Sophie Flack - Ballerina (NYC Ballet) / Author (Bunheads) / Jewelry Designer (Mad Fine) - Fascination Street

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Jule Vascuz and you're listening to Fascination Street
Podcast with your host, the Great Steve Owens. Yeah, yes,
the visual down the most into street in the world
with my voice d Fascination Street already knows. Get it

(00:22):
when you wait for the Fascination Street. Welcome back to
street Walkers. This episode is with Sophie Flack. Sophie is
a former New York City ballerina What turned novelist what
and writer for some of the most prestigious magazines and
platforms in the world, and then also she started her

(00:46):
own line of jewelry. In this episode, we talk about
all those things from growing up somewhat sheltered in Massachusetts
and the reason I say sheltered will become clear once
she starts telling that story. Talk about her path to
becoming a member of the Corps de Ballet for the
New York City Ballet. She was there from two thousand

(01:08):
and one to two thousand and nine when she retired,
and then after that she went to Columbia University got
a degree, wrote a book. She wrote a young adult
novel called Bunheads, which draws on her experiences as a
ballet dancer and some of the struggles that are involved
with that particular career path. So we talk about all
of that, and then we also talk about her jewelry line.

(01:30):
A few years ago, she started Simper Augustus, which was
a fine jewelry line, and then she sort of branched
off and created a second jewelry line called mad Fine
m A Dfine. Eventually she merged those two branches into
one United brand called mad Fine. We talked about some

(01:53):
of Mad Fine's collections. They are uniquely categorized in a
way that makes sense for some of the profits and
organizations that she is donating proceeds to. I first found
Sophie as a result of speaking with her friend and
former guest, the Great Yulo Vaskaz. In that episode, he

(02:13):
was explaining about a piece that he had bought for
his wife, and he told me about Sophie and her company,
and I had to reach out, and Sophie was kind
enough to give me so much of her time. I
really really appreciate it. Sophie, you are the bees Knees.
Maybe you can do a piece called the Bee's Knees.
Sophie is very open and vulnerable in this episode. I
really really appreciate the truthfulness and the honesty that she

(02:36):
brought to the show. So thank you again, Sophie. I
super appreciate it. Everybody go check out Madfine Dot shop,
follow her all over the social medias, and tell her
how much you enjoyed this episode. And this is my
conversation with retired ballerina turned author turned fine jewelry entrepreneur
Sophie Flack for better be fascinating, for Gretta to be fascinating,

(03:05):
for Beretta to be fascinating. Welcome to Fascination Street Podcasts.
Sophie Flack, how you doing today?

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Good? I mean, it's so hot out.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Did you say it's hot as balls?

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (03:22):
I did. That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
It's a good way to start the interview.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
My friend, he uh, one day he was talking to
his wife and she was like, how was work today?
And he goes, oh my god, it was hot as balls?
And she goes, what, He goes, who's hot his ball?
She goes, who says that? Nobody says that? What's wrong
with you? And since since she told him nobody says that,
he's probably heard fifty different people say it, and he's
just like, hmm, okay, So ladies and gentlemen. This is

(03:54):
Sophie Flack. We are going to get to know her,
and boy, are you going to be impressed? Sophie. What
I like to do is I like to start off
from the beginning. It helps us understand how the guests
got from where they were to where they are. So
where we want to raise? Where'd you grow up?

Speaker 2 (04:08):
I'm from Watertown, Massachusetts.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Man, do you say Watertown or do you say Waterton?
Or do you say pack the cat and have it yacht?
Or what do you say over there?

Speaker 2 (04:17):
I just say Watertown because my parents aren't from Boston.
My mom's from Baltimore, my dad's from North Carolina. So yeah,
but I moved to New York at fifteen a train
to be a ballet.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Answer by yourself? You moved to New York?

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Okay, hold on now, hold on now, you moved to
New York from Watertown? When you're fifteen, you move by yourself.
You're just like, hey, well, i'll see y'all later, Pee,
I'm gonna go do something at fifteen. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
It feels really nuts now, especially like reflecting on who
I was back then.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
What does that mean? Are you a different person? No?

Speaker 2 (04:54):
I just I'm really shy. I was having a hard time,
and I mean, I think like adolescent and coming into
your teen years is really challenging for a lot of people.
I suffered a lot. So for me the move was
like it felt really important just as a person. I
wanted to like find my people, and I was hoping
to find them in New York. But it turned out

(05:15):
when I got to New York everyone was from somewhere else.
At the School of American Ballet, where I lived at
the time, they had a scholarship program and people came
from all of the United States in a variety of backgrounds,
and I realized for the first time that I'd been
living in a really progressive bubble. I went to school
in Cambridge, but I was exposed to like the rest

(05:38):
of the United States for the first time, which was
really interesting. In New York City, I experienced like anti
Semitism for the first time, and a lot of biases
I just wasn't exposed to at my Quaker school.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Quaker school aside, the Boston area in Massachusetts as a whole,
really is one of the things they're known for besides
lobster and baked beans. For some reason, is that they're
all assholes, like they don't tolerate anybody else. So how
did you grow up in this bubble?

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, they're not like some racism and stuff. What Yeah,
just being there's a nickname mass whole. I feel like
I can't speak for all of the state.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Why not, you don't live there anymore. Go ahead, knock
yourself up, Go sick.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
My parents are really progressive, like intellectual liberals, and my
sister and I went to really progressive schools, which I
didn't really understand like the point until I like recently,
I'm forty one now, just how like formative that kind
of education was.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Actually, So when you say, I'm sorry, I'm going to
interrupt you a lot. So when you say you and
your sister went to progressive schools, are you talking about
like your primary schools and middle schools and things like that,
high schools and whatever?

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Elementary school? Yeah? I did one year of high school
in math.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
Were these private schools? Why were they so liberal?

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yeah? I didn't go to public school. I went to
private schools. Okay, the school system was not super strong
at the time.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, they were teaching racism and anti semitism.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, yeah, so I first went to a Jewish day school.
My mom is Jewish, so I learned actually conversational Hebrew
until like second or third grade, and then.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
All right, hit me with some conversational Hebrew.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
Oh man, it's been a minute, But I remember all
the prayers, a lot of the songs. I can understand,
like basic words. But I have the Schma tattooed on
my arm, which is the prayer you say before you
go to bed and when you wake up in the morning.
And I've said it to myself since I was very little,
whenever I feel frightened or whenever I feel like someone

(07:42):
else might need protection or safety. It became kind of
a superstition for me.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Remember when I said I was going to interrupt you
a lot, Yeah, please, Okay, So you have a Jewish
prayer tattooed on your arm. Now, I don't know a
whole lot about Judaism, but I'm pretty sure that Jews
aren't supposed to get tattoos. So it's really funny that
you tattoo the juice. Fair.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, fair. I believe that if you're going to get
a tattoo, getting like the most sacred prayer tattooed is
probably the way to go.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Sure, something meaningful. Yeah, I mean, if it's the word
of God, not.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Going to be mad about it, right, Yeah, but even
like super religious people like don't take that rule, like
very seriously.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
I take an art class and there's a Hasidic woman
who's in my art class, and she's like, yeah, that's
like people don't really believe that anymore.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
Okay, so sorry, back to your parents. So, first of all,
who are your parents?

Speaker 2 (08:43):
Frand Foreman and Bob Flack. Fran is a fine artist.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
Now she's a photographer, right.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, she does digital collage.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
I think I have this right? Did your mom do well?
Like you're familiar with all of your mom's work, But
there's a photo painting whatever it's called Night Hotel. Is
that your mom?

Speaker 2 (09:01):
It's possible. I'd have to see an image. Can you
flash something on the screen?

Speaker 1 (09:05):
How about that?

Speaker 2 (09:06):
It definitely looks like her stuff. I don't know that
it is.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
I'm pretty sure this was on her website.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
It was on the website.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
Then, well, then yes that's her. Your mom does amazing work.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
That's so nice. She just fries in a soho arc contract.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
She just won a prize for what for like the
best photograph for just the best. She's just the best.
I love it.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
She's been working a long time. I'm really proud of her.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
What does your dad do? Is your dad still with us?

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yes? He is a trained architect. He's retired but works
for me and my company.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
He works for mad Fine.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
He works for mad Fine. He does like spreadsheets and
some financial oversight.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
So he's not architecting for you, No, he could. He's
doing all the grunt work. Wow.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah. They actually just moved to the Upper West sid
in December to.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Retire from Watertown.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, after forty years.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
Now. Don't you have a sister.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
She lives in Dallas, Texas.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Does she have children?

Speaker 2 (10:11):
She has one. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
So here's what I'm hearing. Your parents like your children
better than your sister's kid. That's why they moved to
New York instead of doubt exactly.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
No, I think it's like New York better. I think
my sister would live in New York if she could.
In fact, I know she would.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Gotcha well, as a native Texan, I'm not offended. What
part of Texas I'm in San Antonio? Okay, cool, So
we're going to bounce all over the place when you
moved to New York at fifteen. Good God, you said
that moving to New York by yourself you suffered. Can
you tell me what that means?

Speaker 2 (10:49):
I struggle a lot in school before I left. I'm
dyslexic and ADHD, so just navigating life with a differently
wired brain was really tryingallenging, and then especially kind of
going through puberty and like social weirdness as I was
growing up was always really challenging, especially as a very
shy person, and I was depressed and anxious like as

(11:13):
a kid growing up through this time. So moving, you know,
without my parents to New York was a very risky move.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Why did you do it? Like you were shy and
you were Yeah, I'm assuming on the tenant side, that's
a bold, bold decision. What made you pull the trigger
on that? And also, listeners, this was because she got
a full ride scholarship to the School of American Ballet. Okay,
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
It's also a very precigious school, and my goal was
to dance with New York City Ballet, so being offered
a spot felt like something I couldn't refuse. In hindsight,
I probably needed another year at home just to mature.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
No way at fifteen you weren't just ready to take
on the biggest city a New world or America.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, it wasn't a boarding school. It's not like your
typical boarding school where there's like adults supervising you and
like standing in for parents. It's really like a place
to live so you can take your ballet classes and
academics kind of came secondary.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
This was a high school like fame. It was just no, no,
It's like, okay, so how did you do the high school?

Speaker 2 (12:23):
There was kind of two options of three LaGuardia High
School and then I went to Professional Children's School, which
is a small private school for people of your schedules.
Fun fact, my husband also went to PCs Professional Children's.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
School with you or separate from you.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
No, he's older than me, so he was.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
A what a coincidence?

Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, but like a lot of actors have gone their models,
professional dancers.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
People who have an unusual schedule. Yeah, was he working
at that time? Is that why he had to go
to that school?

Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yes, okay, he started working professionally around the same time
at like as.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
A young ladies and gentlemen. Her husband is Josh Charles.
He's a fantastic actor who you've seen in everything. Okay,
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
So the School of Professional Children's School was a few
blocks away, so we would do I believe morning school.
We'd do like a class or two in the morning,
and then we would like actually race back to take
ballet class at like ten ten thirty.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
When you say we, you weren't by yourself in this.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
No, there was a bunch of kids in the school
American ballet in my class, and we would go back
and forth between the schools. So we would have like
ballet classes like in the middle of the day, so
we would take a couple academic classes like physically, race
back like eat something like while you're running. And we
were so competitive in my class that we would like.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Run, but then you're tired by the time we get
to ballet class.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, we were so competitive that we wanted a good
spot by the teacher, by the mirror, so we would
like save spot. It was. We had a really nutty
class that was super competitive. It was really intense between
the girls and my roommates.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
So you did have a regular high school experience because
that's what girls that's how girls are. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Well, yeah, in terms of social stuff, my roommate was
not a fan. I was pretty weird, and she made
it known.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
Was she the same age as you were? All of
the students that you're talking about, were we're all all
around the same age? Yeah, just from everywhere, all over
the place. Nobody was from New York.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, she's from Wisconsin, I think there was. It's from
Pennsylvania from ballet school there. Everyone was like the best
at their home studios and they all came.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
Otherwise, you don't get into the School of American Ballet
if you're not the best.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
And not many people are chosen. So it's kind of like,
you know, being an Olympic athlete or something, so like
to get to that level, you have to be really good.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Oh, I've seen black swant.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
And also my daughter was in ballet, uh all the
way until the middle of college, so I got it.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Can be pretty intense, especially at this level, because everyone
wants to get into the New York City Ballet, which
is the school is a feeder school to New York
City Ballet, and they only take like a few girls
at the top level. So you can imagine how cutthrowy
it was. Sure was being like I can't wait to
finally be accepted by like my people, and I had
a rude awakening when I ride.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
So you went to New York and you were hoping.
One of the things you were looking for was to
find your people, and when you found your people, you
were like, these people suck.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
It was more like, these people are trying to block
the tea. There was this one girl name we called
the Wall because she would literally dance in front of
you to block the teacher's.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
View of you on purpose.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Uh huh. And people, it was really ruthless. That first
year was really hard. I wanted to come home. I
like ride to my parents' lab. We have payphones at
the time. I'd use like my calling card and like
cry to my parents on like the.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Payphone listeners a payphone. It just kidding, but a calling card, Okay,
just kidding. How come you didn't quit before you answered?
The reason I'm asking is because throughout the eight years
I've been doing this and all of the people that
I've talked to, one of the things that I've noticed
is that what separates the people who were successful in

(16:15):
whatever the field is from the people who aren't is
their level of quit. Now, a lot of people have
a lot of quit in them. But the people who
seem to be more successful for some reason, don't have
a lot of quit. So how come you didn't quit?
Why didn't you just give up? You're a kid.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, I could not agree with you more. I was
actually saying that to my son, who's really interested in
being a baseball player. He's only ten. But I think
the people who are successful aren't necessarily the most talented.
It's just the people who refuse to give up and
just keep going back even though they feel defeated. So
I definitely had a lot of gumption and determination.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Now, gumption is a word you don't hear in twenty
twenty five. That's talk into a ninety five year old
person who talks about gumption. That's awesome. Go ahead, yeah, hey,
street walkers, here's a word from our sponsors.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Let's get back into it. There's been all these moments
in my life where it was like, before I moved
to New York, I was like, well, I'm so depressed.
I was like I could either kill myself or move
to New York. There's been a lot of sort of
fork roads in my life and it's like I might
as well give it a try.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
So this was a literal thought that you had as
a fifteen year old.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
I was probably thirteen or fourteen, and I was really
depressed and lonely at the time. Yeah. I've had bouts
of depression my whole life, and that was a heavy one.
So I was like, I could either kill myself or
move to New York. So I was like, I might
as well give it a try, because when I kill myself,
I won't exist anymore.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
You can't do it in the other order. You can't
try New York. Second.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, and then at school, the crossroads was like I
could either go home, as you know, a failure with
my tail between my legs. I mean, I know, not
actually a failure. But I had a lot of coaches
and stuff who you know, to get to that point.
I worked with a lot of people who really believed
in me, and I and my family had sacrificed a

(18:20):
lot for me to be there, just tons of lessons,
ships to New York. It's like, you know, training an
Olympic athlete, the whole family has to kind of get
behind the kid. And it was expensive, like when shoes
were like eighty dollars a pair, you know, it's just
it was.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
A lot, and it's not like they last forever. You
go three points shoes like they're free, but they're not.
Oh my god, Oh my dad.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Would hands so my shoes for me and do my
hair and there was a lot.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
What a sweet dad he's he is.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Very so, he's very supportive. Both my parents are and
they believed in me. They were like, there's you know,
I mean, they didn't say it, but they always believe
that it was possible to do this, which is really
quite generous because most people's parents don't feel that way.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
You do not have to tell me.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, there was were like you know, why why not her?
You know, and I had you had gifts or whatever.
I'm getting sidetracked here. The fork in the road was
like again, you know, I could either leave my tail
between my legs or I could actually give it a try.
Because I didn't feel like I really was giving it everything.

(19:30):
I put a lot of things into black and white thinking.
So it was like, if I'm going to be here,
like I might like it's not gonna kill me, I
might as well put in a huge amount of effort
and see if it's possible, Like, let's just give it
a shot. So I decided with myself, I've had all
these like internal conversations, let's try, like, let's really try,
and if it doesn't pan out, that's okay, I can

(19:51):
still go home. So I started to really try, and
I immediately sprained my ankle. So so I was in
a cast at home for a summer, so depressed, I
mean especially as a dancer, like not being able to move.
But because of that, I discovered something called cross training,

(20:12):
which is now a normal part of training to be
an athlete and a ballet dancer. But it wasn't something
that i'd you know, done some plates gyratonics, physical therapy,
which is again maybe foreign language, but like a normal
part of training to be a professional dancer and maybe
the athlete. But the cross training I did, like this
person like trained Nancy Kerrigan, I believe named Igor Burdenko Russian.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
I was going to say you or Berdenko.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
And he had me running in my cast in a
pool and I would do all these like crazy exercises.
He put me on this like really specific like high
protein diet and I trained like I was training for
the Olympics in a cast, like in a pool, and
I got really strong, and when I returned to the school,
even though I hadn't been dancing, I was in really

(21:03):
good shape and I got the attention of the director
of the company. A girl in my class got moved
up a level. I did not get moved up. I
was again devastated. So all these moments of disappointment, but
I was still like, you know what, I'm here, I'm
gonna like give it a try, so I put in.
I was like, I'm just gonna rise to the top

(21:24):
of my class and make it a no brainer that
I will be chosen for the company. I came all
this way, so I was like, I'm not here to
make friends. I'm lonely right now. I had this term
which it was like a defense mechanism, calling like I
put myself on the shelf, which is probably a form
of disassociation, but like I put who I really was,

(21:44):
like my soft underbelly away for a little while, but
I knew she was still there so I could accomplish
this goal.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
So where did you get this, I'm gonna call it
a management takenique. Where did this come from? Where'd you
get this idea to put yourself on a show survival
like you just made it up. You didn't hear this
from someone.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Or I like mad everything. Yeah. I also developed pretty
intense anorexia in the process of this, not throughout my career,
but that year because the diet that EGO put me
on spiraled out of control. I don't know trigger warning
for people of like eating issues seriously, but I had
this really toxic voice in my head and I was

(22:26):
able to reverse the language. I actually had an intervention
at the school, Like I give the teachers there are
a lot of credit because I came back and I
had dropped so much weight that it weren'ted like a
serious intervention.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
So they actually sat you down. They were like listen here, kid.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
It cornered me in a room. Yeah, and it really
it worked. It scared me for myself, and I was
able to reverse that self talk and like gradually incorporate
bad foods back into my diet until I was able
to recover like on my own. They had me go
to a nutrition was pretty much useless. It was like, really,

(23:02):
like my internal thoughts have been like a very powerful
force throughout my career.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
In my life, there had to be you were lonely,
you didn't really have a whole lot of other people
to talk to. Yeah, okay, wow, well that sounds like
a horrific journey. But guess what, folks, That journey took
her to the actual New York City Ballet, which was
her dream. You danced professionally for the New York City

(23:27):
Corps de Ballet. Am I saying that? Right? That's three
from two thousand and one to two thousand and.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Nine, that's right.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, Now, without any specifics, does that pay? Well?

Speaker 2 (23:39):
It felt like a lot of money as a teen,
you know, I was professional at seventeen. But for the
amount of work we were doing, no, not at all,
And like the amount of dedication. I mean it's we
would be there twelve hours a day.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, it's it's all consuming.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, you can't do anything else. You can't even like
you know, I barely graduated high school because I was
working so much. It just it's completely consuming. Completely. I've
done a lot of therapy since then, and it's such
a beautiful craft and art form and life. You know,
you have a live orchestra like regularly who plays for you?

Speaker 1 (24:18):
They probably got paid better than you did. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
They probably don't get paid it off either. Honestly. I
mean these people train their entire lives. And the thing
with ballet, maybe like a musician, is like because it's
so consuming in order to be like that level of excellence,
you don't have time to be educated in other ways
and have other things that you know how to do.
So once your career ends, your options are really limited.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
So then where was that another crossroads for you? Did
you struggle greatly?

Speaker 2 (24:50):
So?

Speaker 1 (24:50):
Well, why'd you retire? So you're what twenty six, twenty
five when you retired?

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, well I dance in the core. Well, I had
a year apprenticeship and then danced in the court till
two thousand and nine. I was twenty five when they
let go ten percent of the company and I was
among that, which was pretty depressing and devastating.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
So where do you go from there? I mean, you're
at the top of your game. I mean, even though
they cut you, you're still at the top of your
industry because it doesn't get any higher in this country
than the New York City Ballet. Did you have thoughts
of going to some other ballets, I don't know, the
Boston Ballet or whatever, just San Antonio, Like, did you
have thoughts of going to a different ballet company.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
My ego was so crushed that I literally wanted nothing
to do with my body anymore, to be honest.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
Yeah, that's a dangerous place to be. And when at
thirteen you were having those thoughts.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, I'm still kind of like figuring out. I mean,
it's been a long time and I've been in a
lot of therapy, but I'm still sort of like piecing
together a relationship with my body since then. Because as
an artist, I'm sure you've talked to a bunch of
other people, especially performing artist who you are so wrapped
up in your.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Craft to your identity.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, and when your instrument is your body, it's like
kind of confusing. It's hard to like separate the two.
It's like, especially for dance, like you're asked to both
like control every muscle fiber and be so in your
body and control and just be so hyper aware of
where everything is at all times and disassociate from it
because it's your instrument and like not be too precious

(26:27):
about it. So like you have this really odd relationship
with your body as a dancer, and then afterwards it's like, well,
what do I do with this now? And especially since
I decided not to continue dancing because as an artist,
you know, you always have this little voice being like
maybe I'm not as good as I think I am,
or like I could only dance at this one place.

(26:48):
I was really devastated to be let go because it
felt like an affirmation that that little voice had been
right along, that maybe I really wasn't that good.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
I was an imposture.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, exactly. So I was really crushed. And my boss,
who's been since you know, outed for alleged sexual and
physical abuse, was my boss for a decade. So I
lived for a decade in a really toxic work environment
and because we worked such heavy hours. I'm now just

(27:21):
starting to deal with what it's like to leave that
and that self on a shelf, which served me for
a little while. Like I'm still like trying to like
reincorporate like my real self into my body, and like
it's taken a really long time.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
That self on the shelf. That shelf was in the
same room as you, So even though it was on
the shelf, it was still watching what was going on
with the rest of you. Yeah, taking it in. Oh wow, Okay,
So you retire from the vallet in two thousand and nine.
You're twenty five years old. When did you start writing
your book? Ladies and gentlemen. Sophie wrote a novel called

(27:58):
Butnheads in twenty eleven, which drew on her experience as
a ballet dancer. Now, Bunheads. I'm assuming this novel has
nothing to do with the TV show, right, it.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Does not, But the TV show probably boosted sales, So.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Thanks sales for you. Yeah, so your book, your book
came out before the show. Yes, Now, bunheads, I guess
is a popular colloquial term for ballet dancers. That's where
it comes from. Yeah, they actually changed the name of
that TV show to be Bunheads.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Did I tell you that? No? Yeah, it's true. The
script was called Strut until my novel went to ABC
Family because I was shopping it around and they were like, oh,
that's a good title, and they took the title, but
it wasn't I didn't have it copywritten or anything, and
my publisher wasn't able to see.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Her fascinating Thanks ABC Family, I know it. Thanks a
bunch of douches. Okay, So is that when you decided
to write this book at twenty five or was there
some time past. What did you do when you were retired?

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Great question. After I was informed that my contract wouldn't
be renewed, I was pissed and sad, and I, you know,
went directly to the press and he acted to a
magazine and did a long interview, and then I talked
to The New York Times a lot.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
So so you're pissed that they let you go and
you went straight to the magazines and reporters.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
What was your intent? Like, were you like, Hey, these
guys are dicks or were you like, oh, no, check
it out, anybody want to hire me?

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Like?

Speaker 1 (29:36):
What was the intent?

Speaker 2 (29:37):
Like?

Speaker 1 (29:37):
What were you saying in these interviews? What did you do?
What did you tell the New York Times?

Speaker 2 (29:43):
I mean, nothing that's relacious looking back, But it was
enough that, like, you know, I spoke honestly and in
my own voice, and I got the attention of an
editor at Little Brown because of my interview.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
So were you speaking about your boss or were you
speaking about the whole culture, the whole experience. What was
the conceit of the articles?

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Honestly, it's been so long, I was two thousand and nine,
but I think it was something like he Peter doesn't
even know who we are. There was a really like
when I say, there was a toxic work environment, like
the Court of Ballet, which is like you dance in
the shadows, you support the star, which is what my
novels about because there hasn't really been anything written about
that and the people who aren't in the spotlight. I

(30:24):
want to talk about that culture and the things that
we dealt with.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
So it's like the character actor version of Ballet.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah, totally. So I's on my whole career in the Court,
which was interesting but also really frustrating because I was
always trying to ascend and I wasn't able to and
it's a frustrating place to be in. I don't know
if I should talk about this or not, because we
could go down like a different road, or how much time.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
We have, you can just touch on it. We don't
have to explore it too deeply because there's some other
things I want to talk about.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah. One thing that held me back was my learning
disorder and my anxiety and ADHD. I had a lot
of trouble picking up choreography because we were taught sometimes
forty ballets in a season. If you can imagine like memorizing.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Forty separate ballet routines one year.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
We learned forty for an anniversary a year, but like
sometimes it would be a little less but a lot
of new material, especially in the court of ballet, and
you're expected to pick up choreography quickly in the way
that they teach it quickly is not a way that
I learn. I'm not a good audible learner. I had
to teach myself again, like relying on my brain, my

(31:34):
own way to learn choreography, which was like I would
rehearse before I fell asleep, Like what it was like
self hypnotized, Like I would like go through everything as
if I was doing it before I fell asleep, Like
all of everything I learned that day, so the next
day it would come back and feel more comfortable. But
like I was often like humiliated in the studio, like
forced to, you know, do the choreography on repetition in
front of other people just alone. It was very humiliating,

(31:57):
and it's like having a learning disorder forty see or anxiety,
Like for me, it was like these things were about
of mush together. I would kind of like freeze because
I was so anxious to be humiliated that I couldn't
take a new information. It was not something that was
acceptable at all.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
And so this was part of what you were talking
about in these interviews.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Which interview.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Sorry, I'm sorry, I like the New York Times, And.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
No I wasn't ready to talk about that now. Oh okay, yeah, No,
in the interviews, I was more like I was talking
more about me, the social hierarchy of like the court
of Ballet, not being able to associate with people of
higher rank, like I learned to like not make eye.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
Contact, shut your mouth.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yeah, it's like I'm in therapy. I talk about it
like a cult.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Honestly, it sounds like a cult.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
I've took a long time, like unlearned a lot of things,
and I saw a lot of weird. I I've always
been like a little weird socially, but I think a
lot of it was made worse or reiterated in the
in the ballet because of the strange environment I lived
in for so long.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Okay, well, I'm so sorry about all of that trauma
and that this sounds rough.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
Hey, street walkers, here's a word from our sponsors warning.

Speaker 3 (33:13):
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(33:33):
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Speaker 1 (33:51):
Spoiler alert, it is, let's get back into it. In
twenty thirteen, you earned a BA from Columbia University. That
was a big year. That's the year you got married too.
Why did you decide to go to university?

Speaker 2 (34:10):
So? I did one class a semester when I was
at Fordham University after being in the Corps for a
few years. You know, college is very challenging with that
kind of schedule. We had Mondays off so I could
take a Monday class. It was challenging to do the
homework because we worked twelve hours a day. But I
had a philosophy teacher who sometimes people always say like

(34:30):
it takes just one teacher. She said one thing to
me and it stuck, which was that I deserve to
have an education, that I'm smart and like growing up
with these learning issues. I never felt that way and
no one had ever talked to me that way before. No,
my education had never been something that was prioritized in
my life because I had these you know, gifts as
a young child. So education was kind of like, oh,

(34:51):
let's get this over with. And she was the only
person who was like, you deserve this, and it stuck
with me. So I decided, after getting canned or like,
to be able to jouk about it now, but that
I I kind of had two paths. I was like again, one,
I was like, well, I could resurrect my eating disorder

(35:14):
and start modeling. I had a little bit of modeling experience,
and that was literally a path that I considered I
was like, I could be interrectick again and try, you know,
to be like a model, you know, using my looks
and my body again. Or I could like do the
suggestion that this teacher had a few years ago and
actually like give myself to an education. And I decided

(35:35):
to go that path one. My parents were supportive. They're
advocates of higher education, and my sister's husband had gone
to Columbia University and talk so highly of it, and I,
you know, don't test well. I've had these learning issues.
But I decided to again, like I have this I

(35:56):
don't know really where it comes from, delusion, aiming for
more than I think I can actually achieve.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Well, that's part of the quit that I talked to
about earlier, Like you just don't have that in you.
You're just like, okay, well that was the thing. So
where can I focus my energy? Because I can't quit
because that's just I don't know what that means. So
I have to you just turn to your vehicle in
a different direction. I think, Yeah, Well, to.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Quit or not to quit was more like, oh, I
can always quit later, but I can only try now.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
It's kind of like going home, right, I'll always have
home to go to, just not yet.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, I honestly think a lot of philosophy comes from
the fact that I don't believe in God, and I
didn't as a kid.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
And like that's weird for somebody to say, who has
a prayer tattooed on their own?

Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah, but that's the thing about Judaism is like they'll
take anybody never accepting. So yeah, like being like, okay,
like one day I won't exist, I might as well
try my best now while I'm here, you know. So
that's kind of been a theme in my life since
I was really young. Yeah, so I was like, well,
I might as well apply and see, you know. I
got like like okay on the SATs, not very well,

(37:04):
but I could write and I had a great interview.
They were interested, probably because I was in New York
City ballet. I applied to General Studies and they liked
people at the school within Columbia. You take all the
classes everybody else, but they like people have been in
the military, have had careers and then returned to school.

(37:24):
So I applied to that school and I got in,
and I was shocked and so flattered that they wanted me,
And that was actually I got in before I was
let go, which I'm curious maybe that was one of
the reasons that I was let oh, because they felt
like I would be like okay or something. So yeah,
I thought I would be a philosophy major, maybe because

(37:45):
of that teacher who had been encouraging a couple of
years earlier. I took one philosophy course and was like,
oh what. I was so confused. I was like, mathey,
I didn't understand at all, and I had again, one
great literature professor is actually a law professor who taught
a class about I want to say, death by drowning,

(38:06):
and like, we read Moby Dick, and I learned for
the first time that if you read well, if you
learn to analyze literature, you have sociology, psychology, philosophy. You
can learn all that things from reading closely. And that
felt like a revelation to me. I kind of went
into Glumba being like, oh, I dance in New York
City ballet, like I got this, Like I traveled the world.

(38:29):
I have like a little bit of an ego coming
from this prestigious place. And as soon as you know,
very quickly, I was like, oh, like I don't know
anything about the world.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
Shit, yeah, yeah, there's a lot to learn, and like,
these people are really smart and younger than me, so
it was really humbling, but I was I had to
change my attitude really quickly.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
But you did, and then you graduated and now you're awesome. Yeah,
well you were always awesome.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
But I never felt better about myself than at Columbia.
I know it's a weird place maybe now, but it
just like my mind, my eyes were open, and I
learned how to get better at going to school. I
learned how to write there, well, not from the creative
writing courses, but by becoming a good reader and by
learning how to analyze literature.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
Well once again eleven the novel, butN heeads it's everywhere
people can get it? Is there a specific place you
recommend people to go get it? Because I want people
to check out this.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
I mean, independent booksellers are always great to support. Plus
you've probably got a good deal. But it's available like
Barnes and Nobles and Amazon.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
Also so Butnheads by Sophie Flack twenty eleven, Just real quick,
can you tell everybody what the book is about? Like,
get me excited about reading this book?

Speaker 2 (39:52):
It's about a girl.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Or pretend I'm a girl.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, a girl named Hannah who is in the quarter
of ballet of a man Hattan ballet company, and it
focuses on her decision to like go for a soloist
spot or it deals with the tension that I felt
as like a thinly veiled memoir of like do I
want to develop myself as a human or ascend in

(40:18):
my career? And that felt like a constant kind of
conflict as I when I was in the core. And
there's a love triangle that's fun. But I'm proud that
the novel is not actually oriented around a heteronormative relationship,
Like in the end, she decides to make a decision
that doesn't actually is not led by her relationship with
a man Got you, which is not always teen novels.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
So this is a teen novel, you would.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Say, Okay, yes, it's it's young adult.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
All right, great, okay, now, thank you for that. We're
going to talk about jewelry, as you know, and the
street walker should know how I stumbled upon you, Sophie is.
I was speaking with a friend of yours, Yuel Vasquez,
and I was speaking to him about a week before
his twenty third anniversary, and I asked him what he

(41:09):
got his wife. I'm sure you heard the clip. He
explained that he got a necklace from you. And he
told me just a little bit about your jewelry line,
and it sounded super dope, and that's why I reached out.
So tell me how a professional ballerina turned novel author.
And you also write for other publications every once in

(41:31):
a while, Wall Street Journal or whatever, all the things.
What makes you decide to start a jewelry company and win?

Speaker 2 (41:39):
First of all, I would say, out of all my
husband's friends, I think I'm most similar to Yule.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
You can say you're friends to y'all are friends too.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
He's my friend too. I met him husband, to be fair,
they've been friends a long time. I think we're most similar,
probably because we have these other interests in addition to
like our primary careers, Like he was a musician for
a really long time, he's a photographer, And I also
have these like other like a toolbox of creative realms

(42:10):
that I like to dabble in, and he's a lot
like that too. And we also, you know, have dealt
with like mental health stuff, and we're open about talking
about that.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Plus proximity right, he lives in New York. He lived
in New York.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
My neighbor I'm in my office that I live right
by her, and Linda's lovely. I love her so much.
She's a good friend. So jewelry. I was introduced to
the Diamond District here on forty seventh Street through a
friend who's mostly an antique dealer, and she during the
pandemics at designing some jewelry. And I've always enjoyed jewelry.

(42:41):
My Grandma's very glamorous, and I've always sort of been
attracted to it. It's never something I really considered, but
when she introduced me to her bench jeweler on forty
seventh Street, I had never kind of like crossed that threshold.
I don't know if you've ever been to the Diamond
District here or Diamond District, but the one in New

(43:02):
York is really bizarre because it feels like a real
stage set and you walk like behind this facade jewelry
forms of diamonds, and you go to the into these
like industrial buildings and up in the elevator and there
are these people working with high metal and diamonds who
are so good at what they do, and there are

(43:23):
like a lot of immigrant families, and there's this whole
culture that's like hidden behind this facade. And I was
really curious. This was like in my backyard and I
didn't even know it was there. But in the city
a really.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Long time write book.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, it's a really interesting place and the people are
really fascinating. And my jeweler actually used to be a
physician in his country, but can't practice medicine here. You know,
sometimes they use a microscope like setting diamonds that can
be like similar to surgery. It's probably like child's play
compared to what he did in his country. And he's
really good at it, and he has a whole team

(43:57):
and is a family run business. And I was sort
of like enchanted by this whole weird world. So that's
what I fell into it. And I asked my friend
for so many I kept wanting to like tweak things
that I had, and she got annoyed, so she was
just like, just go on your own. And I started
casting objects that I found in my bag, including a

(44:18):
xanax and a Kalana pin.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
You wait, so you started casting them yourself, Like you
started dabbling in the actually.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
Oh, sorry to be clear, I gave them to the
jeweler and was like.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Kick past these, what were you casting.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
A xanax and a Kalana pin, which I care for
me as I.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
Sometimes have anxiety.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
Sure, yeah, And they came out so well and like
it looked so close to the real thing, and we're
relatively shockingly somewhat affordable even though they were solid gold,
because they were quite small. I set them on a
chain and started wearing them. And I had a friend
who wanted that necklace, and I had another friend who
was like, I think you're onto something here.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
So this necklace all that had on it, it's the
klonipin in as NX.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah. It kind of set like you know the I mean,
I don't know why you know this, but like Tiffany's
has diamonds by the yard necklaces. So they were set
sort of like classic way, except they were pills.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Oh so it wasn't just one of each, it was multiple.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
No, it was one of each, And I set them
kind of on the side in the sort of like
subtle way. But like if you take those sometimes it
was like if you know, you know, kind of a
thing that they were like subtle, but if you like reckon,
I be like, oh, I take that. And then when
Roe was overturned, I realized I could cast the abortion
pills in gold and maybe work with a nonprofit and

(45:38):
like give some money back to actually funding abortions and
travel for people who can't access it.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Okay, about that. So, for all intents and purposes, you're
casting an image of a product that already exists, right,
You're doing an image of a real product. Did you
have to get permission or is there a copyright on? Like?
How does that work?

Speaker 2 (45:57):
I worked with an IP lawyer multiple times to kind
of vet what I was doing, because obviously I can't
afford to be sued by pharmaceutical company.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
Sure or murdered or whatever it is that they do. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
So he felt like, because I'm not selling these objects,
to consume that they fall under artistic license in the
First Amendment, and that people have done this enough and
that lawyers have won enough cases that the risk is
very low.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
Okay, And you.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Could actually argue that I'm helping them because I'm trying
to send a positive message.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
You're advertising, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Okay, So yeah, one thought is actually to approach pharmaceutceutical
companies and be like, hey, like I'm helping you guys,
do you want these for like corporate gifts or something.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
So you didn't so much go into it, like with
the lawyer, to be like Okay, let's go make sure
this is cool with people. You just kind of went
from it like I checked the laws and I'm okay, right,
Like you weren't asking for mission, you were just making
sure you were covered.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Yeah, I just didn't want to get sued.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
Okay. So what was the reaction? You said some of
your friends were like, hey, that's dope as hell.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
I had a friend five one for a gift for someone,
and then someone else who's running another small business, called
Anya for postpartum care. She was like, I really feel
like people are going to want these.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Did you just make some for yourself at first?

Speaker 2 (47:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (47:19):
And then kind of people were like, hey, I want
I want some of that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
So I started with those, and because Roe was overturned,
I was really motivated to do something more purposeful than
dos ax and klonopin, and I reached out to a
number of nonprofits and asked if they'd want to partner
with me. I donate a part of the proceeds. So
I found the Nationalwork of Abortion Funds and I've partnered
with them ever since, and I gave a portion of
sales from those pieces to their organization on the back

(47:46):
end of my shopify. I spent like a year researching
how to make gemstones look like mental health pharmaceuticals like Prozac.
I wanted them to be. I didn't want to do
everything in gold for all goals expensive and it's heavy. Sure,
so I realized I was to start working in stone
and the stone guys in the Diamond district. I wasn't

(48:09):
happy with the result. I wanted them to look manufactured
like actual pills. So I ended up finding a vendor
in Jaipur who I worked very closely with, and they
use a machine called a CNC machine, which is typically
used to carve like wood and stone for furniture, but
they use it on the small scale for these little pills.
They look amazing in person. I try to do them

(48:31):
justice on the website, but they really look like I
replicate the colors and the scale and either even engraved
with like the lettering of like prozac. I partnered with
the Fountainhouse, which is an organization in New York that
supports people living with serious mental illness. I've done a
bunch of things with them. They're wonderful organization, and donate
a part of those proceeds to that organization. And so

(48:53):
I sort of built the company like collection by collection
over time like this, partnering with different nonprofits.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
So each collection has a separate nonprofit that you're donating
part of the proceedge too.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Not every collection, but a lot of the collections. I
decided to actually rebrand maybe like six months ago. I
had called the company Simper Augustus, which is a bit
of a mouthful. I had a lower end brand called
mad Fine. I merged the two, so now the brand
is just called mad Fine.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Is Simper Augustus a tulip?

Speaker 2 (49:28):
It is? It's a rare Dutch tulip that caused tulip
mania in the seventeen hundreds.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Why did you decide to name your company after a
crazy tulip?

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Because I really the story behind the tuil really resonated
with me personally. The story is that, like they didn't
know how to replicate this tulip that became so valuable
that a bulb once sold for like more than a
house or plot of land. The value if it was
so high. And recently they discovered that the thing that
made this tulip so beautiful and I should say is

(50:01):
white sort of streaked with red like blood they're really striking,
was actually a virus that was killing the tulip and
decimating other flower populations. But the tulip is so robust
that it just stripped the color from the leaves. And
as someone who's been through it, that story really resonated
with me, and like, the things that are challenging for

(50:21):
us also sometimes give us great gifts and make us
more beautiful.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Oh that's a great story. So then a few months ago,
as we record this, you decided to change the name
to mad Fine. Why did you change the name and
why did you settle on mad Fine?

Speaker 2 (50:35):
The company was always called mad Fine Jewelry, and I
had like doing business as Semper Augustus, and then I
had my lower end brand called mad Fine. I wanted
to separate the lower end which was plated.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
So is mad Fine like Alex and Anni or was
it is.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
That plated like this was a lower price.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Point like kinder Scott. Maybe it was kind of.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Like market research like I wanted to see, like I've
never done this before, you know, like I wanted to
kind of like test out, like what kind of company
I wanted to have. So I sort of did too,
you know, like one lower end, one higher end, to
see what people gravitated towards. And it turns out that
actually making like for my lifestyle, I have two young kids,

(51:18):
I have other interests, making handmade jewelry made to order
was a better fit for me and my lifestyle than
like ordering in bulk from overseas. And also ethically it
matched a lot better with the purpose of my company.
So that's the direction that I decided to go in.
And Mad fine, I feel like works with the ethos

(51:42):
of the company because it started because I was mad,
but also like mad, you know, reclaiming the word mad
from like crazy, yeah, and trying to normalize like mental
health issues by putting them on your person.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
My wife has been a Masters prepared sech nurse for
longer than I am allowed to say on a microphone. Wow,
that's so yeah. So that's all of that kind of
strikes you know that hits home.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Here, Hey street walkers, here's a word from our sponsors.
Let's get back into it.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
You mentioned, you know, converting this to mad fine and
kind of doing things a little more locally. It serves
the purpose of your company. Tell me what is the purpose?
What is the mission of your company?

Speaker 2 (52:32):
The jewelry is for people who go to the beat
of their own drum, and it's about transparency, like living
more transparently about your beliefs. I realize it's jewelry, their accessories,
but I also feel like they can be purposeful and
shifting things socially a little bit, like if we all
wear the things that we're taking, if we're able to

(52:54):
laugh at ourselves a little bit and sort of like
own our beliefs and who we are, then maybe we
could like move the needle just a little bit towards
like a more socially.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Just world, kind of in the vein of a destigmatization. Yeah, okay,
that said earlier, we talked about that when you were younger,
you had some thoughts around maybe not being here anymore.
Do you have any of your pieces that are helping
to destigmatize that particular feeling because lots of people have it,

(53:28):
but again, nobody talks about it because it's you know,
taboo or whatever. And like, no dig on you. You
were just doing it to be protective. But even when
you started to tell that story, you said, you know,
maybe put a disclaimer or maybe you cut this out
or whatever, because again you felt like that was going
to be stigmatized. So even to someone who's working on destigmatization,

(53:49):
sharing that bit felt stigmatized. So is there any pieces
of your jewelry that are going to work on that
particular aspect?

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Great question. I did work with a company called Social
Goods and created a piece for them for a nonprofit
called the Jed Foundation. I was actually inspired, I should
also say, by this company called Social Goods, who does
something similar to what I'm doing with T shirts and
apparel hats and donates a part of the proceeds. So

(54:19):
like that model was a huge inspiration in the formation
of my companies, and we've partnered together. Their kids are
actually at my daughter's school, so we've become friendly, but
not in my company. I don't have anything anti suicide
suicide prevention specific yea, yet I'm open to it. I
now call the Mental Health Collection. I've renamed it emotional

(54:41):
Baggage because I've ate I've added new objects in addition,
to like the pharmaceuticals because I felt like there was
more to who we are besides the pills that we take,
and I wasn't able to fully express that with the
like narrow scope of semper Augustus. Now I have little
mini suitcases for emotional.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Bag Those are the dopest I love those so much.
To tell me about these little dope ass suitcases, these
cool baggages, tell me about this baggage.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
So the idea is, like all of the things that
I've created, I feel like the meaning is so significant
behind them, Like there's been pill jewelry, but like not
this specific with the messaging, like this is the pill
that I take in private, and like I'm not ashamed
to take it, and it allows other people to maybe
be explore medication as part of a mental health plan

(55:33):
or for someone to recognize it. And it's really like
an uncanny, kind of surprising and almost funny experience for
people to like see this like very private moment out there.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Definitely a conversation starter, Yeah, if you want.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
It to be. It's really like if you know you know.
So I like that the pieces are like that, they're
kind of like a quiet revolution that you can wear
and the suitcase is called the emotional baggage locket, and
you can ingrade it with your own emotional baggage. So
the one I have says gifted and talented because I

(56:07):
was at the height of my career at age twelve
and it was all like downhill from there. I was
called a prodigy on like TV. That's a hard thing
to live up to.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Are you engraving these messages on the inside, because it
does open like a suitcase on the inside or the
outside on the outside so that everybody can see it.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
So everybody can see it and you I personally keep
my Xanax in mine.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Are you serious? Yeah, it's big enough to hold a pill.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Oh yeah, I take zero point five, so I actually
fit six xanax.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
How big is this locket?

Speaker 2 (56:41):
It's actually like I'd have to look it up, but
it's it's.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Like a half inch or something.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
Yeah, at least.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
Maybe even a whole inch. Wow, that's crazy, Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
You could put like a little reminder in there, or
dry flower. Yeah, it holds, it holds stuff, or a mint.
You could put a breath mint. You could have like
daddy issues. You could be funny with it too.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Yeah, Daddy issues are hilarious.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
Yeah, so fun. And then I have like a little
basket not for a picnic, but for basket case. So
that's what I mean by like tongue in cheek pendance
that I like added to the mental health collections. Now
the whole collection is called Emotional Baggage.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
There's another piece I want to talk about, which might
be the coolest piece of jewelia I've ever seen in
my life. Wow, you have a mix tape. I don't
know if it comes with it or if it's a
separate piece, but people listening who don't know what a
cassette tape is. First of all, God bless you. Second
of all, sometimes the tape would come out of the

(57:38):
cassette and you would have to get it back in there.
And the way you would do it was you would
stick a pencil in there because it's hexagonal shape, and
it would catch onto those little grooves and it would spin,
so you could roll the tape back in. You have
a pencil that actually sticks in there and it actually turns,
Like what is happening? Are those two pieces together or separate?
And why I a mixtape?

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Yeah? I love that piece too.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
It is so cool. Looking.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
Yeah. So the spools on the mixtape are actually ten
K yellow gold, and the cassette tape is silver, and
the pencil is also mixed metal. It's so cute in person.
They come as a set. Yeah, the pencil comes with it,
so you can turn it the spools and it's very satisfying.
It's like kind of a textile experience.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Sure, it's like a fidget spinner. Yeah, it kind of
is a gorgeous, gorgeous fidget spinner.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Yeah. I actually made one for a Tailor swift. I'm
still waiting for her to wear it.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Out for the paps, for the paps. What's the paps paparazzi?
Oh did she receive it, like you know for a
fact she has it.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Oh yeah, my husband was in a music video, so
it has some relationship with her.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Okay, so you were able to make sure she got it.
That's cool.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Yeah, But for hers we had Tailor's mix. But you
could put anything that you want on it, which is
like good for a gift or for yourself, something personal,
or your favorite song or your favorite album. We offer
free engraving on those, and then I don't know if
you had a chance to look at the Awards Ceremony.
So the cassette tape is part of a collection called

(59:15):
the Time Capsule, which is like hearkens back to my childhood.
We also have the Ouiji board and slider in that collection,
and an analog phone, and then I have another collection
called the Award Ceremony, and I have like teeny tiny trophies,
well trophies of various size that just came out with
like a micro mini trophy, which I think are really

(59:37):
funny on a ring and also on a necklace and
ribbons also, and everything is kind of supposed to be
like tongue in cheek, like they're like silver trophies and
you can have it engraved with anything. But I have
like second place on it, which is just really funny.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
I think you have one that says like I'm just
okay or something like that, yeah, ok.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Yeah, good enough. And essentially for someone who you know
is recovering from perfectionism, it's like, I think it's more
to take the piece about ourselves.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
I'm pretty meh.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Yeah, good enough, not mad, tried really hard.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
You did sort of casually mention that you made a
piece for Taylor. You have also made pieces for Julius Stiles,
Busy Phillips, Amanda saff Reed, just In Throw, Jessica Alba,
and just a ton of other people. Oh and I
know you made pieces for your husband because he likes
to model them, but like with his hand over his face. Yeah,

(01:00:34):
what are the price points for some of these pieces? Like,
I mean, we've talked about your jewelry and at the
beginning there was a high end and kind of a
lower rit and that's sort of all merged into one brand.
But what is something like that, Like, what are these
price ranges? Are we talking Tiffany's where there's like multiple
commas in these things, or is this something everybody can afford? Like,
tell me what's the price point? What's the price range?

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
I'm glad you asked, because we actually have a summer
clearance going on right now, twenty five percent off so
like pieces, So if you're gonna if you're curious, now
it's the time to shop. But I've started making more
pieces in sterling silver. It's significantly less than gold.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Obviously, plus it just looks cooler. I'm just saying, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
And experimenting with mixed metal again keep the price point down.
But also I just think they're really interesting dynamic pieces.
Gold's like crazy expensive right now, and I don't want
to sell my customer.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
Sure, and I know absolutely nothing about anything, but I
would imagine that silver is easier to show detail on
because you can work with the patina and the not silver,
like you kind of work in the shadows better than
you can with gold. I feel like I've actually.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
Never thought of that before. But you can oxidize silver,
which is interesting. I mean a piece for you who's
on your show that's oxidized silver, which means that you
kind of blacken it and then we like stand it
off some of the oxiden ox.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
So I got oxidization cheese. I can't do it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Either, which is a really cool e fact. So there
are different things that you can do with silver, but
I haven't done that with my own jewelry. I'm more
interested in like mixing metals, like for the ribbon pendant,
for the cassette tape.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Even the emotional baggage. Right, the bucals are gold, right
or something?

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, the corners are corner. So I started
working with ten k and sterling silver more when the
price of gold shot up. The great thing about these medals.
Is it's still like heirloom quality for a lower price
point fourteen k I also offer, but obviously those prices
are higher. I don't want to price people out. And

(01:02:35):
then I have a few pieces that I kept from
the original Mad Fine because I worked with a great
nonprofit called Women for Women International, and they have a
series of pieces for their she DearS campaign and I
give a chunk of those proceeds to them, So I
kept that from the last site, and those are I
think seventy five bucks.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
Gotcha? We mentioned a couple of times and you're clean.
Sale is on selected items? Is that? How long is
that lasting?

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
It's gonna be for a few months.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Okay. Where can people go to check out this jewelry line? Yeah,
besides Yule's House.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Yeah, on Yule and on Josh Charles.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
And I'm Linda and I'm Linda exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
It's www dot Madfine Dot Shop.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
Oh that's easy, Madfine Dot Shop.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Okay. We talked about your ballet. We talked about the
book again. Button Hits. Everybody go check that out. It's
available everywhere. Is there an audio version of Buttonheads? No?

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
I really should do one with you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
What do you don't have enough on your plate.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Going on. I'll reach oalk to my ancient pronto.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
This just occurred to me right now, and you can
throw this in the garbage as soon as I say it.
But your friend Linda Larkin has a very memorable voice.
Maybe she would be into doing something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
She tothully would do that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Yeah, it just sounds like a really cool idea for
the two of you to work on together.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Oh, it'd be so cool. I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Yeah, Yeah, that'd be dope. How much of your day
is spent working on this jewelry line? I know that
you're not sitting there making it yourself, but you know
you do have to travel into the districts and have
these things designed and then you know whatever, all all
of the things. How much of your time is consumed with?
Matt fine, I know you have two little kids and
a husband and all these other things that you're doing. Yeah,

(01:04:31):
how consumed are you by this?

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
I go to the diamond district too, So I have
two vendors that I work very closely with and a
photographer who separate.

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
Why isn't your mom your photographer? She lives in New York.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Now, jewelry is like really hard to light.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
Actually, yeah, I would imagine.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Yeah, So my photographer actually has a PhD. And he's
a physicist, and you like developed as like robot or
he has a robot system.

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
So your jeweler is a surgeon and your photographer is.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
A physics Yeah, isn't that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
Oh, and your your bookkeeper is an architect. This is fantastic, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
So I'm going to go to my physicist photographer actually
right after this, to go pick up my latest grave
suitcase that I just got photographed. I go pretty much
every day, like during the week. I use I have
this little office where I keep on my boxes and
I do drawing in it and my packaging and printing
the labels, and I take my meetings here and stuff
in the Nomad neighborhood and the Diamondstrict's on forty seventh Street.

(01:05:37):
It's a nice little triangle. So my photographer is kind
of like on the way up to the Diamond District,
I could take the bus or the subway, and the
Dime districts at forty seventh Street, and I have two
stops in the same building. I work closely with a
CAD designer named Max Is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
He like an astronaut, or he works with plutonium super instrumental.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
He's a Russian man and his wife he probably yeah,
he probably was a rocket scientist at some point. He's
a young guy. He's like building his own family business,
and he's so smart and like these people are so
hard working. So I sit down and I sometimes bring
a drawing or an inspiration photograph with my measurements, sometimes

(01:06:18):
if there's a stone involved, and we work closely across
he's a tea tiny office of this little table together
and have a conversation. We often follow up with WhatsApp.
The jeweler who actually fabricates the pieces is directly upstairs
from him. They now have their own casting as well.
I get the findings, which means like the clasps and
the little rings and stuff. And if I want to

(01:06:39):
get chain, there's a place I can go just downstairs
from that. I can also order from this place in
Rhode Island. I met this guy. It took a minute,
like two years to find the right people. Sure, like
any new industry, it takes little time and a lot
of conversations and humility and being kind of like find

(01:07:00):
your way around. I'm so grateful for this little team.
I just like it wouldn't be possible without them. I'm
very reliant.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
It took a long time, but one of your goals
in moving to New York City twenty five years ago
is to find your people. Yeah, and you found your people.
It took a while, like you found your people. So
the answer to the question of how much of your
time is consumed by this is a lot. You're very
hands on with this.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Yeah, I do a fair amount of schlepping. I have
a friend, Alex, who's thinking about entering the fine Jewelry space,
and I've been sort of mentoring her. I'm trying to
be I just try to this a lot, like be
the person who I wish that I'd had at different
points in my life. So I'm kind of making introductions
and giving her some, you know, advice, And the latest

(01:07:49):
advice is, actually, the diamonds can be a bit of
a sinkhole, like a time sinkhole and an energy sinkhole
if you spend to much time there. So I was
like texting her, like, Alex, get out because it's something
about it. It's like so alluring and it's like you
could spend your whole day kind of exploring, but you
kind of have to like stay on task and like

(01:08:09):
do the thing, like meet with the person you need
to and then like move on with your day.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Is your jewelry line? Is it considered fine jewelry? Is
that a term? Did we use?

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
I'm relatively new to the jewelry industry, so I'm not
an expert on it yet. I'm not sure. I think
technically fine might be like fourteen and eighteen and then
under that is not considered fine. But like David Yerman
and Tiffany's use silver, so I think I consider it fine.

Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
All right? Cool? That does answer my question, Sophie. I
can't believe that I took up so much of your day.
I appreciate you. Sophie Flack, author of the twenty eleven
novel butt Heads, also a retired New York City ballerina.
What and the creator of Mad Fine Fine Jewelry. Is

(01:09:04):
that where the find comes from? Or was the fine?
I'm fine nice? So everybody go check out Madfine dot shop?
Is that right?

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
And check out some of her dope pieces. I'm telling you, guys,
you're gonna fall in love with this cassette tape that
comes with a pencil. It is the sickest piece of
jewelry I've ever seen. It is so cool. Everybody go
check that out. Also check out for sure the emotional
baggage and the neurodivergent lines, which are some of those

(01:09:36):
pills that we had talked about before. There's your word
ceremony line, just all the things. Go check out all
the things. Let's maybe help destigmatize some of these things
that people are dealing with. And also most of these
lines that are based on something that needs to be destigmatized,
they benefit these causes. She donates a portion of each
piece to various related organizations. So go check her out

(01:10:01):
and give a little bit of some support to not
only Sophie obviously because she's doing the Lord's work, but
it also helps, like I said, support some of these
other foundations. So go check thus out. Definitely, where can
people follow you on social media?

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Sophie shop mad Fine, and.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
Also what about you personally.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
I'm just Sophie Flack, So.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
Everybody go check out Sophie and mad Fine everywhere on
the social media's and like her posts. And also when
she posts about this episode, definitely like that and comment
that you thought it was a Dope episode. Sophie, I
can't believe that I took up so much of your time,
and I really really appreciate the time that you took.

(01:10:46):
It was such a blasketting to know you before I
let you go. Is there anything we didn't talk about
her I didn't ask you about that you specifically wanted
to talk about today.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
That's a great question. I think we did it. We
covered a lot. I feel like I can skip therapy
this week.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
Actually, all right, you are welcome.

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
He's great. Thank you so much for having me on
This is fun.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
Was on number sent my pleasure. Make sure you don't
forget to reach out to Linda and be like, hey,
I love that you want to do a thing. Yeah,
because you know she's good at that voicing like it
was a hit and I mean, this is a thirteen
year old book. Yeah, maybe it'll bring it back into
the Hey, breathe some new life in it, just like
the TV show did.

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
Yeah, that's a great idea.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
Sophie Flack. Sophie Charles, thank you so much for taking
the time out of your busy day and your hectic
running around the New York City Diamond District to hang
out and let us get to know you a little
bit better on Fascination Street. I really really appreciate it.
Thank you, Steve, and you have a great rest of
your week to Thanks for having me. Oh it was

(01:11:53):
all my pleasure. Thank you so much, Thank you so much. No,
thank you so much, No, thank you so much. You
have a great issue to day, and it really was
a pleasure heavy.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
Bye bye. Opening music is the song FSP theme, written,
performed and provided by Ambush Vin. Closing music is from
the song say My Name off the twenty twenty one

(01:12:31):
album Underdog Anthems, used with permission from Jack's Hollow. If
you like the show, tell a friend, subscribe and rate
and review the show on iTunes and wherever else you
download podcasts. Don't forget to subscribe to my YouTube channel.
All the episodes are available there as well. Check me

(01:12:52):
out on vero at Fascination Street Pod and TikTok at
Fascination Street Pod. And again thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
M

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Sophie Flack - Ballerina (NYC Ballet) / Author (Bunheads) / Jewelry Designer (Mad Fine)

Episode Transcript

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Sophie Flack - Ballerina (NYC Ballet) / Author (Bunheads) / Jewelry Designer (Mad Fine)