FADE to BLACK host: Jimmy Church guest: Dr. Callum Cooper

Tonight, Professor of Parapsycology, Callum Cooper, joins us from the UK to discuss his work, books, and do a deep dive into the subject!!!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:27):
This Hope Radio for the Masses.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Headline of this move July eighth, nineteen forty seven, The
Audi Airport is person outstart applying to.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
Certain found and there's now in the possession.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Of the ard with the game is really changed the
game Game Changer. I occasionally think how quickly our difference
is worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien
threat from outside this work.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
This is Day to Black. It's your host, Jimmy Church
on the Game Changer Radio Network. Well, well, well, good evening,
how you doing. How you doing you miss me? Yeah,
it's fade to Black. Today is Monday, November seventeenth, twenty
twenty five. Let's do this man. Nah. Yeah, I'm your host,

(01:23):
Jimmy Church. A couple of things before we get started tonight.
We took last week off. I had to go and
tape more episodes of Beyond Belief, And so while I
was gone, the storms rolled in here to La started raining,
and I got back at the end of the week.

(01:44):
Rain constantly rained all weekend. It's raining today. Today is Monday.
So I'm having Harley withdrawal. There's that part. The other
part is a couple of things I don't know for sure,
I haven't checked it, but if I was a betting man,

(02:07):
I'm sure that we've gotten around a foot of rain.
And it's not an exaggeration in the last seven days.
We always need rain out here. I live in the
Mohave Desert. It doesn't rain often, rains maybe once in
the summer and then a few times during the winter. Now,
and here's the other part. It's cold, and normally when

(02:30):
it does this in the winter, the mountains around me
are covered in snow. We have Big Bear and skiing
and Snow Summit and all of that that's just a
half hour away, hour away. And yeah, it's not cold
enough to turn this into snow. So everything is just
rain and flooding and it's crazy. But we can never

(02:53):
have enough rain here. We can never have enough water.
So we love it, but we don't get it often.
And you know, everything clogs up, the drains and streets
flood and you know, we have all of that. No
power outages, no internet issues, nothing like that, just staying
in the house, cozy and warm and watching a lot

(03:15):
of television. So there you go. Here we go, kicking
off another brand new week here on Fate to Black,
and it's a great week. Tonight, Callum Cooper joins us
live from the United Kingdom. We're talking about ghost, hauntings
and survival. Tomorrow night, Nicola Farmer joins us. Finally we're
gonna be talking about the ICEE You Academy, all of

(03:36):
that Tomorrow night. Wednesday night, Massadi is back with us.
We're gonna be talking about the ND the Near Death Experience,
a complete reveal on the subject. And then Thursday night,
another huge night. All everything is big this week. Julia
Mossbridge is back, doctor Julia Mossbridge. She's got a new

(03:58):
book out on disclosure, and you know, we we talk
about neuroscience with her and parapsychology and the quantum world
and how that affects everything. But to have her, she's
such a big brain to have a book out on
disclosure and the process of disclosure for all of us,

(04:21):
you know, and how to deal with it. And that's
what we're going to do on Thursday night with Julia Mospers.
So we have just an absolute huge week on Fade
to Black. Now, my next event coming up is the
Conscious Life Expo that is February twentyth through the twenty third,
twenty twenty six at the lax Hilton. Tickets are available

(04:42):
now over at Consciouslifeexpo dot com. The links for that
are below in the description of course, over on our
website and throughout social media. You know what to do.
All right, let's get started very excited about the show tonight.
Callum Cooper is here live from the UK and before
even comes on, thank you Callum for doing this. I

(05:03):
know what time it is over there. It's so cool
that you do that for us. But we're going to
be talking about parapsychology tonight. His research into ghosts and
hauntings and of course I mentioned survival and his work
on phone calls from the dead. That's right, We're going
to do all of that and much more. He's a

(05:24):
professor of all of this. We're going to talk about
what he does over at the University of Northampton and
what is parapsychology in universities. He is a professor, how
is it taught? What is the science behind it? We're
going to do all of that because he is a
professor of Parapsychology and Public Understanding of Human Science at

(05:46):
California Institute for Human Science and Associate professor of psychology
at the University of Northampton. I would like his links
are below. I would like to welcome for the first
time to Faded Black Callum Cooper Callum, Welcome to the show.
How you doing.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
I'm good, Jimmy, how are you?

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Man? It's so good to have you here. And you
get the first time guest disclaimer. I thought you were
I thought you and I had met. It was so funny.
We were talking about this before the show as I
was welcoming you back, and then I just realized that
I'm getting too old for this man. But welcome, and
you get the first time guest disclaimer, which is Callum.

(06:27):
It's you and I just sitting on my couch having
a conversation as friends. Where the conversation starts and starts
where it ends, it ends, but we're gonna end as friends.
There you go, but you have to accept so we
can move on. Yeah, very good, very good. That was
too easy. That was too easy. Uh so okay, so

(06:47):
many ways to start this conversation tonight. And parapsychology itself
is a very broad umbrella. It's big, and it's also
something that I think is a misused term. You know,
people say it all the time. And may not really understand,
but they think it applies to their situation. And that's

(07:11):
how big this subject has gotten. So let's actually start
there for you. What is your definition of parapsychology.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
I don't have one personally, but the one that we
keep gravitating towards whenever we do classes is outlined by
Harvey Jowen and Caroline Watt. So they did the fifth
edition together of an Introduction to Parapsychology, and that is
Parapsychology is a science which looks at unusual human experiences

(07:41):
and or abilities which in principle seem to be outside
of the realms of conventional scientific paradigm. So what science
currently understands. So we're aware of the experience or the ability,
and when we look at conventional explanations, in some instances
of those things, the ghost things moving seemingly as of

(08:01):
their own accord, there doesn't seem to be a conventional explanation.
So that's how I defined that science.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
Okay, let's narrow that down a bit if we can.
You said your own ability, So what does that entail?
What does that mean?

Speaker 1 (08:14):
So some people might profess the ability to influence things
with their mind, so move things, turn lights on and arf,
or interact in a way with computer systems with just
their mind, or affect biological systems so influence people from behind.
Like staring detection. You can stare at the back of
someone's body or head and they start to fidget and

(08:36):
they turn around and notice your glare as though your
stare was having that influence on them. A famous person
for all of this was Nina Kalagana or Coolergina, who
could move wood and plastic and metal and deflect compass needles,
but also reports of her stopping frog hearts, which is
what eventually led to all the stories behind the men

(08:57):
who stare at goats and the remote viewing projects. Other
abilities people could report might be seeing future events before
they happen accurately, maybe in dreams, all the way through
to mediumship. So people professing that they can either channel
the dead or in seance type phenomena phenomena that there

(09:18):
would be a movement of objects around the room.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Now, well, see you say things like that, But back
to what I had mentioned earlier. It's a broad scope,
isn't it.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, That specific abilities, I mean the more common stuff
that just day to day experiences. It's rarer to get
someone that professes an ability than it is when it
comes to day to day phenomena, which we call spontaneous phenomena,
and that could be telephone's leapathy people are being aware of.
When you think of a friend or a relative that
you haven't spoken to in a long time, and then

(09:49):
ring ring ding, ping, email alert it's them. Before you
even get to the phone or the email, you know
it's them, and yet you were thinking of them and
it wasn't a regular occurrence. You could suddenly see an apparition.
It might be during bereavement, it might not be. You
could suddenly have a knowing about something a distant location

(10:11):
before coming into contact with it. All these certain things,
they're very very common spontaneous experiences, and particularly stuff surrounding
death as well. Whereas sometimes it's bereavement related, sometimes it isn't.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
I why do so many people ignore the phone call
that they haven't gotten in five years after they think
of somebody? Right, it's just a coincidence, it's not. It's
so strange, but so many just dismiss it as just normal.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
I think we hear these stories so often. It's interesting
when people say, ah, it's just one of those things.
But yeah, it is, But what's the mechanism? Is it
just pure coincidence? Which is interesting. Human ability to accurately
appraise coincidence or not is interesting for what we call
anomalistic psychology. So we have three strands. We've got anomalistic psychology, parapsychology,

(11:08):
and clinical parapsychology. If we're looking at anomalistic psychology, we're
interested in all the aspects of psychology that we're aware
of that seemed to produce what could be a paranormal experience,
a strange experience, but there's a mechanism we know behind it.
Then parapsychology is aware of that, but wants to know
what's left. It's like panning for gold, So we're aware

(11:30):
of all the dirt, but the gold nuggets are great
and they don't make sense. They're not dirt, so what
are they? What's going on there? Parapsychology wants to know
what's left, and clinical parapsychology takes all of that, has
read and says, we're not challenging the experience. You say
you've seen a ghost or you've had a vision of
something before, it's happened, How has it affected you? What's
the well being aspect? Haws it change your world view?

(11:52):
How has it changed your outlook on life? How do
you feel following that experience? What did it mean to you?
Why does it matter? So with the anomalistic side of things,
we could look into things like when people say, oh,
my goodness, I've just met you know, I didn't realize
we had the same birthday. That's incredible. What are the
chances of that? And people think, well, you need at least,
you know, half as many people as there are days

(12:14):
in the year, or maybe one for every day in
the year. Actually you need about twenty two twenty three
two yeah, yeah, And by those statistics, two people will
share the same birthday. So sometimes what we think are
really large, you know, statistics are actually a lot smaller
than we think. And so again, the amount of times
we think about someone that you know, we would be

(12:35):
in contact with but not on a regular basis, at
some point you or them are going to reach out.
So it might seem strange when actually it's not so
strange because we have to look at what when is
that kind of going to come around again, So we
could weigh up those experiences and look at many to
see what does seem to have a conventional explanation and
what doesn't.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
I it has come and play with me. When you know,
somebody's name pops in my head, I'll look down at
my phone and watch it ring. Right, it's like that.
But so I started an experiment about four years ago
and it hasn't panned out. And this is the experiment.

(13:19):
I am a French press guy for my coffee. Okay,
I'm a big coffee drinker. Okay, I'm big coffee drinker.
Every morning I make my French press and grind my
beans and make an espresso to pour into it. All right,

(13:40):
the person who introduced me to the French press in
nineteen eighty seven, I don't know how old you are,
but I don't know if you were born. Okay, so
nineteen eighty seven the person and her father. Right, So

(14:01):
this is the experiment. You might find this enjoyable. Every
day that I make and prep my French press, I
say her name. Okay, just put it out there. I
mean a fun move, you know, And I do it
every single day that I make my French press, I

(14:21):
say your name and hoping that she'll reach out hasn't happened.
It's really weird, and so there's got to be a
way to test this. I know this isn't some you know,
set up a sterile laboratory type of thing to observe

(14:45):
and measure and figure this out. But this person lives
on the East Coast, Okay, and it's not like she's nearby,
so it is a pretty solid But nothing in four years,
and I believe in this. Do you think she's getting
the message right and just being lazy with the email

(15:08):
or the phone call it? You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (15:12):
Have you ever asked her what she's doing at the
time that you make in the coffee, just in case
she's had some interesting coincidence or she's mentioned your name
or looked at a photo of you. Of course, the
thing is if you mentioned the routine and the time
that you're doing it, then it'll be she'll be very
conscious of it.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
Right, Yes, and thank you for the advice on that.
I've thought about that a lot. Do I reach out now?
And does that kill the experiment that we'll ruin it? Yeah?
So you know I've thought about this a lot. I
totally agree. Now when she will reach out eventually, right,
I will ask her that have you been thinking about me? Yeah,

(15:50):
every day at eight am? Right, you know, I don't know.
I it's but I just thought that I would try this.
So it's my own little thing. If it pans out,
I'll let you know.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
I'll give you the whole thing of premonitions if you
have ones of Like usually a premonition comes about as
something really boring and mundane. But if it's like what
we see in the movie is like final destination and
things like that. If you were to actually have something
so accurate that you knew how to go about intervening
and stopping it, and you do stop it, then there's
no premonition, because if you stop the disaster, then it

(16:23):
hasn't panned out.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
Oh what, I started a thought experiment with myself. Now
I'm going to share it with you in our audience. Okay,
are you ready? This is my dark mind. This is
where it goes. So the other night I was in
the dark thinking about the universe, right, just whatever, and

(16:47):
this thought popped in my head. So I will ask
you I answered it myself. We'll get to that. If
you knew the rest of your life forward and how
it ends. Would you change anything.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
If I already knew yep.

Speaker 3 (17:15):
And how and how it ends? Do you change anything?

Speaker 1 (17:25):
I like the mystery. I don't want to know. I
don't want to know what's happening.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
That's not the question.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yeah, yeah, Well, i'd have a lot of intervening to do.
If I already know the rest of my life, I'd
be spending all my time stopping that sequence of events.
I'd have no choice but to just go with it,
because it's a lot. If it was just a few
events that I could change, then definitely i'd change them
because I would want to not know. I'm going to
have to in that scenario, I'm gonna have to let

(17:51):
it happen.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
You're gonna have to let it happen. What about the ending?
What about the ending? Yeah? I don't Yeah, you know
what I mean. The ending could be something embarrassing, right,
you know, you choked on your tenth chocolate bar sitting
you know they find all the rappers are on the floor.
Oh my god, he ate himself to death. You know

(18:14):
it could be something. Do you intervene on that or
do you just let that go too? No?

Speaker 1 (18:20):
I either want to go peacefully or at in some
fantastic way, just something that's very me. That's an incredible
way to go. Want that or peace? I don't want
anything in between.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
So I answered this question myself honestly because I was alone.
So you're honest with yourself. Just let it go, you know,
if I know, well, okay, I don't think you want
to mess with the order of things, you know, and
if you mess with the order of things, that could
influence other people's lives. So yeah, and you don't want that,

(18:57):
So okay, you find out, you find out, but just
let it go.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
I used it as an undergraduate. Well, I did a
module called consciousness Studies, and I was with that very
guy today he still works for the University of Northampton,
so he taught me as an undergraduate. Now he's a
long time colleague and a very, very skeptical of parapsychology.
But I always thought when we had classes discussing the
difference between free will and physically determined events, and which

(19:29):
do we have? Do we have free will or are
things all physically determined for us? I would always throw
the spanner in the works of But what about premonitions
that people have? That's the third element because you know,
we have this tricky thing that certain elements of our
lives seem to be events that you know, have important
impact on our survival if they're disasters, that we see

(19:50):
them beforehand, and to what extent do we have free
will to intervene or are those not only physically determined
but we can see ahead of time what is going
to happen as well, And so that creates some really
interesting debate as an undergraduate. So that's a very interesting
aspect of consciousness, that is, and what's.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
Your take on that? When I when I listen to
and talk to physicists and people of the heart sciences,
and two things always inevitably come up, consciousness and free will.
I want everybody's take on it. It's amazing how physicists
and hard scienists and people that deal with the world

(20:31):
of quantum and math are absolutely, at least outwardly publicly steadfast.
And there's no such thing as free will. That the
only part of free will that's real is you think
you have it, so you have the warmth of making

(20:52):
a decision, but you didn't make that decision. It's like, why,
what's your take on free will? Do we have it?

Speaker 1 (21:02):
I'm not sure if I've got a hard and fast
take on it, but I've heard that notion a number
of times and I quite like it. Especially in today's
society that we live in. Everything is tracked monitored how you,
you know, pay your bills and the way that you've
got to go about life to make a living and
make sure the electricity is on, the heatings on and

(21:23):
things everything. You're stuck in a system, and you could
break that system, but it's not going to go well
for you. But you can also predict what's going to
happen because of physically determined events that are set in
place to make sure that if you don't follow your
set routine of going to work, if you don't follow
set your set routine of paying the bills and you know,
seeing the people you need to and looking after the

(21:44):
people that you need to and turning off for meetings,
you pretty much know where that's going to go. So
you have to go with the flow, and you have
to get things done in a positive way, and you
have to be a good citizen and do your job
and turn up on time and do this, and do
that and do the other. And so I can completely
buy the notion that it's an illusion that yeah, sure,
you can do whatever you like, you can intervene any

(22:05):
time you can, but then you know where it's going
as well. So it's far better to just go with
the flow and let the events take you on this journey.

Speaker 4 (22:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, God, that's so depressing, and it's very depressing. And
I'm this is where I'm in the middle. Let me
tell you why I'm in the middle. My audience, right now,
I could do an instant poll right and go, okay,
do we have free will? Yes or no? In fact,
I'll ask the chat room right now, do we have

(22:36):
free will? Yes or no? All right, it's a straight
there's no great area there. And so I want to
believe that I have free will, that I can choose
my own destiny. And then I think about the universe,
and I think about particles. I think about the quantum

(22:57):
world and how things come by and how we got here.
That is all in order of gravity, math, equations and
everything else, and it's going to continue to play out
the way that it's going to play out. Inside of
that are us. We are made up of those same particles, right,

(23:20):
and they are going to do their thing. I want
a chocolate shake instead of a vanilla shake. I make
the decision at that moment, and I feel like I
just made the decision to heaven nice delicious, ice cold chocolate,
creamy shake. Right. I was going to make that choice anyway.

(23:43):
The universe is playing out its particle dance and it
really bums me out. So I don't know. I think
I'm just going to go on faith.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
Well, there was a few of that in the Chat.
I saw the Chat and it's like sixty percent yes
of free will, and some people saying that it was
a God given thing as well, So there was a
faith aspect for a lot of people as well. Going
back to consciousness, todis again about the free will to
do things. I always thought of the hand analogy and
things like that in terms. So for me to do
this wiggle my fingers on my right hand and my thumb.

(24:18):
The interesting thing is that to give this demonstration of
me doing this, my brain a split second or so
before it's actually happened, has decided to do it. Even
the thought that I was going to do that as
a demonstration for you happened in my mind before it
became a physical thing, so that the brain is making
decisions before the actual conscious thought and the act comes

(24:40):
out as well, which always baffled me that there's this
lag between a decision to do something and then the
thought and actually happening.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah, yeah, the thought of I'm going to do it. Right,
everything is already put in e motion. It's nanoseconds, right,
it's very quick, but it is certainly be for you think, Okay, yeah,
I'm gonna do that. Your brain's already planned on doing it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
And that argument so another predeterminism aspect or is it
free will exactly?

Speaker 3 (25:12):
Okay? All right, all right, I want to discuss parapsychology,
but I like where this conversation is going. Determined materialistic,
determined thought processes also depressed me. There is something too

(25:37):
close to being a miracle or just just absolutely impossible.
When we talk about us and how these particles we
start off with, you know, sperm and an egg and
then suddenly we're having a discussion about chocolate shakes. That's
mind blowing to me. And to think that we are

(26:02):
given this ability just because the world of quantum figured
out a way to get this done, I don't know.
I think that there is something much more deeper and
conscious driven out there in the universe that has much
more meaning to just chemistry. What's your take.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
I'm not really sure where to take that, really, I
wasn't expecting questions at this. I know what you started it, well,
I'm no biologist or and then like that, I mean
you mentioned the hard science as earlier in relation to
all of these things as well, and what the hard
scientists think. And I've had this discussion a number of

(26:49):
times with fellow psychologists that we consider psychology the hard science.
By no means is it easy. And Parapsychology has had
the problem in the media where people will argue the
idea that it's got a replication problem, that that's one
of the major flaws of the science, and it isn't
from my experience of it. And if you look at
the literature, it's got pretty good replication when you look

(27:12):
at it when it comes to lab studies of psychicabilities.
And yet you look at more general psychology, and in
the replication crisis, when places like the American Psychological Association
in the British Psychological Society went and looked at some
of the most popular psychology studies, about thirty percent of
them seem to be replicable and the rest weren't. And

(27:36):
yet these were things that were very mundane psychological aspects
that we take as read when it comes to those findings,
and actually they're not as fixed in places we think,
and we turned to the hard sciences, as they're called,
and they're not juggling all these issues of the fact
that you're dealing with studying people and day to day
your emotions and feelings change, how the labs set up

(27:57):
the rapport that you've got with the experimental kind of
task that you're being asked to do. We like trying
to nail jelly or jello to the wall. It's really
difficult to keep human behavior in one place and contained. So,
you know, just studying psychology is one of those difficult
things of trying to get your head around how do

(28:17):
we actually do this and how do we get good
methodology and consistent results. So then you start to bring
biology and physical determinism and free will and all these
other aspects into play. We are dealing with a very
complex science when it comes to psychology, and especially lab
studies of things and psychic phenomena as well.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
It's fascinating to me one general aspect parapsychology. Even here
in the United States, it took a minute of very
hard work just to get the first university class and
to get recognition into it. It's just really weird how

(28:57):
academia doesn't want to and I don't know the reasons
for it. They have stated so many for this roadblock
to parapsychology and the science of it. But yet, and
here's the rup But yet a physicist will tell you

(29:19):
you can observe a particle and change its state just
by looking at it. Now you're gonna tell me that,
But you don't want to take parapsychology seriously. It's isn't that,
in of itself a paradox.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
I find it strange how with things like astrophysics and
things like that, that they're quite accepting of the idea,
the idea of multiverse. And I like the idea of multiverse.
But I find it strange how so accepted the idea is.
And yet for some people looking in on parapsychology, the

(29:56):
idea that people encounter apparitions and ghosts is not so acceptable.
And yet they would fall completely within the remit of multiverse.
People like Professor Bernard Carr over here, who was one
of Stephen Hawking's students, who is a vice president of
the Society for Psychical Research and the prestigious organization that
really started parapsychology in the eighteen eighties. He sees that

(30:19):
most of these phenomena that we're dealing with aren't really
going to be explained by the psychologists. They'll be explained
by the physicists, and things like multiverse will really help
us understand why people have something that seems psychic, why
people seem to have an experience that seems like life
after death. These early researchers noted that many people would
not just report apparitions of the dead, but also of

(30:39):
the living as well, So multiverse would totally kind of
come into play and say, well, maybe we're experiencing these
overlaps of different potential universes, and you're getting a brief
glimpse in your vision of someone that's still alive, but
there's somewhere else, but you're sure you've just seen them
down at the supermarket. There were nowhere there, but there
was maybe the decision to perhaps go there that day,

(31:01):
and they changed their mind and it played out and
you saw a bit of it, or it's another overlap
of another time when they could have been there. So
all of these ideas about multiversity perfectly acceptable. So it's
very strange, you know, going back to what you said
about the American university system, I've never understood why it's
looked upon so poorly. And yet the very first studies

(31:23):
of psychic phenomena were at Harvard with William McDougall, and
that was in the late nineteen teens nineteen twenties before
he then moved to become a part of the deanery
at Duke University, and that's where things started with jb
Ryan and the Wiser Ryan. He brought them in and
that started the formal parapsychology laboratory.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
And there's been a.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Master's program over the time, a couple of master's programs,
and a few universities, but you could count them on
one hand. Usually over time the most current and active
universities in the entirety of the United States that are
doing parapsychology. And yet here in the United Kingdom we've
got about a dozen universities that have a taught unit
or module within a degree program of parapsychology. Therefore you

(32:09):
can do your dissertation on an aspect of it. And
there's another dozen universities besides where you could go in
and do a PhD or another kind of doctorate, because
even though they're not running a course, there are staff
members there that could supervise a project in parapsychology because
they've got a background in it. So we're thriving here
in it, but we are trying to make a difference

(32:29):
in the United States. Working now for the California Institute
for Human Science, we've got both the master's and PhD
pathway for parapsychology, and it's covering several different disciplines as well,
positive psychology routes, noetic science, and standard psychology routes as well.

Speaker 3 (32:46):
Well.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
I've just taken on my first PhD student there as well.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Well.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
That makes sense because the UK is the most haunted
place in the world, and you guys understand these aspects
because you've had plenty of time to experience them. Over
here in the United States, we're too involved with cars.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
You know, a.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Ronkolic I used to now and then still go and
it goes Chronicles International and I go over to the
East Coast and we did some of the Haunted Lighthouse
tours and we're getting a boat and it was so
sweet doing things like that. And you go to places
and like, this place is so old, it's fifty years old.

(33:31):
The history goes way back.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
The oldest thing I have in my town is McDonald's,
you know, And that's sad, But I am. I'm going
to be over in the UK next year. I'm going
to lead a tour, the Monty Python and the Holy
Grail Tour, and we're going to go through Scotland and
go throughout all the castles and the movie sets. And yeah,
I'm very excited about that. And the other part about this, though,

(34:00):
is not only the ghost and the multiverse aspect, which
is something I've been considering more and more lately. I've
talked about it a lot on this show. I think
that there's a fundamental explanation, a very basic explanation that
ties a lot of these things together. And I don't
know what that is yet, but we're getting close. And

(34:22):
as soon as science will start to make an attempt
at understanding consciousness and its origins and where it is
and where it comes from, and some practical applications for
it and figuring out how to measure it and everything
else until we get to that point. But I think
that's one of the key components to all of this.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Oh yeah, but that's massive.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
It is massive.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
I don't know when we get to a point where
we even think we're starting to understand consciousness. We're just
starting to get further with neuroscience and looking at brain
activity and regions a bit more as to what's responsible
for what. But what creates this awareness? For all of
this is a really really big thing with this complex

(35:09):
biological system with tiny neuron firings and stuff, these little
electrical systems, and we get this and so where does
it come from? When does it really start? And where
does it go or does it just stop at the
point of death. I mean it's big, and it's I
mean bigger than our brain can comprehend.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
That's why I think there's something spiritual spiritual is the
wrong word, but something that is not chemistry or biology.
I think that there's something else external for this. Just
to contemplate, for you and I to have the conversation
about at what point did a molecule like to laugh

(35:54):
right right or cry? Or enjoy the taste of Italian food.
You know, at what point do these things come into play?
And why did Why did nature take that course in
a you know, chemistry, in a chemistry sort of way,

(36:14):
in a particle way, that these were things that were cool.
I think that it exists before that. That's just my take.
I To think that it's just chemistry, you know, little
particles combined and then consciousness arises out of that is
way too simple. It's way too simple. Why do mildcules

(36:38):
seriously decide that music was a good thing to bring
joy into life? That's that's I think that's much deeper
than chemistry.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
I think it's a lot of time, a lot of
evolution and a lot of development to those molecules, and
not just one, but just the whole being way greater
than the sum of its parts. Being those molecules, it's many, many,
many of them, and then getting to a point when
we steadily start to make discoveries. But that even takes
you back to kind of just basic things such as
who discovered that you could boil an egg and then

(37:11):
eat it? You know, who was the first person to
do that? All these different things, At what point did
that happen. This happened. Did we discover music, did we
find laughter and things like that? When did it come
into conscious thought and play for human existence? We don't
have that documentation. It clearly happened at some point because
we do it.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
But when you're going, yeah, I love that, do you
have I mean I think about this stuff all the time.
I mean, my entire waking day is thinking about all
of this, because I think it's the most profound subject
and it's the one big question mark that we have.

(37:52):
You know, it's weird. We like to think that we're
so smart, and we are, We're getting there. We're still
pretty dumb. But for me to just think about these things,
I think is crazier than the ability itself. That I'm
able to think about the micro and the macro. I

(38:13):
can think about atoms, and then I can think about
the atoms that make up this slice of pizza, and
then I can think about the atoms that make up
distant stars. That's insane to me, that's insane. I mean,
do dogs do that? You know what I mean? Do
dogs think about atoms?

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Probably not?

Speaker 3 (38:36):
Probably not, probably not. Meanwhile, there are dogs in the
world going bullshit. Man equals MC squared. We got a grip,
you know, we know what's going on. Do you have
any psychic abilities?

Speaker 1 (38:51):
No, I mean involved in psychic testing quite a lot
in the labs. That was just in the Gansfeld last Monday.
Funnily enough, I've got one of the books in front
of me. There's a self published thing, but this guy
came and visited the university. So staring at a red sky.
It's got a very faint printing on purpose, but that's

(39:12):
what it looks like when you're in the gans Felt
with the ice shields on you and you are staring
at a red light in it. But we've been doing
that since the late sixties parapsychology. It's called the noise
reduction model. So I was in that on Monday, and
then I spent a lot of my time in the
last few years with my PhD candidate Kirsty Allen, being
in floatation tanks. So most of those studies are based

(39:34):
on sort of remote viewing and precognition as well, So
there's a target at a distance, but sometimes they're also
at they are future events as well. They've not been
selected until after you've finished the trial. So I'm pretty
good at the floatation tank ones. I've got really good
hit rate scores for them. So that's all about, you know,

(39:55):
maybe practice. But the only thing I'm practicing is the procedure,
because I'm not practicing what targets that or I don't
know what they are. But I'm practicing hallucination and interpretation
to the eventual targets and trying to match them up correctly.
So you are trying to make yourself better at a
psychic task day to day. Am I psychic?

Speaker 3 (40:15):
No?

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Do I hear the dead? No, I'm a psychologist. I
don't profess any abilities. I have no more than the
next person. The next person.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
Do you talk to the ghost in your house? I
don't have any Oh you do too, Yeah, you're just
straight up in denial. You live in England.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
Well, this house was probably nineteen hundred. I've got an
old blacksmith's cottage from eighteen hundred and I always wanted it.
Every night I was inside there, I wanted something to happen. Nothing.
The house next door had stuff, which was the old
farmer's house, and my neighbor there's always told me a
strange stuff that's happened. They were even listening to me
on the radio one morning on a program that we

(40:56):
have here called Uncanny that's on BBC Radio four and
the podcast on iTunes, and I was on discussing a
case as the token skeptic, and he messaged me that
morning said that they'd seen an apparition again or the
farmer that once lived there. That freaked him out, and
he's very much a skeptic.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
So they did.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Next door in my Blacksmiths cottage joined onto it.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
Nothing really, man, my house is haunted. It's just haunted.
It's haunted. I live here alone, and so I say
that because I don't have anything to blame the events on, right,
A child, a significant other, a dog, a cat, you know,

(41:41):
when something moves or makes a noise or something happens
in here and it ain't me right, and I have
just I've chosen to just write out the experience instead
of getting freaked out or you know, bringing in media
and installing flear cameras or whatever it is. You know,

(42:04):
I haven't, I haven't done any of that, but yeah,
that it's just it's just haunted, and I just deal
with it. Have you ever seen a ghost?

Speaker 1 (42:14):
No, No, I've been to many haunted locations over the years,
sometimes formal research, sometimes for charity events where you've got
members of the public that like to ghost hunt and
seen a lot of images on people's phone when they say, oh,
you must see this, and you know, what do you
make of that? And usually it looks like paradolia. You know,

(42:35):
someone's taken a very obscure picture in a darkened location
where the camera is even struggling to see what it
is you're trying to take a picture of. And in
the distance you can see faces in the woodwork or
unusual shapes. And it's human nature when we can't see
what's going on in a familiar or even unfamiliar setting,
to pick out human forms, things that we are familiar with,

(42:57):
or a potential threat as well, which will be another
human being. So seeing things in some of these locations move.
We had a few instances where things had moved on
their own, like rocks and things like that, and when
they were picked up they were hot, which was very,
very strange. But no, I'd love to see a ghost,

(43:17):
but no, that's never happened.

Speaker 3 (43:19):
It will change your life, man, it'll change your life.
It'll change your life so much so that I'm not
going to go through every experience or anything like that.
But a few years ago after the show, I went
to the bathroom, the bathroom that's down this hall right

(43:42):
on the north heading to the north side of the house.
So I go in there, and the mirror in the
bathroom faces you. Yeah, but the door's open, and I
could see out the door down the end of the
hall where there's a double door down there that I

(44:02):
have a music studio in. This is not the music studio.
I know what you're thinking, but I have a music
room down there with drums and amps and guitars and
stuff in it in a PA system. So I'm looking
in the mirror and behind me in the double doors
that I can see in the mirror, this thing goes

(44:23):
by like this and I scream, I see it. I
watched it. I didn't see it out of the corner
of my eye. Callum, I'm looking at it and I
see it walk behind me and I fall back. I scream,

(44:44):
I go out now. This is why I'll say it'll
change your life. I don't go into that hallway now
without turning the lights on. I won't do it. I
won't do it. It's crazy. When you see it for yourself.
I went in the room, I turned on all the lights,
went in there. There's nothing in there, of course, but

(45:05):
that doesn't change the event itself. So then I have
to step back and go, what was that? What was that?

Speaker 2 (45:13):
Now?

Speaker 3 (45:13):
There wasn't anything in there? Was that the multiverse overlapping?
Did the frequencies just lock in and for a moment
there was somebody you know walking through there? When and
then we became disconnected again in the overlap? I don't know.
I don't know. The event itself was real and it
changed me fundamentally down to my core.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Did it look like a person?

Speaker 3 (45:36):
Yeah, it was ahead. It was like this manet Yeah,
man like the claws route. I don't know that. Yes,
it was no Sparatu the shadow of Nosvaratu on the wall,
but yeah, yeah, it was black. It was definite in shape.

(45:58):
I saw the head. There was something out in front.
I know I'm doing this for a fact, but it
looked like something like that walking and it went the
length of the door. I walked right past. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
How many have you owned the property for five years?
And did they warn you when buying it? Oh, it's
a little bit hole into the after.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
So this is what I did after the day after
I moved. In that first week, all kinds of stuff
was just going on. I'm not going to list it,
but it was crazy stuff being moved. I'm watching stuff move,
hearing things. And then I caught myself talking to the

(46:46):
ghost or whatever was going on that, you know, keep
doing what you're doing. I don't care. You know, I'm
not going to get out of bed. I'm not going
to do this. I'm not freaking out. But I went
around to my neighbors. Yeah, I was like, so, oh,
who lived in the house before. I'm not going to
go to my neighbors and go man a ghost. No,

(47:06):
I'm not going to do that, but I'm gonna ask
about And everybody said the same thing. And they were
a nice family. They built the house in nineteen eighty four,
and they were great. They had like five kids, four kids,
and yeah, yeah, okay, all right. I didn't push anybody
about anything freaky happened, you know, any dead bodies, any blood.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
That they didn't add when they moved out.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
It was only him, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
He was such a good gardener. But he was gardened
at night time.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Yep, yep, yep, yep. He was always moving wheelbarrows full
of turns. Yeah, but but no, I got nothing strange.
So I looked into the area itself and didn't find anything.
Nothing really strange in the history here. It's a desert.

Speaker 4 (48:02):
You know.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
I lived in the Mohave Desert, and before we built
this town in the nineteen fifties for Lockheed skunk Works
and Edwards Air Force Base are here, so they did
built all of that stuff for research and to build
you know, planes and aerospace and all of that stuff.
But before that this was a desert. So everything that

(48:25):
is here is new. You can drive out to the
desert and see what it looked like a thousand years ago.
There's nothing there, and that's where I live. There wasn't
any indigenous communities that lived here or anything like that.
So I don't know, I really don't know. But when
you see it for the first time, it's a paradigm shift.
It's really interesting.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
What about.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
The ideas. I know we mentioned the multiverse. When I
talked to ghost hunters and people that look into this stuff,
including mediums, what they think is a ghost or an apparition?
What is a full bodied apparition? Shadow figure what do
they think these things are and what is causing it?

(49:10):
What do you think causes an apparition?

Speaker 1 (49:14):
Well, the early founders of the Society of Psychical Research,
so that was formed in eighteen eighty two. The proceedings,
the proceedings that were in the middle that just lads
to these dart ones. They started in eighteen eighty two,
and that was because of the rise of spiritualism in
the late eighteen forties with the Fox sisters, and when

(49:36):
these scholars of physics and chemistry got together and decided
to create this organization to look collectively into what was
going on. Is there anything new here for science to learn,
or do we already have the answers and we're actually
fooling ourselves. They looked into apparitional cases. They did some
mass surveys of the time. They had a massive two

(49:56):
volume book called Phantasms of the Living that came out
eighteen eighty six to start to survey these kinds of
experiences people were having. And their early thoughts on apparitions
were that they had nothing really to do with survival
of death. That was the beginnings of their thoughts. Systems
that were very skeptical about them, but indeed, people do
report apparitions, so maybe they are an aspect of psychic phenomena.

(50:20):
There are a projection, a telepathic projection that we pass
on to others. If there's more than one person seeing it,
if it's just you on your own and it's subjective,
then you are projecting it out there for you to
see an experience, and it seems very real and out there.
So that was their initial thinking really, And if indeed
there's some legitimacy to what the apparition does, it cast shadows,

(50:44):
it can reflect things, it produces information that you shouldn't
know about. If there are multiple witnesses to it as well,
which we call collective cases, well, actually there's built up
over time some really good case cases and a case
for the idea that some of them do present evidence
suggestive that maybe this is an aspect of someone surviving

(51:05):
after death in some way. So that you've got to
really juggle with the most difficult task of how do
you separate it just being a psychic experience if there's
no conventional explanation we've created it, or can we separate
that and say it's not down to us, it's independent
of itself. So I was part of the Biggelow Essays.
So Robert Bigelow, the aerospace entrepreneur who owned Skinwalker Ranch.

(51:29):
A few years ago, he put out an offer for
half million dollars for the best twenty five thousand word
essay of permanent life after death, permanent survival beyond bodily death.
And you know a lot of that stuff would lean
toward deparitions. In our essay that I did with three

(51:49):
other colleagues, I had to specifically trawl through the history
books of my field and look for the best case
of hauntings that would present that, and also the best
cases of deathbed apparitions as well. So some cases seem
to present this independence of the apparition that suggests that
it's out there, it's not come from in here. But
you've got to take it on a case by case basis.

(52:11):
Is such a big problem.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
Yeah. The the winner of that essay was a friend
of mine, Jeffrey Mass. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
We co direct the parapsychology program at ci HS.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
Yes, yes, you know I'm going to say this about him.
I'm such a fan boy and I've been following him
since the eighties, right, No, I'm being very serious. His
TV show. I used to get videotapes of it back
in the eighties and and and watched it. And I've
had the opportunity to hang out with him. He's been

(52:47):
on the show a couple of times too. But one
of the smartest people I know. And one of the
reasons why that essay worked for him is because not
only does he do the research, but he has interviewed
and and worked with the absolute best and the brightest

(53:09):
out there. And for sure, if somebody was going to
put forth an essay in that regards with the NDE
Mitchell Love was you know, you know what I mean?
And I was so so happy for him. Uh when
when he won that prize. That's that's a life changing thing.
And it's just such a nice guy. The the other

(53:32):
part of this, though, is we have the ghosts, we
have the apparitions, we have these ideas and where they
may be coming from. But then there is that that
young I And is that a word? I just said it? Young?
And Youngian is a word, right? Is that in the
dictionary there's the Youngian idea of mass consciousness and influencing

(53:57):
of of others that have a causality to sing. And
then That shows you how great the brain is. That
the brain can flip around and create something for you
if you want it bad enough.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
M well, we can just sit in pure group conformity.
When you know you can convince other people within a
group that something's happening, you can have it on the
basis of simple eyewitness testimony. When you're all witnessed to
events and you start discussing it and your perception your
memory bleeds into other people's recall, they start to second
guess if you want to extend it to.

Speaker 3 (54:33):
Go right right, right, right right, is that that's totally
you can change somebody's mind, But.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
Then they will think that that is exactly what happened. Then,
so look at it. On the ghost. When someone a
group of people think they've seen a ghost, the description
then starts to bleed to other people. If you were
to separate them all, you might get a very different
description of what happened, or people saying this or nothing.
With EVP experiments, you know the moment someone goes, sh
did you hear the name Chris? Then did you Yeah,

(55:02):
I think I heard the name. You've already said it,
you've primed it, you've said what you think the random sound,
the random sound is saying, and you've just tried to
make sense out of nonsense, and you've started to then
bleed it to other people where they can't get that
out of their head. You can do some great studies
on I've seen it in masters and PhD dissertations where

(55:23):
people have looked at the psychology of EVP and the
moment you start to tell them what something says, then
they'll hear it and you can't unhear it as well,
so that group conformity can bleed and spread like wildfire.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
Now and then, what did we do with the crystal
clear EVP that is not open to interpretation?

Speaker 1 (55:44):
It's very very rare that you get that. I mean,
if you look at the original no no, no, no,
let me let me go. If you look at the
original formal studies from the nineteen fifties, unreal to real tape,
what people like Raymond Bayliss and the till Ofvonzoli were
getting with bangs, wrap, scratches and wish and stuff like that.
When you start to move forward to dr Constantine rowdover

(56:06):
and things like that, they start to get really quite
ambiguous and a lot of parapsychologists just weren't having it.
I remember when I spoke to John Randall about it,
and he was a biologist and parapsychologist. He said he
remember when Breakthrough came out, and he just read it
and through the book in the bin.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
And there is there's there's a lot of trash out
there for sure, okay. And to suggest to somebody what
they are hearing before they hear it, that's bullshit and
nobody should ever do that. That is wrong. But I
was doing a TV show. I was in the archive

(56:44):
tunnel underneath a police station here in Los Angeles. Got
a camera crew, got the whole thing, you know, sound
like you know the whole thing. We're down there with
Susan Slaughter and a production assistant, the three of us,
and the cameras are on us, and it's We're in
a tunnel where the archives are and dead quiet. I've

(57:07):
never done an EVP, not a real one, not like this.
Got the little recorder out and a question was asked,
it doesn't matter, you know, are you here, did you
commit the murder? Whatever? And we wait about fifteen seconds,
dead quiet, play it back. I swear to you, I

(57:28):
swear here's the question, did you have anything to do
with the murder? Here's the answer. Get a chocolate shake,
Jimmy Church loves them. I was like, what that What
I heard it? You know? And I was like, I'm
paraphrasing obviously here, but I'm listening. I'm like, how how how?

(57:51):
I just wasn't on TV? Callum, I'm standing there, and
I wow, I've done a few others, you know, and
I've got friends that are pretty good at it and stuff,
but that was the one time where it happened to
me and it was loud and crystal clear. I couldn't

(58:11):
believe it. I could not believe it. I could not believe.
I could barely drive home after that.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
It was get a chocolate bake.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was disturbing. Now, what about
We've got two minutes left before the break, and then
we'll pick this up when we come back. Phone Calls
from the Dead. Now, hold the phone. You've never seen
a ghost, right, but you've never seen a ghost. You're

(58:39):
working at it. I get that, but you wrote a
book called Phone Calls from the Dead. What's going on there?
And then we'll we'll do the setup now and we'll
pick it up when we come back.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
Well, it's been stuck with me since I was an undergraduate.
So I read the original book by Rogan Bayless when
I was an undergraduate, and it came out in nineteen
seventy nine, but I didn't think of anything of it.
I got the book, saw the titan, just threw it
on a pile of other books to read. But it
was close to that time, just by pure coincidence, that
a news post came up about a train collision and

(59:14):
someone allegedly calling their family, who they later discovered was
dead at the time, and the news outlets widely published
it as a phone call from the dead. So I thought, well,
Rogo and Balist, their only collaboration really on a book
was that one. So I've been reading their other independent
books and I thought they were great. So I finally
picked it up, read it cover to cover, and couldn't

(59:35):
believe that people were reporting full blown conversations. So I
wanted to look into more about what that was about,
and had anyone else published on it and her parapsychology
actually given any attention whatsoever besides that book, So that's
where it all started.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
What do you make of that? Is it. We've got
thirty seconds, you can give me the short answer. Does
Do spirits have the ability to affect electronics? And they
know this?

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
My opinion would be known?

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Then how would an okay, how would a phone call
from the dead occur?

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
That there are so many conventional explanations that could be
at play, and it's even harder now with the state
that we're in, with so much technology and ability to
fraudulently create these or for errors to occur. But they're
more fascinating I think when you go back to just
the straight landline, which is what a lot of these
were occurring on, and so are there any misperceptions going on?

(01:00:43):
And we can discuss after the break what kinds of
cases would actually be really of interest compared to ones
that are mundane and maybe conventional. What scene paranormal?

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Callum stay right there, I guess Callum Cooper live from
the UK. I mean it was Jimmy Church tonight. I'm
talking about parapsychology. He is a professor. We'll be right
back after this show break. Olum, stay right there. I'm here,
Jimmy Church, stay with us. Subscribe to our YouTube channel

(01:01:37):
to get your alerts and access to over two thousand videos.
Click that subscribe button right now go to Jimmy Churchradio
dot com and get the Fade to Black Official podcast,
two thousand episodes, all of them commercial free for just
two dollars a month. I am hosting, speaking, and presenting

(01:02:01):
once again for the Conscious Life Expo, the largest conference
of its type in the world, February twentieth through the
twenty third, twenty twenty six at the lax Hilton Speakers
event and schedule easy. Just visit Consciouslifeexpo dot com. I

(01:02:22):
will be hosting and speaking at the Sedona Ascension Retreat
March twentieth through the twenty second, twenty twenty six in Sedona, Arizona.
An amazing list of speakers and its beautiful Sedona. Come
and hang out with us and just go to Sedona
Ascensionretreats dot com. I'm heading back to the Midwest for

(01:02:46):
the Contact Modalities Expo May first through the third, twenty
twenty six in Delavan, Wisconsin at the Lake Resort. It
is beautiful. This is a great conference right in the
heart of the Midwest where I'm from. I'll see you there.
Just go to Contactmodalities Expo. That's XPO dot com. I

(01:03:09):
will be hosting and presenting once again at Contact in
the Desert that's May twenty eight through June first, twenty
twenty six, the largest UFO conference in the world. Come
and hang out with us June twenty third through July first.
Tickets and everything else that you need is at Contactintheedeesert
dot com. Want to change your life, Want that paradigm shift,

(01:03:35):
Then visit Peru with Brian Forrester and myself for the
INCA Celebration of the Sun June twenty third through July first,
twenty twenty six of full ten days of visiting the country,
all of the amazing sites and of course the celebration
of the Winter Solstice. It's all simple to do. Go
to Hidden incatours dot com. Join us for the Monty

(01:04:01):
Python Scotland Tour August first through the ninth, twenty twenty six.
This is a once in a lifetime event where you
get to go to the castles from Monty Python and
the Holy Grail August first through the ninth, twenty twenty six.
Just visit Hayleyaamsey dot com. Watch Into the Vortex on

(01:04:23):
Guy at TV. It's fade to black for the screen
simple to do. Go to Guya dot com search Jimmy
Church or click on the link below. Follow Fade to
Black on Twitter at Jay Church Radio. Get all of
the show updates every single day. It's it's now called X.

(01:04:44):
But who cares? Go to Jimmy Churchradio dot com and
become a fade or not get a membership. That's right.
Everything is commercial free. You have access to downloads and
you get to call yourself fade or not. Jimmy Church
Guy TV. Fade to Black here at Matchupchu with Brian

(01:05:07):
Forrester and Hidden INCA tours. Amazing tour so far, Brian,
but we're here to announce what we're gonna do next
year in twenty twenty six. What's going on?

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
Okay, November twenty twenty six, We're going to have our
major tour of Peru and Bolivia, either a pre or
post tour of Perakas and Nasca on the coast, and
then after that six days in.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
Easter Island bucket list Easter Island. Come join Brian and
Iroan his amazing team here at Hidden Incotours four Peru,
Bolivia and Easter Island. Signing out, Say goodbye Brian, Bye
Gang Yeah. River Moon Coffee, makers of the Fade to

(01:05:55):
Black Blend, truly the best coffee on planet Earth. Just
visit Rivermoonwellness dot Com or their Amazon story. It's all
simple to do. You can check out the Fade to
Black Blend, the Game Changer Blend, or any of their
Black Moon Wellness products. It's the only coffee I drink.
It is the best and it's doc again Rivermoonwellness dot Com.

(01:06:42):
Welcome back, Fade to Black. I am your host Streamy Church. Tonight.
Callum Cooper is with us Professor Callum Cooper. He is
a professor parapsychology, coming too his life from the UK
and right before the break we were talking about phone
calls from the dead. Now, Callum, when we use something

(01:07:03):
as specific as phone calls from the dead and you
bring up land lines, I just feel that when you're
on the other side, for some reason, at the quantum level,
spirits and whatever they may be it could be from
the multiverse have figured out a way to communicate and

(01:07:27):
it falls through electronics. I don't think it's I don't
think it's that big of a deal to them.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
Well, there's some interesting stuff in the nineteen teens and
nineteen twenties, there was a book in Brazil that translates
to Voices from Beyond by telephone, and the person who
wrote it was Oscar de Argonau, and that was a
medium who believed that their spirit communication came through the
actual telephone, and so much so that they had ringing

(01:07:56):
and then they would pick it up and their mediumship
came through. These voices are allegedly manipulating the electrical system
and producing recognized speech. So this really was more so
the medium of the telephone than of the human being.
But there are loads of people of that time as
well trying to build telephones where they said, it's got
such delicate instrumentation that I believe it will give the

(01:08:19):
dead a chance to manipulate it and make contact with
a living. So these thoughts of a crossover or are
sort of a thinness between the veil to be able
to actually make contact was all very much kind of
instilled in this idea of building these telephones, and even
Thomas Edison jumping on this bandwagon as well, saying that
he was going to build such a device and have

(01:08:40):
delicate instrumentation involved in it as well. So these theories
are better about and even for multiverse and what Rogo
and Bailis call their paraphysical theory of voices just emanating
from the air like in a seance room, but directing
themselves through the telephone.

Speaker 3 (01:08:57):
I okay, the idea behind a disembodied voice. All right,
so let's break that down a bit. For me, I
was a complete skeptic, you know, watching and now I'm
fully woo. Don't get me wrong, there's something going on.

(01:09:18):
But you know, you watch this stuff on TV and
they're like, ah, you know, but it happened to me.
And the first time. I've had it a few times,
but the first time that had happened. And I'm in
a room full of people and we all hear it.

(01:09:39):
This is also on a TV show. I got cameras,
I've got the sound guy, you know, I've got all
these people here, Tony Rathman and his wife Shari, great
researcher sitting in front of me. I've got Susan Slaughter
on the other side of the room. We had about
ten people in there. We all heard it and we
look at his I gotta tell you, and it wasn't

(01:10:03):
a word. It was a hum hmm, right, Okay, sounded
just like that. It was a British hum. By the way,
I've told everybody, I said, what it sound like, sounded British.
How does a hum sound British? I don't know, but
what I heard was a British hum hm. And then
about it was about six months ago here in the studio.

(01:10:27):
And this goes back right to everything that you're discussing.
Right now, I end the show and this room here
that the studio is in is completely soundproofed, right, that
sound deadening, walls, floor, all the wa the ceilings treated right.
So when I take off my headphones at the end

(01:10:47):
of the show, it's a vacuum in here, you know
what I mean? It's quiet from behind in front of me.
Are these monitors from behind the monitor on this side,
I mean cameras with this help from over here? Right,
let's see with this hope? No, okay? So from over here,

(01:11:10):
a creek happened, like a door or like a step
when you step on a creaky step or a rocking chair,
you know, a creek. And it was loud, and I
was like, what creaked? And I get up and I
walk around to the back of my set up here

(01:11:32):
and there's nothing there I'm moving stuff, nothing's creaked, and
I have to sit back and go, Okay, that is anomalous,
that that is a phenomenon right there, That whatever did
that caused the sound pressure waves to move for me

(01:11:54):
to hear it in my ear without anything physical causing it.
That bizarre to me. And when you look at the
world of parapsychology analyzing this and you're trying to break
this down that part disembodied voices and things that just
appear out of the ether without anything there to create

(01:12:14):
the sound. That that's real, that millions of people have
experienced this, not why, and it's not like some psychosis,
you know, how do you break that down?

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
Well, goodness, I mean go back to the early seanswers
and that kind of stuff's happening all the time, and
then you transfer it through to the telephone stuff. And
what my interest was more so interpretation. This guy's in
a train crash in California and his family start getting
repeated calls on their mobile phone from him, and when

(01:12:47):
the answer is just static and when they call back,
there's nothing there. And at three point thirteen in the morning,
the call stop. At the point they find his body
in the wreckage and they know there's a live kind
of thing trying to find him. But the media then
pushes this as a phone from the dead. Well, that's
not a sound of anything, that's just how the mobile
phone directing. You've interpreted that, So a full on voice,
a conversation coming from somewhere and coming down the telephone,

(01:13:11):
when you know at the other end the person is dead,
so where's this coming from? Or when the person can't
even be near the phone at the time. Those are
also weird ones as well, I mean, coming from out
of the air. This is just the only way Rogo
and Balist could start to put explanations to some of
those instances that seemingly didn't have one. But it's very
strange when you get ones from people that are living

(01:13:33):
as well. So they mentioned it in their original one,
And then when I took this forward and did a
study of a further fifty cases, I mentioned some of
these ones from the living as well. So Rogo's own
experience went like this. It was ten o'clock on a
bright Thursday morning, and I thought about making a call
to a colleague of mine at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute.

(01:13:54):
Although I thought about making that call and never actually did.
But by four o'clock that afternoon I got the shock
of my life when a call came in from the
very department of the psychologist I had thought about calling.
It was their research assistant and he said he was
answering my message. When asked what in blazes he was
talking about, he said, at ten o'clock that morning, a
call had come into them from me. The caller had

(01:14:15):
left my name, my number, and asked that the call
be returned. He had the intention to call, but changes
his mind, and then seemingly the call still takes place
for someone else. Where's that voice coming from? What is
actually calling the other phone? If indeed he's not just
forgotten that he did make the call and he didn't
have the conversation he'd just left his details, really really strange.

(01:14:38):
I mean that there's so many other strange things in
the early suns rooms besides just voices coming out of nowhere.
But with these telephone calls, it's very fascinating when you've
actually got a report of a conversation someone has picked up,
they've interacted with another voice, and then only afterwards did
they realize that the person was dead. Long before the
call take place, So why did it happen or that

(01:14:58):
person was nowhere near it telephone?

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
Was it Roga or Bayless that made that phone call?

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
That one was to do with Rogo?

Speaker 3 (01:15:07):
Okay, so what do you think? Are you looking at
this as a pragmatic I'm going to use the word skeptical,
don't take that the wrong way. Are you looking at
it like that, looking for reasonable, mundane explanation or are
you leaning into the woo woo.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
Oh no, completely conventional explanation. I think some of the
biggest compliments I got on the book was it should
have been called a skeptics gun and it is that
that's my job. If I worked in nursing, I'd be
a skeptic of nursing. If I worked in geography, I'd
be a skeptic of geography. Everyone in every discipline and
every science should be a good critical thinker to make
sure that the methods they're going through are the best

(01:15:49):
they can be, and the people you're dealing with are
being dealt with in the best possible way, and your outcomes,
your data, whatever it may be, are understood and interpreted
in the best and fairest possible ways. And you're looking
for all the interpretations and solutions of things that could
lead you to have a false understanding of the outcome
or a misperception. You don't want that. You don't want errors,
you don't want fraud, you don't want cheating. You want good,

(01:16:11):
pure data that you know you put barriers in place
to stop any errors getting through.

Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
Paranormal is the paranormal though errors in the data, you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:23):
Could get anomalous artifacts. Though in every branch of science,
I mean every branch of science is dealing with certain
aspects of anomalies to then take the next step and
discover the process. It's interesting that you say it like
that because Joseph Banks Ryan really coined the term ESP
extrasensory perception in his book in nineteen thirty four, which

(01:16:44):
was a summary of all the studies they've done at
Duke University on the Xena cards. So the star of
the crafts the wave, you line the circle the square
if it broughten up here with me, I'm actually something
of it. But that book was pioneering that titleple have
used ESP ever since. But Chuck Hunton, another parapsychologist, later
on he said, you know, we can look at this

(01:17:07):
in another way errors someplace. Do we really actually have ESP,
or is it something that looks like ESP, looks like
a phone call from the dead or whatever else. But
actually we've not spotted that there is an error some
place that is responsible for why we think we're having
a strange experience.

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
It's not ESP.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
Is an error someplace, So we have to try and
decipher one from the other. That's why good critical thinking
comes into play, healthy skepticism and applications of things like
the Ockham's raiser. So this idea that we've got this
onion with multiple layers to an onion as we know
when we cut through it, But we don't just want
the layers coming off. We want to be more definite

(01:17:47):
than that. We want a razor blade and we want
to take raizor thin slices off and go through the
layers and the least amount of jumps logical steps you
take are usually the most likeliest eventual explanation for what
you're dealing with. Then going through several layers to then
say it must be the dead trying to contact us,
because that's making a number of jumps where we don't

(01:18:08):
have a conventional mechanism for that or explanation. So there
must be something very close by that has a conventional
explanation and we don't need to go through many layers.

Speaker 3 (01:18:18):
The ocams raiser answer to that, the most simplest explanation,
the most mundane, simplest explanation, it's the frigging goes talking
to us from another parallel reality. That's the simplest jumping
into It could be this, it could be that it's physical,

(01:18:39):
it's your imagination, whatever it may be that's making it
difficult those that's not an Ocham's razor type of deduction.
An OCAM's razor deduction in this is it could be
the multiverse, it could be a parallel dimension, something overlapping,
something very very very basic, and something very simple, and

(01:19:04):
it certainly falls under the definition of paranormal for me.
That's the comfort that's the comfort zone for me. Anything
else that means that everybody that has these experiences, it
has some kind of psychosis. They're manifesting this themselves. It's
their imagination, it's the cross between wires in a in

(01:19:26):
a telephone network, whatever it may be. That's that's way
too complicated. The way to way the.

Speaker 1 (01:19:34):
Point that you raise is I raised this as well,
saying that does and there are papers on this. Does
OCAM's rasor apply to where we're disciplined? Is it useful
or can it be misused?

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
And when we do have instance as a misuse of
the Ocham's raiser And in this instance, you know, what
if the first jump, that first lay is it's telepathy, Well,
that would be perfectly acceptable if we had a working
mechanism for it, right, But in the state of play,
because we don't, for that or survival of death, then
the explanation is many layers down then, compared to what

(01:20:07):
we do know. And the principle is to take the
steps of what we do know. You can't just shave
through and say it's a ghost or it is telepathy
when we don't have a working mechanism. But my argument
is we're failing the system of Ockham's razor if indeed
it does turn out to be that when we discover
a mechanism for it, it's that conundrum we just don't

(01:20:27):
know at the moment, so it's not acceptable.

Speaker 3 (01:20:29):
But what if, yeah, what if? What if I always
mentioned this on every show and it needs to be
drilled down and I wanted to get away from us.
Sean Carroll is one of my favorite physicists. He's amazing,
but man, sometimes he rubs me the wrong way. Right,

(01:20:51):
But his work is good. His work is good. But
he said last year in an Ama that he does
every month he the question always comes up, always does Okay,
so what is consciousness? So his answer was, I don't
have the time to think about something that I can't see.

(01:21:16):
It's a waste of time. I don't even think about it.
And that's the problem that we have. Isn't it right?
They don't. They can't be measured, they can't throw it
in a lab. There is a way. Therefore, it's not
worth discussing. And it could be one little thing that

(01:21:37):
explains all of this, and we haven't gotten there yet.

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
I think another thing with parapsychology is people have thought
about it in a career sense or getting involved. How
do I make money from that? You're talking about non
material things, you know, people reading each other's minds or ghosts,
you know, where does what's the point in even getting
involved in that? So I can see where he's coming
from with that. Can I just say I've seen in

(01:22:02):
the chat someone has asked, and my apologies. You asked
me right at the start the definition of parapsychology, but
I didn't then really define what it looks into or
what they are. So I'll give everyone a basic rundown
because I've seen what is telepathy and of course, so right,
parapsychology looks at three different strands of things. One is ESP,
which I've just mentioned, and that breaks down into three.

(01:22:23):
That's telepathy, a mind to mind interaction, clairvoyance and alleged
ability to see information at a distance or precognition, so
a feeling or a distinct vision of something before it happens.
Then we have PK. Psychokinesis or telekinesis, the ability to
influence people, systems, the environment via the power of the

(01:22:47):
mind alone. So that's the mind reaching out and doing things,
whereas with ESP everything is about things coming to us
another person's thoughts, information at a distance, something before it happens,
but PK forced itself out. The other stuff comes in
allegedly the way it plays out. And then the third
strand is survival or survival hypothesis. That's anything that suggests

(01:23:09):
survival of awareness or the mind out of the body
or beyond permanent bodily death. So we'd start with outer
body experiences, feeling that you've detached from your body and
you're above yourself, or traveling to a near death experience
where you get near to death, some sort of threat
happens and you feel like you've seen the tunnel of light,
or you're separated from your body, and then you've returned

(01:23:29):
because someone's revived you or you naturally came around through
to then mediumship apparitions, reincarnation cases, and children. We've mentioned
EVP haunting type phenomena Paultergeiss. We could go on. So ESP,
PK and survival. That's what parapsychology looks at, and that's
the definition of all of them.

Speaker 3 (01:23:48):
Have you witnessed PK in action?

Speaker 1 (01:23:55):
So in a few different ways. So when I used
to go along quite a lot to allegedly haunted locations,
I was with some police officers one time when we
were in an old cotton mill and they were throwing
rocks out at pretty much this time in the morning.
It's coming up to four point thirty here, and they're
throwing rocks out and there's just one door into this

(01:24:17):
big room that would have housed loads of looms making
fabric many years ago, going back and forth, and they
were just commenting out into the dark, and then something
just went bang and then tap tap tapp, ting tingting
over the metal plate that filled a gap in the floor,
and there's all wooden floor besides that, and it just
rolled straight up to our feet and we just looked
at it and looked at each other and picked it up,

(01:24:38):
and it was so hot. It was just bizarre. It's
just another piece of rubble. There was no radiators in there,
there was no heating, just very very strange. But then
I think the most fascinating PK, even though it might
seem mundane to others, was I was in the Rhine
Research Center in Durham, North Carolina.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
I just had the director from Ryan Show a couple
of weeks. John. Yeah. John, he's amazing. He's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:25:03):
Yeah, I love John. And I was with John. That's
who I was with. And Alice Tanis Kelly. So she's
one of the nieces of doctor Alex Tannas, who was
a psychic and psychologist who claimed to go out of
body at will, could project light from his eyes, spoke
to the dead, and so anyway, Alice and John are

(01:25:25):
chatting over here, and John set me up with one
of these little kind of cog wheels velocity meter, and
they've been called other things as well, but it's got
no nine volt battery in it, and all that does
anyway is just blinking led when revolutions are occurring occurring,
and it's in a bell jar, and he said, just

(01:25:45):
think about it. Put your hands near the jar like this,
and just think about turning the cogwheel. And as I
start to listen into the conversation, because not much is happening,
so I'm half paying attention to them, I'm half paying
attention to the cog whee. I can start to see
the needles going through ever so slightly, just millimy to
by millimy to just going through. And John says, is

(01:26:07):
it moving yet? And I said, yeah, like it's it's
emotion now. He said, but what are you doing? What
are you thinking? I said, well, I was initially going,
come on, turn you know that kind just really trying
to strain it and that's not happening. And I said,
it's actually I'm half paying attention to you, half paying
attention to this. And he said, there we go, we've
got that nice sort of altered state happening where you

(01:26:29):
know you're not really paying attention much, you're just lost
in the flow of what's going on. And that's also
what we conformed to at the University of Northampton most
of our studies in the lab, we've really favored the
idea that SI is conducive to altered states of consciousness.
I was just washing the pots when I was running
an errand and driving the car, when all of a sudden,

(01:26:51):
I was watching my favorite TV show and I looked
up and suddenly saw it's always I was doing X
when why happened?

Speaker 3 (01:26:58):
Right right?

Speaker 1 (01:27:00):
And you're usually lost in the flow of a routine,
something mundane, something that you enjoy doing, and just time passes.
You're not conscious accurately of how much time is gone
because you're lost in the motion of things you typically do,
especially when it comes to watching the TV and things
like that, and then something happens. So that's what we
would call flow. So a psychologist called malay Chic Sempley

(01:27:23):
High talked about flow being a state of happiness, contentment,
and time flies when you're having fun. But there's so
many studies over time with parapsychology to show that alter
states are psycho injuice of going to sleep and waking up,
those periods between that the hypnogogic going in and the
hypnopompic coming out. Certainly when we're dreaming, we have strange
experiences that seem to be psychic, you know, where we

(01:27:45):
come back with accurate information about the future or talking
to the dead. Hypnotic induction could help. Psychedelics could help.
The lab techniques that we've got could help. So all
of these things' if it's hypnotic, if it's getting us
lost in the moment of things, that's when we tend
to day to day's circumstances, report things, and then in

(01:28:07):
the lab, if we can copy that in some way,
it seems to produce very successful results.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
I'm gonna have Julia Mossbridge on the show on Thursday,
and you know her work and her work with Dean
Raiden and getting into these subjects. One of the fascinating
aspects of their research and what they have concluded is
that we are able to through consciousness, affect particles at

(01:28:40):
the quantum level, and that effect of those particles is very, very,
very very slight, but there's a lot of particles, right,
and so when you affect I was going to say
a bad word, a big amount of these particles at
a very slight amount, But in the end it's a

(01:29:03):
big change, it's a big activation in something. And I
think that there is more to look at in this research.
I know that Ryan is looking into this, and John
and and what they're doing up in ions, but I
think that's a very important part of this that we

(01:29:23):
can't see these particles move, but we can see the
effects of what is ultimately happening to these particles on
the back end. Do you think that that is ultimately
what it is we're affecting at the quantum level. We
can't see it. We can only see the results of it. Maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:29:43):
I mean, I'm not involved in the kinds of you know,
that kind of level of research that they're doing looking
at things at the quantum level. John has told me
so much about it. I mean, we're dealing with kind
of face value psychology at the University of Northampton where
I've been involved in labsterdi is you know, here's the
guns fell. We want to get your relaxed. There's going
to be future video clips you're going to watch, but

(01:30:04):
everything that you experience in the Gansfeld, you know, we
want to know everything you see or hear and speak
about and then we'll see if it relates to these
targets in the future. So you've said this, what's happening next?
And maybe on you know that micro level loads of
things are happening inside the body and inside the brain.
Of course they are right, but loads of very natural
things are happening as well for you to ultimately come

(01:30:27):
out with a menation and all these things, loads of
little things are happening inside the body, and therefore a
loads of little things happening if SI is real, to
then help you get information about a future event that's
reaching out beyond your body, and that is you know,
that takes us back again to hyperspatial models and all
sorts of ideas, this idea of there being a PSI

(01:30:48):
field that something is reaching out, or morphic fields that
biology will propose that information is reaching out and obtaining
what we need. We could go in so many different
directions about theories of SI. They just don't help us
very much until we understand more about what's going on
in here. First, that the whole principle of when we
started the flotation tanks was because John Lilly, who pioneered

(01:31:11):
them back in the nineteen fifties. In nineteen sixty nine,
he gave a guest dinner speech to the Parapsychological Association
in New York City and he said, guys, get two
tanks and send one person in one with some images
that they've been looking at, and put another in another
and see if they'll pick up on what the first
person's thinking about. And so that whole principle is based

(01:31:34):
on is it all in here when we're in the
tanks and we have hallucinations or is it out there?
And if it's out there, then you'll be able to
show through these demonstrations that someone else is picking up
on it, or you're getting accurate information beyond what chance expects.
When you've got four possible targets, let's say, and one
of them's picked to be the target, do you beat
that twenty five percent chance level? With things like the

(01:31:56):
Gansfeld and doing that, studies have shown outcomes of thirty
eight forty five percent outcomes, which is incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:32:03):
It's insane. Yeah, I've explained to the audience what the Gansfield.

Speaker 1 (01:32:09):
Is so yeah, so Gansfeld again, it's German for whole field.
And that's the image on this book we mentioned earlier.
It's probably not the best, but this is great with
the ping kong balls over the eyes or ice shields.
This is a book called Staring at a Red Sky
by Andrew Endersby who got interested in parapsychology and sort

(01:32:31):
of just wrote up his experiences in this self published book.
And the last part is he came to the University
of Northampton and tried it out. So this started in
the nineteen sixties as one of many century deprivation experiments
in psychology. There was a lot of behavioral psychology for time,
and people were fascinated with what happens to humans when
they're left in darkened conditions or caves without light sources

(01:32:55):
or clocks. What does happen to your conscious awareness? By
the mid nineteen seventy two, different sets of parapsychologists picked
up the guns Feld or the noise reduction model as
it's called, and applied it to psychic testing. So while
you're in that and we've got targets for you somewhere,
can you accurately come out with information that marries up
to those targets. Then an independent judge can look at

(01:33:17):
what you've said, look at the targets, and pick out
the right target against decoys. So the guns feld, you've
got those I shields on, you've got a red light
beaming down, you've got headphones on much like the ones
that you're wearing, and you're hearing induction, someone telling you
to stretch your arms and your legs for ten minutes
and telling you to hold it now, let go feel relaxed,

(01:33:39):
feel completely relaxed, over and over and then forty minutes
of pink noise, so white noise with a reduced hiss,
and that's just constantly playing in your ears. And as
it does, you start to hear conversations noises of where
you think you are. You know, if you think you've
traveled to a certain location or an event, images in
your mind start to come to the fore onto the

(01:34:00):
pink haze that you see on the ping pong balls.
And so the idea is all these internal thoughts while
you're in centory isolation, do they project themselves forward and
are they accurate to whatever it is you're meant to
be focusing on. And usually you're doing this inside a
perception lab, so an electromagnetically shielded chamber that soundproof and
darkened conditions as well. So all that's in there is

(01:34:22):
the red light. So that's the Gansfeld I need to say,
without kind of giving it the name, but some of
you may have seen if you watch ghost hunting shows,
that they've been using on there but calling it something else.
I got invited to like a general ghost hunting conference
recently and they'll mentioned it. It was annoying me so
much because it was a complete monkey see monkey deal.

(01:34:42):
I've seen parapsychologists do it. Let's do this and rebrand it.

Speaker 3 (01:34:46):
It's are you talking about the method? No, okay, so
so no no, no, no, no, no, no okay. So
I haven't I haven't really read I totally I get
where you're coming from. I haven't done it. I have

(01:35:08):
been I haven't been on the headphone end of it,
but I have. I've done this for television. I have
been the question asker in that. What I have seen
is the white faces of the people that take off
those headphones and the dreadful scenario that they're put through.

(01:35:33):
I can't imagine doing you know what I mean being
this person with that, because there I don't know, I
don't know, I don't know I've had that.

Speaker 1 (01:35:46):
I did this the other monday. It took me forty
five minutes of paperwork before I even started going into it,
being led through it by my mental professor, Chris Rowe, right,
and we've been doing it for years, and the amount
of ethics and risk assessment going and he is a
senior psychologist, I'm a senior psychologist. And then there's follow
up paperwork afterwards as well. In these shows, where's the psychologist,

(01:36:08):
where's the psychotherapist?

Speaker 3 (01:36:10):
There's nobody no I've done these shows. We go straight in,
headphones on, stuff gets turned up, the white noise is
coming in, and I've bad.

Speaker 1 (01:36:23):
It's a complete the fact that social media started taking
it on. And then what's it achieving? What's the study rationale?
What's our controls? Who's judging the mentations on the outcome?
How are we looking after the person going in? Where's
the follow up with them coming out? Do we know
the mental health conditions of this person? Have we looked
into the ethics of the adverse consequence as it could cause?

(01:36:43):
Where are you publishing this? Who's going to be reviewed.

Speaker 3 (01:36:45):
No one.

Speaker 1 (01:36:46):
The answer to all those questions is not, there's nothing.
It's just for show on TV. And it's really annoying
that something that is so specific to a lab study
and lab study alone is taken into something that is
so beautiful and the important thing. If it's a haunted location,
it's the location you should be concerned about. This is

(01:37:08):
where people have made claims and it could be new,
it could be old, but it's in an environment you've
got to immerse yourself in to understand why people had
experience in the first place. Why on earth would you
want to put yourself into sensory deprivation when that's got
nothing to do with the location. And it doesn't matter
about what people say about well, we've got it linked
up to a broken radio nonsense. I've got headphones, I've

(01:37:32):
got headphones on.

Speaker 3 (01:37:33):
I heard this.

Speaker 1 (01:37:33):
It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. It is completely irrelevant and
above all else, unethical. No one's controlling it. It's not
got any goal. I called it the other day a
hose that no one's holding onto.

Speaker 3 (01:37:47):
It is like, you bring up such a great point,
which which is what I was mentioning.

Speaker 1 (01:37:55):
Why and hauntings the gam cell.

Speaker 3 (01:37:58):
Ye. But when when somebody goes through one of those
sessions and after fifteen minutes or a half hour whatever,
and they take those headphones off, they look like they
just went through a nightmare, so surprised. It's you know,
there's no way I would ever do it. I just

(01:38:19):
I no, No, there's.

Speaker 1 (01:38:22):
Isn't it not in some of those locations where they
insist on having the lights out, that you know, someone's
just sat in the dark anyway, taking in the environment.
I remember someone on social media randomly asking me, you know,
I'm not I do go on haunting investigations, but I'm
not the typical ghost into like you know, parapsychologists like
Lloyd Ourback and others that have really dedicated themselves to that.

(01:38:44):
It did always interest me, but they said, oh, you know,
can you help me?

Speaker 3 (01:38:48):
What's wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:38:49):
What's the best night vision camera to use? What do
you want to use it for?

Speaker 2 (01:38:53):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:38:54):
Well, this pub they've said that, you know, all these
these glasses at a time of sliding off the bar
and smashing that's fantastic if you interviewed the witnesses. Oh yeah,
I'm going to do that. But which are these cameras.
I said, I'm still not sure why you need night vision.
You know, what's this for? Well, I'm going to go along.
I'm going to investigate. Okay, So when are people reporting
these glasses smashing? Oh, about three or four o'clock in

(01:39:15):
the afternoon, when the bar's full of people, right, okay,
So once you go back to the conditions in which
it's reported and sit and observe, is anyone reporting that
at three or four in the morning? Oh no, why
do you want night vision?

Speaker 3 (01:39:27):
Then?

Speaker 1 (01:39:27):
Why are you going to go to the exact opposite
of the conditions. Think of it in a crime scene.
If someone has said to the police officers, this guy
keeps ropping the store at two in the afternoon, All right,
Well we'll turn up at two in the morning when
it's shut, and we'll see if anyone comes and rubs
the store. You've just been told. When consistently something is

(01:39:48):
happening and you want to go and do the exact opposite,
what for effect? You know, ghost hunting can be really
boring where actually in full daylight conditions early in the
morning or late in the afternoon, that's when people are
reporting things. And it's been so well known to be
those typically time puodes that it worked itself into early poetry.
When I was walking down the stairs, I met a

(01:40:08):
man who wasn't there, who wasn't there again today I
wish that man would go away. But when I returned
home at three, that man was waiting there for me.
And when I looked about the hall, I couldn't see
him there at all. It's always early mornings and late
afternoons and things like that when people have reported things.
People are typically asleep at night, so they're not going
to be reporting all kinds of things about the home.

(01:40:29):
The most you'll get are reports of waking up and
seeing an apparition at the end of the bed, which
is something that's interesting, So sleep in that room. If
that's what people are reporting, replicate what they've done. But
most of it are apparitions during daylight hours. So some
of that as well. Everything from the Gamsfeld used in this,
which is very recent and it's silly branding, which is

(01:40:52):
very irritating and again very frustrating for the psychologists and
people spending a lot of time with the paperwork and
the ethics to do these things to see it just
done without any guidance PROCEIDUREUS safeguardings. I was on a
show called Paranormal Captured where they started doing it, and
as we did the recording, I was watching footage of

(01:41:12):
the fact that they had done it, and they wanted
me to comment, and I said, can we stop filming
for a bit? And I explained to the producers why
that shouldn't be in the show, and I said, I
really don't want to comment on that because for X,
Y and Z, and the solution to that was when
I saw the final cut that segment of the show
didn't include. Of course, of course showed it anyway, but

(01:41:33):
this is really really not good.

Speaker 3 (01:41:36):
So do you know who Graham Bonnet is? Are you
a rock and roll guy?

Speaker 1 (01:41:44):
And I have for Ozzie Osbourne's kind of my okay.

Speaker 3 (01:41:47):
So gram Bonnett, then you know who Grand Bonnet is.
Grand Bonnett was the singer for a British band called
Rainbow that that was the band for Richie Blackmore after
Deep Purple broke up, so he starts his band Rainbow
and his first singer was Ronnie James Dio. Right, you

(01:42:10):
just brought up Ozzy Osbourne. Okay, So when Ronnie left
the band. They bring in Graham Bonnet Okay. So Graham
gets the gig, records the album and they're getting ready
to play that cat Nottingham, that that big outdoor festival,
you know whatever, three hundred thousand people. And right before

(01:42:35):
the gig, he's at his flat in London at night
and he sees in the mirror on the back half
of the house somebody sitting in the rocking chair in
his living room in the front of the house always
a rocking check. Right. Well, this is Graham Bonnet Man

(01:42:55):
and he's one of the greatest singers ever. And so
he's on fade to Black. He's a friend of mine,
but he's on faded black and he tells us this
story and this is what happened in London. He sees
the feet and the rocking chair. So he turns around
and he walks into the living room and it's James Dean, okay,

(01:43:16):
sitting in the rocking chair with his short hair. It's
James Dean, and he talks to him, has a conversation
and he wakes up in the morning. James Dean is gone,
by the way, and he goes to he had long hair.
He goes to the barber, gets his hair cut like

(01:43:41):
James Dean, and that's why Grand Bonnet has short hair.
So he had these long locks, right, and he cut
his hair off like James Dean, wears his suit and
shows up at Nottingham that and nobody in the band
had seen him with short hair, and they're coming out
to do this show and Black Mortal lost his mind.
But the point is he cut his hair off because

(01:44:04):
of the conversation that he had in his flat with
the ghost of James Dean. And this is one of
the most rational, pragmatic people that I know, great musician,
one of the best voices on planet Earth. But that's
his story and it's never changed. And now how do
you pragmatically explain that one away?

Speaker 1 (01:44:27):
There's a few like that I wrote for We've got
a magazine here called The Fourteen Times. I also subscribed
to it. I've got a full set there of the
American Fate magazine that started nineteen fourteen. So good, so good,
so it still comes out, but that they used to
do every month back in the day. And there's fantastic
articles in there from all sorts of cryptozoology and parapsychologists.

Speaker 4 (01:44:47):
You name, it.

Speaker 1 (01:44:48):
But for the Fourteen Times, I did an article that
was stealing a title from a book from Martin Eban
a long time ago called They Knew the Unknown, and
it was about very scientists and well known people that
had strange experiences. So it include Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung
and goes into people like Mary Curie and Abraham Lincoln

(01:45:09):
and you name it. So I looked at modern day celebrities,
so of course I included Ozzie Osborne. He'd had a
few strange experiences, including dreaming about the death of Princess
Diana two weeks before it happened, and that's mentioned in
his autobiography. During Lockdown and COVID, I read a lot
of biographers and autobiographers for people that I admire, and
I realized that sometimes in these books people would dedicate

(01:45:32):
at least a paragraph to one strange experience that stuck
with them throughout their life. So other people that came up.
Barry Gibb of the Beg's. After Robin Gibb died, he
saw him walk across his living room but through one
door and out the other, and he said that was Robin.
I saw him Plainer's day sting of the police. He

(01:45:56):
lives in an old house anyway, but he said he
woke up one night or what he thought was his
wife at the end of the bed, at the end
of the bed cradling their child, and he leaned over
to look at his wife, and his wife's there asleep
next to him, and he wakes her up, manages to
wake her up, and he said, can you see that
lady over there? And they both sat there looking at
this woman sort of stood in the corner of the

(01:46:18):
room who I assume just fades out and then through
to Ed Sheerham. He was on Jonathan Ross's chat show
saying that he got a place in London, but on
the top floor is the guest room and he doesn't
ever go up there. He stayed up there before. I
don't know if he'd stayed, but everyone that had been
up and stayed said they've woken up to see a
really young girl stood at the end of the bed

(01:46:40):
staring at them, and so they didn't want to stay
there again, at least not in that room, and the
cleaners didn't like going up there either. So Jonathan said,
have you stayed up there? And he said no, You know,
I'm not going up there. So all these people, all
these people throughout time, and you know that these are
just we've talked about musicians. But this goes back alonga

(01:47:00):
Dr Walter Franklin Prince did a really good book back
in nineteen thirty four. I think his was and called
noted Witnesses to psychic occurrences, And it was part of
the argument from the outside skeptical community that oh, people
only have paranormal experiences because they're uneducated and they don't
know any better, or they're so religiously inclined. So he

(01:47:21):
looked at groups of high court judges, police officers, scientists, artists, actors,
you name it, from every walk of life and different
ends of the educational spectrum and art spectrum. All of
these people seem to have an experience when they're in
the right place at the right time. So you cannot
just group people and say they don't know any better,
they're uneducated and that's why we're having.

Speaker 3 (01:47:41):
It, right. Yeah, I think that's so important.

Speaker 4 (01:47:44):
I I.

Speaker 3 (01:47:47):
I don't know if it if artists, you know, creative people, whatever,
you know that they have they have the ability to
relax their mind and go into the zone you know,
and create, whether it's writing or sculpting or music, whatever
it can be. But they go to that certain place

(01:48:08):
and so they have the ability to do that, and
that opens up perception to other realms.

Speaker 1 (01:48:15):
And you must get that for the guitars, right, you know,
when playing away, you must get certain animal you just
lost lost in what you're doing.

Speaker 3 (01:48:21):
I do, I do? I do? And I've had you know,
bizarre I don't know if you can hear this. Let
me turn around. So one night, it's many years ago,
it was probably ten years ago, I finished the show
and one of the guitars on the wall drums. Okay, yeah,

(01:48:43):
So I'm sitting man. I peed a couple of times
in my life on myself and this this was one
of those times. So I'm sitting here. I wrapped the show,
you know, I take the headphones off, I'm just like,
you know, this bad a c lean back and then
this happens just like that, and I'm sitting here, I'm

(01:49:10):
like what And so I'm looking at the did something
fall on the guitar to strum the strings? You know?

Speaker 1 (01:49:21):
I was about to say, are you the kind of
man that leaves a plectrum like between the strings like that,
and it's just pinged down.

Speaker 3 (01:49:27):
I thought of all those things, and it's only happened
that one time. It's only happened that one time. But
when you experience when he experienced this stuff enough, it's
not like I have the answers or anybody does. But
it certainly shows me that there's something else to this

(01:49:50):
reality that we don't understand. And I am going to
chase this down and try to figure it out. Yeah,
there's something or it's just something happening. I don't know
the time of day. I mentioned earlier the hum with
Tony Rathman and Sharie Rathman. They're both listening to the

(01:50:11):
show tonight, by the way, and they are the best
when it comes to this. And he has developed a
lot of gear and his latest project that he has
developed and I've heard it seen it works. He can
do real time two way spirit communication. Okay, real time,

(01:50:37):
real time, just sit and talk and get a real
time answer on subject too, not like okay, so what
is your name? Yes? You know?

Speaker 4 (01:50:50):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:50:51):
No no, no no no? What is your name? Bob Baumgardner?

Speaker 1 (01:50:56):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:50:56):
And get these real specific things. And so again I
don't have the answers to any of that. But I
know that there's something going on that is is beyond
our world of measure and what we understand in this
two D existence, three D you know existence. I can't

(01:51:19):
explain it like a guitar strumming or that creak you mentioned.
Time of day here, most of the action most is
during the day, is during the day, the movement of stuff,
the craziness and the But that doesn't mean it doesn't

(01:51:41):
happen at night, because it does.

Speaker 1 (01:51:43):
Yeah, I'm not saying that that there are things.

Speaker 3 (01:51:45):
I'm not saying that. Yeah, I'm not saying that you
I'm saying what with my own experience here, although it
has slowed down, things still happen. But for the first
two or three years in this house, it was insane.
It was insane. It was all day long, something happening.

(01:52:06):
And I live alone, you know, And that's to have
one of the I get it all right. One of
the explanations is you forgot you moved it there and
you don't remember, or you know, you made the phone
call and you left a message, but you don't remember.
Whatever it is, right, No, this house is spotless. I

(01:52:32):
have a very whacked out extreme disorder of cleanliness. Okay,
I'm not a germophobe, but my shit is in the
right spot.

Speaker 1 (01:52:43):
I can see from the guitars that everything has its place.

Speaker 3 (01:52:45):
Dude, dude, dude, it all everything is correct. Okay, yes,
So when something is out of place and out of
place object, right, what do they call that? An op
out of place object? It's it's noticeable and it I

(01:53:08):
I don't freak out. I have Did I save it
or did I put it back?

Speaker 1 (01:53:13):
Hold on?

Speaker 3 (01:53:15):
I have it right here. Okay, explain this to me.
This is a Harley Davidson logo. It's thick. This is
a keychain. Okay, but I cut the loop off on
the top, and I got this on a keychain. I
cut the top off because I was going to glue

(01:53:37):
it to one of my helmets. I write, a Harley.

Speaker 1 (01:53:42):
I can't afford the Harley, Yeah you can, so, so
I I.

Speaker 3 (01:53:51):
Wanted to glue this on one of my helmets. So
I cut it and I put it on my island,
in my kitchen, and it sits there in my spotlessly
clean kitchen. Sits on my island all by itself for
two weeks. I come downstairs. I'm making my coffee, my
French press, right, I walk past it and I look

(01:54:13):
at it. Okay, today's day, I'm gonna glue this on
the helmet. After a couple of weeks, I walk in
the kitchen in the morning to make my coffee and
it's gone. It's not on my island where it had
been sitting in the same spot for two weeks. It's gone,
and I'm moving stuff around. I'm like, did I move
did it fall in the trash can? It's not here?

(01:54:35):
Did I move it? Did I move it to the
garage where I was going to put it on my workbench?
And I'm thinking all of these things, trying to explain
it away. About a week later, I had forgotten about it,
come downstairs to make my coffee in the morning and
it's sitting on my island right there. Now, don't nobody

(01:54:58):
come at me and go, well, it was bullshit. The
thing moved went somewhere, fairies, I don't know, I don't know,
and was placed back. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:55:15):
There used to be account of that all the time
in sales rooms and certain psychics mediums that were attributed
to that. So one was Eleanor Zugan, who was known
as the Romanian devil girl that was studied by Harriet Price.
But in these day to day scenarios, there's a brilliant
book called Jots or jot just one of those things

(01:55:37):
is what it's Rember. I remember that, yeah, written by
Mary Rose Barrington. She was a longtime member of the
Society for Psychical Research. I adored her. She was a
lovely lady, and she was a barrister, so a very
highly trained solicitor, and her report writing was very akin

(01:55:57):
to a barrister, and very structured in her report and
how she delivered evidence. And I just liked listening to
her talks. They'd always be written out and she'd just
read them out and you would get captivated by her voice.
So that was towards the end of her life she
started writing up her interest in her experiences, so she
wrote about her interest in psychical research. But Jotts was
one of her interests. So if anyone's interested in these

(01:56:20):
experiences of the badge suddenly appearing when it was definitely
not there in the first instance, some of you might
have had it where you've got your keys and your
phone ready to go out, and you just put them
on the side and you turn around the gun, you're looking, well,
what I just done?

Speaker 3 (01:56:31):
It?

Speaker 1 (01:56:31):
On the side, you know where the gun? You go
all around the house, and then all of a sudden
it's in one of the back rooms, resting on something
completely different and you haven't been in there. And this
is how people go about reporting it or losing some keys.
And then weeks later they're in a sink in the
bathroom upstairs. Where have they come from? So these are
very interesting experiences when people report these.

Speaker 3 (01:56:54):
Here's the other part. Let me ask you this directly.
I feel that every buddy on this planet, at every
level of life, has experienced the crazy, but they put
it in a box, put it on the shelf, and
forget about it because life moves on.

Speaker 1 (01:57:14):
And that's where we started with this whole interview. We
started with do people just move on for it? They go, oh,
it's it's just one of those things. But this is
that mash up between are we a praising coincidence right
or do we even know that it's one of those
things that I defined halfway through I defined all these
elements of parapsychology. If people know that these are an

(01:57:35):
interest to parapsychology, then they are finally then going to go,
oh oh, right, now, I understand that that is actually
unique because Cal's said, this is what parapsychology is interesting. Otherwise,
who'd you call, who'd you talk to about it? What's
anyone going to do about it? Anyway? You just deal
with it and get on with it.

Speaker 3 (01:57:53):
You go to work, You got to go to work,
you got to pay the bills.

Speaker 1 (01:57:59):
Reveling how it is and enjoy it, and so that
is really unique. I will tell this university, this person,
Lloyd auerback, you know, Julian Mossbridge and Dean raid and
everyone else. I'll tell them because I know too. If
you don't know to, you just got to take it on.

Speaker 3 (01:58:14):
That's right, that's right. Well, let's let's let's end with this.
Let's end with some fun.

Speaker 4 (01:58:20):
I know.

Speaker 3 (01:58:23):
That you have stared at the back of somebody's head
until they turn around and look at you. I know
you've done it.

Speaker 1 (01:58:31):
Yeah, I I've done those studies.

Speaker 3 (01:58:34):
Yeah right, right right, I enjoy doing that right now.
That has to be that Dean Raiden Julia moss Bridge
kind of thing where we're entangling something in our minds
and disturbing something enough that somebody knows that they're being
looked at and they turn around and look at you.

Speaker 1 (01:58:56):
So that would have to be that middle ground that psychokinesis.
So it's the idea that focused intent on the back
of someone's head could be seen in a sort of
an evolutionary theory as a threat detection someone is invading
our space, but as a potential predator.

Speaker 3 (01:59:12):
You see, now you're explaining away the fun aspect.

Speaker 1 (01:59:15):
No no, no, no, no, no no, that there could
still be a sigh element to it, because SI is
you know, in theory, SI is activated to tell us
there's a danger. Sure, because staring at someone and knowing
they're staring from the back of you is not a
conventional thing. You've got eyes at the front, so you'd
have to turn around and see them having an uncomfortable
feeling and needing to turn around and look where's that

(01:59:37):
feeling come from? So are their eyes influencing the back
of the head.

Speaker 3 (01:59:41):
That's great, gat. So what you're saying is we all
have that sie ability, we just don't tap into it.

Speaker 1 (01:59:47):
It could be potentially seen as it and we're just
not appraising that as SI because otherwise, what are we
actually reacting to? Why do we feel the need to
actually scan our environment. You'll see it in a nature program.
The gazelze in grass and the lioness is somewhere else
preying on that one gazelle out of many, and the
gazelle then like chomping away, looks up and goes left.

Speaker 3 (02:00:08):
Right.

Speaker 1 (02:00:09):
Is it subtle smells in the air that they're picking
up on that the lioness is getting close even though
they know up to hunt down wind and so forth.
Or is it that early detection of something's not right
and that something is not right? Is I'm being stared
at with the intent of something that is not good?
And that could be you know, like with humans, because
of a potential attacker or someone that wants to take

(02:00:31):
something off of you, and a number of other things.
It is usually not a good intent. It could be
a positive reaction as well, where someone's just very attracted
to you and they can't help but look at you
and you get that feeling because again it's still someone
invading your space because there's an intense stare on you
as well.

Speaker 3 (02:00:47):
Next time you're over in the state, I'll show you
a ghost.

Speaker 1 (02:00:52):
Oh please, please.

Speaker 3 (02:00:53):
Guarantee guaranteed I can Guart. I'll show you UFO for sure.

Speaker 1 (02:00:58):
Oh please, I'll be back that way at some point.
Last time I was in LA was twenty nineteen because
I was with Scott Rogo's dad. But then I went
up to Scott's archive, which is in San Francisco. But
I need to come back to La. I'm forever going
over to Vegas and I was there in August and
I haven't been to the East coast in a long one.
I need to go back over to Well.

Speaker 3 (02:01:19):
If you make it out here, seriously, I'll make that
happen for you. And also I will be in Scotland
in August.

Speaker 1 (02:01:28):
Stland your Monty Pythons.

Speaker 3 (02:01:30):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to be Scotland in August. So man,
if you got the time, I may spend a couple
of days in London before I head up to Scotland
and then come back to London and spend a couple
of more days. I gotta go dot. I want to
go to Stonehenge and I want to go to Avebury.
I'm going to get those two things out of the way.
So I don't know if I'm going to do that

(02:01:51):
before or after Scotland, but yeah, I'll be around, so
we'll have to go shoot.

Speaker 1 (02:01:58):
We'll book something in and I'll find you at some
point on your tour and we'll do some grab some
lunch or something. But don't go to Camelot. It's a
silly place.

Speaker 3 (02:02:07):
We're going to the bridge of death, going to the
bridge of debt, going to the bridge of death. Where
can everybody follow all of your work?

Speaker 1 (02:02:14):
Alum variety of places? If your Facebook users, I'm just
down as cal Cooper. It's not even a fan page,
it's just a standard profile. But I just publish about
work and what I'm doing. So cal Cooper on there,
Instagram and X it's Callum E. Cooper. You'll find me
on TikTok and the doctor Callum Cooper. I think is

(02:02:37):
my what is my TikTok thing that you've got me
thinking now and yet people keep finding it? Oh, that's
gone straight into something. TikTok is at doctor Calcooper or
doctor dot Calcooper on TikTok and then my website is
Callumeecooper dot com and the same name. You will find

(02:02:59):
my books such as my original Telephone Calls from the Dead.
There's other books I've contributed to, but the most recent
was getting this finally back out there nineteen seventy nine.
Finally I've tied it all back out again from scratch
to correct various errors that I knew about, refine some
of it. And then there's an extended PostScript by me
to say what's happened forty five years on from this

(02:03:21):
and what's going on with the actual studies. So those
two books work really well together because it's one study
and then another study, and then the PostScript brings us
up to date as well. Great follow me, get in touch,
send me an email with any questions and stuff. If
I can help with anything from education to you want
to share a strange experience and things like that, Go ahead,

(02:03:42):
go ahead.

Speaker 3 (02:03:42):
Enjoy the rest of your day. Man, great conversation, and
I look forward to our next one.

Speaker 1 (02:03:47):
Thank you so much, cal my pleasure, good speaking to you.

Speaker 3 (02:03:51):
Have a great night, great day. I should say cal
Cooper and his links are below. It is Calumcooper dot com.
Those are below. All simple to do. I want to
remind everybody that tomorrow on the show, Nikola Farmer is
with us and we're going to be talking an extension

(02:04:12):
of tonight's show The I See you Academy. All right,
so that will be tomorrow night. I want to thank
Cal perfect show, perfect conversation, so much fun. Great way
to start the week. I'm your O, Jimmy Church. This
is Fade to Black and you know what I've got
and that is go Becklee Teppe. BEDA Black is produced

(02:04:36):
by Hilton J. Palm, Renee Newman, and Michelle Free. Special
thanks to Bill John Dex, Jessica Dennis and Kevin Webmaster
is Drew the Geek. Music by Doug Albriche intro Spaceboy
Ada Black is produced by kJ c R for the

(02:04:57):
Game Changer Network. This broadcast is owned and copyrighted twenty
twenty four by Fade to Black and the Game Changer Network, Inc.
It cannot be rebroadcast, downloaded, copied, or used anywhere in
the known universe without written permission from Fade to Black
or the Game Changer Network. I'm your host, Jimmy Church,
Go Beckley, Tappy