events coming up in twenty twenty six in combination
with everything that I do around here. First up as
the Conscious Life Expo February twenty through the twenty third
at the lax Hilton. Right after that the Sedona Ascension
Retreat that is March twenty through the twenty second, and Sedona, Arizona.

(03:58):
After that, the Contact Modes Expo May first through the
third in Delavan, Wisconsin. After that Contact in the Desert
May twenty eight through June first, tickets on sale this
Thanksgiving Day. After that, I go to Peru for the
Inca Celebration of the Sun with Brian Forrester that is
June twenty third through July one. After that, the Monty

(04:19):
Python Tour of Scotland over in Scotland in the UK
August first through the ninth. After that I come back
and head back to Peru and Easter Island with Brian Forrester.
All of the links for everything that I am doing
is in the description below, Okay, and we have it
on social media and all that stuff. All right, all right, Yeah,

(04:43):
let's get this kracking. I'm ready and so tonight. What
is a poltergeist? Yeah, it's pretty much what I've called
the show, which will allow us to go into any
direction that we need to. He's got a twenty first
century poltergeist study. We're going to talk about that. We're
going to talk about his investigations the science of parapsychology

(05:04):
at the Ryine Research Center. What is that We're going
to be talking about that because he is the executive
director and he's also the co founder and education director
of the Ryane Education Center. The links for those are below.
All right. He has twenty plus years of professional technology
experience of fifteen plus years as a professional researcher, and

(05:25):
all of this allows me to get inside of John's
head and find out what's going on. I would like
to welcome to the first time to fade to Black,
John Cruth. He's right there, John, Good evening.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Hi, Jimmy, Hey, it's great to see you again.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Last time I saw you, I think you were on
stage reving up the crowd at Sigames International.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
Did I do good?

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Oh man? You had everyone jumping in that place, all
kept it going the whole time.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
It's all a blur. Now, it's all a blur. Yeah,
great event. That was a great event. I enjoy what
I do. You know, here's the you know, what's the
funny thing is people, the audience and the producers of
these events, they know what they get with me. Yeah.
I don't have to impersonate somebody or you know what

(06:19):
I mean. I just just get up there doing it,
and you know, and that's what they expect. And I
just get to be me and have fun. Sometimes I
say some things that later I go, did I did
I say that? Really? But it's it's all in good fun.
And that was a great event. It was a great event.
It was great talking to you too as well and

(06:39):
meeting you.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, that was a fun place to be. And you know,
and you talk about Halloween, and you know, one of
the best things about Halloween is you get to let
your inner self just show up. So you talk about
you don't have to hide who you are, but every
once in a while you just got to let that
little bit more out. And I can see you got
a little bit of I do strong tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
When when when I put on the costume and I'll
shave the goatee and put the glasses on and my
taking care of business necklace, you know, and stuff.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
And.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
You can't help, but you know, and the next thing,
you know, I just like man, I just I feel
like a I feel like a banana peanut butter sandwich. Yeah,
this is you know, it just comes out and you're right.
It is so fun to do that on Halloween. And
the the other part about Halloween seriously handing out candy

(07:40):
and looking at the kids because I know what it
meant to all of us growing up, right, that was
a big deal. The best candy man is over on
d Court, you know whatever. It was, right, and it
was so much fun. We just looked and it's no
different with kids today. They are just as in to
it as you and I were, and we think that

(08:02):
we were the kings of it. Now. Man, they got
it down and looking at the costumes and the fun
and then look at their parents behind them and how
they are glowing because they're route with their kids. It's
it's just an extraordinary night. The other day, it was Saturday.
I have a little town next to me. I live

(08:24):
in the desert, and there's this little desert town called
quartz Hill, all right, a couple blocks away, and it's
very small, one main street that's like four blocks long,
but very very you know, it's a town. It's a
it's very cool, it's very nice. And they had all
the businesses there do a Halloween thing. So I'm driving through.

(08:49):
I'm a a Harley right rolling through town. My four blocks,
my four blocks of greatness that I get to just
cruise through town. And uh and I'm and there were
just hundreds and hundreds of kids on both sides of
the street with their families going up and down this

(09:09):
four block section, visiting all of the businesses. Man. And
I just rolled that thing down and slowed down and
enjoyed the moment. Man. I love this country. Man. I
just it was just so it was so America, you
know what I mean. All the all the all the
bullshit is put to the side, and here we just

(09:30):
have families on the street trick or treating at the
local businesses. That's rock and roll. Man, it was great.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
And I'll bet you're one of those guys who gives
out the full sized candy bars.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Oh man, I don't play. I don't play. I don't play.
I don't play. My favorite thing to do. Then we'll
get onto Poltergeist. My favorite thing to do is you
got to get like the three year old little boy,
three year old little girl that really doesn't understand what's
going on. They're getting three candy right, and they're holding

(10:01):
up and this magic happens right that stuff and you
take them and you just give them the cauldron, take
what you want, what I can and they're waiting for
their mom to say, no, right, I can do that.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
Take more?

Speaker 1 (10:22):
What what take? Okay? Right? I love oh man, I
love Halloween. I love Halloween. Let's get into this Poultergeist thing.
I I'm going to start here, and I know that
the chat is expecting me to, you know, go into

(10:42):
my haunted house stuff, and I'll try to avoid it,
but it's impossible not to. I have my house is
so messed up that I'm bored with Poultergeist. How crazy
is that? Where I just like whatever? You know it's

(11:05):
like that. But Poultergeist or poultergeist is my version of
what I think of poultergeist is even correct. What is
a Poultergeist?

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Well, you know, it sounds like you're talking about there's
things that move around or fall off the walls or
moving things that happen in your house, maybe loud noises.
Do you ever get like water appearing in weird places
this morning?

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Like this morning?

Speaker 2 (11:39):
No kidding, See, that's one of the more rare things
that you see in Poultergeist cases. But you know, we
hear about all these other things happening where people have
you know, objects moving and nobody's touching them, no one's
anywhere near them. But there's also and it's really rare,
that you might see people actually being bruised or scratched

(12:01):
or something. And this has happened right in front of
people who've been researchers, who've been there watching people while
that's happening. So this is how this is a phenomena
that we're talking about when we're talking about poultergeist. Usually
it's around a specific location, but it's also off and

(12:22):
around an individual, a specific person.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
That's in this place.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
You know, there was. It was always this idea, the
idea of poulter Geist's it's a German term. Poulter means
noise or loud or boisterous, and geist is ghost, so
it was kind of a noisy spirit. That's how the
term originally came about. But back in the nineteen fifties,
oh geez, how long goes out now, like in seventy

(12:48):
years ago, Now, there was this activity that was going on, well,
actually it was even before that. There was some activity
that was going on in Washington, near Washington, just outside
of it in Maryland, and there was this little boy
who was having all this activity going on in his house.
His parents were really freaked out because they were hearing

(13:11):
these loud noises. The kids seemed to have bruises on
him and scratches on him, and they didn't know really
what was happening. So they contacted jb. Ryan at the
Ryan Research Center because well, hey, this is where paranormal
or parapsychology was studied. Seriously. They were looking for serious
scientists to figure out what's wrong with our little boy,

(13:34):
and so they sent the jb talked to them a
bit and talked to some of the people who were there,
and it turns out there were Jesuit priests that were
there who were exploring this phenomena, thinking that maybe this
was something demonic, something that spirits were there and they
needed to be really, really careful before they made an

(13:56):
assessment that they needed to doism or something like this.
Jb Ryan heard all the phenomena they were describing and
he said, you know what, this doesn't sound like it's
something spiritual or demonic. It sounds like this little boy
is really upset, and it sounds like it might be
what we call poltergeist phenomena. The same sort of things

(14:18):
that we were talking about before that you see happening
in your house, These were happening.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
It was with this little boy as well. Well.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
That was in the late forties. It turns out that
this was the case that the film The Exorcist was
based on later, and so the Jesuit priest being involved
in going through an exorcism. Jb Ryan warned them, don't
talk about it as if it's a religious thing, because
that will feed the family's fears, and the fear is

(14:50):
what makes this occur more than anything else. And so
when you talk about you know, oh, I want these
things to happen. You are kind of manifesting these Poulter
guyst phenomena.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Okay, I'm on clarification. Okay, this is for me to learn. Okay,
are you suggesting so I'm understanding you correctly. Your research
shows that, uh, a poultergeist in today's definition would involve contact, scratches,

(15:29):
something like that. A picture falling off the wall is
not poultergeist? Am I understanding you? No? No, No, I misstated.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
Then maybe what it is is a poltergeist is the
phenomena that we're looking at.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Okay, anything, I feel better anything, Okay, Yeah. I just
want to make sure that I'm experiing al experiing poulter
geist stuff. Or for me to experience the real Poulter
guys stuff, I've got to have a demon claw across
my back. I don't need that. Okay.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
No, you don't need Jesuit priests around to clear your
house or anything like that. No, polter guy's phenomena. It
is just it's a term that originated because people thought
it was a ghost. But back in nineteen fifty eight.
A few years later, there were these There was another
case that happened in New York in a place called Seaford,
New York. And what happened was this little boy in

(16:24):
his house, well his family and his house started to
have all these weird things happen where they saw bottles
that had screwtops on them and the screwtop would come
off the bottle and it would knock over and there'd
be spilled on the ground. They had objects that seemed
to be flying off the wall. They even had the
babysitter since she saw a piece of furniture flip over

(16:46):
while she was watching the kids. Well, they didn't know
what to do. So the first thing they did is
they called the police. And what was really really great
about this case is that the police, the police officer
who came in and investigated, kept really good notes of
everything that was going on, everything that was reported, and

(17:08):
all the different tactics they took to try to figure
out what it was, so it was really well documented.
They started calling people like plumbers to see if the
noises that they were hearing were from pipes in the walls.
They called carpenters to see if it was something that
was related to the foundation of the building shifting or something.
Electricians they called the phone, come everybody. They had everyone

(17:31):
in a town around this well, because the first person
they called was the police. It got listed in a
local police bard up in New York, and the press
picked it up and they said, oh my goodness, there's
a haunted house in New York. We in our little town.
And all of a sudden it became a big phenomena.

(17:52):
Press started coming from all over the country to learn
more about this and to find out what was going
on in this house. Why were all these phenomena happening
where things were moving around, falling off walls, bottles that
just kept spilling over. Well, it was a family that
lived in his house, just mom, dad, little boy, and

(18:12):
a little girl. They contacted the Rhine as well, and
that jb Ryan sent two people up there, one named
William Brawl another named Gaither Pratt, and they went up
to investigate. As soon as they entered the building the house,
they were mobbed. There were reporters everywhere. They couldn't really

(18:34):
do any sort of clean investigation with it. So they
stayed with the family, got then and heard about the phenomena,
and then they left because they were only there. They
were only there for a day or so. After they left.
They came back two weeks later and they snuck in,
so no reporters around. It was the family in their
normal environment, and they spent a few weeks with them,

(18:55):
and they started to experience similar sort of phenomena. They
saw plates that seemed to fly off the table on
their own. They heard noises in the other room and
found furniture overturned while no one was in the room.
While as this is all going on, they're trying to
figure out where is this coming from, how is this happening,

(19:16):
And they've noticed that there was one thing that always
was always present when these events occurred, and that was
this teenage boy named Jimmy Herman.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
It was their son, and he was just a.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Young teenage boy, and anytime these events happened he was
in the house. When he was gone, it never happened.
And not only was it when he was in the house,
but he was usually it happened in his room. His
dad reported that he walked into His dad was in
the bathroom brushing his teeth. Jimmy walked in and a
shampoo bottle slid across the sink and fell over and

(19:51):
knocked the shampoo all over. So it seemed to be
all around this boy named Jimmy. As they started to
look at it in more detail, they so that Jimmy
seemed to be a little bit anxious. He's a teenager, right,
teenage boy seemed to be a little bit anxious and
jealous of his sister. And they said, well, you know,
instead of this being a ghost, because we don't know

(20:14):
that ghosts are there who are moving things around, it
always happens around this one boy. It might be a
case of psychokinesis mind matter interaction or.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
He was tying strings to shampoo bottles.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
Well, that was the first thing they thought.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
I thought that that's where you were going, that the
kid was pranking, but so the but the other yeah,
he's got something that he can't control.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, is so like suppressed anxiety or anger that caused
these events to happen. And they came up with this
concept and they called it recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis. It's RSPK
as a terminology we use, and what that means is
it's psychokinesis that is unconscious, but it happens over and

(21:07):
over again, and it happens spontaneously. No one's really controlling it.
So it's coming from this little boy's anxiety, from his
feelings in the house that he doesn't feel like he
can really express, and instead of expressing it in words,
it's coming out in terms of psychokinesis. This was their

(21:28):
concept and so this they introduced this in nineteen fifty eight,
and over the next twenty years, William Rawl, one of
the initial investigators, continued to investigate these cases and solve
similar things occurring over and over again, in many cases
always seeming to focus around one individual who seem to

(21:50):
be upset about something or have some disturbance in their life.
And then they started to see these things happening. Now
in your case, Jimmy, with what you're saying, it may
not be that you're disturbed or that you're anxious or
offset about something, but it may be that, hey, you
kind of like this, and so unconsciously you're kind of

(22:13):
helping this to happen. I agree, And you might have
a little bit of p K going on. That's possible
in your life. That's possible too. That's possible too. I
think about that a lot. I also, because I live alone,
I don't it's too easy to scare the crap out

(22:33):
of yourself.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
It's way too it way way way way and I
could tap out and lose my mind and get scared,
or I've chosen to to talk back to the ghost.
You know what what what? What? What? When I say

(22:57):
talk back not nasty. I'm just like, man, I'm not
getting out of bed to go and check you out
do your thing. I'm busy over it, and I'm saying
these things out loud. I'd rather do it that way
than jump up and get my flashlight, run around, have
freak out and crawl back into bed and why you

(23:20):
know or you know, And That's just been my attitude
with it. I know that I'm nothing special. Everybody deals
with this. When I was a kid, I'm on a
very important question about the Ryan Institute next, but I'll
say this. When I was a kid, I was sitting

(23:42):
on my grandfather's lap. I was probably four maybe five
years old, and there was like a college football game
on and my grandmother, who I could see her back,
She's in the kitchen on the other you know, like
living room, dining room, kitchen. I could see her on
the other end of the house. Her back's to us,

(24:04):
and I'm sitting there and I hear something come from
their bedroom, which is off to my left. We're watching TV,
but I hear this noise and I'm young, and I
hear it again, and I look at my grandfather like, man,

(24:25):
are you are you hearing what I'm Somebody is in
the bedroom and my grandmother says, my grandfather's name is
cal My grandmother says from the kitchen, our ghost is
back and she's drying dishes. Man, you know what I mean,

(24:47):
She didn't even turn around. I'm like ghosts looking at
my grandfather, looking at the thing. But this is just
another house in America, right. Everybody's dealing with this stuff well.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
And you know, you're you know when you're talking about
being in bed and hearing noises and this is a
good time to have cats because you can always blame
it on the cats at that point and say, ah,
I'm going back to sleep the cats that are doing it.
But when you're in an environment like that and you know,
it becomes it becomes common, like you were talking in
your grandmother's house, starts to become so common. You know,

(25:23):
we don't know that it is or isn't ghosts. We
just have other explanations that seem to make more sense. Now,
there might be a time where it could be. There
are occasions where there're investigated polder geist cases investigated, these
sort of disturbances we're talking about, and most of the
time people do not see apparitions, like, don't see anything

(25:47):
there that indicates there's a ghost there. Oftentimes people will
bring researchers, will bring mediums with them, a medium who
might be able to communicate with spirits, and they'll say,
there's nothing here, but I think that little boy over
there might be a little bit upset, right, And so
these are types of things. But there are occasions where

(26:09):
there are apparitions that are there at the same time
as you have these activities. In those cases we have
to start thinking, well, maybe it's the ghost who's using
their PK. They're psychokinesis because you know, ghosts don't have bodies,
so they can't push things around and move things. If
they're going to move things, they have to use their

(26:30):
intention or their mind. Just as if we're attributing that
to ghosts, we have to say, well, if ghosts are
living people who have passed on, well, then living people
probably can do this too. And we see this in
our labs that people are able to affect objects and
move objects. We've done a lot of research with different

(26:53):
ways to test people. In fact, there was one woman
back in the nineteen seventies.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Let me stop you there, Let me stop you there. No,
we'll come back to the woman in the nineteen seventies.
What is the Rhine Institute?

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Okay, Well, it's a Rhine Research Center. And the Rhine
Research Center has been around for ninety years now. It
started back in nineteen thirty five at Duke University.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
JB.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Rhyan was this young guy who back in the nineteen twenties,
he was interested in studying the seminary and he was
thinking about going to seminary school, but he also really
liked the sciences. Well, he was in college at the
University of Chicago and his wife was also at the

(27:41):
University of Chicago, and they were both studying biology. At
this point, he went to a lecture by a man
named Arthur Conan Doyle who wrote Sherlock Comb's Mysteries, Right,
and so he went to lecture at the University of Chicago.
But it wasn't a Bob Sherlock Combs. JB. Rhyme was

(28:01):
there and he actually heard him speaking about work he
was doing with the Society for Psychical Research in UK
looking at mediums, trying to understand are spirits real? Are
these mediums actually getting information about from spirits?

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Well?

Speaker 2 (28:19):
JB was so impressed with what he heard that there
was a scientific organization that was exploring this. He went
home to his wife and he said, I think I
finally found a way to combine my interest in spirituality
with my interest in the sciences. He started to contact
other people who were doing similar work in the States,

(28:41):
and eventually he contacted this man named William McDougall, who
was up at Harvard at the time, who happened to
be starting being a psychology department at a brand new
university in Durham called Duke University. And he said, JB
is a young guy with a PhD. And he said,

(29:02):
would you like to come and teach at the university
and be part of my psychology department and I'll let
you study mediums in our psychology department. This was no
one in the in the country was doing this at
a university level at that time. Well, JP Rich He
immediately realized in order to study these mediums scientifically, he

(29:26):
needed to find out, Hey, are they really communicating with spirits? Now?
Back at that time, right after World War One was over,
before World War two, there were a lot of people
who are.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
Interested in mediums. It it was it that was the thing. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
It was a crazy time though too, because mediums at
that time were you know, you'd go to the medium's
home and when you went to their home, they'd meet
you at the door, or someone would meet you at
the door, and they'd bring you down a long, dark
hallway and they'd bring you into a big room with
a big table, round table, and it'll be very dark,
candles around and they'd sit everyone down and everyone would

(30:07):
touch hands, and then into the room would come this
medium and the medium would have veils around them and
they're shrouded in mystery Austrian accent. Austrian accent, yes, And
so they'd sit down at the table and then they
would try to call spirits and what would happen is

(30:28):
trumpets would play, coins would drop on the table, uh,
voices would be heard from da It was. It was
essentially entertainment, right. There was a there was a way
that people had some fun on a Friday Saturday night.
The way to go out uh, and enjoy it. But
it seemed that some of them were getting information that

(30:49):
they probably shouldn't know. So when JB started to look
into this, he started wondering, well, maybe this medium isn't
actually getting this information because while they're talking to my
uncle Joe, who passed away a few years ago, who's
sitting on her shoulder, But maybe they're actually getting that
information from me mine to mind communication, telepathy, or maybe

(31:16):
back at my house, I got uncle Joe's library, you know,
with his bowling trophies, his smoking jacket, his little bottle
of gin in the bottom drawer, and somehow she's able
to see all this from a distance clairvoyance getting information
about objects or events from a distance, or maybe in
about a half hour, I'm going to tell her everything

(31:38):
there is to know about Uncle Joe, and somehow she's
able to get that information through time precognition. And so
before JB could say that she was speaking, this medium
was speaking to spirits, he had to know, can people
do telepathy, can they do clairvoyance? Claim they do precognition,
And he started he helloped these esp cards, I'm sure

(32:01):
you've seen them, Jimmy, the circle, the wavy lines the
square and they developed these cards for testing ESP and
started doing experiments and at nineteen thirty five they founded
the Duke Parapsychology Lab, the first active parapsychology lab that's
still in operation that was out of university. The Ryan

(32:23):
Research Center now is the evolution of that. We don't
use the ESP cards anymore. We found other ways to
do testing, but we are still doing research to look
into these phenomena. Those phenomen but we've gone past hey
do they happen? Are these things real? All of the
things I've mentioned to you. JB had a great deal

(32:45):
of evidence that have been published in peer review journals
that indicate that telepathy is real, clairvoyance is real, precognition
is real. In addition, he found that mind matter interaction
for PK is real as well. So we've gone past
where we're trying to prove that it's real. We're trying

(33:06):
to figure out how's it work, Why are some people
better at it than others? How come it doesn't work
all the time with everyone? And these are some of
the things that we're continuing to explore.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
The ride was JB was he was he like Walter
Bishop from Fringe well, you know JB was he was
He was a you know what I mean though, right,
he was a science you know where Walter Bishop has
a lab at Harvard University deals with everything that you

(33:38):
just listed, right, that's his that's his thing, and he's
just trying to figure out how everything works and applying
the science to it. And that's what I wasn't being
cavalier trying to crack a joke, you know, was that
his approach was to apply uh scientific methodology to these

(34:01):
things that we can't necessarily touch or feel.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
Well, that's exactly what he was doing. He was using
modern methodology methods, modern statistical methods to examine them and
publish it. He started a journal that was peer reviewed,
and you know, it's the top scientific level that we
can get at having peer reviewed publications. And there were
many publications. It spread all over the world where other

(34:26):
people started doing similar experiments to him. Now where a
lot of the TV shows kind of vary, is there
oftentimes making these crazy machines to try to you know,
like you know, if you look at Ghostbusters were putting
things on their heads or you know, back to the
future or trying to see if they're telepathy machines. Yeah,
that's not what was going on, and that's not what

(34:47):
we do now. Well not I don't speak about that
in public, but that's not what we do.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
You know.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
We're still we're still trying to look at the phenomena
and trying to say, hey, where did it come from?

Speaker 1 (34:58):
How did it happen? The my experiences that I have
and others too. Okay, but the experiences I cannot change those.
They are real things. Nobody's going to change my mind.

(35:21):
Okay about the experience. But are the experiences paranormal or
is there a scientific explanation for these things? And movement?
And when I don't have a cat.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
So when we look at it, we look at the
phenomena and we try to see if we can explain
it based on any physical phenomena that might be there,
like a cat that might be around, or a little
boy with a piece of string pulling on something. You know,
we look at that first. We also look at things
like is your house surrounded by high power lines? You know?

(36:00):
Are there other things that are in the environment that
might cause these things to happen. But once we've determined that,
we really can't see any physical means for it. We
then look and see if there's any evidence that there
might be other mechanisms what we would call sigh occurring,
and SI includes all the extrasensory perception, telepathy, clairvoyance, and

(36:23):
precognition and psychokinesis. These have all been demonstrated in the lab,
and since we've seen them in the lab, it only
makes sense to say that, hey, that might be happening
to you. That might be something that's happening in this house.
So then we can start exploring that possibility and determining
whether it's real. So I'm not going to say, oh,

(36:45):
it's you know, when we see paranormal, it's I means
so many things to so many different people. You know,
I'm talking about parapsychology, where we're talking about very defined
terms that we're using for the science here, and when
we're talking we're looking at these very specific phenomena. We're
trying to see if we see evidence of it, trying

(37:07):
to understand where it came from.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Now, for you, have you had your own poltergeist experiences?
I mean, what gets you into this very very strange
subject that I enjoy so much.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
A very good question, you know, Well, you know, I've
always been interested in in what I now call parapsychology
and these sort of phenomena. I kind of grew up
in an environment where it was very well accepted that
manifested visualizations, hypnosis, healing. You know, this is all part

(37:45):
of my family growing up. My mom did healing. Her
mom did healing, and when I was learning it when
I was.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
A kid, it was just natural.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
It wasn't weird until I started talking to my friends
and then they realized. I realized, oh, not everyone does
it that ho. So this is where I started to
realize this is something different, and I was scaring some
people away. So I decided, you know, I really need
to find a way to describe this to him and
explain it to him. My dad was an engineer, and

(38:14):
he was looking for practical ways to solve problems, and
I thought, well, maybe if I tried to explain this
from a scientific perspective. This is when I was our
early teenager. I'm thinking about this because you know, like
I said, I was scaring my friends and so I
always wanted to learn how to do this scientifically. And
it wasn't until I was twenty that I learned that

(38:36):
there were places already doing that that were studying parapsychology.
That's when I started to learn more about the research
that was going on at the Ryan Research Center and
other things that were going on at AAR where the
Edgar Casey Institute is. And later I learned about ions
the Institute of Noetic Sciences where Edgar Mitchell had come

(38:59):
back from space. With this, with this feeling that we're
all connected, there is a connection between all of us
that we really need to explore. Well, that was what
I was interested in, these connections between all of us
so many years. So now fast forward. Life happens, right,
I have many different jobs, do many different things, and

(39:21):
at one point I say, Okay, it's time for me
to really do this science related to the phenomena that
I know about. So I went and I went to
the Rhine. I happened to live in Durham. I went
to the Rhine and started to talk to them, and
I went back to school and learned research and analysis
methods and started to study to learn more about these connections. Well,

(39:43):
one day I'm sitting in the office and this one
of the researchers who's in the area said, Hey, we
have this woman who she's had near death experiences, and
we're going to bring her down because she said she
can affect these wheels inside of jars. I sat at
the table with eleven researchers in the Rhyan library and

(40:06):
watched this woman sit at the end of the table
and she put her hand next to a jar that
had an aluminum foil wheel inside of it, and the
wheel started spinning and I was just freaked out. I
was like, I've never seen anything like this before, like
right in front of me. So I pulled out my
cheap little camera on my phone at that time, and

(40:28):
I ran over and I was like Vidan and I said, hey,
would you do me if fever? Can you stop it?
And she took her hand away and stopped. I said
start it up again, and she did so I was like,
well stop it again. Can you make it move in
the other direction. She puts her finger on the outside
of the jar and starts moving it like this, and
the wheel starts moving in the other direction. I'm checking

(40:50):
her fingernails, I'm checking under the table. This was in
our library and it was still happening. It was I mean,
when you see something like that in real life. It
really changes our whole perspective on things.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Remember you remember at the Side Games, we had four
contestants up there on stage doing it at the same time,
and I not only was I was the host, right,
so I'm walking behind each we saw me. But my
point being, I was seeing this for the first time,

(41:25):
and in two of the cases, by the way, I
was just with the winner of them. The one at
the very end, well, I just ran into him in
San Diego. He just steps on the elevator. Hey, Jimmy.
I was like, dude, what he whoa? Whoa? Anyway, that

(41:47):
was his first time. You know, two of the four
up there had never done it before, and I found
that interesting. So I did it too as well. I
did it a few times over the week end. Very interesting.
I'm not saying that I have the abilities, but I
think we all have it to some degree. We just don't,

(42:10):
you know, work out in the gym with it, and
you know what I mean, perfected.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Well, it's like any We consider it like any other
skill or ability. If you practice it, you get better
at it. Some people have a natural I often refer
to it similar to the way I talked about sports. Right,
anybody can sway a golf club and hit a ball.
But some people have a very natural and easy swing,
and they're going to do it much more easily than

(42:38):
someone like me. Right, But then you've got some people
who aren't so don't have a natural ability, but they
work really hard at it, and they're going to get
better and better until they could get to the point
where they could do pretty well. But the ones who
have the natural ability, who practice all the time, they
become the pros.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
They become the gym. You remember, one of the things
that I am enjoyed about that whole experience was, Yeah,
the contestants me on stage with the microphone. That doesn't suck.
That's a lot of fun all that. No, man, it
was the audience, Holy crap. So we had so everybody understands,

(43:17):
four contestants, four cameras pointing down, so we had big
screens up in this large ballroom where everybody could see
what was going on in real time, and back to
the audience. They're concentrating. Man, they were just right and man, right,

(43:42):
right right, and I'm listening, and I'm listening to the audience,
you know, yell, because they're yelling for contestant number two,
he's got our contestant number one or and I'm watching
what the audience seeing that in real time. This isn't
a document ery, right, this isn't something on TV. This

(44:03):
is live. It's a contest going on. And wow, did
it get loud in there? Didn't it? Whoa?

Speaker 2 (44:12):
It was a game show environment. It was great, but
it was not. It was not when the game show
where it was kind of staged in any way. It
was very spontaneous, very the reactions were real.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
It was it was the audience. I I can only
imagine what I would be feeling if I was sitting
in the audience watching something like that. Oh wow, you
know it was it was. It was really cool to
hear them cheering everybody on. And if you remember, I
went up and I'm interested in your interactions with people

(44:46):
that you do research with, because I would ask them,
you know, go up, hey, they're sweating, man. I mean
they just finished, you know, doing this thing. They got
a thousand people yelling, you know in a room. Did
the audience put oh yeah, man. I was listening to
him cheer and I felt their vibration and they would

(45:08):
have to do you get the same kind of responses
with people that you're working with.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Well, you know, first of all, when you say they
were sweating, it wasn't that they were sweating because they
were concentrating so hard and working so No, it was
that they were in front of a big audience, probably
for one of the first times in their life ever,
and so they were nervous about what was going on,
and yet they performed in that environment. That's something that
we would have never you know, as a researcher, we

(45:37):
always try to make people very comfortable, make them happy
about what's going on.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
We don't put.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
Them in situations where they're going to have to perform
in front of four hundred people and a big auditorium,
you know, so we don't usually see that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Remember when I would go, I did do that though.
Are you nervous, right, No, sit down and relaxed. It's
just you and I on stage. But yeah, because there
it's a it's a it's a contest, it's a game,
it's a game show, live audience. Loud fat dude screaming
into a microphone. Right, No, I'm being very serious, and

(46:15):
and Mark set go right. But they did great, man,
they did great.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
That was and you know, you know, the most amazing
thing I saw as a researcher, The most amazing thing
I saw one of the ones that were spinning really quick,
spinning a wheel really quick inside of a container. But
the ones that were able to stop it and make
it go the other direction, well.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
They had to follow it. Okay, okay, I want to
be clear to everybody understand. This wasn't willy nilly. They
had instructions that were in front of them. It would
pop up random, stop it, reverse direction, stop it, reverse direction,
stay faster, stop there, and that that's what they had

(46:59):
to do. And when you see somebody that thing's whizzing
and then it says stop, they got to stop that thing,
you know. And everybody had their own technique too, right,
everybody had their own way of focusing. But then when
that thing says stop and that it's whizzing and they
got to stop it, and it stops and then reverses direction.

(47:23):
The audience is watching that, you know, and wow, whoa yelling?
They thought they were seeing fog hat open up for
Peter Frampton in nineteen seventy seven or something at Cobo
Hall in Detroit. It was crazy, man, it was a
lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
Well, you know, it's control that demonstrates control. Yeah, more
than just you know, getting a really big reaction. It
demonstrates control. They are able to consciously make a decision
on what they wanted to see. And that's what I
was seeing with this one woman who was in our
library at the Rhine. And it's, like I said, it's
the first time I saw it, and so that I

(48:01):
had never been interested in PK. I was interested in
the connections between people, not so much affecting the world
with your mind. But then a few weeks later I
had another guy come into my lab and he was
a completely different attitude, completely different perspective, and he was
affecting electronic equipment like random number generators. He was creating

(48:25):
a static field that seemed to be moving things back
and forth without touching them. This was two people doing
mind matter interactions that that I saw within a month.
It's rare to even see one person do that in
a controlled situation in a lab. So when I saw
two of them within a month, I just had this feeling.

(48:45):
You know this, I would be doing a disservice to
the field. If I don't study this, I need to
look into this and understand why these people were having
these experiences, what is it about them? And so that's
what I studied.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Are you now, are you suggesting which I'm okay with?
Are you suggesting that I am creating this kind of
like what was the movie Forbidden Planet?

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Right?

Speaker 1 (49:10):
Would they created the monster through their id? Right?

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Well, whether it's you, you know, when you're talking about creating
a monster, that's when we talk about a tulpa. It's
like a tulpa is like a double that you're making
of yourself, or like a you know, like a gollum,
something that you're making independent of yourself that starts to
get its own attitude. But what I'm suggesting is not
that you're creating another Jimmy God forbid, but actually that

(49:37):
actually that what you're doing is your own feelings are
creating this PK effect, Maybe because you want to, maybe
because you really want to see some of these things happen,
Maybe because they fascinate you, Maybe because your own ability
to express.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
This way is really exciting. Okay, let me staying on Poulter, guys,
I'm going to get to the nineteen seventies. Lady. H
ok yeah, we blew right past that. This is when
I first moved into this house. Day one day two
day one day two Day one was with my daughter.

(50:16):
Day two. Houses empty. It's a big house. Okay, so
all the rooms were empty. It's five bedrooms all empty. Okay,
follow me. Houses empty. You can hear the echo. But

(50:37):
the van is here with boxes, and those get unloaded
into the garage. Okay. I grab in, I grab a box,
and I go upstairs into my master walk in closet
that has shoe racks in it. All right, we were
talking about that earlier. And so I'm filling up the

(51:01):
shoe racks with shoes, and I'm proud of the way
I display shoes. That's another stut for another show. But
I'm laying out, so I get Row one done, all right,
I'm going downstairs. I'm getting boxes, and I come back

(51:21):
upstairs and you know, and I lay out you know,
Row two, nice and neat, and I step back and
I look at it, and I went, okay, all right,
looks good. I go downstairs, get a cup of coffee,
grab another box of shoes. It's about an hour later.
I'm doing other stuff, you know, I'm moving in and
but I go back up another box of shoes, and

(51:44):
I go into the walking closet and on the floor
in front of me, it's a pair of shoes stacked
up on top of each other.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
And I went, what.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Did I forget to put? I see where they came from.
I see the empty spot on the shelf. Didn't I
look at them and say, job, well done? Right, pat
myself on the back. Didn't I do that? Maybe? I okay?
So I put the shoes on the shelf and I
do row three right, okay, And I get that back

(52:22):
and I stepped back, going okay, cool, all right, Back
downstairs for another box, cup of coffee. Come back up
forty five minutes hour later, and I walk into the
walking closet. Another pair of shoes sitting on the floor
crossed like three feet from the and I screamed, and

(52:47):
I backed up out of the cly dropped the thing,
and I went crap. And I'm standing in the bathroom
and I leaned against the sink and I'm serious. I'm like, okay,
all right, it's all good. And I'm talking to the
ghost at that point, you know, And and I screamed

(53:10):
and I freaked out, and this went on the shoe
thing for months, months, different pairs, different things, sometimes two pairs.
It's out, I don't you know. And it was maybe, uh,
a month later. It's hard to it was five years ago,

(53:32):
but it was like a month later. I'm lying in
bed and with my iPad. Houses shut down. I just
finished the show, right, I'm in bed, got my iPad,
my reading glasses right and uh man bom boom, And

(53:53):
I sat up, put the iPad down, and I'm like, look,
I'm not coming in to the closet. You can put
all the shoes on the floor that you want. I'm
in bed with my blankie and I'm not getting up.
I said it out loud. Now I get up in
the morning and I've got two three pairs of shoes

(54:13):
on the floor. You know. But I've become nonchalant with
it now. So when you say, is it me doing it?
It started from the moment I moved into the house.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
Well, you know, really really cool case, really really interesting things.
Because these are objects of focus for you. You have
a great deal of invested not you know, your personality,
You have a lot invested in these shoes. You give
them a lot of attention, and so this is something

(54:50):
that would could be a focus object for you. At
the same time, you wouldn't want to mess with them.
You don't want to pull them off the shelves. And
this is where the first thing we would look at
as researchers is we would look at your closet and
look at the carpentry that's done there, look at the
angles of how things and see if this could just fall.

(55:11):
It doesn't sound like these are just falling.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Oh no, no, no no. I've had so many people
come in. You know, I've told the story enough and
I'll bring people over to the house and they want
to see the shoes, right, They want to They want
to go, So I okay, man, let's go. And that's
the first thing they do. They go up and they
try to move the shoes and I'm like, oh whoa,
oh okay, now these aren't falling. But yeah, yeah, I've

(55:36):
put a lot of So I made a deal. Okay,
let me ask you this. So I made a deal
with the ghost. Okay, again, this was a verbal thing
I said out loud. I came in. There's another pair
of shoes on the floor. I said, okay, all right,
do you want me to wear? Are you picking these out?
For me, is this what you want me to wear today?

(55:57):
I will wear the shoes that you want me to wear.
So I was doing that John every day. I'm like, Okay,
what shoes are in here today? Oh? Wear these and go?
And I did. I did that for a long time.
It stopped, though, it's it stopped. I haven't had it
happen like legit happened for probably a year. Well but

(56:22):
you know every day though for a year for sure.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
If you're paying attention to it, and you kind of
you know, you made a logical assumption, well, maybe these
are the shoes I'm supposed to wear a lot of
people will get frightened by it and just be oh, no, no, no,
the shoes are scary. I don't want to be near him.
But you said, no, okay, maybe there's the ones I'm
supposed to wear. You're making peace with it. You're you're

(56:48):
taking it to the next step and saying, hey, there's
something going on here and I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm
gonna vibe with it.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
Is that your advice? Is that the advice you would
give to anybody, because that sounds like good.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Well, well, you know, anytime if it were something that
was coming from you. And you know, honestly, Jimmy, anything
in your life, if there's something going on in your
life that you're not really understanding, if you can vibe
with it and get comfortable with it, you're going to
be a happier person. So that is advice I would
give people in many different situations, unless it's destructive or

(57:24):
disruptive to the environment somewhere, if it's something that's bothering,
bothering you or bothering other people, then you know, we
want to try to find a way to see if
the phenomena can be calmed down and stop. And this
is kind of what we started to do whenever we
looked at some of the more recent cases that I've
been working with, and they came from that case that

(57:46):
happened back in the nineteen seventies as well, so we
can get into that. It's a little bit of a
longer case.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Yeah, we're up, begins to break. But this in radio
is called a tease. So let's okay, we'll tease and
then we'll come back from the break. What was the case?

Speaker 2 (58:07):
So there was so there was a woman in Ohio,
a young girl in Ohio, and her name was at
that time was Tina Rash. She was living in a
house with foster parents and the parents were adopting lots
of children coming in and they started noticing unusual phenomena

(58:29):
that seemed to focus around this girl, Tina Rash.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
That is a perfect set. That is a perfect setup.
I'm already scared. I'm already scared. I'm already scared. Our
guest tonight, John Caruth, we're talking Poultergeist because it is Halloween. John,
you stay right there. I am your host, Jimmy Church.
This is Fate to Black. Stayed with us. We'll be
right back after this short break. Subscribe to our YouTube

(59:23):
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(01:01:09):
Pichu with Brian Forrester and Hidden INCA tours. Amazing tour
so far, Brian, but we're here to announce what we're
gonna do next year in twenty twenty six. What's going on?

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Okay, November twenty twenty six, we're going to have our
major tour of Peru and Bolivia, either a pre or
post tour of Parakas and Nasca on the coast, and
then after that six days in.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Easter Island bucket list Easter Island. Come join Brian and
Iroan his amazing team here at Hidden Koturs four, Peru,
Bolivia and Easter Island signing out say goodbye Brian, Bye gang. Yeah.

(01:01:54):
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(01:02:44):
welcome back Fade to Black. I am your host, Jimmy Church. Tonight,
we've got John Caruth with us from the Rhine Research
Center and they've also the Rhine Education Center. The links
for everything are below. We're talking poltergeist tonight. It's Halloween.

(01:03:06):
Let's have some fun with this before we get back
to the woman from the seventies. I want to share
this with you and the audience. This is kind of
the stuff that I put up with around here a
couple of years ago. I've got a lot of motorcycle helmets,
and I get this Harley Davidson keychain that's got this

(01:03:31):
on it and it's a thick rubber Harley Davidson logo. Okay,
all right, you can see it's thick and it's pretty
good size, right, And I decide that I'm going to
glue this to the front of one of my helmets.
That was my plan. So I cut the little rings
off of you know, the for the keychain. I cut

(01:03:51):
that off, and I put this on my island in
my kitchen. Come over to my house. You will see
that the house is spot clean anytime of the day.
I don't care. Do a surprise visit. My stuff's right,
it's clean. So sitting this on the island, it stands
out okay, all right, okay. So for about a week,

(01:04:16):
I'm coming down every morning to make my coffee. I'll
walk into the kitchen. This is sitting on the island,
and I remind myself, oh, today's the day I put
that on my helmet. Today's the day. Right after a week,
and so I come down in the kitchen one day
to make my coffee and I walk in and it's

(01:04:37):
gone okay, and I went, huh, and look, there's no
place for it to go. Right, I'm like looking like
where did it go? And it's not there, and so
I thought that I moved it into the garage and

(01:04:59):
you know, and I spaced it out. I'm getting old.
I forgot about it, and I go into the garage,
I make my coffee, go into the ground, look for it.
It's not there. It's not on my work bench. I'm like, man, huh,
keech it now, it's bothering me. Okay. A couple of
weeks go by, I order stuff off of Amazon. I

(01:05:21):
end up adding this stuff to my helmets, right. I
get all of that done, and I kind of forgot
about it. A couple of weeks I go into the
kitchen to make my coffee and it's on the island,
sitting there, and I start, man, I don't need this.
I don't need that. I don't need this in my life.

(01:05:45):
What is going on? And that was two years ago.
It's still sitting on my bench in the garage. Just
reminded me and I went and got Now, is that poltergeist?
You know? Is that me moving stuff around? Is that's
some Jedi vulcan mind meld thing that I'm doing? But

(01:06:05):
how do you explain that away?

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
I'm not sure we can explain it away. But it's
a different type of phenomena, though it's not what we
call polter guyst We would actually call this an appport.
It's where objects seem to disappear and then reappear, either
in another location or at another time, in a different
place or in the same place. You know, you were

(01:06:30):
talking about when you first got into the house and
your shoes and what was going on. It reminded me
when I first moved into this house, I was moving
in from another place, and most of my furniture was
still at my other place. My house here, I have
nine rooms. I had seven pieces of furniture in the house,

(01:06:51):
and one of them was this was this barstool that
I would sit on when I was playing guitar, and
so I had that up in a living room and
I'm just kind of relaxing. I didn't even have a
TV in the house. I'm just sitting up in the
living room. I'm relaxing, you know, having a little drink.
And I get up, and you know, I get up
and walk away and come back a few minutes later,

(01:07:13):
and I'm like, where's my where's my chair? Because it's
one of the chairs, That's what it was. One of
the only seats I had in the house, and I
was like, I couldn't find it. I'm looking around the
living room like what, I'm thinking, what, man, did I
just become blind to this? Did it fade into the
carpet or background or something so I couldn't find it.
So I went back and I was like, well, maybe

(01:07:34):
I took it with me. And when I went in
the other room, no, nothing there. There are nine rooms
in the house, seven pieces of furniture. I walked through
its entire house. I spent a half hour searching for
this bar stole and it was nowhere to be found.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
Okay, what's the end of the story. What happened? About
half hour later? I did what you did.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
I started speaking to the wall falls and I said, okay,
that's a I give up. I don't know where it is.
I'm going to sit on the floor and play play
my guitar. So I sat and played my guitar for
a while. Later on, I went in the kitchen to
get a drink. Right in the middle of my kitchen
floor is that barcel so?

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
Did you place it there? In space?

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
It? I can't imagine. I didn't even go into that world.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
That's what a skeptic is going to tell you right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Well, it could have been. You know, I did have
a couple of beers that night. People could say that
I got lot, but you know I didn't have that
many beers. I was just sitting down the play and
so it just I have no explanation for it. Did
that come from me? Did it come from the house?
I have no idea, but it's the idea of an

(01:08:46):
object disappearing and reappearing later. We hear about these all
the time. We also hear about people who kind of
materialize objects out of the air. There have been uh
what was his name? Well, there have been different people
who special Indian type of mystics who were able to

(01:09:10):
materialize rings out of the air and give them to people.
And I mean, you can talk about sleight of hand,
but there were times where what they would materialize. There
was one story about a man who materialized the ring
gave it to this young man who was in the
circle with him. He said, where did you find this?
I lost this when I was in the ocean ten

(01:09:31):
years ago, right right, And it was the same ring
with the same inscriptions.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
Could it be? Could it be? And I'm sure Ryan
has looked into this and and I know ion test
too as well. Is it something as simple as maybe
two dimensions two worlds are overlapping for just a second,
where in that other world that ring was in a

(01:09:59):
different spot, and somebody is able to grab onto that
ring as you know what I mean, as the world's collide,
he grabs the ring at that moment. In our world,
he lost it ten years ago scuba diving in Key West.
In this other alternative version, it's you know what I mean?
Is it something like that, just like my shoes or

(01:10:22):
anything else like this? Is it just two dimensions overlapping? Briefly, Well, when.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
We're talking about that where you're talking about like the
multi world theory, that there are many dimensions, everything happens
in it and off at different times, and that somehow
these worlds might cross at different points, like string theory
when the strings kind of touch each other, and then
potentially someone could jump from one dimension to another or back.

(01:10:51):
And this is an really interesting theory. We don't really
have any evidence to support the fact that they actually exist.
So when we're looking at things from a scientific perspective,
we say, well, that's a good story, but let's look
for something that's and when we're looking at it from
from the perspective, When I look at what happened to me,

(01:11:12):
I start wondering, and what happened with you? With a
little Harley logo, I wonder if there's some sort of
time slip going on where there's something where you know,
something moved through time, but you didn't move with it,
and it was in a different location. That's why it
reappeared in the same place. In my case, it ended
up in a different location, but it wasn't in the

(01:11:35):
house for you know, forty five minutes or an hour,
and then all of a sudden it was back. These
things are This is why we continue to start I
know that it happened too fascinating.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
I know that it happened to you, just like you've
just described it. You know, when I share these experiences
with people, it's I know what I sound like, but
I'm not the only one this happens. I think that
it happens in every house on the planet, whether you

(01:12:07):
want to admit to it or not. I'm talking about
every house on the planet. Whether you want to admit
to it or talk about it or whatever. That doesn't
mean that the phenomena isn't real and it doesn't occur.
You know, a person of science will try to explain
it away, but they have the same experiences that we

(01:12:27):
do well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
And this is you know, being a researcher, following science
and following scientific method.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
I try to make these.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
Things go away. We do things in a lab. We
try to make them go away. We do everything possible
to make them go away. And when they still happen,
we say, okay, we have to follow the evidence. The
evidence says it's happening, So how is it working? And
that's where we are now with the rhine and in

(01:12:56):
the field of parapsychology. Try to figure out why do
people have the experiences, why does some people have more
than others, and can we figure out how it's happening.

Speaker 1 (01:13:06):
Now, back to the lady from the seventies. Okay, so
what happened?

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
All right? So I'm gonna make this kind of quick
because Tina rash was, as I said, she was a
young girl who was living in the house with foster parents,
and her parents were bringing in other foster children who
were getting adopted all the time. Tina had stayed there
long enough time she was older she wasn't getting adopted,

(01:13:33):
and she saw all these other children coming in and
she was kind of jealous. She was upset, she was
anxious about it. Well, they started seeing all sorts of
activity occurring in the house, where a blanket would fly
across the room, where telephones would seem to move, seems
like objects would fly off the wall and fall off

(01:13:53):
and hit her or fall off near one of our
family members when they were watching them. It seemed like this.
This happened so long that I told you about this
guy named William Rawle who came up with this idea
that there was a person, a poltergeist agent, a living
person who was responsible for these things happening. Well, he
went to meet the family to learn a little bit

(01:14:16):
more about it, and he investigated this case. And actually
while they were there, they saw some of these phenomena occur.
But what he was more interested in than anything else
was taking care of this young girl, making sure that
she was feeling more comfortable. And so he tried to
help her to learn more about what was going on

(01:14:37):
and let her know, hey, this isn't some crazy ghosty
stuff going on. We think this might be coming from you.
When you get upset, and so they brought her actually
to Durham, to the Rhine and had her hanging out
with some other people who were her age in the
area here, and they started to do some tests to

(01:14:58):
see if hey, can we test her brain waves and
see if there's anything weird in her brain waves that's
different than other people. Can we start to give her
psychological tests and examine her using standard psychology. And what
they found is that when she had any sort of
anxiety about something, spoons would follow the table around her.

(01:15:22):
I'm one of my friends. He had her at his house.
They were having a picnic outside and the silverware started
flying away whenever they start. Some of the kids started
to play and she wasn't allowed until she finished. Things
started moving around. There was one of the lab assistants
that she was really it was a young man who

(01:15:44):
she thought was really cute, and while she was in
the lab being tested and he was walking down the hallway,
objects started moving towards him and towards her. In these situations,
it seemed that what her intentions were seemed to affect
the objects and where they would where they would move.
At one point, she was in a lab room and

(01:16:09):
the researcher hurt a loud bang and on the floor
found this large pipe wrench.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
He's like, where did this come from?

Speaker 2 (01:16:17):
Well, it turns out that there was a toolbox that
was down the hall in another room with the closed door.
Inside the toolbox was this pipe wrench previously, and it
hit the door so hard in the lab that it
left a mark and was on the floor. These are
the sorts of things we hear, and this was a
phenomenal case.

Speaker 1 (01:16:38):
Which she went on for it was she magnetic?

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
They while, so they tested to see if there was
magnetism that might be causing it, or to see if
there might be some sort of static fields. They never
found anything, although they did find some things in her
brain waves and the activity in her one of her
parietal lobes that were causing some of this or that
seemed to be related to this activity, but they weren't

(01:17:04):
sure because other people have the same anomaly and they
don't cause.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
Objects to move around. But this went on for years. Jimmy, Yeah, yeah, no,
I'm fascinated with it. I mean, suggesting that she was magnetic,
that's crazier than if it was demons, right, I mean,
you know, taking too many iron supplements and there was
too much iron in the blood, and she's you know

(01:17:29):
what I mean, she picked.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Up Ye, she's waving saltwater too long or something, right.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
Right, Suddenly you're magnetic. But wow, wow, that's fascinating. That's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
So yeah, so she eventually, the guy William Warrell stayed
in touch with her for a number of years. She
eventually moved back home and it continued happening, but she
at least managed to get a little more comfortable with
it and it didn't happen quite as often. So he
was looking for ways to help her with the situation.
And I mean, the story goes on and it actually

(01:18:01):
ends in a bit of a tragedy. She's now in prison,
actually down in Georgia from situations because she ended up
moving to Georgia where bell Row was and there was
some bad situations went on with her. But that's a
whole nother story.

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
I remember this case, y, yes, yes, yes, rash is
her name, yeah yeah, oh.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
Yeah, right now her name is? Her name is really
Christina Boyer.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
I remember watching the films of her now of this
stuff occurring. Oh, I remember this whole thing, that's right,
she's in prison. Yeah wow wow.

Speaker 2 (01:18:37):
But it was so apparent it was coming from her,
because wherever she was, this phenomena followed her. And so
this is one of the things that really started people
looking at ways to try to help these people, because
that's what it seems to be about more than anything else.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
What let's talk about the twenty first century study that
you guys did back in twenty fourteen. What was the
basis of the study and what did you guys find out?

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
So you know, I told you I wasn't really interested
in PK, but I had this experience with these people,
so I started learning more about it. Well, I was
at the rhyin and one day we get a phone
call from a medical doctor who's in another part of
North Carolina and he says, I have a patient who
they brought his mom and his grandmother brought him into

(01:19:28):
me and said there's something wrong with them. Can you
check them out? And he said, well, what's wrong with them?
And he said, well, anytime he walks by the telephone,
the telephone makes noise. When he's around computers, the computers
act up, they break, and whenever there's any sort of
electrical appliance around he seems to have he seems to

(01:19:50):
break them or have a problem with them, and so
they brought him to the doctor, not knowing what to do.
So the doctor checks them out. And the doctor's like, well,
you know, he'd examined. He said, he's a normal, you know,
eleven year old boy. There's nothing really strange going on here.
I don't have anything to do. But he knew about
the rhyme, so he contacted us. And my first thought is,

(01:20:13):
you know, I'm hearing all these weird stories about telephones
and computers, and I'm thinking, you know, it sounds like
polar guyst phenomena, but it's slightly different. You know, back
in the nineteen seventies and the eighties and people were
having polar guys and objects are flying around or having
having it. For centuries, this has been reports like this,

(01:20:33):
But now in the twenty first century, we all carry
these things around with us. We have electronics everywhere around us.
If we're going to have this unconscious PK activity occur,
we might not be affecting large objects but also affecting electronics.
This is something we call micropk. MACROPK is large objects.

(01:20:57):
You can see MICROPK is affecting electronics. So my first
thought is these people want to get on TV. You know,
back around twenty twelve, twenty thirty, this was a very
popular thing. People were reporting there was ghost timing all
over the TV sets, lots of shows, and I was skeptical.

(01:21:20):
So I made arrangements to meet the family at the
doctor's office. Went to the doctor's office. I met this mom,
the little boy, and his grandma and the doctor together,
and we just had a conversation and it was very
clear to me, very quickly that they were describing these phenomena.

(01:21:41):
They wanted it to stop. They were worried about it.
The little boy was going to school and all the
tests are computerized these days. His teacher was thinking that
he was breaking the computers on purpose so he didn't
have to take the tests and then not the other kids.
So they always made him go last. The other kids
could all take the test first, and then he could.

(01:22:02):
He'd have to take it last. They thought he was
breaking other electronics. One time, he actually got mad in
class and all of a sudden, the phones of all
the students in the room started to beep at the
same time. The teacher thought he had he had some
he was some wizard with the computers, and they were
worried because the teachers were giving him. We're say, they're

(01:22:24):
going to give him bad grades. But what sealed it
for me was when a little boy sitting next to
his grandma and these are his words, he said, I'm
afraid my electromagnetic field is going to hurt my grandma.
That touched me. And I was like this, they're not
They're not trying to get on TV. They're not trying.
They really are sincerely trying to find a way to

(01:22:47):
help this little boy. And so I said, Okay, let
me arrange for a visit to see if we can
figure out what's going on. So I've got in touch
with one of my researcher friends who has done poltergeist
investigations before. He's an electric he was an electrical engineer
at Duke University. He had all kind of equipment to
measure magnetic fields and static And we took a trip

(01:23:09):
out to north as part of North Carolina, in rural
North Carolina where they lived. They said, most of this
stuff happened in their home, so we should pull up
in the house. And it's a small house out in
the country, first thing I'm looking at is are there
electrical lines overhead? Are there anything in the environment that
might be weird it's weird crystal formations or you know,

(01:23:30):
anything that might be strange. I didn't see anything in
the environment that looked like it might be causing electrical disruptions.
We walk in the house, and the house obviously they
were excited to have somebody come and visit, so they'd
cleaned up. Everything was really neat, except there was on
the kitchen counter. There was this big pot that seemed

(01:23:51):
way out of place, and it was turned upside down
right on top of the kitchen counter. And I was like, well,
that's kind of weird. And so we sat down and
we started to talk, and they started telling me about
things that were going on. And they were saying, oh,
he's had some problems with telephones, and he has some
problems with the smoke alarm. He has problems with the computer.

(01:24:11):
When the grandma was working in the basement and on
her computer, he walked in the room and a computer broke,
and she spent a lot of money to get it fixed.
The television set, whenever he used the remote control, it
would just flip channels like crazy. But the weirdest thing
was what was happening with the phone. This is an
eleven year old boy, right, and he had a phone.

(01:24:34):
The phone started texting the neighbor and they had a
plan at that time where they would be charged for
every text. It was texting two thousand times in an hour.
You cannot physically make it do that, and there's no
way you could.

Speaker 1 (01:24:50):
Can't you wrap the kid up in tinfoil?

Speaker 2 (01:24:52):
And well, okay, this would have been a potential solution
that kind of this back to this big pot that's
on the on the kitchen cometer.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
I set you up for that, John. So I'm like, well,
why is this pot there?

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):
I asked them, and they said, oh, well, the phone's
underneath there, because if we don't have the phone underneath there,
every time he walks by at the phone makes noise.
And so I was like, okay, this is interesting. So
they start telling me that anytime his mom called him
on the phone, it would make look they would get
all kinds of interference and they couldn't have a conversation.

(01:25:31):
He couldn't have a cell phone because it kept calling
the neighbors. The phone did so many weird things. They
couldn't fix it anymore. So this is an eleven year
old boy who can't have a cell phone.

Speaker 1 (01:25:41):
That's a big deal. That's a big deal.

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
So his mom's telling me about when she called him
that they get this interference, and I said, well, what
phone do you use when.

Speaker 1 (01:25:51):
You call him?

Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
She goes, oh, my cell and she picks it up.
She goes my cell right here, And I said what
phone do you call him on? And she said, oh,
that one that's underneath the pot over So I'm a scientist,
I said, can we try it? So he goes and
takes the phone from underneath the pot. It's a wireless phone,
and he goes walking down the hallway and his mom
calls him from the cell and he answers the phone

(01:26:15):
and his mom's just sitting at the table and she goes, hi, yeah,
U up there it goes. And I'm like, real, matter
of fact, real nonchalantly, and I said, well where what goes?
And she said, I just can't hear him. There's all
this noise. And I said, do you mind if I
hear it? And so she gives me the phone and
I hear feedback, real loud feedback coming back on the
phone on and on, and so I was like, give

(01:26:38):
it to my friend Bill, and I said, Bill, do
me a favor, hang on to the phone for a
sec and tell me what you hear. Bill heard the
same thing. So I walked down the hall where this
little boy was with the wireless and he's there holding
the wireless in his hand and he's shaking it and
he's going hello, Hello. He's really upset because he can't
get the phone gets her to hear him on the phone,

(01:26:58):
and so I was like, Hey, calm down a minute,
just take a breath. Can I have the phone? Do
you mind giving it to me? And he was surprised
to see me there, but he said, oh, yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 (01:27:07):
He gives me the phone.

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
I take the phone and I go hello, Bill. Can
you hear me? Bill says, oh yeah, I hear you
find John. No problem.

Speaker 1 (01:27:15):
I hear everything.

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
I said, Hang on a minute, Bill, I give the
phone back to this little boy, and I hear Bill
from the other room going, there's that noise again, Oh
I'm hearing is that noise? So this happened repeatedly with
me and him. So we took him and took him
around the house in different locations. We had him use
different phones, use my cell phone, Bill's cell phone, other

(01:27:38):
phones in the house. We had him use different carriers, iPhones, androids,
every combination of what we had there, and any time
he had a phone in his hand, we saw this happen.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
Was he radiated? Did you Geiger counter him? Yeah, we
actually looked at this.

Speaker 2 (01:27:55):
So I was following him around with this rod to
measure electrical fields around him, really sensitive because I said
Bill was an electrical engineer. I'm carrying his rod around.
We saw no changes in his magnetic field, no changes
in this electrical field. We saw nothing to indicate that
there was anything coming from him specifically that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:15):
We could measinating. That's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
So this was with the phones. So now I'm like,
this is really crazy. So he had since I talked
to him a bit, he had just gotten a new
computer at this time, and it was really excited. It
was a little laptop computer. He's really excited and really
careful with his laptop computer. And so I was saying
as I was down where his grandmother had her computer

(01:28:39):
broken downstairs and they had a printer down there. It
was on a network in the house, and he said,
I really want to show you something that I wrote.
It's on my computer upstairs. So he went up to
the computer upstairs, his little laptop, and all of a sudden,
I'm sitting with his grandma, and the printer turns on
and all the paper feeds through to the printer, every

(01:29:01):
single sheet. She very casually turns around, turns off. The printer,
takes all the paper, puts it back, turns it back
on in one sheet prints and it was the sheet
that he wanted me to see, I said. And she
didn't mean anything to her, and I said, what happened there?
She goes, Oh, that happens every time he tries to

(01:29:22):
print something.

Speaker 1 (01:29:23):
Roll him up in tinfoil. Yes, like a hostess. Ho
ho remember yes, I went up.

Speaker 2 (01:29:32):
I went up to his room and I watched him
doing it, and we saw the same thing happen with
the printer every time. So I said, wait a minute.
I watched him reboot the computer, pull up a word document,
press print, did the same thing. I said, let me
try it. I took the computer from him, ran through

(01:29:54):
the exact same procedure. One piece printed, No problem, that's fascinating,
gave it back to him. The same thing happened. This
was the beginning where I'm saying, Okay, there's something really
unusual going on here.

Speaker 1 (01:30:07):
You mentioned the remote controls, you know, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
Yeah, So they thought that there was something with their
garage door that whenever he held the remote control it
did weird thing.

Speaker 1 (01:30:21):
But their garage door.

Speaker 2 (01:30:21):
Actually, this is the scientist coming out right. Their garage
door was just broken. It wasn't him. It was just
broken because anybody could have the same effect. But I
watched him walking down. So we're sitting at the table
in their in their living room or in their dining room,
and Bill and I, you know, it's getting a little
later in the day. Bill and I had been we

(01:30:42):
stopped on the way in, and they were obviously sitting
there for a while, and I was like, all of
a sudden, I wrote, have you guys had lunch? And
they were like, oh, no, we were. We were waiting
for you. And I said no, no, no, I said,
you guys should really stop and have lunch. You know,
we can pick this up later. But the little boy
got so excited, so excited he ran into the kitchen
and went next to the toaster robin and he was like, on, oh, boy,

(01:31:05):
oh boy boy, because he was excited because he was
gonna eat a sandwich and the toaster oven started heating up. Jimmy,
it was unplugged and a toaster roven heated up. And
so once he ate it calmed down. The phone was
beeping the whole time that he's eating this sandwich, sitting
next to it.

Speaker 1 (01:31:24):
These things.

Speaker 2 (01:31:25):
It was clear that there was something that was going
on with him that was causing his disruptions. He walked
by a smoke alarm and it started going off, So
there was nothing that we could see. There was nothing
physical going on. And like I said, the family was
it was very nonchalant for them. It happened all the time.
It was very casual.

Speaker 1 (01:31:45):
Faraday cag his bedroom. Yeah, put him in there, give
him takeout food for the rest of his life. I mean,
how do you how do you overcome that we have
We've all seen like a Twilight Zone episode or you know,
a Black Mirror or something where you've got the troubled

(01:32:09):
kid that's got parental issues whatever it is, right, and
he's controlling and affecting what's around him because he's been
victimized his entire life for whatever reason. Right is that
what was going on here? Was there some trauma in

(01:32:32):
his life.

Speaker 2 (01:32:34):
There was nothing apparent in this situation. Like I said,
he's living with his mom and his grandma. They all
seemed to get along pretty well. He didn't seem to
be like really thrown off in any way. But as
I was talking before about this Tina Resh situation back
in the seventies, there were methods that had been kind
of looked into as ways to help calm this situation.

(01:32:57):
So the first thing I did after we all sat
down and we recognized that there was something unusual happening,
is I asked him, do you know anything about relaxation techniques,
meditation anything? Like? The family didn't know anything about them.
So I taught him a very simple breathing exercise guided meditation.

(01:33:19):
I taught the whole family because I didn't want his
mom to be stirring him up when these things happened
at a later time. So I taught the whole family
how to do these relaxation exercises, these breathing exercises, And
I thought, well, maybe that'll help to calm the situation.
So if he feels like he's getting worked up, he
can calm himself down. But besides this, I taught him

(01:33:45):
a way to do mindfulness. I said, next time that
one of these things happened, where something goes off, it
goes crazy around you, I said, think about what would stop?
Think about what was I just thinking, And then think
about what was I think in just a minute ago.
To see if he could recognize the triggers things that

(01:34:07):
were causing this to happen.

Speaker 1 (01:34:09):
Keep going, keep going, and.

Speaker 2 (01:34:11):
The next and so the third thing is I gave
him one of those little wheels in a jar, and
I said, that wheel in the jar, if you focus
on it, maybe you can take this unconscious activity and
make it conscious and learn how to control it. Well.
He never really warmed up with the idea of the
wheel in the jar, but he did start doing the

(01:34:32):
relaxation exercises. And after we left that day, about a
week later, I got a call from his grandma and said,
everything is kind of quieted downe it's almost stopped. And
I said, and she said, he really loves his breathing exercises.
So he'll be walking down the hallway or he'll be
walking around the house and all of a sudden he'll

(01:34:54):
just say, oh, I have to do my breaf, He'll
realize the trigger was coming and do his breathing exercise
and relax, and it all went away. Within a week,
everything calmed down and nearly everything disappeared. That was a
real success. It seemed like it was working. But about

(01:35:15):
three weeks later they had a disruption in the family
structure and the family had to move out of the house.
There was a lot of anxiety. They had to go
live in a hotel for a week, and I got
a call from his grandma saying, we're here in all
kind of banging and loud noises. We thought that people
were in the hotel banging on our door and on
the walls, but the management says, no one's here. Could

(01:35:38):
this be related to what you were seeing at the house.
And I said, yes, that's exactly what we see in
polter geist cases. We are noises, we see things move,
we see this electronic disruption. And I said, have him
use the same breathing exercises he was using before he
started using them. The phenomena started to get less and

(01:35:59):
less phenomen nomena, and then when the family situation resolved itself,
it all went away.

Speaker 1 (01:36:05):
Now, Okay, okay, I love that but what is the
root cause, what is the energy that is being used here?
There is something fundamental that is being locked into that
is all around us, that is being manipulated. Yep, find

(01:36:27):
out what that is.

Speaker 2 (01:36:29):
Well, you know, you know, when you read my bio,
you mentioned I was in technology for twenty years.

Speaker 1 (01:36:36):
We have this.

Speaker 2 (01:36:37):
Any technology shop, any software shop, you go into, any
any computer shop that where people work a lot together.
There's all these stories about the one person who walks
in and everything breaks, and then you got these other
stories about one person who walks in and everything seems
to work better and seems to fix and some the
people who fix things, they're usually the developers, and the

(01:36:59):
people who break things are the testers. So the question
I had when I went to the Ryan and started
working in the lab was are those stories real? I mean,
we know the stories, but is there something really happening?
So I designed to study, as I said, if this
unconscious p K activity is happening, it's more likely to

(01:37:21):
show up in electronics now then it would have been
twenty five years ago. Two yeah, yea.

Speaker 1 (01:37:29):
Fairies have been around for a long time, if you
know what I mean, If you know what I mean,
right before electronics. So the phenomenon has always been here.
We just live in a you know, an electronic environment
where whatever it is, I'm just curious, what's the energy
source that seems to be showing itself, right?

Speaker 2 (01:37:52):
So I wanted to know first was this real? And
is this unconscious? Does this happen in the control environment,
not just in someone's house where I can't really control
the things. So I designed to study where I had
this network running constantly in the house in a real
world environment. I had this network running and this constantly

(01:38:14):
sending the same message.

Speaker 1 (01:38:15):
Back and forth.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
Now, most networks they do auto correction if there's an
error and transmission, but I changed it so that the
network wouldn't do autocorrection. I'd actually count the number of
errors in this network.

Speaker 1 (01:38:27):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
And I brought people in and I had them trying
to do simple tasks on a computer. They didn't even
know the network was in the room. They're trying to
do things at silly games, you know, like move the
ball across the across the screen, type some certain words
in or you know, find the lost object, or pick

(01:38:50):
the card out of a bunch of cards. These silly
games that I created and I told them, if you
finish them in twenty minutes, I'll give you a reward,
like i'll give you some chocolate. So I was trying
to get them motivated to finish it quick. Well, half
the people came in and they were going through it normally,
but half of them I broke the software on purpose.

(01:39:13):
I made it so when they tried to move the
mouse around, it would jump around the screen. Whenever they
were typing letters, it would be the wrong letters come up.
I was trying to get them irritated and anxious, and
my thought was any sort of strong emotion might cause
this unconscious PK to occur. And it's easier to get

(01:39:34):
people anxious and agitated than it was to produce ecstasy
in the laboratory. And so I had this network running
and my idea was, if they're getting agitated and it's
causing unconscious PK, I should see more errors on this
network that's in the room. That would tell me that
all these experiences that I've had in the software lab

(01:39:55):
grown for so many years, maybe there's something to it.
And it turns out out when people were more anxious,
I saw more errors on that network than when they weren't.
So it seems that it's something to do with our emotions,
something to do with when we get really have very
strong emotions that are causing this unconscious activity to occur.

Speaker 1 (01:40:17):
Is it happening at the extreme quantum level?

Speaker 2 (01:40:24):
I don't know where it's happening. This is the thing.
We know, where do emotions come from? You know, we
feel them, but we don't know are they having effects
outside of us? And this is where I got very
curious about this potential energy that you're talking about, the
energy that might be affecting these objects around us. And

(01:40:47):
so I started looking at different energies that we might
explore us, things like electricity. We talk to people who
do energy healing a lot, or people who do have
PK effects purposely, and we looked at the electricity that
comes from their body. You know, our body is an

(01:41:07):
electrical system, right, We have our nervous system, our brain.
All there's electrical signals, but in order to measure them,
we have to be right up against the body. The
electrical field doesn't really expand too much outside of our body.
We get just a few centimeters or so away, we

(01:41:28):
lose the signal. If so, I said anytime you have
electrical electrical current, you also have magnetism working around that current,
so the body has a magnetic field as well. But again,
to measure it, we've got to be really close to
the body, and these effects we're seeing are at a
distance from the body, sometimes a large, large distance, so

(01:41:51):
it doesn't seem like it's electrical or magnetic. We looked
at different things like even static electricity, anything, and we
tried to see if we could measure this around people
who seem to be having these effects. Well, we hadn't
found anything there, but we started looking at light. And

(01:42:12):
the body naturally produces light in the ultraviolet range.

Speaker 1 (01:42:18):
We just don't see it. Yeah, we just don't get.

Speaker 2 (01:42:20):
It's invisible to us, right because it's ultraviolet. And so
this ultraviolet light, though it's naturally produced. And there was
this guy back in the nineteen seventies named Fritz Pop
who started looking at organically produced fruits and vegetables versus
those that were not organically produced, and he saw there
was a difference in the ultraviolet light that was coming

(01:42:41):
off of these fruits and vegetables. Because it's not only people,
any animals, plants, even any organic matter, even single cells
produce this light. We don't know exactly where it comes from.
It's called ultra weeek photon emissions or a special cases
called biophotons that come from any organic matter. So we

(01:43:05):
set up a lab at the Rhine and we have
a really dark room. It's a room as dark room
inside of another dark room.

Speaker 1 (01:43:15):
So, and we have a special piece of.

Speaker 2 (01:43:17):
Equipment there called a photo multiplier tube. This can measure
a single photon of light every half second. It's used
in very engineering applications and laser technology. We were using
it to measure light coming from people and trying to

(01:43:39):
see if we brought in people who are like healers,
people who are doing PK, people who are having different
sorts of experiences, would we see this light coming from
them and would it be any different than when they're
just sitting around doing nothing. So we'd bring them in
and say okay, just sit and do nothing for about
five minutes, and we get readings about ten to twelve

(01:44:03):
photons a second, not very much. That's like no light
at all, really really dark. You can't see it, of course,
because it's in the ultra violet range, but it's so
little light you wouldn't see it anyway. Then we said
start your healing, start your martial arts form. People who
talk about chi energies around them, people who are doing PK,

(01:44:25):
We say, start your exercise, whatever it is, and we
look for changes from the baseline. With about ninety percent
of the people we brought in get nothing, continue to
get the baseline the whole time. But with about ten
percent we saw change. And this change of light in
this room would go from about twelve ten to twelve

(01:44:48):
photons a second go up to eighty. That's a big change. Statistically,
this is huge, right, But I had people go up
to three hundred thousands of photons, tens of thousands, even
had two people go over a million photons a second.

(01:45:08):
When we have this going on in the room, there's
something unusual going on.

Speaker 1 (01:45:12):
Well, that's something you can measure that excitesactly.

Speaker 2 (01:45:15):
Yes, And what's interesting about light is that it's electromagnetic energy,
and so we are actually measuring a change in energy
in the room when these people are having the experience
that they are having a larger energy flow or doing
a martial arts form where they're trying to increase their

(01:45:36):
chie So could this light be a reflection of their
chie You light.

Speaker 1 (01:45:42):
Up a room takes on a whole new meaning, doesn't it. Yes,
I have friends. I joke about this, but I have
friends that glow. I'm serious too. You can tell you
can see them coming, you know, in a group of people,
you know, saying that they light up a room. I can,
and I'll tease them. You glow, you know, But I

(01:46:07):
you know, oh oh, I wanted to mention this. You
brought up guitar earlier. I knew this bass player. I
knew him quite well. It's kind of famous. Actually, I
knew this bass player that when you have an electric
guitar plugged into an amp and you take your hands

(01:46:28):
off of it, you unground it and you can hear
it right, but you put your hands on the strings,
it stops right. So you're always wanting to touch the guitar,
something metal on it, to ground it out and to
stop the noise. Right, Okay, it's a When you play

(01:46:48):
electric guitar, you learn the art of always touching something
on the guitar. I had a bass player where it
was the opposite. He would touch the strings and it
would make noise. And dude, anything that he touched made

(01:47:10):
that static. He didn't get many gigs, but it was
there was something that this guy was electrified, the famous guy,
you know, talented individual, but that was that was a
burden that he carried with him. He was always fighting

(01:47:31):
it with his base rigs and having to use noise
gates and everything else. Because everything that he touched a
microphone on stage. It was just like, yeah, he was charged.
There was something like I was saying, too much iron
in his blood. I know, I'm joking. It sounds, but

(01:47:51):
our brain, you know, is full of you know what
I mean, we are electric individuals.

Speaker 2 (01:47:59):
Well, you and Jimmy, you got to joke about this
stuff because it's so weird.

Speaker 1 (01:48:04):
You know, we got it.

Speaker 2 (01:48:05):
We're trying to understand it from a scientific perspective, but hey,
when this stuff happens, it surprises us as much as
it surprises everyone else. We're looking at it through a
different lens. But it's just it's crazy when we see
these phenomena occur, and see them consistently occurring over and
over and over again. And now that in this situation

(01:48:25):
you're describing, it could have been his electrical field of
his body. It could have been the magnet because he
was touching the strings when it happened, so it may
have been it was something that was you know, we
all have certain times of the year where we walk
across the floor and everything seems to be shocking us
all the time. And it may be the environment. I'm

(01:48:45):
sure it is the environment a lot of times, but
it also seems sometimes like there's something weird about me
right now that's going on. And so this whole idea
of that case, I could see how it might be
electricity in the body, or magnet magnetic field in the body,
or something of this nature. But in these cases where
people are working from a distance where they're not touching

(01:49:08):
this thing and you can still see these events occurring,
that's when it gets really interesting. So here I got
this special device to measure photon measure lights in the room,
and I have this one man I work with quite often.
His name is Ed Edwards, and he every time, nearly
every time he comes in my lab, I see these

(01:49:31):
effects from where he produces light nearly every session he does.

Speaker 1 (01:49:35):
Do I know Ed Yeah, actually he was a game
I know Ed Edwards? Yes, Yes, okay, this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:49:45):
Yes, So I've been working with him for fifteen years well,
I had him in the lab one time, with his
doing his normal things. He's just producing.

Speaker 1 (01:49:54):
Man. I had lunch with Ed. I had lunch there
you go. Yes, he's quite a character. He's a special
he's a special guy. You know what he said to me,
He goes, Okay, Jimmy, man, you gotta let me do
my thing with you. I was like, no, man, I
was watching him work with people. Uh over that those

(01:50:20):
three or four days, people coming up to me going, man,
that Ed Edwards. That was incredible, just absolutely incredible. I mean,
people like like their lives had changed. But yes, I
didn't step into the magic box with him. I didn't. Well,
you know, I've known him for so long.

Speaker 2 (01:50:38):
I've seen these things happening, and that he's tried working
with me on it, and very because I know him
really well, I don't get the same sort of reaction
as other people do whenever he works with them. But
he does see many many people talk about him. He
has an effect on them physically.

Speaker 1 (01:50:54):
Nice guy, nice guy, real cool dude. But he's special.
He's he's special.

Speaker 2 (01:51:03):
Yeah, there's a lot of things I can tell you
about Ed, But my point is when I bring him
in the lab, he nearly every time gets the result.
In the lab, I always see changes in the light. Well,
I brought him in there one time and I was like, Ed,
I got this. He knows this device. He opens a shutter.
It's like a camera shutter open. You pull something that

(01:51:25):
opens it up and it lets light into the machine
so we can measure the light in the room. So
he's doing his thing, and I said, ED, do me
a favor. Close that shutter, but keep doing the same thing.
So he goes, all right, So he closes the shutter.
No light can get into the device. Now he's doing
the same thing, and I still see readings like there's

(01:51:48):
light being in the room. So I come to the
conclusion there's only two things I can think of. Either
he's producing light on the other side of the shutter
inside the machine, or he's affecting the electronics of the
machine itself and or the monitoring equipment. He's affecting them,

(01:52:11):
just like that little boy was having the effect in
the Polter in twenty first century Polter guy's case. Just
like these people when they were in the we're in
the experiment where I had the network running. Their emotions
were affecting the network in the same way he was
affecting the electronics now wasn't as strong as when he

(01:52:33):
had had to shut her open, So there was clearly
light being produced, but it still was there even when
the light wasn't when the light couldn't get into the machine.

Speaker 1 (01:52:44):
You know what he said to me. You know what
he said to me. He goes, he looks right in
my eyeballs and he goes, Jimmy, I can do anything.
I was like, man, oh, he goes, you want to
see something like, No, Man, I'm good, I'm good. Scared

(01:53:07):
the crap out of me. Man, I mean very serious
in what he was saying. There's nothing I can't do.
I can do it.

Speaker 2 (01:53:16):
Hey. He has great confidence, yeah, a great competence. And
you know that confidence is one of the things that
makes it possible to do things because you know, again,
I go back to the old sports analogy. If you're
a baseball player, you go up to the plate and
you don't think you're going to hit the ball. You
ain't gonna hit the ball, that's right, But if you
have confidence, you're likely to do it. And his confidence

(01:53:38):
is really strong, so it makes it happen.

Speaker 1 (01:53:41):
Yeah. Yeah, Uh, where can everybody not only follow I
want to wrap up what you found in the research,
but also with anybody that has interest in this. Where
can they chase you down?

Speaker 2 (01:53:57):
Well, I'm at the Ryan Research Center, so you can
find us at Ryan dot org. And as you were mentioning,
we give classes on parapsychology.

Speaker 1 (01:54:05):
We don't teach people to be psychic, but we teach people.

Speaker 2 (01:54:08):
How to study these things, how to learn more about them,
how to do investigations. If you think there might be
some sort of poltergeist or a spirit or even something
like related to reincarnation or near death experiences, how do
you investigate these things? And that's at the Ryan Education
Center at ryanedu dot org, so you can find all
kinds of information there as well. We're we're on YouTube

(01:54:32):
at Ryan Research Center. You can find us on Twitter
x you know at same place and Instagram. You can
find us look for us on social media. If you
join our organization and you what it is, just go
to the website and sign up for a membership. It's
only ten bucks a month. It isn't that much, but
it provides you with access to things like we do talks.

(01:54:54):
We have people who give talks every month. And so
we have one hundred and fifty or so videos of
different really important people in the field, like Russell Tark,
Joe mcmonagall, Roger Nelson, we have Lloyd Auerback. We have
so many different people in the field who have spoken
for us. You can see videos of their talks and

(01:55:14):
what they've discussed. You can get access to all this
plus some monthly meetings and things. In addition, Hey, Jimmy,
I don't know if you remember at at the Side
Games there was this woman named Laura Lynn Jackson there.

Speaker 1 (01:55:28):
Did you meet Laurlyn?

Speaker 2 (01:55:29):
Yeh?

Speaker 1 (01:55:29):
Yeh.

Speaker 2 (01:55:31):
Laura Lyn is a really famous medium.

Speaker 1 (01:55:33):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:55:34):
She's someone who is very well known, and her waiting
list as a mediums is more than five five years long,
and she's not taken new people. She's on my board
of directors, and she's sponsoring a raffle for the Ryne
right now. To get a reading from her. You can
find that information on our website and get a taken

(01:55:56):
to the raffle. This is a fundraising raffle to enable
us to continue to do our research or a nonprofit
organization allows us to continue to do our research, continue
to present events and have these monthly meetings that we
have to tell people learn more about these phenomena. So
that's the way you can get a hold of me
and learn more about all these things.

Speaker 1 (01:56:15):
You know what's fascinating with me about the science side
of this. And we can close on this because we
were talking about what this energy source may be, and
all the talk right now in the world of physics
is dark energy, right, dark energy, dark energy. There's more
than that than regular energy, but we just can't see it.

(01:56:35):
We don't know what it is. And they know they
know something is there. They know that something is causing
the movement in space. They know that the expansion. They
know that they're but they can't see it. They can't
touch it, they can't feel it, they can't but it
fits their math. They need it although they can't expelo

(01:57:01):
And so here we have physics trying to convince us,
and it's their job that dark energy exists, and that's
part of their mission is they're going to go and
find out what this strange thing is. We you and
I and this community, it's been talking about this shit
for thousands of years. Right, This is not a surprise

(01:57:25):
to us. But I'm happy that science is now is
it consciousness. Is there something else that is tied into this?
You know, all those things that science wants to deny,
But it's starting to support what your research is looking
into and the phenomena that this community has been enjoying

(01:57:46):
since the dawn of man. And that's what I enjoy.
Science is getting closer to figuring out what this. You know,
air quotes dark energy is right.

Speaker 2 (01:57:55):
Well, dark energy is essentially energy. We don't know where
from with it, from which it comes, right, and so
we're trying to look at what looking at this light,
this ultraviolet light and looking at energy. Healers who talk
about moving energies around talk about martial artists who talk
about chi energies, Meditators talk about cundalini energies. They're all

(01:58:19):
feeling this thing that feels electric, feels magnetic at times,
but they don't find magnetic or electrical or electrical fields
around them. But this light is an electromagnetic energy. We
are finding something that seems to be related to the
energy that they're talking about. So this is the work

(01:58:40):
that we continue doing. And you know, I'm really glad
you gave me the opportunity to be here, Jimmy. It's
happy we got a chance to talk again. I'm really
happy that we've got to see each other and happy
you got to spend a little time at side games
hopefully again next year.

Speaker 1 (01:58:54):
Huh, yeah, absolutely. And I would like to come by
the Ryan Institute and check stuff, saying Institute Research Center
and and come by and say hello. And maybe you
guys can plug me in and see if I glow.
Put you in the dark and see if you're glowing. Yeah,
see if I fade to black. Ah, I said it,

(01:59:14):
I said it, John, Thank you so much. Enjoy the
rest of your evening, and I look forward to our
next conversation, my friend. Thank you, Jimmy, it's good to
be here. Have a good night. Thank you so much,
John Caruth. Everybody, now, we've got all the links for
the rhine below, so you can go and and and
do you deep dive and go and check out everything
that they do over there with this. Uh, this will

(01:59:38):
wrap this week on Fade to Black. Tomorrow night we're
off air. I am attending a Halloween party and I'm
going to go and do that. So everybody just have
a great, safe, fun and amazing weekend, and I'll see
you right back here. On Monday. All Right, all right,
but for now, all I've got is go back, Lee Tappy.

(02:00:02):
Fade to Black is produced by Hilton J. Palm, Renee
Newman and Michelle Free. Special thanks to Bill, John Dex,
Jessica Dennis and Kevin Webmaster is Drew the Geek. Music
by Doug Albridge intro Spaceboy. Aide to Black is produced

(02:00:23):
by kJ c R for the Game Changer Network. This
broadcast is owned and copyrighted twenty twenty four by Fade
to Black and the Game Changer Network, Inc. It cannot
be rebroadcast, downloaded, copied, or used anywhere in the known
universe without written permission from Fade to Black or the
Game Changer Network. I'm your host, Jimmy Church, Go Beckley,

(02:00:44):
Teppy