Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I'm Dean, I'm.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
The dad, I'm Laura, I'm the mom, and I'm Arthur.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I'm the son, and together we are family replied. Breathe
and some pasto not a good thing to do. Pesto
is not good in the lungs, I hear.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Well, only in the stomach.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Housekeeping real quick. A few ways you can help us
out financially if you'd like one, our merch store on
Tea Spring, and there we sell high fashion, beautiful items
like T shirts.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Coffee bags, hoodies, and stickers, all with our own Arthur's
amazing artwork, high fashion ready to wear or use, and that's.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Available on our Tea Spring store. If the merch is
a bit too pricey, for just a dollar or three
dollars a month, you can sponsor us on Patreon and
everybody who sponsors us on Patreon gets ad pre versions
of the episodes first, and they get special episodes like,
for example, the episodes where Arthur is Uncensored and Unfiltered,
(01:53):
and our video episodes of the Family Role podcasts are
only for our three dollars listener, So that's another thing.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
You can do.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
If you cannot afford Patreon can always slw us a
dollar or two through buying me a coffee. If you
enjoy the show, one thing everybody can do, please share
it on social media, Share.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
With friends, share it with family.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Wait that one, and you could also leave us a
five star review. If you don't enjoy the show, please
keep it to yourself.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Weird noise goes here.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
So what are we talking about tonight, Dean?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
What are we talking about tonight?
Speaker 6 (02:36):
Well, we're talking about a guy who was born Henry McCarty,
died William Bonnie, and lived as Billy the Kid, a
wiry outlaw with a cherub's face and a trigger finger
that rewrote the rules of frontier fame.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Whether he's a folk hero or a cold eyed killer
depends on who's telling the tale, But one thing certain
kid carved his legend into the scorched earth of New
Mexico with charm, chaos, and a six shooter. From the
Lincoln County ward to his final showdown with Sheriff Pat Garrett,
Billy danced between truth and tall tale, leaving behind a
(03:15):
legacy that's part time novel, part ghost story. So saddle
up because we're separating fact from folklore in this Phil
you Hand partner episode of the Family Plot podcast. Alrighty
then old ready then So we frankly know very little
about this Wild West legend's early life. First of all,
let's talk his name. He was not born Billy the Kid. Instead,
(03:40):
he was born Henry McCarty, most likely on November twenty third,
eighteen fifty nine, in New York City, New York City.
Get a rope an old bit, I was gonna say.
The older folks listening will get that reference. The younger
ones will just blinket me, waiting for next explanation, much
like Arthur is now So what sources suggest He was
(04:01):
born on September seventeenth, but that was more than likely
to make him twenty one at the time of his death,
which seemed more romantic to the storytellers than having him
die in his teens. His mother was Catherine Divine McCarty,
a strong woman of Irish Catholic descent, who likely raised
Henry as a single mom. Our best guests at a
(04:23):
father is Patrick McCarty, but he seems to have died
or at least bailed, while Billy was still in diapers,
So that's cool not. Henry's brother Joseph, was born in
eighteen sixty three. While Billy was still in short pans,
Catherine took him west, settling in Indianapolis, Indiana, where she
was diagnosed with tuberculosis. She was a loner there. She
(04:47):
met William Antrim in eighteen sixty eight, and by eighteen
seventy she moved to Wichita, Kansas, bought a plot of
land for her family what some might call a family plot.
What I did there? Did you see it again? Now?
And she became the only woman among one hundred and
twenty four signers of the petition to incorporate the town.
(05:10):
Talk about bad butt, pioneering feminism in action, Go Billy
the kid's mom. From there, the family moved through Colorado,
forcing Billy to break up with then girlfriend Bell Star.
Total joke. They never met, but you can find out
all about her in episode two fifty eight. Check it out.
We'll wait and see what you did there? They were
kind of contemporaries after all. But then he actually settled
(05:33):
in Silver City, New Mexico in eighteen seventy three, which
is where Catherine married William Antra. They lived there for
about a year with Catherine opening a laundry before passing
on September sixteenth, eighteen seventy four, from tuberculosis. Following her death,
Antrum sold off the family's property and abandoned the boys
to go mining in California. Henry was about fourteen at
(05:56):
this time.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Well, you know, in that day and the age four
team was considered a.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Man I think might have been. But I'm just saying, so.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Are young to be on your own.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I love Arthur, but Arthur is sixteen. If something were
to happen to you, I'm not gonna go, well, I'm
going to California and leave Arthur here with LEXI.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
One would hope not.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
And that's pretty much what he did. Gotcha with Billy? Huh?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
You know, I've got all these coffee spells going on.
You could totally grab that and use it for a sounder.
Because of the mom having.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Why don't we take a moment instead for Arthur's corner?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
It was time to get back to the show.
Speaker 7 (06:44):
Probably a better idea.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Here.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Allow me to present Arthur's Corner.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Well, hello folks, by Arthur, Hi, Hi Arthur, II, how
are we doing today?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I'm a little scared to eat any more of my dinner.
I finally got my coffee under control, finally got the
pesta out of your throat. I guess, so, geez, Louise,
I'm okay.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I'm pretty good. My Arthur is doing well in school again,
so I feel like I ad conquer something.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I'm doing something ha ha ha.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
And then I got dinner done in short order, just
about haw it done as you walked in the door. Honestly, Yeah,
So I feel like.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
That is on top of it this week. Mom is
definitely not It's it's kind of hard to do night
shifts when you're not.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Used to them, and you definitely are not a night out.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I am not a night person, but I'm taking one
for the team because I am dedicated to my job.
And that's what they like to say.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I hope so, because if they didn't like to see that,
then what would be.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
The point huh? I still yeah, I like my job, though.
Were you doing? He's being dad.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
He's playing with you, being autosted, playing with the things
that he can reach that are playable.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Pretty much, that's pretty much what your dad does.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
I got scared for a second. I felt my class
when he turned on.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Anyways, I am doing decent.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
I recently got an app that it used to use
back and I'm taking care of myself more with the app.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah, we love those apps. Is that the one that
you talked about previously on the podcast. Yeah, remember you're
talking about I think It's cold.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Is this one?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
It's Finch. It's bench bench is so cute.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Fnch is so cute like my Little, my Little, my
little penguin has It has a squirrel costume.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Very nice. So it encourages you to drink your water
and brush your teeth and wash your face and take
a shower.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
We love all of those things.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
That is awesome. There's more goals, but they're not here
right now because I already completed though. Some way to go.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So that's the fin chat art to recommend because it's
a way to plan your day.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yes, and take care of a cute little birdie birden.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
And you get to take care of a cute little
birdie bird that might sing you baby shark because it
has no clue.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
It sings you, baby shark. It sing me baby shark.
The other night. Doo doo doo do doo do doo
doo doo doo doo doo doo doo.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Do doo, doo doop doop Laxea shark do do do
do do do next sea shirt.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
But yeah, I still have to drink water, brush my teeth,
wash my face, and take a shower. Okay, And they're
coming back in two hours, thirty two minutes and twenty seconds.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
What the ants? No, coming back from what Saturn? They're
they're on Saturn.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
No, their name is Saturn. They're adventuring right now and
they're gonna tell me more more about what they found.
It's like growing a little pets, like.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Ice when your little baby went on a field trip.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
Yeah, it's going on a field trip the baby Saturn's.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, that's a name. That's the name.
Speaker 7 (10:13):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
They've found the food's corn cherries, they've found water, and
the music they've found so far as baby Shark.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I see, so you can find more music, thank goodness. Yeah,
it's not just Babby Shark. Baby Shark is a lot.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
But yeah, you have your own options on talking talking
to them, and you can do like you can teach
them how to feel about certain stuff and.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Very they're very cute. Not sponsored by the way, No,
we are not sponsored by Finch. We could be Finch
could reach out. That would be a cool thing.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
If FNCH wanted to reach out, they could.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Yeah. Absolutely, But you just like the app. I do.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I do enjoy the app and it does help me
get stuff done.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
I have able to been able to get my assignments
done in the past two days so far. Yeah, French
keeping me on track.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
That's awesome to hear.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Let's see, and how's your your significant other?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
They're good. They just came back from camping this weekend.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Camping or lamping, because they're two very different things.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
And I really can't do either.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, I've told you my idea of roughing it right.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Hotel room with basic cable, Yep.
Speaker 8 (11:35):
That's pretty pretty fair, as long as there's free WiFi. Yeah,
if they're not really free WiFi, why you even bother
If you have to pay for your WiFi, that's dog
doodle doodle.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Hey, there's a hotel in South Dakota, or.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
There was, it's been a while since he's.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Been to South Dakota. They would let comics stay there
cheap because comics would be going from Spearfish to Idaho
and you'd have a day off and hotels are notoriously expensive.
This place would cut you a deal. But it was like,
if I were going to take the family camping, That's
(12:16):
where I'd go because they could camp outside the hotel
and I could look out the window and see them,
and meanwhile I could watch movies and relax in the
hotel room.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
That seems fair. We could have done something like that
for our children, who all thought that they were outdoorsy.
Speaker 9 (12:33):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Blue and Blue Endemics both wanted to do camping. Lexi
thinks she wants to do camping, but she's confused.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
I'm gonna say, Lexi, if I took Lexi camp, she
would want to come home for about.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Two hours five minutes.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
What do you mean, there's no Wi Fi. Let's go
home five.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Minutes outside the buds. I like the outside I've set up.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I like it as long as I can come back in.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I'm not sleeping outside star anyway. That's me.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
Let's see what else. I've been watching a D and
D campaign.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Who are you wing? I can't remember the name of
the channel.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Well, you're not listening to Family Role, So no, I'm.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Not listening to Family Role. Where I'll find it? Okay, okay,
the creators of it is the Legends of Avantress, Legends of.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Very nice, and I like it.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
It's funny, funny, it's good nice, funny campaigns, funny dungeon masters.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
The dungeon Master is good. Dundon mistress.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
My man.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Oh, it's run by a girl.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
One of them are the other one I'm gonna listen to,
isn't I see? It's run by somebody who plays in
her campaign.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Very cool?
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Ah, pinge poke Yowe me a coke?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Mmm, you don't know, you know?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Coke? See what I can do?
Speaker 4 (14:03):
I've been drawing more recently, Yeah, especially on myself.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Yes, and that the art on yourself is excellent. I
drew it upside down. I drew an animal on my
leg upside down somehow, and.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
It looks great.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
For some reason, it looks really good. Turned out.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
It turned out because you're a talented artist, do you goof.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
I'm a talented artist, all right.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I sent money to the hungry child to feed them money.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
See, if we'd done what I suggested and not fed
the kids wouldn't have this issue.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I told you, it does not work that way.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
No, that just kills them.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
It doesn't There's no way to cut.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Off the food supply when they are in utero. I've
explained this to him multiple times. I even offered to
pull out a medical text and show.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Him, and you didn't take it, No, because the whole
thing is meant to be funny, and your mom takes
it very seriously.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I take it seriously.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
But he's the one, seventeen years later, still bringing it up.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
It amuses me, just the back and forth, just the
the banders on point. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, Arthur's going to get whiplash from watching us Dan straight.
So what else is going on in your corner, kiddo?
Speaker 4 (15:19):
I'm hoping to get more into my actual business on
Etsy because I've been crafting more often and I've actually
started making stuff out of clay and like doing mask
making and stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Once you get that big head here's done, people will
you know and you'll have some idea of what it
takes to finish it? People, can you know ask you
to make them for suit aheads? Yeah, but I mean
I hate to disappoint him. I want to say that
would probably be at least a four hundred dollars project
because the basis is three hundred dollars. Yeah, yeah, Arthur's
(15:57):
got to make something off.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah, I'd like to make up and off of it.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
The fur prices. They're also praying expensive out the roof. Yeah,
you're spending baseline one hundred bucks on burn even if
it's just two colors.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
You know what they say the roof, the roof, the
roof is on fire.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
If it's one color, then it's probably going to be like, we.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Don't need no water. Let the mother hummer burn, burn,
mother hummer burn.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
But yeah, person making is expensive. But I hope that
if I do start making that the stuff does turn
out well how I want it to.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Arthur, you're very talented. I don't know why you don't know.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
That because I don't think I am nuts.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
We call that a self fulfilling prophecy, kiddo.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I mean, it's not like I'm not trying.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
When you think you suck, you do, I'm just saying
it's a selfie.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
I don't suck.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I don't think you do. I think you're quite talented.
Matter of fact, I could put that picture that's on
your knee up on our Facebook page, and and I
guarantee if people will love it, I.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Can put it upon our Facebook page.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I already put it on my Facebook, but I.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Must say anything else. No, this is the rest of
the way. I'm boring.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
You're not boring. You just you do these weekly updates, Arthur.
There's not always going to be a lot to update.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
There's not a lot to update today, same.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Date, you know, same weeks, different stuff, or different week,
same stuff.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
It's okay.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
So let's put in your music in collapse and close
this out, and then you want to talk about the
early crimes and the antrim kid.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
It was time to get back to the show.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
And did his best to take care of himself and
his younger brother Joseph, a year after their mom died
on September sixteenth, eighteen seventy five, who was arrested for
stealing food. This wasn't some big criminal plan. It was
probably just a death rip move to feed himself and Joseph.
He spent a few days in jail in Silver City,
(18:06):
New Mexico, before getting out just ten days later. He
had He and a friend named George shaper shaper Ye
robbed a laundry run by a Chinese a laundry run
by a Chinese family. They stole some clothes. They stole
clothes and two pistols Henry got locked up again, but
(18:28):
escaped two days later by climbing up the chimney. Absolutely
not that would blind you.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
That image is.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Somehow both sad and cartoonishly impressive.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
After escaping, he tried to reconnect with his stepdad, William Antrim,
who gave him a little money and kicked him out.
Henry came back later, stole more clothes and pistols pistols, and.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Left for good.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
He headed to Arizona Territory, worked as a ranch hand
for him hooker, and teamed up with the criminal name
John R.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Mackie.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Together they started stealing horses from soldiers. Around this time,
folks started calling him kidd Antrim because of his clean nickname.
Around this time, folks started calling him.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Kid Antrim because of his clean.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Because of his clean shaven face, good looks, and how
young he was. Dad says it was probably already his nickname,
Like did you hear about that Atrum Kid he robbed
his own dad.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Now.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Now, horse theft back then was a serious deal. If
you stole a man's horse ran out on the ranch,
you might be leaving him to die.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
No water, no shelter, no way to get help.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
There was no horse insurance, so if your horse was stolen,
you were just out of luck. Farmers could didn't plow,
trade or travel without their horses. And while the law
didn't require hanging horse thieves, frontier justice often did so.
Kid Antrum's horse stealing jays weren't just teenage mischief. They
(20:17):
were cold, dangerous work. They were the cold dangerous work
of a young.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Outlaw, which is one of the first things I found
in this that I did not know. I always assumed that,
because they taught that, it's talked about in a lot
of different places, that horse thieves were hung regularly because
it was so dangerous to steal a man's horse. Right, Well,
I always thought that was just the law.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
No, it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
The law in most places didn't require horse thieves to
be hung, but frontier justice did because of how dangerous
it could be.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, absolutely makes total sense. So let's take a minute
and hear from some of our fellow content creators, and
then I will take this notion.
Speaker 9 (21:02):
From the heartland of America, where the great plains stretch
far and wide, lies a region shrouded in mystery, where
the unsolved and the unknown linger. Welcome to Cold Case
Kansas the true crime podcast that delves into the unsolved
cases across Kansas and its surrounding states. This podcast was
(21:23):
born out of a personal quest for justice. My friend
Christa Martin's thirty four year old unsolved case was finally cracked,
and in it we found answers. Now we want to
help others. We'll explore the crimes that have haunted communities
for decades, searching for answers and seeking justice. Join me
(21:43):
on this journey as we shed light on the cold
cases that have gone unsolved for far too long. Cold
Case Kansas, Seeking Justice, one case at a time. You
can find us wherever you stream podcasts. You can also
find us on TikTok, threads, Facebook, Instagram. If it's social media,
(22:04):
you can find us there.
Speaker 10 (22:22):
Like and subscribe. Welcome to shop Joby, our online store
where you can explore a unique collection of products, including
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Speaker 1 (22:58):
Welcome to you Can't create streaming on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
The school bus arrives at Camp's wikiwiki for its annual
summer camp.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
What the hell is your problem? Lady? Do you need something?
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Or are you just trying to ruin my vine?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
My name is Tony. Are you hurt?
Speaker 4 (23:21):
You?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Kids shouldn't be out here? Played with fire?
Speaker 6 (23:25):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Does anyone else see that creepy lady? Following the val or?
Speaker 11 (23:31):
Is it just me?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yo?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
What is that noise?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Remember?
Speaker 5 (23:36):
God is watching?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Welcome to Camp Cringe, Man, We're so screwed.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
A few episodes every twenty fifth of the month.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
It's time to get back to the show.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Always like hearing from Cold Case, Kansas and Camp Cringe.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
They always amuse me.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yes, absolutely, So let's talk about the Lincoln County War.
It began in eighteen seventy eight in Lincoln County. That's
the name New Mexico. And while it's called a war,
it really was a brutal turf battle between two rival
factions fighting over some cattle contracts, dry goods, and political power.
(24:30):
Think Deadwood meets The Godfather, but with more dress dust
and fewer vowels nice spid.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
On one side was the.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
House, also known as the Murphy Dolan Faction, Businessman Lawrence Murphy.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Businessman Lawrence Murphy and James Dolan ran the only general.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Store in town and how lucrative government beef contracts. They
were backed by the Santa Fe Ring, a notoriously corrupt
political machine, and protected by Sheriff William Brady, who was
firmly in their pocket. Opposing them was the Tunstall Tunstall
(25:20):
McSween faction, led by John Tunsall, a young English entrepreneur
who opened a rival store and bank, and partnered with
Alexander McSween, a lawyer with a spine. To protect their interest,
they hired Billy the Kid as a crew or Billy
(25:44):
the Kid and a crew of branch hands who became
known as the Regulators. Billy was working for Tunstall when
Tunstall was murdered by a posse aligned with the House
and that Lithopea. The Regulators swore revenge.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
And thinks escalated quickly. On April Firth, Oh, I'm not
fooling you.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Eighteen seventy eight, they amberged and killed Sheriff Brady and
his deputy just days Later, on April fourth, they confronted
Buckshot Roberts at Blazer's Mill, a shootout that left regulator
Dick Brewer debt. The war reaches climax in July of
(26:32):
eighteen seventy eight, when mcsween's.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
House was surrounded and burned. Billy escaped, but McSween was killed.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
When smoke cleared, Lincoln County was scorched and lawless, Billy
emerged not just as a fugitive but as a symbol
of resistance to corruption, a legend growing even as his
options shrink. If you haven't figured out know yet, this
(27:01):
is the true story behind the movie Young Guts, Give
a Lot Less Hollywood and less less Eyelighter.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Also Without Rock.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Ballads by John bon Jovi back off of by John
bon Jovi.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Babe, what is wrong with you? Sir?
Speaker 1 (27:20):
It's butt Rock. I'll tell you that he is butt
Rock some of us.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Some of us here actually enjoy bon Jovi. Okay, but
that's actually a thing. But Rock is actually okay, yes,
but he's calling out my artists. I know he doesn't
like bon Jovi. We've had this conversation before. But he
doesn't need called John out on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
He plays butt rock. It's a thing.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
But rock doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
It's just butt rock.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Okay, it's I still feel like he's being called out.
I'm just saying, probably partially knowing him. But yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Well, let's take a moment for a work from our sponsors,
and maybe we can get over this, this hatred of me.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Maybe maybe I can get over being buttered about the
butt rock. Hello, Pie, it's our sponsor girl.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Hey, sponsored girl, what's up? I hod you? So you
have appeared?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Should we get back to the show. Yeah, okay, thank you,
sponsored girl.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Does everybody feel sponsored?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I feel so sponsored?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Thank you?
Speaker 1 (28:40):
So uh, let's pick up where we left off with
At the end of the Lincoln County War, Billy and
a handful of surviving regulators, plus a few outlaw wannabes
they picked up along the way, formed a loose gang
that operated out of Fort Sumter sorry Fort sum and
(29:01):
last Vegas, New Mexico. Not that Vegas. Billy would have
loved neon and slot machines, but it wasn't a thing yet.
They rustled cattle and horses from wealthy ranchers, cattle barons,
and government contractor. Meanwhile, the press had figured out the
stories about the Kid, Billy Bonnie, or the Prince of
the Pistoliers, depending on which scandal sheet you grabbed, sold
(29:24):
like hotcakes. Billy himself was a good looking young man
of eighteen or nineteen, literate, fluent in Spanish, reportedly kind
to children, and known to return borrowed horses. Locals often
protected him, seeing him as one of their own, a
scrappy symbol of resistance against the rich and corrupt. But
(29:46):
newspapers weren't interested in nuance. They spun tales of a
fearless outlaw or a robin hood of the Southwest, depending
on the angle. That helped build the myths of Billy
the Kid by blending his alias and exaggerating his skill count,
claiming he shot twenty one men by age twenty one,
which was almost certainly false. During this time, Billy wrote
(30:09):
to Governor lou Wallace, offering to surrender and testify in
exchange for a pardon. They met in secret stage to
fake arrest, signed papers, and then Wallace ghosted it. Bill
followed up with a second letter, still polite, but with
the unmistakable tone of I did my part and you're
the one playing dirty. He even hinted that Wallace could
(30:31):
come find him, but warned he'd be armed. As for
the supposed friendship between Billy and Pat Garrett, pure Hollywood,
Garrett was a former buffalo hunter and saloon keeper Fort
Sumner was small, so they likely crossed paths, but they
weren't pals. And now the stage is set unfortunately for
(30:52):
our stories.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
In so let's take a pause for another word from
our sponsors. Keep in mind that if you don't like
taking these sponsor breaks, we can help you out with that.
For just a one dollar or a three dollar Patreon member,
either one, you get a add.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Free episodes of our podcast. You also get access to
some awesome extra perks.
Speaker 10 (31:22):
Hello.
Speaker 5 (31:22):
Hi, I don't know if you'll hard calling in the kitchen.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Probably not, probably not.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
No, yeah, but I came in here like you did.
Speaker 5 (31:33):
If y'all don't feel sponsor, you gotta feel sponsor.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Okay, well, I feel sponsored.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Thanks for coming.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
I feel sponsored sponsored, bestie.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Now let's get back to the show. Very nice. I
like it.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
In eighteen eighty, Pat Garrett was elected sheriff of Lincoln County,
and those who had helped him get elected gave him
a clear mandate to wit get Billy the kid, so he.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Set out to do just that.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
In November eighteen eighty, Garrett wins the election and is
sworn in his sheriff. He wastes no time. He's deputized
early and starts building a posse. By December fifteenth, eighteen eighty,
Governor Lou Wallace isn't that the same one who cheated
him out of the deal puts a five hundred dollars
(32:29):
bounty on Billy's head. That's a hefty sum, and it
signals that the kid is no longer just a nuisance.
He's a political liability. That five hundred bucks would be
worth just over fourteen thousand dollars today. Garrett begins tracking
Billy and his gang, using informants, setting traps, and leveraging his.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Knowledge of the terrain. Nothing like a sleazy politician.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Billy, ever, slippery, avoids capture four weeks, however, in December
twenty On December twenty third, eighteen eighty, Garrett's posse corners
Billy and his gang at Stinking Springs. It's a poorly
chosen name unless it's not near Fort Sumner. After a
(33:22):
tenth standoff, Billy surrenders. He's taken to Santa Fe, then Masilla,
where he's tried and convicted for the murder of Sheriff Brady.
Billy is sentenced to hang on May thirteenth, eighteen eighty one,
and transferred to Lincoln County Jail, guarded by two deputies.
(33:44):
Billy was being held in Lincoln County Jail awaiting execution
for the murder of Shill Sheriff William Brady. He was
guarded by Deputies J. W. Bell and Robert Robert Ollinger,
both of whom had reputations for being rough and, in
(34:05):
Ollinger's case, downright kroll, bless you, thank you. Billy was
shackled and combined, confined to the second floor of the courthouse,
which doubled as the jail. On April twenty eighth, eighteen
eighty one, while Bell was escorting Billy to the outhouse,
Billy slipped out of his shackles, grabbed Bell's own pistol,
(34:28):
and shot him. Bell staggered outside and collapsed. Billy then
ran upstairs, grabbed Ollinger's shotgun, which Ollinger had left leaning
against the wall, and waited. Hearing the gunshot, Ollinger rushed
back toward the building, Billy leaned out the window and
(34:48):
reportedly said hello, Bob, before blasting him with his own shotgun,
killing him instantly. Billy then freed himself, completely, armed up,
and broke out of town, stealing a horse and vanishing
into the new Mexico landscape. The courthouse still has a
bullet hole, now sealed behind pexaplexiglass, believed to be from
(35:11):
Billy's escape. The deaths of Bell and Ollinger made national headlines,
and Billy's legend exploded. He wasn't just an outlaw anymore.
He was a ghost in the machine, a symbol of
defiance and cunning. The final showdown Fort Sumner, July fourteenth,
eighteen eighty one, Garrett got a tip that Billy was
(35:35):
hiding out at the Maxwell Ranch in Fort Sumner, a
place Billy considered safe. He had friends there, spoke fluent
Spanish and blended in easily. Garrett and two deputies arrived
quietly and waited in the shadows. Late that night, Billy
entered the house, possibly looking for.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Beef in the kitchen. Yes, really, where's the beef? What
were you on when you wrote these notes?
Speaker 2 (36:06):
My goodness, I think you are on a sugar high,
flashing back to the eighties much.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
He saw a shadowy figure and reportedly asked and s
who is it?
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Garrett fired, Billy was shot in the chest, just above
the heart, and died instantly. There was no dramatic shootouts,
no last words, no duel at dawn, just a single
bullet in the dark. Garrett laid Or claimed he recognized
Billy by voice and silhouette, but some witnesses disputed the details,
(36:45):
and Garrett's own account, ghost written in the Authentic Life
of Billy the Kid, has been called out for exaggeration
and self promotion. Billy was buried in Fort sumnerth though
the grave was washed out in a flood in nineteen
oh four and its exact location remains uncertain.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
And now we have another word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
It comes to sponsor Goblin, the sponsor Goblin.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Hey, well you've be sponsored. Yeah, can we get back
to the show now.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, we have one more sponsor for your kids, And
Arthur doesn't have very very long on this one.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Yeah, this is a short so you might as well
hang around in Sponsor Goblin.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
PostScript Brushie Bill Cody. In the in the late nineteen forties,
a man named William Henry Roberts Batting, known as better
known as Brushy Bill Cody, claimed he was Billy the Kid.
He had he had the right age, matching scars, and
(37:55):
knew a lot about Billy's life, so much that he
even asked the governor of New Mexico for a pardon.
But no solid proof ever showed up, and Brushi died
in nineteen fifty still saying he was the famouite famous outlaw.
Some people think he was a clever faker, while others
(38:16):
might believe he might have been telling the truth. He's
buried in Hamilton, Texas, and there have been efforts to
test his DNA, but it's tricky. Billy's own grave was
washed away by a flood in for nineteen oh four,
and no one knows exactly where his body is. Without
a confirmed sample of from Billy's Billy or his mother,
(38:40):
Katherine McCarty, there's no way to compare. Brushie's story has
popped up in shows like Unsolved Mysteries and Expedition Unknown Kids.
The movie Young Guns to even ends with the idea
(39:02):
that maybe, just maybe he really was Billy the Kid.
The listream lives odd because the facts are fuzzy, the
DNA is missing, and the legends, the legend is just
too good to let go.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Now we promise the final word from response, how about
hi kid?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
How do you feel sponsored?
Speaker 5 (39:29):
And I feel like I'm Freddy.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Fansbridge are very nice.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Well, let's get back to the show. Huh yeah. Billy
the Kid remains one of the most iconic figures of
the American West. He's remembered not just for his crimes,
for what he represented, youthful rebellion, defines some corrupt authority,
and the blurred line between hero and villain. His story
has been retold in hundreds of books, films, songs and
(39:59):
he and comic books. He exists, or at least existed,
in Marvel's sixty one six Reality, each version reshaping him
to fit the times. Some paint him as a cold
blooded killer, others as a misunderstood anti hero. Either way,
he's become a symbol of freedom, danger, and charisma. A
(40:22):
teenage outlaw who lived fast and died young, Billy's cinematic
resume is longer than most living actors. Young Guns and
Young Guns two of Course nineteen eighty eight nineteen ninety
gave him brat Pack Swagger via Emilio Estevez. The Left
Handed Gun nineteen fifty eight starred Paul Newman in a
(40:42):
moody psychological take, Chisholm in nineteen seventy, The Outlaw in
nineteen forty three, and Billy the Kid versus Dracula in
nineteen sixty six. Yes that's real. Show how flexible his
legend is. He's appeared in poetry, Michael o'dantie, the collected
works of Billy the Kid, literature, video games, and even
(41:04):
sci fi novels imagining his survival and rebirt. Billy's ghost
is said to linger in several places tied to his
life and death. Lincoln County Courthouse, where he escaped and
killed two deputies, is reportedly haunted. Visitors have felt cold breezes,
heard chains dragging, and seen shadowy figures in the upstairs window.
(41:25):
Fort Sumner, where he was shot by Pat Garrett, has
long been a side of eerie sightings and whispered stories.
Some claim to hear footsteps or see a figure watching
from the barn where he died. El Torreon and tower
used during the Lincoln County Wars haunted by multiple spirits,
including one man who was hanged twice. Billy fought near there,
(41:48):
and the energy of that conflict still seems to echo.
The Wortley Hotel, once owned by Pat Garrett, has its
own ghostly residents, though Billy himself doesn't seem to haunt it.
He's got bigger places to linger. Bill the Kid didn't
just leave behind bullet holes and wanted posters. He left
behind a living myth, one that still rides through history,
(42:08):
pop culture, and maybe even the occasional ghost story. Whether
he was a hero, a villain, or something in between,
he remains unforgettable.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Very nice beid So who starts off this week with
our summary and final thoughts.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
I believe it's you, but I could well a lot.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
About Old West.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
But I really feel for Billy that not only did
he do everything he could to try to make a deal,
he got turned around and doubled, maybe even triple crossed
by the guy he tried to make a deal with.
And that's pretty frustrating.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
So I mean, just for that to Loan, I gotta give.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Him kudos, because, man, you would have wanted to burn
the world to the ground after that, or.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
At least I would have.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
I agree with that. Do you think he survived. Do
you think Rushy Bill Cody was the guy?
Speaker 3 (43:02):
Oh, probably not, probably not.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
But I mean that was back before people could people
could live out whatever lie they could tout, you know,
it was there were not the not the paper trails
back then that we have today.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
For sure. The thing that gets me though, his age
was right, his scars were right, and he knew a lot.
And he never once said I'm fun in you. I'm
not really Billy the kid. He maintained it till he died.
And the weirder part is his little brother, Joseph. Brother
Joseph grew up, became a machinist, lived until the nineteen twenties,
(43:40):
never did a wrong thing. Ever.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Well, we certainly know that families take all different kinds
of courses.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Yeah, and this is again why I do not like
his dad when William and Trim left.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Well, but he was his dad, he was a stepdad, right, Yeah,
but still it's still it's still a person he grew
up with.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
And still you can't take the kids with you had
a good gold mining well, I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Don't know, I don't know. It was a different time,
for sure, it was.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
It was a very different time. It wouldn't have played
out like that today, and I'm I would be hopeful
that if this were to happen today, someone would take
in Billy because he seems like he was a smart guy.
He seems like he was a decent guy, just frustrated
over not having really any job skills, so we had.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
To do what he could and make it And that,
I mean, I can definitely, I can definitely correlate with that.
I mean, our life certainly runs that gambit fairly frequently
as well, doing what we can to manage.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
I think I think Billy M. Kidd is or was
really really morally gray in a way. But at the
same time, at the same time, I think he did
what he had to do in order to handle the
pig patriarchy, even like back then, because.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Patriarchy, Yeah, yeah, are there pulling out the big words.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Ar there's a kid, Arthur's a smart kid.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
But yeah, just I think he did what he had
to do, and I don't think he should have been
prosecuted for it, to be honest. I mean, yes, innocent
lives were lost, but mostly normal.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Not anywhere near as many as they as many.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
As they said, yeah, as they recorded, because obviously they
were trying to make him seem like the bad guy
so they could just get away with killing him.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Like Samuel L. Clemens had said, what was what was
his line that rumors of his death had been exaggerated,
rumors of the murder, rumors of the deaths by his
hands had been greatly exaggerated.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
Only think it could have been the other dude, especially
since he had all the stars and he had everything.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Either that or he just planned it out really well.
Arthur agrees with you that he thinks that he could
have been.
Speaker 4 (46:12):
I think it could have been. I think I think
he could have done something smart like like quote criminals
do and spied on the people. Wow, and and you know,
put someone up for the test and they shot another guy.
But or the other dude was just lying, So if
(46:34):
he didn't have to kill someone, he was somewhat new.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
I don't trust Pat Garrett as far as I could
spit a rat, to be honest, So.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
You don't really either.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
But there's there's a bunch of different things that could
have happened that we don't know about.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
Right, this is a really bad time, guys, I mean,
are you serious? Could you have done it? Any earlier.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Apparently that's okay, been in, we'll figure it y figure
it out. I guess, did you have any more to say, Efford, No.
Speaker 4 (47:09):
That's pretty much. That's pretty much all I had to say.
I think he did what he had to do in
order to handle the patriarchy.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
And I guess that's my final thought, is that Billy
the kid did what he felt was necessary. From when
William Antrum abandoned him and Joseph. The first thing he
did was steal food, and he didn't do that for
a year, which meant he was probably selling off what
(47:36):
littly had, or you know, working here and there to
make money to buy food for him and his little brother, right,
you know. So, and then after he got arrested and
put in jail for ten days to defeat his brother,
I think at that point he's like, fine, if I've
got to spend the time in jail, I'm at least
(47:57):
gonna steal stuff that's worth something. And so then he
starts stealing clothes and pistols, which were worth something at
that time. Later he starts stealing horses, which I get
could have been a death sentence, but it's not like
he decided this by himself. He was working with two
other people, so it was almost certainly a case of
(48:21):
he was like, Hey, these guys are like, we have
a racket. You should join us in our racket. And
he's like, cool, it pays money. Okay. I don't want
to say he was innocent. I don't think he was,
but I just think up to a point, he did
the best he could to survive, and then after a
(48:42):
certain point he's like, to heck with you. And even
after that point, he tried very hard to make a
deal with lou Wallace. Look, I'll admit to this or
that or whatever, but I get pardoned at it, and
he never did, and so what's you do. Well, he's
still young, he's still angry. So he sends another letter
(49:04):
to the guy basically going, hey, we had a deal
and you backed out. I know I'm supposed to be
the outlaw, but you're the one who lied and be yea,
you could come find me, but I do have gun,
so i'd be careful about that. And because his fame
was spreading, because all these newspapers in the East, particularly
(49:28):
where they were eating up this Wild West adventure, they
were selling this story, so they were making stuff up
about him left and right. Yeah, So I just think
he did what he had to. Maybe he did some
things he shouldn't have done, like, look, if you've slipped
your cuffs and shot one guy, why shoot the other?
(49:49):
But both of those guys had reputations as being cruel guys.
So you know, maybe a guy slams her head into
the prison door a few times, you're like, there's.
Speaker 11 (49:59):
Been like he only has killed had killed adults, right,
So it's not like he was going around shooting kids
or being disrespectful to kids, or like treating kids like
their trash.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
He was criminals dead or still.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Do he watched kids? He he he was good with
children and they were they.
Speaker 4 (50:25):
And I don't think he wanted to be.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
Anything evil per se.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
But I think he definitely did what he had to
in order to live the way he wanted to, because
in order to survive, at some point he just had
to stop and be like, you know what, I cannot
be I can't be just completely detached from this at
(50:52):
this point, right, And he just kept doing it because
he had to, because if he didn't, then he knew
he would have to face the consequences.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
And that's one of the reasons why I think Brushy
Bill Cody might have been might have been Billy the Kid,
because he's got the right age, he's got the right looks,
he's got the right scars, he's got the right memory. Now,
could he be a guy just trying to trade on
that reputation? Absolutely he could. Absolutely, But back at the
(51:26):
time when Billy the Kid was shot and buried, it's
quite possible that they knew they got the wrong guy,
but that they knew they got the wrong guy, but
that they just wanted to put him in the ground
so that lou would stop worrying about And Billy was
smart enough to take that and go, Okay, I'm gonna
go disappear for what, go into mining or something.
Speaker 3 (51:48):
Absolutely makes sense, you know, he was a smart guy.
That would be something that he did.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
So do I think absolutely was him. I don't know,
not enough evidence for me to go yeah he was. No,
he's not, but it's certainly an intriguing possibility. And the
thing that I don't get, I don't get at all
is why they didn't never tested. I mean, Okay, his
(52:17):
mom is dead, they don't know where his body is supposedly,
but the brother but the brother, I'm pretty sure they
would know where he is. Wouldn't you be able to
test against his DNA?
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Maybe?
Speaker 1 (52:29):
I mean, at least it would figure out if he's family.
And if he's family, then it's almost happened and almost
has to be built.
Speaker 4 (52:35):
But they did have a stepfather, didn't They could have
been born from the stepfather.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Well, they don't know who his dad was for sure,
and she and his mom didn't meet William Mantrum till
much later when Billy was older.
Speaker 4 (52:51):
I mean, but still could have been born with the stepfather,
I mean, same mother.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
But and I never caught this, but right around the
time that Billy the kid was living in New York,
you realize, that's the time the Gangs of New York
were a thing, like the Dead Rabbits and all those
different gangs out of New York, the ones they made
the movie about. So Billy, if he'd stayed in New York,
(53:17):
could have still had a violent life. It's just kind
of fascinating to me. But that's that's my final thoughts.
Speaker 4 (53:24):
And we've said ours, so that brings us to the
end of ours.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Ow Yep, thanks for listening, Thanks for keeping us in
the good Podstop one hundred. Thanks for being members of
the fam. Thanks to Blue Lexi, Laura and Arthur. Thanks
to Bill barn b E h R E N d T.
Thank you Bill. Bill's the one who did our theme music.
If you need music for a project, you can reach
(53:48):
Bill at Bill barrand at SBC global dot net. Thanks
to Paige Elmore of the Reverie Crime Podcast who combines
her own love of Canva with our own Arthur's artwork
to create some logo art for us.
Speaker 3 (54:02):
Thank you, Paige, Thank you Page.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Thanks to Aaron Generk of The Big Dumb Fun Show,
who continues to promote us locally. Join us next week
as we take an early leap into spooky season to
discuss the Devil's Promenade and the Hornet spook Lit Bye.