Episode 255 Shelf-Life - A History of Bookstores as Resistance Centers with Kelsey Black - Family Plot

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I'm Dean, I'm the dad.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
I'm Laura, I'm the mom, and I'm Arthur, I'm the son,
and together we are family claws.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Be nice. Ah, all right, let me get the housekeeping
out of the way. If you want to help the show,
there's many ways you can do that. First and foremost,
there is Tea Spring, our merch store. If you need hoodies, sticks, mugs,
uh yeah, shirts all with our own Arthur's artwork on them,

(01:19):
you can get those at Tea Spring. Also, did you
mention stickers? We have stickers.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
We have stickers and mugs sticks.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yes. However, if you cannot afford to you know, buy
merch and I know it's fairly expensive, you can always
drop us a dollar or three a month for our
Patreon And remember Patreon members get free episodes and special
episodes where I don't bleep Arthur when he goes off
on a tangent, usually.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
Free episodes, special episodes where you don't leep Arthur. You
just said free episodes which everybody can listen.

Speaker 4 (01:58):
To us for free.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
That's right, I meant to add free. Thank you for correcting.
You bid If you cannot afford a monthly donation, which
we have kids We understand that you can always just
send us a one time donation of a dollar or
two through buy me a Coffee. If you enjoy the show,
please share it on social media.

Speaker 5 (02:20):
Start with friends, share it with family, with everyone, And
if you don't enjoy the show, please keep it to yourself.

Speaker 6 (02:31):
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Alrighty, so what are we doing tonight? Well, tonight we're
joined by Kelsey Plack, owner of the Beek Burrow Used
Bookstore out of Flugerville, Texas, to discuss bookstores as centers
for resistance.

Speaker 6 (03:00):
We at least take a second to say hi to Kelsey.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Hi to Kelcey.

Speaker 7 (03:05):
Hi, Kelsey uh.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Radical bookstores and bookstore workers have always nurtured rebellion. More
than simply being sites of political participation. In exchange, radical
bookstores serve as critical infrastructure, These pivotal spaces for people
to strategize and engage one another political party. Bookstores were
key in supporting the labor movement, pushing for racial equality,

(03:36):
working on behalf of revolutionary freedom fighters, and participating in
global solidarity and class struggle. In doing so, they created
the space for their customers to not only radically reimagine
their worlds, but to participate in activating their radical imaginations,
we will pick notable points in history, do some broad

(03:58):
historical annotations, and even talk about ways in which stores
can or have given out secret information in this Did
you know about this? Because I didn't know about this
episode of the Family Plot podcast.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
I'm super excited that we're doing this episode because you know,
I've recently, over the last three events, been jumping the
two feet and my head and both hands back into reading,
have been pushing our kids into being at the library,
checking out what's available to them through library services.

Speaker 6 (04:32):
So I'm excited to talk about all the amazing things
that happen through others endeavors into reading.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
I am too. But when you say jumping into the reading,
does the smut you read count?

Speaker 7 (04:47):
Absolutely count, absolutely count.

Speaker 6 (04:50):
The smuts I.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
Read is radically changing the world and the way people
view themselves and view others around them.

Speaker 7 (04:57):
Yeah, there is. There's a lot of social commentary to
be absolutely absolutely say that as a bookseller who that
is the primary thing that bookstores sell.

Speaker 6 (05:10):
I love it, I love it, I absolutely love it.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
I love the avenues that have also opened up for
indie authors and independent authors through all different genres, using
things like years ago I would read erotica and things online,
and the things that are mass produced now and the

(05:35):
authors that can become published authors just going through online
venues are so amazing to me.

Speaker 7 (05:43):
Nowadays, I think times are changing, and I think times
you're changing for the good because I hear booksellers who've
been in the industry for decades and they're like, oh, well,
back in the day, it was a lot harder for this,
this and this, and now it's a lot easier, and
it's not even complaining. They're just like, I love how
it's easier nowadays. Absolutely, but this is what indie bookstores
are for, is like to do the work so it

(06:07):
is easier for the future generations.

Speaker 6 (06:09):
Yes, for sure.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
So super excited about this episode and so happy that
you're here with us.

Speaker 7 (06:15):
Kelsey, I am very excited to hear too.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Esa heads up some of these stories an example that
ill examples that illustrate how bookstops have become places where
people would resist the powers that be. We will be
covering some things that could be entire episodes on their own,
or indeed have had entire podcasts devoted to them p
s I Bookstore, for example. We're just doing a brief

(06:42):
historical overview since we do as we do, so let's
start with David Ruggles. David Ruggles was born in the
early eighteen hundreds to free African Americans in Connecticut. He
attended religious schools growing up, and once he left home,
he moved to New York, where he ran a grocery

(07:03):
store that also contained a lending library. Because it lent
books about the abolition of slavery and books by black authors,
as well as newspapers and pamphlets that dealt with the
abolition movement, the store was eventually burned down by a
mob because why not. After the store was burned down,

(07:25):
in eighteen thirty four, he opened the first black owned
bookstore in the US. He sold antislavery literature and feminist literature,
published and distributed copies of The Mirror of Liberty, his
own abolitionist newspaper, and helped those he could. His shop

(07:47):
was an ideological as well as a literal stop on
the underground railroad. David would claim over six hundred slaves
passed through his store on their final journey to freedom.
One of those slaves was statesman Frederick Douglas remember him.
We talked about him, albeit briefly, in our episode about

(08:08):
Victoria Woodhoule, the first female presidential candidate. We also mentioned
him in our episode about Robert Small's episodes two forty
seven and two thirty seven, respectively. If you want to
go check those out, go ahead, we'll wait. He even
published a pamphlet called the Abrogation of the Seventh Amendment,
which urged Northern wives to confront their husbands who own

(08:31):
who kept owned slaves as mistresses. Frederick and David would
become lifelong friends, and both were devoted to the abolitionist cause.
The shop, which had had a name other than something
simple like David Ruggles Bookseller, has become lost to history,
at least I couldn't find it. But it became a

(08:54):
place where abolitionists and feminists would gather and discuss ideas
and ideals, and of them would eventually come to be
members of the Underground Railroad.

Speaker 7 (09:05):
Excellent, that was good, you did well.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Thank you.

Speaker 7 (09:13):
I really love how you have already done an episode
on Victoria wood Woodhole because like the first team all
presidential candidate, like and she couldn't even vote, like absolutely
I heard about her in history class in college and like,
I can't get enough. I don't mean to get us
off track. I just know it's not, because I'll tell
you are.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
Our eight year old is so excited because we're getting
ready to do an episode just on Amazing Black Women.
Our eight year old is super excited too, because we're
getting ready to do an episode she learned about in
school about author and Lucy, Author and Lucy.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
That in fact, that's next week.

Speaker 6 (09:54):
That is next week, So we get it.

Speaker 8 (10:00):
Yeah, here, ye here ye allow me to present off
this corner.

Speaker 4 (10:20):
I would say, hey, guys, welcome back to the corner.

Speaker 9 (10:22):
How are we doing today? But nobody else is here
except my father. I'm great, he's great. That's good.

Speaker 4 (10:32):
Go ahead and let us know how you're doing today.

Speaker 9 (10:39):
For corner, I have to talk about I have to
be a little into myself today because I'm very proud
of myself. I had been working very hard, but within
working very hard, I have also been making myself a

(11:04):
background for my computer, and that has been taking me.
It took me like three days to complete. But it's
of three of my characters, Night, Miko, Out and Moose,
and I loved them all very much and I finally
finished that yesterday. And then I'm also in terms in

(11:29):
something called art Fight.

Speaker 4 (11:33):
Uh.

Speaker 9 (11:33):
It's basically a platform where for I think a month
from July to August, no, July August, yeah, from July
to August, to compete with other artists basically, and you.

Speaker 4 (11:57):
What it's called is attacking.

Speaker 9 (11:58):
You attack their care characters and you draw their character
in your own art style and you send it to
them and you either get defenses with which is when
the other person attacks your character and draws a picture
of your character, or they just leave you alone because

(12:23):
they're busy, which fair enough. But I'm excited to open
my chances up as an artist. And that's that's fun.

Speaker 4 (12:35):
That's just that's just very fun. What else can I
talk about? Sitting?

Speaker 9 (12:47):
I'm very sad that I missed this episode, but my
mother gave me a whole muscle relaxer, so I pass
out for like.

Speaker 4 (12:57):
Thirty four hours, more like shakes six hours.

Speaker 9 (13:01):
Yeah, okay, yeah, so I've passed out for a for
a while, So.

Speaker 4 (13:09):
I'm very sorry to do what's her name, Kelsey, Kelsey, Kelsey,
I'm sorry, Kelsey.

Speaker 9 (13:19):
I'm sorry. I wanted I swear I wanted to talk
to you. I just couldn't. I couldn't make it out.
They woke me up like three times and I was like, no,
I get that's that's that's all about. That's that's about
all I could talk.

Speaker 4 (13:38):
About it in the corner. So I'm gonname.

Speaker 10 (13:51):
It was time to get back to the show.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
So in nineteen sixty eight, and Dad wants to read
it or rite what a great year that was? The
Communist Party the United States of America operated the Jefferson Bookshop,
among others.

Speaker 4 (14:07):
All right, in nineteen sixty eight, and Dad wants to
reiterate what a great year that was?

Speaker 9 (14:17):
The Communist Party of the United States of America operated
the Jefferson book Shop, among others. The Jefferson Bookshop was
often targeted for assault around this time, as the windows
contain murals of critical murals critical of the war in Vietnam.

(14:42):
This often led to those windows being smashed the Jefferson Bookshop.
The Jefferson Bookshop was a place where members of the
counter culture could go to find obscure books on everything
from African and American studies to more critical takes on

(15:03):
US history and culture, to books of poems and stories.
By radical authors who were not recognized by the American mainstream.
It was said, and this is paraphrasing, that those who
could not find the American Dream in places Madison Avenue

(15:23):
said it existed, looked for places like the Jefferson Bookshop.
On Sunday, July twenty first, a nineteen sixty eight, the
bookshop exploded.

Speaker 4 (15:37):
Wow, that's not very fun.

Speaker 9 (15:41):
It is likely that it was done by a group
of right wing extremeists who at the time called American
Patriots for Freedom APF. I don't like that, three members

(16:08):
of whom who had been arrested in front of the
shop with dynamite infuses some months earlier. And there is
a reason bookstores are often targets. Are often the targets
for a group. Groups like this. These places are where

(16:28):
the counter culture gathers to learn and share information.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Uh and now a word from our guest, Kelsey black
notice Iding concluded a quote from you I found.

Speaker 7 (16:43):
Oh yes, I didn't even know that that was my quote.
And then I was like, I feel like I've said
that before, yet.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
It came up in an interview you did.

Speaker 7 (16:52):
Apparently, Yeah, I'm not surprised. Okay, we're not just selling
books We're building a space where people feel seen, heard
and safe. That's resistance in its own right. Kelsey Black,
the book.

Speaker 6 (17:09):
Borrow nice, fairly nice already.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
So I can ask you these questions. You can talk
about and what you want, but this is really your
space to talk about whatever you want. Promote your bookstore,
promote whatever you happen to be doing. If you've got
a best friend who's coming around, this is the place
to drop it.

Speaker 7 (17:33):
Okay, Well, challenges some of the challenges that I've faced
besides you know, opening up a bookstore in the twenty
first century. I mean I operate the store in Texas,
which is one of the red estates, if not the
red estate in the United States, and because our state

(17:54):
is known for being really conservative, and our books store
is colloquially known as the little bookstore that Could, And
what that usually means is because we resist a lot
of challenges. We live in a very liberal area because
we're right outside of Austin. But it does come with
challenges because of our lawmakers specifically, and there have been

(18:15):
threats from like community organizations, from the far right. But
all in all, I think my experience has been mostly
positive just because of how liberal of an area we
are in, and I think that protects us some because
we're not just We're not doing anything like super duper countercultural.

(18:36):
We're just trying to give people a community space in
which they can be themselves. And somehow that is resistance.
I don't know. I'm confused by that. But people don't
tend to like it when you're like, oh, yeah, no,
you can be weird around me.

Speaker 9 (18:51):
I don't know.

Speaker 7 (18:52):
The man or the patriarchy or whatever doesn't tend to
like it when people stand out. But like standing out
and being yourself is like what we stand for the
book Borrow. But a lot of our clientele because of that,
because that is our mission statement is embrace you're weird.
A lot of people who are not considered my majority

(19:16):
come and shop at our store. They so I have
a lot of minority individuals, So I have a lot
of people of color, I have a lot of LGBTQ individuals.
I have a lot of people who are not considered
cist white. That makes sense, and because of that, I

(19:40):
tailor my collection and my bookstore to that clientele. Excellent,
because that's what a business owner should do well. Whenever
my clientele is LGBTQ, and I have characters in books
that are LGBTQ. You know, people who are spending money
in my bookstore asking me for certain titles. I am

(20:03):
a small store, so like the only reason we have
titles in my store is because people ask for them.
But our lawmakers think that they know better than me
of what my customers want, and they're trying to make
it against the law to sell to customers who might

(20:23):
need these books. My laptop is about to die. I'm
gonna go grab a charger for it before we you on.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
Okay, so your great kids looks like a pillow who
came up here from Austin.

Speaker 6 (20:37):
Then they brought us and the black cat Obsidian. Tonay
brought us him too.

Speaker 7 (20:43):
I'm not surprised because Denay has away with the animals.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
And when I say that away with.

Speaker 7 (20:48):
The animals, away with lots of things, our friends, she
has away with lots of things. You're right, she has
a way with animals and that like she has a
lot of them. Yes, but yeah, I definitely have like
my kids will have aunts and uncles. I've definitely shared
a bed with these people and not a family friendly way.
And they're going my kids are going to refer to

(21:10):
them as aunt person or uncle person, and it's just
like same here. I mean like I'm with my soulmate now,
like yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
No, that's Dnay has slept at our house.

Speaker 6 (21:24):
He and I are together and have two children together.

Speaker 7 (21:27):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Dnay is wonderful and like we.

Speaker 6 (21:31):
Spent multiple nights on our couches.

Speaker 7 (21:34):
Yeah, it's Dnay is an incredible human being and she's
the reason I have this bookstore. So Kat, what are
you doing? Stop? Stop eating? What are you Okay? He's
being weird. So it was February twenty twenty one. Well,
actually no, I will back it up just a little bit.
My cat.

Speaker 4 (21:55):
There, do not thank you.

Speaker 7 (21:59):
It was December. We're thirty first, twenty twenty going into
January one, twenty twenty one, and I was like, well,
I got well, I'll tell you all the real story
because we're kind off topic a little bit. The I
tell people, especially if we're interviewing, like it's on the record,
I say that it's a new Year's resolution. And then

(22:20):
I met the universe, and the universe told me to
open a bookstore, and I was like, well, I have
a really good paying job right now, and bookselling does
not pay well. I work for Google. I get good paycheck,
no thank you. And then I started working. I started
thinking about it. I was like, there is no bookstore
in Flugerville, but the like the universe. Basically, when I

(22:42):
met the universe, I was afraid I was gonna lose
my sanity. So I told the corverse, Okay, help me
get through this, and the universe said, okay, there is
no bookstore in Flugerville, And I was like, are you
a motherfucking kidding me? So I was thinking about it,
and I was like, oh my is no bookstore in Flickerville.
The nearest one to me is thirty five minutes away.

(23:04):
And then I lost my job. So wait, it was
like five things happened in like one week. I printed
out this four page business plan. Didn't even have projections
of finances, just things that I needed to worry about,
like utilities and rent and stuff like that. Sure, but
I printed it out and then like within a week,

(23:25):
I was told that my contract was ending with Google,
that there was a snow apocalypse, and that our power
went out. And so I had a week with no
power thinking about how to open up a bookstore. When
our power went out and we had animals, I called
Denay and I was like, Hey, you've got gas at
your house. Can I stay at your house? And so

(23:45):
we stayed at her house and basically she was like, well,
you've lost your job, like you have two months left,
so you just was thinking about having this bookstore and
your timeline was question mark and now it's two months.
What are you going to do? And I was like, girl,
find a way and she was like okay.

Speaker 6 (24:06):
And I can hear those words in her mouth.

Speaker 7 (24:09):
Yeah, yeah, and you can hear it too, you know
exactly who she Yeah, she.

Speaker 6 (24:14):
Was like, I don't hear it how I would leave.

Speaker 7 (24:17):
My house to go to your bookstore. And I was like,
I know, thank you, Denay.

Speaker 6 (24:22):
She's she's good people.

Speaker 7 (24:24):
I love I love Denay so much. I love Denay
just I love her so much.

Speaker 10 (24:44):

Speaker 7 (24:46):
But yeah, there was There was a lot of laws.
So the Texas Legislator meets uh every two years. Technically
it's every I think it was like every odd year
or something like, but it's not every other year. It's
just worded differently. But this year there was probably six

(25:10):
or seven different laws in relation to censorship, like with
source materials like printed books and pans and zines and stuff.

Speaker 6 (25:22):
Uh huh.

Speaker 7 (25:22):
And so I was at the Capitol like because it
was you know, the legis session this this past year.
I was capital probably once a week, probably at least
dropping a card or trying to testify on bills that
would put my line of business at risk. Like my
exactly hell is LGBTQ. My clientele are people of color.

(25:47):
My clientele are insert here insert not hetero cis sorry
not insert not cis het white person here. Right, And
so I you know, I'm trying to cater to my demographics,
and politicians are trying to make it a constill of
for me to sell the books that my clientele want. Absolutely,

(26:11):
that's just one. That's just one thing.

Speaker 6 (26:14):
Yeah, exactly right.

Speaker 7 (26:16):
We don't have a lot of community pushback, Like I'm
gonna be very careful when I say this, and I'm
knock gonna wood while I say it, because groups like
Moms for Liberty and uh maga.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
Anything that you don't want put in this, he will
edit out. This doesn't go out live. So yeah, yeah, yeah,
anything you know, off the record, and he can totally
edit anything.

Speaker 7 (26:39):
Okay, none of this is off the record, but like,
if we do want to say that, we'll just say
New Year's resolution. Because I'm going into politics in a
few years, I just don't want to leaked. But even
if it is, it's like, Okay, it's not.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
The end of the world.

Speaker 7 (26:49):
But but yeah, moms, like we'll probably go at yeah,
But like I'm more concerned of moms for liberty because
they don't necessarily know I exist yet. But if they
do come after me, Like, even though it is a challenge,
even if they do come after me. The American Booksellers Association,
which is our national association that gives us educational resources

(27:12):
and financial resources, they actually have a SOOP as standard
operating procedure on what if this is to happen to
you and your bookstore gets attacked by insert group here
or whatever. They have a list of what you should
do first, second, third, fourth, So it's only that they

(27:32):
have that because it's happened so many times. And so
even if it does happen to us, I know I'm
not up the creek without a paddle. I know I
have the resources of the American Booksellers Association.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Right Yeah, well, and that's nice. I work for a
company that is LGBTQ plus friendly and positive. CBS Health
is very supportive of our very supportive and inclusive of
all the lines of business of all colors, races, creeds, religions.

(28:06):
So that's one of my favorite things we're working for
the company.

Speaker 7 (28:10):
M H.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
In that case, I feel really comfortable about being very
open that I don't have a regular run of the
mill nuclear family. We have trans children, transgender children, we
have trans we have gender fluid child. You know we

(28:32):
we are not a married couple. We are a couple.

Speaker 7 (28:37):
Yeah, you're a partnered couple exactly. I mean that makes talk.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
About that and be who I am because I work
for a company that I know respects how I live
my life.

Speaker 6 (28:53):
But when you have to stand up for your company,
and you are your own company, I.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
Absolutely respect and the fact that you stand up to
anyone who's coming up against you, that's awesome.

Speaker 7 (29:04):
M And it's hard to stand up. It's hard to
stand up when people don't snay up with you, like
it just really is. And so like there's a question
on here, like how the community rally to save our shop.
That's happened twice actually now, which proves, like I guess,

(29:24):
that people really want us to stick around. So the
first time we were inside of a Texas wine bar
with our friends at the three Like a Go, which
is in downtown Fluggerville. It was another connection I made
with Deney because of Denay, I should say. But we
were there, and we were there for about four and
a half months, well at I think it was three

(29:47):
and a half months. I was told, uh, we had
thirty days to get out for reasons that were not
anyone's fault, and I actually had there It was less
than thirty days because I had so The day that
they told us that we needed to be out was
July fifteenth. I had a funeral on that day and
it didn't planned for a few months because that's sometimes

(30:08):
how funerals go. So I was like, okay, I have
like twenty nine days. Great, thanks so much, the thanks
universe appreciate it. Uh So for that, I think it
was like June fifteenth we found out. So it was
July fifteenth we had to be out. We had no
idea where we were gonna go. We went viral. We
had the money, We had the money to go. There

(30:32):
was no place to go.

Speaker 6 (30:34):
Wow, yep, been there.

Speaker 7 (30:38):
It was fourteenth July fourteenth at three point thirty pm
that we've got a phone call. We're packing our stuff.
We have to be out of the three leg agoat
by five pm on July fourteenth. You get to call
it three thirty. Now you don't have to tour a space.
Oh good, we could go look at a space.

Speaker 8 (30:58):
So we went.

Speaker 7 (31:00):
It was like mile down the road. We met three
forty five. We said when can we move in? And
they said not for two weeks. I was like, can
I move my stuff in now? And they said absolutely,
you just can't access it for about two weeks. And
I was like, that's fine. But we rallied our community
right before all that happened. So when we found out

(31:21):
it was, you know, halfway through June, and I tried
to do work behind the scenes for the first two weeks.
I tried to find a space. I tried to do
what I could do behind the scenes, right. I no
other ideas, So I went to social media and I said, hey,
I need help, and our story went viral. It went

(31:43):
across the nation. There was an author friend of ours
that picked up the story and then her video went viral.
So not only did my Facebook post go viral, her
video went viral. Awesome, and we were able to raise
enough money to sustain our space for or I think
it was like eleven or twelve months.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
It was not a year.

Speaker 7 (32:05):
Yeah, even was moving in and the down payments and
the moving and yeah, that kind of stuff. And so
we were able to you know, pay off publishers and
that kind of thing and move into the space that
we currently are. Well we're a gay, little witchy bookstore
in the middle of Liberal Texas. Yeah, the from November

(32:29):
to January was rough. I bet it scared. People did
not know what they felt powerless, right, And I don't
know about you, but when I feel powerless, I don't
feel like doing anything. I don't I feel like getting
coffee is the hardest task when I feel powerless.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
That depression.

Speaker 11 (32:52):
For sure.

Speaker 7 (32:52):
It's a depression because you feel powerless. Yeah, And so
I don't blame I don't blame the societal zeitgeist of this,
Like I don't sure, but you know, it is hard
to spend money when you can't get out of your house. Absolutely,
and we need to sell fifteen hundred books a month
in order to make ins meat and order to savings

(33:13):
to do the whatevers right to be able to put
in enough money to have continuously have new books, et cetera.
And that year we hadn't hit our numbers at all.
In fact, we were relying on the savings that we
had built up because of the move, and so we
were making a lot of money, but we were not

(33:35):
making enough to make our bills. So like that savings
was slowly getting chipped away. Sure, and it was when
our savings, yeah, because okay, so it was thirteen months,
so it was a little over a year, so a
September of twenty twenty four, which was a year later
or a year and a month later of because we
got our keys August first of twenty twenty three anyway,

(33:58):
so it was a year and a month later, and
we were like, oh crap, we don't have any savings.
And so we got through the holiday season and realized
it was January twenty eighth, twenty ninth whenever, it was
late January, and we had only sold three hundred and
fifty books. That doesn't even come close to covering payroll.

(34:24):
Like my payroll is almost one thousand dollars a week.
That is three weeks of payroll, and there were like
five weeks in January, and not counting the rent that
I have to pay in my electricity and the other
bills that come with owning a business. And so I
went to social media and I was like, help me
save my bookstore. And people felt it because they felt

(34:50):
that powerlessness and they felt for sure how rough it was.
And then they saw this cute little pixie manic pixie
dream girl on their feed saying I have a bookstore,
Help me save it. And then you do some research
and you realize that there's a it's a queer bookstore
in Texas, or at least a queer owned and operated bookstore,

(35:11):
and we sometimes have queer books. I very specifically say
that because there are LGBTQ bookstores that sell only LGBTQ books,
and we are not one of those people. We just
happened to sell with what our clientele wants and what
we have the money for. So anyway, sure being very

(35:31):
specific in how I word things. Anyway, So by I
think it was February third or fourth, we had not
only made and sold fifteen hundred books. For January, we
had already sold fifteen hundred books for February nice, and

(35:53):
that we were able to hold that momento until I
think April excellent. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, and I will
say that like, yeah, I went to social media twice,
and yeah, my community rallied to say our shop twice.
But the underlying thing here, the underlying solution to the problem,

(36:16):
I guess is what I'm saying is or I guess
the underlying thing here. Yeah, the underlying thing here is
the community. I can go on social media and ask
for help, but that doesn't mean anything. No, absolutely not
like just because I'm a bookstore, like okay, that doesn't
mean anything. Like I could be an absolute bad person

(36:37):
and just and no one likes me. And if I
go on social media begging for help, everybody's gonna laugh
at me because I'm a bad person. But you know,
this really shows that the community believes in the mission
of the bookstore. They believe in us. They like us,
they like me, they like the bookstore, they like the
mission that we are providing here, right, and they like
it enough that they're going to share our story and

(37:00):
make our story go viral enough that even if they
can't because depression sucks, they can at least share the
story and they feel like they helped and they did help,
and it is it's it's a community. Yeah, And even
though the community might not be a tangible physical community,
they are there digitally and they're they're supporting us in

(37:22):
the background. And I will just say that this is
an absolute like, this is the like my community, the
community that surrounds the store, that that community is the
sole reason we're still here. Yes, because you know, yeah,
and that we're all a good bookstore and we love

(37:43):
a good resistance center and we love a good place
in the third place whatever.

Speaker 3 (37:48):
But like were digital community, I think that a lot
of people undersell that, you know. And and it speaks
to so much you saying that out loud, because I've
always said that my digital family has always been.

Speaker 6 (38:03):
As much or more of a family to me than
my blood family.

Speaker 7 (38:06):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
It started back twenty five years ago, and had that
digital community, those people have paid bills for me, those
people had saved me, those people.

Speaker 6 (38:19):
Have been there my shoulder to cry on.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
So I one hundred percent with you as far how
amazing just we can put our voices out there and
like minded, like like sold individuals who will support us.

Speaker 7 (38:36):
Yeah, so very very similar because like when I was
in college, I think very shortly after I met Corbin
or at least became friends, I came out as some
sort of queer and then I moved to us and
I was like, I'm queer and he was like okay,
and I was like, this isn't an issue. He was
like most humans are. Kinsey proved it, and I was like,

(38:59):
you know what, You're right, okay, and then I couldn't
stop hanging out with him because I liked him a lot.
But yeah, basically I was like I like this guy
a lot. So yeah again, I mean, we've been married
for five years now, so therapy is real. Like I
love a good therapy session. But we both got married,

(39:20):
like we moved in together, and then one month later
the pandemic happened, so like it was rough for a
hot second there, just for everyone, not just us. And
like I think I was in therapy at that point
in time, and I think that he was saw because
we were forced together in the apartment and like we

(39:40):
couldn't go anywhere. I think that he saw my therapy
journey and he was like, I want to do that,
and so like we both started getting therapy and like
compared to our other friends, I feel like it. You
could see it, if that makes sense. Like, no, not
to be mean, but like therapy works, y'all. Oh yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Uh. Actually Laura has has recently started the journey. Now
she's taking an extended step away from it.

Speaker 7 (40:11):
Just money, you know, I don't blame you because it's
expensive as shit. I will say that the freest piece
of therapy that I've ever done is I looked up
my Enneagram type and I went on the Niagram Institute website,
and I like, I found the one that called me
out the most. And then I looked and I looked

(40:31):
at that, and I looked at So it's the enneagram.
There's only nine types, but I would read them. You
don't have to take a test. Don't take the test.
I honestly would suggest not taking the test, but I
would read the first paragraph and figure out which one
calls you the f out. Because when I read my indiagram,
I was like, ah, I what, like I thought I

(40:54):
everybody thought that, and no it was just me. But
when I looked at my endeagram, and I looked at
the inn Gream Institute's like whole web page on that
indiogram type. I was actually able to unlock some things
in my brain and it was a free trip down
the therapy. Free self help, yes, free self help? Is

(41:18):
that indiogram and any of them? Pardon my language. I'm
just sharing a book title. This is the book title
it is. It's a whole series of books and it's
called unf your They have boundary I've heard of those. Yeah,
they have your anger like there is so many different
types of them. But if if therapy is out of reach,

(41:41):
because if money, those books are like less than ten
dollars each and they're about that big, like they're that
on kindel unlimited, they should be oh, look I have that.
Uh but yeah, it's uncure and then anxiety boundaries whatever,
you know. I think I think there's a forty different
books in the series. Wow, But the endiagram and those

(42:05):
book series is the cheapest therapy I've ever had. But
also talk therapy. Anyway, we're off topic again.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
It's okay. Half this podcast is banter. And in fact,
when Laura was going through her her therapy journey, we
at that time had a lady coming over to help
us out with a few things to try to get
Laura in a better place so that she didn't feel
like she was with some caseworkers. Yeah, but this one

(42:37):
came over and she was always so nice and so complimentary,
and she's like, look, I deal with people all the
time that can't seem to stand each other, y'all. She
comes over here and all we do in this house
is banter.

Speaker 7 (42:50):
Yeah, yeah, you was a stander and you're like, oh,
you're doing a good job.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Well, I was a stand up years yeah.

Speaker 6 (42:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
And I've been a game moderator and I've worked with kids,
and I'm a trainer for CBS.

Speaker 6 (43:07):
So we we took a lot in this house. There's
a lot of talking that happens.

Speaker 7 (43:13):
There's a lot of talking that happens in our house too.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
And uh, like some people will just hit a vibe
with like, uh, the guy that my daughter is dating
and I and I distress that not we have yours,
mine and ours, and so to keep them clear for
other people, I will say mine or ours or hersh

(43:38):
doesn't mean I love them any less. It's just an
easy way to determine who with who I'm talking about.
But yeah, my mine has a boyfriend that she started
calling her pet sasquatch because it's a good name, and uh, I.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
Mean, yes, she's two, and he's like sick three.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
He had gone to the bathroom, and it would it
had been I don't know, I guess an aromatic experience
without getting and so I was joking with him about it,
and I was like, well, what'd you name it? Human
rights violation? And I laughed for probably five minutes.

Speaker 7 (44:21):
I thought, yeah, yeah, I would also for five minutes.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
We had a caseworker over here when that happened the case,
and she's just like you, people are so nice? Can
all my clients be like you? And I'm just like,
I might be neurodivergent. I don't know. My kids keep
telling me that I am, and I'm like, what looks
like yes? My children keep saying I have a tism

(44:49):
and they are definitely wrong.

Speaker 7 (44:53):
I mean it's the I have a touch of it.
It's okay, I've got a touch of theism.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
So, uh, you want to.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
Take our next section for so, do you have anything
else that you wanted to talk about?

Speaker 7 (45:09):
Thoughts on all the kinds of books and events that
have drawn growth, praise and pushback. I mean typical like events.
I mean, I don't really have anything to say on
that topic, but my thoughts on the role of indie
bookstores in today's culture were I mean, I think that's
why politicians are targeting us, like you don't see them
targeting other industries. Like the only thing I want to

(45:32):
do is get books into the hands of readers, Like
that's all I want. And if my clientele just so
happens to be LGBTQ, or they just so happen to
be minorities or people of color or et cetera, like, fine,
they can be whatever they want, because this is America,
like and embrace You're weird.

Speaker 4 (45:52):
That's our phrase.

Speaker 7 (45:54):
And I think that the awesome phrase is Boston weird.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
Okay, all right, And the book.

Speaker 7 (46:04):
Burrows phrase is in Brash are weird?

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Gotcha? Yeah? So Bostin.

Speaker 7 (46:10):
Yeah, the keep Bostin weird was a slogan. I think
that was done by the Austin Chamber of Commerce or
some small business like they were pro small business and
they were like keep Austin weird, like keep Austin local,
keep Austin small to avoid all of the big corporations
coming through. Now that is still a thing. Several places

(46:33):
in Austin. But now that it's becoming more East California
and like Silicone Hills area, there's a lot more corporations
than small businesses because small businesses have gotten priced out.
But I think that this is an entire area that

(46:55):
was raised with that culture of keep Austin weird, and
now that the normal people cannot live in Austin anymore
because of how pricey it lit, like how it were
one of the most expensive cities to live in the
United States, like at least top ten, right, and that
is hard for a lot of people. So people who
were raised in Austin, who live and breathe Austin, who

(47:16):
were just you know, they were literally born, raised in
the darkness spread by it bane quote here. They are
now moving out into the suburbs. They're moving out into Flugerville,
into Round Rock and to Leander Cedar Park. Kyle Buddha
butda Beda, butda Beda.

Speaker 6 (47:37):
That's how it was.

Speaker 7 (47:38):
We lived.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
We lived in the Central Valley of California, and it
was ninety minutes east of Well it was ninety minutes
east of Sacramento. No, ninety minutes south of Sacramento, ninety
minutes east of the Bay Area and about ninety minutes

(48:01):
north of presnow so very central, centrally located, but it
was rural area where you had to drive twenty minutes
to get to.

Speaker 7 (48:09):
The neck to get anywhere. Yeah, it's and even that,
it is really crazy.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
From those areas where your rent is twenty five one hundred,
five thousand dollars for a month for a three bedroom,
you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, they would come
and stay in the Central Valley and run the housing
prices up there.

Speaker 7 (48:33):
Because they're so used to paying five hundred thousand dollars
for Yeah, and now they come in and they're like, oh,
rent so cheap, and the landlords hear that, and the landlords, yeah,
they go dollar signs, just like Scrooge McDuck. But I mean, hey, capitalism,
We live in capitalistic society. I don't necessarily blame them.
But also because it's a whole culture of this, I

(48:56):
it is hard for the culture of people who love
Austin and who want to stay in the Austin area.
So like, that's why I live in Flickerville, is why,
like I moved to Austin. I lived in downtown Austin
for a hot second, and then I got displaced, as
people who tend to live there do. But that's why
I'm in Flugerville. And my oh there it is okay,

(49:18):
but yeah, that's why I'm in Flickerville. But it's basically,
like I keep on saying, and all of my neighbors agree,
is Flugerville is what Austin was twenty five years ago.

Speaker 6 (49:27):
Yeah, the not the.

Speaker 7 (49:28):
Bubble, not the Silicone Hills, but the weird, the local,
the indie, the grunge, the punk the weirdos, the hippies,
the people who went to Austin to be themselves and
to be weird. Those are the people that went to
Hippie Hollow and named Hippie Hollow Hippy Hollow and did

(49:49):
a like there's a whole drama on Hippie Hollow in Austin.
Like the hippies in the sixties and seventies were like, Hey,
this is our nude beach, and the cops were like,
m you know it's not. And for decades the hops
fought the hippies, and the hippies kept on coming back.
Finally they legalized that area where it's now Hippie Hollow.
Like that, that's the resist that's the culture we have

(50:11):
in Austin of like, I'm gonna do what I want
and I'm going to do it respectfully, because you know,
respectfully fu and honestly, Hippie Hollow is the only nude
beach in Texas that's public property.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
So.

Speaker 7 (50:25):
You know what, the hippies kind of have something going
for them. But like, that's the culture of Austin and
now none of us who are trying to resist can
live here. But but that makes the suburbs even more
special because now the suburbs are where the weird happens,
and the suburbs are where the culture happens because people

(50:46):
have money to have culture, if that makes it. But yeah,
I think the bookstores are one of the last places
in which the culture wars aren't going to be hit,
even though politicians like are trying to regulate us out

(51:07):
the waws. But bookstores are third places. Bookstores are older
than libraries. Libraries only came about in three hundred BCE,
right with the Library of Alexandra, and any nerd is
just now going, oh no, heartbroken. Yeah I know, but
the first library ever was the Library of Alexandria, and

(51:30):
that only came about three hundred BCE bookselling is one
of the oldest and most badass professions and politicians us
like there's obviously something special about us. So yeah, I
do think that indie bookstores are going.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
I think indie bookstores are rock.

Speaker 7 (51:48):
I think indie bookstores are rock too. But I do
think that because we are independently owned, Like that's the
whole thing of indie bookstores is indie independent. We're independently owned,
Like we can do whatever we want respectfully. Uh, And
I think because we can do whatever we want respectfully,
we have a community that can rally around us, and
we can hear, and we can hear what our community

(52:10):
wants and then we can pivot to what they want.
So if our community wants us to have a certain book,
I can pivot real easily. Or if our community wants
us to have a underground space that allows for women
to get abortions, but like you know, have a not

(52:30):
in the space, but like you know underground. Yeah, no,
I got you to abortions, like it's the Jane Network
from the seventies, Like we have planned B in our bathroom,
like we and we have information on how to get
the Plan C pill because that's what we do is
indie bookstores. Yeah, our community and whenever we need and

(52:51):
if that means being a resistance center, that's what we're
going to do.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
I got you right. It's one of the things I
like about being an indie podcasters. I am able to
look over what ads they stick in and go, well,
we don't want this, we don't want that. I don't accept,
for example, write political ads which ten years ago I
would have been. Ten years ago, it wasn't what we

(53:16):
have now.

Speaker 7 (53:17):
Ten years ago, I'm not gonna I mean, I can
say this because so I'm a precinct chair in the
Democratic Party with Travis County, so I have to be
very careful with what I say. And I've told them
this before, but like ten years ago, I was not
a Democrat. I was Republican. But at that time, it
wasn't human rights versus fascists. It was right, where should

(53:41):
we put this road? And how should we tax our people?
And now it is we're talking about things that shouldn't
even be politicized, like regulating bookstores and telling women what
they can and cannot do with their bodies, and telling
a person, regardless of their gender identity, who who and

(54:01):
whom they cannot marry. Like, these things should not be political.
They are not political in other countries, but yet they're
political here. It's because they're not political at social control, right.
I mean, I'm saying what everybody's thinking.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
No, no, look, we say it all the time. But
like I said, what we don't ever accept anything from
the right. But we also, like I told them, no
travel ads from Texas.

Speaker 7 (54:29):
Yeah, do not do not travel to Texas. Do not
spend your money here unless it's through your local indie bookstores.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Yeah, and you can get order books online but bookshop
dot org. But yeah, there's uh. I just it's one
of the things I like is being able to go no, no.

Speaker 7 (54:51):
I don't like having a tower to say no and
to say yes yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
So what I like, Paul and being for me.

Speaker 7 (55:00):
I like the title of queen. It's I like being
queen but for you depending on your gender expression, king
or sovereign whatever. But I like being in charge. I
like being queen because that's the part of it is independent.
I can do and say and whatever I want, you know,
as long as I'm being respectful.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
Right, I'm the nerd father. So that's that's my titles,
you know, like Godfather, but nerd Father. That's me.

Speaker 7 (55:28):
Oh no, I'm I. I could recommend a few books
that's basically how to be a geek dad and how
to embarrass your kids in doing so. But it's basically
like how to guide for geeky parenting. It's wow, I
know you've got I mean, I know you've got the
parenting down. They're mostly like novelty books. They're mostly novelty

(55:50):
books because they're just basically, how can you insert a
nerd quote into a parenting situation? Like that's what they
usually are.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Well, okay, Like I spent some time when I was
a stand up comic as Kansas City's only fat male stripper,
and there's video of that on YouTube. So that's a
point of embarrassment right there.

Speaker 11 (56:15):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
Plus I was in a movie again around the same time,
a movie called The Period. Now, this movie was about
a woman who had a never ending period and so
a group of cultists had kidnapped her as their fertility goddess,
which didn't make a lot of sense to me. But

(56:38):
I didn't direct the movie. I just got paid to
act in it as one of the cultists who were
our costume was furry bunny masks, and we were completely nude.
And I used to have that bunny mask up on
the wall.

Speaker 6 (56:53):
Story bunny mask.

Speaker 7 (56:55):
Did it give you nightmares?

Speaker 6 (56:56):
Like play master?

Speaker 3 (56:58):
Kind of like very like bubbly, kind of horror ish
bunny with like scurry, crazy fur coming up like.

Speaker 6 (57:10):
It was not a cute bunny. It was very wicked ish.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
And I used to have that up on the wall.
So my children are well used to being being embarrassed,
thoroughly embarrassed. Good. So yeah, after yeah, that's uh, that's
my history. I'll probably delete most of that.

Speaker 7 (57:31):
Yeah, I mean as it is. Okay, do you want
me to start with my section?

Speaker 1 (57:37):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (57:37):
Yes, okay, Sorry, we've been so long.

Speaker 4 (57:40):
Okay.

Speaker 7 (57:41):
The Piece I Bookstore in nineteen sixty four, Ed Sanders
was a new father. He was the lead singer of
a group called the Fugs and used a mimograph machine
to produce a weekly literary magazine, as home publishing looked
a little different in the sixties. However, he didn't have
a steady stream of income coming in and desperately needed

(58:02):
one jake because the way fathers do, right, So he
opened the Piece I Bookstore in New York city. Mhmm, yeah,
that's that's a choice cost that cost of living.

Speaker 12 (58:16):
It was a store he filled with rare books, books
that spoke to the counterculture of the time. While he
ran the store, he performed with the Fugs, and at
one point publicly held an extorcism of the Pentagon, although
an unusual one, probably not found in any Catholic text
on the subject.

Speaker 7 (58:32):
Although I would want to figure out how he did
that and do it again.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
There's videos of it online.

Speaker 7 (58:39):
Justus to the White House.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
Oh why not? Well, just budgs Hannegon will give you
the exorcism. I was going to say, Oh nice.

Speaker 7 (58:48):
I mean, it's not like they're Catholic. They're not like
holding the secret back right. The piece I became a
place where independent artists and thinkers gathered, folks like filmmakers
Shirley Clark, poets like Alan Ginsburg and Peter Orlow's key
to other bands like the Velvet Underground. The place was

(59:09):
a mess with very little organization, and Pete's mimograph sat
in the corner of the area where Pete would print
Hiss Literary magazine. At some point, everyone who was anybody
in the New York counterculture movement passed through p size doors,
at least according to Pete. In nineteen sixty six, pace
I was rated by police for distributing obscenity, and several

(59:30):
books were rounded up to prove this point. In later interviews,
Pete has mentioned that he had been publishing a magazine
for the art to the mail. That magazine was called
Fu and yes, we've answered the magazine's name to keep
the PG. Thirteen ring. The Post Office never blame Deny. However,
when he was taken to trial, he was found not

(59:52):
guilty of distributing pornography and the result trial. The Resultant
trial was the last major obscenity trial in America and
resulted in broader interpretations of the freedom of speech.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Which have lasted up until recently, up.

Speaker 7 (01:00:10):
Until the Tattered Cover versus the State of Colorado. But yes,
but yeah it is mostly has held. But that the
the Tattered Cover versus the State of Colorado was versus
does a book? Is it? Books are required to hand
over customer information and the answers, now, so it's a

(01:00:34):
different type of freedom of speech. But like, yes, this
is I'm very glad that this that this is held.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
So far, gotcha cool?

Speaker 7 (01:00:44):
Well, let's I know lots of histories.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Let's pause here for a word from our fellow content creators.
Today we're hearing from.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Sky in Blue Yep and which is talking to Oh,
the trust is out there.

Speaker 5 (01:01:00):
Follow us.

Speaker 13 (01:01:01):
We interrupt this program for a special report by WKMU.
We will return you to your scheduled programs shortly. Can't sleep, Nita,
can we? And who are we?

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
Well?

Speaker 13 (01:01:14):
I'm Sky and she's Blue, and dial in as we
explore everything from the twelve hundred year old structure go
Beckley Tepe to UFOs, conspiracy theories and bizarre stories from
around the globe. Tune in at WKMU dot podbean dot com.
That's WKMU dot podbean dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
It's concludes our broadcast day.

Speaker 7 (01:01:39):
I'm Maddie and I'm Amber and we're which is talking Taro.

Speaker 6 (01:01:43):
And we're bringing you all things above.

Speaker 7 (01:01:46):
Every Tuesday and Thursday, twice a week for your magical pleasures.

Speaker 6 (01:01:49):
Join us as we dive into aliens.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
CRYPTIDSI super in Nashville.

Speaker 11 (01:01:58):
Because that's the kind of witches are, So join these
high energy witches twice a week.

Speaker 7 (01:02:04):
Come sit a spell and see why.

Speaker 12 (01:02:05):
Will be your favorites.

Speaker 10 (01:02:12):

Speaker 6 (01:02:14):
Okay, So is this plane co intel pro?

Speaker 5 (01:02:19):
That?

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Yeah, because it's short for covert intelligence programs, So I
would go co intel pro. But I would rather.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
Say all the words than to try to make up
a new one. But I appreciate the I appreciate the addy.

Speaker 7 (01:02:33):
There so.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
Covert intelligence program and it was an illegal series of
projects created by Herbert Hoover to infiltrate political groups and
other groups that were deemed at the time to be subversive.

Speaker 6 (01:02:54):
Co Intel Pro.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
Often used informants as the FBI targeted what they thought
were dangerous groups. One such place infiltrated by co intel
Pro was Hakims in Philadelphia, founded by Dewad Hakim. It

(01:03:17):
focused on black authors, Islamic content, and holistic health. It
was the first black owned bookstore in Philadelphia and was
a huge hit with the local black community as well
as those interested in Islamic literature and holistic health. However,
it was targeted in the sixties by co intel Pro

(01:03:41):
because Hoover believed its connection to a black Islamic man
marked it as a hub of black extremist which is insane,
and the place was surveilled illegally for many years.

Speaker 6 (01:03:59):
Furthermore, the co Intel pro.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
Often arranged for the subjects of its surveillance surveillance to
be intimidated into closing their doors of our lovely government,
creating one last place for extremism. Jak Kim is still
around doing business as Hakim's bookstore and gift shop these days,

(01:04:24):
and they still provent books for prison inmates.

Speaker 6 (01:04:27):
In Washington, d C.

Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
The Student Non Violent Coordination Coordinating Committee or SNCC, which
has a key civil rights group at the time, which
was a key civil rights group at the time, had
just witnessed the death of Martin Luther King Jr.

Speaker 6 (01:04:48):
Four members of the SNCC.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
Just after King's death founded the Drum and Spear, which
was a bookshop that focused on blackfe authors, black subjects,
even fiction with black characters. In those days, it was
about education and they were so focused on bringing in
these great authors and wide ranging subject material. There was

(01:05:17):
no decision made on who could or couldn't shop there.

Speaker 6 (01:05:22):
As one of the owners said, what.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
Was the point of going to all the trouble if
they were going to then argue about who was or
wasn't black enough to shop there. Everything from African studies
to books about people like Robert Small's and Malcolm X
could be found within its walls. African American poets, authors, playwrights,

(01:05:49):
and political figures gathered there and they addressed students from
nearby schools.

Speaker 6 (01:05:56):
It was a place mostly of.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Community and learning, and a few years after it was
created it was targeted by co intel Pro as a
hub for black extremism.

Speaker 6 (01:06:08):
For goodness.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
And in fact, how Hoover took the spear part out
of their name as an existential threat. In reality, it
was a place where people gathered to meet authors and icons,
have meetings about political activism, and learned something about black culture.

(01:06:31):
It even briefly published its own works under the name
Drummond Sphere Pressed Press. It outlasted co intel Pro by
three years, closing in nineteen seventy four due to financial difficulties.
But the closing of co intel Pro has not ended

(01:06:51):
the questionable attacks on books on book club due process.
In the days following nine to eleven, a book club
in San Francisco found one of its members to be
possibly an FBI plant.

Speaker 6 (01:07:07):
And I just want to say that it absolutely floors
me that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
Some of these bookstores were attacked and were considered problems,
yet didn't we just a few shows talked back talk
about religious call that published books.

Speaker 7 (01:07:30):
Yeah, and yeah, there's still there are many. There are
many religious calls that publish books.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
I just absolutely being attacked and singled out. And yet
they are religious calls who are abusing women and children
and they're allowed to just continue business, to make free
enterprise as much as they want.

Speaker 7 (01:07:51):
That just absolutely is. Yeah, there's a lot of religious publishers,
like and they and they come in all the time.
They're like, we're pretty small, we only have a few titles.
And then like they say a few titles and I'm like,
we're good, We're not a religious bookstore, thanks, Yeah, and
then they and then I'm like, usually if somebody says

(01:08:14):
like they're religious called, I'm like, I mean, I've been
described as highly suppressive, and they usually leave you alone. Usually,
And I say usually because the last time I said that,
he was like, who told you that? And I'm like,
I the guy, I don't know, he said us six
months ago, and then it was not.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Yeah. When I was younger, I used to go to
a diner fairly regularly that was right next to a
scientology center, and of course they were always out by
the diner trying to get you to come in to
add Yeah, so whenever the scientologists would come over to

(01:08:55):
talk to me, I would say, no, thanks, guys, I'm
spiritually clear, and they would get sad looks on their faces.

Speaker 7 (01:09:02):
I don't know I means, but I'll uh.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Well, the whole point of scientology is to get your
colors as close to white as it can be. And
me and some friends of mine, we're talking about it
and was like, well, what's higher than white? Spiritually clear?

Speaker 8 (01:09:19):
Got it?

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
So, yeah, that's that's where it comes from.

Speaker 7 (01:09:22):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
I have read a lot of books in my life
and found out a lot of weird informations.

Speaker 7 (01:09:28):
As it is when you read a books, Like when
you read books just in general, you're like, oh, oh, now,
I know this really weird fact about like colonial Willansburg
for no good reason. I'm real grade, I'm real fun
of parties.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
Okay, let's take a moment for a word from our sponsors.

Speaker 7 (01:09:47):
On that note, well, let's hear from our sponsors.

Speaker 10 (01:09:57):

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
Okay, that being said, let's move on. From the earliest
days of bookstores, they have been the centers of cultural
resistance makes a certain amount of sense. If, for example,
one goes to an occult bookstore, one is going to
meet others of similar interests, and news important to that
community will get discussed its standard operating procedure. Thus, whether

(01:10:21):
by accident or design, bookstores become a place where cultures gather,
and when those cultures are opposed to the powers that
be or the status quo, then bookstores become places where
ideas and ideals get shared and cultural resistance gets passed around.
One such example as the Eighth Street Bookstore in Surprise, Surprise,

(01:10:44):
New York City. Like p SI, it was a haven
for Beat poets like Ginsburg and Orlovsky, but it wasn't
about selling books. It was about creating a space where
the Beat generation and later the Hippies could adapt and thrive.
It was home to counterculture, and there are those who
said its native tongue was resistant resistance and its trade

(01:11:08):
was ideas. In fact, these spaces would defend literature. Alan's
Ginsberg wrote and performed a poem called Howell. The poem
deals with both drugs and both heterosexual and homosexual acts.
It was gathered into a collection and sold at City
Lights bookstore in San Francisco. Shortly thereafter, the bookstore was

(01:11:31):
rated and members of the staff were arrested for disseminating
obscene materials. City Lights defended its publication of the poem,
and its employees eventually becoming before a judge who ruled
that Howell was not obscene. Since then, Howell has become
lauded as a great example of beat poetry and is

(01:11:51):
taught in colleges across the country, or at least it was.
We don't know what's being taught under the Trump administration.
In the nineteen twenties, Francis stell Off, I hope I'm
tinents saying that right founded the Gotham Bookmart in New
York City. She founded it to sell and promote works
of avant garde fiction. One such piece of fiction at

(01:12:11):
the time was the James Joyce novel Ulysses, considered by
many at the time to be obscene. Why nineteen twenties.
I guess I've read the book. It's it's like fifty
Shades of Gray. It's not that good.

Speaker 7 (01:12:30):
Yeah, well, because it was. It was written in a
time in which only men could write. But I mean
James Joyce's novel Ulysses like is a classic. It's like Middlesex.
Everybody knows it, and they knows it's that he knows it,
and they know it has taboo topics in it. But like,

(01:12:53):
I don't, I don't understand why you're like trying to
shut bookstores down because of a subject that makes it
a little uncomfortable. I just don't get it right anyway.
I didn't mean to cut you off in the middle
of it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
No, No, it's fine. Francis could smuggle the book into the
country in pieces, assemble it, and sell it because she
was a smart cookie. The New York Committee Against Vice
would buy the book and target her as a purveyor
of obscenity. However, the book would not be banned, and
Gotham Bookmark would go on to have a salon atmosphere

(01:13:26):
where avant garde riders would read and discuss their works
with eager audiences.

Speaker 6 (01:13:34):
So now we'll take a minute for another word from
our sponsors.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
And remember, if you don't like all the words from
our sponsors, you can become a Patreon member and get
ad free versions of the show, and those go up
before the regular version.

Speaker 10 (01:13:55):

Speaker 6 (01:13:58):
And that or the three dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
So that's right, so sobbing it too.

Speaker 9 (01:14:03):
Yet, whenever bookstores have been operating in cultures where censorship
is common, they have always they have found ways to
help the resistance. Many of these time honored ciphers and
codes gained a life of their own in the spy industry,

(01:14:24):
but many are still used or electronically and digitally adapted
today in the spy industry. But many are still used
or electronically and digitally adapted today. The best known of
these is the Book of Cipher, also called the Beel cipher. Essentially,

(01:14:48):
the writer would create a note.

Speaker 4 (01:14:51):
Create a note using.

Speaker 9 (01:14:53):
Page line and word numbers from a specific book. The
key to deciphering the code would be that both the
creator and the cipher of the recipient. The creator of
the cipher and the recipient would both have to have

(01:15:16):
the same edition of the book. Books of poetry, cookbooks,
and romance and romance novels, among others, have been used
this way. The book may seem innocuous, but the sender
and receiver, and often the bookseller themselves, knows why the

(01:15:39):
book is kept in stock. As near as we can tell,
this began in the eighteenth Holmes story one, where Holmes
deals with someone associated with his foe Morarity. We covered
the folklore Sherlock Holmes a Night in one hundred and

(01:15:59):
eighty nine.

Speaker 4 (01:16:00):
If you're interested, we'll wait.

Speaker 9 (01:16:05):
In the American Civil War, the Beil cipher was quite common,
with the solution being some version of a Bible. Books
like Jane Eyre and Gone with the Wind were used
for the same purpose. The pinprick method, tiny holes under

(01:16:26):
specific letters to spell out a message, was used in
the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. These books could be
left in public or pasted hand to hand in bookstores,
especially in cities like London's London, Paris, and New York,

(01:16:51):
where arnarchist, anarchists and socialist groups operated underground. Some bookstores
even had marked books copies with subtle subtle annotations or
dogyard pages that signaled a message or meeting location, tiny

(01:17:13):
holes under letters that spelled out.

Speaker 4 (01:17:15):
Secret words some hidden in copies.

Speaker 7 (01:17:17):
Or.

Speaker 9 (01:17:20):
Oh my God uh signaled a message or meeting location.

Speaker 4 (01:17:27):
Tiny holes under later letters that spelled out secret words,
some left.

Speaker 9 (01:17:31):
Hidden in copies of Dickens's move AI Assistant, I don't
need you in copies of Dickens.

Speaker 4 (01:17:38):
Or Gorky, Gorky. I don't like that.

Speaker 9 (01:17:44):
At sympathy sympathetic bookstores, these books could be placed face
out in particular to sex in a particular section to
signal pickup. Bookstore owners sometimes participated. Other times, we're unwinning

(01:18:06):
in intermitted.

Speaker 4 (01:18:09):
In intermediary, intermediary.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
So yeah, okay, let's take a moment for another word
from our sponsors.

Speaker 4 (01:18:22):
I think this is our longest episode ever.

Speaker 1 (01:18:25):
Yes, yeah, we're trending that way, but it's okay.

Speaker 7 (01:18:28):
We're We also went off topics several times, so.

Speaker 6 (01:18:31):
Okay, they like that. That's always Dean's favorite part.

Speaker 10 (01:18:42):

Speaker 1 (01:18:44):
The people that love us love us for the banter.
I mean, there are other other shows that do history better.
I'm an amateur historian at best, but like I tell people,
I do this and I write, I have so many
ways of not making any money.

Speaker 7 (01:19:00):
Yeah right, I mean my joke. So I actually got
my degree in I went to Texas Tech University and
I got my degree in history and anthropology with a
minor European studies. But that's doing me no favors right
now because I'm doing nothing in the industry. What that
really means is I can look at a historical text

(01:19:22):
and go, hm, just nice rather academically, you know, and
that's it. That's it. But my joke in college was
like they ask what I wanted to be when I
grow up, and I was like, oh, I'm just going
to be a Starbucks Brest.

Speaker 14 (01:19:36):
So it's fine, Like I mean, I mean, it's I
ended up not actually, if I get free coffee out
of that, I I yeah, seriously though, but hopefully the
idea is with the bookstore, we do bookstore and coffee
at one point in time.

Speaker 6 (01:19:53):
That that sounds amazing. I will definitely have to come visit.

Speaker 7 (01:19:57):
Oh yeah, I'm thinking, like, there's I have a whole
business plan. I if you send me your email later,
I can send it to you so you can see
what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
You have it.

Speaker 6 (01:20:07):
I sent this link to you.

Speaker 7 (01:20:09):
Oh okay, cool? Then cool, There's it's formatted weird, but yeah,
I got you. Okay, cool, Okay, so now my turn
to read my part, all right. In the Cold War,
Berlin and Prague bookstores were known to serve as dead
drop locations. A customer might leave a book with a

(01:20:32):
hollow compartment or a coded note tucked between the pages,
still done in indie bookstores in the United States to day,
but not for clandestine reasons. I have stories the next customer,
which retrieve it hours later. In some cases, booksellers themselves
were part of the network, using their inventory to pass
along intelligence or resistance literature. The CIA, the Stazzy.

Speaker 1 (01:20:57):
I believe that's the Stazzi, Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:20:59):
Stuzzy, and I six were all known to use bookstores
as dead drop zones and divided Berlin. A customer asking
for a misprinted, hemmingweight copy might actually be signaling a handoff.
Hallowed out books with microfilm or encrypted notes were occasionally
used as props or literal containers. Some bookstores even had
secret drawers built into reading desks. Sometimes resistance literature would

(01:21:23):
be wrapped in fiction. In repressive regimes like Picinies Pinochet's Chile.
Franco's Spain bookstore circulated ban manifestos inside false dust jacket
novels The Tale of Two Cities might hide anti fascist pamphlets.
In a parroteid era South Africa, bookstores carried innocent looking

(01:21:45):
children's books that functioned as code books or meeting prompts
for underground educators. Even today, some activist bookstores used coded
language in newsletters or even listings to avoid detection or harassment,
and during times of unrest, books with banded content are
sometimes disguised with false cover short titles, an old trick

(01:22:06):
with new relevance Even now. Underground activist groups have used
book titles in social media or encrypted form posts point
members to secret discussion threads. There's documented use of QR
codes hidden in indie zines or poetry collections that lead
to restricted discord channels, and some modern restricted groups have
revived the book's cipher technique with ebooks set to a

(01:22:29):
specific page layout view or view layout. Page view layout.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
Page view layout. Yeah, if you lay your page and
view out correctly, you will see the cipher that they
have sent you in whatever copy of the book they
get they've sent.

Speaker 7 (01:22:45):
Nice.

Speaker 4 (01:22:46):
Those are nice.

Speaker 1 (01:22:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:22:48):
I was like, the amount of books that I have
gotten in that have hallowed out containers, Like people try
to hide things in books. And I will tell you
the amount of money that I have found in books
is not a lot, but it's enough to go. Hmmm,
maybe check your books before you donate them.

Speaker 1 (01:23:06):
Wow.

Speaker 7 (01:23:07):
Yeah, like hundreds of dollars have been found at least,
but I mean I've been doing this for four years,
so like that's not a lot as seeing as how
many books we sew yearly, but yeah, the amount of
things that come in. Like there was a little hole
it was the book was still readable, so it was
like in the margin of the bottom. And when they

(01:23:29):
donated it, it had a key in it, so like
someone had a house key or some kind of something,
but it was like maybe a bi clock. But yeah,
like it came in with the key in the cipher
in the Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:23:44):
I don't know why it was while.

Speaker 7 (01:23:46):
You could still read, like there was no page, there
were no words that were cut, it was just in
the margins. But yeah, there was a key stuck in it.
And I was like, huh, there was also one. Thank goodness,
they took the thing out, but they had hallowed it
out and they put velvet the inside, and you could
tell that they had put an adult toy in it,
and that was the oh no, yeah, oh my goodness.

Speaker 15 (01:24:07):
So it was yeah, so it was like it was
the toys hide out. I see, I see, yeah, that
was the yeah because of yeah, an that's the like
I said, stories, that's amazing.

Speaker 7 (01:24:23):
I have, Yes, I want to know like what they
did not They did not have the toys. The toy
was not in the book. I will say that. But
now because of how small, because it was like this
big you.

Speaker 6 (01:24:36):
Know ones or bin wah balls.

Speaker 11 (01:24:42):
Yeah maybe maybe, but like it was it was probably
about the size of a postcard but like maybe two
inches deep, so like it wasn't super big, but it
was enough that I'm.

Speaker 7 (01:24:54):
Like, well, this is interesting. Yeah. And it was like
History of Women in Medicine was like the title, and
I was like, oh, so it's one of those books
you want to forget about. Yeah, that's right. I'm not
surprised that people have, but like dust covers anyway, I yes,

(01:25:16):
and I'm glad. Yeah, the next one more. Yeah, and
I see the section and I actually know the person
that's leading the ab F e Filhimina anyway, that's awesome.

Speaker 6 (01:25:29):
Yeah, all right, so we're gonna take one more moment
for a word from the sponsors.

Speaker 10 (01:25:43):

Speaker 3 (01:25:45):
So the ABA has documented a rise in harassment, threats,
and vandalism against bookstores due to the books that they
carry or the events that they host.

Speaker 6 (01:25:59):
These aren't isolated incidents. They often are.

Speaker 3 (01:26:03):
They often are escalated into coordinated campaigns involving hundreds of calls, protests,
and even physical damage. The ABAS or American Booksellers for
the ABA's American Booksellers for Free Expression or ABFE initiative,

(01:26:26):
supports stores facing these attacks and offers resources to them
to help them stay resilient. In their annual meetings, the
ABA has emphasized that bookstores are more than retail spaces.
They are community anchors and defenders of the right to read.

(01:26:47):
In twenty twenty four alone, over three hundred new bookstores opened,
many of them BIPOC owned, and the ABA doubled it's
ABFE team to combat book bands and censorship. They even
produced a handbook on the right to Read and launched

(01:27:10):
a hotline for booksellers experiencing harassment. In a bold visual protest,
the ABA launched the box hashtag boxed Out campaign.

Speaker 6 (01:27:21):
Where bookstores covered the windows with cardboard and slogans like Amazon,
please leave the dystopia to orwell.

Speaker 3 (01:27:30):
The goal to highlight how shopping habits affect local bookstores
and to reassert the role as guardians of diverse voices.

Speaker 6 (01:27:41):
And local culture.

Speaker 1 (01:27:44):
That brings us to our summary and our final thoughts. Kelsey,
do you want to start? You're the guest?

Speaker 7 (01:27:53):
Sure? I actually like so with the education sessions that
the American Booksellers Association that's the ABA. They are. They
actually give resources at almost every conference about like if
you are if somebody is trying to book like band books,
or they're trying to censor, you call this number and

(01:28:15):
they like make sure that if you go to conference
that you have this information. And so like this is
one of the resources that I love that the ABA
has because even if I decide to sell like The
Handmaid's Tale or the book the the hand by the
I think it's called the Handbook to the Right or

(01:28:36):
Handbook of the Right to Read, is what they do.
It's they have a whole book that they do that
they sell about book banning and censorship, et cetera. But
they're resources that they provide. Even though I haven't used them,
I am glad they're there because it gives me the
courage to sell innocuous books like The Handmaid's Tale or

(01:29:01):
George Orwell's nineteen eighty four, Like it just gives me
a little bit more courage because I know I've got
people backing me. So, but there were a few things
I did want to, like mention, like Hakims, like when
you were going on the Hakims.

Speaker 4 (01:29:19):
Like talking about a Hakim bookstore.

Speaker 7 (01:29:21):
I was just like in my seat, just like freaking out.
I was like, this is so unjust and so unfair.
And I actually muted myself so I could scream into
the void. I was just so I was so upset,
but I wanted to mention how upset I was about
the Hakeem bookstore. It was just that was emotional through

(01:29:45):
this whole.

Speaker 16 (01:29:46):
Yeah, and like I knew all of this information because
you know, I've done this get out for a while,
like putting it, yeah, putting it in the way that
you've done it was just like ugh, just it reminded
me all.

Speaker 7 (01:30:00):
Of the bad things that humans have done to each other.

Speaker 6 (01:30:02):
And that's right. He would have been losing his mind.

Speaker 7 (01:30:10):
Oh yeah, and when he reads it, he's.

Speaker 6 (01:30:12):
Going to be so angry.

Speaker 7 (01:30:14):
He's going I don't blame him for cousin.

Speaker 3 (01:30:20):
He's very serious about well he was just saying the
other day and unfortunately he's not here to put this
out there as part of his final thoughts, because I
feel like something that he would say as part of
his final thoughts is that he currently doesn't feel like
he has an expression of freedom in this country transgender youth.

Speaker 6 (01:30:40):
He feels like his freedoms are.

Speaker 3 (01:30:42):
Not being validated by his elders, they're not being validated
by his government, they're not by society around him, and
he's so frustrated with that as an American transgender youth
that he doesn't feel any reason to celebrate the fourth
of July.

Speaker 7 (01:31:03):
Like, I don't blame him, like honestly, so I'm not
just for context, Like I don't struggle with gender dysphoria,
at least not on the regular, but like I have
friends that do, and so like I empathize, sympathize, I can't.
I don't really remember the right word for that, but
I like I understand, Yeah, I understand that. Like, oh
that's hard. I might not understand understand, but like I

(01:31:25):
can put myself in that situation, and like I don't
understand what that is, like, but I mean, why why
are we so up in up arms up? Why are
we so up in arms about somebody's gender expression? It
is a gender expression. I am a woman. I was
born a woman. I have female genitalia, but not that

(01:31:47):
it matters because you were so obsessed with some young
person's genitalia. Now I, as a sis gendered white woman,
need to say, yes, I have female genitalia. Now you're
picturing it because it's this what it is. It's disgusting,
it's shurty, it's gross, and it what it is is gender,
like it's social control and like I'm a woman, identify

(01:32:09):
as a woman, and nobody's.

Speaker 4 (01:32:11):
Upset because it makes sense.

Speaker 7 (01:32:13):
And I'm saying that in quotes because sometimes you just
cannot argue with somebody who has been fred pop propaganda.
And when they don't know they've been fed propaganda, it's
really hard to be like, hey, bro, you've been fed
propaganda and no, it's what the Bible said, and like no.

Speaker 6 (01:32:30):
And I was raised in that. I was raised in
a religious household.

Speaker 7 (01:32:34):
I was also raised a religious house.

Speaker 3 (01:32:36):
Manager who was saying anti I was saying homophobic things that.

Speaker 6 (01:32:43):
Were clushed out.

Speaker 7 (01:32:46):
I mean, like I was also raised tea.

Speaker 3 (01:32:49):
Yeah, I was the God made Adam and Eve, not
Adam and Steve saying rude, crude, homophobic things.

Speaker 6 (01:32:57):
Yeah, that hasn't been drowned into me.

Speaker 7 (01:33:00):
Those things were put into my head as a child. Yeah,
I said some pretty off color things myself when I
was young because of just various groups of people. And like,
I look back on that time of my life now
and I'm like, I don't even feel guilt or shane
because it was put on my head, like it was
put in my brain. But like, I guess I've done

(01:33:20):
my work as a person and I realize that everybody
is just a human being being human exactly, and like why,
Like I'm still so. I was also raised religious, and
I'm still kind of religious, but I was also I've
also been able to and I have the privilege of
finding a church that doesn't care what God I believe in.
They don't care what my gender expression is. They don't

(01:33:42):
care what partner is beside me. They don't even care
if I tithe or not. What they care about is
that I know that I am loved, I'm worthy, and
I am respected. And what they care about is that
everybody in that congregation feels loved, worthy and respected. And
a lot a lot of what they do at the

(01:34:03):
tithe money, like ninety percent of what they do at
the tithe money is they put it back into a
food pantry and a cold shelter that they have whenever
it gets cold here for our unhoused friends. And a
lot of what they do during the ledge session is
standing up for and being political activists for people who
can't necessarily be an activist for themselves. And honestly, that's

(01:34:25):
what Jesus preached exactly, like exactly I don't know, but
it was Jesus loves the little children of the world.
And that's why I have a bookstore is because, yes, yes,
this is why I have a bookstore. Is because I
was told growing up to love one another as God

(01:34:47):
loved you, because I was raised religious, and the only
way that I can do that in a secular society
is to have a bookstore. Because everyone wants to feel loved, worthy,
and accepted. And guess where you find that usually bookstores.
Because a lot of people in this society have religious trauma.
And so even if you find a church that is

(01:35:08):
like understanding just the fact of well, this religious trauma
that I might have, like just the word church puts
shivers down many people's spines. Yeah, but like I feel
like this is my worship of whatever God might be
out there of being the voice of my community and
giving them the community space and if I need the help,

(01:35:31):
reaching out to the American Booksellers Association, Freedom of Expression
in Philamina and the hard working stuff at the ABA
for that.

Speaker 1 (01:35:40):
But like.

Speaker 7 (01:35:42):
I will say that a lot of the bookselling industry
is based on resistance, Like the City Light Bookstore. They
have City Light Publishing, and they're very like outspoken about
how they're the radical, Like they had this whole scrutiny
in the sixties seventies about being rated, and they're still

(01:36:04):
around publishing books and they're not like since they're not
like graphic or anything, but houses like just the beginning
and honestly something as a bisexual, something with both heterosexual
and homosexual things in it, Like I'm interested in reading
this thing now, like you just had to say the
magic words zip together. But City Late Bookstore, I'm glad

(01:36:25):
that we touched on them because they are still loud
and proud and they're still doing the work. I haven't
really heard anything about Hakeems or peace I, but I
know for a fact City Late Bookstore is still doing
their stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:36:38):
But those are the comments.

Speaker 7 (01:36:39):
That I had because I wrote them down during the
show because I write everything down, but.

Speaker 6 (01:36:46):
Good, I should be more like that.

Speaker 9 (01:36:49):
I mean, I don't know any other community that could
have pushed through that sort of to say it, quite
frankly bolls back in the day or even now, because
I'm sure people still have to deal with stuff like

(01:37:10):
that now, especially seeing where we are these days.

Speaker 1 (01:37:16):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 17 (01:37:16):
Chelsea talked about how the legislature in Texas is trying
to ban certain books, and the books that they want
to ban are books that her people because she runs
what she calls a witchy little sort of She's an
LGBTQ person who runs this with witchy little independent bookstore.
No books that her that her customers want are the

(01:37:40):
books that Texas wants to ban.

Speaker 4 (01:37:41):
That is pooh. See, Kelsey's so cool. I missed out
on such an opportunity. Hopefully she comes back so I
can talk to her.

Speaker 1 (01:37:50):
Yes, she wants to come back.

Speaker 4 (01:37:52):
She's very she was very impressed. She's impressed with y'all.
Imagine what she's gonna send. What she talks to me.

Speaker 1 (01:38:00):
Well, you're basically one of her clients. Yeah, your clientele.

Speaker 4 (01:38:06):
Definitely always Yeah, just the way they persevere doing stuff
like that, especially like.

Speaker 9 (01:38:15):
It's very very nice to see, especially like during a
time like that. I feel like they were a lot
more They had to be a lot more resilient, especially
since the views that people had on the certain things
that they had, like owned or put in the bookstores

(01:38:39):
that they had and they just gave to.

Speaker 4 (01:38:45):
Customers. I feel like, I don't know, I feel like
it would have been a.

Speaker 9 (01:38:48):
Lot more difficult Bevan to just get something like that out,
especially with how they trut they treat people just in general.

Speaker 4 (01:39:00):
I don't know. I don't have much more thought to
it than that, but I don't know.

Speaker 9 (01:39:05):
I guess I could say I'm happy that it was
it ended up like that. I really hope to see
more of this, especially especially like in these days like
where you have to sort of persevere a lot more.

Speaker 4 (01:39:25):
I don't have much more to say about it than that.

Speaker 9 (01:39:30):
So there's my final thoughts.

Speaker 6 (01:39:35):
Did you want to go next? Paper?

Speaker 1 (01:39:37):
I can? I learned a lot this episode, just because
I would never have come up with this topic on
my own, So thank you to Kelsey for that. Because
when I sent her the show list, she came back with, Hey,
could you do a show on this? And I was like, sure,
like and and that is something I do want to include.

(01:40:01):
Ninety percent of my research came from the ABA, so awesome.
I mean I found some others here and there, and
a couple of like Encyclopedia things, and and and the
fun the image of the the Thugs and Shirley Clark
and the velvet underground exercising a pentagon pentagon which at

(01:40:23):
first I thought was a comedy, but no, they were
fairly serious. But yeah, overall it was the ABA's own
research that I found. So I'm just presenting what other
people found.

Speaker 7 (01:40:37):
Yeah, and I'm I love how the ABA, like they've
said up before, and it's been said by many people
in history. I think the last person that said it
was like Winston Churchill or whatever. But the whole phrase
of those who do not learn history are doomed to
repeat it, like they the ABA. When they tell us
things like that and they go down these history lessons,

(01:40:58):
they are always like, we need to or in history
where we are not doomed to repeat it. And I'm
sitting here as a history or in the back going yeah,
like I cannot go high pitched because we're in a
book selling and everybody's taking notes. But I know all
of this because I've already researched it because I it's
a tism. Man, I got a touch with the tism.
But anyway, I'm just glad that the information's out there,

(01:41:19):
and I'm glad the ABA has resources like this.

Speaker 1 (01:41:22):
But and you Bibe.

Speaker 6 (01:41:26):
So I have a couple of things.

Speaker 3 (01:41:28):
I want to start off by thanking Kelsey for being
here with us, because you are phenomenal.

Speaker 7 (01:41:34):
Oh, I've had a blast. I'd love to come back
if y'all have me.

Speaker 6 (01:41:38):
You'll have to hang like this more often. A couple
of things. Gosh, so much, There's so much in this
episode that I don't even know where to start.

Speaker 1 (01:41:51):
It's for it.

Speaker 7 (01:41:52):
Just it was such an emotional we hits.

Speaker 6 (01:41:55):
Home into how we need to listen to the voice
around us.

Speaker 7 (01:42:03):
Especially those who might not be speaking the loudest.

Speaker 3 (01:42:06):
Exactly exactly, and we always encourage that with this show.
And I hope that you, Kelsey, will do as we
say every week and share with your friends and your
family and some people who you think will get something
out of the show, because I'm never surprised by how

(01:42:28):
far a few good words can go when they get
in the right ear. You know, it's like reaching out
to that community that you have found. I've always said
that that's what our show just needs to get in
the right years of the right people, because we do

(01:42:49):
have that family dynamic and that community dynamic that you're
talking about. And so I just hope that this gets
other people to more like you and go out and
do the research and stuff, because there's a lot of
things out there that you don't realize that have happened.

Speaker 7 (01:43:08):
Mm hmmm. I'm right there with you, like it is.
It's just it's a lot and I had I was
gonna say something I now I can't remember. It's okay,
it's not your fault. It is not your fault. I
very much enjoyed this episode. I'm glad that we did this,
and I feel like it's very timely. Like I don't

(01:43:28):
know when this episode is gonna come out, but like
we're filming the filming it. We're recording it right before
the fourth of July, so it feels very timely for
like us.

Speaker 1 (01:43:39):
And I will have it out tomorrow afternoon.

Speaker 3 (01:43:43):
Yeah, oh wow, So it'll be out there if we
record on Wednesdays and then we post every Thursday.

Speaker 7 (01:43:48):
Oh nice, Okay, but yeah, I am. I'm glad that
we I was able to come and do this, and
I'm just glad that, like I have been put in
a position that I can do this. I will say that,
like our community is probably the thing that is the
thing that I'm grateful for the most. But we all have.

(01:44:12):
Oh the thing is I think that was the thing.
It was humans are fairies. The thing is with humans,
humans are fairies. So you never know what we're gonna do,
and you never know what we're here, and you never
know what we're gonna like and not like.

Speaker 1 (01:44:28):
Just it.

Speaker 7 (01:44:30):
You gotta find your fairies, man, but bligger belt so
we spell it puff fairy with a P. But yeah,
you gotta find your fairies.

Speaker 1 (01:44:41):
I love it that you're you're telling this to a
guy who used to play a game called Changeling where
you played fairies.

Speaker 7 (01:44:49):
Kind of my my Instagram handle, although I'm not on
my Instagram all that often. Like if anybody wants to
follow me there, you can. I don't know why you would,
but you can. But my handle is the book puff
Fairy like with a P because I'm from puff Fluggerville.
But but yeah, no, humans are fairies. Like why if

(01:45:09):
you ask my name, Why do you want my name? Why?
Why do you want my name? Why? What are you
gonna do with it? No, you can't have it? Like
humans are fairies and then you tell somebody no, don't
do that, and they're gonna do it, and they're gonna
get and then they're gonna get mad at you and
you're like, I literally told you not to do it.
You did No fairies. Those are fair That's not human,

(01:45:31):
that's fairy, that's changeling. That's that is what's wrong with
this world is humans are fairies.

Speaker 8 (01:45:38):
I like that.

Speaker 7 (01:45:39):
We we talk about the human element, what about the
fairy element.

Speaker 1 (01:45:44):
Look, I played changeling for like ten years I and
then they changed the system on me, and I just.

Speaker 7 (01:45:51):
Oh, I hate it when they do that. And you're
like I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah, I get it,
and then you're just like, I have a touch. So
that is I'm going to walk away for twenty minutes
and then it's been twenty five years. Yeah, yea, yeah, yeah,
it's the Nerds by zenas.

Speaker 1 (01:46:13):
Well. That's our show. Actually about to run out of
recording time. This is the longest episode we've ever done.
Some of it will survive. That's our show. Thank you
for listening, Thanks for being a member of the fam.
Thanks always to Arthur, Laura Blue, and Lexi, and of

(01:46:33):
course to our special guest Kelsey Black. If you are
in the Flugerville area, please stop by the Book Burrow.
It is a lovely place filled with lovely people and
lovely things to learn and as we hashtag every week,
let's learn something. Thanks to the Book American Booksellers Association

(01:46:54):
for all their collected research. As I said, ninety percent
of this episode was based on that. Thanks to Bill,
Paige and Aaron, I will run those out for you
real quick. Bill is Bill Barrant. That last name is
spelled b e h r e n d T. He
does our theme music. If you need music for a
project or someone to perform at an event, he's your guy.

(01:47:17):
You can reach him at Bill Barrant at SBC global
dot net. Thanks to Paige Elmore of the Reverie Crime podcast,
who also has a canvas addiction that she has combined
with her own Arthur's artwork to do some logo art
for us. Thank you, Paige. Thanks for keeping us in
the Good POD's top one hundred and join us next

(01:47:38):
week for our show on author and Lucy Bye Bye,

All Episodes

Episode 255 Shelf-Life - A History of Bookstores as Resistance Centers with Kelsey Black

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

24/7 News: The Latest

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 255 Shelf-Life - A History of Bookstores as Resistance Centers with Kelsey Black