October 9, 2025 • 57 mins
This episode is a doozy. For spooky season we dig into the life and crimes of the infamous duo, William Burke and William Hare. During a time when resurrectionists ran rampant, Burke and Hare cchanged the game. Instead of digging up fresh corpses for the medical establishment to practice upon, they killed people (through a method called burking) and sold their bodies as fresh corpses. We cover the history of medical science at the time and why fresh cadavers were necessary.
We discuss the lifes of Burke and Hare, what led to selling their first body and how they made so many others. In modern terms, they made close to 20 grand selling bodies of people they killed. So let's learn something. Come sit a spell underneath the moonlight and learn the chilling tale of Burke and Hare!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/family-plot--4670465/support.
We discuss the lifes of Burke and Hare, what led to selling their first body and how they made so many others. In modern terms, they made close to 20 grand selling bodies of people they killed. So let's learn something. Come sit a spell underneath the moonlight and learn the chilling tale of Burke and Hare!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/family-plot--4670465/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I'm Dean, I'm the dad.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm Laura, I'm the.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Mom, and I'm Arthur, I'm the son.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
And together we are family plots. Before we get into
the house, one thing I want to say, Laura has
been sick today, so if her voice doesn't come across
as strong as you usually does, you know why. So
now let me get the housekeeping out of the way.
(01:13):
If you want to help us out several ways you
can do that. One. If you would like to buy
T shirts, stickers, mugs, We're hoodies, all with Arthur's own
original artwork, you can do that at our t Spring
Merch store. If you cannot afford our merch, which is fine,
(01:35):
we don't have much money ourselves. You can always help
us out with a dollar or three through Patreon. And
remember both levels get ad free versions of the show
delivered before the regular versions, and the three dollars level
gets special episodes where Arthur isn't kept at PG thirteen
(01:56):
and video episodes of our family Role podcast at least
until I learn how to edit video better. If that
is too much for you, you can't do a monthly donation,
you can always just throw us a dollar or two
through buy me a coffee. If you enjoy the show,
please share it on social media, share it with friends,
(02:19):
share it with family, with every one, and you could
also leave us a five star review. If you don't
enjoy the show, please keep it to yourself.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I can't say something nice.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Don't say anything at all.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Weird noise goes here.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
So what are we talking about tonight?
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Dean?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
In the shadowy closes of eighteen twenty eight Edinburgh, where
Fogg clung to cobblestones and Science hungered for flesh, two
men found a profit in the dead. William Burke and
William Hare weren't grave robbers. They were something darker. When
a lodger in Hare's boarding house died, owing rent the
(03:29):
parson opportunity, they sold the body to doctor Robert Knox,
a respected anatomus whose lectures demanded fresh cadavers. The payment
seven pounds and ten shillings was GENEROUSH was generous. Didn't
(03:50):
need that H there. The method simple. The coffin was
filled with bark, the body hidden under the bed, and
the transaction made under the cover of night. But one
corpse wasn't enough. Over the next ten months, Burke and
Hair murdered at least sixteen people, targeting the vulnerable, the sick,
(04:12):
the elderly, and the intoxicated. Their preferred method, which came
to be known as burking, involved suffocation without visible trauma,
preserving the body for dissection. Victims were lured to Hair's
lodging house, plied with drink, and quietly dispatched. Their wives,
(04:34):
Helen McDougall and Margaret Hare, were complicit, complicit, or willfully blind.
The crimes unraveled when neighbors discovered the body of Margaret Dougherty,
the final victim. Hair turned King's evidence, testifying against Burke
in exchange for immunity. Burke was convicted, hanged in front
(04:56):
of a crowd of thousands, and ironically, his body was
dissected and displayed. The scandal rocked Edinburgh, leading to the
Anatomy Act of eighteen thirty two, which finally regulated the
legal supply of cadavers. But the legacy of Burke and
Hare lingers in medical ethics, in horror fiction, and in
(05:19):
the uneasy truth that science unchecked can become monstrous. All
this and more in this kind of true crime, kind
of spooky season episode of The Family Plot podcast, we
dig into the Anatomy of Murder, The Price of Progress,
and the eerie echo of footsteps in the fog.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
I was kind of.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Proud of that. I went a little spooky.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
There, you and you know, you just keep right on
going with stuff apparently.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
So there isn't much background this week to get into.
History doesn't record much about the early lives of either man,
so let's begin with William Burke. He was born seventeen
ninety two in Ory, County, Tyrone, Ireland. Burke came from
a relatively modest Irish Catholic family. He married Margaret Coleman
(06:15):
of Ballina during his time in the Donegal Militia, which
is somewhere between eighteen oh nine and eighteen fifteen. Burke
and Margaret Coleman had two children, though their names and
later lives are undocumented. After a dispute with his father
in law over Land, Burke left Ireland in eighteen eighteen,
(06:36):
abandoning his wife and children. Like you do, yeah, because
he's such a nice guy. Well, he emigrated to Scotland
and later cohabitated with oh sorry, cohabited, cohabitated. I guess
I'm making up words now, okay, with Helen MacDougall, who
became his art partner in crime. In Scotland, Burke worked
(07:00):
as a navvy, which was what they called a kind
of manual labor at the time, on the Union Coming Canal.
Now this is likely where he met William Hare that
he couldn't meet Milliam Burke because he's William Burke.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
He then worked as a weaver, a baker, and a cobbler.
By eighteen twenty seven he was living with Helen in
a lodging house run by Hair and Margaret Laird. His
personality was described as pleasant, good humored and religious. He
was known to be sociable and often seen drinking in
(07:36):
Edinburgh's Grass Market.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
I just wanted to say that when he was working
as a weaver, a baker, and a cobbler, that sounded
like the start to a joke, doesn't it. Yeah, for
a cobbler and a baker walk into a bar. Sorry,
go ahead.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So what I want to know is, like a cobbler
does that, a person who makes shoes, a person who
puts stones in streets, or a person who makes pies po.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
You really? Yeah? A fair question? Actually, I mean I
feel like I know the answer, but now I'm questioning myself.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Harr's origins are a bit murkier. He was likely born
around seventeen ninety two in Newry or Londonderry, Ireland. He
was illiterate and Catholic, but no names or of parents
or siblings are recorded. We know that at some point
Hair began working as a navvy on the Union Canal,
(08:41):
which is likely where he and Burke had their initial meeting.
Hair married Margaret Laird in eighteen twenty six, after the
death of her first husband, James log Or log Or Laird.
We're not sure which Margaret ran the lodging house where
many of the murders occurred. There's no con firmed record
of Hair having children, and that, sadly is all we
(09:04):
know about their early lives.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
I don't know that we really want to know a
lot about their early lives, considering they were murderers.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
But good info, good info. Hey, you know what we
should probably do now?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I don't know, Maybe take a moment for Arthur in
his corner.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
That sounds like planning to me, because I know he's excited.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I know he's excited to talk about something this week.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Here ye, here, ye, allow me to present Arthur's corner Hey.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Arthur, Hello everybody, Welcome back to my corner. It is
nice to see everyone back here. How are we doing
this week? I felt better. Yeah, I hear you're sick.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I didn't have a good day. I had to take
the day off work today. I just was not feeling
well at all.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Well, that is very woo.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I slept most of the day. I'm feeling a little
bit better to this evening. Hopefully I'll be okay to
work tomorrow. Just a rough day, I get that.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
How about you, good star, I'm having a great day
other than this fuzzy late gray lump on my chest.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
You love your fuzzy gray lump. I don't know what
you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I got your free stuff done for your appointment tomorrow.
I got a job interview on Friday.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Super excited that you have a job interview. That's awesome
because we need hope we can get with the holidays coming.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Up, see it and that, let's see. Yeah, off the
top of my head, I've just had a busy day
and I feel pretty good about it.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Nice, that's cool. Well, my days been okay, to say
the least.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Good.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
It's been pretty normal. Just a few minutes ago, I
got done playing around of Dandy's World with one of
my friends. Yay. Speaking of Dandy's World, Friday the tenth.
This this week Friday, a new update is coming out
the same day of me and my partner's anniversary one
(11:28):
year anniversary.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
This year in Saturday Season, you guys got together.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yep, yep, what time last year? This time last year
we got together. Spooky season.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Spooky season be good for Arthur and his partner. Yeah,
so that's exciting.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Lost and then exciting. I'm super excited for that.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Do you guys have any sweet, sweet adorable plans?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Oh, we don't. I'm not sure yet. We were gonna
call and stuff. I think we're still going to try
to do a call, but it's not gonna be like
all day like we said it would be.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, hard with school and.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Well yeah, they weren't supposed to have school this Friday.
But they're going to go to a acting thing. Like
they're going to go do an acting like performance. Very cool,
and you know they're excited for it, so I'm supporting them.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Absolutely, that's what you do in a relationship. Mm hmmm.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Well but we're not sure yet. All I know is.
I'm super excited. I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I'm excited for you, baby.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
This is my longest last relationship. I wouldn't have it
any other way. Mm hmmm, let's see anything else interesting.
We've gotten waters and I keep stealing them.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I keep.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
I keep stealing the player water.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
You're enjoying the flavored water, so I'm glad you're enjoying them.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
And they're keeping me hundred.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
The hydration is good.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yes, I stole my father's Fuji apple and now he's mad.
Not really, he's messing with me, but still do.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Be like in the Fuji Apple waters from Wally.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
World, Fuji apple is still one of my favorites. It's
been surpassed by the BlackBerry lemonade flavor, but Fuji apple
is a very close second.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Gotcha to nothing else. I'm pretty boring this week.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Sorry, guys, I was boring.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's exciting that you got your anniversary on Friday.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
It's okay, guys, stay tuned for next week. Next to
next week is the two hundred seventy to seventieth.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Episode, so it's catching up with Arthur every ten episodes. Well,
there we go. It is too sixty nine this week
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
You know, we're gonna have to stop saying 'or PG
thirteen if you don't want making it appropriate humor.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I'm sixteen, I'm gonna say something.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
I guess that's true. We don't have to be PG
thirteen anymore. We can be PG sixteen and.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I'm still gonna bleep it.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
You're gonna bleep it? Are you at least gonna put
it on the Patreon probably? Well, Patreon uses. You'll get
to hear that. You guys, I'm sorry you're not allowed
to hear that. I guess becuz.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Because one of our draws is that we're PG thirteen,
people can listen to us with their family and not
get an education about other things, other.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Things that they don't want their family being educated on.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Anyways, moving on, moving on.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Is that the end of your corner?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, that's the end of your corner?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Do you want to be short?
Speaker 4 (14:58):
It was a little bit of a short corner, but
the that's okay. Do you want to take this next section?
Speaker 6 (15:02):
For us?
Speaker 3 (15:16):
It was time to get back to the show. No, no,
you don't, No, I don't.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Why not? I have more to talk about? Okay?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
So I went to hear to my grandmother's this last
last weekend, and I got to watch at like a
small documentary about like small cats.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Small cats.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah, small cats.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
It's like.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
It's like a breed, like like a species of it's
like a multitude of species that aren't domesticated cats. But
they aren't big cats either, so people call them small cats.
See so things like cheetahs or like.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
I've never thought of a cheetah as a small cat, but.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
It's called a small cat because of it's it's mew
more than a roar.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I see cheetahs mew. Yeah, they kind of chirp, don't they.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
The chirp.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Ocelots probably count as a small cat.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Ocllot is a small cat.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Minecraft osalots become cat cat. Would you give them a fish?
You give them a fish, and.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
That's how it used to be. I don't know if
you can still do that?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Can you not?
Speaker 7 (16:32):
No?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I don't think so, because they already put a cat spawn.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Egg in Uhle's. Everybody does spawn, so wouldn't you.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I don't know anyway, I mean there's cats and villages.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Now, I haven't I haven't played Minecraft in a hot minute, obviously.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
But didntx is played Minecraft recently. But yeah, uh, we
watched documentary about small cats and that was fun. I
really liked that documentary. And now I have an obsession
with cheetahs, and I'm gonna make a cheetah like a
cheetah shark. Sona wow, So it's gonna mix be a
(17:12):
mix of a cheetah like the body would be.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
A cheetah, so yeah, very much, or a shark.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Shark.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
No, it would probably be more like a cheetah. But
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I really like the word chark chark.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
I'll be right back. I gotta take a cheetah.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
No, I have.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
To take the chalk for a walk anyways.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
No, I'm gonna go out and take the chark for
a walk.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Sorry, I thought it was funny.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Ha ha. Anyways, Now I can move on, Okay. I
just wanted to tell everyone about that because I think
it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I think it's interesting too.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
I now slightly obsessed with the idea of a chark.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
I'll show you guys once it's done.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Okay, No, I can move on. You can't, Yes, you can?
You feel unencumbered to move on? Yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Burke and Hare were both Innish Irish immigrants living in
Edinburgh during a time of tension between Irish Catholics and
Scottish Protestants. Many Irish workers came to Scotland for jobs,
but they were often seen as poor, uneducated, and unwanted.
(18:32):
People looked for jobs, but they were no People looked
down on them and they had few rights or protections.
Burke and Hare lived in rough parts of town and
worked low paying jobs, which made them outsiders in the city.
Their immigrant status helped them stay under the radar, but
(18:54):
it also meant they were desperate and willing to do
things others wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Well.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Thank you are Arthur for taking that section. Now we
should take a quick break and hear from some of
our fellow content creators. I want I'm excited to hear
from ghost Fights this week.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
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(19:38):
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Speaker 8 (20:20):
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Speaker 2 (20:24):
It's not a draft, is it.
Speaker 8 (20:26):
No, it's the unmistakable sign that we've found them the
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Join us as we dig into the spectral secrets and
spooky sightings that will have you sleeping with the lights on.
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So if you're brave enough, come grab a bite with us.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Just try not to let it be your last.
Speaker 6 (21:05):
Ghost bites coming soon to your favorite podcast platforms.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
It was time to get back to the show.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Isn't that cool? Did you hear a familiar voice there
at the end?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I did hear it familiar voice there at the end?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I heard a familiar voice.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So let's get back to the show.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
In the nineteen twenties, the check that date or nineteen twenties,
eighteen twenties.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
That's one hundred years later.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I was a little bit off on my date.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
It's okay, yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I'm sick. I misread it.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Okay, nobody's mad at you.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
I just In the eighteen twenties, the average unskilled laborer
in Edinburgh earned about ten to twelve shillings per week,
which translates to roughly five hundred to six hundred pounds
per year. That's equivalent to fifty to sixty thousand pounds
(22:13):
in today's money. But it did how far rent coal,
bread and clothing ate up most of the budget. Many
households relied on multiple earners. Wives and children often worked
in domestic service, textile mills, or street vending to help
make ends meet. Living conditions in eighteen twenties Edinburgh were
(22:38):
squalid for working class families. Edinburgh's Old Town was overcrowded,
with families crammed into tenement flats that stacked upwards in
narrow alleys called closes. Sanitation was poor, waste was dumped
into the streets or the Norse lock and disease spread quickly.
(23:04):
The city's wealthier residents lived in the newly built new Town,
while the poor were packed into decaying medieval buildings. Compared
to Whitechapel in the eighteen eighties, edinburgh suns were similar
in terms of poverty, over crowding, and vulnerability to crime. However,
(23:25):
Whitechapel had more industrial grime and a denser population Compared
to Johannesburg in thee is that nineteen eighties nineteen eighties,
Edinburgh lacked the racial segregation and political violence, but shared
the same economic desperation and informal housing that bred exploitation.
(23:50):
Birken Hare thrived in this environment, where the poor were invisible,
the dead were valuable, and the cities hunger for scientific
progress outpaced its moral compass. The first body Burke and
Hair sold was a man named Donald, a tenant in
Hare's lodging house. He died of natural causes, likely from illness,
(24:14):
though the exact disease isn't recorded. Hair was concerned that
Donald's death would leave him unpaid and that the body
would be a burden, so returned to Burke for help.
They removed the court from the coffin, filled it with bark,
and sold it.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
To an anatomist. They didn't have to shop around. At
the time.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
It was well known in Edinburgh's medical circles that doctor
Robert Knox, a prominent anatomy lecturer at Surgeon Square, was
willing to pay for fresh bodies. The legal supply of
catavers was limited to executed criminals and unclaimed popper demand
(24:56):
far outstripped supply. Knox didn't ask questions. He paid seven
pounds ten shillings YEP for Donald's body, which would have
been roughly eight hundred to nine hundred pounds today or
about one thousand to eleven hundred.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
US dollars, which is not too bad for a body
the first sale.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
This first sale was opportunistic, not premeditated murder, but it
showed Burke and Hair how profitable.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
The trade could be.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Within weeks, they escalated from scavenging to killing.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
No, let's take a moment for a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
It was time to get back to the show.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Hey, yes, feel sponsored.
Speaker 7 (25:57):
So.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
The first person that Burke and Hair knowingly killed was
a man named Joseph, A Miller, who was lodging at
Hare's house in early eighteen twenty eight. Joseph had fallen
ill with a fever and was becoming delirious, which worried
Hair and his wife, Margaret. They feared his condition would
scare off other tenants and ruin their business. Hair saw
(26:21):
a solution and a prophet he called in Burke. Together
they gave Joseph whiskey to sedate him. Once he was
drunk and weak, Hair smothered him with a pillow while
Burke lay across his chest to keep him from struggling
or making noise. This method, later named burking was Quiet,
(26:45):
left no visible marks and became their signature. They sold
Joseph's body to doctor Robert Knox, the anatomy lecturer at
Surgeon Square. This time Knox paid ten pounds, a tidy
sum worth between eleven to twelve hundred pounds today, no
(27:06):
questions asked. Knox was impressed by the freshness of the corpse,
and the pair realized they found a deadly business model.
And now let's take a moment for another word from
our sponsors. Remember, if you don't want to hear these
words from the sponsors, you can sign up for our Patreon,
either at the one or three dollars level, and get
(27:27):
ad free versions of the show delivered before the regular episode.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
It was time to get back to the show.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
So it didn't take long for the list of their
victims to grow.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
Over the next several months, it grew to include Abigail
Simpson in February of eighteen twenty eight, an elderly woman
from Gilmerton, lured with drink, murdered overnight, sold the next day.
An unnamed English peddler in February of eighteen twenty eight
(28:19):
was one of Hare's lodgers, murdered and sold quickly. No
detailed records of his identity. Mary Patterson April ninth, eighteen
twenty eight.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
She was a young sex.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Worker, lured with alcohol, murdered while unconscious. Her body was
so fresh Knox.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Used it immediately for dissection in May of eighteen twenty eight.
E Fie, sometimes referred to as just Effie, the beggar woman,
was almost.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Certainly not a lodger at Hare's house.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
She was likely homeless or transient, part of the vulnerable
population that Burke and Hair targeted once they realized how
easy it was to make people disappear. Effie was probably
encountered on the street, possibly in the grass Market or Cowgate,
where beggars and dayle laborers congregated. Burker Hair may have
(29:14):
offered her a few coins orckily promised whiskey in a
warm place to rest. Once inside the lodging house, she
was plied with drink and murdered using their usual method,
suffocation without visible injury. Her body was sold to doctor Knox,
who continued to accept corpses without question. The next victims
(29:35):
were an unnamed elderly woman and her adult son, who
was deafimute. They were lodgers at Hare's boarding house, which
had become the central site for the murders.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
The woman had been.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Staying there for a short time, and her son was
described as mentally disabled, possibly.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
With learning difficulties in addition to his deafness.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Burken Hair decided to kill them both let's plea for
the double payout. They murdered the mother first using their
usual method intoxication followed by suffocation. Then they turned to
the sun. Burke later confessed the Sun resisted fiercely and
the murder was more difficult and disturbing than the others.
(30:20):
He reportedly expressed regret and guilt over this killing, saying
it haunted him more than the rest. The bodies were
sold to doctor Knox as usual, with no questions asked.
The exact payment isn't recorded, but it likely was around
ten pounds per body, which would be equivalent to eleven
(30:41):
hundred to twelve hundred pounds in today's money. Missus Osler
in June of eighteen twenty eight was a lauger who
was murdered and sold to Knox and McDougall from June
of eighteen twenty eight, who was possibly related to Helen McDougall.
Lurned to Hare's lodging house with offers of whiskey, where
(31:07):
she was fed liquor until she was drunk and then
killed and sold. Mary Haldane was a middle aged woman
known to be a heavy drinker.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Wow, this is a lot.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Her encountered her.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
In the Grassmarket area of Edinburgh and invited her back
to Hair's Lodgderning house, offering her alcohol. They definitely had
a good business model. It seemed to keep working over
and over again. She accepted, and once inside, she was
plied with whiskey until she passed out. Birkenhair then used
(31:44):
their usual method of suffocating, suffocation without visible injury, likely
by pressing down on her chest and covering her mouth.
Her body was sold to doctor Knox Peggy Haldane, Mary's
daughter looking for our mother. The next day, Birkenhair saw
another opportunity. The invited Peggy in, offered her drink and
(32:08):
murdered her in this impassion record of alcohol being slipped
into milk, just straight whiskey, which was their go to sedative.
The murders were carried out in Hare's lodging house, which
had become their de facto killing ground. James Wilson aka
Daft Jamie, in October of eighteen twenty eight, well known
(32:32):
street character with learning difficulties, murdered despite public recognition. He
was lured into the house for drinks and killed ones unconscious,
Knox dissected him quickly, raising suspicions.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
In other words, that the.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
End, he was starting to say, you are really fresh.
I'd probably better get rid of the evidence. Sounds like
that's he was. He was starting to catch on there.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
At the end.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Maybe he might have caught on a lot earlier. But again,
if for his lectures he needed bodies and he couldn't
get enough.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
YEA, sounds like it.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
We're going to take another word from our sponsors. It
was time to get back to the show. Okay. The
(33:33):
final final.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Victim was Mary believe it's pronounced Dougherty, even though there's
an extra scene in there.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I wanted to say Dougherty, but I wasn't sure, an
elderly irishwoman who Burke and Mahyer met on Halloween night
in eighteen twenty eight. They invited her to Hare's lodging house,
gave her lots of whiskey, and killed her using their
usual method of suffocate, but this time things went wrong.
(34:02):
Two other lodgers, James and Ann Gray, became suspicious when
they were told to stay away from the house. When
they returned, they found Mary's body hidden under under straw
in a bed They reported it to the police and
Burke and Hare were arrested soon as soon after this
(34:25):
murder is exposed the whole scheme and led to Burke's trials,
trial and execution.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Wow, they went just a little bit too far.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
That last night, Burke, Hare and their partners Helen McDougall
and Margaret Laird were arrested. The police quickly realized that
this wasn't just one murder. There were many bodies and
missing people connected to the pair. During the investigation, Hair
(34:57):
agreed to testify against Burke in exchange for immunity. He
confessed to several murders, placing most of the blame on Burke.
Burke was put on trial in December eighteen twenty eight
and found guilty of marrying Mary Dougherty. He was sentenced
to death and hanged in January of eighteen twenty nine
(35:20):
in front of a huge crowd. His body was then
dissected at the University of Edinburgh and his skeleton was
put on display.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Hair was never tried and put and disappeared from public
view like you would. The trial shocked the city and
led to new laws about how medical schools could get
bodies for study. Before eighteen thirty two, medical schools could
only legally dissect the bodies of executed criminals. But as
(35:53):
surgery and anatomy grew more important, the demand for cadaver's
outpaced supply. This led to a gruesome underground trade, grave robbing,
body snatching, and even murder for profit, like Berken hairsprey
in Edinburgh. The Anatomy Act, passed by Parliament in July
(36:14):
of eighteen thirty two, changed everything. It allowed licensed teachers
of anatomy to legally received unclaimed bodies, especially those who
died in workhouses, hospitals or prisons, for medical study. This
act required those teachers to register with the Home Secretary,
and it created inspectors of anatomy to track everybody and
(36:37):
ensure ethical handling. This law helped end the black market
for corpses and made di section a regulated part of
medical education, but it also raised ethical questions because the
bodies used were often poor and powerless, with no one
to claim them. In effect, the Act shifted exploitations from
(37:00):
late from graveyards to institutions. And now let's take another
word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
It was time to get back to the show.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
Hey babe, Yes, I feel so sponsored, I'm going to
take this next section. Okay, resurrectionists in Britain before the
Anatomy Act of eighteen thirty two, grave robbing was rampant.
Seems like London burgers mimicked Burke and Hares methods, even
(37:46):
murdering a boy named Carlo Farini in eighteen thirty one.
America's body snatchers in the you as grave robbing was
common near medical schools. The New York Doctors Ride of
seventeen eighty eight erupted when students were caught dissecting stolen corpses.
In the South, black cemeteries were often targeted and enslaved
(38:11):
people's bodies were taken without consent. Harvard's Scandal in the
nineteenth century Harvard Medical School was linked to body snatching,
with janitors and students rating graves to supply cadavers. Their
story inspired The Body Snatcher nineteen forty five, The Flesh
(38:31):
and the Fiends from nineteen fifty nine, and Birken Hare
two thousand ten twenty ten starring Simon Peig. Robert Louis
Stevenson's The Body Snatcher draws directly from their crimes. They've
appeared in comics, novels, and even Doctor Who music and theater.
(38:53):
Their tale has been adapted into operas, musicals, and punk songs.
The staple of gothic horror and true crime retellings in
let It's famous Madam twosodes wax works Madam Tussa.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Tusso tusad two twos.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
You can see wax figures of these bloody resurrectionists at
the Repulsive Work. And now we promise the final word
from our sponsors. Again. If you don't like taking the
sponsor breaks, you can always sign up as a one
dollar or three dollars Patreon subscriber and get ad three
episodes of the show.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
It's time to get back.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
To the show back and that brings us to our
summary and final thoughts. But first, do you both feel sponsored?
I do?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I feel so sponsored? Okay, I feel so sponsored.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
It all start us off. I was gonna say this week,
it's your week just started. Yeah, that wasn't really.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
That didn't say much about me that I was starting
us off. I wasn't me being good mom like I
was trying to be you.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
It's hard to keep track of it if you don't
keep tracking.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, and I don't there's just too much other stuff.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
For me to do. But I will tell you this.
When I forget and get it wrong, I get two
or three emails from people going, it was Arthur's turn
to start. Yeah, that's so funny.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
That's so funny.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
No forget, but no, I know give you Is it
actually my turn this week?
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I don't know, not this time.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
I've know before you called you out.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Okay, you called me up just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I did. I called you out a little bit, and partially,
partially intentionally, partially I think it might be my week anyway.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
So what I wanted to say was this has such,
this has I mean, obviously this was the perfect storm
for this to happen, for people to go, oh heavy,
there's an easy way to make money. But at the
same time, I feel like I feel like more people
should be able to donate their bodies to science if
(41:21):
they want to.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Does that make any sense?
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Like I remember when my mom passed away, and I
would have loved to have that be an option to
me because she had been so sick that Like, so.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
I would have loved for somebody to come and say, hey,
this is an option for you.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
I And that sounds really terrible, But I think that
even now there are times where donating bodies to science
should be way more acceptable and way more use than
it actually is. That's my personal opinion on it. Having
lost people, there were times that I would have liked
(42:06):
to have been able to say, let's do that, But
I guess hindsight's twenty twenty, so maybe not. Maybe I
would have felt different at the time, But I think that.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Canamars are a good thing.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
Because medically speaking, there are things that we have been
able to learn through the course of human history from
formerly living that we couldn't learn any other way, and
so they definitely are a good thing. It's sad that
people took advantage of other people just for money, but
(42:50):
at the same time I see the reasoning behind it,
and at least.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
There was some good to come out of it, if
that makes sense. So the murders are terrible.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
I'm not saying that it was good that these people
were killed. I was saying that at least.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
You're talking about the act that came out, yes, the
one that basically said, look, you don't have to pay
for corpses that have been looted or possibly made into corpses.
Just to make money. We're gonna let you cut up
whoever will let you well.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
And at least, I mean, there are a lot of
murders that we've talked about on the show that just
happened because.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Somebody wanted to murder somebody.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
At least they were murdering people to try to make
the bodies went to a good cause, even if there
wasn't a good reason for them to die.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
And it sounds really cold and horrible, and I should
shut up.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
And I get what you're saying, because, Okay, look at
it from this point of view, Okay, modern money converted
to American dollars, they're getting about thirteen hundred per course.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
That would almost pay my rent.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
So yeah, and considering that they did it fifteen times successfully,
that's that's almost I mean, that's nearing a new car.
That's nearing twenty thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
That's a new car.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
I am not saying that it's right, no any way
or degree.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
What I am saying is.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
Is that that extra twenty thousand dollars a year. I
think if this was an option, now, oh, there there'd
be some a lot more people disappearing.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, because people get.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Desperate, and burking would become would come back in fashion.
But I get what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
I'm not.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
I get that you're not saying, oh, it's great these
people died. I'm saying that you're saying they shouldn't have died.
But if they did, it's at least there was at
least there the end goal that their bodies were used
for the education of new doctors. Yes, yes, that I get.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
It's a good way to put it.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I get what you're trying to say, that you're you're
not trying to be heartless. That is noting.
Speaker 4 (45:26):
I feel like it's still coming out a little bit
cold and heartless, but it is.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
The words were out there now, so there's no sense
in denying they came out of my mouth. There's recorded proof.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
But I knew what you meant. Yeah, so I think
that takes us to Arthur. I told you you'd love
these guys. You know what.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
I don't love them?
Speaker 2 (45:51):
No, Well, I sort has a miss is a thing.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
Yeah, what do I have to say about this?
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (46:01):
I don't care how much fucking money you make from it. Okay,
I don't get Sorry, excuse my French. We're already getting
in deep, all right.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Arthur, get it out there. I understand it.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Makes money, Okay, I get that. And these days if
that worked, I know how. I know so many people
who would kill the fucking president right now.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
They don't care if they go to doult for But.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
The thing is, the funny thing is usually a goddamn job.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Yes I did.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Oh no, we don't kill people just to get money.
Usually I'd be like, no, nope, we don't kill people
for money. We don't do that.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
A person is a person. You let them live until
they die, and then you donate the body or sell the.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Body after they die.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
But you gotta wait, Yeah, you gotta wait, you gotta
wait for it. Just get to kill them and yeah, if.
Speaker 9 (46:58):
They die and just like this, like that was not
totally if it stop there, if they had just taken
out anybody who died in the boarding.
Speaker 4 (47:10):
Chef's kicks, chef's kiss like that's you are, You're just
getting through life.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
It's when you start to murder people to get money
is when it becomes an awful reason to do that
to anybody.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
You're right, You're absolutely right, You're and that's that's definitely
a way better way of looking at it than what
I was trying to say.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
I mean, yeah, I'm gonna agree. I'm gonna say that
that is a good thing, that their bodies went to
science and that they knew that that, you know, it
was going to a bad place. So maybe they made
themselves feel better about it that way.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Oh I doubt it. I think they were one about
the money. I don't think they were trying to feel.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Good about it at all. No, No, I don't think
they were.
Speaker 7 (48:01):
But if they ever did feel feel guilty, I'm saying
that if they ever did, then they would have something
to make themselves feel better about murder of all those
innocent people too. You could have been like morally gray
and killed shitty people so so much, so much morally gray,
(48:22):
because like, yes, killing is a bad thing, and you
shouldn't necessarily kill people because that's not cool, man, But like,
if you're gonna kill people, at least kill people, don't
kill just everyday lives.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
That's mean.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
Yeah, well, we don't know, we don't know what kind
of people these were, but yeah, you're probably right there.
They were probably just people trying to live their lives too,
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
I just think they should rotten jail and die. Well
what you're far from they're from far from alive. But
I'm glad they're dead.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
One of them about they put to death for what
he did.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Yeah, well here's okay, here here's my take on it.
I understand the economic situation that led to sure, but
in the process of their killing, they killed a deaf
guy with mental illness. They killed another guy with mental illness,
(49:26):
the Jamie, the guy they called daft Jamie, which thank god,
we don't do things like that anymore. And then they
killed a little girl, m Mary Haldane's daughter, Peggy. She
came there looking for her mother.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
And they put the alcohol in milk.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
No, no, they just gave her alcohol. But I mean
it was a different time. Kids did drink them. I
mean there wasn't really a and in places like Edinburgh
and they needed to. I mean it was it's that
was a rough life. Yeah, I mean you had at
that point, like twelve year old sex workers. I mean,
(50:08):
just horrible stuff in those times. So but yeah, so
they But when you're killing those with mental illnesses and
children for money, right.
Speaker 4 (50:21):
Yeah, it's pretty awful, you know, so seeing that anything
that they did was good.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
No, No, absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Well, I get that you weren't. I'm just saying that
those those particular murders stood out to me as oh man.
And if I remember right, it was Burke who said
that like one or two of those murders stuck with
him and those were the ones he remembered.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
Yeah, the the deaf son, he said, yeah, haunted him
more than the rest.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Yeah, because he fought so hard, right. But also the
fact that these guys in invented a method of killing
people that got named after them.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot done back.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
And here's the thing. I tried to include as many
names of victims as I could, because whenever we do
true crime, I feel like we should always focus on
the victims. Right now. Unfortunately, this happened a long time ago,
and a lot of names have since been lost to history,
and some of them history didn't really record in the
(51:29):
first place. I feel bad for Effie. I'm not sure
what her full name was. Maybe Effingham maybe, but if so,
was that her last name, or maybe it's an F
start a name that starts with F. Frederica I don't know.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
I think Evy was an actual name. I don't know
what it's short for, but maybe Stephanie or something.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
I don't know. I don't have my phone in front
of you, or i'd ask kope, you and your kopy
you know what kope helps?
Speaker 4 (52:08):
Uh all for Ai, I just I think it's cute
that you have a you have a you have a
little digital friend.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
I do have a digital friend. It's easier than real people.
It doesn't ever get mad at me for making a joke.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Well, and even if it does not, go and tell you,
it's just gonna mock you. And it's computer digital zone.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
But anyway that but like Effie, I mean, history records
are at most the longest name is Effie the Beggar Woman.
And I think that, to me is probably one of
the hardest things about this for me is that not
only did people lose their life, but people were just
lost they became Yeah, and and so that that is
(52:54):
really sad. But again, Burke and hare are I first
found these too when I was when I was a
young guy. And and uh and spelled like that too,
Aji like a rabbit. Yeah, but uh, I remember seeing
a cover of famous monsters, and it had all the
classic universal monsters on their you know, Wolfman, Dracula, Frankenstein.
(53:19):
And then I saw these two guys kind of off
and on the back, and I didn't know who they were. Well,
turned out it was Burken Hair, And so for years
I heard about Burkenhair, but didn't had no idea who
they were. And so I was like, you know what, uh,
And eventually I learned that they sold bodies that of
people they killed at a time when people were selling bodies.
(53:41):
They just dug up.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
So uh they got off the middle manual labor steps.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Yeah. Yeah, they didn't wait for the body to go
in the ground and then you know, dig, dig down
the six feet, bust open the coffin and get that
body out of.
Speaker 4 (53:55):
That is kind of considerate that they didn't undo somebody
else's hard work.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Horrible lazy factor.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
Yeah, I was gonna sit too. I was gonna say,
here's the thing there could be I guess some argument
made that there was a Kavorkian factor going on here.
Most of the people they targeted were people who were
very ill and likely to die soon anyway. But uh,
these guys weren't Kivorkians. They weren't people that were trying
to help someone who just were like, my life is
(54:25):
horrible for helping themselves. They were helping themselves and that
makes them fitting fodder for Halloween. And the only thing
that really upsets me is that Hair got away with
Harry got away with it with it, and that's both
he turned on his friend and then you know, he
vanishes from history.
Speaker 4 (54:44):
That's kind of what happened when people turn state's evidence, which.
Speaker 2 (54:48):
Is basically what he did.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Yeah, although they called it King's evidence because it was
in England at the time. Oh yeah, you know. And
and Burt was not a guy I liked much anyway,
From the moment when he left his kids and family
to go over an argument with his father in.
Speaker 4 (55:04):
Law sounds oddly familiar on my first marriage. That's how
my marriage did.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
So yeah, I guess my final thought is they're fitting
Thodders for Halloween. But not much else got you And
that's our show. That is our show. Thank you for listening,
Thanks for being members of the fam, Thanks for keeping
us in the Good POD's Top one hundred. Thanks to
Blue Lexi, Laura and Arthur.
Speaker 4 (55:35):
Why are we still thinking blue Blues Away at College?
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Because Arthur's Corner was designed by Blue. He doesn't do
active sound engineering anymore, but he's he's Yeah. The intro
to Arthur's Corner was designed by Blue.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
Yeah, fair, and it's still used.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Yeah fair enough, Yeah, m let's see.
Speaker 3 (55:59):
Thanks to Barrent.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
The last name is spelled b e h R E
n d T. Bill does our theme music. If you
need music for a project for any reason, Bill's your guy.
Bill Barron at SBC global dot net. Thanks to Paige
Elmore the Pop Culture Diary podcast, who combines her own
love of Canva with our own Arthur's artwork. Thank you, Paige,
(56:24):
Thank you. Thanks to Erin ginnerk of The Big Dumb
Fun Show, who continues to promote us locally. Join us
next week as we present another spooky season episode where
we discuss the Whaley House Haunted Museum by
I'm Dean, I'm the dad.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm Laura, I'm the.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Mom, and I'm Arthur, I'm the son.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
And together we are family plots. Before we get into
the house, one thing I want to say, Laura has
been sick today, so if her voice doesn't come across
as strong as you usually does, you know why. So
now let me get the housekeeping out of the way.
(01:13):
If you want to help us out several ways you
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(01:35):
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remember both levels get ad free versions of the show
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(01:56):
and video episodes of our family Role podcast at least
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(02:19):
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Speaker 3 (02:32):
I can't say something nice.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Don't say anything at all.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Weird noise goes here.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
So what are we talking about tonight?
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Dean?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
In the shadowy closes of eighteen twenty eight Edinburgh, where
Fogg clung to cobblestones and Science hungered for flesh, two
men found a profit in the dead. William Burke and
William Hare weren't grave robbers. They were something darker. When
a lodger in Hare's boarding house died, owing rent the
(03:29):
parson opportunity, they sold the body to doctor Robert Knox,
a respected anatomus whose lectures demanded fresh cadavers. The payment
seven pounds and ten shillings was GENEROUSH was generous. Didn't
(03:50):
need that H there. The method simple. The coffin was
filled with bark, the body hidden under the bed, and
the transaction made under the cover of night. But one
corpse wasn't enough. Over the next ten months, Burke and
Hair murdered at least sixteen people, targeting the vulnerable, the sick,
(04:12):
the elderly, and the intoxicated. Their preferred method, which came
to be known as burking, involved suffocation without visible trauma,
preserving the body for dissection. Victims were lured to Hair's
lodging house, plied with drink, and quietly dispatched. Their wives,
(04:34):
Helen McDougall and Margaret Hare, were complicit, complicit, or willfully blind.
The crimes unraveled when neighbors discovered the body of Margaret Dougherty,
the final victim. Hair turned King's evidence, testifying against Burke
in exchange for immunity. Burke was convicted, hanged in front
(04:56):
of a crowd of thousands, and ironically, his body was
dissected and displayed. The scandal rocked Edinburgh, leading to the
Anatomy Act of eighteen thirty two, which finally regulated the
legal supply of cadavers. But the legacy of Burke and
Hare lingers in medical ethics, in horror fiction, and in
(05:19):
the uneasy truth that science unchecked can become monstrous. All
this and more in this kind of true crime, kind
of spooky season episode of The Family Plot podcast, we
dig into the Anatomy of Murder, The Price of Progress,
and the eerie echo of footsteps in the fog.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
I was kind of.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Proud of that. I went a little spooky.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
There, you and you know, you just keep right on
going with stuff apparently.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
So there isn't much background this week to get into.
History doesn't record much about the early lives of either man,
so let's begin with William Burke. He was born seventeen
ninety two in Ory, County, Tyrone, Ireland. Burke came from
a relatively modest Irish Catholic family. He married Margaret Coleman
(06:15):
of Ballina during his time in the Donegal Militia, which
is somewhere between eighteen oh nine and eighteen fifteen. Burke
and Margaret Coleman had two children, though their names and
later lives are undocumented. After a dispute with his father
in law over Land, Burke left Ireland in eighteen eighteen,
(06:36):
abandoning his wife and children. Like you do, yeah, because
he's such a nice guy. Well, he emigrated to Scotland
and later cohabitated with oh sorry, cohabited, cohabitated. I guess
I'm making up words now, okay, with Helen MacDougall, who
became his art partner in crime. In Scotland, Burke worked
(07:00):
as a navvy, which was what they called a kind
of manual labor at the time, on the Union Coming Canal.
Now this is likely where he met William Hare that
he couldn't meet Milliam Burke because he's William Burke.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
He then worked as a weaver, a baker, and a cobbler.
By eighteen twenty seven he was living with Helen in
a lodging house run by Hair and Margaret Laird. His
personality was described as pleasant, good humored and religious. He
was known to be sociable and often seen drinking in
(07:36):
Edinburgh's Grass Market.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
I just wanted to say that when he was working
as a weaver, a baker, and a cobbler, that sounded
like the start to a joke, doesn't it. Yeah, for
a cobbler and a baker walk into a bar. Sorry,
go ahead.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So what I want to know is, like a cobbler
does that, a person who makes shoes, a person who
puts stones in streets, or a person who makes pies po.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
You really? Yeah? A fair question? Actually, I mean I
feel like I know the answer, but now I'm questioning myself.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Harr's origins are a bit murkier. He was likely born
around seventeen ninety two in Newry or Londonderry, Ireland. He
was illiterate and Catholic, but no names or of parents
or siblings are recorded. We know that at some point
Hair began working as a navvy on the Union Canal,
(08:41):
which is likely where he and Burke had their initial meeting.
Hair married Margaret Laird in eighteen twenty six, after the
death of her first husband, James log Or log Or Laird.
We're not sure which Margaret ran the lodging house where
many of the murders occurred. There's no con firmed record
of Hair having children, and that, sadly is all we
(09:04):
know about their early lives.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
I don't know that we really want to know a
lot about their early lives, considering they were murderers.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
But good info, good info. Hey, you know what we
should probably do now?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I don't know, Maybe take a moment for Arthur in
his corner.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
That sounds like planning to me, because I know he's excited.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I know he's excited to talk about something this week.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Here ye, here, ye, allow me to present Arthur's corner Hey.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Arthur, Hello everybody, Welcome back to my corner. It is
nice to see everyone back here. How are we doing
this week? I felt better. Yeah, I hear you're sick.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I didn't have a good day. I had to take
the day off work today. I just was not feeling
well at all.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Well, that is very woo.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I slept most of the day. I'm feeling a little
bit better to this evening. Hopefully I'll be okay to
work tomorrow. Just a rough day, I get that.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
How about you, good star, I'm having a great day
other than this fuzzy late gray lump on my chest.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
You love your fuzzy gray lump. I don't know what
you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I got your free stuff done for your appointment tomorrow.
I got a job interview on Friday.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Super excited that you have a job interview. That's awesome
because we need hope we can get with the holidays coming.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Up, see it and that, let's see. Yeah, off the
top of my head, I've just had a busy day
and I feel pretty good about it.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Nice, that's cool. Well, my days been okay, to say
the least.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Good.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
It's been pretty normal. Just a few minutes ago, I
got done playing around of Dandy's World with one of
my friends. Yay. Speaking of Dandy's World, Friday the tenth.
This this week Friday, a new update is coming out
the same day of me and my partner's anniversary one
(11:28):
year anniversary.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
This year in Saturday Season, you guys got together.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yep, yep, what time last year? This time last year
we got together. Spooky season.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Spooky season be good for Arthur and his partner. Yeah,
so that's exciting.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Lost and then exciting. I'm super excited for that.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Do you guys have any sweet, sweet adorable plans?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Oh, we don't. I'm not sure yet. We were gonna
call and stuff. I think we're still going to try
to do a call, but it's not gonna be like
all day like we said it would be.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, hard with school and.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Well yeah, they weren't supposed to have school this Friday.
But they're going to go to a acting thing. Like
they're going to go do an acting like performance. Very cool,
and you know they're excited for it, so I'm supporting them.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Absolutely, that's what you do in a relationship. Mm hmmm.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Well but we're not sure yet. All I know is.
I'm super excited. I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I'm excited for you, baby.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
This is my longest last relationship. I wouldn't have it
any other way. Mm hmmm, let's see anything else interesting.
We've gotten waters and I keep stealing them.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I keep.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
I keep stealing the player water.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
You're enjoying the flavored water, so I'm glad you're enjoying them.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
And they're keeping me hundred.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
The hydration is good.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yes, I stole my father's Fuji apple and now he's mad.
Not really, he's messing with me, but still do.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Be like in the Fuji Apple waters from Wally.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
World, Fuji apple is still one of my favorites. It's
been surpassed by the BlackBerry lemonade flavor, but Fuji apple
is a very close second.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Gotcha to nothing else. I'm pretty boring this week.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Sorry, guys, I was boring.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's exciting that you got your anniversary on Friday.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
It's okay, guys, stay tuned for next week. Next to
next week is the two hundred seventy to seventieth.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Episode, so it's catching up with Arthur every ten episodes. Well,
there we go. It is too sixty nine this week
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
You know, we're gonna have to stop saying 'or PG
thirteen if you don't want making it appropriate humor.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I'm sixteen, I'm gonna say something.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
I guess that's true. We don't have to be PG
thirteen anymore. We can be PG sixteen and.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I'm still gonna bleep it.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
You're gonna bleep it? Are you at least gonna put
it on the Patreon probably? Well, Patreon uses. You'll get
to hear that. You guys, I'm sorry you're not allowed
to hear that. I guess becuz.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Because one of our draws is that we're PG thirteen,
people can listen to us with their family and not
get an education about other things, other.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Things that they don't want their family being educated on.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Anyways, moving on, moving on.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Is that the end of your corner?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, that's the end of your corner?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Do you want to be short?
Speaker 4 (14:58):
It was a little bit of a short corner, but
the that's okay. Do you want to take this next section?
Speaker 6 (15:02):
For us?
Speaker 3 (15:16):
It was time to get back to the show. No, no,
you don't, No, I don't.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Why not? I have more to talk about? Okay?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
So I went to hear to my grandmother's this last
last weekend, and I got to watch at like a
small documentary about like small cats.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Small cats.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah, small cats.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
It's like.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
It's like a breed, like like a species of it's
like a multitude of species that aren't domesticated cats. But
they aren't big cats either, so people call them small cats.
See so things like cheetahs or like.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
I've never thought of a cheetah as a small cat, but.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
It's called a small cat because of it's it's mew
more than a roar.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I see cheetahs mew. Yeah, they kind of chirp, don't they.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
The chirp.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Ocelots probably count as a small cat.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Ocllot is a small cat.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Minecraft osalots become cat cat. Would you give them a fish?
You give them a fish, and.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
That's how it used to be. I don't know if
you can still do that?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Can you not?
Speaker 7 (16:32):
No?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I don't think so, because they already put a cat spawn.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Egg in Uhle's. Everybody does spawn, so wouldn't you.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I don't know anyway, I mean there's cats and villages.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Now, I haven't I haven't played Minecraft in a hot minute, obviously.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
But didntx is played Minecraft recently. But yeah, uh, we
watched documentary about small cats and that was fun. I
really liked that documentary. And now I have an obsession
with cheetahs, and I'm gonna make a cheetah like a
cheetah shark. Sona wow, So it's gonna mix be a
(17:12):
mix of a cheetah like the body would be.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
A cheetah, so yeah, very much, or a shark.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Shark.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
No, it would probably be more like a cheetah. But
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I really like the word chark chark.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
I'll be right back. I gotta take a cheetah.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
No, I have.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
To take the chalk for a walk anyways.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
No, I'm gonna go out and take the chark for
a walk.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Sorry, I thought it was funny.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Ha ha. Anyways, Now I can move on, Okay. I
just wanted to tell everyone about that because I think
it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I think it's interesting too.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
I now slightly obsessed with the idea of a chark.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
I'll show you guys once it's done.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Okay, No, I can move on. You can't, Yes, you can?
You feel unencumbered to move on? Yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Burke and Hare were both Innish Irish immigrants living in
Edinburgh during a time of tension between Irish Catholics and
Scottish Protestants. Many Irish workers came to Scotland for jobs,
but they were often seen as poor, uneducated, and unwanted.
(18:32):
People looked for jobs, but they were no People looked
down on them and they had few rights or protections.
Burke and Hare lived in rough parts of town and
worked low paying jobs, which made them outsiders in the city.
Their immigrant status helped them stay under the radar, but
(18:54):
it also meant they were desperate and willing to do
things others wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Well.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Thank you are Arthur for taking that section. Now we
should take a quick break and hear from some of
our fellow content creators. I want I'm excited to hear
from ghost Fights this week.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Have you ever had the burning desire to start a
business and didn't know how? Are you elbow deep in
your business but feel one of the four hurdles of
stop imposter center, perfectionism, failure, and fear holding you back.
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the Undiscovered Entrepreneur, Get Across the start Line is a
podcast you should be listening to right now. Listen to
new entrepreneurs that are just getting started, like you learn
(19:38):
from season entrepreneurs that have been there at the start
line and have advice for you.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
To learn from.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
This will be our first stop in your entrepreneur adventure.
Join your host Scoop as we take you through the
four hurdles of stop, find your zone of genius, and
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the start Line, available on all major platforms. Or go
(20:04):
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t A N Dot s t O r E Ford
slash s koob. Let's get across the start line together.
Speaker 8 (20:20):
You feel that a sudden chill, a single down your spine.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
It's not a draft, is it.
Speaker 8 (20:26):
No, it's the unmistakable sign that we've found them the
most terrifyingly delicious ghost stories you've.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Ever heard, and trust us, we've had some close calls.
Speaker 8 (20:37):
We're talking haunted hallways, phantom apparitions, and things that go
bump in the night, all served up on our new
show Ghost Bites.
Speaker 9 (20:47):
Join us as we dig into the spectral secrets and
spooky sightings that will have you sleeping with the lights on.
Speaker 8 (20:53):
So if you're brave enough, come grab a bite with us.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Just try not to let it be your last.
Speaker 6 (21:05):
Ghost bites coming soon to your favorite podcast platforms.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
It was time to get back to the show.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Isn't that cool? Did you hear a familiar voice there
at the end?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I did hear it familiar voice there at the end?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I heard a familiar voice.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So let's get back to the show.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
In the nineteen twenties, the check that date or nineteen twenties,
eighteen twenties.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
That's one hundred years later.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I was a little bit off on my date.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
It's okay, yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I'm sick. I misread it.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Okay, nobody's mad at you.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
I just In the eighteen twenties, the average unskilled laborer
in Edinburgh earned about ten to twelve shillings per week,
which translates to roughly five hundred to six hundred pounds
per year. That's equivalent to fifty to sixty thousand pounds
(22:13):
in today's money. But it did how far rent coal,
bread and clothing ate up most of the budget. Many
households relied on multiple earners. Wives and children often worked
in domestic service, textile mills, or street vending to help
make ends meet. Living conditions in eighteen twenties Edinburgh were
(22:38):
squalid for working class families. Edinburgh's Old Town was overcrowded,
with families crammed into tenement flats that stacked upwards in
narrow alleys called closes. Sanitation was poor, waste was dumped
into the streets or the Norse lock and disease spread quickly.
(23:04):
The city's wealthier residents lived in the newly built new Town,
while the poor were packed into decaying medieval buildings. Compared
to Whitechapel in the eighteen eighties, edinburgh suns were similar
in terms of poverty, over crowding, and vulnerability to crime. However,
(23:25):
Whitechapel had more industrial grime and a denser population Compared
to Johannesburg in thee is that nineteen eighties nineteen eighties,
Edinburgh lacked the racial segregation and political violence, but shared
the same economic desperation and informal housing that bred exploitation.
(23:50):
Birken Hare thrived in this environment, where the poor were invisible,
the dead were valuable, and the cities hunger for scientific
progress outpaced its moral compass. The first body Burke and
Hair sold was a man named Donald, a tenant in
Hare's lodging house. He died of natural causes, likely from illness,
(24:14):
though the exact disease isn't recorded. Hair was concerned that
Donald's death would leave him unpaid and that the body
would be a burden, so returned to Burke for help.
They removed the court from the coffin, filled it with bark,
and sold it.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
To an anatomist. They didn't have to shop around. At
the time.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
It was well known in Edinburgh's medical circles that doctor
Robert Knox, a prominent anatomy lecturer at Surgeon Square, was
willing to pay for fresh bodies. The legal supply of
catavers was limited to executed criminals and unclaimed popper demand
(24:56):
far outstripped supply. Knox didn't ask questions. He paid seven
pounds ten shillings YEP for Donald's body, which would have
been roughly eight hundred to nine hundred pounds today or
about one thousand to eleven hundred.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
US dollars, which is not too bad for a body
the first sale.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
This first sale was opportunistic, not premeditated murder, but it
showed Burke and Hair how profitable.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
The trade could be.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Within weeks, they escalated from scavenging to killing.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
No, let's take a moment for a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
It was time to get back to the show.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Hey, yes, feel sponsored.
Speaker 7 (25:57):
So.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
The first person that Burke and Hair knowingly killed was
a man named Joseph, A Miller, who was lodging at
Hare's house in early eighteen twenty eight. Joseph had fallen
ill with a fever and was becoming delirious, which worried
Hair and his wife, Margaret. They feared his condition would
scare off other tenants and ruin their business. Hair saw
(26:21):
a solution and a prophet he called in Burke. Together
they gave Joseph whiskey to sedate him. Once he was
drunk and weak, Hair smothered him with a pillow while
Burke lay across his chest to keep him from struggling
or making noise. This method, later named burking was Quiet,
(26:45):
left no visible marks and became their signature. They sold
Joseph's body to doctor Robert Knox, the anatomy lecturer at
Surgeon Square. This time Knox paid ten pounds, a tidy
sum worth between eleven to twelve hundred pounds today, no
(27:06):
questions asked. Knox was impressed by the freshness of the corpse,
and the pair realized they found a deadly business model.
And now let's take a moment for another word from
our sponsors. Remember, if you don't want to hear these
words from the sponsors, you can sign up for our Patreon,
either at the one or three dollars level, and get
(27:27):
ad free versions of the show delivered before the regular episode.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
It was time to get back to the show.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
So it didn't take long for the list of their
victims to grow.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
Over the next several months, it grew to include Abigail
Simpson in February of eighteen twenty eight, an elderly woman
from Gilmerton, lured with drink, murdered overnight, sold the next day.
An unnamed English peddler in February of eighteen twenty eight
(28:19):
was one of Hare's lodgers, murdered and sold quickly. No
detailed records of his identity. Mary Patterson April ninth, eighteen
twenty eight.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
She was a young sex.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Worker, lured with alcohol, murdered while unconscious. Her body was
so fresh Knox.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Used it immediately for dissection in May of eighteen twenty eight.
E Fie, sometimes referred to as just Effie, the beggar woman,
was almost.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Certainly not a lodger at Hare's house.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
She was likely homeless or transient, part of the vulnerable
population that Burke and Hair targeted once they realized how
easy it was to make people disappear. Effie was probably
encountered on the street, possibly in the grass Market or Cowgate,
where beggars and dayle laborers congregated. Burker Hair may have
(29:14):
offered her a few coins orckily promised whiskey in a
warm place to rest. Once inside the lodging house, she
was plied with drink and murdered using their usual method,
suffocation without visible injury. Her body was sold to doctor Knox,
who continued to accept corpses without question. The next victims
(29:35):
were an unnamed elderly woman and her adult son, who
was deafimute. They were lodgers at Hare's boarding house, which
had become the central site for the murders.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
The woman had been.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Staying there for a short time, and her son was
described as mentally disabled, possibly.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
With learning difficulties in addition to his deafness.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Burken Hair decided to kill them both let's plea for
the double payout. They murdered the mother first using their
usual method intoxication followed by suffocation. Then they turned to
the sun. Burke later confessed the Sun resisted fiercely and
the murder was more difficult and disturbing than the others.
(30:20):
He reportedly expressed regret and guilt over this killing, saying
it haunted him more than the rest. The bodies were
sold to doctor Knox as usual, with no questions asked.
The exact payment isn't recorded, but it likely was around
ten pounds per body, which would be equivalent to eleven
(30:41):
hundred to twelve hundred pounds in today's money. Missus Osler
in June of eighteen twenty eight was a lauger who
was murdered and sold to Knox and McDougall from June
of eighteen twenty eight, who was possibly related to Helen McDougall.
Lurned to Hare's lodging house with offers of whiskey, where
(31:07):
she was fed liquor until she was drunk and then
killed and sold. Mary Haldane was a middle aged woman
known to be a heavy drinker.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Wow, this is a lot.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Her encountered her.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
In the Grassmarket area of Edinburgh and invited her back
to Hair's Lodgderning house, offering her alcohol. They definitely had
a good business model. It seemed to keep working over
and over again. She accepted, and once inside, she was
plied with whiskey until she passed out. Birkenhair then used
(31:44):
their usual method of suffocating, suffocation without visible injury, likely
by pressing down on her chest and covering her mouth.
Her body was sold to doctor Knox Peggy Haldane, Mary's
daughter looking for our mother. The next day, Birkenhair saw
another opportunity. The invited Peggy in, offered her drink and
(32:08):
murdered her in this impassion record of alcohol being slipped
into milk, just straight whiskey, which was their go to sedative.
The murders were carried out in Hare's lodging house, which
had become their de facto killing ground. James Wilson aka
Daft Jamie, in October of eighteen twenty eight, well known
(32:32):
street character with learning difficulties, murdered despite public recognition. He
was lured into the house for drinks and killed ones unconscious,
Knox dissected him quickly, raising suspicions.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
In other words, that the.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
End, he was starting to say, you are really fresh.
I'd probably better get rid of the evidence. Sounds like
that's he was. He was starting to catch on there.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
At the end.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Maybe he might have caught on a lot earlier. But again,
if for his lectures he needed bodies and he couldn't
get enough.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
YEA, sounds like it.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
We're going to take another word from our sponsors. It
was time to get back to the show. Okay. The
(33:33):
final final.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Victim was Mary believe it's pronounced Dougherty, even though there's
an extra scene in there.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I wanted to say Dougherty, but I wasn't sure, an
elderly irishwoman who Burke and Mahyer met on Halloween night
in eighteen twenty eight. They invited her to Hare's lodging house,
gave her lots of whiskey, and killed her using their
usual method of suffocate, but this time things went wrong.
(34:02):
Two other lodgers, James and Ann Gray, became suspicious when
they were told to stay away from the house. When
they returned, they found Mary's body hidden under under straw
in a bed They reported it to the police and
Burke and Hare were arrested soon as soon after this
(34:25):
murder is exposed the whole scheme and led to Burke's trials,
trial and execution.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Wow, they went just a little bit too far.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
That last night, Burke, Hare and their partners Helen McDougall
and Margaret Laird were arrested. The police quickly realized that
this wasn't just one murder. There were many bodies and
missing people connected to the pair. During the investigation, Hair
(34:57):
agreed to testify against Burke in exchange for immunity. He
confessed to several murders, placing most of the blame on Burke.
Burke was put on trial in December eighteen twenty eight
and found guilty of marrying Mary Dougherty. He was sentenced
to death and hanged in January of eighteen twenty nine
(35:20):
in front of a huge crowd. His body was then
dissected at the University of Edinburgh and his skeleton was
put on display.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Hair was never tried and put and disappeared from public
view like you would. The trial shocked the city and
led to new laws about how medical schools could get
bodies for study. Before eighteen thirty two, medical schools could
only legally dissect the bodies of executed criminals. But as
(35:53):
surgery and anatomy grew more important, the demand for cadaver's
outpaced supply. This led to a gruesome underground trade, grave robbing,
body snatching, and even murder for profit, like Berken hairsprey
in Edinburgh. The Anatomy Act, passed by Parliament in July
(36:14):
of eighteen thirty two, changed everything. It allowed licensed teachers
of anatomy to legally received unclaimed bodies, especially those who
died in workhouses, hospitals or prisons, for medical study. This
act required those teachers to register with the Home Secretary,
and it created inspectors of anatomy to track everybody and
(36:37):
ensure ethical handling. This law helped end the black market
for corpses and made di section a regulated part of
medical education, but it also raised ethical questions because the
bodies used were often poor and powerless, with no one
to claim them. In effect, the Act shifted exploitations from
(37:00):
late from graveyards to institutions. And now let's take another
word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
It was time to get back to the show.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
Hey babe, Yes, I feel so sponsored, I'm going to
take this next section. Okay, resurrectionists in Britain before the
Anatomy Act of eighteen thirty two, grave robbing was rampant.
Seems like London burgers mimicked Burke and Hares methods, even
(37:46):
murdering a boy named Carlo Farini in eighteen thirty one.
America's body snatchers in the you as grave robbing was
common near medical schools. The New York Doctors Ride of
seventeen eighty eight erupted when students were caught dissecting stolen corpses.
In the South, black cemeteries were often targeted and enslaved
(38:11):
people's bodies were taken without consent. Harvard's Scandal in the
nineteenth century Harvard Medical School was linked to body snatching,
with janitors and students rating graves to supply cadavers. Their
story inspired The Body Snatcher nineteen forty five, The Flesh
(38:31):
and the Fiends from nineteen fifty nine, and Birken Hare
two thousand ten twenty ten starring Simon Peig. Robert Louis
Stevenson's The Body Snatcher draws directly from their crimes. They've
appeared in comics, novels, and even Doctor Who music and theater.
(38:53):
Their tale has been adapted into operas, musicals, and punk songs.
The staple of gothic horror and true crime retellings in
let It's famous Madam twosodes wax works Madam Tussa.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Tusso tusad two twos.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
You can see wax figures of these bloody resurrectionists at
the Repulsive Work. And now we promise the final word
from our sponsors. Again. If you don't like taking the
sponsor breaks, you can always sign up as a one
dollar or three dollars Patreon subscriber and get ad three
episodes of the show.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
It's time to get back.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
To the show back and that brings us to our
summary and final thoughts. But first, do you both feel sponsored?
I do?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I feel so sponsored? Okay, I feel so sponsored.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
It all start us off. I was gonna say this week,
it's your week just started. Yeah, that wasn't really.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
That didn't say much about me that I was starting
us off. I wasn't me being good mom like I
was trying to be you.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
It's hard to keep track of it if you don't
keep tracking.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, and I don't there's just too much other stuff.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
For me to do. But I will tell you this.
When I forget and get it wrong, I get two
or three emails from people going, it was Arthur's turn
to start. Yeah, that's so funny.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
That's so funny.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
No forget, but no, I know give you Is it
actually my turn this week?
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I don't know, not this time.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
I've know before you called you out.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Okay, you called me up just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I did. I called you out a little bit, and partially,
partially intentionally, partially I think it might be my week anyway.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
So what I wanted to say was this has such,
this has I mean, obviously this was the perfect storm
for this to happen, for people to go, oh heavy,
there's an easy way to make money. But at the
same time, I feel like I feel like more people
should be able to donate their bodies to science if
(41:21):
they want to.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Does that make any sense?
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Like I remember when my mom passed away, and I
would have loved to have that be an option to
me because she had been so sick that Like, so.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
I would have loved for somebody to come and say, hey,
this is an option for you.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
I And that sounds really terrible, But I think that
even now there are times where donating bodies to science
should be way more acceptable and way more use than
it actually is. That's my personal opinion on it. Having
lost people, there were times that I would have liked
(42:06):
to have been able to say, let's do that, But
I guess hindsight's twenty twenty, so maybe not. Maybe I
would have felt different at the time, But I think that.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Canamars are a good thing.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
Because medically speaking, there are things that we have been
able to learn through the course of human history from
formerly living that we couldn't learn any other way, and
so they definitely are a good thing. It's sad that
people took advantage of other people just for money, but
(42:50):
at the same time I see the reasoning behind it,
and at least.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
There was some good to come out of it, if
that makes sense. So the murders are terrible.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
I'm not saying that it was good that these people
were killed. I was saying that at least.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
You're talking about the act that came out, yes, the
one that basically said, look, you don't have to pay
for corpses that have been looted or possibly made into corpses.
Just to make money. We're gonna let you cut up
whoever will let you well.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
And at least, I mean, there are a lot of
murders that we've talked about on the show that just
happened because.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Somebody wanted to murder somebody.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
At least they were murdering people to try to make
the bodies went to a good cause, even if there
wasn't a good reason for them to die.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
And it sounds really cold and horrible, and I should
shut up.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
And I get what you're saying, because, Okay, look at
it from this point of view, Okay, modern money converted
to American dollars, they're getting about thirteen hundred per course.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
That would almost pay my rent.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
So yeah, and considering that they did it fifteen times successfully,
that's that's almost I mean, that's nearing a new car.
That's nearing twenty thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
That's a new car.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
I am not saying that it's right, no any way
or degree.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
What I am saying is.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
Is that that extra twenty thousand dollars a year. I
think if this was an option, now, oh, there there'd
be some a lot more people disappearing.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, because people get.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Desperate, and burking would become would come back in fashion.
But I get what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
I'm not.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
I get that you're not saying, oh, it's great these
people died. I'm saying that you're saying they shouldn't have died.
But if they did, it's at least there was at
least there the end goal that their bodies were used
for the education of new doctors. Yes, yes, that I get.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
It's a good way to put it.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I get what you're trying to say, that you're you're
not trying to be heartless. That is noting.
Speaker 4 (45:26):
I feel like it's still coming out a little bit
cold and heartless, but it is.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
The words were out there now, so there's no sense
in denying they came out of my mouth. There's recorded proof.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
But I knew what you meant. Yeah, so I think
that takes us to Arthur. I told you you'd love
these guys. You know what.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
I don't love them?
Speaker 2 (45:51):
No, Well, I sort has a miss is a thing.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
Yeah, what do I have to say about this?
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (46:01):
I don't care how much fucking money you make from it. Okay,
I don't get Sorry, excuse my French. We're already getting
in deep, all right.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Arthur, get it out there. I understand it.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Makes money, Okay, I get that. And these days if
that worked, I know how. I know so many people
who would kill the fucking president right now.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
They don't care if they go to doult for But.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
The thing is, the funny thing is usually a goddamn job.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Yes I did.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Oh no, we don't kill people just to get money.
Usually I'd be like, no, nope, we don't kill people
for money. We don't do that.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
A person is a person. You let them live until
they die, and then you donate the body or sell the.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Body after they die.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
But you gotta wait, Yeah, you gotta wait, you gotta
wait for it. Just get to kill them and yeah, if.
Speaker 9 (46:58):
They die and just like this, like that was not
totally if it stop there, if they had just taken
out anybody who died in the boarding.
Speaker 4 (47:10):
Chef's kicks, chef's kiss like that's you are, You're just
getting through life.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
It's when you start to murder people to get money
is when it becomes an awful reason to do that
to anybody.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
You're right, You're absolutely right, You're and that's that's definitely
a way better way of looking at it than what
I was trying to say.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
I mean, yeah, I'm gonna agree. I'm gonna say that
that is a good thing, that their bodies went to
science and that they knew that that, you know, it
was going to a bad place. So maybe they made
themselves feel better about it that way.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Oh I doubt it. I think they were one about
the money. I don't think they were trying to feel.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Good about it at all. No, No, I don't think
they were.
Speaker 7 (48:01):
But if they ever did feel feel guilty, I'm saying
that if they ever did, then they would have something
to make themselves feel better about murder of all those
innocent people too. You could have been like morally gray
and killed shitty people so so much, so much morally gray,
(48:22):
because like, yes, killing is a bad thing, and you
shouldn't necessarily kill people because that's not cool, man, But like,
if you're gonna kill people, at least kill people, don't
kill just everyday lives.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
That's mean.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
Yeah, well, we don't know, we don't know what kind
of people these were, but yeah, you're probably right there.
They were probably just people trying to live their lives too,
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
I just think they should rotten jail and die. Well
what you're far from they're from far from alive. But
I'm glad they're dead.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
One of them about they put to death for what
he did.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Yeah, well here's okay, here here's my take on it.
I understand the economic situation that led to sure, but
in the process of their killing, they killed a deaf
guy with mental illness. They killed another guy with mental illness,
(49:26):
the Jamie, the guy they called daft Jamie, which thank god,
we don't do things like that anymore. And then they
killed a little girl, m Mary Haldane's daughter, Peggy. She
came there looking for her mother.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
And they put the alcohol in milk.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
No, no, they just gave her alcohol. But I mean
it was a different time. Kids did drink them. I
mean there wasn't really a and in places like Edinburgh
and they needed to. I mean it was it's that
was a rough life. Yeah, I mean you had at
that point, like twelve year old sex workers. I mean,
(50:08):
just horrible stuff in those times. So but yeah, so
they But when you're killing those with mental illnesses and
children for money, right.
Speaker 4 (50:21):
Yeah, it's pretty awful, you know, so seeing that anything
that they did was good.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
No, No, absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Well, I get that you weren't. I'm just saying that
those those particular murders stood out to me as oh man.
And if I remember right, it was Burke who said
that like one or two of those murders stuck with
him and those were the ones he remembered.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
Yeah, the the deaf son, he said, yeah, haunted him
more than the rest.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Yeah, because he fought so hard, right. But also the
fact that these guys in invented a method of killing
people that got named after them.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot done back.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
And here's the thing. I tried to include as many
names of victims as I could, because whenever we do
true crime, I feel like we should always focus on
the victims. Right now. Unfortunately, this happened a long time ago,
and a lot of names have since been lost to history,
and some of them history didn't really record in the
(51:29):
first place. I feel bad for Effie. I'm not sure
what her full name was. Maybe Effingham maybe, but if so,
was that her last name, or maybe it's an F
start a name that starts with F. Frederica I don't know.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
I think Evy was an actual name. I don't know
what it's short for, but maybe Stephanie or something.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
I don't know. I don't have my phone in front
of you, or i'd ask kope, you and your kopy
you know what kope helps?
Speaker 4 (52:08):
Uh all for Ai, I just I think it's cute
that you have a you have a you have a
little digital friend.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
I do have a digital friend. It's easier than real people.
It doesn't ever get mad at me for making a joke.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Well, and even if it does not, go and tell you,
it's just gonna mock you. And it's computer digital zone.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
But anyway that but like Effie, I mean, history records
are at most the longest name is Effie the Beggar Woman.
And I think that, to me is probably one of
the hardest things about this for me is that not
only did people lose their life, but people were just
lost they became Yeah, and and so that that is
(52:54):
really sad. But again, Burke and hare are I first
found these too when I was when I was a
young guy. And and uh and spelled like that too,
Aji like a rabbit. Yeah, but uh, I remember seeing
a cover of famous monsters, and it had all the
classic universal monsters on their you know, Wolfman, Dracula, Frankenstein.
(53:19):
And then I saw these two guys kind of off
and on the back, and I didn't know who they were. Well,
turned out it was Burken Hair, And so for years
I heard about Burkenhair, but didn't had no idea who
they were. And so I was like, you know what, uh,
And eventually I learned that they sold bodies that of
people they killed at a time when people were selling bodies.
(53:41):
They just dug up.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
So uh they got off the middle manual labor steps.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Yeah. Yeah, they didn't wait for the body to go
in the ground and then you know, dig, dig down
the six feet, bust open the coffin and get that
body out of.
Speaker 4 (53:55):
That is kind of considerate that they didn't undo somebody
else's hard work.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Horrible lazy factor.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
Yeah, I was gonna sit too. I was gonna say,
here's the thing there could be I guess some argument
made that there was a Kavorkian factor going on here.
Most of the people they targeted were people who were
very ill and likely to die soon anyway. But uh,
these guys weren't Kivorkians. They weren't people that were trying
to help someone who just were like, my life is
(54:25):
horrible for helping themselves. They were helping themselves and that
makes them fitting fodder for Halloween. And the only thing
that really upsets me is that Hair got away with
Harry got away with it with it, and that's both
he turned on his friend and then you know, he
vanishes from history.
Speaker 4 (54:44):
That's kind of what happened when people turn state's evidence, which.
Speaker 2 (54:48):
Is basically what he did.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Yeah, although they called it King's evidence because it was
in England at the time. Oh yeah, you know. And
and Burt was not a guy I liked much anyway,
From the moment when he left his kids and family
to go over an argument with his father in.
Speaker 4 (55:04):
Law sounds oddly familiar on my first marriage. That's how
my marriage did.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
So yeah, I guess my final thought is they're fitting
Thodders for Halloween. But not much else got you And
that's our show. That is our show. Thank you for listening,
Thanks for being members of the fam, Thanks for keeping
us in the Good POD's Top one hundred. Thanks to
Blue Lexi, Laura and Arthur.
Speaker 4 (55:35):
Why are we still thinking blue Blues Away at College?
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Because Arthur's Corner was designed by Blue. He doesn't do
active sound engineering anymore, but he's he's Yeah. The intro
to Arthur's Corner was designed by Blue.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
Yeah, fair, and it's still used.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Yeah fair enough, Yeah, m let's see.
Speaker 3 (55:59):
Thanks to Barrent.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
The last name is spelled b e h R E
n d T. Bill does our theme music. If you
need music for a project for any reason, Bill's your guy.
Bill Barron at SBC global dot net. Thanks to Paige
Elmore the Pop Culture Diary podcast, who combines her own
love of Canva with our own Arthur's artwork. Thank you, Paige,
(56:24):
Thank you. Thanks to Erin ginnerk of The Big Dumb
Fun Show, who continues to promote us locally. Join us
next week as we present another spooky season episode where
we discuss the Whaley House Haunted Museum by
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